D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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Originally Posted by Janine

Can the book have splatterings of coffee on it, too? ;) Oh my goodness - you will buy a wreck of a book and pay $3.95 shipping for a 1 cent book. You might find you have to glue the whole thing back together again.:lol:

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They would charge some egregious amount for shipping, wouldn't they? $3.96 is still not bad, though. It's definitely better than the $35 estimate I got at my bookstore.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I have to go and check that list out again. By the way, Q, when do I get my Chekhov addition you so generously offered me? I am still working on your CD's. My burner is acting up and can't burn the last one yet. They are in the making though.

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Well you never gave me your address. I can't just write "Jersey" on the envelope and expect it to go anywhere. Plus, I'm not sure if I should be surrendering my book before I get the CD's. Where are they? If you don't hurry, I might grow attached to my book and call the deal off.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I think we all need to go back and read our former posts. We don't seem to recall just what we said about the red or the fire.

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Did I just contradict myself, or something? We did discuss it, and I think I'm reciting our conclusion--if we did reach one.

Well if you live anywhere near any mom and pop type of bookstores, that deal in buying and selling of old/used books, I have a few stores like that around here where I get most all my books for. And the most exepsnivie I pay for a book there is 6$ on average they are usually around 3 and 4. And if you have any old books you don't want anymore you can trade them in for store credit.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Ah ha...then it was you, Quark, ....interesting. You probably mentioned it when we discussed "Sons and Lovers". There are some stunningly beautiful passages in "The White Peacock" - descriptions of nature and the woodlands, that just take your breath away. I am always meaning to post some of them on the forum somewhere. I wish I could find someone who read the whole book to discuss it with. It is an early work of L's. I think he was only in his early 20's, when he wrote it...still I think it has merit, although flawed and I would even read it again. Not as polished and complete as his other works, but it shows the young thoughts in L's head that would later take root in other significant works, which is highly interesting to me, at least. I did not regret buying it for my L collection. I have over 20 plus books now; can you believe it?

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well... this is quite funny... I read this book several years ago, and until you mentioned it here I would not for the life of me have recalled that it was by Lawrence... I really loved his descriptions of nature and the woodlands too.. and the book on the whole I loved.. I like books sometimes that are flawed to a greater degree, are a bit rough around the edges, touched by some youthful sentiments and ideas.. polished isn't always the best in my opinion... someday I would discuss it with you if you wanted, though for now, time is at a premium for me....

speaking of nature, when I was rock climbing this evening just before dark, I had a bat fly right of the crack I was climbing... I had my hand buried in the crack and a bat flew almost right into my fast, a couple inches over my head, it almost made me fall... and at 80 ft up the cliff it was a good thing I was climbing with a rope:D

well, this brief return is drawing to an end... work beckons with dark and dismal fingers, and I have not the power to say no... oh well... I will be back someday...

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

The play sounds very interesting, Janine. If I ever see it, I will pick it up, providing it's not too expensive. I am anxious to read Sons and Lovers now. I read novels and short stories at the same time, so I'll probably read it as soon as I finish with the novel I'm working my way through.

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Antiquarian, I bought the play from Amazon recently, but of course, it is not for everyone; I buy all that I can afford of L's work if it interests me. In fact, today I got something new in the mail, really a 'used' book from and an Amazon seller: Lawrence's "Phoenix - The Posthumus Papers", which I have been tracking down now for a good year. It came in used but fairly good condition, so I am thrilled. One more book to add to my extensive L collection. Do you think I will ever get around to reading all of these? I will try.

"The Widowing of Mrs. Holyroyd" is an older play, that was shown on public and network television. The play stars Geraldine Fizgerald, Joyce Ebert, Rex Robbins and Frank Converse. On the back of the DVD it states, this was originally staged for the theatre by The Long Wharf Theatre.

I felt the acting was very fine and intense. It differs from the short story, in that it also includes a third party, a young man who is friends of the family and the wife, especially. This added element complicates the situation, as you can imagine; I suppose Lawrence took the story one step further in the play, although I think the short story brings out more of the symbolism, and the inner dialogue of the woman, which is not as apparent in the play.

I found the complete text of the play online and I will send you the link, so you can read it first. I did not read it yet, but I plan to and then watch the play again. The play DVD was produced by Kultur and if you go to their website; www.Kultur.com Don't buy it yet; I will email you with more information; a hair's breath away from finishing you email, last night, but had to quit and go to bed, was super late. We might be able to work something out.

Oh, you will love it, Antiquarian. I recently directed islandclimber to the site and he said he loved it and would buy some of the things he saw there, but probably by tracking them down from Amazon. You can find them much cheaper on A. The site produces DVD's of noted Operas, Ballets, Orchestras, Plays, etc....the arts.

Hi Everyone I seriously am working on posting the next story. I am still a little undecided and want to review a few more before I post. I got held up last night and did not review all that I hoped to. I did reread one but still I am not sure about that one, although I may pick it, even though it seems to be a simpler story to me. All that I read I enjoyed and thought they were quite good. I will try to post later tonight and if I don't make that deadline I will post it tomorrow. Sorry for this short delay.

In the meantime, and during my researching for a new story, I happened to look in the back of my Michael Black commentary book in the notes and found this, which may directly correspond to the idea of the color 'red' in the story "Odour of Chrysanthemums" and other stories where 'blood' and 'red' is mentioned throughout Lawrence texts. This is a footnote:

From "D.H.LAWRENCE The Early Fiction" by Michael Black:

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Jeremiah 17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and deperately wicked: who can know it?

Cruden defined the Biblical heart: 'The word heart is used in Scriptures as the seat of life or strength; hence it means mind, soul, spirit, or one's entire emotional nature and understanding. It is also used as the centre or inner part of a 'thing'. This is an important instance of the consonance of Lawrence's way of using words like heart or blood, and the Biblical network of meanings.

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Quote in a Lawrence letter:

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"My great religion is a belief in the blood, the flesh, as being wiser than the intellect. We can go wrong in our minds. But what our blood feels and believes and says, is always true. The intellect is only a bit and a bridle. What do I care about knowledge. All I want is to answer to my blood, direct, without fribbling intervention of mind, or moral, or what not."

This is a letter, we remember; written swiftly as an expression of the moment's mood, and not on oath. So, it is free and emphatic and without afterthought. We, reading now, may have our own afterthoughts before we start taking this as a rule of life. For the moment however, it is worth saying that direct access to the association process, and the fictions in their larger aspect, give us a sense of what is meant by the 'blood'.

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Then Black goes on to show some stories as examples; then he proceeds:

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...;we reflect that the artist speaks in the letter, and has told us not to trust him, but to 'trust the tale'. The artist, however, continues in his vein of central utterance, and veers into ofn of this great metaphors:
"I conceive a man's body as a kind of flame, like a candle flame forever upright and yet flowing: and the intellect is just the light that is shed onbto the things around. And I am not so much concerned with the things around; --which is really mind: --but with the mystery of the flame forever flowing, coming God knows how from our of practically nowhere, and being itself, whateve there is around it, that it lights up. We have got so ridiculously mindful, that we never know that we ourselves are anything -- we think there are only the objects we shine upon. And thre the poor flame goes burning ignored, to produce this light. And instead of chasing the mystery in the fugitive, hald lighted things outside us, we ought to look at ourselves, and say 'My God, I am myself!"

I shall show that the candle-flame, golden and warm, associated with the sweetness of honey and the warmth of the sun, is a cardinal point to which Lawrence's compass naturally sets. It is opposed in Lawrence's associative world to the fierce white light of the pressure lamp, to the coldness of moonlight, and the corrosive power of salt glittering in the light like the pillar which once was Lot's wife. The cold white light is indentified with mind, and the warm gold one with being.

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This commentary with excerpts from Lawrence's early letters says so much and I think it can apply to a number of the stories we read so far. I am thinking of not only 'Odour of Chysanthemums' but also, 'The Prussian Officer', 'Sun' and 'The Man Who Loved Islands'....also to note is the reference of the pillar of salt in relation to the story 'Two Blue Birds.

In relation to 'O of C', I would say, that this pretty well describes the difference in the warm 'red' color and the cold 'white' color of the flowers/the light. Now, Antiquarian, you can see the significance. Didn't you say there were two colors of flowers? I will have to look that up in the story. I know the lantern light is a start contrast to the impending darkness, and used to contrast and represent the deeper elements in the story. Now I see the significance of the stark light and the breaking of the lamp - wasn't the lamp globe broken, as well as the vase? It has been awhile since I read that story, so please forgive my poor memory. In the play, the lamp globe and the vase both are broken.

Hope all of this helps your greater understanding of Lawrence and how he wrote and thought. This is only a short introduction and Lawrence, of course is much more complex than this and than can be put down in only one post.

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

well... this is quite funny... I read this book several years ago, and until you mentioned it here I would not for the life of me have recalled that it was by Lawrence... I really loved his descriptions of nature and the woodlands too.. and the book on the whole I loved.. I like books sometimes that are flawed to a greater degree, are a bit rough around the edges, touched by some youthful sentiments and ideas.. polished isn't always the best in my opinion... someday I would discuss it with you if you wanted, though for now, time is at a premium for me....

speaking of nature, when I was rock climbing this evening just before dark, I had a bat fly right of the crack I was climbing... I had my hand buried in the crack and a bat flew almost right into my fast, a couple inches over my head, it almost made me fall... and at 80 ft up the cliff it was a good thing I was climbing with a rope:D

well, this brief return is drawing to an end... work beckons with dark and dismal fingers, and I have not the power to say no... oh well... I will be back someday...

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Quark, islandclimber and Dark Muse, sorry I did not see you post; I was busy with my long post and typing out all that stuff from my reference book; I hope you all can take the time to read it. I think this will shed some light on many things we have discussed lately and before in each story.

Dark Muse, I love to puruse used-book stores and even thrift-stores for books; you never know what you will find. It is such an adventure.


Quark, I will send you my address, so you don't change your mind. But seriously, if you really want to keep that book, that is fine with me. I can order a used one from Amazon, if you just tell me which one to get. I am working on the CD's; didn't you read my post? I said my burner program is not working correctly right now, so I have to work on my computer, reducing hard-drive space to clear up the problem. I have 2 of the Chekhov set burned for both you and for Virgil, so far. I told islandclimber I would send him a set too, and that is when the burner started to not burn. I have had this problem before, and feel sure I can solve it, given a little time. It is some problem in the program - some quirk. I can send you the first two CD's I have burned, if you want. Most of the stories are on those - 'In the Ravine' only, I believe, is on Disc three.

islandclimber, glad to see you back. Wow, that is some story - truly scary. You had better be careful. Bats and climbing together could be dangerous. I would hate to see you get hurt or worse. Here I thought you ran off for good; or you might have fallen off - heaven forbid it! We miss you here. I hope you can find time to stop back soon. How interesting that you read "The White Peacock" - how did you manage to find the book? I simply loved it, even knowing it to be imperfect. I thought the woodland and field passages were just breath-taking. I loved especially the part about the bird's nest in the hollow of the cow's hoof prints in the mud, out in the field; I adored the passage with the snowdrops, as well. Someone did a study of how many flowers and fauna Lawrence mentions in that novel and it was phenomenal! Lawrence was a avid student of botany. He just loved flowers and plants so passionately and it shows in his descriptions. This probably early on sprung, from his mother's passion for her beloved rose garden; he would help her gardening and he loved roses. I read this very touching passage, he wrote in a letter, when he was quite young, and he mentions that he is outside their house, sitting under the liliac bush. I actually got goosebumps reading it, because the description was so vivid and personal that one felt one knew him on an intimate level; also because of the fact, that liliacs are my favorite flowers. :) To me that novel has some of the loveliest passages Lawrence ever wrote and to think he was so young when he composed it. He was such a natural talent and genius.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Quark could write "Janine, Jersey" on the address label if he was into taking chances. :lol: Who knows? Things have made it to their destination with less. But I'm just being silly.

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Oh, that is a good one - like there is only one Janine in all of tiny New Jersey! :lol: hey, or he could write 'Jersey Janine' on the envelop - it has a nice ring to it. I should use that for a user name on some site.

Antiquarian, I just saw this as I was writing another post. I can't keep up with everyone. No wonder I am lagging behind in picking a story.

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Hi Janine,

Thanks for the link and I am very interested in the play, considering how much I love "Odour of Chrysanthemums." (Why can't I write like that? LOL) And I do like Geraldine Fitzgerald.

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Hi Antiquarian! Glad you liked the link. You will enjoy that site. It will give you tons of idea of great productions to look for on Amazon. I want to get more myself. There are many plays and I like some of the Operas I have seen before on tape only and hope to own someday. I do own a number of the Kultur DVD's and like them very much: Madame Butterfly, Tosca, some of the ballets, etc. Yeah, really...why can't any of us write like that? I guess the answer is we are not pure genius like L was. It was natural, I am sure, for him from a very early age. Read "Sons and Lovers", A, and you will get a window into his early life. The story is mostly biographical with some differences of course. We can discuss the parellels when you do read it. I know the biographies well by now and what is the fiction and what is based on truth. The story will take you in. You will love it.

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Oh, take your time on the email. Email is not fun if it's not relaxed.

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I know, but I had some much and I was falling behind I was determined to finish up a few, yours was longer than I though, A.;) not complaining since I write novels to people - poor recipricants!:lol:

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Thanks for the commentary from Black. It helps a lot toward understanding the stories more fully.

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I just love that Michael Black book. It is well worth buying if you really are into Lawrence's work. I get so much out of that book and his commentaries. I wish he had written one on the later work, also. I am glad that bit helped you to understand; but seriously, that is only the tip of the iceberg.

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I think the lamp globe was broken, Janine, as well as the vase. The chrysanthemums were described as "reddish-brown" and as "pink."

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Yes, I am not quite sure what to make of the two colors - 'reddish-brown' and 'pink'. I think someone said in our discussion that 'reddish-brown' is the color of dried blood; so that could be significant. I think 'pink' might indicate life and the dried blood indicate death. I am only conjecturing. The broken vase might symbolise the man's broken body. I think the decay of the flowers is important and indicates death like ashes and the burning away for new life to blossom - perhaps the 'pink'....one new life and one dying old life.

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I like Lawrence more and more and more.

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Oh my gosh, I can see it now; you will become addicted just like me! ;) :D

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Well if you live anywhere near any mom and pop type of bookstores, that deal in buying and selling of old/used books, I have a few stores like that around here where I get most all my books for.

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Mom and pop do everything in my town besides sell books. There are mom and pop grocery stores, restaurants, car dealerships, craft shops, funeral homes, but no used book stores. I've been to stores like the one you describe--and I felt like Marco Polo making bargains in the Orient--but I've never actually lived close to one.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Quark could write "Janine, Jersey" on the address label if he was into taking chances. :lol: Who knows? Things have made it to their destination with less. But I'm just being silly.

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That would be silly. I don't think the mailman would get the joke, though, and we're already on hostile terms after I hounded him for two months when my letters from grad schools were arriving.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, I am not quite sure what to make of the two colors - 'reddish-brown' and 'pink'. I think someone said in our discussion that 'reddish-brown' is the color of dried blood; so that could be significant. I think 'pink' might indicate life and the dried blood indicate death. I am only conjecturing. The broken vase might symbolise the man's broken body. I think the decay of the flowers is important and indicates death like ashes and the burning away for new life to blossom - perhaps the 'pink'....one new life and one dying old life.

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The pink or brownish-red flowers are puzzling, but the vase crashing is easier to understand. It breaks when they're carrying in the husband's body, so it's connected with his death and everything that represents: the end of their relationship, the end of his life, the end of her illusions about their marriage. All these things are brought to mind by the shattering vase.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Mom and pop do everything in my town besides sell books. There are mom and pop grocery stores, restaurants, car dealerships, craft shops, funeral homes, but no used book stores. I've been to stores like the one you describe--and I felt like Marco Polo making bargains in the Orient--but I've never actually lived close to one.

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Oh poor poor Quark .....:bawling:

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That would be silly. I don't think the mailman would get the joke, though, and we're already on hostile terms after I hounded him for two months when my letters from grad schools were arriving.

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Somehow I can picture that.:lol:

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The pink or brownish-red flowers are puzzling, but the vase crashing is easier to understand. It breaks when they're carrying in the husband's body, so it's connected with his death and everything that represents: the end of their relationship, the end of his life, the end of her illusions about their marriage. All these things are brought to mind by the shattering vase.

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Quark, my post #1499 may have faded into obscurity....it is on the page, prior to this one. Go back and read the parts I quoted from the Michael Black book, if you have not already done so. This might cast some light on the significance of the color 'warm' red, like blood (life) and the 'cold' white, the light (death).
Yes, I agree - the broken vase is pretty obvious in it's meaning.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

The chrysanthemums were "reddish-brown" in the beginning, I think, Janine, then they were referred to as "pink." Perhaps this signifies a move from life to death, or maybe we're reading too much into this? I sometimes wonder if authors consciously write all the symbols into their fiction that we extricate or if some of it is done on a subconscious level. I know when I write, some of the symbolism is written subconsciously, but then, I'm not a terrific writer. LOL

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Antiquarian, yes, that could be true of some authors and their critics (I have even thought as much myself), but I do not think it is true of Lawrence's work. His work is filled with tons of symbolism; I believe and so do most scholars that this was quite intentional and not subconscious, on the part of Lawrence. I think the mere fact he named this story 'Odour of Chrysantemums' indicates just how important the flowers are to the ideas in the story - those of death and rebirth. Why did he choose a chrysantemum which is a perennial and not an annual, which when dead would have remained dead? It seems to me the 'chrysantemum' symbolises the whole idea of autumn and the idea of eternal rest for the miner; but of course, I could be wrong. I might even be contadicting myself, not sure now. I have more inmind the idea of death not being the 'end all', but the beginning of rebirth beyond an earthly body....there is biblical references in the story, as you so efficently pointed out to us. I think all the symbols in this story give us hints - such as the two women washing the body like the body of Christ.

Ok, then this change in color might symbolise the idea of the dying down or dying out and then the rebirth. That was a constant Lawrence theme. His symbol was the phoenix bird, who dies and burns down to ash; then rises from the ashes to be reborn. I believe also the mother of the dead miner refers to his skin as still pink as a baby's. At least I recall that from the play I saw.

Hi Everyone, It is me again with an announcement.

Please forgive me; I still have not settled on a story and I will have to delay until Wednesday, because I am not feeling that well tonight. I think it is just seasonal allergies that is getting me down, and I am excessively tired out and my sinus' are bothing me greatly. I want to take the time tonight and tomorrow night to review, what I read in the short stories and I want to read one more for consideration. Then on Wednesday I promise to post the new story and write something briefly to introduce it.

I talked to Virgil and he does not mind the delay at all; in fact, he felt we should take the whole month off; but I did not want to do that, since everyone is now excited and enthused and ready for the next story....so am I, as well.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I don't like to disagree with Virgil, Janine, but I don't really want to take a whole month off. Now, a week wouldn't bother me. I have "catching up reading" to do and then looking up the posts anyway. But take your time and I hope you feel better soon. Just for myself, I can print out the stories you've already read and read them myself in the interim. And I still have to get a Lawrence short story book.

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Antiquarian, I did not agree with Virgil about that either. I want to continue. We have a momentum here I would not want to lose and taking off even one month would lose it and the thread would fall into obscurity that quickly. It took too much work to build this thread up and make it a success. At least I feel it is a great success so far. I would rather delay till Wed. and better review the stories so I pick one that please you all of you or at least attempts to. I also need to prepare my little introduction to the story. I have read a number of L's short stories lately but now they have become a muddle and I need to sort all this out. A few were too long and involved for right now but they will be great possibilities for later on.

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I did not think chrysanthemums had any odor at all. The ones I've had didn't, or it was very, very slight. I don't think they're known for having an odor.

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We did discuss that fact awhile back in the posts. I can't now recall just what we came up with for the significance of them being a flower with no odour. I believe there was something I found that was documented on the reason L picked those. I am sorry my memory does not serve me to remember why he would pick an odourless flower and then call it the title he did. Perhaps that was a kind of irony. Maybe Virgil, Quark or Dark Muse will remember why?

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Thank you for the information regarding Lawrence and symbolism. I love symbolism in novels and short stories.

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Well, I only know this much about the symbolism, etc, because I have read tons of commentary on Lawrence offline in books and online as well. You probably could run a search on 'Odour of Chyrsantemums' and find some online, too. I just joined a site called "Blackwell Synergy" and you have assess to tons of good commentary on authors and all kinds of things. I have been wanting to sign-up, since I always run into this site when researching Lawrence and Chekhov, too. It is free to join. I hope it proves helpful, for all of us.
Glad all the extras, I have written, have given you more insight into Lawrence, A. I hope I can continue to help. I always so happy to share Lawrence information. I dig up a lot and love to share it with others.

Tried to get to the last part of your email and then just could not finish it again. There is always tomorrow - right?

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Originally Posted by Janine

We did discuss that fact awhile back in the posts. I can't now recall just what we came up with for the significance of them being a flower with no odour. I believe there was something I found that was documented on the reason L picked those. I am sorry my memory does not serve me to remember why he would pick an odourless flower and then call it the title he did. Perhaps that was a kind of irony. Maybe Virgil, Quark or Dark Muse will remember why?

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LOL you keep forgetting, I was not here when you dicussed that story.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Quark, my post #1499 may have faded into obscurity....it is on the page, prior to this one. Go back and read the parts I quoted from the Michael Black book, if you have not already done so. This might cast some light on the significance of the color 'warm' red, like blood (life) and the 'cold' white, the light (death).

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Yes, but I thought the colors were reddish-brown and pink, not red and white.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am sorry my memory does not serve me to remember why he would pick an odourless flower and then call it the title he did. Perhaps that was a kind of irony. Maybe Virgil, Quark or Dark Muse will remember why?

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We mentioned it before in conversation, but I don't think we were any less baffled by it than we are now.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Antiquarian, I did not agree with Virgil about that either. I want to continue.

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Oh everyone always disagrees with me. :lol: It's common practice. You should tell everyone about the debate we had on Hamlet a lontg time ago and how you and that other woman who's no longer here both ganged up on me. :D I'm always the outsider. :p

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We did discuss that fact awhile back in the posts. I can't now recall just what we came up with for the significance of them being a flower with no odour. I believe there was something I found that was documented on the reason L picked those. I am sorry my memory does not serve me to remember why he would pick an odourless flower and then call it the title he did. Perhaps that was a kind of irony. Maybe Virgil, Quark or Dark Muse will remember why?

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I don't think we came to any conclusion about the smell. But we did discuss this story between pages 31 through 36 or 37 of this thread. That's not too much to read, and Quark was part of that discussion.

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Well, I only know this much about the symbolism, etc, because I have read tons of commentary on Lawrence offline in books and online as well. You probably could run a search on 'Odour of Chyrsantemums' and find some online, too. I just joined a site called "Blackwell Synergy" and you have assess to tons of good commentary on authors and all kinds of things. I have been wanting to sign-up, since I always run into this site when researching Lawrence and Chekhov, too. It is free to join. I hope it proves helpful, for all of us.

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Interesting. What exactly is that?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Oh everyone always disagrees with me. :lol: It's common practice. You should tell everyone about the debate we had on Hamlet a lontg time ago and how you and that other woman who's no longer here both ganged up on me. :D I'm always the outsider. :p

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:lol: Awww...poor, poor Virgil....well, actually part of me wants to agree with you, because I could use a month's break, and part of me rejects the idea, because I also want to discuss the story, with this great group we have going. Ok, this second part of myself won out. And... I don't always disagree with you at all, Virgie....but I do when you get mean and irrate;) :lol: (B,M & D to know!) Then I just simply tell you to 'cool it!'.:D

I don't recall that debate on Hamlet, at all. What was it about? See, it really must have been vitally important, when I can't even remember it!

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I don't think we came to any conclusion about the smell. But we did discuss this story between pages 31 through 36 or 37 of this thread. That's not too much to read, and Quark was part of that discussion.

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We didn't? I would have to go back and read those pages, too. I am always meaning to copy this whole thread and all the posts onto a disc to keep for posterity, but I say, 'who ever finds the time?' One day, we could all come onto Lit Net and poof! - everything would be whiped out and it would be like a clean slate, again. Wouldn't that be a horror??? We would have to start all over again, because none of us seems to recall ,just what we did write months ago.
Anyway, I thought we did come up with some reason those were the flowers with no scent. But now that I think of it, I may be thinking of a book I just read "Lady of the Camilias" since, they mentioned that they had no scent either and that is why they were the flower the girl with TB choose - seems scented ones would make her feel ill.
I thought the 'odour' in the case of Lawrence's story might be significant since he wrote a poem called "Violets", which is about the 'smell of violets' and the 'smell of death'. Maybe here, the chrysantemums are also dying and smell like death.
I guess we will have to have a seance and summon Lawrence's spirit to this thread, to tell us just what he had in-mind when he titled the story O of C, OR I could look into my Michael Black book and do research online, maybe at that new site, to see anyone mentions this fact of 'odourless' chrysantemums.

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Interesting. What exactly is that?

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I haven't tried the site yet; but it looks interesting; it became too late last night to look things up. Time will tell. It says it has thousands of articles and commentaries for review. I don't know if they can be copied but I will find out soon enough. To sign up you only needed to provide scanty information so I felt it was totally safe. Of course they probably will send me tons of email, which is just great; this I don't need. I get a ton of junk mail. daily as it is. Doesn't Blackwell produce DVD's or books or something related to literature?

Dark Muse, I know I always assume you were here during that discussion and even earlier ones. It seems you have been here for a long time now. Which story did you start with? I totally forget now; please forgive me.

Yes, the flowers were reddish-brown and pink, Quark.
Reddish-brown is the color of fall - 'rust'... and pink could signify the color of spring. I don't know for sure, but that makes sense. One is the season of dying away and one is the season of rebirth.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Dark Muse, I know I always assume you were here during that discussion and even earlier ones. It seems you have been here for a long time now. Which story did you start with? I totally forget now; please forgive me.

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LOL it is quite alright, I am around so much, it seems like I have been here forever.

My first story here was Sun.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

LOL it is quite alright, I am around so much, it seems like I have been here forever.

My first story here was Sun.

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Aha, yes, you are around a lot and often on here - you are pretty quick posting, in the evening hours. You must be a night owl like me.:D
So how many have we done since 'Sun'? I did recall, now that you missed some of the good ones from before. Dark Muse, you should try and read them sometime. They are all such good stories. In fact, it is hard to choose a new one now. I keep thinking those that we already discussed, are such a hard act to follow.

When I get the chance I do wish to read some of the ones already discussed.

So far the ones I have read with you guys are:

Sun
The Man Who Loved Islands
The Shadow in the Rose Garden
Two Blue Birds.

You can get the stories here:

http://www.literature.org/authors/la...-david-herbert

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I really want to read "The Man Who Loved Islands" and "Two Blue Birds." I'll find them online somewhere and download them and print them out.

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'The Man Who Loved Islands' is particularly good; I am still musing on that one. 'Sun' is another great one. 'Two Blue Birds' is really sarcastic/sardonic but I liked it. It is quite different that Lawrence's usually stories. The writing is quite and very witty. I can tell you, I think all the ones we discussed so far are really good ones. I like 'Things', also. You might not know this but Lawrence refused to actually own any property and he made his wife hold the deed to their ranch which was given to them by Mabel Dodge in New Mexico. 'Things' is very continental and I feel shows the irony of owning too many things. It has always been one of my favorites, oddly enough since I am a great horder of things.;) :lol: Funny, isn't it?

Well, once again I am off to see the rest of my movie! Good night, Antiquarian and Dark Muse - the late birds!

DM, so you did 4 of the stories so far. You should gradually read all of the ones we discussed, as you suggested you would. I would be curious to see how many of the women characters you end up hating in those stories -;) :lol: I am just joking with you. :D

Night girls! :)

Hehe well maybe over the summer when I do not have such a reading load on me, I will begin reading over those stories. I am thinking of starting with the Horse Dealer's Daughter which Virgil mentioned, a while back, because it has the word horse in the title. LOL, I know great reason.

Hehe Goodnight.

The other story that we covered that those of you who missed the early ones might want to read is "The Prussian Officer." A very intense story.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I don't recall that debate on Hamlet, at all. What was it about? See, it really must have been vitally important, when I can't even remember it!

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You don't remember? It was on the significance of the ghost. Here:http://www.online-literature.com/for...ghlight=hamlet.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

You don't remember? It was on the significance of the ghost. Here:http://www.online-literature.com/for...ghlight=hamlet.

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Hi, Everyone!I am justing now coming online. I was up way too late last night, as usual....

Hi Virgil,I did manage to re-read one of the stories - the one you suggested, when I showed you my list of stories, that I had read so far. I have read many of the stories by now; but I venture to say, they tend to all blend into a muddle for me, so I have to go back and review each one (really re-read the whole story again). That is the trouble with short stories, as opposed to novels. There are so many themes and so many plots, that they begin to run together, when you read so many at one time, especially late at night with one eye opened, one dropping shut ;), like me.:lol:

Virgil, now I do recall the debate about the ghost.:D Yes, I think finally we had to all finally say, 'let's give up the ghost!' - let's not :( go back there again, ok? Keep the peace, instead. :lol:

Anyway, bottom line, I will post the story officially, but I can tell you all now - it will be 'The Witch A La Mode' (an early story in Vol. 1); I will now go hunting for the online text, for some of you who will need it. I am also looking up some background on the story and most likely will add a nice picture - that gives the page a nice touch and attracts other people to the thread. OK, so NO discussing just yet, until I officially announce the story, on it's own page, in a bold typestyle. I promise to accomplish all this by this evening, now that I have made up my mind, as to which story we should read. We probably won't discuss it until tomorrow or next day, so everyone has a chance to read it first.

Here is one link to the story at Project Gutenburg: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks04/0400311h.html#s13
The story text is not our Lit Net site, unfortuately; sorry about that. Hope you all can assess this first link.

Antiquarian, I can't read too well online, either. I try to print out the stories, when I don't have assess to them. I have sometimes reduced the point size of the font or the style or both and still been comfortable reading it when printed. This helps save pages and if you designate 'draft' printing and in color 'print in gray scale' this also conserves ink. You might already be aware of these tips.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I downloaded that one, Virgil, but have to get paper before I can print it out. I can't concentrate reading at the computer.

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That is a longer story, too...'The Prussian Officer' - that will take up a number of printed pages.
One of my favorite ones was 'The Shades of Spring' - that one is much shorter, and it is nice for this time of year.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Anyway, bottom line, I will post the story officially, but I can tell you all now - it will be 'The Witch A La Mode' (an early story in Vol. 1); I will now go hunting for the online text, for some of you who will need it. I am also looking up some background on the story and most likely will add a nice picture - that gives the page a nice touch and attracts other people to the thread. OK, so NO discussing just yet, until I officially announce the story, on it's own page, in a bold typestyle. I promise to accomplish all this by this evening, now that I have made up my mind, as to which story we should read. We probably won't discuss it until tomorrow or next day, so everyone has a chance to read it first.

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Well I have to say I am intrigued by the title of the story

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Hi Janine,

I read "The Shadow in the Rose Garden" while I was at dinner tonight. I thought it was elegantly written, with much beautiful imagery, but so far, it has been my least favorite. I'm afraid I did not understand it fully, and because of that, felt it lacked depth.

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Antiquarian, I agree that the imagery was so beautiful and the story so elegantly written. I picked it for springtime. We did discuss this story quite extensively and I don't recall all that was said about it; there was some symbolism, that we finally came up with between all of our thinking the various key words and images and researching it. I would have to review to see exactly what they were now.

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Was the young man her supposed dead lover, or was she the one fantasizing? Now, I want to know!

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Yes, he was her old lover, presumed dead; but he was derranged from the war and did not know her, he probably was shell-shocked and lost his memory. Likewise she was in-shock, when she saw him; wouldn't you be? In the garden she did not let on that she knew him at all. She did confess all this later to her husband at home. No, the man was real and not a figment of her imagination. If he had been a figment he would have appeared to her as normal or as she had known him. She had loved him and apparently, believing he had died, she married the next guy who came along and perhaps truly did not love him with the same passion, as this former lover.

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Thanks for the link to the online text of "The Witch a la Mode." :)

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Glad you could assess it. You can copy to your hard-drive now.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Well I have to say I am intrigued by the title of the story

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Yes, DM...I knew you would be...;):lol:

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, DM...I knew you would be...;):lol:

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LOL, hopefully I will be able to fit it in this weekend with all my other reading.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

LOL, hopefully I will be able to fit it in this weekend with all my other reading.

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Is it a full moon this weekend? You might need a full moon to read this particular one:lol: ....just kidding really....think the full moon was last weekend, actually.
I thought we all could read it on the weekend, although I have read it twice already; I probably will read it again.

Perhaps we should have saved this one for Halloween. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Thanks, Janine. That is what I thought. I did like the prose, but I didn't think the story had nearly the depth and symbolism as some of the others. I think it's worth reading for the beauty of its prose alone, though.

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Yes, not too much plot to that one, true. It is hard to pick the stories each month (some great stories are hard to follow up on with others that might not be quite as good); but I am still glad I picked that one for that month, since the flower garden was enough to make one enjoy reading it. I also did like the idea of 'what if one were to meet up years later with a lost love?' sort of element to the story. I will tell you a funny story, about that later on, in regard to my own personal experience.
There was a lot of significance in the roses and the colors of the roses, I believe. When she gazed out over the sea that also had some hidden meaning. I will have to go back one day soon and review our commentary on that story. Can you wait till then? Now you have me curious, also.
Yes, the prose was almost poetry I thought. I would read it again just to read that lovely prose and imagine those roses so lush.

Well as it turns out, my required reading for the weakend is pretty light, so it should not be difficult for me to get this one read.

Janine. Great choice!! This is my favourite of all the Lawrence stories I have read until now... I read it in a collection of short stories called "Love Among the Haystacks and Other Stories" back in University, several years ago... and I loved it.. I actually quite enjoyed several of the stories from that collection.. as I think I have said before, I do enjoy his short works more so than his novels...:D

The White Peacock, I found in my grandparent's library several years ago...

The story wasn't in my collection, so this will be new to me. When does the discussion begin?

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Originally Posted by Quark

The story wasn't in my collection, so this will be new to me. When does the discussion begin?

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Sorry it was not in your collection. See I am getting you back, Quark!;) :lol: just kidding. Anyway, I did provide the link above to the story and wow, the Gutenberg site is really something - it has all the novels, poems and the short stories, plays, whatever L wrote available in full texts, right on one site. How cool is that? I even saw "The White Peacock" there.
Ok, so while all you have been posting, I have been offline and writing an introduction to the story. So without further ado.....I will be formally announcing the story in my next post, and adding my commentary and references I found on this early Lawrence work.

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Janine. Great choice!! This is my favourite of all the Lawrence stories I have read until now... I read it in a collection of short stories called "Love Among the Haystacks and Other Stories" back in University, several years ago... and I loved it.. I actually quite enjoyed several of the stories from that collection.. as I think I have said before, I do enjoy his short works more so than his novels...

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Oh, I am so glad, islandclimber. I suffered over which one to pick too long now. I read about 10 more stories in the process. Of course I like all the L stories so it was hard to choose just one. I thought I had that collection but I can't seem to find it. I do have enough collections as it is though. I own about 25 Lawrence books by now (of course many are bios and other commentaries). All I know is that they take up a lot of room!

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The White Peacock, I found in my grandparent's library several years ago...

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That is great - you mean your grandfather read Lawrence? or was it your grandmother? My friend's father read a lot of Lawrence...and he even wrote his own commentary on his work; my friend keeps it to this day.

Virgil and DM, glad you can fit the reading in this weekend. No Virgil, it is not that 'witchy' to me....anyway, you were the one that suggested it when I showed you the list of all I have been reading/reviewing these past few weeks.

Our next story reading and discussion is:


The Witch a la Mode

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...eandViolin.jpg


This story was begun in the spring of 1911; Lawrence was 25 years of age and had just lost his mother, to a long struggle with cancer; as most of you know, Lawrence had an unusually close relationship to his mother, which is greatly explored in "Sons and Lovers" and his biographies. In this period, he had also broken off with several key women in his life and he had a severe illness, in which he nearly died himself. Many biographers claim he was greatly altered after this illness and became even more sensitized to the world around him, especially the natural world. See references below, for more information on this time period in Lawrence's life.

The story is about a young man, going back to visit with a family he had been close to, because of his close ties to their daughter, Winifred. We find out early on, that he is betrothed to another woman, who is referred to in the story as Connie or Constance. He originally, was on his way to visit his fiancé, when he took a slight detour to stop the night and see Mrs. Braithwaite, obviously hopeful of meeting up again with his old flame. He uses the excuse, that he is too far from Connie’s house, to travel there at this hour of the night, using his fatigue as a further excuse to venture any further. As anticipated, he does meet up with Winifred and there is an intricate verbal matching of wills and intentions that pursues; with many interesting references to witchcraft, etc and much symbolism for all of us to muse on and try to interpret.

From D.H.Lawrence The Early Fiction by Michael Black:

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..the short story ‘The Witch a la Mode’ explores the whole context of witchcraft, lamplight, and the long kiss which is vampire-like. The idea of a spirituality like a pressure-lamp, which burns so intensely that it consumes the vessel, the person concerned, links this passage to Miriam Leivers, in Sons and Lovers. There, too, we encounter the notion of ‘leaking’ – or a reversal of that process (‘as if he had not sufficient sheathing to prevent the night and the space breaking into him’).

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I can go into that in more detail later and explain what he means by that last line...there is more explanation in my book. First we have to read the story, of course.

In the same reference book I found this:

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The Lawrence-figure in ‘The Witch a la Mode’ is called Bernard Coutts; and the links here are with the young teacher in ‘Lesson on the Tortoise’, and with Cyril Mersham. But the woman is based on Helen Corke*, and a whole set of themes is derived from that relationship.

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*Helen Corke was one of Lawrence intimage girlfriends. In "Sons and Lovers" the character of Clara is partly based on Helen Corke, along with other women Lawrence knew at that time period.

Biograhical references below from D.H.Lawrence A Calendar of his Works by Sager

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1911 at 12 Colworth Road, Croydon in school terms until the end of September, when the Jonese moved to 16 Colworth Road. On 29th July Lawrence, Ada and Louie Burrows* went to Prestatyn in North Wales for the fortnight. Lawrence spent frequent weekends at the Burrows home in Quorn.

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Louie Burrows was Lawrence's finance at one time. Therefore the character of Connie was probably partly based on her.

This next part is from Lawrence's diary or a letter; in the Timeline book:

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SUMMARY …and , in the sick year after [the death of his mother]. The collapse for me of Miriam [Jessie Chambers], and of Helen [Corke], and of the other woman, the woman of ‘Kisses in the Train’ and ‘Hands of the Betrothed’[Louie Burrows]. Then, in that year, for me, everything collapsed, save the mystery of death, and the haunting of death in life. I was twenty-five, and from the death of my mother, the world began to dissolve around me, beautiful, iridescent, but passing away substancesless. Till I almost dissolved away myself, and was very ill. [CP 851]

Lawrence continued to work on Paul Morel. He wrote the first versions of the stories ultimately known as ‘The Witch a la Mode’[C215 A71], ‘The Old Adam’[A71], ‘Daughters of the Vicar’[A6], ‘Second Best’[C9 A6], ‘The Shades of Spring’[C18 A6] and rewrote most of his earlier stories…..

12 APRIL The third story was probably ‘Intimacy’ (‘Witch a la Mode’). ‘Intimacy’ was certainly written about his time [Corke 210]. The story describes a musical evening at the home of the pianist Laura Macartney at Purley, Lawrence attended several such evenings in the spring and summer of 1911, including 6 April. In the story, however, it is ‘an evening in March’.

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During this time period, it seemed that Lawrence was struggling greatly with his writing, especially that of Paul Morel, which later became Sons and Lovers. Somedays he could not even write a word. Also,= to note, would be the fact that he was working at the same time (while writing these short stories and his novel) at Croydon as a school teacher. His severe illness that almost claimed his life after his mother’s death, halted any further working in a teaching environment. Also, what stood out to me, when reading more about this time period in The Calender of his Works, was the fact, that Lawrence was very much fluctuating between his sketching, drawing, painting and his writing. If he wrote one day, he concentrated on his visual art the next one or even few days, in-between. In my own opinion, in this time frame the stories reflect very much this sad personal time in this young writers life and also his intense and visionary skill at painting with words.
Also to note, is all the sadness and confusion he was experienceing at this time, having broken his ties with three woman he had been very close to, and the loss his mother.

So what does everyone say, shall we begin reading the story and start discussing, that is when everyone has completed their reading and is ready?

Well I hope to have the story read over the weakend. I am looking forward to it.

Fabulous intorduction Janine. :thumbs_up I started skimming last night. But it will take a while for me to really read it. I usually don't comment until I've read it twice.

I should hopefully have the story read on Firday. Usually I will read the story over once and post my initial coments, thoughts, impression and such, than as the discussion progressess I will begin to rexamine the story looking for sepcific things and such.

Hi Everybody!

Quotes by Antiquarian

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Sounds wonderful, Janine. Thanks for all the background. And the montage (is that the right word) is lovely.

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Glad it enticed you to read the story, Antiquarian.
Oh, thank you! Yes, it is a montage but in my program it was called a composite. It really wasn’t exactly what I had in-mind, because I could not make piano keys, an oil lamp (couldn’t find a broken one or one with a flame) or the anemones (poppies) and a violin work all together. After I finished and posted that photo, half satisfied I thought of how I could have done it…by making the photo long and thin and putting a bit of each image next to each other…oh well, I will use that method next time. At least this one is eye-catching with the red and I thought she would have had to pick the poppies in the field and also red is so symbolic of flame or fire, don’t you think?
These montage/composites are fun to make. I have an old Adobe Photo Deluxe program (old now) that will do so many cool artistic things with photos.

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I think I can read the story tomorrow while my husband's at the gym. At least I hope so. I'm looking forward to it, too, DM. Sounds great.

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Glad everyone is looking forward to this. All your enthusiasm is great to feel; it's infectious!:D

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I should follow that practice, Virgil. I often comment on things before I've thought them through, then have to make new comments correcting myself.

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Hey, Antiquarian, I think we all do that; we are only human and sometimes our minds rush ahead of us. It is good to see such enthusiasm actually. I have been doing it more lately too, like in the Chekhov thread and then changing my mind about what I wrote, prior to my last post. It is getting confusing in there and I am a bit tired now of the last story. Hope Quark picks a new one soon. Maybe the fact we have picked one here will encourage him.

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I read the story this afternoon and enjoyed it very much. I'll have to read it again before I comment, though.

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Fabulous, so glad you liked it,Antiquarian. I agree – it is always best to read the story again. I sometimes read them 3 and 4 times.
I have to go and get the online text today to past into my Word program – then I make a shortcut right to my desktop. I found this works so well. Also, if you pull up two Microsoft Work windows you can write comments/notes in the second one, so you can post those online later. It is sometimes easier that way to see the story, directly in front of you. So many ‘key’ words become apparent.

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I should hopefully have the story read on Friday. Usually I will read the story over once and post my initial coments, thoughts, impression and such, than as the discussion progressess I will begin to rexamine the story looking for sepcific things and such.

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Dark Muse, would it help you, if we started actually discussing this story on late weekend,...or even Monday? I know my weekends usually end up being a little hectic, and I know right now, I am needing to get my housework at least set up to do, if not scratch the surface; I need do some straightening today. I keep putting it off and I am literally tripping over things like shoes and flip-flops :lol: and books, books, books! A, you will never live that ‘flip-flop’ remark down with me now! :lol: I don’t know – what is the general consensus here? That would give Quark and islandclimber a chance to read the story. They both showed great interest in it. Hey, where are those guys anyway? Probably they are still reading….of goofing off and drinking tea…see the Chekhov thread. They are having quite a teaparty in there. :lol:


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Fabulous introduction Janine. I started skimming last night. But it will take a while for me to really read it. I usually don't comment until I've read it twice.

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Thanks so much, Virgil. It took me a long time to type all of that in in the introduction…it is good to be appreciated; thanks! I didn’t want to use my scanner since my computer has been acting up (super-slow) and besides the information was from different books. I have much more commentary on this story, I think. I will be checking other books to see what I can dig up. This was one of Lawrence's popular stories, I believe. Isn't the title a neat one?