The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

Yanni,

This thread is on your baseless speculation that Bach and Handel were one and the same person. That his musical output was at least twice as large as either of these composers. This is contradicted by generations of documentary evidence of the Bach family, by the plain fact that their music is completely different, by documented birth, marriage and birth certificates and by common sense. Apart from that your theory (so-called) is great !!!!:toetap05:

The British rule of France was centuries old in the 18th century. This is a FACT of history. And who ruled France in the 1720's ? It was only a caretaker post filled during that particular time by a Roman Cardinal. Why not accept the facts as they really are ?

The FACT is the Treaty of Paris (capital city of France) was signed there in 1783 with George 3rd of Britain being (as those before him) 'King of France' - as was George 2nd of Britain before him, and as was also George 1st before him. Get the picture yet ? These ARE documentary/historical facts. They were also all 'Arch Treasurers of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE'. This too is documentary, plain fact. Why not check them out for yourself ? If they are not documentary plain facts give us one single document from Rome over that half century which says the opposite is true. Just one. I guarantee you will never find one because I am stating plain, repeated, documentary fact.

Thus, the Treaty of Paris (1783) was signed by the King of Britain who was also King of France, and was also Arch Treasurer of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE ! This may startle you. But if you want a dozen more documentary proofs of these documentary facts just ask me. We await a single documentary evidence from the Holy Roman Empire or from the papal records which shows this is untrue ? Or from Rome. Shall we wait long ?

We shall, Yanni, stop going round in circles, don't you think ?

See Coat of Arms of King George 1st of United Kingdom. Clearly showing he WAS an Arch Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire

If he was NOT an Arch Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire show us differently.

But not only him. Also George 2nd and George 3rd ! Is this starting to become, well, obvious ???

George I's arms were: (and I quote directly from the sources) -

Quarterly, I Gules three lions passant guardant in pale Or (for England) impaling Or a lion rampant within a tressure flory-counter-flory Gules (for Scotland); II Azure three fleurs-de-lys Or (for France); III Azure a harp Or stringed Argent (for Ireland); IV tierced per pale and per chevron (for Hanover), I Gules two lions passant guardant Or (for Brunswick), II Or a semy of hearts Gules a lion rampant Azure (for Lüneburg), III Gules a horse courant Argent (for the medieval Duchy of Saxony, which was divided into the three parts of Eastphalia, Angria and Westphalia),[87] overall an escutcheon Gules charged with the crown of Charlemagne Or (for the dignity of Archtreasurer of the Holy Roman Empire).

But don't believe it. Check the thing out for yourself. Here is an image of these arms of King George 1st -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...1714-1801).svg

Would you like the same thing for King George 2nd ? How about those of King George 3rd (who signed the Treaty of Versailles in 1783) ?? And what did Rome think about this ? Can you find a single evidence that George was not as he claimed to be ? Anywhere ??

///

I have already answerd, Robert: A claim is a claim is a claim etc

The Act of Union 1707 declared the joining of the Kingdom of England with the Kingdom of Scotland to a new Kingdom of Great Britain. The Kingdom had four Monarchs until 1801. They also styled themselves Queen/King of France. However none of them actually questioned the rights of Louis XIV and his successors Louis XV, Louis XVI, Louis XVII and Louis XVIII:

Arms of Queen Anne featuring the French fleur-de-lys.Anne of Great Britain (May 1, 1707 - August 1, 1714).
George I of Great Britain (August 1, 1714 - June 11, 1727).
George II of Great Britain (June 11, 1727 - October 25, 1760).
George III of Great Britain (October 25, 1760 - January 1, 1801).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English..._French_throne

And there were the Stuarts, "blessed" by Rome as rightfull owners of the title to the british throne all along.

Now, instead of name calling and constant- and bordering ridiculous -attempts to put this thread off track, please concentrate on basics:

What was the full name and title of "Keyserlingk" (originally "Kaiserling-Cesarion*") who, as per myth, persuaded JSBach (and not Brandenburg born Handel) to compose the Brandenburg Concertos, when and why did he do it, when did he die, what was his relation to Frederick of Prussia (see post 5 above you never answered as usually)?

Afterall music, JSBach's in particular, IS your subject, isn't it?

*Un jeune Courlandais, nommé Kaiserling, qui faisait aussi des vers français, tant bien que mal....

No, Yanni, a fact is a fact. And the fact is King George 1st, King George 2nd, and King George 3rd were Kings of France and Arch Treasurers of the Holy Roman Empire. They were known as such from day 1 when they came to power. They remained Kings of France, and of Ireland, and of Hanover throughout their entire lives. Because these facts are the true context of what was happening in Britain and in large parts of continental Europe you have to accept them, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary. The Holy Roman Empire had some opinion about these facts, didn't it ? It never, once, denied them as facts. Did it ? It is not a 'claim' as you suppose. It was an accepted fact by the Holy Roman Empire itself. Why is this fact so difficult for you to accept ?

You have told us that George 3rd was mad. You have told us this is the reason why he claimed to be the King of France and an Arch Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire. But now we see (and the evidence has already been presented) that this was also true of his predecessors. Why not accept this fact and add it to your education of those times ?

You say none of these kings challenged the claims of Louis XIV and his successors, Louis XV, Louis XVI, Louis XVII and Louis XVIII. Yes, indeed, and there is a simple reason for this fact. The reason is that these were token positions. The real King of France during that period was the King of the United Kingdom (unknown even to the British and to most Frenchmen). It is exactly why the Holy Roman Empire approved them being 'Arch Treasurers of the Holy Roman Empire'. Now, either they were arch treasurers of the Holy Roman Empire or these 'Protestant' kings were not. They definitely were.

The 'Stuarts' were NOT recognised as Kings of France by Rome. Nor were they recognised as 'Arch Treasurers of the Holy Roman Empire'. If you can show us otherwise, please do so. We are waiting to see the evidence. You don't have any because it does not exist and has never existed.

And when we consider the implications of this fact we begin to understand the power of the British Empire during the 18th century, with its Plenipotentiaries based widely across Germany during that time. In Bonn, and many other areas of Germany. The hypocrite British were effectively ruling over large parts of protestant Germany although, in fact, they were Roman Catholics (the facts hidden from general knowledge) as we see here in the Treaty of Versailles of 1783 made with the Americans. Prussia was also being financed/controlled through the British Empire.

Here are the British (closet Roman Catholic) representatives to Prussia at the time of J.S. Bach -

1703–1711: Thomas Wentworth, 3rd Baron Raby (Envoy Extraordinary until 1705, then Ambassador)
1704 and 1705: John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough visited Berlin
1708: Maj. Gen. Francis Palmes Envoy Extraordinary
1711: Charles Whitworth Special Mission
1712-1714: Brigadier William Briton
1715: Archibald Douglas, 2nd Earl of Forfar
1716: Alexander, Lord Polwarth, also to Denmark
1716–1717: Charles Whitworth
1719–1722: Charles Whitworth MINISTER PLENIPOTENTIARY
1720: The Earl Cadogan Special mission
1720: The Earl Stanhope Special mission
1722-1724: James Scott Minister
1724–1730: Charles Du Bourgay Envoy Extraordinary
1726: Richard Sutton
1730: Sir Charles Hotham Special Mission
1730-1741: Col. Guy Melchior Dickens Secretary until 1740, then Minister
1741: Thomas Robinson Special Mission
1741–1744: John Carmichael, 3rd Earl of Hyndford Envoy Extraordinary and PLENIPOTENTIARY
1744--1747: Frederick Lorentz - Secretary, in charge
1746: Hon. Thomas Villiers Minister PLENIPOTENTIARY
1747–1749: Henry Legge
1750–1751: Charles Hanbury Williams

Thus, the hypocrite British ambassadorial elites (posing as 'Protestants' in a protestant area of Europe and in a Britain which believed the monarchy were not Roman Catholic), were effectively controlling large areas of Germany and beyond. With full papal approval ! Financing those governments and providing PLENIPOTENTIARY rule over those same places. You do know what 'plenipotentiaries' do, don't you ? They have no need to consult anyone. They rule according to their own wills. They have 'full power' to do so. Loyal to their papal masters. Hence the 7 Years War, the recruitment of Hessian and other troops to fight in the war of independence in America - all funded by the British elites. On both sides.

And if you agree about this we can discuss the state of Poland and those areas where J.S. Bach lived and worked. It provides us with an accurate picture of those times. A situation Bach faced as repeated opposition throughout his entire musical career. We may even agree on the above ? I think it's an accurate picture of reality.

Cantata 129

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgXww...eature=related


Regards

Cheap trycks will get you nowhere, Robert, other than these nonsensical "conclusions" you are desperately trying to support...

After 1751 and until 1756-1760, Britain had no representatives in Prussia, thus confirming my reading of the period's history:

1751--1756: Apparently no representation[1]

1756–1771: Andrew Mitchell Minister 1756-1760; Minister Plenipotentiary 1760-1764; Envoy Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary 1766-1771[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...dom_to_Prussia

Have the descency to remove yourself from this thread.

Yes, and I happily rest my case on this thread with yet another fact. J.S. Bach died in 1750.

Not forgetting -

British Empire Envoys and Plenipotentiaries to Poland (equally important during Bach's lifetime) -

1709-1710: John Dalrymple, 2nd Earl of Stair
1724-1727: Edward Finch
1747-1755: Charles Hanbury Williams

And, in Prussia (as said) -

1719–1722: Charles Whitworth (Minister Plenipotentiary)

However - Concerto for 2 Violins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIOh5...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaUY8...eature=related

And here, from from 3' 41'', when the orchestra bursts in, you may agree that is rather special -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1vEA...eature=related

Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Cheap trycks will get you nowhere, Robert, other than these nonsensical "conclusions" you are desperately trying to support...

After 1751 and until 1756-1760, Britain had no representatives in Prussia, thus confirming my reading of the period's history:

1751--1756: Apparently no representation[1]

1756–1771: Andrew Mitchell Minister 1756-1760; Minister Plenipotentiary 1760-1764; Envoy Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary 1766-1771[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...dom_to_Prussia

Have the descency to remove yourself from this thread.

---

And where were the music archives of the Bonn Principality destined in 1797 ? The answer is - Prague. Records show they came to Prague in January and stayed there for some 4 ½ months. After this point they were removed (again briefly) to Vienna. After this point they were removed (again briefly) to Vienna. Four years later (and roughly coinciding with the beginning of that great flood of Andre ‘Mozart’ publications) Prague also sees the arrival in the city of one Abbe Georg Vogler, a man who ( as can be shown separately) was the senior administrator of music in the Holy Roman Empire, a fellow member of the Order of the Golden Spur with Mozart himself, and a man granted by the papacy just prior to the annullment of the Jesuit Order in 1773 the office of papal prenotary - a rank second only to that of a Cardinal. Vogler, the hidden agent of the creation of the Mozart myth. And Vogler (himself at the time grossly over-rated as an expert in organ repair and design, teacher of theory, and Kapellmeister extraordinaire) lived in Prague between 1801 and 1803, at the very time when Prague and a circle of musicians in Prague (these mostly attached to the Premonstratensians there) busied themselves with the task of manufacturing for eventual publication Mozart’s posthumous reputation as a composer. The ‘project’, of creating the vast reputations of both Joseph Haydn and Mozart was finally to be realised. In the case of Mozart, largely posthumously.

Mozart was alive at the time ofcourse.

Musicologists , theatrologists and historians will certainly be pleased to learn otherwise that "Prague" was headed by Carl Ludwig Cocceji-Koch till late 1807 at least!

In fact he received - and decorated- Napoleon after Tilsit in his Glogau residence 16th July 1807:

po podpisaniu pokoju w Tylży, w trakcie powrotu do Paryża, zatrzymał się w Głogowie Napoleon Bonaparte, cesarz Francuzów. Wjechał do twierdzy w samo południe. W otoczeniu generalicji i oficerów sztabowych dotarł do ustawionej przed mostem od strony Serbów, bramy triumfalnej. Z marszałkami Duroc i Murat odebrał mowy powitalne burmistrza i komendanta. Przygotowanych na srebrnej tacy pozłacanych kluczy do miasta nie przyjął. Wśród huku dział na wałach i bicia kościelnych dzwonów skierował się do zamku, gdzie przyszykowano cesarską kwaterę. Tu cesarz się posilił w otoczeniu najbliższych, potem załatwił bieżącą pocztę i wyszedł do antykamery gdzie czekali miejscowi notable. Wśród nich zwrócił monarszą uwagę przez zawieszony na fraku Order Orła Czerwonego, wiekowy prezydent regencji Carl Ludwig von Cocceji. Zesłany do Głogowa młody urzędnik królewski wraz ze swoją wybranką Barberiną Campanini pozostał w mieście do końca swoich dni. I choć związek dla którego musiał opuścić Berlin nie przetrwał długo to von Cocceji spędził nad Odrą ponad 50 lat.

...and, identitywise, "abbe Vogler" has already been covered !

Cheers.

Yanni,

You have the most amazing ability not to see the wood for the trees. Whether Cocchi's were involved in the manufacture of Mozart's giant (even iconic) status is not disputed. It never has been. As repeatedly said. By me. And your posts only confirm it. They (Cocchis) were involved even during the childhood visit to London. And this too is plain fact. So were many others involved about whom you know far less.

So a reader of this thread will see, very clearly, during Mozart's lifetime and for years afterwards there WAS a network involved in making 'his' musical career. Which, as far as I am concerned, is now a plain, indisputable fact. Though your posts are nothing but confirmation of it in their own small way. Since you are concerned only with 'proving' to your own satisfaction (at least) that Cocchi wrote the music of Bach (amongst other things) and also that Handel was Bach, and that virtually anything was Cocchi. No, the Cocchi clan were simply part of a feudal network who worked to produce control. Control of what, exactly ? The control of music history as we know it. And they are a part of it. As we seem to agree. In fact the Cocchis were part of the same fraternal control which was emerging in the early music industry. It's no longer a matter of argument.

As for Abbe Vogler, he remained a major manager of 'Mozart's' music until the end of his life. But that is far beyond this thread.

p.s. Mozart died in 1791 and the events above (as anyone can see) are occurring years afterwards.

You would do well to tell us exactly what Cocchi did, musically, with some evidence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

And where were the music archives of the Bonn Principality destined in 1797 ? The answer is - Prague. Records show they came to Prague in January and stayed there for some 4 ½ months. After this point they were removed (again briefly) to Vienna. After this point they were removed (again briefly) to Vienna. Four years later (and roughly coinciding with the beginning of that great flood of Andre ‘Mozart’ publications) Prague also sees the arrival in the city of one Abbe Georg Vogler, a man who ( as can be shown separately) was the senior administrator of music in the Holy Roman Empire, a fellow member of the Order of the Golden Spur with Mozart himself, and a man granted by the papacy just prior to the annullment of the Jesuit Order in 1773 the office of papal prenotary - a rank second only to that of a Cardinal. Vogler, the hidden agent of the creation of the Mozart myth. And Vogler (himself at the time grossly over-rated as an expert in organ repair and design, teacher of theory, and Kapellmeister extraordinaire) lived in Prague between 1801 and 1803, at the very time when Prague and a circle of musicians in Prague (these mostly attached to the Premonstratensians there) busied themselves with the task of manufacturing for eventual publication Mozart’s posthumous reputation as a composer. The ‘project’, of creating the vast reputations of both Joseph Haydn and Mozart was finally to be realised. In the case of Mozart, largely posthumously.

Mozart was alive at the time ofcourse.

Musicologists , theatrologists and historians will certainly be pleased to learn otherwise that "Prague" was headed by Carl Ludwig Cocceji-Koch till late 1807 at least!

In fact he received - and decorated- Napoleon after Tilsit in his Glogau residence 16th July 1807:

po podpisaniu pokoju w Tylży, w trakcie powrotu do Paryża, zatrzymał się w Głogowie Napoleon Bonaparte, cesarz Francuzów. Wjechał do twierdzy w samo południe. W otoczeniu generalicji i oficerów sztabowych dotarł do ustawionej przed mostem od strony Serbów, bramy triumfalnej. Z marszałkami Duroc i Murat odebrał mowy powitalne burmistrza i komendanta. Przygotowanych na srebrnej tacy pozłacanych kluczy do miasta nie przyjął. Wśród huku dział na wałach i bicia kościelnych dzwonów skierował się do zamku, gdzie przyszykowano cesarską kwaterę. Tu cesarz się posilił w otoczeniu najbliższych, potem załatwił bieżącą pocztę i wyszedł do antykamery gdzie czekali miejscowi notable. Wśród nich zwrócił monarszą uwagę przez zawieszony na fraku Order Orła Czerwonego, wiekowy prezydent regencji Carl Ludwig von Cocceji. Zesłany do Głogowa młody urzędnik królewski wraz ze swoją wybranką Barberiną Campanini pozostał w mieście do końca swoich dni. I choć związek dla którego musiał opuścić Berlin nie przetrwał długo to von Cocceji spędził nad Odrą ponad 50 lat.

...and, identitywise, "abbe Vogler" has already been covered !

Cheers.

---

Your "reluctance" to examine music (mainly church and theater-opera) as just one of the carnivore trees of the elite's "jungle" (to gain and maintain control of the masses) is what prevents you from seeing things clearly, distorting their significance and your priorities.

Evidently "Cocchis", already active in England early 1700's, church included, were strongly influencing the British Monarchy as well (they already controlled the Bourbon world, France, Prussia, Saxony, Rome etc) eversince the Regent (later George III) bowed to Haydn, 1791, the very same Haydn who was visited by Emma, Nelson and Lord Keith(an old aquaintance of Cocceji) late 1800 in Prague, CLCocceji's "Prague".

Napoleon did not even bother to discuss Tilsit treaty himself with the Prussians and Russians*, he let others do it and selected instead to visit and councel Bohemia's president, CLCocceji, in his Glogau residence 16th July 1807while the treaty was still not ratified(Ratification on the 19th July see http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treaty...t,_9_July_1807).

This highly important info is only to be found in polish on the web, let alone its non existent interpretation from history's viwpoint.

Inbetween (1791-1807) "Bonn's music archive" (Beethoven-Belderbusch-Waldstein-Koch's-Bach/Handel's-Casanova's-Haydn's etc archive) was moved about, as you say, and I provided you with the explanation which is however, for me, of minor interest.

Early 1801 Tszar Paul, with his "Roman" upbringing and diplomatic contacts, was murdered, you see....

PS Vogler and Mozart (alive 1807) have already been covered in previous.

*A practically unknown "prussian" envoy-plenipotentiary representing Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustu...Count_of_Goltz.

After Tilsit Goltz became Prussias first minister of foreign affairs. Try finding who or where was Russia's minister of foreign affairs then (Tilsit)!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

You have the most amazing ability not to see the wood for the trees. Whether Cocchi's were involved in the manufacture of Mozart's giant (even iconic) status is not disputed. It never has been. As repeatedly said. By me. And your posts only confirm it. They (Cocchis) were involved even during the childhood visit to London. And this too is plain fact. So were many others involved about whom you know far less.

So a reader of this thread will see, very clearly, during Mozart's lifetime and for years afterwards there WAS a network involved in making 'his' musical career. Which, as far as I am concerned, is now a plain, indisputable fact. Though your posts are nothing but confirmation of it in their own small way. Since you are concerned only with 'proving' to your own satisfaction (at least) that Cocchi wrote the music of Bach (amongst other things) and also that Handel was Bach, and that virtually anything was Cocchi. No, the Cocchi clan were simply part of a feudal network who worked to produce control. Control of what, exactly ? The control of music history as we know it. And they are a part of it. As we seem to agree. In fact the Cocchis were part of the same fraternal control which was emerging in the early music industry. It's no longer a matter of argument.

As for Abbe Vogler, he remained a major manager of 'Mozart's' music until the end of his life. But that is far beyond this thread.

p.s. Mozart died in 1791 and the events above (as anyone can see) are occurring years afterwards.

You would do well to tell us exactly what Cocchi did, musically, with some evidence.

---

Yanni,

My (alleged) 'reluctance to examine music, mainly church and theatre/opera' is an amazing answer to the request (given in my most recent post) to provide us with evidence of Cocchi's musical activities during these years. You are so reluctant to tell us let me repeat my exact request -

What Cocchi (one or several of that name) did, musically, (with some evidence) during these years. ?

The reluctance to tell us is entirely yours. Will you do so ?

As for the only music related part of your last post, you seem to have the dates wrong. You wrote -

In between (1791-1807) "Bonn's music archive" (Beethoven-Belderbusch-Waldstein-Koch's-Bach/Handel's-Casanova's-Haydn's etc archive) was moved about, as you say, and I provided you with the explanation which is however, for me, of minor interest.

Well, no. In fact (since facts are the important things) the Bonn music archive was in Bonn until 1794 and went nowhere. It was moved at the time when Bonn Hofkapelle was closed - at the time of the Napoleonic invasion and occupation of the Rhine of that year. Then that music archive was transported to the castle of Bad Mergentheim where it stayed for some time (the residence of the Elector of Cologne, Max Franz). It remained there before going to various places including a stay in Prague, then in Vienna etc. Finally arriving (most of it) years later at Modena in Italy. Which, as you say, is a subject of minor (if any) interest to you.

Regards

In your quoted post on "Bonn's archive" 1797 onwards movements and whereabouts you were propably referring to Church music whereas I qualified "my" archive as Beethoven-Belderbusch-Waldstein-Koch's-Bach/Handel's-Casanova's-Haydn's etc ie a much bigger archive including theater music as well (starting with Caccini's Orpheo).

It had to be kept in relative safe storage, ie Prague eversince late 1795 (Oct 24, Russia, Austria and Prussia convention in Petersburg finalizes the 3rd division of the Polish-Lithuanian Republic).

As already written the Cocchis were "unwanted" in the Holy Roman Empire eversince 1787 ( Palazzo Cocchi, Terrarossa: con la morte senza eredi di Manfredi, il feudo tornς alla corona granducale. ), increasingly so after 1791 (Van Swieten falls out of favour) and more so after 1807, Tilsit (their tombs in Florence-basilica of Santa Crocce-confiscated by la d’Albany fece rimuovere le antiche tombe dei Cocchi e dei Nardini con l’intervento della nuova granduchessa Elisa Baciocchi. I lavori per l’installazione iniziarono nel 1809).

What did Cocchi do musically in the period?

Since you insist on ignoring or forgetting or whatever my revelations on his aliases including Bagge, Hennin, Haydn, Van Swieten, CLCocceji, Belderbusch senior, Waldstein , Koch etc (all relevant to Bonn, Prague and Vienna for the specific period) I suggest you follow my repeated advice to address it to your italian friends, Mme Trombetta in particular, for more details on his biography.

The fact that years later- parts of- the Bonn archive landed in Modena, Italy is propably to be attributed to Michel Hennin, serving under Eugene de Beauharnais, Napoleon's Italy at the time (1811-1814).

My regards.

Yanni,

The music I am refering to were symphonies, masses and orchestral music (but not chamber music). This had been last fully inventoried in 1784 at Bonn. After which time and until 1794 it was kept up to date by a book updated by the Kapellmeister Luchesi (today held at the Estense Library of Modena in Italy - reference C.53.01). In that year of 1794 this great mass of music was removed from Bonn so that it did not fall into the hands of the Napoleonic army. By the time it finally arrived in Modena (years later) no less than 9 symphonies were discovered to have had most of their paper covers torn off with the names of 'Mozart' written on each of their title pages and the same of various works now said to be by 'Haydn'. As the music library at Modena clearly shows.

Below the 'Prague' Symphony at Estense Library now attributed to 'W.A. Mozart'

2 Samuel 6.14

''And David danced before the LORD''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-y5leAJm6I

Dont't know about David but the fact is Beethoven visited his Koch/Cocceji's Prague twice during that period, 1796 and 1798.

...and Luchesi was Cocchi/Cocceji/Koch's pupil.

Allelujah (from grk αλληλουχία).

Yes indeed. Since the aristocratic patrons of Beethoven had been the same aristocratic patrons of Mozart. Visitors to Prague in those years included Abbe Vogler, Constanze Mozart, the biographer F.X. Niemetscheck etc etc. Plus Lichnowsky, Waldstein etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Dont't know about David but the fact is Beethoven visited his Koch/Cocceji's Prague twice during that period, 1796 and 1798.

Allelujah (from grk αλληλουχία).

---

Gentlemen, it's nice to have you bach !
I was feeling a bit homesick.



Gilliatt

Here is a little something to cure your homesickness, Gilliat:

The automatic translation of the polish text above via google....

After signing (subscribing) chamber (peace) in (to) Tylży, in the course of return to paris, it has stopped in (to) Głogowie Napoleon Bonaparte, emperor of frenchman happened . It has moved in fortress to just afternoon (south). In the midst generalicji and it has reached officers before bridge from part of serb put sztabowych, triumphal gates. With speakers Duroc and it has gotten back speech of welcome of mayors Murat and commander. It has not accepted gilded keys to cities prepare for silver tray < such >. It happened among rumble on axes and beating of (scrambling of) church bells were directed for lock (castle), where imperial headquarters przyszykowano. Emperor has been nourished in the midst of closest here, then, < sweat > it has handled (has settled) current mail and it has left (has gone out) for anticamera where they waited local < local > notable. Order of red eagle has returned monarch note among they by hinged (suspended) on tail coat, aged president of regency has returned monarch note by hinged (suspended) on tail coat order of red eagle they Carl Ludwig von Cocceji.Wśród, aged president of regency Carl Ludwig von Cocceji. Has remained for along with in city days young officer royal to the end Zesłany Głogowa wybranką Barberiną Campanini. Though it must leave relationship (association) for which (who) over oder over 50 lat (summer; year) berlin not survive long spend von Cocceji.

...in urgent need of improvement!

Competent translators wellcome!

An appropriate piece by Beethoven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn9U2...eature=related

(True musicologists will have no more difficulty identifying his Leonore-the same as EAPoe's).

Even if Glogau was supposed to be delivered to Prussia following Tilsit it never really was:

According to a secret .... Treaty between France and Prussia. September 8, 1808.De Clercq, Traites, II, 270-272.

His Majesty the Emperor of the French, King of Italy, Protector of the Confederation of the Rhine and His Majesty the King of Prussia, wishing to remove the difficulties which have occurred in the execution of the treaty of Tilsit, . . .

The places of Glogau, Stettin and Custrin shall remain in the power of the French army until the entire discharge of the h(b?)ills of exchange and the land notes given in payment of the contribution mentioned in the first article. . . .

His Majesty the Emperor and King guarantees to His Majesty the King of Prussia the integrity of his territory, on condition that His Majesty the King of Prussia remains the faithful ally of France.

His Majesty the King of Prussia recognizes as King of Spain and of the Indies His Majesty Joseph-Napoleon, and as King of the Two Sicilies His Majesty Joachim-Napoleon.

Hi Gilliat,

1068 musical greetings !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9abXo...eature=related

Robert

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

Gentlemen, it's nice to have you bach !
I was feeling a bit homesick.



Gilliatt

---

With Baron Bagge-Bach's ("Starot" of Courland!!) consent, the separation of Handel/Bach (publishing of "their individual" works) began 1817-18 with Beethoven* actively involved, while Mozart (as Nissen) with Constance were still having trouble "creatively" editing the prodigy's correspondence accordingly and while Merlin publications in Paris were "editing" PM Hennin's correspondence to "fit" etc etc etc.

hakuna matata!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLP5xRCLBXs

*Coincidentally born in the same house in Bonn (Bonngasse 515) with Johann Peter Salomon, Joseph Haydn's alleged agent in London (91-92).

Yes, Yanni, I think you have a fair idea of what happened in the case of Mozart and Beethoven (plus Haydn). Pity about Bach though you may, eventually, agree him to have been the exception to the rule. Buried during his own life and for more than half a century more after his death under the icons of the emerging music industry. Simply ignored by Vienna 'city of music' until, until, until finally he could be ignored no more.

J.S. Bach
Prelude & Fugue No. 18 in G-Sharp Minor
BWV 887
Angela Hewitt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtD8BW5P1ts

Regards

Bach was not "buried during his life time", as you write Robert. He was enjoying himself in London as Handel (with two links on record to Dr Antonio Cocchi-Koch).

Moreover he was christened by a Koch, cooperated copying music with another "cantor" Johann Sebastian Koch, Giovannini-Saint Germain("Koch") left his mark on his wife's music buechlein and, finally, biography wise was first "established" in print, 1802*, via the testimony of Wieland(Rousseau-"Koch") , Wilhelm Friedman and Johann Christian Bach(another "Koch", possibly the same as the previous AND the next) to Forkel/H.C.Koch (Rousseau/abbe Vogler/Cocceji/Haydn/Koch**).

To say nothing (more) on Handel/Bach' s simultaneous cataract operation or the fact that "their" presences and careers were checked thru in my timeline.

No reason to stop enjoying "his" music though!

Regards.

PS The prize set in "The puzzle of Beethoven Koch's " is hereby withdrawn, as no "Koch" genealogist or musico(i)logist has exhibited the slightes interest to claim it by contradicting my findings!

:angel:


* He (his music) existed until then only thanks to "a" largely still unknown "Marpurg" (=Rousseau, see http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/marpurg.html) .

**Another fascinating element in the opera is Haydn's choice of keys. In 1768 Jean-Jacques Rousseau had developed a table with the characteristics of different keys. His thesis was that F and the flat major keys express gravity or majesty and the sharp major keys brilliance or joy. Abt Vogler and H.C. Koch argued that keys which used many open strings on the violin had a much brighter, sharper sound whereas keys using closed strings had a darker sound. Haydn's choice of E flat major for Orpheo's final aria is daring and imaginative. Rather than using a minor key, Haydn has combined this dark sound of E flat major with unforgettable orchestration, such as the bassoon which almost wails in accompaniment to Orpheo's grief.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yes, Yanni, I think you have a fair idea of what happened in the case of Mozart and Beethoven (plus Haydn). Pity about Bach though you may, eventually, agree him to have been the exception to the rule. Buried during his own life and for more than half a century more after his death under the icons of the emerging music industry. Simply ignored by Vienna 'city of music' until, until, until finally he could be ignored no more.

J.S. Bach
Prelude & Fugue No. 18 in G-Sharp Minor
BWV 887
Angela Hewitt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtD8BW5P1ts

Regards

---

Yanni,

God gave you two ears. Please use them. You will discover G.F. Handel and J.S. Bach were two different people. And these ears of yours, in the case of Bach, are both invited. In fact, it can't start without them !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyev_...eature=related

Regards

Using what's between one's ears is the only way to your puzzling-syntax wise-"it", Robert.

Same for Marpurg/Koch's* "Bach"!


*The basic similarity between Koch and Marpurg is their belief that dissonant chords are generated by the addition of intervals below the fundamental seventh chord ... .14

We should always listen with our heart Yanni. In some cases our ears help.

:bigear:

When politics, the banking system, organised religion, (the entire world fails), there's always music. Speaking of which -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF-p_...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Using what's between one's ears is the only way to your puzzling-syntax wise-"it", Robert.

Same for Marpurg/Koch's "Bach"!

---

Not the "entire world" Robert, just the part that follows the wrong "music"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmLx...eature=related

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ambrose Bierce defined politics as a "strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."

Yes indeed Yanni !!

BWV 1050/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zLqa...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Not the "entire world" Robert, just the part that follows the wrong "music"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmLx...eature=related

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ambrose Bierce defined politics as a "strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."

---

ie "Correctly following the right path brings fullfillment" quoting Christoph Martin Wieland, Prussia's first translator of Shakespeare, considered the founder of German opera today, who ended his life, fullfilled, in the serenity of his Oßmannstedter Gutshof "Osmantium" 1813....allegedly*!)

Anyway............................................ ........................................

You'll agree no doubt that instead of the Brandenburg concerto, Brockes-Marcus passion by Handel/Bach is better suited to end the subject, Robert!

Composed by Georg Frideric Handel - London, c1715-1716 ?
1st performance: Hamburg ?, date unknown (possibly March 23, 1719 at Hamburg Cathedral)
Performances by J.S. Bach:
1st performance: Good Friday April 8, 1746 - Leipzig (prepared for performance by J.S. Bach)
2nd performance: Good Friday August 1748 - October 1749 - Leipzig
Pasticcio Passion, based on Markus-Passion by Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns [previously attributed to Reinhard Keiser] with insertion of 7 arias from Brockes Passion by G.F. Händel - Good Friday April 31, 1747 or April 12, 1748 - Thomaskirche, Leipzig .

See also:http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Bra...h-Nicolaus.htm

I very much doubt however that Bach himself conducted the 1748-49 Church choirs. His son Johann Christian "Bach" (aka Gluck/Hasse/Koch etc) was present and acted on his behalf (signatures on what survived from the ledger of receipts of The Nathan Bequest/Thomaskirche/Leipzig ).

Regards!

PS Should you decide to question oncemore Handel/Bach's eventual use of a helicopter in his travels to and from, don't forget to take into account the calender differences (lasting to 1750).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5PBYVAB23o

*Wieland only lived there 1797-1803 acc to german sources (who do not reveal what he did next however).

Thanks Yanni,

I am glad we can agree to disagree. So, when Bach tried (twice) to see Handel (both times unsuccessfully) he was actually trying to see himself ?

That deserves a reward for originality and is as deep a lesson as we will ever get on this thread, for sure ! And what does Bach think about that ?

Best wishes

Johann Sebastian Bach
Brandenburg Concertos
Musica Florea
Artistic director Marek Štryncl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0VVL...eature=related

Your educated explanation please, no more, no less:

Composed by Georg Frideric Handel - London, c1715-1716 ?
1st performance: Hamburg ?, date unknown (possibly March 23, 1719 at Hamburg Cathedral)
Performances by J.S. Bach:
1st performance: Good Friday April 8, 1746 - Leipzig (prepared for performance by J.S. Bach)
2nd performance: Good Friday August 1748 - October 1749 - Leipzig
Pasticcio Passion, based on Markus-Passion by Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns [previously attributed to Reinhard Keiser] with insertion of 7 arias from Brockes Passion by G.F. Händel - Good Friday April 31, 1747 or April 12, 1748 - Thomaskirche, Leipzig .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Thanks Yanni,

I am glad we can agree to disagree. So, when Bach tried (twice) to see Handel (both times unsuccessfully) he was actually trying to see himself ?

That deserves a reward for originality and is as deep a lesson as we will ever get on this thread, for sure ! And what does Bach think about that ?

Best wishes

Johann Sebastian Bach
Brandenburg Concertos
Musica Florea
Artistic director Marek Štryncl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0VVL...eature=related

---

Yanni, I confess I have run out of education on this subject. Does the performance of a Passion at Leipzig, which was cobbled together from arias attributed to Handel and actually by Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns [previously wrongly attributed to Reinhard Keiser] at the Thomaskirche, some time between 1747 and 1748) prove Handel and Bach were the same man ?

Maybe Vivaldi and Bach were the same man ? Or Handel and Vivaldi ? Since there is just as much evidence to support those ideas as yours.

Are you now questioning JSBach's continuous Leipzig Thomaskirche Kantor presence, the uniqueness and integrity of your "idol" maybe, or perhaps Handel's well known composition of Brockes oratorio ?

The fact is Bach systematically directed Handel's "Brocke's passion" from 1746 to 1749*,the 1748 pasticcio included, and it's up to you, the musicologist, to explain why Wolf (Footnote 42 of his “Bach”) believes that after 31 March 1749 oratoria that were not deemed appropriate for Leipzig’s main churches were performed in the Grand Concerts Hall such as Handel’s Brocke’s passion and Kaiser-Handel Markus pasticcio!

You, who were infact asking yourself not long ago in this thread how Heinrich von Brühl could fortell , on 2 June 1749, the eventual ... decease of Mr. Bach requesting in parallel that his music director, Gottlob Harrer, fill the post of Thomascantor and Director musices.

Or were you perhaps asking me?

*a highly critical period historicaly that defined "Bach's" early "death".

Firstly, I don't have an idol. An idol stands between me and accepting reality. And I'm very open to knowing what reality is. It's not idolatry. It's just that your ideas of Handel/Bach lack any real evidence.

I am not 'questioning' J.S. Bach's continuous Leipzig Kantor presence when I have never taught it in the first place !!!!

The 'Art of Fugue' for Prussia was written in these years after 1747 about (1748-50) and so were various edits of his earlier music including the chorals. So why am I questioning 'Bach's continuous Leipzig Kantor presence' ??? Who is questioning ? Everyone knows Bach travelled during those years. So what is your point ? He appears to have been unwell during this time - the last 2 years. So says Forkel and various sources. This fact has long been recognised.

The musical notes (Art of Fugue) are indisputably in Bach's own hand, written in a time before his deteriorating vision led to erratic handwriting, probably during that time 1748–1749.

The end of Bach's career was predicted for two reasons. He started to be unwell from around 1748 onwards. And secondly, because his enemies couldn't wait for him to be succeeded by another Kapellmeister. So says the evidence.

I was the one who told you Gottlob Harrer was already interviewed as his successor. And that too is a fact.

So, what exactly am I denying ? Nothing. I am denying only your idea that Handel and Bach were one and the same man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Are you now questioning JSBach's continuous Leipzig Thomaskirche Kantor presence, the uniqueness and integrity of your "idol" maybe, or perhaps Handel's well known composition of Brockes oratorio ?

The fact is Bach systematically directed Handel's "Brocke's passion" from 1746 to 1749*,the 1748 pasticcio included, and it's up to you, the musicologist, to explain why Wolf (Footnote 42 of his “Bach”) believes that after 31 March 1749 oratoria that were not deemed appropriate for Leipzig’s main churches were performed in the Grand Concerts Hall such as Handel’s Brocke’s passion and Kaiser-Handel Markus pasticcio!

You, who were infact asking yourself not long ago in this thread how Heinrich von Brühl could fortell , on 2 June 1749, the eventual ... decease of Mr. Bach requesting in parallel that his music director, Gottlob Harrer, fill the post of Thomascantor and Director musices.

Or were you perhaps asking me?

*a highly critical period historicaly that defined "Bach's" early "death".

---

You have convinced me Robert! Wurst making IS a science!

And you have convinced me of the same Yanni !!!

Antonio Vivaldi/arranged by J.S. Bach
Concerto
BWV 1065/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apbf5...eature=related

And another wuerstlein for you:

Bach visited Berlin in 1719 to pay 130 Thalers for a harpsichord purchased by Leopold, Prince of Anhalt-Köthen. At some time during the visit, the composer met with Christian Ludwig and impressed him. In hopes of gaining patronage from the margrave, Bach presented him with a set of concertos on March 24, 1721. Frederick William I preferred the music of George Frideric Handel, however, and Christian Ludwig lacked enough musicians to perform Bach's concertos. Hence the margrave was obliged to decline Bach's offer[4] and the concertos were never performed in Berlin during the composer's lifetime. Nevertheless, the compositions became known as the Brandenburg Concertos after they were found in Brandenburg's archives in the 19th century.[5]

Souvlaki is my speciality!

However, Handel was in London at the time(21st of March 1721) of Bach's presentation of his concerti to the Margrave, thus, accident-prone-helicopter excluded, it appears that your position they were two different persons was correct all along !

"Dovrò dunque morire?"
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=wnqGtt...eature=related

But, hold on, he could have posted his concerti, could he not?

I am at a loss you see: The verb used, "presented", implies a physical presence somehow and an honest source would have used "mailed" or "send by courrier" if such was the case, isn't it so?

What do your trustworthy sources say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-pZgI3FeJ0

Bach did in fact "send" his concerti to the Margrave. :"Schickt" is the verb used by the goodsite....

http://www.preussen-chronik.de/episo...02480.html,the

....(#4 source of post 127 above-quote) ie relative wiki article on the Brandenburg concertos is misleading the reader into believing that he was physically present.

He was not! Infact he was taking part in a music contest in the Royal Academy of London "to settle the incipient rivalry between its three house composers", ie his job was in question at the time:

Quoting from http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm.

1721 -- A contest! (36)
23 March : Completes composition of Act 3 of Muzio Scevola (HWV 13). (NOTE: The directors of the Royal Academy decided to settle the incipient rivalry between its three house composers by inviting each to submit one act of a composite opera. Act 1 was composed by Filippo Amadei; Act 2 was composed by Giovanni Bononcini; Act 3 was composed by GFH.) Handel is deemed the victor of the contest.
The contemporary British satirist John Byrom (1691-1763) writes with reference to the Handel-Bononcini rivalry (This feud put the Bononcinists against the Handelists. The Duke of Marlborough and most of the nobility favored Bononcini; but the Prince of Wales, with Alexander Pope and Dr. John Arbuthnot, supported Handel) :
Some say, compar'd to Buononcinny
That Mynheer Handel's but a Ninny.
Others aver, that he to Handel
Is scarcely fit to hold a Candle:
Strange that this difference there should be
Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee!

(NOTE: The last two lines have been attributed to Jonathan Swift and Alexander Pope.)

24 March : J.S. Bach dedicates concertos to the Margrave Christian Ludwig of Brandenburg.
2 April : Advertisements appear in both the Daily Courant and Daily Post:
At the King's Theatre in the Hay-Market, Saturday next, being the 11th Day of April, will be perform'd a new opera call'd MUTIUS SCAEVOLA. Tickets will be deliver'd on Friday, at Mr. White's Chocolate House in St. James Street.

11 April : The première of Muzio Scevola (HWV 13) is interrupted by the announcement of the birth of the Duke of Cumberland to the royal family.
15 April : Muzio Scevola (HWV 13) premires. [KT]
5 July : A new cantata, probably Crudel tiranno amor (HWV 97), is sung by Margherita Durastanti (soprano) at her benefit concert. [KT]
1 November : Opera season opens.
25 November : Radamisto (HWV 12b) is revived. [KT]
28 November : Completes composition of Floridante (HWV 14).
9 December : Floridante (HWV 14) premieres. [KT]
JS Bach marries 2nd wife, Anna Magdalena Wilcke.
Telemann invited by the city of Hamburg to become Kantor of the Johanneum and Director Musices (musical director) of the city's five main churches.
Domenico Scarlatti joins the court of the King of Portugal. [Lisbon]

"Dedicates" is still the wrong translation of "shickt" (aesthetically is a better choice however) the suspicion of "intent to mislead" strengthened by:
a)the insertion of verse between Handel's 23rd March contest and Bach's 24th March letter or dedication and
b) the "ommission" to date the pro Handel decision.

In conclusion:

Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee were one and the same person and Hesiod was right: "The Muses often lie".

If only they wouldn't do it so crudely and so systematically, I add.

END OF SUBJECT.

PS 1 Hope you are well and still reading this thread, Robert: Compared to Bach/Handel's "manufacture", Mozart comes out an angel afterall!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPgB6...eature=related

PS 2: Of note:
-Antonio Cocchi followed to London as his personal physician, 1722 et 1726, Lord Théophile Hastings.

-Samuel Cocceji became Prussia's Kammergerichtspräsident (president of the superior court of justice) in 1723.

This is one part of a late cantata by J.S. Bach commissioned, written and performed against huge opposition from even the University of Leipzig. Written by the composer of the 'Brandenburg Concertos'. His answer to those wished to ignore his music. You should hear all of it. And, to end, a movement from the concerto BWV 1064. It also ends my contribution here -

Cantata 198

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Vc4...eature=related

Concerto BWV 1064/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bem-a...eature=related

As for G.F. Handel, I suggest you read works such as the following -

S. Taylor: ''The Scale of the Indebtedness of G.F. Handel to Works by Other Composers'' (Cambridge University Press -1906)

'All things musical have redemption as its centre and that is their form. So that you reach out - although you see you have already been reached'.(J.S. Bach).

Regards to you Yanni

Bach's TRAUER ODE for the Funeral of Queen Christiane Eberhardine of Poland/Saxony. Performed at a special Memorial Service, the University Paulinerkirche, Leipzig, on October 17th, 1727 with Bach himself at the harpsichord
Libretto by Gottshed (a known opponent of operatic music in general, he made an exception for 198 however!!).

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert,

To enable readers fully appreciate the "theatrical-italian style" and history of "Bach's" cantata 198, you'll have first to discover and disclose the funeral music (and its composer) that accompanied King George I to his last home (Berggarten Mausoleum, Hannover, Saxony) June 1727!

George I's favorite, Handel (responsible or at least blamed for the scandalous quarell between Bordoni and Cuzzoni that interrupted Bononcini's Astianatte on June the 6th, 1727, ending the season) must have been in the company of the King, escaping to Hannover for the last time(suffered a stroke June 9th, died June 11th, was buried the 14th).

"Bach" next is on record 25 August 1727 at the inauguration of Leipzig town council (Ihr Tore zu Zion, BWV 193, hardly suitable for the occasion).

After Queen Christiane's Leipzig funeral October 17th, Handel/Bach returned to London in time for his Riccardo primo, re d’Inghilterra (Richard the First, King of England; HWV 23), premierered London on 11 November 1727.

In the meantime he was commissioned to write(!!) -(original source ple-e-ease!!)- four new anthems for the coronation of King George II, October the 4th, 1727: Another crossing is perhaps possible- July or September-yet uncomfortable-and his presence at the coronation is not on record..

Telemann's "influence" in all above is very likely. Telemann's control of "the industry" at the time is well known whereas his identity still remains a mystery!

The Royal Academy of Music was closed in 1728.

Regards!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i150-...eature=related

The Venetian/Papally controlled career of G.F. Handel

'Handel's' works supplied through more than 20 composers including wholesale theft of operas performed by Reinhard Keiser - Adonis and Janus, also the same Reinhard Keiser - La forza della virtu - again Reinhard Keiser - Claudius and Nebuchadnezer, Francesco Gasparini - et al - Ambleto & Giovanni Porta Numitore - Carl Heinrich Graun's - Passion, ‘Komt her und schaut’ & Antonio Lotti -, Mass 6, - by Alessandro Scarlatti - ‘Il Pompeo’, - Alessandro Scarlatti - ‘Dafni’ - by Giovanni Bononcini - ‘Il Xerxe’ - by Agostino Steffani - La lotte de Hercole con Acheloo - Miscellaneous MS Sources and the usual inventions of the fraternity elites who have manufactured musical 'history'. Plus at least 200 other works by other composers.

Add to this the following excerpt -

‘’G.F. Handel has ‘borrowed’ a dozen of these works and, I dare say, I shall catch him stealing from them also, as I already have formerly, both from Scarlatti and also from Vinci’

(Charles Jennens, Letter of 17th January 1743 to Edward Holdsworth, shortly after acquiring a substantial number of musical manuscripts from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Pietro Ottoboni).

This is the same Cardinal Ottoboni who (together with 4 other cardinals) patronised the career of Handel while he was in Rome and Venice. This before his first arrival in England. The facts of which were hidden from public knowledge during the start of the Hanoverian dynasty of George 1st onwards. In fact, Handel’s arrival in England began with performing numerous works which are today recognised NOT to be by G.F. Handel. The above librettist of ‘Saul’ and of ‘Messiah’ was not the first to notice this fake aspect of Handel’s career. Which continued at every stage of Handel's career. How unfortunate he did not meet J.S. Bach. But now I think we know why.

Regards

Cantata 198 and BWV 193 are, ofcourse, not the only works by Bach/Handel that clearly show his italian theater music (opera) early learning, influences and preferences, obvious in all his compositions (by others or his own) but they outrank the rest because, as funeral music, they were both much too "light", too "theatrical" if not bohemian for the occasion and the relative tastes of the average north european listener of his time (and they propably still are).

This inherent "problem", obvious in all his music, did not escape the attention of the Leipzig council in 1722 when a new cantor was needed to take the place of Kunau at Thomaskirche: Fears were expressed at the time that Bach's music would be too theatrical for their ideal cantor but employed him nevertheless:
Handel/Bach was "well connected" already. He accepted the post even if it was for him a step downwards in the social scale, and he had little respect for his employers who maintained the same opinion of him and his music to the end:
When the decision was taken to destroy "Bach" for "Handel" in 1750 Councillor Stieglitz expressed the opinion, ten days after Bach’s "death": The school needs a Kantor, not a Kapellmeister.*

BUT

The "within the box" myth of "Bach's" biography fails to explain to satisfaction his -ultimately italian- influences and wants readers to believe he, the idol of german "baroque-church" or "sacred" music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo1x-62WmrI spend the rest of his life in a second rate post, practically unknown for almost thirty years there (and the next fifty or so, the hot potato of his double life hard to touch) , depressed, while giving his famous alter ego, Handel, all sorts of names (his "celibacy" even interpreted as homosexuality-Orpheo) for his choice to "survive" in London for eight more years.

Well, evil clowns have controlled music all along and musicologists can be no exception!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert,

Your "music" is the exact opposite of Handel/Bach's but somehow I don't believe that playing the same monotone on your monochord- while evading each and every issue raised -will get you thru the gate to Zion**

Regards.

*Text in italic by Guido De Winne, 2004.

**Meaning Paradise at the time (to avoid any misunderstanding) whereas "Tore" (ie gate) has in the meantime been often interpreted as "tears".


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________________
On Tuesday night in Clackamas County fire fighters were called out after the Oregon City owners of the camel phoned to say that Moses had fallen into a sinkhole 6 to 8 feet (about 2 metres) deep, and was possibly injured.

Yanni,

The fact is that G.F. Handel's career was stage managed. As already indicated. It was stage managed before Handel even left Germany and at the time when he was recruited by the Italians and by the British. Before he ever arrived in Rome and Venice. And before he ever arrived in England. So say thousands of facts.

And you are telling us G.F. Handel wrote the 'Brandenburg Concertos' !

I think readers can decide this issue for themselves from the evidence. Only some of which I have presented. This must be very embarrasing for your theory. Shall I give you the full list ? You already have about 10% of the evidence. But enough to prove that your theory is wrong.

It seems most honest people want facts, not innuendos. I have provided some. They are documented facts and they are indisputable although little known. And now you have good reason to modify your views. None of which you have acknowledged.

Yanni, most composer heroes of the 18th century were manufactured. With few exceptions. Bach and Zelenka being exceptions.

Anyway, regards

Thanks for reminding me to add to my #130 post above (on the Brandenburg concertos), what Wolf writes on the "matter":

About the beginning of August 1721 he gave a performance of some unspecified kind for Count Heinrich XI Reuss of Schleiz; this may have been arranged by J.S. Koch, the Kantor there, who had held a post at Mühlhausen, though possibly not in Bach’s time there. On 15 June 1721 Bach was the 65th communicant at St Agnus; one ‘Mar. Magd. Wilken’ was the 14th. This may well have been Bach’s future wife – the mistake in the first name is an easy one – but Anna Magdalena makes no formal appearance until 25 September, when Bach and she were the first two among the five godparents of a child called Hahn. This baptism is recorded in three registers. In two of them Anna is described as ‘court singer’, in the third, simply as 'chamber Musician’ ('Musicantin'). In September Anna was again a godmother, to a child called Palmarius; again the registers differ in describing her occupation. Her name does not appear in court accounts until summer 1722, when she is referred to as the Kapellmeister’s wife; her salary (half Bach’s) is noted as paid for May and June 1722*

Would you care completing re timeline of post 130 and then interpret it for the benefit of the readers?

I don't really need to!

Regards.

*Kuhnau, Kantor of the Thomasschule, died 5 June 1722.

Thank you for completely ignoring my recent posts on the true career of G.F. Handel. A faked career, in fact. Quite typical of 18th century music. But ignoring posts is a tactic you often use when facts get in the way of your speculations. Nothing you have posted supports your theory and therefore we go round and round in circles.

I will post on Post 130 later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Thanks for reminding me to add to my #130 post above (on the Brandenburg concertos), what Wolf writes on the "matter":

About the beginning of August 1721 he gave a performance of some unspecified kind for Count Heinrich XI Reuss of Schleiz; this may have been arranged by J.S. Koch, the Kantor there, who had held a post at Mühlhausen, though possibly not in Bach’s time there. On 15 June 1721 Bach was the 65th communicant at St Agnus; one ‘Mar. Magd. Wilken’ was the 14th. This may well have been Bach’s future wife – the mistake in the first name is an easy one – but Anna Magdalena makes no formal appearance until 25 September, when Bach and she were the first two among the five godparents of a child called Hahn. This baptism is recorded in three registers. In two of them Anna is described as ‘court singer’, in the third, simply as 'chamber Musician’ ('Musicantin'). In September Anna was again a godmother, to a child called Palmarius; again the registers differ in describing her occupation. Her name does not appear in court accounts until summer 1722, when she is referred to as the Kapellmeister’s wife; her salary (half Bach’s) is noted as paid for May and June 1722*

Would you care completing re timeline of post 130 and then interpret it for the benefit of the readers?

I don't really need to!

Regards.

*Kuhnau, Kantor of the Thomasschule, died 5 June 1722.

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Yanni has asked me to comment on his Post 130 although it says nothing that is not already well known. But here goes -

1. Yes, Bach did send the 'Brandenburg' concertos by post. This is a fact already known by every person who has ever read anything of musical history. It is not a revelation. Is it ? It is a plain, indisputable and well known fact. You believe this. I believe this. And so does everyone else. Has anyone ever, even once, suggested differently ? No. What, exactly, is your point here ?

2. You then move on to an alleged musical 'contest' between Bononcini and Handel in London in 1721. (Which everyone who has read about Handel's career already knows also). It does not tell us Handel is J.S. Bach. But you have conveniently forgotten Bononcini was already supplying music in London to.... G.F. Handel ! This fact conveniently forms no part of your post !! The 'support' given to Handel on that occasion (by Romanist occultists such as the Prince of Wales, Alexander Pope, and Dr. John Arbuthnot) is completely ignored also !! Men who had been in contact with Rome and Venice from the earliest days of Handel's stay in Venice and Italy !!! And while Handel the 'protestant' was being treated like a celebrity by no less than 6 cardinals in Rome and Venice this too forms no part of your education. These 'supporters' of the stage managed career of G.F. Handel make your point laughable.

3. 24th March of the same year J.S. Bach dedicates the 'Brandenburg' Concertos to Margrave Christian Ludwig of Brandenburg. Yes Yanni, you have at least got that right. Well done !!

4. Your 'conclusion' is also laughable. You write -

Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee were one and the same person and Hesiod was right: "The Muses often lie".

So, this is Yanni's 'proof' GF Handel and J.S. Bach were one and the same person !!!!!!!!!! I wonder what readers will think of this as 'proof' of anything. It is a thinner argument than to believe we can make chicken soup from the shadow of a chicken !!

And he ends with this -

Antonio Cocchi followed to London as his personal physician, 1722 et 1726, Lord Théophile Hastings.

-Samuel Cocceji became Prussia's Kammergerichtspräsident (president of the superior court of justice) in 1723.

In reply -

I have repeatedly in earlier posts refered to the Cocchi clan - whose job was to stamp out any musical career which was not approved by Rome. I have also, in earlier posts refered to the fact of one Cocchi's employment by Lord Theophile Hastings. (Both of them were up to their eyeballs in occultism and Romanist controlled fraternities). None of which are relevant to this issue.

As for Samuel Cocceji becoming Prussia's Kammergerichtsprasident (President of the Superior Court of Justice) in 1723, this proves only the occultists controlling art and culture were quickly closing any possible recognition of Bach's career. By ignoring his achievements completely. In fact (although you do not mention it) the 'Brandenburg' concertos (like the Musical Offering) were completely ignored by its recipient. As usual. The latter piece being designed to defeat any ordinary composer. A pattern of behaviour which continued, even in England, and especially in western Europe, for many decades after Bach's death in 1750.

In the meantime the fraudulent celebrity Handel became a European musical phenonmenon. Despite the fact (already posted) that he, G.F. Handel, was being massively supplied by operatic and music from the start by over 20 'friendly' composers, all associated with the growing Romanist control of art and culture (in Rome, Venice, London and elsewhere) that had started in Bach's lifetime. A plain, documented, verifiable fact. As I have shown repeatedly. Including a letter of the time from Handel's own librettist in London. And numerous others. Speaking of the use of music recently sent by a Romanist cardinal. How embarrasing for you Yanni !

I must congratulate you for proving the opposite of what you suppose ! The animosity and resistance to every stage of Bach's career is, again, a documented, plain, indisputable fact of history. The 'city of music' finally realised this music decades after Handel, Bach, and all Handel's 'helpers' were long dead.

Such are the facts. And they will forever remain. They assert themselves. As truth always does -

J.S. Bach
Cantata 80
Und Wenn die Welt voll Teufel war
(On Chorale by Martin Luther)

Musical Art !! You will forgive me thinking this too was not written in Rome. Nor by G.F. Handel. Nor even the countless Cocchis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WcDj...eature=related

Regards