Hell is other people. ~ Jean-Paul Sartre
So, at least hell is pretty real... And not going away!
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Hell is other people. ~ Jean-Paul Sartre
So, at least hell is pretty real... And not going away!
A codicil to that - Hell is other people's children!
Hell is a figurative domain, and when you burst into anger or try to annihilate someone to fortify your realm by subjecting others you think you are in a cloud nine pushing your adversary downwardly in a hellish state. You singly embody hell at times when the burning fire within you makes every morale melt
I've always liked that one. If you look at Hell as Paul and I have been looking at it - people who live hell on earth, then it is literally true as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
________________________________________
I found a nice conundrum for the believers in a literal hell where people's "souls" go:
I am divorced and remarried, with one child by my ex-wife and three with the current one.
Who gets to live where?
The question arose after this article.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-1949399.html EDIT - this link didn't work for me but the original one does.
which questions the christian idea of heaven as held by many Christian and also Muslim people. it questions the origin of the idea - which it claims is derived from the Judiac tradition. The sceptical and sarcastic tone aside, it does raise interesting questions.
I think it's difficult to use words like fact when what is being considered is a question of faith.
Well, I don't know about anyone else but I'd say that analysis was rigorously argued from an initial position of unimpeachable neutrality, and it's difficult to see how any reasonable person could disagree with the conclusions reached.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
So the non-believer who dedicates their life to helping others, who practices love and compassion, who is a good parent, neighbour and friend, who strives for moral consistency, is there no place in the Lord's kingdom for him or her?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
The origin of the idea of Heaven is the Bible. Anyone who does not believe in the Bible will disagree with me here, but as a Christian, I believe that the Bible was inspired by God (or God-breathed as it is often said). God inspired the writers of the Bible, having them write down what He wishes, but still keeping their unique writing style, etc. But the important part here is that if God inspired the authors of the Bible, then Heaven is not a man-made idea, it is something revealed to us from God through the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I, also, see it difficult how any reasonable person could disagree with the conclusions reached.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God” (Psalm 14:1).
All these things are traits of true Christians, even though non-believers can also be similar in many ways. There is a common belief today that one can get into Heaven by being good people and doing nice things. At the core if this idea is an incorrect understanding of what Heaven is. Heaven is the dwelling place of God, but also what will be the New Earth after the End Times. Heaven is a place for believers to be with their God, not for unbelievers to be with someone they rejected. Where is the logic in going to a Heaven you do not believe in and being with a God you rejected all your life? The greatest sin of all is unbelief in God. Actually, this is the only sin that is unforgivable.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsmith
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6).
God can forgive any sin and allow you entrance to Heaven if you confess and place your trust in Jesus Christ as savior. But except through Jesus, there is no way to Heaven. At the second part of this issue there is the misunderstanding that we can make ourselves righteous and worthy of entering Heaven.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).
... he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).
Our own deeds and works can not save us, only by grace can we be saved. We must be reborn in the Holy Spirit and be renewed. Only by the gift of God we can enter Heaven. There is truly no way to Heaven except through Jesus Christ.
The point of the article is to point out the origins of the idea of heaven and hell. I think you're talking about your faith - which I have no problem with, but the discussion is about the origin of the idea. it is disputed that our conventional idea of heaven hell, harps, animals etc is not consistent with the bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
I just thought it would be a good debate. I'm not about challenging your particular faith.
Dekarto said:But the important part here is that if God inspired the authors of the Bible, then Heaven is not a man-made idea, it is something revealed to us from God through the Bible.
..."if"...
What if not?
I think it's something you should express a view on.
You're asking me, a fool who says in his heart that there is no God, to consider the possibility that Heaven is something revealed to me by God through the agency of the authors of the Bible. (I don't think it was necessary to call me a fool in order to get me to do that, but I'll forgive you.)
So - I agree that if the Bible is the Word of God, then Heaven is a real place that I should consider working towards.
Now - if the Bible is not the Word of God, and Heaven is a man-made idea, then what will you do?
This is true, and I have stated my opinion: That the origin of the idea is God. This is what I think is true, you may disagree, and then that is what you think is true. We may have different opinions and thoughts on this issue, and that is ok. If we all had the same thoughts on this, there wouldn't be a thread about it, would it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I did not call you a fool, the Bible did, or more exact; David.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
About your last question: I did for most parts of my life believe that God did not exist and that the Bible was just the Jew's version of Lord of the Rings. So this question is easy to answer. I wouldn't do a thing to get into heaven. I didn't do a thing. I thought that Heaven was a man-made idea and I wondered why people bothered to live by a lot of "dos" "don'ts" just to go to some imagenary candyshop after death. So that is what I would do, and that is what I have done.
Wait, wait. So you didn't start being good until you thought there was something in it for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
I think that that's worse than not being good.
Did you just happen to read that with absolutely no comrephension at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Ok - so where does it describe the idea of heaven currently subscribed to? The images of heaven - are they harps, clouds, meeting loved ones, birdsong, animals? That's what lots of people think of with the idea of heaven - or am I wrong? If this is so - what part of the bible are they from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
No, I got it. Until he believed in God and Heaven he (or possibly she) "wondered why people bothered to live by a lot of "dos" "don'ts" just to go to some imagenary candyshop after death".Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
Now, however, he does believe in God and Heaven, and he has a reason to live by the 'dos and donts'.
So the behaviour is reward-driven.
W a r n i n g
Please do not personalise your arguments.
Post containing inflammatory/personal comments will be removed without further notice.
So let me see if I have this right. A righteous person who dedicates his life to the alleviation of suffering among his fellow man, yet who does not believe in God, is going to spend eternity in Hell (suffering terribly I assume) for the unpardonable sin of not believing in God, while the ardent Christian, who also happens to be a selfish, wife-beating xenophobe, will be rewarded with a place in Heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
It seems, then, that believer or not, our eternal fate is to be decided by God. Fair enough. But what kind of God is it that makes this decision based not on the righteousness of our actions, but rather on whether we believe in him or her. That sounds to me like a morally abhorrent system. Indeed, it seems to me you are positing the existence of a God who is superficial and nepotistic.
I didn't say that at all. I said that before I was a born-again believer I thought that Christians lived by a lot of "dos" and "don'ts" just to get into Heaven. While this is partially true for some people (especially Catholics who have got a wrong teaching on salvation), I found out that I was wrong once my eyes were opened to the truth. The thing is that once you have been saved and accepted Christ as Savior, you will be born again as a new person. God will come into your life and you will be filled with the Holy Spirit so that it falls natural to be good and do nice things. You can't get into heaven by being just good. You get into Heaven by believing in God and all the good deeds is a result of this belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
The behaviour is not at all reward-driven. As said, it is a natural result of being born again in Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
A true Christian will not be a selfish, wife-beating xenophobe, as you describe it. A person with this behaviour can impossibly know God and is not saved. This "Christian" you describe is not really a Christian and will not go to Heaven. Not all so-called Christians will go to Heaven. Only those who truly believe and walk by faith (and God) in life.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsmith
This world is already fallen. Our actions on Earth has no eternal value. To God, a thief is just as bad as a rapist. No sin is worse than any other. This world will pass away and there will be a New Earth and it seems only logical to me that God takes with Him only those who love and worship Him to this New Earth, not unbelievers who have not dedicated a moment of their earthly life to worship Him. It is not a morally abhorrent system. Trust me when I say to you that no evil person, no wife-beater, no selfish a-hole will enter Heaven. These people are not true believers.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsmith
Oh no you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
As Mark points out, you initially claimed that not believing in heaven is the sole unpardonable sin, thereby implying that other sins were indeed pardonable. You now claim that no sin is worse than another: a rapist is as bad as a thief. Given that every sin is thus equivalent to the greatest sin, any person who commits a sin (regardless of what that sin was) is unable to enter heaven. Or put another way, if a wife beater is not a true Christian (because of their sinful act), then the thief is not a true Christian (because of their equally offensive act). Of course, there is the separate case of the professed non-believer who lives with compassion and mercy, but their actions are of no interest to God because they do not venerate him. As you suggest one, 'can't get into heaven by being just good. You get into Heaven by believing in God and all the good deeds is a result of this belief.' Before I post any further, can you confirm that I have it right?
I said that not believing in God is the unpardonable sin. And when I later claimed that no sin is worse than another sin, I was of course not talking about the unpardonable sin. I thought I made this clear by the context, but if not, I apologize for not being specific enough and causing confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsmith
You are making new meanings of my words here. I claimed no sin to be worse than any other (not including the unpardonable sin), not that every wife-beater and every theif is not a true Christian. They are most likely not, but it is not certain. Christians can "slip" or "fall", and sin, but as long as they get back up again and walk with God, it is not certain that they are not true Christians. All sins are individual cases. It would be wrong to say "everybody" or "nobody" when it comes to this matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsmith
All sin except disbelief in God is pardonable.
What you are saying here is partially true. The good acts of a non-believer may interest God and even be pleasing to him, but this does not make them free from the punishment they deserve as sinners. Only those who accept their sinful nature and confess to God that they are fallen beings and regret their sins and ask for forgiveness in Christ, can be forgiven. But you are right in that only those who believe in God will enter Heaven, and that good deeds is the result of salvation -- good deeds alone will not save you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsmith
Then how come it's not on the top ten list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
What are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
i think the reference is to the Ten Commandments, and papayahed is suggesting that 'not believing in God' doesn't appear on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
Strictly speaking, she's right - though there is one about not having any other god. It doesn't, to be fair, say you're not allowed to have no god at all. He should have tied that down a bit - it's a possible loophole.
Then again. as there's no reason to pay any attention to the Ten Commandments unless you believe they're straight from God, then you could say that belief in him is a sine qua non of buying in, and so 'Thou'd just better believe in me, or else' is a kinda meta-Commandment.
Thing is though, Jesus offered a simplified or, if you like, a soundbite version of the Commandments that complicates the issue somewhat.
When asked by the Pharisees which was the greatest law he said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'"
This, combined with, 'no one enters the kingdom of heaven but through me' is the basis of Dekarto's argument.
I use the word 'argument' in its very loosest sense - that is, not the one that implies logical rigour instigated from a neutral starting point and applied without reference to any premises that aren't externally verifiable and broadly accepted.
Which allows Jim Jones, David Berkowitz, Timothy McVeigh and Ted Bundy to go to heaven but not Carl Sagan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
That sounds perfectly reasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Yeah, if Dekarto's right, it would appear that God didn't really think the process through. And that, it seems to me, is always the problem with the argument that Dekarto presents. Faced with that proposition, a reasonable person has to come to one of two conclusions- either Dekarto's mistaken or God's not too bright.
I'd always seen it more as a massive vanity and insecurity.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
If a god is powerful enough to create an entire universe, why would it want people singing its praises every Sunday? Why would it care if people worshipped another god? None of them are real, right?
I'm with you. That thing about believing just seems so arbitrary and pointless. I mean, why not make the unforgivable sin - I dunno - running with scissors or whistling through your teeth. Why did the deity choose something so obviously self-referential and with no other useful purpose?
I'll tell you the answer to that one too, actually: no mortal can understand the mind of God, and it's pretty cosmically impolite to try to, okay, bub?
I know that this idea was cooked up by some ruler over a thousand years ago in an attempt to prevent people from straying away from the church, but I'll just tell you right now, for a kid it has the complete opposite effect. This was, above all things (the suffering in the world, the really bad track record that religion has piled up over the centuries, etc) the main thing that made me stop going to kid's church after school when I was eleven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
Eleven year old me: "so we can't even ask questions because it might hurt the supreme ruler of the universe's feelings? Screw that, this is a crock. I don't even care if this place gives me snacks, I'm outta here."
It is my hope that you are not asking if Heaven and Hell are real, but whether various forum members believe in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
If you are really asking the question of real, I would be hard pressed to accept a single response seriously.
What one believes and what is real may not be the same. I may have faith that when I sit on the park bench it will have been engineered in such a way as to hold my average weight. However, if time, weather, tampering or error in construction, play a significant roll, then I may find myself sprawled on the ground, wondering, "What just happened?"
Faith that good (help) is greater than evil (harm) is a personal guide and those who truly have faith and live by that, I believe, are better for it.
Is Heaven and Hell real? I have no idea. I know what I think, what I believe, but to someone else's reality...I simply do not know.
I will suggest that if one believes in God, then heaven may be eternity in the presence of God and hell the eternal absence from God.
I do find it ironic that you create a very poor analogy like that, yet not realise that people's faith in heaven & hell are a lot weaker even than the kind of irrational faith that would cause someone to plonk down on a rusted and weatherbeaten seat. At least someone who irrationally believed that anything manufactured will last forever and be safe would have some kind of baseline for their stupidity - almost all of the time, the idea that manufactured goods are safe is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK
Not to mention that men make park benches, not engineering. Engineering is a process, not a guarantee.
What do you mean by believe in them and real? If someone believes in heaven and hell, then don't they also think it is real.Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK
I will suggest that if one believes in God, then heaven may be eternity in the presence of God and hell the eternal absence from God
This is not what people who are asked respond with. The article questions the ideas people have about heaven - and hell by implication. Heaven in the usual conception is thought of as a place where relatives and pets are re-united etc The article questions the development of this.
I apologize if I have offended anyone by making a suggestion (offering an idea) in response to the title of the thread "Heaven and Hell - Are they for real?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Put quite simply if a person believes in God and believes in Heaven and Hell (and that should not be an assumption), couldn't that person believe that God is all things, and further if God is all things and Heaven is being in the presence of all things then might it mean to that person that they would be reunited to all who have gone before them (all things)?
Or, perhaps that being in the presence of God, no longer requires those things that were needed prior to death in this world.
There are many more thoughts (ideas) to explore on this, but given the censure from Paulclem, perhaps I will stop here.
I thought I was asking a serious question not censuring you. I was referring to the repondants according to the article who don't spreak of being in the prescence of God, but describe heaven in more concrete terms such as a place where relatives are reunited and their pets now live. It might be a description that reflects the relative unfamiliarity of nominal Christians with what it actually says in the bible, but I couldn't say for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK
I can assure you that I was not intending to insult or censure you, but prompt debate.
The topic of this thread is "Heaven and Hell - Are They for Real?" I will just add my thoughts here related to this issue.
People in both old and modern times have engaged themselves in studying and defining the Heaven and the Hell. Thus, we now have various points of views on the Hereafter.
However, you don't need to study or to be a scholar in order to believe in the reality of these two unseen spiritual locations. The religious feeling is original in Man at any time or age and whatever the degree of his culture. I am not sure if it is religious instinct rather than a feeling but I know that it is deeply rooted inside humanity's soul. There doesn't exist old civilisation without the belief in Heaven and Hell: all of them had this double system.
For me, Heaven and Hell are more real than this world. They are actual places, not a mere state of mind or a spiritual entity. They exist at the present time and will continue to exist forever. They will never pass away and their inhabitants will remain there forever.
It is not a hope to live in Hereafter but it is a certitude, I am certain that after the wordly life comes to an end, I will be following one of two ways of life prepared for us in the afterworld. :)
Heaven and Hell -Are they for real?
I've just read an interesting article in the UK's Independant newspaper on the idea of Heaven.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-1949399.html
It says that the Christian/ Jewish/ Muslim version of heaven is an invented idea - around 165BC, which it claims arose due to the insecurity of burial rituals during the Greek occupation of Jewish lands.
It quotes some stats:
83% of US citizens and 51% of UK citizens believe in heaven.
Of these 71% believe it's an actual place
41% of these think their cats and dogs etc will follow them there.
It doesn't say that belief in Heaven implies a belief in Hell. What do you think - does it?
Is the idea of Heaven wish fulfillment, and what about near death experiences?
Are ideas of heaven, and by implication hell, too woolly?
Hi Lacra. I have quoted the original post above. The article from where my question originated stems from the assertion by the author that the idea of heaven and hell as we conceive it today has not existed for very long. It can be traced back to a particular biblical time, but it bears little resemblance to modern conceptions.
I wanted to read the article, Paul, but it didn't want to open, seems that the posted link is broken, can you please post it again? Thank you. :)
They're both real and this is the correct answer in terms of what their "composition" is.Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK
The only caveat I would add is that whether one "believes" in God or not does not change the fact that s/he ends up in one of these two destinations.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-1949399.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Lacra
If this doesn't work, then the link on the first page works. :smile5:
The article questions whether the common view of heaven or hell is merely a modern construct with no basis in the bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin