Heaven and Hell -Are they for real?

Underestimating my abilities again I see, like I said before...

No this is babel again.I mean subjects I Know more about myself - not subjects I know more about than you do. The only thing I can comment on is where you assert something which I think is incorrect - but I usually will only correct if it concerns Buddhism, which I practice.


Anyway, back to the issue.

My old Uncle may well be able to smell the roses, but he is much more concerned with his diabetes and the sores that won't heal on his legs. There are lots of examples of immediate suffering, but it goes much deeper than that. Everything is suffering - even our perception of happiness - according to the standard Buddhist view. This is not at all unconventional and was in fact the subject of The Buddha's first teaching to his fellow ascetics after his enlightenment.

I do think your assetion about what most people do or don't do is somewhat unfounded. How do you know?

people from the West often dont understand interpretations of many Eastern Beliefs Systems

This is true. Buddhism is the perfect example. I have not seen much understanding of Buddhism on this forum.

The rest of your post shows you have much to learn and dont really understand the most basic purpose for our Souls reincarnated. Its obviously not your time to grasp the depths of life's meaning yet. There is nothing wrong with this, we are all on a different rung on the treadmill of our own making and I do not profess to know everything either [indeed thats impossible]. If you read through previous comments of mine, I believe it might become clearer.

I do understand the Buddhist perspective on this, and souls don't figure. It is another exzample of people not understanding Buddhism. As for other systems, well I couldn't say.

As far as Buddha's last words "Be lamps unto yourselves"? are concerned I interpret them exactly as those 4 words were intended... I am not going to add words into his mouth as you have done. But hey, if you and Atheist are on the same page I certainly will not interfere.

But are you really sure about that Dizzy? He addressed those words to his heart disciples who were practising Buddhists. It means find The Path yourself - and he meant the path he had traversed before them. He did not mean go out and make it up as you see fit, otherwise the transmission from the Buddha would not be in the form that it is now - a valid transmission from the Buddha.

But again, I learn more from those born into Eastern cultures than I do from anyone in the West on mattes such as spiritual growth and understanding. I feel this is the wisest approach.

Me too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I think it would be best if there were really a hell, but no heaven - so then the reward for being good would be oblivion, and the avoidance of eternal damnation. It'd be interesting to see how many theists would sign up for that deal.

---

Interesting take, but probably unpopular. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NikolaiI

Interesting. I've never heard that or thought of it that way, but I am glad you shared it with me. Thank you. :smile5:

---

Thank you Nikolai, I came back to respond to your comment. We are not put on earth to FIX anyone, and we cannot take away their pain. Everyone has their own cross to bear, all we can do is be compassionate and supportive by listening to them... not telling them what to do.

And no-one can FIX our circumstances only we can do that. We are not responsible for them and they are not responsible for us. Karma is a bastard but it has to be paid, its good philosophy to remember that. Most of us do learn our lessons, if not... well, we'll have to die to find out. lol.

I thought readers might enjoy this to add a bit of fun to what seems a serious topic:

Heaven is Where:
The Police are British,
The Chefs are Italian,
The Mechanics are German,
The Lovers are French and
It's all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is Where:
The Police are German,
The Chefs are British,
The Mechanics are French,
The Lovers are Swiss and
It's all organized by the Italians.

http://serve.mysmiley.net/innocent/innocent0001.gif

Just got to love it...........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blazeofglory

In fact even in Christianity there is an idea of figurative heaven not material. Milton in Paradise Lost said Heaven or Hell is a state of mind only.

---

Hi Blaze - I think I missed responding to you. It is clear that some people experience mental hell - see locals with mental health concerns. We can see ths on earth.
What about heavenly states of mind though? Do we have those states on earth? We do experience bliss of various kinds, but is this heaven?

Heaven is the nearest thing to INFINITE LOVE.`

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NikolaiI

Heaven is the nearest thing to INFINITE LOVE.`

---

How does it work though? Is it with a spiritual body or a human body, or is it a kind of bliss state?

You can see my thoughts in two previous posts...

I already know you disagree with all my ideas Paul.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NikolaiI

You can see my thoughts in two previous posts...

I already know you disagree with all my ideas Paul.

---

OK - I looked back. I'd read them but it was a while ago.

I don't disagree with your ideas/ beliefs Nik. I might take issue with assertions about Buddhism that I don't think are right, but I don't intend to criticise your own beliefs. I was just asking, as I've been asking other posters.

No worries.

:biggrin5:

I cannot contain myself I have to share with you Paul. I hope this makes it clearer because this is where I feel our misunderstanding lies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

Buddhists are remarkably consistent in their views about the main teachings. The apparent differences are often cultural with different approaches, but the teachings are the same. Buddhists do not admit the prescence of a soul. We are empty of inherent existence - no soul. I think this shows a partial knowledge of Buddhism as it is a key aspect.

---

This comment of yours is simply not true, especially what you state in bold. I provide a link below to confirm my point. But even so, I dont believe Buddhism has all the answers anyway. Just as science makes new discoveries after some theories die, so I believe is the case with "belief systems", i.e. after we put our current life to death, so our Soul moves on to new discoveries. This means neither science nor religion have all the answers yet.

Please read this link which outlines the Souls Birth and Rebirth according to Buddhist philosophy.

Karma and Rebirth

I have included bits and pieces of its message in this post but please read the entire link, its only one page long. Of course there are other links within the site to Table of Contents but this link deals with:

Quote:

---

The wheel of life, or "samsara", is an ancient symbol that has the same meaning in Buddhism and Hinduism. It is symbolises the cycle of birth, life, and death. When one revolution of the wheel is completed, life begins again with rebirth.

Rebirth.

Buddhists hold that the retributive process of karma can span more than one lifetime. Rebirth has always been an important tenet in Buddhism; and it is often referred to as walking the wheel of life (samsara). It is the process of being born over and over again in different times and different situations, possibly for many thousand times.

As long as there is delusion, greed, and aversion, and as long as passions are not extinguished, we generate karma. Because we eventually accumulate unmaterialised karma, there is a next lifetime in which the accumulated karma will take form. Only when all accumulated karma is realised and the generation of new karma is calmed, one can enter the stream that leads to Nirvana. This process continues until Nirvana is reached, which signifies the cessation of rebirth and, hence, the end of suffering.

It is notable that this also entails the avoidance of "good karma". Once the stream that leads to Nirvana is entered, creating wholesome karma is not an object anymore. Although wholesome karma leads to entering the stream, it does not necessarily lead to Nirvana, only the extinguishment of all karma leads to Nirvana.

What is reborn if not the "self"?

If the idea of non-self sounds odd, then it must sound even more curious that non-self can be reborn. There is a seeming contradiction between the canon of rebirth and that of the non-self, which even many Buddhists find difficult to understand. The contradiction is, however, only on the surface and can be solved if one pictures the self as the result of karmic formation. This can be put into less abstract words:

If we imagine the world as an ocean, we are like the ripples on the ocean. Formations like ripples and waves occur, because of wind, tides, and other kinetic forces. In the Buddhist analogy, the universe is in motion due to karmic forces. A ripple, a wave, or a billow may seem as an individual entity for a moment, creating the illusion that it has a self, but it is gone in the next moment. The truth is that all individuals are one. A ripple is a temporary phenomenon; it is just water in motion. We know that kinetic energy causes wave forms on a body of water and it would be ridiculous to say that a single ripple or wave has a self.

Similarly, in case of beings, the process of coming into life and being conditioned in a particular way is caused by karmic forces. The up and down of the ocean's waves corresponds with the rotation of the wheel of life. The sea that surges, falls, and resurges, is the life that is born, dies, and is reborn again. It is therefore obvious that we should not focus on the temporary phenomenon of the wave, but on the force that causes, forms, and drives it. Nothing else is said, although in more practical terms, in the Eightfold Path.

---

There are many other links which provide similar information but I think this one rules your quote, which I placed at the beginning of this post, as null and void. Because you love Buddhism Paul, I am sure you will enjoy the rest of this website... its really very imformative, just your cuppa tea!. Have a wonderful day without suffering, just let it go, be it yours or contemplation of others.

Buddhists do not admit the prescence of a soul. We are empty of inherent existence - no soul.

Is what I said and what you quoted.

This is from the website that you linked.

The Buddhist concept is subtly different from the classical Indian understanding, because it denies the existence of a self or a soul.

and

The body is mortal and when it dies, all mental activities cease. That is why there is no soul. The idea of soul is simply an extension of the self; in fact it is an immortal version of the self that supposedly survives physical death. Buddhism denies the existence of such an entity. Instead, what we call self is just a stream of consciousness that draws identity from concepts and memories, all of which are impermanent.

I'm sorry Dizzy, but I don't see where it contradicts what I said on the website. Could you clarify?

It looks like the website is contradicting itself then unless its just their expression which we seem to be misinterpreting. You have to agree with this at least after reading what I have posted from the same site. As I said to you before, Buddhism doesnt work for me but let me try to understand the passages you have outlined.

Possibly what they mean by this is:

because it denies the existence of a self or a soul.

Well we all know the "self" in its present form does exist because we are evidence of it, so I have no clue why that statement was made except... possibly... they mean just that "in its present form", which is just as my personal spiritual awareness leads me to believe, that WE are NOT this present "mortal self or current soul" we are in fact an Old Soul or an Immortal Soul who returns in reincarnation as per the rest of this website states. What other reason can there be for it, because the website makes reference to Rebirth and Karma often in connection with reincarnation into new lives to cleanse bad karma? It could mean that they are classifying the mortal "self" and "soul" as the same thing.

The idea of soul is simply an extension of the self; in fact it is an immortal version of the self that supposedly survives physical death.

Taken from your post. Again it looks as if this website is coupling the "mortal self" and the "current soul" as one and the same thing. And then when I look at that bolded bit, it can just as well read that "the immortal self survives physical death" which is accurate as I believe the immortal Old Soul never dies, which fits with my personal spiritual understanding. Energy never dies it only changes form.

Its ambiguous, but please explain to me then... why in the areas I have quoted on this thread and in other areas on the site they consistently bring up: "It is the process of being born over and over again in different times and different situations, possibly for many thousand times." in different ways? Thats of more interest to me than this small piece of ambiguity that you have managed to dig up. It could even mean that the person writing for the website might not have mastered the English language sufficiently to understand that what they have written has come across as contradictory. In fact all the material I have ever read in regard to Buddhism refers to reincarnation to cleanse karma's.

Who knows, it looks again that there a divisions in Buddhism, but considering that a lot of their beliefs stem from Hinduism then that could just be their twist to show the difference between Buddhism and Hinduism. As I told you before, I dont follow one single belief system, I follow whatever I am comfortable with and in my minds-eye there is no purpose to life unless there is reincarnation to improve our disposition.

Hi Dizzy. I agree that the bit you refer to is not clear. Can I answer your question in another thread? I'll call it Self and rebirth. Another poster mentioned some ideas about Buddhism and I can respond to those too. Is this ok? I'm aware that weve strayed off topic.

Good idea Paul, then we can all learn what each others beliefs are and clear up the misconceptions that arise from the differences. Cos after all, we will probably find every poster has their own ideal of what spiritual growth and spiritual progress is.

When we die we all become potatoes. To prove this I give you the fact that when a human dies, somewhere a potato germinates. There is also the conciousness of the potato, which is remarkably similar to that of the human. They are known to suffer from many similar neurosis, such as bipolar disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder, though their physical capacity limits the display of these.
You may then ask 'what happens when a potato dies?'
The answer is simple. They can become such things as the majestic Ccptilst of PSR 1257+12 if their behavior as a potato was good or as a 'chicken' at a Kentucky Fried Chicken farm if their behavior was bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrRegular

When we die we all become potatoes. To prove this I give you the fact that when a human dies, somewhere a potato germinates. There is also the conciousness of the potato, which is remarkably similar to that of the human. They are known to suffer from many similar neurosis, such as bipolar disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder, though their physical capacity limits the display of these.
You may then ask 'what happens when a potato dies?'
The answer is simple. They can become such things as the majestic Ccptilst of PSR 1257+12 if their behavior as a potato was good or as a 'chicken' at a Kentucky Fried Chicken farm if their behavior was bad.

---

They have found the link after all - Mr and Mrs Potato Head.

Sorted.:conehead:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

OK - I looked back. I'd read them but it was a while ago.

I don't disagree with your ideas/ beliefs Nik. I might take issue with assertions about Buddhism that I don't think are right, but I don't intend to criticise your own beliefs. I was just asking, as I've been asking other posters.

No worries.

:biggrin5:

---

Paul,

I think Dizzy and I both have a certain understanding that we are trying to share with you.. which goes all the way back to Plotinus even! That everything has a source... etc. And you underestimate us! I don't mean to underestimate you, you have your own life and your thoughts which have an immeasurable value.

Let me try to say it one more way. Think about it this way. Just for a moment, humour me.


Your mind is light. Your eyes are light.

Your face is light, your teeth are light, your skin is light, and your body and consciousness and heart are light. Your thoughts are light.

As Lama Surya Das said, "The secret of Buddhism is that enlightenment can be experienced even within samsara; that even the shadows themselves are light."

Consider this... and consider - what is there? Is there any experience, any consciousness, awareness, dimension, which is to this (our normative) dimension as this awareness is to sleep? This is precisely what Buddhism teaches. And no - it isn't as emphasized in Theravada Buddhism as it is in Mahayana, nor is it in Mahayana as much as it is in Vajrayana. And yes, Vajrayana Buddhism is a secret teaching which it is necessary to have a teacher in a lineage to learn.

But I would use Kenneth Inada's words at the beginning of The Range of Buddhist Ontology

Quote:

---

The perception of the nature of reality in Buddhism is a consequence of the
Buddha's original enlightenment. Failure to recognize this fact has caused
many problems in the understanding of Buddhism. Many take the enlighten-
ment to be strictly a private affair and will skirt around it and not involve it in
any discussion, especially within the framework of other doctrines and princi-
ples of Buddhism. This is simply a gratuitous gesture and serves no purpose at
all. For the greatest gift of the Buddha, after all, is his enlightenment and the
exposition he gave of it.

---

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=95263941


I can tell you of my own experiences, though I cannot speak of Dizzy's. I can tell you what I saw, which, when I saw it, carried with it the imperative never to forget it! And then to tell others - that no matter what, there is never a reason to doubt, worry, fear, or grieve. That there is a deathless or infinite peace. The experience of this peace is like experiencing reality, and upon realizing one's nature, of the mind, or the self (as you wish!!!), it is like waking up from a dream.

So, so many people, several on here say that to say that this life is an illusion is a negating of it! And they will press this so much it seems like emotionalism to me. But if it is true, then it's pretty important.

Now Paul I hope you will always have more success in your spiritual life than you could ever have imagined. Don't doubt me to say that you can achieve this. When I said that there's no reason ever, ever to doubt, worry, fear or grieve, remember that Buddha's have a fearlessness, a fierce side as well! Buddhas after all do battle with and kill demons... in today's day it's mostly demons of delusion than a real live demon...

Now - as to self... perhaps I should post this on another thread, but I don't want to engage you on too many fronts. It seems to me like you are debating these and using quotes about Buddhist ontology and philosophy because you were convinced by it, which is good. Because it's a very good ontology and ground from which to proceed. It's amazing that people hold many views which are false. (Just like Descartes admitted.) And Buddhism has attained a lot. But you should not have any fixed ideas. Even if you have accepted an abstract idea of Buddhism as being closer to truth than the abstract ideas of modern secular ontology, which when you examine them do reveal themselves to bear no weight at all; even so, you should not have fixed ideas. There are many poems about this. Direct experience of reality is one thing - it is enlightenment. Everything is word jumbles and games which don't serve to much purpose... although they are necessary convulsions along the path to understanding.

I would urge you to really consider two things; one is the idea of non-duality, and it means. What is the range of your existence? Non-duality means that self and other are not dual, as well as other dualities. It means that when you experience pain, you are the pain, the experiencer of it, and the giver of it. However this is only an abstract idea and construct, it is not the same thing as experience, or feeling, of the unity of self and other, or self and universe. Yes it is true that self may be empty, but if you hang yourself up on this single word every time someone uses it to express a thought, you may miss what wisdom is behind the words.

The idea of non-duality, as we speak of it, is an abstract. Yet it is also something which may be experienced.

Now as to whether Heaven is real, I would ask you to go back again to what I said, that you are light - your consciousness, your eyes, your mind, your body, heart, and face, are all light. This is akin to the scripture called Prajna Paramitam Hrdaya, it is far more akin than you realize - the statements that "There is no eye, no consciousness," etc. In other words saying that there is no consciousness, no eye, no body, etc. There is not - but there is only as a dream-body, etc.

If your consciousness is light - and I do ask you to find a better definition if there exists one - then is it not possible for you to experience infinite (deathless) peace? Indeed it is, and this is the essential core of Buddhism. This is merely all I wish to say. And yet it is a pretty shocking or unbelievable implication. I say the follow-up as well - that this life is a dream, an illusion; in relation to experience of reality, which one can infinite peace, this life of duailty is a hey-day, even if it seems great and peaceful (may it so be.)

In the end I will not fight or argue or engage with you but retreat to within my own walls, where I am comforted by the near presence of hearts who love me absolutely, as I love them. If you have seen what I have seen, you would not be afraid of love as restricting one to remain in samsara; you would know the peak of perfect enlightenment to be so distant yet also so near - because again, the only separation, the only walls, are illusions, in other words, nothings. Again, the only separation between you, and anyone, from reality, is nothing. This seems like a redundancy, yet it's rather important. The best life and health are gained when one strives for the highest ideals with all of one's being. And love is a very real part of that, and it does indeed go beyond samsara.

I have more to say but I have neglected actually writing to a very dear friend to write this to you, so I should go now, also as it is so long.

I can just tell you; Heaven is real, and it can be attained, but helping others is really heaven, not experiencing of bliss for oneself.

And forget whatever I said... about my being reserved about you - I know you will not criticize my experiences or feelings. I just have seen some very ugly things come out of people's heads on here before... Please forgive me for before but I do trust you and know you are a very good person.

Thanks

If there's one thing that truly frightens me beyond all rational explanation, it's afterlife. I don't want heaven or hell or your purgatory. Let me die when I die; once and forever. No rebirth, no endless cycles of life and death. End! Let death be the end of everything. Let this biological machine rest after a tiresome involuntary tour.

At least Paul, we know... you and I... that we are on the right track. And we have a whole life-time to put things in perspective to whatever we are most comfortable with and in finding the true nature of life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Satan

If there's one thing that truly frightens me beyond all rational explanation, it's afterlife. I don't want heaven or hell or your purgatory. Let me die when I die; once and forever. No rebirth, no endless cycles of life and death. End! Let death be the end of everything. Let this biological machine rest after a tiresome involuntary tour.

---

Remember these words: "I want never gets". lol. But seriously there is nothing to be afraid of Satan. Its our perception that frightens us most:

Quote:

---

Men are disturbed not by things
that happen,
but by their opinion of the things
that happen.

Epictetus

---

As long as the world and humanity is progressing, there will always be plenty good on the way... all one needs to do is open ones eyes to see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Satan

If there's one thing that truly frightens me beyond all rational explanation, it's afterlife. I don't want heaven or hell or your purgatory. Let me die when I die; once and forever. No rebirth, no endless cycles of life and death. End! Let death be the end of everything. Let this biological machine rest after a tiresome involuntary tour.

---

I know what you mean. Buddhist writings talk of two extremes annihilation and the survival of a soul. The Buddhist view is that there is no permanent soul and so no survival of personality. The karmic impetus takes a being to their next reincarnation, which may be fortunate of unfortunate. So the state of mind at death is seen as very important.

It's not a comfortable or idealistic view, but scary. There are lots of other beings any of us might become if we don't manage to control our negativity. The only good thing about it is that there are paths to escape this. As there's no God/ creator idea - then it's down to the individual.

I'm only putting the Buddhist view. :biggrin5:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

So the state of mind at death is seen as very important.

---

I agree with this 100% Paul, but its not difficult to keep a good state of mind, its really very very simple... control your thoughts to only see the beauty in all life. Be "aware" of your thoughts and if something negative pops into your mind, immediately replace it with something pleasant. Enjoy your day. http://serve.mysmiley.net/winking/winking0066.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dizzydoll

I agree with this 100% Paul, but its not difficult to keep a good state of mind, its really very very simple... control your thoughts to only see the beauty in all life. Be "aware" of your thoughts and if something negative pops into your mind, immediately replace it with something pleasant. Enjoy your day. http://serve.mysmiley.net/winking/winking0066.gif

---

I'm glad you find it easy but I don't think this is true for most people. It's very easy to say what to do, but it takes training just to count the breaths. As for controlling the fear of death and coping with pain and illness - that's something else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

I know what you mean. Buddhist writings talk of two extremes annihilation and the survival of a soul. The Buddhist view is that there is no permanent soul and so no survival of personality. The karmic impetus takes a being to their next reincarnation, which may be fortunate of unfortunate. So the state of mind at death is seen as very important.

It's not a comfortable or idealistic view, but scary. There are lots of other beings any of us might become if we don't manage to control our negativity. The only good thing about it is that there are paths to escape this. As there's no God/ creator idea - then it's down to the individual.

I'm only putting the Buddhist view. :biggrin5:

---

Don't think there's no place for Buddhist idealism. Buddhism speaks of a reality which is to our mind inconceivable, for it is beyond the realm of our perception of the universe (which is based on I and other). The Buddhist reality is that of unity and oneness. Buddhist nature is that within us which is beyond everything else; and being beyond everything else it includes everything else. Including everything else, it must be the source, because the source is the only form which includes all others. As soon as one gets close enough to the source, one realizes, "I am the same as the source." Since the source is where you came from, it is who you are. When you say "I am" something, the "I am" is what everything in the universe came from. In Buddhist reality every individual has an influence on the world, and so they are co-creator. Each of us contain all of our own reality within our hands; with a gesture of the hand I change the whole universe. This is why the Buddhist scriptures describe of infinite heavens and pure lands. A Buddha can travel to any of them, and create any of them, with no effort, and no time given.

Mathematics comes to us and tells us the same thing; that the universe is an infinite fractal. You cannot division off any "part" because if you view a "part" you view the whole pattern repeated again. This is why we are the same as the energy of the universe, as are our cells. And as we are the highest of conscious beings on this planet (to some extent and in many respects), we have a greater degree of control over the energy in the universe than any other being on our planet. When we can see that the higher evolution toward which we should strive for is for us to live in perfect harmony with our environment, taking as little as possible and necessary, and caring for the rest of earth as our main concern; and then living happily in families or whatever we chose to do.

This is the highest form we can achieve on this planet; we can chase our dreams and chase eternity from a secondary priority, first we attian equilibrium in our living on the planet, then we try to make the world as wonderful as possible.

Buddhism is idealist in the very definition of the word, as it posits that this ideal utopia is possible; and tells us it is beyond what we can even imagine it could be. It tells us it is possible, and even possible now. Buddhism in fact teaches us to focus on the present moment, the momentary, though not as a permament escape, but as a way of improving our focus.

I agree that Buddhism is a very positive religion -and it has the highest idealism at it's core - to release the countless sentient beings from samsara.

The here and now aspect in Budhism is also very important. It is designed to deal with the problems humans have in an incremental way. People's suffering is often self inflicted as they are afflicted by the three poisons - hatred, attachment and ignorence. It teaches first to deal with the obvious faults - anger for example - with the antidote patience. Then it encourages the practitioner to begin to interact better with the people and circumstances in their environment - loving kindness- and to begin to cherish the people around. The next stage is to devote oneself to all beings.

Each of us contain all of our own reality within our hands; with a gesture of the hand I change the whole universe.

The problem is the realisation of the potential within a human life. The myriad probems individuals face make it difficult to realise. Buddhism is idealistic, but it is also realistic.

For example it recognises that the right conditions for a human have to be present before any practice can be done - these conditions are: a functioning mind/ body; living in a place where there is freedom to practice the Dharma; living wthout war; being wealthy enough to have the leisure time to practice; and having enough wealth/ food etc to sustain oneslf. Without these conditions even as a human - it is difficult to achieve anything.

That's interesting. Keep working for all our benefit. :) Keep up the good work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NikolaiI

That's interesting. Keep working for all our benefit. :) Keep up the good work.

---

I think the conversation has been very useful for me in organising my thoughts.
:biggrin5:

The group of Buddhists I meet and I have started a new study group, where we are studying Lama Yeshe's texts. It's been really good so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

I think the conversation has been very useful for me in organising my thoughts.
:biggrin5:

The group of Buddhists I meet and I have started a new study group, where we are studying Lama Yeshe's texts. It's been really good so far.

---

I love Lama Yeshe's writing. I've only read one article by him. Let me know if you ever get to "Make Your Mind an Ocean." That one was brilliant in my opinion. Take care.

I've got a number of his books and those of his Heart disciple Lama Zopa. We get them free as they are printed and disributed throughout the FPMT by benefactors. We're lucky.:biggrin5:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

I always thought that the whole heaven/hell thing was stupid, even when I was a kid. My reasoning: billions of people die every generation. Wouldn't it get full?

If some form of existance continues after death, I always thought that reincarnation seemed more likely.

---

I was just studying in Mark chapter 13. The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection, either. Jesus really set them straight!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lynne Fees

I was just studying in Mark chapter 13. The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection, either. Jesus really set them straight!

---

Is it true that the belief is that the body is resurrected and made whole again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

It says that the Christian/ Jewish/ Muslim version of heaven is an invented idea - around 165BC, which it claims arose due to the insecurity of burial rituals during the Greek occupation of Jewish lands.

It quotes some stats:

83% of US citizens and 51% of UK citizens believe in heaven.

Of these 71% believe it's an actual place

---

People's opinions of a place they've never seen, that they only know about through hearsay, say nothing about the place and everything about those with the opinions.

Quote:

---

Is the idea of Heaven wish fulfillment...

---

I think (for what that's worth) that Heaven and Hell are both about our wish for justice. We see many instances of evil going unpunished (i.e. the behavior of Greek occupying forces towards the Jews) and of good being unrewarded. We like to imagine that there is a time and place where an objective judgment will be passed and appropriate punishment/reward meted out.

Quote:

---

...and what about near death experiences?

---

The brain's job is to process and interpret things happening to the body and choose appropriate responses. Most of the time it does a reliable job, but changes, anomalies, and damage to the brain can cause one to perceive things very differently from the way another sees them. We've also seen that there is the boatload of tricks that we can use to deceive the brain. In short, the brain, like any instrument, is only reliable within a certain range of operation. When you place it outside that range, such as by cutting off its oxygen and causing it to begin to die, it will still diligently work to interpret these events as best it can. If one is pulled back to consciousness, the memory of these interpretations become the NDE.

Quote:

---

Are ideas of heaven, and by implication hell, too woolly?

---

If by 'too woolly' you mean without practical purpose because they're based purely upon imagination and hearsay, yes.

Wait, I take that back to some extent. Waving the carrot (gifts from Santa, 72 virgins for 'martyrs') or the stick (coal in the stocking, a lake of burning fire) can be used to influence another's behavior. Parents, government officials, and the clergy do this all the time. So, in their twisted ways, do abusive parents, abusive spouses, corrupt/demented officials and so on. So the ideas of heaven and hell are indeed somewhat practical. They have no intrinsic morality of their own, however, they are merely tools.

It's up to us to create good, or to do evil through action or inaction. There's no God to oversee, reward, or punish. No heaven, no hell waiting at the end. Life is now and it is what we make it. It's a huge responsibility, and we've been too afraid to face up to it. We've created our pantheons (from the gods down to the 'invisible hand') as a means of avoiding the responsibility for creating good and stopping evil. Occasionally we do involve ourselves, in crusades, proselytizing, or calculations, but always with the idea that we're an instrument of a higher power, and thus have limited personal responsibility--we're just tools of the mighty one. It will probably be a long, long time before there's general realization of our responsibility to one another and our world. Even longer before we are capable of integrated action.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Viejo

Even longer before we are capable of integrated action.

---

I like a lot of what you've put in that post, viejo. But it should be noted that we are now (and have been) capable of integrated action for some time. It is often seen among groups of people uniting in crisis, in team sports, in well-managed business situations, etc.

If you are talking about complete, constant, universal integration of actions between all individuals, well, I (for one) am not at all attracted to such goals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Viejo

I think (for what that's worth) that Heaven and Hell are both about our wish for justice. We see many instances of evil going unpunished (i.e. the behavior of Greek occupying forces towards the Jews) and of good being unrewarded. We like to imagine that there is a time and place where an objective judgment will be passed and appropriate punishment/reward meted out.
.

---

I think this might be part of the motivation, but there's also the strong wish for personal security and the desire to see one's relations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

The brain's job is to process and interpret things happening to the body and choose appropriate responses. Most of the time it does a reliable job, but changes, anomalies, and damage to the brain can cause one to perceive things very differently from the way another sees them. We've also seen that there is the boatload of tricks that we can use to deceive the brain. In short, the brain, like any instrument, is only reliable within a certain range of operation. When you place it outside that range, such as by cutting off its oxygen and causing it to begin to die, it will still diligently work to interpret these events as best it can. If one is pulled back to consciousness, the memory of these interpretations become the NDE.
.

---

This is as much speculation as the claims that it is a near death experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Viejo

It's up to us to create good, or to do evil through action or inaction. There's no God to oversee, reward, or punish. No heaven, no hell waiting at the end. Life is now and it is what we make it. It's a huge responsibility, and we've been too afraid to face up to it. We've created our pantheons (from the gods down to the 'invisible hand') as a means of avoiding the responsibility for creating good and stopping evil. Occasionally we do involve ourselves, in crusades, proselytizing, or calculations, but always with the idea that we're an instrument of a higher power, and thus have limited personal responsibility--we're just tools of the mighty one. It will probably be a long, long time before there's general realization of our responsibility to one another and our world. Even longer before we are capable of integrated action.

---

A simplification - as religious people are clearly not just negative, or tools of authority. A lot of good is done already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

This is as much speculation as the claims that it is a near death experience.

---

I take issue with this statement. His ideas on the subject, while theoretical, are in fact based off of empirical research done in the area of NDEs and thus, are certainly not speculation on par with a religious claim which is crafted whole-cloth without any empirical evidence to back up the statement.

A couple of examples of the former: His statement on NDE is speculation in the same sense that claiming homosexuality has a genetic basis' is speculation, or claiming 'there is a high probability of some form of alien life at some location in the universe' is speculation. It's speculation, but in an entirely different league than the religious explanations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Star

I take issue with this statement. His ideas on the subject, while theoretical, are in fact based off of empirical research done in the area of NDEs and thus, are certainly not speculation on par with a religious claim which is crafted whole-cloth without any empirical evidence to back up the statement.

A couple of examples of the former: His statement on NDE is speculation in the same sense that claiming homosexuality has a genetic basis' is speculation, or claiming 'there is a high probability of some form of alien life at some location in the universe' is speculation. It's speculation, but in an entirely different league than the religious explanations.

---

I'm not sure that this is true. Ok so there are ways to affect the brain with chemicals, lack of oxygen etc, but it's simulated. The point can't be finally proved though, and I suppose it comes down to preferences for empirical evidence or evidence in the form of testimony.

No they aren't

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

No they aren't

---

Well, I won't disagree with you!

:D

Are you sure you're an Aussie? They're not known for brevity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

I suppose it comes down to preferences for empirical evidence or evidence in the form of testimony.

---

I don't think that's the choice, because I don't think the two have equal weight. "Evidence in the form of testimony" is a convincing-sounding way of saying "whatever people tell you".

In the case of NDE, they are telling you two things - what seemed to happen and what was going on to make that seem so. There's no argument about the first of those - what they say seemed to happen is indeed what seemed to them to happen ("There was a long white tunnel and my mother was at the other end beckoning to me..."). However - the person saying that has no more authority than anyone else to conjecture as to why that seemed so ("She was calling me to heaven.")

The difference here is that some of us seem ready to accept that the person who had the experience has some insight as to why they had it. And others think that that's a separate issue entirely.

If this were a court case, by the way, the process would tend to support the latter. Witnesses are asked to say what they experienced ("...I saw a man run out of the shop holding a gun...") but they aren't permitted to make any conjecture concerning what led to that experience ("...he had robbed the store..." "And do you see that man in court today?" "Yes - he's there." "Right. That's the policeman who was later stabbed by the robber, who you didn't see at all.")

The idea of heaven and hell is nonsense and particuallrly physical domains of heaven and hell. Maybe there are allegorical heaven and hell but to think about a physical heaven and hell in this age of science and technology is ridiculous. How can I imagine about a physical heaven and hell and relate the same to my son? Can I convince him of the existence of heaven and hell high in the sky? Maybe I can convince the old generation who had part of their lives spent with their overly uncritical parents but this generation is not so, and this is an age where knowledge is cheap and accessible to most.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I don't think that's the choice, because I don't think the two have equal weight. "Evidence in the form of testimony" is a convincing-sounding way of saying "whatever people tell you".

In the case of NDE, they are telling you two things - what seemed to happen and what was going on to make that seem so. There's no argument about the first of those - what they say seemed to happen is indeed what seemed to them to happen ("There was a long white tunnel and my mother was at the other end beckoning to me..."). However - the person saying that has no more authority than anyone else to conjecture as to why that seemed so ("She was calling me to heaven.")

The difference here is that some of us seem ready to accept that the person who had the experience has some insight as to why they had it. And others think that that's a separate issue entirely.

If this were a court case, by the way, the process would tend to support the latter. Witnesses are asked to say what they experienced ("...I saw a man run out of the shop holding a gun...") but they aren't permitted to make any conjecture concerning what led to that experience ("...he had robbed the store..." "And do you see that man in court today?" "Yes - he's there." "Right. That's the policeman who was later stabbed by the robber, who you didn't see at all.")

---

I think you're right about the conjectural aspects. There are testimonies that claim to have seen the medical process from above etc. I was thinking more of those and should have made myself clearer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blazeofglory

The idea of heaven and hell is nonsense and particuallrly physical domains of heaven and hell. Maybe there are allegorical heaven and hell but to think about a physical heaven and hell in this age of science and technology is ridiculous. How can I imagine about a physical heaven and hell and relate the same to my son? Can I convince him of the existence of heaven and hell high in the sky? Maybe I can convince the old generation who had part of their lives spent with their overly uncritical parents but this generation is not so, and this is an age where knowledge is cheap and accessible to most.

---

OK so that's the scientific view, but there are people who clearly live a hellish existence - those with serious mental health issues, and there do occurr hellish conditions on earth - fire, flood, etc.

If you believe in an afterlife or reincarnation, then this posits the possibility that hellish conditions can occurr there.

Any true believer that takes the Bible seriously should have no doubt in his mind that both Hell and Heaven exist. The Bible is very clear on this issue. Humanity will be held accounted for their sins before God after death and at the resurrection. We all deserve to go to Hell because of our sin, but because Jesus took the punishment that we deserve, believers in Christ can pray for forgiveness and be with the Lord for eternity on the New Earth (Heaven) that He will create for us. The unbelievers will be punished for their sins as they did not trust in Jesus' substitionary punishment; they will be cast into Hell for eternal suffering. The current Earth will be erased and no longer exist, therefore, if Heaven and Hell does not exist, there is obviously no place for our souls to rest (or suffer) after death. Heaven and Hell does exist and study of Scripture will reveal this fact, and for those who wish there are several books and articles on this issue that can be read for further enlightenment.