I can buy that. I do think that ultimately that comes from God, but your position is way better than moral relativism.Originally Posted by The Atheist
I can buy that. I do think that ultimately that comes from God, but your position is way better than moral relativism.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Like i said... perspective.
Not going to repeat myself again - read my posts.
Yes - infact, having a conscience is one of the main reasons we aren't all off killing each other. And science has proven that those who do, have a chemical imbalance within themselves. It's evolution. We, as the higher species have evolved, the fact that we have the ability to understand the killing another is .. to use the term loosely "bad" - has evolved from our natural instincts to protect our kind.
The Atheist is correct - it's about surviving.
But what are we "surviving" for? seems to be the question people want to know.
Spend their lives wondering and then they drop dead having not lived a second of it.
Evolution has a lot more backing and evidential support than alternative beliefs. We only have to look at ourselves and animals to see that.
Actually I thought I knew where you were going but that is another thread. Since it is instinctive to have those qualities which is a foundation to evolve upon, it is therefore instinctive to kill that which would harm us. I'll just slip into the revenge - right or wrong thread.....
Yes, but when I look at nature, animals, and children, I see that there seems to be a divine form reflected in everything. This leads me to belief in God. I am sorry you had a conflict with a Christian on here. Both Christianity and Buddhism (you said you came from a Buddhist family) preach humbleness, humility, and compassion or love. I wish we would be able to learn from each other here. I studied the Tibetan saint Milarepa fairly indepth, as well as many other Buddhist teachers and a few scriptures and sutras. I have also now been studying "Hindu" scriptures such as Bhagavad-Gita (The Song of our Lord), Srimad Bhagavatam (The beautiful Bhagavata or the story of the Fortunate One), and other scriptures such as in the Vedas Sri Isopanisad and things like this. Yet when I look at nature and when I look inward and outward, I see that things come from a divine soul. This is why that is what I believe. And I have deep faith and respect for Buddha because he taught a great path, and respect for life, compassion toward humans and compassion and ahisma, or non-violence, toward animals.
I believe in reincarnation rather than hell, and the Bhakti-vedanta philosophy also believes in karma and reincarnation. I don't think we go to hell if we die, although there are hell planets and in Buddhism there is a hell realm. I think we would get reincarnated as a human if we lived a normal life and did not do anything better or worse than normal. If we produced the karma of an animal in this life, or created the consciousness of an animal, we would take an animal's body in our next life, which is suitable for fulfilling our baser desires. (Such as one might become a tiger for the taste of flesh, a bear for the desire to hibernate, or a pigeon for the desire for sex, as pigeons have a body capable of having sex more than a thousand times a day.) As in Buddhism where there is the land of the hungry ghosts -- beings with bodies that have great desire but are unable to satisfy their desire by consuming anything -- in my religion there are beings exactly like this. A friend of mine, Jivananda, was giving class or we were just in a discussion, and he told me he knew about creatures who are very fat, very lazy, and get everything they desire, in fact anything they desire they can produce it and simply consume it, they do nothing but consume all day -- they are hogs.
I would encourage you to try to foster a spirit of openness and positivity in your next posts. One Buddhist sutra I dearly love and great respect for is the Heart Sutra. This explains the deep wisdom of the Buddha, and you have possibly heard of it or know it. All is interconnected. What this means to me, personally, is that all the forms of the universe are the same, in a way. That is, the form of the whole is also the form of the parts. Since we are all interconnected, all is, in a sense, of the essence of the Buddha. Buddha nature is our nature, and also the entire universe is Buddha. It's been said that all phenomena are the teachings of Buddha. It's also written in scripture that Buddha is equal to the realm of reality, or to the cosmos. Also in the Flower Ornament Heart Sutra it is stated that in every atom of the universe, there are oceans of world systems. All of these scriptural evidences indicate that there is more to all of this than meets the eye. Buddhist scriptures will describe a teaching, and then say if read or hear it and are not afraid, it means you have haerd it from Chenrezig in a past life. I know one is not required to believe any of the teachings of different parts of Buddhism. One idea in Buddhism is not to accept things without thinking, or in other words taking them for granted. I use this and I do not try to convert people for vegetarianism (cow protection) which I am strongly for. It's a cause of mine but I don't try to be forceful about it, for what can I say at best but - I disagree with your actions, which I used to partake in? Vegetarianism is right for me, because I cannot find any reason which would convince me it's okay to partake in eating meat. I believe in non-violence and even compassion toward animals, whom it is not necessary to kill to eat, or even be the healthist you can be..
So you don't have to believe what any teacher in Buddhism teaches, not Zen, not Pure Land, or any other. You don't have to accept dakinis, ghosts, or Bodhisattvas, although I believe they all exist and have their place.
Yogi Milarepa was a great saint, and I believe, an authentic yogi. I believe he could live in the mountain in very cold temperatures with only a cloth garment (which is what his name means) - I believe he could fly, as well as manifest the blissful Buddha-body (though this is in a way far beyond my conception). I believe he could fly as well. All of these yogic perfections are also part of Vedic knowledge and history, but they are not considered the ultimate goal. For instance there is a planet called Siddha-loka, and the Siddhas have achieved the eight kinds of materialistic, or yogic perfections. But these perfections even though they are great, do not result in the end of birth and death. In the higher planets of the spiritual worlds, the demigods have completely pure karma and many benedictions and enjoyments; but this is our main reason for being within the material universe, of birth and death, in the first place; our desire to enjoy, or enjoy separately from the Lord.
So I have great respsect and faith for the Heart Sutra and other sutras, as well as Buddhas, Bodhisattvas (the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha), and I believe there is power in sutras and mantras, but they are not the only mantras there are. In fact there are thousands upon thousands of mantras. People in the West are sometimes confused and misled by these. They are all part, reflected true or with some distortion, of the original transcendental sound, Om. Om is also the Godhead in bhakti-yoga we follow devotion to the Godhead. Yes, the Godhead is invisible from our material sense perspective, but that is because it is the Godhead. If you see violence being preached in the name of God you can be sure it is false. As false as the awful post by Mal. I know you haven't said anything as sacreligious as he; but how would you feel if someone called Lord Buddha to be insane and cruel or stupid. Maybe it would seem like nothing to you but then -- should anyone say anything like this? For Skasian, Christ is God and God is Christ, and Christ is as personal and accessible to her as the Buddha is to you are any Buddhist. Now I am a third party besides Buddhist or Christian, as there are also yet Jews, Muslims, and all others. I believe in Lord Hari as opposed to Buddha, I believe in Sri Ram instead of Allah, I believe in Krsna as well as Christos. Now please consider all I have had to say.
I am a theist but I believe in karma and reincarnation very similarly to the Buddhists. But I don't anyone should be criticized the way people have been on here recently (I particularly noticed a barrage or ganging up on Skasian) and I am calling for some deceny and respect. I am not putting blame on you any more than anyone else, but calling someone's views "Bizarre and hateful" at least in this case -- is FLATOUT personal aggression, in this case as far as I can tell completely a wrong judgement; and it is nearing demonization -- at least you are demonizing someone she feels is The Lord, who is perfect and who, even if she doesn't love, feels is more deserving of love than anyone, since they are, after all, the source of all beauty, strength, wisdom, etc. as well as all the spiritual and material worlds.
Please consider your words carefully because they do matter, just as actions matter, and be careful not to let negative energy guide your words because if you do you are feeding something which does not get smaller when it is fed.
Last edited by NikolaiI; 01-03-2009 at 01:55 AM.
Revenge?
or self defence?
because revenge isn't exactly the right word for it.
good point limajean but I thought it might fit the eye for an eye concept that everyone keeps raising. You kill my babies = I kill you. Oh well
I'll go along with that - moral relativism just doesn't stack up on its own.
That's not quite right - some people can live amoral lives without having a physical defect like an imbalance.
That does happen and it saddens me, too.
Yes, just as a lion will attack that which threatens his pride, a bear will protect his territory and dolphins will attack sharks who come too close to them.
Which reminds me of a very good one on this current derail - dolphins have been recorded as saving human lives, even though we're responsible for killing more of them than any predator.
Diver saved by dolphins?
Dolphins drive off great white?
Lifeguards swear dolphins saved them from shark attack.
There seem to be enough reputable anecdotes cases that we can accept that dolphins have indeed saved human lives. Why do they do that? Do dolphins and humans share the same god? Or is it just that we share a common enemy and they would protect a seal the same way?
I tend to go with the latter.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
That's a wonderful point and I thank you very much. While of course I believe it's wrong to kill dolphins, as wrong as it is to kill any living creature; and while of course I think dolphins and humans have the same god, I don't wish to contradict you on that point, but yet I still disagree with your idea that it is only to work against a common enemy. First I would say that you have given a good reason for us not to kill them. They do not kill us - in fact they save our lives!! Much the same way dogs have saved our lives. Now while we in the west do not eat dogs, some cultures do. Many people in the west, though they eat food which comes from slaughterhouses, are very upset or disagreeable to eating dogs, and would never do so; just as sometimes they have this feeling for horses. Because with dogs, they are very close to us here in the west and are generally considered part of the family, totally loyal, totally capable of love and affection. In fact all animals are this way and this is why I disagree with killing them. Anyway, having said all that I think dolphins have a greater reason for protecting humans... you may consider this garbage for the reason I have not met dolphins, and if you do that is valid although I hope you aren't cruel about it; but I would guess that it is more than just sharing a common enemy. Dolphins are very intelligent and it seems that animals, especially mammals, are almost always pack animals, with family units and so forth. Some mammals like bears are very dangerous, or even lions are terribly dangerous. But if you simply connect the lion with the house cat, you can see we can have relationships with animals like cats and dogs -- it shows it's possible, and so dolphins may protect humans for more than just going after the shark or whale. But then it may just be to protect another enemy of their enemy - that would make sense as well.
[Edit: I didn't mean that animals are almost always pack-animals but that mammals are. Clearly snakes, etc. are not.
[Note:... I don't mean to be preachy or forceful in anything. I really love this site and I have learned a great deal from people. I come here to learn. But this had gotten the point I thought something needed to be said. (Still talking about the posts a little while back.) I hope I have done so in a positive if not healthy way, rather than a negative or unhealthy way. I don't think my way is better nor do I think it is m job to sort these things out but I hope I was free to input. I don't mean to put blame on one or another, except for some very personally aggressive and mean comments, but I wished to say no one is an extremist... and all are free and welcome to common sense, it is the property of all. I know it might seem like I am going on so incredibly long and if my post bothers you I apologize, just don't read it, but if we have missed such an incredibly obvious point as - we don't know each other personally, so it is very wrong to judge someone as an extremist or anything else, like incompepetent, etc.; then I don't mind going to lengths to explain the simple idea. So it's uncalled for to call names. We are all good, intelligent people, looking to cultivate the good in ourselves and others. If we can't discuss something for some emotional reason, then just refrain.
And on a more personal opinion, I would not call anyone on this thread or forum bad, first because I have no reason to, and second because I am not in a position or habit of judging. It would be hypocritical to judge, and also, Judge not and be not judged.]
The Atheist, sorry for going back and forth on topics and I hope I didn't write too long of posts on your thread.
Hm, I am afraid or I hope I do not come off as wishing only to talk about myself, LoL!
Last edited by NikolaiI; 01-03-2009 at 02:04 AM.
Lastly, do you like extremists - what they have done? Then do not give them a right to existence. When we think of something, it gives it a right of existence. Negative thoughts are negative energy. We might think that it is only a thought, but thinking of it gives it a right of existence, the beginning of formation and existence. Same with suggestion (positive or negative), so please do not call anyone an extremist because no one here is. Please consider.
[QUOTE=
Which reminds me of a very good one on this current derail - dolphins have been recorded as saving human lives, even though we're responsible for killing more of them than any predator.
.[/QUOTE]
Are dolphins altruistic then? Hasn't it been argued that there is no such thing as altruism? I am not a very deep thinker. In fact I posted an article on another website today and was told I am incredibly naive...
I suppose there are no dolphins in hell?
Does that make sense?
Hahahaha... well, no, there are no dolphins in hell...
No such thing? No I think there is such thing as altruism.
I think dolphins are amazing but I know I might put too much into it subjectively. Don't forget they might not know of the other dolphins which were killed.
Don't forget there are many dolphins who may have passed up an opportunity to save a human!
I really enjoyed reading that, and realize i probably did come off a little strong with many of the things i said. I realize that her beliefs are her own, even though they may seem very strange to me. I have never been able to fully accept certain things about Christianity - I don't think I ever will. But, that aside, I don't want to come off as someone who sounds very ignorant - because i'm not, far from it. Sometimes i can't express myself quite as clearly as id like to when it comes to matters like these - particulary in matters close to my heart.
What i loved about buddhism was the ability to be anything you wanted to be - yet still allow buddhist faith in your life. You could be a christian, and yet be a buddhist in the same light. But..that's an entirely different subject..
Thanks for your comment - much appreciated.
Last edited by Zee.; 01-03-2009 at 04:43 AM.
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