The Aeneid Discussion Group

If Virgil (LitNet Virgil) doesn't mind, I though I'd get started on Book IV. Aeneas finishes his story at the end of Book III, and the next book describes the relationship between Aeneas and Dido. It's one of the more popular sections of The Aeneid, so I hope people will come back to discuss it. Anyway, here's:

Book IV

http://stoa.files.wordpress.com/2007...and-aeneas.jpg

Aeneas at Dido's Court by Guerin 1815

I'll start with a summary, and move on from there. Book IV is the conclusion of the mini-tragedy begun in Book I. This part of the story is not directly connected with the founding of Rome, so it can be best understood as a separate unit. Book II and III which do describe Aeneas' progress from Troy to Italy fit much more into the epic's plot, but this section stands alone as a diversion away from the main story. Book I introduces the characters and acts as the exposition in the mini-tragedy, while Book IV contains most of the action and the resolution. If we're using Freytag's analysis, that means the rising action, climax, falling action, and denouement all fall under Book IV.

The rising action, everything up to the spread of rumors (1-179), describes the growth of Dido's and Aeneas' affection for each other. Mutual identity is the basis for their love. Both lovers are widowed exiles looking to establish new kingdoms. While Venus assists in enticing Dido, I wonder whether this trick was even necessary. Aeneas and Dido are so similar that they couldn't fail to be attractive to each other. Vergil (I'll use the alternate English spelling to refer to the poet) even heightens the similarities with a series of images and allusions. He compares Aeneas to Apollo and Dido to Apollo's twin Diana. Aeneas is the sun to the poet, and Dido the moon. Complementary or identical features become the dominant characteristics in each character in Book IV. Eventually the infatuation culminates in their romance in the cave

The crisis--everything up to the confrontation between A and D (173-296)--is set in motion by the spread of Rumor. The reports of Aeneas's and Dido's love affair reach the jealous King Iarbas who had designs on Dido himself. Outraged, he demands that Jove should get rid of Aeneas. The God is angered that Aeneas has stopped his journey for Italy, and he dispatches Mercury to push the Trojan hero to his goal. Aeneas reluctantly acquiesces. Dido, meanwhile, hears of Aeneas' plan to leave, and calls him to her court.

The falling action includes the confrontation between Aeneas and Dido (296-500). Dido accuses Aeneas of betrayal and entreats him to stay, if only until the weather improves. One certainly sympathizes Dido in this scene, and many of us may even agree with her attacks on Aeneas.

Eventually the story reaches it's resolution (500-705). An utterly devastated Dido stabs herself to put an end to her suffering. The Tyrians lament their now uncertain fate, and Aeneas sails away remarkably calm.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...ofDido1625.jpg
The Death of Dido by Guercino 1625

Love and Empire: The Virgilian Superimposition of the Collective and Posterity

Love, the mechanism of cohesion within the Aenead, it is the driving force of Aeneas, and a fervency that is projected and radiated by Virgil. Not only does love have a motivating position within this tragic, yet glorious narration, but there is a gradation that pervades the story, love has frequency; the lower stratum of this stratified gradation is inhabited by the common sort of love, or romantically unifying fervency, and the higher elevation of this stratified stage is populated with a love of a superior caliber. This love, transcendental patriotism, the love of country, the unifying fervency of the collective—the key element of concentration that is a heavenly ordained mission, duty, and objective, directly relating to Empire (not only the abstraction, but also to the actual Roman Empire)—is the crescendo of the story. The Virgilian conception of soul depends on this love; it demands this dedication, this allegiance to society, to civilization, which is the immortalizing mechanism of the culture, the progenitor (Aeneas), and the constituent.

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Originally Posted by ryi5005

Love and Empire: The Virgilian Superimposition of the Collective and Posterity

Love, the mechanism of cohesion within the Aenead, it is the driving force of Aeneas, and a fervency that is projected and radiated by Virgil. Not only does love have a motivating position within this tragic, yet glorious narration, but there is a gradation that pervades the story, love has frequency; the lower stratum of this stratified gradation is inhabited by the common sort of love, or romantically unifying fervency, and the higher elevation of this stratified stage is populated with a love of a superior caliber. This love, transcendental patriotism, the love of country, the unifying fervency of the collective—the key element of concentration that is a heavenly ordained mission, duty, and objective, directly relating to Empire (not only the abstraction, but also to the actual Roman Empire)—is the crescendo of the story. The Virgilian conception of soul depends on this love; it demands this dedication, this allegiance to society, to civilization, which is the immortalizing mechanism of the culture, the progenitor (Aeneas), and the constituent.

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The premise of your paper is strong. There's plenty in the Aeneid to support those claims. Even outside of the Aeneid evidence is easy to find. Much of what separates the Eclogues from the Georgics is that idealized love you're bringing up. I encourage you to stick with your topic, but without knowing what kind of paper you're writing I can't be very specific with my advice. Is it a High School or college essay? Are you expected to do research? Were you told the paper had to be a particular length?

Staying very general, I can make a few suggestions. First, you should narrow your argument. Is the paper about the subordination of certain forms of love under others, or is it about Vergil's conception of the soul? While those two topics are somewhat complementary, your paper might lose focus if you try to talk about both simultaneously. Pick one argument for your paper, and write thoroughly on that. The other might work as a conclusion, but it shouldn't get in the way of your main argument.

Also, you might help yourself if you expand your definition of love beyond patriotism and romance. Think about Aeneas' impulse to fight in the battle at Troy or Aeneas' attachment to his father. You might include these feelings in your discussion of love.

The last idea: check the structure of the Aeneid in relationship to your argument about love. Does Aeneas progress from one form of love to another? Are the forms of love presented in any particular order? These may be good questions to investigate.

Hope the paper goes well.

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Originally Posted by ryi5005

Love and Empire: The Virgilian Superimposition of the Collective and Posterity

Love, the mechanism of cohesion within the Aenead, it is the driving force of Aeneas, and a fervency that is projected and radiated by Virgil. Not only does love have a motivating position within this tragic, yet glorious narration, but there is a gradation that pervades the story, love has frequency; the lower stratum of this stratified gradation is inhabited by the common sort of love, or romantically unifying fervency, and the higher elevation of this stratified stage is populated with a love of a superior caliber. This love, transcendental patriotism, the love of country, the unifying fervency of the collective—the key element of concentration that is a heavenly ordained mission, duty, and objective, directly relating to Empire (not only the abstraction, but also to the actual Roman Empire)—is the crescendo of the story. The Virgilian conception of soul depends on this love; it demands this dedication, this allegiance to society, to civilization, which is the immortalizing mechanism of the culture, the progenitor (Aeneas), and the constituent.

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I agree with Quark's suggestions. I think that is a good idea for a paper. I would make clear up front what you mean by love. Yes, this could be a solid paper. How long of a paper were you projecting?

I'm glad you started Book IV Quark. I needed a kick in the bhind. ;)

Within this thread we've already discussed the three dimensionality of the two major characters and how Virgil presents Dido's femine view on par with a male view. So I wanted to concentrate my points about Book IV to two other themes. First is again the religious theme.

The Book opens with Dido telling us of the vow she made to her dead husband to remain faithful. Notice how she places this vow in the context of moral laws:

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"I pray that the earth gape deep enough to take me down
or the almighty Father blast me with one bolt to the shades
the pale, glimmering shades in hell, the pit of night,
before I dishonor you, my conscience, break your laws."
l. 32-35)

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But her sister Anna persuades her otherwise in a way I think that would have been shocking to Roman readers.

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...But Anna answered:
"dear one, dearer than light to me, your sister,
would you waste away, grieving your youth away, alone,
never to know the joy of children, all the gifts of love?
Do you really believe that's what the dust desires,
the ghosts in their ashen tombs?"
(l. 39-44)

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First we see the contrast to Aeneas. Aeneas throughout the epic sacrifices for the greater good, but here Anna outlines the temptation that Dido is under, almost serves it on a plate, and Dido we see later submits to the temptation. She doesn't sacrifice in the manner that Aeneas does. But what i think would be particularly shocking to Romans would be this breaking of her vow to the dead. "Do you really believe that's what the dust desires/the ghosts in their ashen tombs?" Roman religion was not quite the same as Greek religion. Some have portrayed the Roman religion the same as the ancient Greek's only with the names changed. No, that's not right. The Romans had an element of worship for one's ancestor's, where the spirit's of one's dead ancestor's rose to the level of diety. For Anna to undermine a vow to a dead ancestor (and notice how her phrasing is couched in reference to the dead, with dust and ghosts and ashen tombs) is sacriligious. No good can come of breaking this vow. I continue to be amazed at how religious a work this is.

I'll save my other point on Book IV for either tonight or tomorrow.

Virgil: I think I'm the idiot savant.:lol: I haven't been participated in this thread, because I couldn't find the book; I forgot it was on Litnet.:(

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Originally Posted by Virgil

The Book opens with Dido telling us of the vow she made to her dead husband to remain faithful. Notice how she places this vow in the context of moral laws:

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She does make that rather solemn vow in moral terms, and it's bolstered with all sorts of religious implication. A Roman audience probably would have considered her fidelity toward Sychaeus noble and divinely important. Today, though, readers may view her determination as cold-hearted and extreme. A hurt lover vowing never to love again is common occurrence in more contemporary fiction, and usually the reader is drawn into wishing the character would forget their past. With these examples in mind, we might consider Dido's speech a little Miss Haversham-like.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But her sister Anna persuades her otherwise in a way I think that would have been shocking to Roman readers.

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I think Roman readers would have considered Anna's argument specious, but I don't know if they would be outraged. Anna isn't telling her sister to disregard her obligations to Sychaeus; she's merely reinterpreting them so as to sanction her loving Aeneas. There is some disrespect in her tone which may have offended some, but I don't think it would have shocked anyone.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

The Romans had an element of worship for one's ancestor's, where the spirit's of one's dead ancestor's rose to the level of diety. For Anna to undermine a vow to a dead ancestor (and notice how her phrasing is couched in reference to the dead, with dust and ghosts and ashen tombs) is sacriligious.

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Remember that Sychaeus is Dido's husband and not her ancestor.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

First we see the contrast to Aeneas. Aeneas throughout the epic sacrifices for the greater good, but here Anna outlines the temptation that Dido is under, almost serves it on a plate, and Dido we see later submits to the temptation. She doesn't sacrifice in the manner that Aeneas does.

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That's right, but "submits to the temptation" makes it seem like she's making a decision--like there's two choices and she picks the wrong one. Decisions are not what separate Aeneas from Dido. It's the calm, collected manner which makes Aeneas able to leave Carthage. In an extended simile Vergil compares Aeneas to a strong-rooted oak tree:

Sed nullis ille movetur
fletibus, aut voces ullas tractabilis audit;
fata obstant placidasque viri deus obstruit auris.
Ac velut annoso validam cum robore quercum
Alpini Boreae nunc hinc nunc flatibus illinc
eruere inter se certant; it stridor, et altae
consternunt terram concusso stipite frondes;
ipsa haeret scopulis et quantum vertice ad auras
aetherias, tantum radice in Tartara tendit;
haud secus adsiduis hinc atque hinc vocibus heros
tunditur, et magno persentit pectore curas (iv, 438-48)

No tears, no pleading, move him ; no man can yield
When a god stops his ears. As northern winds
Sweep over Alpine mountains, in their fury
Fighting each other to uproot an oak-tree
Whose ancient strength endures against their roaring
And he trunk shudders and the leaves come down
Strewing the ground, but the old tree clings to the mountain,
Its roots as deep toward hell as its crest toward heaven,
And still holds on--even so, Aeneas, shaken
By storm-blasts of appeal, by voices calling
From every side, is tossed and torn, and steady.

Dido, on the other hand, is "frenzied as Orestes" and "mad as Pentheus." Her unstable mind is what separates her from her Trojan counterpart. And, it's not as though Dido weighs two options and goes with the wrong one. She doesn't make a choice at all.

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

Virgil: I think I'm the idiot savant.:lol: I haven't been participated in this thread, because I couldn't find the book; I forgot it was on Litnet.:(

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D'oh.

Hey great response Quark. :thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by Quark

She does make that rather solemn vow in moral terms, and it's bolstered with all sorts of religious implication. A Roman audience probably would have considered her fidelity toward Sychaeus noble and divinely important. Today, though, readers may view her determination as cold-hearted and extreme. A hurt lover vowing never to love again is common occurrence in more contemporary fiction, and usually the reader is drawn into wishing the character would forget their past. With these examples in mind, we might consider Dido's speech a little Miss Haversham-like.

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I wouldn't say Miss Haversham-like. There's a whole social context that affects this, and I'll get to that as my other point of Book IV. I don't look at fiction or any art for that matter outside of its historical time and place. I don't think Virgil had in mind today's concept of love.

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I think Roman readers would have considered Anna's argument specious, but I don't know if they would be outraged. Anna isn't telling her sister to disregard her obligations to Sychaeus; she's merely reinterpreting them so as to sanction her loving Aeneas. There is some disrespect in her tone which may have offended some, but I don't think it would have shocked anyone.

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Perhaps. I'm not a cultural expert on the period. I used the word "outrage" to express they would have reacted to it. I can't claim to what extent.

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Remember that Sychaeus is Dido's husband and not her ancestor.

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That is a very good point. I don't know how much difference that makes.

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That's right, but "submits to the temptation" makes it seem like she's making a decision--like there's two choices and she picks the wrong one. Decisions are not what separate Aeneas from Dido. It's the calm, collected manner which makes Aeneas able to leave Carthage. In an extended simile Vergil compares Aeneas to a strong-rooted oak tree:

Sed nullis ille movetur
fletibus, aut voces ullas tractabilis audit;
fata obstant placidasque viri deus obstruit auris.
Ac velut annoso validam cum robore quercum
Alpini Boreae nunc hinc nunc flatibus illinc
eruere inter se certant; it stridor, et altae
consternunt terram concusso stipite frondes;
ipsa haeret scopulis et quantum vertice ad auras
aetherias, tantum radice in Tartara tendit;
haud secus adsiduis hinc atque hinc vocibus heros
tunditur, et magno persentit pectore curas (iv, 438-48)

No tears, no pleading, move him ; no man can yield
When a god stops his ears. As northern winds
Sweep over Alpine mountains, in their fury
Fighting each other to uproot an oak-tree
Whose ancient strength endures against their roaring
And he trunk shudders and the leaves come down
Strewing the ground, but the old tree clings to the mountain,
Its roots as deep toward hell as its crest toward heaven,
And still holds on--even so, Aeneas, shaken
By storm-blasts of appeal, by voices calling
From every side, is tossed and torn, and steady.

Dido, on the other hand, is "frenzied as Orestes" and "mad as Pentheus." Her unstable mind is what separates her from her Trojan counterpart. And, it's not as though Dido weighs two options and goes with the wrong one. She doesn't make a choice at all.

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Oh the contrast is definitely intended. I completely agree.

I got it, I got it! I'll try and catch up, since you guys are only in the fourth book of twelve.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

There's a whole social context that affects this, and I'll get to that as my other point of Book IV.

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I'll wait for your second point, then. Is it also about religion?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Perhaps. I'm not a cultural expert on the period. I used the word "outrage" to express they would have reacted to it. I can't claim to what extent.

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It's certain they would have reacted to it, but in what way and to what extent is the question. If Anna had crossed some religious line, then the audience would be shocked. I don't think she does that, though. You're right that respect for the dead was a central idea in Roman culture, but Anna doesn't ask Dido to ignore Sychaeus' wishes. All she does is reinterpret them to make Dido's relationship with Aeneas permissible. Anna's questions imply that Dido's husband would want her to be happy, instead of faithful. A Roman audience may have found the reasoning implausible, but I don't think they would have been shocked by it. Like I mentioned before, the tone is irreverent, but the argument itself stays with the bounds of decorum.

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I got it, I got it! I'll try and catch up, since you guys are only in the fourth book of twelve.

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You shouldn't have any problems catching up. Feel free to post any comments you might have on the first three books, too. I'd respond to them at least.

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I got it, I got it! I'll try and catch up, since you guys are only in the fourth book of twelve.

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Glad to have you aboard Nick. We're going so slow you should have no trouble. :)

I have the Allen Mandelbaum translation, which has an introduction that I plan on sharing with you in the future (a few paragraphs at most).

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Originally Posted by Quark

You shouldn't have any problems catching up. Feel free to post any comments you might have on the first three books, too. I'd respond to them at least.

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I'm not too familiar with Greek mythology, but I figure that it will all make sense in the end. There are so many names mentioned, I get confused and sometimes don't know who was speaking until I've completed the section.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Glad to have you aboard Nick. We're going so slow you should have no trouble. :)

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I'm on the second book now; I wish I was reading it as I write this. I'm captivated. I can't say I have been analyzing each line. I've been reading it like a thriller; I find it to be a page turner. When it comes to the gods, the drama never ends. Maybe the themes will come to me on reflection, but I'm just enjoying the story right now. I feel like a child again, watching those Saturday epics on television. I love a good hero.:thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I'm not too familiar with Greek mythology, but I figure that it will all make sense in the end. There are so many names mentioned, I get confused and sometimes don't know who was speaking until I've completed the section.

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Thankfully, the Aeneid has a smaller cast than the Iliad. There's only a handful of Gods in Vergil's epic, as opposed to the full complement included in the Greek epics. The only divine players you really have to know are Jove, Venus, Juno, and Mercury. And, while there is a lengthy history for each of these characters all you need to know in the Aeneid is their relationship to the hero. A quick rundown should help.

Venus--Aeneas' mother. She helps Aeneas to Italy.

Jove--head God who promises Venus that Aeneas will reach Italy and found a new, powerful kingdom

Juno--bent on stopping Aeneas from founding the new empire

Mercury--Jove's personal errand boy

These Gods have wider roles in the mythology and in the epic beyond this, but that's all you have to know to understand what's going on. There are a few others that I didn't mention who also figure in--like Cupid or Vulcan. They don't figure prominently much, though. When they do, it's easy to tell what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I'm on the second book now; I wish I was reading it as I write this. I'm captivated. I can't say I have been analyzing each line. I've been reading it like a thriller; I find it to be a page turner. When it comes to the gods, the drama never ends. Maybe the themes will come to me on reflection, but I'm just enjoying the story right now. I feel like a child again, watching those Saturday epics on television. I love a good hero.:thumbs_up

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The second book is exciting--quite violent, too. Some people have suggested that Vergil must have seen battle in order to write about its chaos so well. Did you think he may have gone over the top, though? The scene with Priam is pretty grisly. Were you alright with how gruesome it got?

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Originally Posted by Quark

Thankfully, the Aeneid has a smaller cast than the Iliad. There's only a handful of Gods in Vergil's epic, as opposed to the full complement included in the Greek epics. The only divine players you really have to know are Jove, Venus, Juno, and Mercury. And, while there is a lengthy history for each of these characters all you need to know in the Aeneid is their relationship to the hero. A quick rundown should help.

Venus--Aeneas' mother. She helps Aeneas to Italy.

Jove--head God who promises Venus that Aeneas will reach Italy and found a new, powerful kingdom

Juno--bent on stopping Aeneas from founding the new empire

Mercury--Jove's personal errand boy

These Gods have wider roles in the mythology and in the epic beyond this, but that's all you have to know to understand what's going on. There are a few others that I didn't mention who also figure in--like Cupid or Vulcan. They don't figure prominently much, though. When they do, it's easy to tell what they're doing.



The second book is exciting--quite violent, too. Some people have suggested that Vergil must have seen battle in order to write about its chaos so well. Did you think he may have gone over the top, though? The scene with Priam is pretty grisly. Were you alright with how gruesome it got?

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I spent the weekend performing the traditional writer ritual of consuming alcohol, but I finished the second book today.

Thanks for the rundown.

I don't think it was over the top. Aeneis was telling the tale and gave details you would expect from a soldier. I enjoyed Priam's fall, or the telling of it. When Aeneis says that Priam's trunk lays on the shore, does he mean his body was taken to the beach?

Just checking back in to see how this discussion is going. The many demands on my time of late have been keeping me away, but I'll see if I can carve out a little time in the coming days to make some remarks on book IV. Glad to see Nick's joining in. Don't know that I buy Dido as Mrs. Havisham, but I doubt I'll forget it soon. Now I have this image in my mind of Mrs. Havisham standing on a funerary pyre crazily crying out STELLA. :lol:

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When Aeneis says that Priam's trunk lays on the shore, does he mean his body was taken to the beach?

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Yes, his decapitated corpse evidently ends up on the beach. I think the idea is that they're piling up the dead on the shore outside the walls of the city, and he ends up a nameless corpse among the slaughtered. I've always imagined they threw the body off a wall to the beach below, but I don't think there's anything in the text about that, just my imagination.

Anyway, good discussion so far on book IV. Even after having read it several times, it's almost impossible not to get completely swept up in the intensity of the ending to that book. Interesting that Virgil focused right away on the idea of the breaking of the vow. I don't really know exactly how shocking that would have been to a Roman audience either, though it's never struck me as something that would be way out of the bounds of acceptability. What was the second point you wanted to make, Virg? I may have a few things to add, but maybe we'll let Nick catch up a bit?

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

When Aeneas says that Priam's trunk lays on the shore, does he mean his body was taken to the beach?

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I think so. The disrespect for his body is supposed to be reminiscent of the taking of Hector's corpse which Priam retrieves at the end of the Iliad. When Aeneas witnesses this, though, he's reminded less of Hector and more of his own family. The death of Priam becomes a warning to Aeneas that he should protect his family, or else they're all going to end up as trunks laying on the shore.

Petrarch just posted something--not two minutes ago--that shouldn't get buried. I'll respond to it once I post again in the Lawrence thread.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Don't know that I buy Dido as Mrs. Havisham, but I doubt I'll forget it soon.

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Well I wasn't saying Dido is Miss Havisham. Virgil and I were talking about reactions to Dido's vow when I suggested that a modern audience might be more skeptical of Dido's determination not to fall in love with Aeneas. They might interpret it less as nobility and more as bitterness. Miss Havisham was just the first instance I could think of for a disappointed lover souring on the idea of love.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Now I have this image in my mind of Mrs. Havisham standing on a funerary pyre crazily crying out STELLA. :lol:

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Oh, now you're just being silly.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Yes, his decapitated corpse evidently ends up on the beach. I think the idea is that they're piling up the dead on the shore outside the walls of the city, and he ends up a nameless corpse among the slaughtered. I've always imagined they threw the body off a wall to the beach below, but I don't think there's anything in the text about that, just my imagination.

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I'm not sure on the logistics of how they get Priam's corpse from the city to the shore. The Aeneid doesn't say. I like the throwing them over the wall idea. Let's stick with that.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Anyway, good discussion so far on book IV. Even after having read it several times, it's almost impossible not to get completely swept up in the intensity of the ending to that book.

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Wait, which intensity do you mean? Is it the intensity of Dido's passion, or just the intensity and pathos of the tragedy in general?

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

What was the second point you wanted to make, Virg? I may have a few things to add, but maybe we'll let Nick catch up a bit?

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Ah yes. The second point I wished to make was how Virgil integrates the political implications of Dido's love. The balance of power that she had masterfuly created to hold Africa under Carthiginian sway collapses. After she makes love with Aeneas in the cave,

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Straightway Rumor flies through Libya's great cities,
Rumor, swiftest of all the evils in the world.
(l. 219-220)

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and

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Iarbas--son of an Africa nymph whom Jove had raped--
raised the god a hundred splendid temples across
the king's wide realm, a hundred alters too,
consecrating the sacred fires
that never died, eternal sentinels of the gpds.
The earth was rich with blood of slaughtered herds
and the temple doorways wreathed with riots of flowers.
This Iarbas, driven wild, set ablaze by the bitter rumor,
approached an altar, they say as the gods hovered round...
...So King Iarbas appealed,
his hand clutching the altar, and Jove Almighty heard...
(l. 248-275 and beyond)

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I don't have the time to type out the entire passage, but we can see that her willing to marry someone, after she had soothed the political concerns around her causes rebellion and war. Again to Romans, a nation obsessed with governing their empire, this was a warning and a value professing self sacrifice for the good of the nation. It is a sacrifice that Aeneas makes and she can't.

Those are the two points. But I must say there is such fabulous writing in this Book. Dido's confrontation with Aeneas, her exasperations, the funeral pyre, and Juno's sympathy. Let me type out that last part, because Fagles does a beautiful translation. Dido has just burned herself on the pyre:

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Then Juno in all her power, filled with pity
for Dido's agonizing death, her labor long and hard,
sped Iris down from Olympus to release her spirit
wrestling now in a deathlock with her limbs.
Since she was dying a death not fated or deserved,
no, tormented, before her day, in a blaze of passion--
Proserpina had yet to pluck a golden lock from her head
and commit her life to the Styx and the dark world below.
So Iris, glistening dew, comes skimmering down from the sky
on gilded wings, trailing showers of iridescence shimmering
into the sun, and hovering over Dido's head, declares:
"So commanded, I take this lock as a sacred gift
to the God of Death, and I relealse you from your body."

With that, she cut the lock with her hand and all at once
the warmth slipped away, the life dissolves in the winds.
(ll. 862-876)

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That is just great, great poetry!!

I don't believe that Dido's impiety would have shocked the Roman's of Virgil's day. Those that are easily shocked will always find something to be shocked about, but let's not forget that he writes just after Catullus and contemporary with Ovid and his Amores. Of course, Ovid was exiled by Octavian, so we know that he was very conservative, and when you are living in a dictatorship there's only one opinion that matters. Although in recent memory, during Caesar's Gallic triumph, his soldiers marched alongside his chariot singing:

Home we bring our bald whoremonger;
Romans, lock your wives away!
All the bags of gold you lent him
Went his Gallic tarts to pay.
-Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, Robert Graves translation, p. 36.

That could just be an example of the vulgar plebeian masses of the time, and not indicative of the literate aristocracy. Yet I'll venture a guess, and say that the average Roman noble was less like Octavian and more like his daughter Julia. When she was asked how she could have so many affairs and yet her children all looked like her husband, she replied that she took on new passengers only when the boat was already full. Roman society was anything but staid.

As for Priam's death, and the way his headless trunk lies on the beach, that's a reference to Pompey. During the Civil War, retreating from the battle of Pharsalus (48 B.C.), Pompey flees to Egypt where he is murdered by order of the Pharoa. His head is chopped off as a trophy for Caesar, and his body left unburied by the shore. This was considered an affront to Roman nobility, as it was the policy in that day that no foreigner could kill a Roman without massive repercussions. It's one more reminder to the people in Virgil's time of the score they had to settle with Egypt, and it echoes the Dido Cleopatra theme we've mentioned earlier.

I do love that ending of Dido's:

Let him see the unmerited deaths of those
Around and with him, and accepting peace
On unjust terms, let him not, even so,
Enjoy his kingdom or the life he longs for,
But fall in battle before his time and lie
Unburied on the sand!
Book IV, ln. 858-863, Fitzgerald translation

When I first read that, it rang true and reminded me of nothing so much as an angry voicemail message an ex would leave on an answering machine. It has the strength of real feeling, of passion, and anger. Only later would I put it into context with other invective poetry of the time:

Let earth deny its fruits to you, the rivers their waves,
let the winds and the breezes deny you their breath.
Let there be no heat to the sun, for you, no light for you
from the moon, let all the bright stars forsake your eyes.
Nor let fire or air offer themselves to you,
nor earth or ocean grant you a way.
Exiled, wander helpless, across the alien thresholds,
seek out scant nourishment with a trembling mouth.
Body never free of ills, mind of grievous sickness,
night be worse than day for you, and day than night.
Ibis, by Ovid, ln. 107-116, Translated by A.S. Kline
http://www.tonykline.co.uk/PITBR/Latin/Ibis.htm

This section of Ovid's Ibis is called The Denial of Benefits. It comes after the naming of his enemy, an invocation to the gods, and begins the Litany of Maledictions. The litany follows the same prayer form one would use to bless someone except with curses. It runs through an enormous list of ancient torments, often with examples from mythology. The invective even goes so far as to claim that if Ovid should die before his enemy, then he will haunt him from beyond the grave. This vow of undying hatred is interesting. We will see Dido making good on a similar vow when Aeneas meets her again in the underworld and she turns away from him without speaking. Ovid and Dido deliver the curse in much the same vein. They know that it's useless to scream, but they cannot help themselves. It's purgative, an outlet for their suffering, but ultimately futile.

One thing I've been thinking about in Book IV is that Aeneas' mother and patron is Venus (Goddess of Love), but that his antagonist is Juno (Goddess of Marriage). It makes sense that Aeneas' first wife Creusa should die, and that his marriage to Dido should be marred. Then when Aeneas comes to Latium his marriage to Lavinia should not be smooth sailing. He falls in love easily enough, but he can't seem to seel the deal.

Also, before we pass into book V, I'd like to recommend Christopher Marlowe's Dido, Queen of Carthage to everybody. I think he tells the story even better than Virgil, except for his ridiculous ending.

Good thoughts Mortal. Glad you joined the discussion. Yes, I know, I exaggerated with the word "shocked." I think I said that earlier. But it does violate Roman values, whether everyone followed them or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Ah yes. The second point I wished to make was how Virgil integrates the political implications of Dido's love. The balance of power that she had masterfuly created to hold Africa under Carthiginian sway collapses.

I don't have the time to type out the entire passage, but we can see that her willing to marry someone, after she had soothed the political concerns around her causes rebellion and war. Again to Romans, a nation obsessed with governing their empire, this was a warning and a value professing self sacrifice for the good of the nation. It is a sacrifice that Aeneas makes and she can't.

---

The neglected kingdom does suffer. Carthage doesn't just lose its allies, it also stops working. Dido's distraction changes the city that was compared to an industrious hive of bees in Book I to a lazy, half-finished metropolis. Vergil writes:

The towers no longer rise, the youth are slack
In drill for arms, the cranes and derricks rusting,
Walls halt halfway to heaven.

It's hard to imagine how an amorous queen could prevent her workers from completing their tasks, but it's poetry--it doesn't have to make sense. I suppose it's meant to indicate that the workers follow her example and grow lax with their duties. In any case, you're right Virgil. Dido's lack of devotion has many political repercussions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Those are the two points. But I must say there is such fabulous writing in this Book. Dido's confrontation with Aeneas, her exasperations, the funeral pyre, and Juno's sympathy. Let me type out that last part, because Fagles does a beautiful translation. Dido has just burned herself on the pyre:

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So, is Book II still your favorite Book?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

I don't believe that Dido's impiety would have shocked the Roman's of Virgil's day

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

let's not forget that he writes just after Catullus and contemporary with Ovid and his Amores.

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Yeah, I begin to think that Dido is a rather tame, conservative portrayal of love in comparison with some of Vergil's contemporaries. Vergil places restrictions on Dido's love, and constantly channels her affection back within appropriate lines. While Catullus expresses a desire to be with Lesibia simply for the pleasure of intimacy, Dido's love is much more fixated on other more respectable gains, such as a child. At the height of her conflict with Aeneas, she even suggests motherhood as an acceptable consolation for losing her lover:

At least, if but a child were born
Of me to you, before you were gone,
At very least, a little son
Still to recall your face to me. (327-30)

In a situation which should bring out Dido's need for Aeneas, Vergil diverts Dido's passion into a more acceptable desire, motherhood. Far from insulting sensibilities, this should have been comforting to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

As for Priam's death, and the way his headless trunk lies on the beach, that's a reference to Pompey.

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Yes, there probably is an allusion here to the legend associated with Pompey's death. Comparing Priam's demise to that of another well-known and gruesome death would heighten the outrage and disgust readers would have for the way they treat Priam's body. I don't think that Vergil is making a political point or drawing any other parallels between Priam and Pompey, though. I know some scholars and critics have tried to argue Priam is Pompey, but that doesn't make much sense. After all, that would make Pyrrus like Caesar. Most likely, the allusion is made to compare the dishonorable fate of Priam's body with Priam's unfortunate corpse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

I do love that ending of Dido's:
When I first read that, it rang true and reminded me of nothing so much as an angry voicemail message an ex would leave on an answering machine.

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That's funny. Have you had many angry, Dido-like phone messages? I wish my ex-girlfriends could be so eloquent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quark

The neglected kingdom does suffer. Carthage doesn't just lose its allies, it also stops working. Dido's distraction changes the city that was compared to an industrious hive of bees in Book I to a lazy, half-finished metropolis.

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I hadn't noticed that passage before. Thank you for pointing it out.

As exercise the bees in flow'ry plains,
When winter past, and summer scarce begun,
Invites them forth to labor in the sun;
Some lead their youth abroad, while some condense
Their liquid store, and some in cells dispense;
Some at the gate stand ready to receive
The golden burthen, and their friends relieve;
All with united force, combine to drive
The lazy drones from the laborious hive:
With envy stung, they view each other's deeds;
The fragrant work with diligence proceeds.
from Aeneid, Book I, Dryden Translation
http://classics.mit.edu/Virgil/aeneid.1.i.html

That's just like this passage from Virgil's Georgics:

Others the while lead forth the full-grown young,
Their country's hope, and others press and pack
The thrice repured honey, and stretch their cells
To bursting with the clear-strained nectar sweet.
Some, too, the wardship of the gates befalls,
Who watch in turn for showers and cloudy skies,
Or ease returning labourers of their load,
Or form a band and from their precincts drive
The drones, a lazy herd. How glows the work!
from Georgics, Book IV, ? Translation
http://classics.mit.edu/Virgil/georgics.4.iv.html

In those passages, the bees are a symbol of asexuality, industry, and empire. And as long as we are talking about Virgil and his bees, I might as well mention how Dante uses the same image for his angels:

Even as a swarm of bees, that sinks in flowers
One moment, and the next returns again
To where its labour is to sweetness turned,

Sank into the great flower, that is adorned
With leaves so many, and thence reascended
To where its love abideth evermore.

Their faces had they all of living flame,
And wings of gold, and all the rest so white
No snow unto that limit doth attain.

From bench to bench, into the flower descending,
They carried something of the peace and ardour
Which by the fanning of their flanks they won.
from Paradiso, Canto 31, Longfellow Translation
http://www.everypoet.com/Archive/poe...dante_x_31.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

That's just like this passage from Virgil's Georgics:

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Yeah, you can find much of the imagery in the Aeneid in its precursor the Georgics. The bees get a whole Book in the Georgics, I think. In it, Vergil sets up both of the bee similes we get in the Aeneid. The first comparison he makes is between laborious workers and drones. Later, in both poems, the poet associates two hives fighting with a war between states.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

In those passages, the bees are a symbol of asexuality, industry, and empire. And as long as we are talking about Virgil and his bees, I might as well mention how Dante uses the same image for his angels:

Even as a swarm of bees, that sinks in flowers
One moment, and the next returns again
To where its labour is to sweetness turned,

Sank into the great flower, that is adorned
With leaves so many, and thence reascended
To where its love abideth evermore.

Their faces had they all of living flame,
And wings of gold, and all the rest so white
No snow unto that limit doth attain.

From bench to bench, into the flower descending,
They carried something of the peace and ardour
Which by the fanning of their flanks they won.
from Paradiso, Canto 31, Longfellow Translation
http://www.everypoet.com/Archive/poe...dante_x_31.htm

---

It's been years since I've read Dante, so it's a little difficult to comment on the similarities. Just looking at what you've quoted, though, I can say a few things. First, both poets use the bee simile to show work being done assiduously. A difference between the two could be that the passage from Dante is much more sensual than the one in the Aeneid. Vergil focuses on the idea of work being done in general, while Dante uses the simile to describe how sweet the work is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quark

So, is Book II still your favorite Book?

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Yes, I still marvel at Book II.

Quote:

---

Yeah, I begin to think that Dido is a rather tame, conservative portrayal of love in comparison with some of Vergil's contemporaries. Vergil places restrictions on Dido's love, and constantly channels her affection back within appropriate lines. While Catullus expresses a desire to be with Lesibia simply for the pleasure of intimacy, Dido's love is much more fixated on other more respectable gains, such as a child. At the height of her conflict with Aeneas, she even suggests motherhood as an acceptable consolation for losing her lover:

At least, if but a child were born
Of me to you, before you were gone,
At very least, a little son
Still to recall your face to me. (327-30)

In a situation which should bring out Dido's need for Aeneas, Vergil diverts Dido's passion into a more acceptable desire, motherhood. Far from insulting sensibilities, this should have been comforting to them.

---

Well, Dido is a mature, responsible woman in charge of a kingdom. She's not some flitty young girl.

Quote:

---

Yes, there probably is an allusion here to the legend associated with Pompey's death. Comparing Priam's demise to that of another well-known and gruesome death would heighten the outrage and disgust readers would have for the way they treat Priam's body. I don't think that Vergil is making a political point or drawing any other parallels between Priam and Pompey, though. I know some scholars and critics have tried to argue Priam is Pompey, but that doesn't make much sense. After all, that would make Pyrrus like Caesar. Most likely, the allusion is made to compare the dishonorable fate of Priam's body with Priam's unfortunate corpse.

---

I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense to me.

So on to Book V?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, Dido is a mature, responsible woman in charge of a kingdom. She's not some flitty young girl.

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Well, yeah, but she's also considered one of the paragons of passionate love in ancient literature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

So on to Book V?

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We're just starting to get conversation going again. I don't know if we should move on just yet. Besides, Book V only lists the funeral games without there being much action. I would be surprised if our discussion on that Book lasted more than a couple of days. I know it seems like we've been moving slowly, but that's only because the conversation has been so sporadic. When we start getting more people posting regularly things should start moving faster. The rest of the Aeneid should go by quickly. Books V and VII don't have a great deal to discuss, and we can talk about the conquest chapters (Books VIII-XII) as a group since they relate one story.

This reading has encouraged me to look into other epics. I will continue reading today.

Hmm, I was going to post something about Dido's guilt, but I don't know if anyone's still here. Where did everyone go?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

This reading has encouraged me to look into other epics. I will continue reading today.

---

I don't read many epics, so my advice probably isn't the best. Of course, that won't stop me from giving it. If you like epics for their grand style, I would suggest reading Paradise Lost since it's difficult to find a more high-blown style than Milton's. If you're entranced by the action so far in the Aeneid, you should just keep reading. Books VIII through XII have battle after battle. Some people find the mythological world of the Aeneid interesting, and enjoy stories that explore this world further. Those readers often go for the other epics of Latin and Greek literature. Homer's two are always popular, but there's also many others from Rome's Silver Age which are very similar to the Aeneid. Outside of that advice, I'm scared to say much more. The recent discussion about what qualifies as epic has cow'd the better part of me. I'll just stick with the only confirmed epics that I know of.

Oh, and where are you in the Aeneid? Have you caught up with us at Book IV?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quark

Hmm, I was going to post something about Dido's guilt, but I don't know if anyone's still here. Where did everyone go?



I don't read many epics, so my advice probably isn't the best. Of course, that won't stop me from giving it. If you like epics for their grand style, I would suggest reading Paradise Lost since it's difficult to find a more high-blown style than Milton's. If you're entranced by the action so far in the Aeneid, you should just keep reading. Books VIII through XII have battle after battle. Some people find the mythological world of the Aeneid interesting, and enjoy stories that explore this world further. Those readers often go for the other epics of Latin and Greek literature. Homer's two are always popular, but there's also many others from Rome's Silver Age which are very similar to the Aeneid. Outside of that advice, I'm scared to say much more. The recent discussion about what qualifies as epic has cow'd the better part of me. I'll just stick with the only confirmed epics that I know of.

Oh, and where are you in the Aeneid? Have you caught up with us at Book IV?

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I enjoy all three (writing, action and myth). I think it's Virgil's writing that makes the action interesting; the content shouldn't shock the modern reader, so the writing becomes important. The Romans and Greeks differ in how they name the Gods, and I am only familiar with the Greeks, so it has taken some adjustment.

Aeneas and his soon to be bride have retreated into the cave.

I have made out a list of epics, which includes both Homer and Milton. Thanks for heads up on Milton's style.

Nick - I think you would enjoy The Illiad best.

Quark - Feel free to post something on Dido's guilt. I'm interested. I'll probably get to Book V over the weekend.

I just finished the fourth book and it's my favorite so far.

I wanted to quote a passage about Aeneas silencing his heart and heeding his mind, which is filled with the warning of the Gods, but I can't seem to locate it. It seems, to be pious one must go against their humanity. One must make an allegiance to either the Gods or their fellow man. I have never read Ayn Rand, but have this general idea about her theories. If this is objectivism, I shall take no part in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Nick - I think you would enjoy The Illiad best.

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Thanks, I plan on reading it during the summer. I am going to conquer the epic this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I just finished the fourth book and it's my favorite so far.

---

I'm glad you liked it. Book IV is pretty engaging. It draws you into Dido's situation so well, and makes you feel her loss. I'm often confused why Vergil does this, though. It's such a departure from the story of Aeneas founding Rome. Several of the critics I've read have suggested that Book IV should be interpreted as a morality tale about the importance of pietas, or devotion. The reader is supposed to recoil from Dido because she represents the danger of giving in to passion. Her story is relevant to Aeneas because it's part of his growth as a character. By witnessing her downfall, he realizes the moral of the story and learns from it. Later, through Aeneas, this lesson is transfered to the Roman character. One could then argue that her story is necessary because it shows shows the development of Rome morally.

This conclusion only somewhat satisfies me. I think there is a warning in Dido's story; but, I don't believe we're supposed to recoil from Dido--at least, I don't. Dido isn't just a sinful wretch who ignores her duty. Vergil makes her quite attractive, and not just in a tempting, false sort of way. The perspective also draws us to her character. Book IV is told almost entirely from her point of view, and our sympathy naturally goes toward her. If the story were solely concerned with a moral objective which included the rejection of her character, I would think that Vergil wouldn't make her so easy to empathize with. I think the objective might be more complicated than that. Specifically, I think that Vergil is showing the pain that results from pietas. This makes Aeneas even more heroic because it means that he's overcoming something that the reader probably cannot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I wanted to quote a passage about Aeneas silencing his heart and heeding his mind, which is filled with the warning of the Gods, but I can't seem to locate it.

---

There are two places in the story where Mercury descends to scold Aeneas, and after each Aeneas says something like what you're talking about. Those sections are toward the end, I think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I plan on reading it during the summer. I am going to conquer the epic this year.

---

Good luck. Where do you suppose you'll start?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

I'm glad you liked it. Book IV is pretty engaging. It draws you into Dido's situation so well, and makes you feel her loss. I'm often confused why Vergil does this, though. It's such a departure from the story of Aeneas founding Rome. Several of the critics I've read have suggested that Book IV should be interpreted as a morality tale about the importance of pietas, or devotion. The reader is supposed to recoil from Dido because she represents the danger of giving in to passion. Her story is relevant to Aeneas because it's part of his growth as a character. By witnessing her downfall, he realizes the moral of the story and learns from it. Later, through Aeneas, this lesson is transfered to the Roman character. One could then argue that her story is necessary because it shows shows the development of Rome morally.

This conclusion only somewhat satisfies me. I think there is a warning in Dido's story; but, I don't believe we're supposed to recoil from Dido--at least, I don't. Dido isn't just a sinful wretch who ignores her duty. Vergil makes her quite attractive, and not just in a tempting, false sort of way. The perspective also draws us to her character. Book IV is told almost entirely from her point of view, and our sympathy naturally goes toward her. If the story were solely concerned with a moral objective which included the rejection of her character, I would think that Vergil wouldn't make her so easy to empathize with. I think the objective might be more complicated than that. Specifically, I think that Vergil is showing the pain that results from pietas. This makes Aeneas even more heroic because it means that he's overcoming something that the reader probably cannot.



There are two places in the story where Mercury descends to scold Aeneas, and after each Aeneas says something like what you're talking about. Those sections are toward the end, I think.



Good luck. Where do you suppose you'll start?

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That all makes sense.

I'll start with Gilgamesh.

I'm enjoying the fifth book. I found something odd though. Virgil seems to break from the narrative and addresses the Roman reader directly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I'm enjoying the fifth book. I found something odd though. Virgil seems to break from the narrative and addresses the Roman reader directly.

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That won't be the last time he does that. Where does address the reader in the fifth Book? I forget the details of that one frequently.

Quote:

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Last, Cloanthus
rides sea-green "Scylla": it is he from whom
you take your name, Roman Cluentius.

---

Do you know the motive behind this? Is it to promote national pride?

I've finished the fifth book. I find Entellus to be the most interesting character, although his role is very small.

I find myself laughing at the story. Not by anything Virgil intended, but because of my modernistic view. I find Aeneas to be pious the way Candide is optimistic. Am I the only one?

I haven't read Book Five yet. I need a good horse whipping. :D

I'm not sure I agree with you on Aneid and Candide. Candide's opitimism was an ironic stance by the author. Aeneas' piety is i think what Virgil wants us to accept. I don't see Virgil being ironic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I don't see Virgil being ironic.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

Not by anything Virgil intended, but because of my modernistic view.

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It's always me and never the author. The Greek Gods moved from religion to mythology, so his devotion becomes humorous in a modern context. I've been thinking about a modern parody.


I love this line from the sixth book:

"Some seek the seeds
of fire hidden in the veins of flint,"

I suppose I should introduce the fifth Book, if not the sixth. I was waiting for some others to join since it looked like there was interest, but everyone's floated away. Give me a minute, and I'll post something introductory for Book V.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quark

I suppose I should introduce the fifth Book, if not the sixth. I was waiting for some others to join since it looked like there was interest, but everyone's floated away. Give me a minute, and I'll post something introductory for Book V.

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No need for more kindle, the few here have enough interest to keep the fire burning.

I admit: I have not smelled Virgil's flowers; however, The Aeneid is a book I plan on reading again, so I will take in the fragrance on the second read.

It's getting on now; Aeneas is at the river Styx.

Since Nick has caught up to us now and Virgil is claiming he needs a kick to get going, I think we can move on to the next book. Here's:

Book V
http://vergil.classics.upenn.edu/images/3225-42r.gif
Aeneas' Four Ships from the Vergilius Vaticanus, a 5th century manuscript

Book V is the relaxing interlude between two intense and depressing sections. Dido has murdered herself, and Trojans are headed for Italy. On the way they stop in Sicily where they meet friendly Acestes who is also of Dardanian origin. He welcomes them, and the Sicilians and the Romans perform the funeral games for Anchises there on the island. Cloanthus wins the ship race. Euryalus finishes first in the foot race (with some help), and Entellus out-boxes Metus. Acestes wins the archery contest through divine intervention. Meanwhile, Juno--still furious--sends her helper Iris to incite a riot amongst the Trojan women. Their anger at the continuing voyage boils over and they set fire to the ships. The gods extinguish the flame, and Venus bargains with Neptune to get Aeneas safe passage to Italy. Aeneas allows those who do not want to go on to stay in Sicily. He takes the brave remainder with him to Cumae where he must go into the underworld and speak with his father. That's where Book V leaves us.

The unyielding Aeneas of the last Book is replaced with a very generous, conciliatory in Book V. He gives out awards to almost all the participants, and he even allows the unhappy women to stay in Sicily after they torched his boats. There's certainly been a change from the Aeneas who was describes as a stubborn oak tree weathering intense winds. This Aeneas is compassionate and emotional. He almost breaks down toward the end. Perhaps this change is necessary to rally support for Aeneas after he callously departed from Troy. Or, maybe this is just the natural Aeneas when he isn't being hassled by gods and goddesses. Either way, it's an interesting departure.

Book V also has much foreshadowing. Sinus helps Euryalus; Juno sends her minion to stir up trouble; there are several events prefigured in the details of Book V.

Another point of interest in Book V is the relationships between the gods and the action on the field. There is rather a lot of divine interference in this section.

Anyway, there's the introduction for Book V. Feel free to start posting comments.

http://vergil.classics.upenn.edu/images/3225-44v.gif
Venus and Neptune--also from the Vergilius Vaticanus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

Do you know the motive behind this? Is it to promote national pride?

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Yes, the links between Vergil's time and the story are meant to build Roman pride. In some ways the story is almost a glorified Roman history. The characters are often meant to be idealized portraits of Romans living contemporaneously with Vergil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I've finished the fifth book. I find Entellus to be the most interesting character, although his role is very small.

I find myself laughing at the story. Not by anything Virgil intended, but because of my modernistic view. I find Aeneas to be pious the way Candide is optimistic. Am I the only one?

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I like Entellus mostly because he beats the pompous Metus.

Virgil's probably right about the humor of the story. I don't think there's much of a parody going on in Book V.