D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Quark]

I have been meaning to ask you this Quark? Did you say once that you read "The White Peacock" - I read that novel recently; it is rare to find the book and I just wondered how you came across it, and what you thought L's very first published novel? I may have you confused with someone else; let me know.

I didn't read all of it, but I did skim through part of it one day I was in my university library. My school had a copy of it on shelf, and I was curious. I brought it up before because it has much to do with society's infringement on private experience, and I was making some point or other along those lines.

[Janine]

I didn't read all of it, but I did skim through part of it one day I was in my university library. My school had a copy of it on shelf, and I was curious. I brought it up before because it has much to do with society's infringement on private experience, and I was making some point or other along those lines.

Ah ha...then it was you, Quark, ....interesting. You probably mentioned it when we discussed "Sons and Lovers". There are some stunningly beautiful passages in "The White Peacock" - descriptions of nature and the woodlands, that just take your breath away. I am always meaning to post some of them on the forum somewhere. I wish I could find someone who read the whole book to discuss it with. It is an early work of L's. I think he was only in his early 20's, when he wrote it...still I think it has merit, although flawed and I would even read it again. Not as polished and complete as his other works, but it shows the young thoughts in L's head that would later take root in other significant works, which is highly interesting to me, at least. I did not regret buying it for my L collection. I have over 20 plus books now; can you believe it?

[Virgil]

No, Janine, I don't have a volume of Lawrence's short stories, but I'd like to get one on Monday. Can you suggest one? Thanks! And thank you for the other suggestion. I'll look for it online and print it out until I get a book.

Anti, Lawrence's Complete short stories come in paperback, three volumes I'm afraid. I think Penguin publishes them. If you find the paperbacks it's not too expensive.

Virgil, I printed out "The Horse Dealer's Daughter" and I loved the story.

I liked the fact that it wasn't a romantic story in any sense. Not really.

No it's not romantic in the usual sense. It's really a good introduction to Lawrence's themes. If you read pages 2 through 6 or 7 of this thread you'll see our discussion on this story.

I did notice that Lawrence used "horsy terms" to describe Mabel's three brothers. A touch of humor, perhaps? Joe is described as "...broad and handsome in a hot, flushed way" and having "...a sensual way of uncovering his teeth when he laughed." Fred Henry was "...erect, clean -limbed, alert" and "...carried himself with a well-tempered air of mastery." A very different kind of horse from Joe, but still, a horse. Later, Joe even "...straddled his knees with a downward jerk, to get them free, in horsy fashion, and went to the fire." And he "...stood with his knees stuck out, in real horsy fashion."

Yes, actually you found more than I ever noticed.

I think a turning point in the story comes when Mabel visits her mother's grave. Lawrence writes: "Mindless and persistent, she seemed in a sort of ecstasy to be coming nearer to her fulfillment, her own glorification, aproaching her dead mother, who was glorified." This, of course, seems to foreshadow Mabel's suicide attempt. As well as this: "For the life she followed here in the world was far less real than the world of death she inherited from her mother." This line also tells me Mabel isn't quite emotionally healthy.

That graveyard scene really holds the key to the story.

I really don't understand Dr. Fergusson's change of heart. He admits he had absolutely no feelings of love for Mabel prior to her suicide attempt and his rescue of her, yet watching her tend her mother's grave, prior to her suicide attempt, he thinks, "It seemd to mesmerize him. There was a heavy power in her eyes which laid hold of his whole being, as if he had drunk some powerful drug. He had been feeling weak and done before. Now the life came back into him, he felt delivered from his own fretted, daily self."

I see Dr. Ferguson as having a similar internal crises as Mabel, but his activity in the world masks or holds off the a sterility that makes life worthless.

After Dr. Fergusson pulls Mabel from the pond, fire and warmth seem to be a symbol of rebirth, for both of them. Rebirth or life or perhaps awakening. Fergusson thinks: "But there was another desire in him. And she seemed to hold him. His will seemed to have gone to sleep, and left him, standing there slack before her. But he felt warm inside himself. He did not shudder at all, though his clothes were sodden on him."

I agree.

Later: "It was as if she had the life of his body in her hands, and he could not extricate himself. Or perhaps he did not want to." "His soul seemed to melt." "He had never thought of loving her. He had never wanted to love her. And yet - and yet - he had not the power to break away." "In view of the delicate flame which seemed to come from her face like a light, he was powerless." "A flame seemed to burn the hand that grasped her soft shoulder." And there are more references to heat and flame and fire.

Later: "Only now it had become indispensable to him to have her face pressed close to him; he could never let her go again. He could never let her head go away from the close clutch of his arm. He wanted to remain like that forever."

That is beautiful.

I liked the story very, very much, but remember, I have not read Lawrence, so have no frame of reference.

I felt bad for Mabel, primarily because of her mother's death and Mabel's extraordinary closeness to her, but I couldn't like Mabel. There was something so strange in Fergusson as well. One does not "fall in love" that quickly and that easily. Or perhaps I just don't have enough of the romantic in me. I don't for one second believe in "love at first sight." I believe love grows, with careful tending and care, over a long period of time. This didn't seem to be lust, either. Perhaps Fergusson felt responsible for Mabel because he saved her life? I know people sometimes form an inordinate attachment to someone they've saved from death.

Lawrence would not go for love at first sight type of love either. I think the key to the characters is the dead world in which they live and the rebirth of finding someone who can piece back the fragments.

All in all, I really enjoyed the story and am looking forward to whatever Janine chooses. I'm sure I'll love it.

Well, welcome to our Lawrence group.

[Janine]

This post only refers to the first story you read, Antiquarian...I did not see you sneak in there with the second one. Both of your posts were excellent and very intuitive. Going back to read the older posts, would give you much insight into "Odour of Chrysanthamums" - that is a very early Lawrence story and it has biographical significance as well. It was all brought up in the posts. We discussed that one quite a bit. It is just so sad you did not discover this thread earlier. Hey, better late than never. We did do some great stories so far. If you adored 'Odour of Chryanthamums' you will love "Sons and Lovers". I will post more comments on your second story reading soon, that is unless Virgil beats me to it. It definitely does contain much symbolism (and you have very intuitively picked much of it out, good job, A). I believe the use of the color 'red' refers to Lawrence's 'blood philosophy', which can't be explained easily to you right now...it is complicated, complex. If you read those old posts you will get a better sense of all of this -symbolism, transfiguration, symbolism, Christ references, etc....these are very much part of the whole Lawrencian way of thinking.

Antiquarian, I was going to suggest the same thing that you go and read the posts, because if you do, you will understand Lawrence's way of thinking better in conjunction with this story. It has much to do with his idea of 'transfiguration', isn't that right, Virgil? This is something Virgil introduced to me, awhile back, in Lawrence's work; this being due to his well researched thesis on the subject in L's later works. 'The Horse-Dealer's Daughter' is in Volume 3 of the "Complete Short Stories" of D.H.Lawrence, so therefore it falls somewhere in-between Lawrence's full development of the idea.

Now that you have been talking about the story and refreshing my mind, I don't think I want to stand by my earlier statement that "it was my least favorite" - but it was still not my favorite; probably because of the reasons you pointed out about believing the validity of the love at the end. I do think the end leaves one with a sense of wondering, though, if it will indeed work out for the two. I think it is slightly open-ended or so I debated this way back in those discussion pages, if my memory serves me right.

Antiquarian, I agree with Virgil, I like how you pointed out the horse references in regard to Mabel's brothers - that was quite interesting and YES, Lawrence certainly did have a good 'sense of humor', from the accounts I have read in his biographies.

A, I am so glad you liked the story and enjoyed reading it. Lawrence's work is descriptively beautiful and always full of imagery and many times lovely references to nature. I know the more you read of him, the more you will like his style and work. He is not sentimental or romantic but in many ways to me, at least I feel more 'romantic' reading his work, than blantantly romantic novelists. I think it is all in the way one defines romance. Same applies to love. As in the Chekhov thread I think Lawrence would agree that 'love is a great mystery'.

Antiquarian, About 'The Complete Short Stories" - this has always been the difficulty. I know they are published by Penquin and also by Viking, but I am not too sure this complete set is still in print. Quark tried to order some L books from B&N and found each book cost about $30. I was lucky to own Volume 3 (paperback) for some time; last year I filled in the set and ordered a used copy of Volume 1 and the seller threw in free Volume 2 - needless to say Volume 2 is falling appart....oh well, I can't complain - that one was free and it is still readable. Seriously, I didn't lose out, I bought them from an independent Amazon seller in the "new and used' section and they have served my purposes just fine. I looked recently for Quarkin those listings and saw a number of sellers offering them and they were pretty reasonable; way more reasonable than the $30 fee at B&N. I would buy them used from a good Amazon seller with 98% plus feedback rating. You might be able to find one seller selling all three and get combined shipping, who knows...but it is worth a try.

[Virgil]

I don't have much time left tonight, but here Anti, amazon and the complete short stories:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...ories+Lawrence

[Quark]

I did not understand the significance of the color red, which is mentioned so many times in the story. Walter is not injured, at least not visibly. He's not cut. He did not bleed during his dying. Maybe you, or someone else, can shed some light on the significance of all the uses of the color red. All the mention of it. (I can go back and find your discussion as well.) Perhaps it signifies passion? I don't know, I just know I was struck by the many times red is mentioned.

Wasn't red linked to life or vitality? I think both red and fire were used this way in the story. I remember fire symbolizing life very clearly, but I'm not so sure about the color red. What was the color used to describe?

[Janine]

I don't have much time left tonight, but here Anti, amazon and the complete short stories:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...ories+Lawrence

Virgil and Antiquarian, I just looked at that Amazon list, but I am not sure about that first one - it really does not state what it contains - here is the direct link - http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Short...74/ref=sr_1_1?

This is a publisher I have not heard of and it says it has 800 plus pages. One seller has it for $8.88 new, but beware he only has 95% pos feedback. The others are in the various volumes 1, 2, 3. If this first one is complete then it would be a good buy, I guess, and there are other sellers, all that are reasonable are used. Some have creased on the front cover.

Quark, that is true what you said about the fire, but I think the red does symbolise blood and L's blood philosophy. Virgil can explain this far better than I can.

[Janine]

Thank you Janine, Virgil, and Quark. I just read your discussion posts. Very, very interesting and enlightening.

Oh, good; then you found those helpful? Glad we could be of service.

Quark, the color red was used to describe many things in the story, but mostly the fire, I think. At one point, even the chrysanthemums were said to be "reddish-brown" before they were described a "pink." I found it significant that one of the men broke the vase of chrysanthemums when carrying Walter's body into the parlour.

Yes, the vase breaking was very significant and symbolic. I forget now just what we said about that; I am sure we covered it way back then. I should review those posts myself.
Antiquarian, I just bought an early Lawrence play on DVD (adaptation) and it is called "The Widowing of Mrs. Holryod" and as I was viewing it I realised it is almost identical to the short story. It was a very good play and interesting to see it played out with real people and characters - especially the washing of the body, as you pointed out so much like the washing of Christ's body.

Virgil, thank you for the link.

Janine, I have Sons and Lovers on my shelf. I'll have to read it soon, as I did love "Odour of Chrysanthemums."

Antiquarian, how funny, 4 of us are online now, we all have green lights, did you notice? Hey, where is Dark Muse? We can hardly keep up with each other! I know you will love "Sons and Lovers" - one can't easily forget that novel ever.

[Quark]

I don't have much time left tonight, but here Anti, amazon and the complete short stories:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...ories+Lawrence

Thanks for the link, Virgil. Amazon always has a good selection, and you can't beat the prices. One of the books on that page is listed as $0.01 and up. The penny Lawrence is probably in bad shape; but, as long as all the pages are there, I don't care if it was run over by a tank. All I need are the stories.

Quark, the color red was used to describe many things in the story, but mostly the fire, I think. At one point, even the chrysanthemums were said to be "reddish-brown" before they were described a "pink." I found it significant that one of the men broke the vase of chrysanthemums when carrying Walter's body into the parlour.

Oh, then I think I'm right about the connection between red and life. What did you make of the flowers, though?

[Janine]

Thanks for the link, Virgil. Amazon always has a good selection, and you can't beat the prices. One of the books on that page is listed as $0.01 and up. The penny Lawrence is probably in bad shape; but, as long as all the pages are there, I don't care if it was run over by a tank. All I need are the stories.

Quark, you are a riot! Can the book have splatterings of coffee on it, too? Oh my goodness - you will buy a wreck of a book and pay $3.95 shipping for a 1 cent book. You might find you have to glue the whole thing back together again. I have to go and check that list out again. By the way, Q, when do I get my Chekhov addition you so generously offered me? I am still working on your CD's. My burner is acting up and can't burn the last one yet. They are in the making though.

Oh, then I think I'm right about the connection between red and life. What did you make of the flowers, though?

I think we all need to go back and read our former posts. We don't seem to recall just what we said about the red or the fire.

[Quark]

Can the book have splatterings of coffee on it, too? Oh my goodness - you will buy a wreck of a book and pay $3.95 shipping for a 1 cent book. You might find you have to glue the whole thing back together again.

They would charge some egregious amount for shipping, wouldn't they? $3.96 is still not bad, though. It's definitely better than the $35 estimate I got at my bookstore.

I have to go and check that list out again. By the way, Q, when do I get my Chekhov addition you so generously offered me? I am still working on your CD's. My burner is acting up and can't burn the last one yet. They are in the making though.

Well you never gave me your address. I can't just write "Jersey" on the envelope and expect it to go anywhere. Plus, I'm not sure if I should be surrendering my book before I get the CD's. Where are they? If you don't hurry, I might grow attached to my book and call the deal off.

I think we all need to go back and read our former posts. We don't seem to recall just what we said about the red or the fire.

Did I just contradict myself, or something? We did discuss it, and I think I'm reciting our conclusion--if we did reach one.

[Dark Muse]

Well if you live anywhere near any mom and pop type of bookstores, that deal in buying and selling of old/used books, I have a few stores like that around here where I get most all my books for. And the most exepsnivie I pay for a book there is 6$ on average they are usually around 3 and 4. And if you have any old books you don't want anymore you can trade them in for store credit.

[islandclimber]

Ah ha...then it was you, Quark, ....interesting. You probably mentioned it when we discussed "Sons and Lovers". There are some stunningly beautiful passages in "The White Peacock" - descriptions of nature and the woodlands, that just take your breath away. I am always meaning to post some of them on the forum somewhere. I wish I could find someone who read the whole book to discuss it with. It is an early work of L's. I think he was only in his early 20's, when he wrote it...still I think it has merit, although flawed and I would even read it again. Not as polished and complete as his other works, but it shows the young thoughts in L's head that would later take root in other significant works, which is highly interesting to me, at least. I did not regret buying it for my L collection. I have over 20 plus books now; can you believe it?

well... this is quite funny... I read this book several years ago, and until you mentioned it here I would not for the life of me have recalled that it was by Lawrence... I really loved his descriptions of nature and the woodlands too.. and the book on the whole I loved.. I like books sometimes that are flawed to a greater degree, are a bit rough around the edges, touched by some youthful sentiments and ideas.. polished isn't always the best in my opinion... someday I would discuss it with you if you wanted, though for now, time is at a premium for me....

speaking of nature, when I was rock climbing this evening just before dark, I had a bat fly right of the crack I was climbing... I had my hand buried in the crack and a bat flew almost right into my fast, a couple inches over my head, it almost made me fall... and at 80 ft up the cliff it was a good thing I was climbing with a rope

well, this brief return is drawing to an end... work beckons with dark and dismal fingers, and I have not the power to say no... oh well... I will be back someday...

[Janine]

The play sounds very interesting, Janine. If I ever see it, I will pick it up, providing it's not too expensive. I am anxious to read Sons and Lovers now. I read novels and short stories at the same time, so I'll probably read it as soon as I finish with the novel I'm working my way through.

Antiquarian, I bought the play from Amazon recently, but of course, it is not for everyone; I buy all that I can afford of L's work if it interests me. In fact, today I got something new in the mail, really a 'used' book from and an Amazon seller: Lawrence's "Phoenix - The Posthumus Papers", which I have been tracking down now for a good year. It came in used but fairly good condition, so I am thrilled. One more book to add to my extensive L collection. Do you think I will ever get around to reading all of these? I will try.

"The Widowing of Mrs. Holyroyd" is an older play, that was shown on public and network television. The play stars Geraldine Fizgerald, Joyce Ebert, Rex Robbins and Frank Converse. On the back of the DVD it states, this was originally staged for the theatre by The Long Wharf Theatre.

I felt the acting was very fine and intense. It differs from the short story, in that it also includes a third party, a young man who is friends of the family and the wife, especially. This added element complicates the situation, as you can imagine; I suppose Lawrence took the story one step further in the play, although I think the short story brings out more of the symbolism, and the inner dialogue of the woman, which is not as apparent in the play.

I found the complete text of the play online and I will send you the link, so you can read it first. I did not read it yet, but I plan to and then watch the play again. The play DVD was produced by Kultur and if you go to their website; www.Kultur.com Don't buy it yet; I will email you with more information; a hair's breath away from finishing you email, last night, but had to quit and go to bed, was super late. We might be able to work something out.

Oh, you will love it, Antiquarian. I recently directed islandclimber to the site and he said he loved it and would buy some of the things he saw there, but probably by tracking them down from Amazon. You can find them much cheaper on A. The site produces DVD's of noted Operas, Ballets, Orchestras, Plays, etc....the arts.

Hi Everyone I seriously am working on posting the next story. I am still a little undecided and want to review a few more before I post. I got held up last night and did not review all that I hoped to. I did reread one but still I am not sure about that one, although I may pick it, even though it seems to be a simpler story to me. All that I read I enjoyed and thought they were quite good. I will try to post later tonight and if I don't make that deadline I will post it tomorrow. Sorry for this short delay.

In the meantime, and during my researching for a new story, I happened to look in the back of my Michael Black commentary book in the notes and found this, which may directly correspond to the idea of the color 'red' in the story "Odour of Chrysanthemums" and other stories where 'blood' and 'red' is mentioned throughout Lawrence texts. This is a footnote:

From "D.H.LAWRENCE The Early Fiction" by Michael Black:

Jeremiah 17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and deperately wicked: who can know it?

Cruden defined the Biblical heart: 'The word heart is used in Scriptures as the seat of life or strength; hence it means mind, soul, spirit, or one's entire emotional nature and understanding. It is also used as the centre or inner part of a 'thing'. This is an important instance of the consonance of Lawrence's way of using words like heart or blood, and the Biblical network of meanings.

Quote in a Lawrence letter:

"My great religion is a belief in the blood, the flesh, as being wiser than the intellect. We can go wrong in our minds. But what our blood feels and believes and says, is always true. The intellect is only a bit and a bridle. What do I care about knowledge. All I want is to answer to my blood, direct, without fribbling intervention of mind, or moral, or what not."

This is a letter, we remember; written swiftly as an expression of the moment's mood, and not on oath. So, it is free and emphatic and without afterthought. We, reading now, may have our own afterthoughts before we start taking this as a rule of life. For the moment however, it is worth saying that direct access to the association process, and the fictions in their larger aspect, give us a sense of what is meant by the 'blood'.

Then Black goes on to show some stories as examples; then he proceeds:

...;we reflect that the artist speaks in the letter, and has told us not to trust him, but to 'trust the tale'. The artist, however, continues in his vein of central utterance, and veers into ofn of this great metaphors:
"I conceive a man's body as a kind of flame, like a candle flame forever upright and yet flowing: and the intellect is just the light that is shed onbto the things around. And I am not so much concerned with the things around; --which is really mind: --but with the mystery of the flame forever flowing, coming God knows how from our of practically nowhere, and being itself, whateve there is around it, that it lights up. We have got so ridiculously mindful, that we never know that we ourselves are anything -- we think there are only the objects we shine upon. And thre the poor flame goes burning ignored, to produce this light. And instead of chasing the mystery in the fugitive, hald lighted things outside us, we ought to look at ourselves, and say 'My God, I am myself!"

I shall show that the candle-flame, golden and warm, associated with the sweetness of honey and the warmth of the sun, is a cardinal point to which Lawrence's compass naturally sets. It is opposed in Lawrence's associative world to the fierce white light of the pressure lamp, to the coldness of moonlight, and the corrosive power of salt glittering in the light like the pillar which once was Lot's wife. The cold white light is indentified with mind, and the warm gold one with being.

This commentary with excerpts from Lawrence's early letters says so much and I think it can apply to a number of the stories we read so far. I am thinking of not only 'Odour of Chysanthemums' but also, 'The Prussian Officer', 'Sun' and 'The Man Who Loved Islands'....also to note is the reference of the pillar of salt in relation to the story 'Two Blue Birds.

In relation to 'O of C', I would say, that this pretty well describes the difference in the warm 'red' color and the cold 'white' color of the flowers/the light. Now, Antiquarian, you can see the significance. Didn't you say there were two colors of flowers? I will have to look that up in the story. I know the lantern light is a start contrast to the impending darkness, and used to contrast and represent the deeper elements in the story. Now I see the significance of the stark light and the breaking of the lamp - wasn't the lamp globe broken, as well as the vase? It has been awhile since I read that story, so please forgive my poor memory. In the play, the lamp globe and the vase both are broken.

Hope all of this helps your greater understanding of Lawrence and how he wrote and thought. This is only a short introduction and Lawrence, of course is much more complex than this and than can be put down in only one post.

[Janine]

well... this is quite funny... I read this book several years ago, and until you mentioned it here I would not for the life of me have recalled that it was by Lawrence... I really loved his descriptions of nature and the woodlands too.. and the book on the whole I loved.. I like books sometimes that are flawed to a greater degree, are a bit rough around the edges, touched by some youthful sentiments and ideas.. polished isn't always the best in my opinion... someday I would discuss it with you if you wanted, though for now, time is at a premium for me....

speaking of nature, when I was rock climbing this evening just before dark, I had a bat fly right of the crack I was climbing... I had my hand buried in the crack and a bat flew almost right into my fast, a couple inches over my head, it almost made me fall... and at 80 ft up the cliff it was a good thing I was climbing with a rope

well, this brief return is drawing to an end... work beckons with dark and dismal fingers, and I have not the power to say no... oh well... I will be back someday...

Quark, islandclimber and Dark Muse, sorry I did not see you post; I was busy with my long post and typing out all that stuff from my reference book; I hope you all can take the time to read it. I think this will shed some light on many things we have discussed lately and before in each story.

Dark Muse, I love to puruse used-book stores and even thrift-stores for books; you never know what you will find. It is such an adventure.


Quark, I will send you my address, so you don't change your mind. But seriously, if you really want to keep that book, that is fine with me. I can order a used one from Amazon, if you just tell me which one to get. I am working on the CD's; didn't you read my post? I said my burner program is not working correctly right now, so I have to work on my computer, reducing hard-drive space to clear up the problem. I have 2 of the Chekhov set burned for both you and for Virgil, so far. I told islandclimber I would send him a set too, and that is when the burner started to not burn. I have had this problem before, and feel sure I can solve it, given a little time. It is some problem in the program - some quirk. I can send you the first two CD's I have burned, if you want. Most of the stories are on those - 'In the Ravine' only, I believe, is on Disc three.

islandclimber, glad to see you back. Wow, that is some story - truly scary. You had better be careful. Bats and climbing together could be dangerous. I would hate to see you get hurt or worse. Here I thought you ran off for good; or you might have fallen off - heaven forbid it! We miss you here. I hope you can find time to stop back soon. How interesting that you read "The White Peacock" - how did you manage to find the book? I simply loved it, even knowing it to be imperfect. I thought the woodland and field passages were just breath-taking. I loved especially the part about the bird's nest in the hollow of the cow's hoof prints in the mud, out in the field; I adored the passage with the snowdrops, as well. Someone did a study of how many flowers and fauna Lawrence mentions in that novel and it was phenomenal! Lawrence was a avid student of botany. He just loved flowers and plants so passionately and it shows in his descriptions. This probably early on sprung, from his mother's passion for her beloved rose garden; he would help her gardening and he loved roses. I read this very touching passage, he wrote in a letter, when he was quite young, and he mentions that he is outside their house, sitting under the liliac bush. I actually got goosebumps reading it, because the description was so vivid and personal that one felt one knew him on an intimate level; also because of the fact, that liliacs are my favorite flowers. To me that novel has some of the loveliest passages Lawrence ever wrote and to think he was so young when he composed it. He was such a natural talent and genius.