I can buy that. I do think that ultimately that comes from God, but your position is way better than moral relativism.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
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I can buy that. I do think that ultimately that comes from God, but your position is way better than moral relativism.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Like i said... perspective.
Not going to repeat myself again - read my posts.
Yes - infact, having a conscience is one of the main reasons we aren't all off killing each other. And science has proven that those who do, have a chemical imbalance within themselves. It's evolution. We, as the higher species have evolved, the fact that we have the ability to understand the killing another is .. to use the term loosely "bad" - has evolved from our natural instincts to protect our kind.
The Atheist is correct - it's about surviving.
But what are we "surviving" for? seems to be the question people want to know.
Spend their lives wondering and then they drop dead having not lived a second of it.
Evolution has a lot more backing and evidential support than alternative beliefs. We only have to look at ourselves and animals to see that.
Actually I thought I knew where you were going but that is another thread. Since it is instinctive to have those qualities which is a foundation to evolve upon, it is therefore instinctive to kill that which would harm us. I'll just slip into the revenge - right or wrong thread.....
Yes, but when I look at nature, animals, and children, I see that there seems to be a divine form reflected in everything. This leads me to belief in God. I am sorry you had a conflict with a Christian on here. Both Christianity and Buddhism (you said you came from a Buddhist family) preach humbleness, humility, and compassion or love. I wish we would be able to learn from each other here. I studied the Tibetan saint Milarepa fairly indepth, as well as many other Buddhist teachers and a few scriptures and sutras. I have also now been studying "Hindu" scriptures such as Bhagavad-Gita (The Song of our Lord), Srimad Bhagavatam (The beautiful Bhagavata or the story of the Fortunate One), and other scriptures such as in the Vedas Sri Isopanisad and things like this. Yet when I look at nature and when I look inward and outward, I see that things come from a divine soul. This is why that is what I believe. And I have deep faith and respect for Buddha because he taught a great path, and respect for life, compassion toward humans and compassion and ahisma, or non-violence, toward animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
I believe in reincarnation rather than hell, and the Bhakti-vedanta philosophy also believes in karma and reincarnation. I don't think we go to hell if we die, although there are hell planets and in Buddhism there is a hell realm. I think we would get reincarnated as a human if we lived a normal life and did not do anything better or worse than normal. If we produced the karma of an animal in this life, or created the consciousness of an animal, we would take an animal's body in our next life, which is suitable for fulfilling our baser desires. (Such as one might become a tiger for the taste of flesh, a bear for the desire to hibernate, or a pigeon for the desire for sex, as pigeons have a body capable of having sex more than a thousand times a day.) As in Buddhism where there is the land of the hungry ghosts -- beings with bodies that have great desire but are unable to satisfy their desire by consuming anything -- in my religion there are beings exactly like this. A friend of mine, Jivananda, was giving class or we were just in a discussion, and he told me he knew about creatures who are very fat, very lazy, and get everything they desire, in fact anything they desire they can produce it and simply consume it, they do nothing but consume all day -- they are hogs.
I would encourage you to try to foster a spirit of openness and positivity in your next posts. One Buddhist sutra I dearly love and great respect for is the Heart Sutra. This explains the deep wisdom of the Buddha, and you have possibly heard of it or know it. All is interconnected. What this means to me, personally, is that all the forms of the universe are the same, in a way. That is, the form of the whole is also the form of the parts. Since we are all interconnected, all is, in a sense, of the essence of the Buddha. Buddha nature is our nature, and also the entire universe is Buddha. It's been said that all phenomena are the teachings of Buddha. It's also written in scripture that Buddha is equal to the realm of reality, or to the cosmos. Also in the Flower Ornament Heart Sutra it is stated that in every atom of the universe, there are oceans of world systems. All of these scriptural evidences indicate that there is more to all of this than meets the eye. Buddhist scriptures will describe a teaching, and then say if read or hear it and are not afraid, it means you have haerd it from Chenrezig in a past life. I know one is not required to believe any of the teachings of different parts of Buddhism. One idea in Buddhism is not to accept things without thinking, or in other words taking them for granted. I use this and I do not try to convert people for vegetarianism (cow protection) which I am strongly for. It's a cause of mine but I don't try to be forceful about it, for what can I say at best but - I disagree with your actions, which I used to partake in? Vegetarianism is right for me, because I cannot find any reason which would convince me it's okay to partake in eating meat. I believe in non-violence and even compassion toward animals, whom it is not necessary to kill to eat, or even be the healthist you can be..
So you don't have to believe what any teacher in Buddhism teaches, not Zen, not Pure Land, or any other. You don't have to accept dakinis, ghosts, or Bodhisattvas, although I believe they all exist and have their place.
Yogi Milarepa was a great saint, and I believe, an authentic yogi. I believe he could live in the mountain in very cold temperatures with only a cloth garment (which is what his name means) - I believe he could fly, as well as manifest the blissful Buddha-body (though this is in a way far beyond my conception). I believe he could fly as well. All of these yogic perfections are also part of Vedic knowledge and history, but they are not considered the ultimate goal. For instance there is a planet called Siddha-loka, and the Siddhas have achieved the eight kinds of materialistic, or yogic perfections. But these perfections even though they are great, do not result in the end of birth and death. In the higher planets of the spiritual worlds, the demigods have completely pure karma and many benedictions and enjoyments; but this is our main reason for being within the material universe, of birth and death, in the first place; our desire to enjoy, or enjoy separately from the Lord.
So I have great respsect and faith for the Heart Sutra and other sutras, as well as Buddhas, Bodhisattvas (the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha), and I believe there is power in sutras and mantras, but they are not the only mantras there are. In fact there are thousands upon thousands of mantras. People in the West are sometimes confused and misled by these. They are all part, reflected true or with some distortion, of the original transcendental sound, Om. Om is also the Godhead in bhakti-yoga we follow devotion to the Godhead. Yes, the Godhead is invisible from our material sense perspective, but that is because it is the Godhead. If you see violence being preached in the name of God you can be sure it is false. As false as the awful post by Mal. I know you haven't said anything as sacreligious as he; but how would you feel if someone called Lord Buddha to be insane and cruel or stupid. Maybe it would seem like nothing to you but then -- should anyone say anything like this? For Skasian, Christ is God and God is Christ, and Christ is as personal and accessible to her as the Buddha is to you are any Buddhist. Now I am a third party besides Buddhist or Christian, as there are also yet Jews, Muslims, and all others. I believe in Lord Hari as opposed to Buddha, I believe in Sri Ram instead of Allah, I believe in Krsna as well as Christos. Now please consider all I have had to say.
I am a theist but I believe in karma and reincarnation very similarly to the Buddhists. But I don't anyone should be criticized the way people have been on here recently (I particularly noticed a barrage or ganging up on Skasian) and I am calling for some deceny and respect. I am not putting blame on you any more than anyone else, but calling someone's views "Bizarre and hateful" at least in this case -- is FLATOUT personal aggression, in this case as far as I can tell completely a wrong judgement; and it is nearing demonization -- at least you are demonizing someone she feels is The Lord, who is perfect and who, even if she doesn't love, feels is more deserving of love than anyone, since they are, after all, the source of all beauty, strength, wisdom, etc. as well as all the spiritual and material worlds.
Please consider your words carefully because they do matter, just as actions matter, and be careful not to let negative energy guide your words because if you do you are feeding something which does not get smaller when it is fed.
Revenge?
or self defence?
because revenge isn't exactly the right word for it.
good point limajean but I thought it might fit the eye for an eye concept that everyone keeps raising. You kill my babies = I kill you. Oh well
I'll go along with that - moral relativism just doesn't stack up on its own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
That's not quite right - some people can live amoral lives without having a physical defect like an imbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
That does happen and it saddens me, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Yes, just as a lion will attack that which threatens his pride, a bear will protect his territory and dolphins will attack sharks who come too close to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
Which reminds me of a very good one on this current derail - dolphins have been recorded as saving human lives, even though we're responsible for killing more of them than any predator.
Diver saved by dolphins?
Dolphins drive off great white?
Lifeguards swear dolphins saved them from shark attack.
There seem to be enough reputable anecdotes cases that we can accept that dolphins have indeed saved human lives. Why do they do that? Do dolphins and humans share the same god? Or is it just that we share a common enemy and they would protect a seal the same way?
I tend to go with the latter.
That's a wonderful point and I thank you very much. While of course I believe it's wrong to kill dolphins, as wrong as it is to kill any living creature; and while of course I think dolphins and humans have the same god, I don't wish to contradict you on that point, but yet I still disagree with your idea that it is only to work against a common enemy. First I would say that you have given a good reason for us not to kill them. They do not kill us - in fact they save our lives!! Much the same way dogs have saved our lives. Now while we in the west do not eat dogs, some cultures do. Many people in the west, though they eat food which comes from slaughterhouses, are very upset or disagreeable to eating dogs, and would never do so; just as sometimes they have this feeling for horses. Because with dogs, they are very close to us here in the west and are generally considered part of the family, totally loyal, totally capable of love and affection. In fact all animals are this way and this is why I disagree with killing them. Anyway, having said all that I think dolphins have a greater reason for protecting humans... you may consider this garbage for the reason I have not met dolphins, and if you do that is valid although I hope you aren't cruel about it; but I would guess that it is more than just sharing a common enemy. Dolphins are very intelligent and it seems that animals, especially mammals, are almost always pack animals, with family units and so forth. Some mammals like bears are very dangerous, or even lions are terribly dangerous. But if you simply connect the lion with the house cat, you can see we can have relationships with animals like cats and dogs -- it shows it's possible, and so dolphins may protect humans for more than just going after the shark or whale. But then it may just be to protect another enemy of their enemy - that would make sense as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
[Edit: I didn't mean that animals are almost always pack-animals but that mammals are. Clearly snakes, etc. are not.
[Note:... I don't mean to be preachy or forceful in anything. I really love this site and I have learned a great deal from people. I come here to learn. But this had gotten the point I thought something needed to be said. (Still talking about the posts a little while back.) I hope I have done so in a positive if not healthy way, rather than a negative or unhealthy way. I don't think my way is better nor do I think it is m job to sort these things out but I hope I was free to input. I don't mean to put blame on one or another, except for some very personally aggressive and mean comments, but I wished to say no one is an extremist... and all are free and welcome to common sense, it is the property of all. I know it might seem like I am going on so incredibly long and if my post bothers you I apologize, just don't read it, but if we have missed such an incredibly obvious point as - we don't know each other personally, so it is very wrong to judge someone as an extremist or anything else, like incompepetent, etc.; then I don't mind going to lengths to explain the simple idea. So it's uncalled for to call names. We are all good, intelligent people, looking to cultivate the good in ourselves and others. If we can't discuss something for some emotional reason, then just refrain.
And on a more personal opinion, I would not call anyone on this thread or forum bad, first because I have no reason to, and second because I am not in a position or habit of judging. It would be hypocritical to judge, and also, Judge not and be not judged.]
The Atheist, sorry for going back and forth on topics and I hope I didn't write too long of posts on your thread.
Hm, I am afraid or I hope I do not come off as wishing only to talk about myself, LoL!
Lastly, do you like extremists - what they have done? Then do not give them a right to existence. When we think of something, it gives it a right of existence. Negative thoughts are negative energy. We might think that it is only a thought, but thinking of it gives it a right of existence, the beginning of formation and existence. Same with suggestion (positive or negative), so please do not call anyone an extremist because no one here is. Please consider.
[QUOTE=
Which reminds me of a very good one on this current derail - dolphins have been recorded as saving human lives, even though we're responsible for killing more of them than any predator.
.[/QUOTE]
Are dolphins altruistic then? Hasn't it been argued that there is no such thing as altruism? I am not a very deep thinker. In fact I posted an article on another website today and was told I am incredibly naive...
I suppose there are no dolphins in hell?
Does that make sense?
Hahahaha... well, no, there are no dolphins in hell...Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
No such thing? No I think there is such thing as altruism.
I think dolphins are amazing but I know I might put too much into it subjectively. Don't forget they might not know of the other dolphins which were killed.
Don't forget there are many dolphins who may have passed up an opportunity to save a human!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
I really enjoyed reading that, and realize i probably did come off a little strong with many of the things i said. I realize that her beliefs are her own, even though they may seem very strange to me. I have never been able to fully accept certain things about Christianity - I don't think I ever will. But, that aside, I don't want to come off as someone who sounds very ignorant - because i'm not, far from it. Sometimes i can't express myself quite as clearly as id like to when it comes to matters like these - particulary in matters close to my heart.
What i loved about buddhism was the ability to be anything you wanted to be - yet still allow buddhist faith in your life. You could be a christian, and yet be a buddhist in the same light. But..that's an entirely different subject..
Thanks for your comment - much appreciated.
First Christianity is not all built up by the Bible, as there are spiritual encounters we have with God that help us live in the way we want.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Saying a system as holy as religion and remarking it is flawed is insult. I tolded you before that it is the same as remarking God is flawed. Do you understand this?
I told you this before yet I have to repeat myself. I never directly told you are going to hell, I just shared Christian aspect about Christian hell. If you commit yourself to engage in a discussion in the thread "The CHristian Hell" then why are you angst about the true aspects and rules Christian follow? If you want to discuss about it, you should be ready to hear the hard reality that Christians believe about their hell.
I never complained about what people thought, I was trying to give them the true insight what the Christian rule with afterlife was. Yes, most people here who disagrees with the idea of hell are simply misunderstood. If you want to know why, then read my previous posts in page 1~2. Like THe Atheist has pointed out, I think I am repeating the same thing to different people too much. If you have further enquires after reading my previous posts, feel free to discuss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maletbon
The question I have to ask is why are people here frustrated as they hear the true aspects and rule Christian have about afterlife? If people are interested to engage into this thread "the CHristian THread" then arent they suppose to be ready to hear the hard values that Christians have? Even if it was the any other religious hell we were talking about, it will trigger the same response, because some religions follow the rule that if you dont believe in their god, they dont get accepted to heaven. I thought people were more accepting to hear some values that seems unnatural for them, I thought people were able to turn a blind eye at these aspects. Clearly they arent.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Thank you for suggesting that I should think for myself than regurgitating what the pastor said. But as a Christian, what else should I think if the values of Christianity is identical to my thoughts?
It is true that God will punish the ones that insult Him and that He doesnt need His followers to stand up for him, however as His follower, I want the prevention of such punishment to other people. I have said this before, I think the disagreement is occuring because of lack of understandings of the Christian rule. Something doesnt make sense to them, they oppose straight away without perceiving the whole information first. I like to point out that I am fine with people that oppose the religion with full knowledge of Christianity. I am not against this.
This is the Christian reality: If you dont believe in Jesus, you dont get accepted to heaven. Most Christians believe in this as well so we believe in the same line. Pascal's Wager or not, as most Christians know this, they keep to this and this is why Christians go on Missions to spread the word about Jesus, that people can be saved by the Saviour. I know this line here is causing people troblem or disagreement, if you need further explanation, please read my previous posts in page1~2, I do not intend to repeat myself.
Why do you think the Words of the bible is meaningless? Please elaborate, I would like to hear your views.
The analogy you have called, is a fine example that is answered by my previous post in page one, I will quote it for you.
Quote:
Yes, I always thought it was "unfair" for thoes evil doers that do believe in Jesus in the final hours that can go to heaven while the good doers that do not believe in Jesus go to hell. However in God's terms, accepting your one and true God as Jesus outweighs whatever you do in Earth. I am not a pastor, and I am not an experienced preacher or any kind, therefore I cannot be certain on how God weighs our values in order to go to heaven. However I am sure that you must accept Jesus in order to go to heaven because that is the most important thing in ourlives. Think about it this way, if you do not hand in a research paper for school in the due date but have constructed the most ingenious paper that could earn you a place in Harvard, you dont get a chance to get in because you havent done the most vital thing. Hand in the paper by the due date.
I have been monitoring this thread with some interest, and I note that many feel that they are too good to go to hell, as they are not murderes or anything. So what are you? Perfect? I think not.
You see. there are more things mentioned for going to hell than murder. Even lying in the last chapter of revelations. Let us look at your life, shall we?
Don't even try to convince me you never told a lie or even that you didn't today. A lie is any thing that obscures the truth. So that makes you a liar, doesn't it?
Did you ever take what wasn't yours? That is stealing. Let me guess, it went something like this: You found something and felt "finders keepers", hum? Or perhaps they gave you the wrong amount at the store or in the bank. You kept it, rationalizing "their loss". Un huh. If it had been your loss you wouild have marched right back in. So you are a theif.
Jesus taught that to look with lustful eyes was adultery. I am human enough to know that has happened. So now you are an adulterer as well as a theif and liar.
Don't covet says the commandment, but you say "Must be nice!" Coveter!
Should I go on? We need God, He doesn't need us. We need the help He provides to live any kind of "good life." Maybe no one ever pointed out this way to you before. Now, someone has.
God Bless
Pen
hi im new to the forums, but i was just wondering if you were to kill yourself to save others do you not become a martyr. but from what i know if you kill yourself you automatically go to hell in the christian beliefQuote:
Originally Posted by skasian
First off, I'd never give you a hard time; while we disagree on many things, your views are honest & heartfelt, and I have no trouble with people holding views which are different or opposite from mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
I hope you get to play with some dolphins some day, because I'd guarantee that it would confirm for you that they are cognitively smart.
I just wish we could figure out how to communicate with them. And you're right about mammals - most of them are indeed social animals.
Just on the border of long enoughQuote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
:D
And no, your posts don't come over as self-centred in any way. Like most people with zen-like persuasions, I find your attitude commendable and I've said on many occasions that the world would be a much better place if everyone were Buddhist. I believe that's true, because I admire the non-violent, conciliatory inclusiveness of Buddhism.
I just could never get by without steak.
:)
Wasn't me was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
:lol::lol::lol:
I said that to a couple of people yesterday.
Quite seriously, the whole theism/atheism debate is one where a little naivete is a good thing. Every single person on the planet has their own doctrine and every one of them is based on personal experience, so why should you take notice of anyone else's doctrine.
One of the smartest blokes ever, Bertrand Russell, said we should question all philosophies, even our own. Well, if you're naive, you sure haven't been tainted by someone else's doctrine, and that's got to be good.
Are dolphins atruistic? We can't say for certain, but based upon quite extensive evidence from studies in the wild, it seems that they are. Altruism exists alright - the disagreement is about why it exists. I say evolution, theists say god...
Depends who you talk to. Some sects say there will be animals in heaven, and in the bible, Jesus himself says that not a sparrow farts without his old man knowing about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
(Or words to that effect ;) )
They aren't frustrated by that alone. You have - as I showed - repeated the same line about non-believers going to hell several times. That's what gets people upset. I accept that you're just speaking your mind, but is anything served by repeating it?Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
When it is repeated several times, it can look insulting.
It doesn't bother me; I've had my spot as Satan's right hand man picked out for years. That's why I'm The Atheist and not some other kind of atheist.
:D
Well. some can and some can't. I think you should at least try to see how someone repeating that they will be tortured eternally for not believing in your god can be hurtful, though. What you're doing is describing a religion which lives on fear - fear of being sent to hell if we don't act the prescribed way.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
You talk about the values of christianity as being identical to your thoughts, but there is no agreed "values of christianity". Heaven is certainly about 100% belief among christians, but hell is viewed very differently by sects, so you can't say that your views agree with wider christianity. I'm not saying either one is better than another, just different, but if your personal view matches your church's view, then that's good.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
That's an admirable attitude, but you need to understand that to non-theists, your view of your god, heaven and hell is the least attractive version of christianity. A god who punishes people eternally - for whatever reason - isn't all that appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
I've been talking to atheists for decades and I'm 100% certain that today's militant atheism was spawned by yesterday's rise of fundamental christianity.
I'm interested to know what constitutes "full christian knowledge" and why that's important, because so far, the only reason you've advanced is that god says so, so it must be true. Given that no evidence exists other than what the bible says, regarding hell, there's little else to know. Plus, I must reiterate that the bible is read very differently between differing sects.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Based on that, and allowing that you're not even the millionth person to repeat god's rules in that way, it's actually quite easy to understand why people dismiss it without going any further.
I'm not going to get too involved in this because it calls for a history of religion lesson. Suffice to say that there isn't anything in the christian religion which hasn't been borrowed from elsewhere - virgin birth, resurrection, miraculous happenings, god-on-earth.... all of them have earlier origins. To me, and many atheists, the bible is a collection of just-so stories of little or no value.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Once we get through that, I'd have to list the inconsistencies and oturight contradictions of the bible, of which there are hundreds. Do you eat shellfish or pork? Do men in your church shave their beards? These things are expressly prohibited in the bible, and in the very same chapters I've heard used in sermons against homosexuality at fundamental churches. And that's just the tip of the iceberg... the she-bears, the iron chariots... there are just so many that I find it impossible to accept that anyone can interpret it consistently.
It is a mockery to then insist that the book is infallibly right.
Not what I meant, I'd seen that post, but no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Well, I was done, but have to respond to this, since telling the truth is not personal aggression. Telling people that if they don't agree with you they will be tortured by their creator is personal aggression. Unlike those types of believers, I don't believe in torment as a good attribute of The Divine, even for people who disagree with me. Not sure I understand the free pass people who believe things apparently have earned. Since someone believes something, if you use strong words to tell them the truth, that's aggression. I don't get that.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
I defy anyone to find any concept ever created by the mind of man that is more bizarre than the idea the All-Powerful Lord of the Universe burns his children in fire for ALL ETERNITY. You can't do it. George Bush is really an alien? Nope. Up is green? Nope. North is south? Nope. It's impossible. That belief is the most bizarre thing on the planet, flat out. Please tell me something more bizarre than that, if you can.
And hateful. Hateful? Ha, you thought it was hateful that I called their belief hateful? You do know that I'm fighting infinity here, and all I have is words. So to you saying "hateful" is more hate-filled than thinking everyone who doesn't like your favorite scriptures will be tormented by his creator ETERNALLY? That is the definition of hate.
Nothing has ever been invented by the mind of man more painful that the punishment that is dealt out to disbelievers in Christianity. It is impossible to create anything more painful than Hell. Try it. You can't. Fundie Christians have cornered the market on pain and saved it for people who disagree with them. How could I be truthful and say that that was anything other than hateful? It's inhuman in its callousness, and frankly despicable.
But it's okay, since it's a belief, and has been around a long time. Hate and Pain is really God's Love.
When people worship a punishing God, they become surrogate punishers. Sure worked for Inquisitors and Crusaders. We're just doing God's work. Punishing.
How is that not hateful and bizarre?
No need to respond, since this is the last time I come to this page. I have better things to do than get all riled up about book-worshipers. And I know if I even look in here again once, I am doomed to whining for all eternity.
Nikolai, I know you just want me to be nice to people, and believe it or not, I usually am, since unlike fundamentalists of any religion, not just Christianity, I think people are good and don't deserve to be punished, especially not forever, which is so utterly ridiculous and silly that I'm crazy to even argue against it. Thank you for not believing in Hell.
The only thing I can think of is that since the subject matter of the forum thread, it is entirely valid to state a religious view on it. The Atheist is obvioulsy a good person, and he did not create this thread solely or at all to create bad feeling. Therefore there is not a good reason why we cannot have all views expressed - those that say that they believe in Christ but not hell, as well as those that believe Christ is saving us from damnation. I think you are going much to far in saying that someone is hateful for having this view. It is true crimes have been done in the name of every religion, and also God. But I have read some of Skasian's posts and to me she is intelligent, kind, and her posts are valuable and insightful. I disagree with her on points such as hell, and vegetarianism, but our exchanges have been pleasant and respectful. But even if this were not the case, it is not the right tactic or strategy to write the way you did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maletbon
Even if the concept of hell is something that is disturbing to you, there is no reason to blow skasian's posts out of porportion. As I quoted on another post, "if you view the world as hostile you create it that way," the same is true for people. If you treat someone as hostile, as mean or as stupid, then you will gradually have that effect on them - this is much more noticable in children, especially the differenc has been discovered between much love and positive encouragement (read: belief and faith in the child) - in other words, treat them with the implicit understanding that they are a valuable human being who is capable, competent and intelligent - then they will develop these qualities with confidence. Treat them with neglect and they will not reach their potential. So if you act like it is hopeless for someone - your position is not so insightful, it is not so great, and you are only giving a negatve assertion, suggestion, and opinion, which immediately creates bad feeling and comes back to you. Lastly if the idea of hell bothers you so much, then do not come here, but don't call people extremist and worse. Please and thank you.
Wow! I want to swim with the dolphins atm. Perhaps they know......the altruistic ones that is.
Hm I wanted to say, I don't really like to have, figuratively, my mouth full of all I've been saying lately. I don't judge because I don't know you. But I just wanted to point out that it's probably wrong to judge another, because you don't know them. And since it was getting so touchy and defensive, that is why I wrote so much... although I probably did write too much... anyway I will get off it for a while, since it wound down anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
You believe that religion is not flawed?
okay i can't be bothered wasting any more time talking to delusionals.
You follow blindly, Skasian..
That'll be the last post from me. This thread gives me a headache.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
Thank you Limajean, I appreciate it, but I probably wrote too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Regardless I am much more comfortable studying and discussing things other than that..... heh. But thank you, and I am glad you are on the forum and giving your input. Communication I know can be difficult, I've been visiting this forum for over a year and also writing different things... both happiness and sadness or any kind of thought or emotion can be difficult to express at times. One reason for this is that we are always forgetting those moments when we have some special thought or realization.
Okay, so much for that. Well I don't feel so bad about writing so much about it since it failed (ha, is that ironic?) to have any effect. Skasian is not delusional, limajean. Nor are you not able to debate (I think I saw someone say that..?). This is an instance where I am going to walk away not taking anyone very seriously.
*takes delta's cue and leaves quietly*
Well I guess that's a matter of opinion. But to me, anyone who believes our creator will burn us all in hell because we're not bending at the knees is slightly delusional, not as a person, but in their beliefs. I'm sick of the politically correct nonsense we have to stick to these days. No one can say what they really feel or what everyone is thinking because it's not "right" to do so. Things would be solved a lot quicker if people didn't tip toe. I don't tip toe. It may offend you but atleast i play it straight, i see no point in adding a silver lining.
Damn - okay that there, really is my last post..
I think as an ongoing interlocutor, the purpose of discussion is the exchange of viewpoints and ideas, rather than to convince anyone. Don't underestimate your ability to have an effect, though. Sometimes people get insight just from the experience of being on this thread.
A colossal misunderstanding of God on the highest order. Have you even read the Bible? Hell is a chosen destination - it is God's acknowledgement of humanity's prerogative to reject Him and His provision of a place for them away from His presence - which is what they desire; for those who wish only to serve themselves, heaven would be "hell" for them. By the way, Hell may not necessarily be a place of "burning" - at least in the physical sense we think.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
As well, what qualifies you to decide that others are "delusional" in their beliefs? Your inability or unwillingness to understand their beliefs equals them having the problem? Perhaps it is you who are delusional by pretending that all that is around you simply came into being on its own. That strikes me as the epitome of delusional, wishful thinking.
Feel better, having vented away? Most people who support being "brutally honest" are generally more interested in brutality than honesty.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Your withdrawal is accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
And there's nothing brutal about telling people they're going to Hell, right?
I really don't care what people say to try and soften it up or try and justify it.
Creator of all of us sends us to hell because we dont believe in him?
i'm not buying that. It's a ridiculous concept. Would you burn your own children simply because they didnt agree with you? it's unnatural and it's sick.
I'm not talking in fact.
I find their beliefs delusional, like im sure some find mine. End of story.
I think brutally honest is when you have no concern about what impact your statements will have upon another person. It's where you take no personal responsibility for what you say. It's a buck passing strategy.
Heaps of people cloak themselves this way.
Consider the following example:
'You're going to burn in Hell if you don't accept God as your saviour. By the way, I am not responsible for the hurt, fear and distrust that I invoke through my statements.....but I will (coz I'm doing the Lord's work, afterall) if you turn to God and accept him'
Depends: if I am placing myself in the judgment seat by deciding that I think you'll be in hell, then that is wrong; only God can determine that. However, if I tell you that the logical consequences of rejecting God lead to hell, I'm doing the same thing that a pack of cigarettes does by telling you that smoking leads to cancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
OK - you've already established your intent to speak as you wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Hell is a chosen destination. God doesn't "send" people there - they choose to go there by default in their rejection of God. It's not about agreement; it's about choosing death over life. The Bible makes clear that God is the source of all Life in the universe; if you reject Him, you choose death - just as if you choose not to eat, you starve. Hell isn't an arbitrary punishment - it is the logical end for those who choose to serve themselves instead of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Again, you should read the Bible if you intend to attack the theology contained within it.
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Originally Posted by limajean
i have said it before but i will definitely say it again:
we are all NOT God's children. we are all his creation.
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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
How is it a logical consequence that not accepting leads to Hell? How is that logical at all - you have not one ounce of proof, with the exception of what, the bible?
That's like me saying that wizards are real because i have Harry Potter to prove it.
You're assuming i haven't read the Bible. At no point have i ever stated that i haven't.
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Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood
Yet again someone who speaks as if this is fact.
You are no closer to God than i am, my friend.
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Originally Posted by limajean
have you read it?
closer in what sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean