Why does a good God promote suffering?

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Originally Posted by dwdean

your analogy, while well thought out, lacks one element. the difference between the bomber's creation (bomb) and God's creation (mankind) is that a bomb cannot choose. mankind has freewill, does he not?

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If there is an omniscient and omnipotent god there is no free will. (I presented this argument in detail earlier in the thread. It is the last post on page 3). Even if this were the case we would still need to act as if there were free will, but that is another matter. From a god's eye perspective, the homicidal action of every killer is as inevitable and predictable as the explosion of the bomb. The only difference between the god's action in creating a killer and the bomber's action in creating the bomb is that the god is absolutely certain that someone will die by his action, whereas the bomber can't be sure.

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Originally Posted by dwdean

God may know what man will choose to do, but He does not Himself choose to do those things.

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Yes, he does! By willing the existence of the entity that does "those things" he is choosing with complete knowledge and intention that those things be done, and that they be done in a certain precise way and no other. It is a direct chain of causation.

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Originally Posted by dwdean

your analogy, while well thought out, lacks one element. the difference between the bomber's creation (bomb) and God's creation (mankind) is that a bomb cannot choose. mankind has freewill, does he not? God may know what man will choose to do, but He does not Himself choose to do those things.

this argument will inevitably return to Descarte's Meditation on First Philosophy.

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Free will is only an illusion if God already knows what is going to happen to us. It's like watching a movie, not liking it, then re-watching it and getting mad that it wasn't better the second time around.

Basically, if the future is concrete and knowable, then you cannot do whatever you want. You can only do what you will do. It's not really fair to punish someone for doing something that they had to do (because it was their destiny).

You could even take this further and say that since God is all-knowing and all-powerful he has complete knowledge and control over every aspect of all life. This pretty much reduces us to characters in God's story and our fates are utterly at his whim.

if i look at an atlas while standing in california, and if find the most direct route to nc (i40e) does that mean that i will definitely take i40east? no, it means that i know it's an option.
God sees the possible outcomes of all our choices and how they affect the choices of others and how those choices affect the... you get it. that is different from dictating those choices.

think of it this way. you can reply to this thread or not. God knows what you will do and He also knows the domino affect of that choice. but does he cause that? no, you do. if you don't believe me, turn off your computer and don't reply. or keep it on and give your differing opinion. your choice. not mine, not God's, yours alone.

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.

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Originally Posted by cyberbob

I'm not worried about anybody. I'm just giving one example of how God's psychic abilities don't fit in with the idea of free will.

And there's a difference between a "small n little" teacher who can guess which of his students will pass and fail a test and God KNOWING who will be saved and who won't due to his ability to SEE THE FUTURE.

You can't just fail students because you'd get fired. God has no one to answer to though. If he already knows who's going to sin and who won't, and sinning is the criteria by which we are judged, then our individual fates were sealed from the beginning of time (assuming God does not change his mind [why would he?]).

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example of misscariage proved God's pyschic abilities ? dont fit in with the idea of free will? lolzz who one can say where those children will go except God? may be go back to notingness. but who do this will be asked at judgment day. why they did this?.
i have many good reasons in favor for what u wanna to prove anyway. little bit i explained in previous posts as well.
2ndy you said i cant just fail student coz i'd get fired haha i was the principal as well. but point is that being a small teacher i could judge by efforts of students by the sincerity towards their exams. why not God predict ? whose guess can be more accurate than God? He is running all the universes, sun moon stars earth with a perfect guess. He is the creator of time n space. this time is finite, this space is finite according to Him as He told. human is still not able to reach or measure even the distances of a single universe. trillions and trillions light years!

my dear ? is there any system in the world who just give the reward or punishment without exam ? is their any university or college who just gave you degree or certificarte without exam. i was just telling that God knows the capablities of everyone. but He give the chance to choose.
in wider canvas He knows everything as well wht will you choose so He wrote everything. and people blame Him that He didnt give the chance and wrote all ready everything.

and as i also said about the other extreme who says everything has been given in human's hand is also wrong. my dear fellows! without pray human become proudier. those who are humble do pray. one just have to understand what is right and what is wrong. and than? intention for doing good and pray. intention creates actions. intention decided on which way one will go.
my dear may God give you the way! this discussion of destiny is very complicated. only those who are not serious to solve the ist basic question always ready to talk about the matter to hide their laziness. but if someone is really interested to talk like this ist of all have to find whether God exist or not. if He exist than He can do everything. He know everything. He should be the Lord of all universes and earths and skies.

Trust in God is dishonest.

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Originally Posted by blithe spirit

because hell for eternity is no fun.

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You got that right. So.... why does God allow hell for eternity? Isn't this a set-up for suffering so to speak? Because he knows that x amount of people will end up in heaven right? Could he not just end the existence of sinful souls completely rather than have them suffer for eternity? Eternity is such an evil notion in itself. Doesn't he forgive? Or isn't he supposed to? I mean ETERNITY!!! That's the thing I don't understand. Isn't a hundred, a thousand, a million years enough? Or a trillion? No no no, it HAS to be eternity. Too harsh for my liking.. (with all respect).

I just wanted to bring this answer forth again. It was well stated.

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Originally Posted by togre

I consider our present suffering not worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed in us.

Romans 8:18


The following is the answer Scripture gives.

Fact: God created a world that was perfect--that is, without suffering and without any flaw.

Fact: Humans, when given freedom to remain perfect or to turn from God, turned from God.

Fact: This turning (Fall) changed each person and changed creation (the world). All now is marred. All now suffers and causes suffering.

Fact: All people who sin deserve eternal punishment in hell

Fact: Any suffering endured on earth, be it ever so great, is less than the suffering of hell.

Fact: God desires that people do not suffer hell. He went so far as to provide his Son as a Substitute with Jesus Christ willingly living and dieing to pay for our sins.

Fact: Because of this many, many people will rescued from hell and will dwell with God in heaven.

Fact: The joy of dwelling in heaven is greater than the suffering of living on earth.

Fact: In his desire that more people should trust his solution and be saved, God permits this world to continue, not because of the suffering that happens, but in spite of it.


Blithe Spirit makes some good points. God is able to make use of wickedness so that it serves good purpose. At the same time, suffering or even God himself cannot be comprehended apart from Jesus and his death on the cross.

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I don't want to make use of wickedness. I want to end wickedness, but then I'm not a monster.

Question for the Christians: Are all the deceased Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Jains, etc now suffering in Hell?

I hear at the gates of hell you're given an accordian instead of a harp. Now that would be tortuous!

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Originally Posted by Panglossian

Question for the Christians: Are all the deceased Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Jains, etc now suffering in Hell?

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The animals too?

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

The animals too?

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Actually, in respects to the animals, they do not have eternal souls. Once the flesh is dead, the creature returns to the dirt and is no more. However, in respects to mankind, as Christianity goes, it is believed that man (mankind) was created in the image of God with a soul (spirit) that lives on after the body dies. The concept of heaven is best explained as being in existence with God. God cannot be in union with that that has been corrupted by sin. It is against His nature and character. Therefore, He has provided a way that man can be free from his sin, and that is by the atonement of Christ. There are those who have not been corrupted by sin (i.e. children, and those who have not for various reasons come to the understanding of good and evil...mentally handicapped for instance). If one has obtained the cleansing from sin, then it is possible (not just possible, but assured) that he/she can be united with God (who is the source of spiritual life). I believe that the union with God after this physical life is done is heaven. I also believe that one who is not in that union will be completely separated from God, which is hell...a complete absence from God.

Thanks Bienvenu. I thought that was the case, but your answer has extended my understanding of Christian thought.

It's one of the problems I have with Christian concepts of creation, and the relationship of humans to animals to God etc. I appreciate that a Christian could see an animal as an expression of creation or God's work.

For myself, I don't see a lot of difference between animals and humans except in their various capacities for thought.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Thanks Bienvenu. I thought that was the case, but your answer has extended my understanding of Christian thought.

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To be fair, that's only one thread of Christian thought. There are others, including the Catholic notion of Original Sin, which suggests that all human beings are born corrupt. That one was dominant for the best part of two thousand years. It's still pretty widespread.


I rather like the idea that the Godless will be punished by being permitted to persist in their Godlessness. My concern is that such a construct is more likely Man's idea than God's, as God has not thus far demonstrated a talent for that kind of irony.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

The concept of heaven is best explained as being in existence with God. God cannot be in union with that that has been corrupted by sin. It is against His nature and character. Therefore, He has provided a way that man can be free from his sin, and that is by the atonement of Christ.

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What about the souls of all who died before Christ's sojourn to Earth 2,000 years ago?

God may be good and omni-benevolent, but in the bible he is also just and wise, you cannot exalt God to one attribute and say that is all he is, that is problematic theology. Since God has all possible knowledge he can let sin run its course he also has the power to turn a negative into a positive.

Panglossian- Yes, they will go to hell for rejecting God's offer. Sin has to be punished, but God loved the world so much that he sent his one and only son so that they might be saved, if those groups you say don't believe in Jesus then they won't be saved that is the reality. It is not all about religion or your beliefs, Jesus came not to start a new religion, but show the true reality, a relationship with the one true living God through him.

I don't know. God sent his only son? That's a joke. So what, he was crucified and then he died and now he's in heaven but in the end Jesus is only one guy! He may be the big man's only son but he is still one guy. What about the suffering the rest of us endures? What about the suffering endured by those affected by religious war or conflict? And all those people who came before Jesus, they're all going to hell!? How is that fair?

"Oh oops, I forget about them," says God.

And what is original sin again? Wasn't that when Adam decided to eat an apple in the Garden of Eden or something? And now we have to suffer for all eternity unless we pass some sort of entrance examination? What exactly is sin? What is Adam eating an apple supposed to symbolize? Aren't apples supposed to be good for you?

Why doe's God choose to lump us into one big group when we are individuals who cannot be expected to take responsibility for the actions of others?

My original question everyone tried to ignore or didn't notice: What about wars? Are we allowed to kill other human beings in the name of God? Are we allowed to fight in God's name?

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Originally Posted by thebagman

My original question everyone tried to ignore or didn't notice: What about wars? Are we allowed to kill other human beings in the name of God? Are we allowed to fight in God's name?

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Absolutely no. Thou Shalt Not Kill. Straight from the horse's mouth.

Then why do we do it? Almost all the time?

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Originally Posted by ChristopherAP

Panglossian- Yes, they will go to hell for rejecting God's offer. Sin has to be punished, but God loved the world so much that he sent his one and only son so that they might be saved, if those groups you say don't believe in Jesus then they won't be saved that is the reality. It is not all about religion or your beliefs, Jesus came not to start a new religion, but show the true reality, a relationship with the one true living God through him.

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So let's take the ancient Indian religion of Jainism - a non-violent, pacifist religion - all the thousands and thousands of "Jains" who have died over the last 10,000 years are now suffering in Hell just so the so-called true God can prove a point. That's a bit unfair, isn't it? Not to mention diabolical.

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Originally Posted by thebagman

Then why do we do it? Almost all the time?

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I would say that Christians who fight wars in the name of God are fakes.

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Originally Posted by Panglossian

I would say that Christians who fight wars in the name of God are fakes.

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Given that the commandment doesn't say 'Thou shalt not kill in the name of God', but simply 'Thou shalt not kill', one could argue that Christians who fight in any war are fakes.

Mark, this idea of "original sin." care to explain?
as i understand it, the catholic church holds that humans are born with sin because adam and eve sinned. we are therefore destined to hell unless we can be cleansed of all sin, including the separate, original sin. original sin is only forgiven if one is baptized by the catholic church. yes?

another confusion about christians and killing.

Moses came down from the mt with the 10 big ones, one of which states "though shalt not kill."
God later told His people, those same people, to overtake certain lands. this was done by God's people killing... what?

Incidentally, there's a story here that touches on this subject.

Bagman- You obviously cannot deal with the situation so you rely on fallacious reasoning and appeals to emotion to satisfy your unfeasible position. Jesus is not just a man, he is also God, he is the third part of the triune god-head, he has two natures: human and divine when he went to the cross he took all our sin, so that we can believe in him to be saved. Suffering is a by-product of sin, that is the nature of mankind.


Panglossian- Unfair? Sin is sin, it must be punished we were all dead, but through christ we are alive. It is not our fault that they refuse to accept Jesus Christ, if they don't than they will go to hell. God is an infinitely just God, sin is an act of rebellion and it must be punished. I don't think you have a standard by which you can judge God. I think all philosophy and theology need to be looked at more, end of discussion.

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Originally Posted by ChristopherAP

Panglossian- Unfair? Sin is sin, it must be punished we were all dead, but through christ we are alive. It is not our fault that they refuse to accept Jesus Christ, if they don't than they will go to hell. God is an infinitely just God, sin is an act of rebellion and it must be punished. I don't think you have a standard by which you can judge God. I think all philosophy and theology need to be looked at more, end of discussion.

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No it's not the end of the discussion. What about those millions of souls before Christ's earth visit? They couldn't refuse to accept Christ because they didn't know about Christ.

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Originally Posted by Panglossian

No it's not the end of the discussion. What about those millions of souls before Christ's earth visit? They couldn't refuse to accept Christ because they didn't know about Christ.

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There is no difference. Today we believe in a Savior who has come. Before, they trusted the promise of a Savior who was to come. The book of Hebrews holds up the faith of these "Old Testament believers" as an example for those of us who now live after Christ completed his work.

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Originally Posted by togre

There is no difference. Today we believe in a Savior who has come. Before, they trusted the promise of a Savior who was to come. The book of Hebrews holds up the faith of these "Old Testament believers" as an example for those of us who now live after Christ completed his work.

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By *they* you mean a very small percentage of the BC global population. Those who didn't or couldn't *know* were just left to go to hell (pardon the pun).

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Originally Posted by Panglossian

By *they* you mean a very small percentage of the BC global population. Those who didn't or couldn't *know* were just left to go to hell (pardon the pun).

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And, actually, it wouldn't matter if those who didn't or couldn't know were a tiny number. It wouldn't matter, in fact, if there were only a single individual. Because God, in order to be just, has to come up with a system of judgement that gives that one human being a fair shot at salvation, doesn't he?

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Originally Posted by Panglossian

By *they* you mean a very small percentage of the BC global population. Those who didn't or couldn't *know* were just left to go to hell (pardon the pun).

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Ah, but who's fault is that. At 2 points in history (post-Garden of Eden & post-Flood) knowledge of and belief in God were universal. Humans are the fault this knowledge is lost. We are horrified (and rightly so) when a pregnant mother does drugs since her child suffers from her actions. Ought we not be horrified when parents deprive their children of this vital information about God?

Furthermore, God has been active throughout history bringing his word to those who did not know it. Believers have always been expected to practice their faith and "give a reason for the hope they have" during the course of their daily life (What a tragedy when they don't!) God sent prophets and apostles to different nations directly in the Bible and sends them through the mission activity of his church for the last 2000 years. The very nation of Israel and the city of Jerusalem in the Old Testament was (among other things) to serve as a light on a hill by drawing the other nations to itself and to the Lord (again, the shame when they fell short. cf. the Minor Prophets for God's rebuke in this regard).

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

And, actually, it wouldn't matter if those who didn't or couldn't know were a tiny number. It wouldn't matter, in fact, if there were only a single individual. Because God, in order to be just, has to come up with a system of judgement that gives that one human being a fair shot at salvation, doesn't he?

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Actually, salvation is not required at all by God's justice. If God were only fair, he would need to save anyone. Salvation belongs to his mercy and compassion. Shakespeare seems to have got this--Though justice be thy plea, consider this,That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation.

God's compassion worked out salvation in such a way that he remains just and merciful.

Ah, but who's fault is that. At 2 points in history (post-Garden of Eden & post-Flood) knowledge of and belief in God were universal. Humans are the fault this knowledge is lost.

So, hang on - I'm born in rural China, in 1000BC, a long way from the Holy Land, with no chance of Moses happening by carrying tales of burning bushes and promised lands of milk and honey, and with absolutely no concept of the Old Testament Jehovah, nor any notion of an expected Messiah. And that's just tough, because I'm descended from Adam - of whom I've also never heard - and am therefore damned, and if I can't figure that out for myself and do something about it, that's my fault. Or possibly the fault of my long-dead ancestors, who, frankly, should have stuck closer to Mount Ararat rather than going forth and multiplying all over the Far East. Or, as it may be, New Zealand. Or Scotland. Or what would eventually become Hayes, Kansas.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Ah, but who's fault is that. At 2 points in history (post-Garden of Eden & post-Flood) knowledge of and belief in God were universal. Humans are the fault this knowledge is lost.

So, hang on - I'm born in rural China, in 1000BC, a long way from the Holy Land, with no chance of Moses happening by carrying tales of burning bushes and promised lands of milk and honey, and with absolutely no concept of the Old Testament Jehovah, nor any notion of an expected Messiah. And that's just tough, because I'm descended from Adam - of whom I've also never heard - and am therefore damned, and if I can't figure that out for myself and do something about it, that's my fault. Or possibly the fault of my long-dead ancestors, who, frankly, should have stuck closer to Mount Ararat rather than going forth and multiplying all over the Far East. Or, as it may be, New Zealand. Or Scotland. Or what would eventually become Hayes, Kansas.

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Incorrect....
According to Romans 2:14ff, "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

Those who did not have the Law of Moses, but still acted in a righteous manner, were a law unto themselves.

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Originally Posted by ChristopherAP

Bagman- You obviously cannot deal with the situation so you rely on fallacious reasoning and appeals to emotion to satisfy your unfeasible position. Jesus is not just a man, he is also God, he is the third part of the triune god-head, he has two natures: human and divine when he went to the cross he took all our sin, so that we can believe in him to be saved. Suffering is a by-product of sin, that is the nature of mankind.


Panglossian- Unfair? Sin is sin, it must be punished we were all dead, but through christ we are alive. It is not our fault that they refuse to accept Jesus Christ, if they don't than they will go to hell. God is an infinitely just God, sin is an act of rebellion and it must be punished. I don't think you have a standard by which you can judge God. I think all philosophy and theology need to be looked at more, end of discussion.

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What about those who never heard of Jesus, but otherwise lived sin free lives? Do they go to hell?

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

What about those who never heard of Jesus, but otherwise lived sin free lives? Do they go to hell?

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Who do you know that has lived a sin free life? There are those that do not know sin, I guess. If one is already free from sin, then they don't need saving from sin. It's really that simple.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Incorrect....
According to Romans 2:14ff, "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

Those who did not have the Law of Moses, but still acted in a righteous manner, were a law unto themselves.

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I am with you on this, BienvenuJDC, there must be a real rejection of God for a person to go to hell. I will be going to hell if there is a God. To commit a wrong is to sin against God; for this you must ask forgiveness. I never will, because pride is my greatest sin.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Those who did not have the Law of Moses, but still acted in a righteous manner, were a law unto themselves.

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even in talking about bc times, this is dangerous.

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Originally Posted by G L Wilson

I am with you on this, BienvenuJDC, there must be a real rejection of God for a person to go to hell. I will be going to hell if there is a God. To commit a wrong is to sin against God; for this you must ask forgiveness. I never will, because pride is my greatest sin.

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GL, ever read Paradise Lost?

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Incorrect....
According to Romans 2:14ff, "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

Those who did not have the Law of Moses, but still acted in a righteous manner, were a law unto themselves.

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Good - I'm glad it's incorrect. I'll pass that on to togre.

However, that's Paul speaking, whom you may think was talking on God's behalf, but whom I think was one of many Christian thinkers trying to formulate a rational interpretation of a rather inconsistent set of apparent injunctions.

If he's right, he's contradicting - or at least putting a pretty unexpected spin on - Jesus' statement that no one will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but through Himself.

But more importantly, from my point of view, he's giving a huge advantage to those who are 'a law unto themselves', who get into Heaven by essentially having been 'good people', without ever having committed to Christ. I mean - that's not fair. Under those circumstances, a lot of people would get in, had they not been labouring under the huge disadvantage of being born after 30BC and within the influence of the Christian church. That's a much easier route into Heaven.