I saw the realms of God a personal experience of life beyond life

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Originally Posted by Three Sparrows

if you believe there is no life after death, how pointless and meaningless life would be! If I believed that, I think I would die of depression.

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An innate human longing in a person for a deity does not suggest evidence for it's existence, it just suggests that one has a longing. It seems you see evolution as a threat to your deity, and for many reasoning and doubt are the key factors that break a person's faith. Personally, when I lost my faith I felt crestfallen, and a tad empty - but this was all addiction, it was like going cold turkey from nicotine. Now, I see how pointless a life can be if you do no living now and adhere to that which is subjective and not universal to your understanding, while you have the chance to really live, instead of waiting for the afterlife where 'the party is at'.
Its the question of what does one do when one loses their invisible friend, in the end its just about what gets us all from A to B quicker. If people want to spend their time genuflecting and blessing themselves or asking an invisible force for forgiveness for the way they were actually created (animalistic) then this is fine, if it makes one happier - just don't come knocking on my door asking me to do the same. In the same way, if one wants to live how one wants without fearing repercussions and living by what one knows physically, then so be it - the only real reasons non-believers are challenging the religious system is because of 'creationism as fact' and the ignorance this may cause, and when people sacrifice reason for madness seen in Atheist's links he has posted, and also since 9/11 there has been a resurgence in atheistic thought.
Personally I have more respect for someone who goes to a lesser economically developed country to help install a water-well in a village just because one can - and DOES NOT proceed to say, 'God did this for you, tomorrow we shall build a church here, stop worshipping your tribal gods, and leave this culture behind you, we're right and you're wrong'. Its disgusting how as faith leaves the secularising countries, it makes its presence felt in those who need reassurance to live their lives - and this is a form of psychological globalisation and it doesn't get things solved..

:crash:

We have heard or read so many tales like this and one cannot beleive them so easily.

In articles and stories, such as the first post in this thread, there is always the word 'vibration'.

It does'nt mean anything!

I've read many, many NDE's and a lot have common characteristics with underlying motives towards the promotion of a religion.
Indeed, many of these stories are used as a prostletizing tool by evangelicals.


Another thing; There is nearly always something left out, so that the reader, once he/she is interested and wanting more information, or answers as to what happened next, are left either with silence, or are encouraged to buy something.

Finally, if there is an afterlife, then great!
If there is'nt, then great! Because I will be the last person to find out i'm dead. And I'm not going to worry about what comes hereafter when i'm living now.

Someone once said that a person who lives his/her life, looking forward to the next one, isnt living at all, but is worshipping death.

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Originally Posted by Neilius

In articles and stories, such as the first post in this thread, there is always the word 'vibration'.

It does'nt mean anything!

I've read many, many NDE's and a lot have common characteristics with underlying motives towards the promotion of a religion.
Indeed, many of these stories are used as a prostletizing tool by evangelicals.


Another thing; There is nearly always something left out, so that the reader, once he/she is interested and wanting more information, or answers as to what happened next, are left either with silence, or are encouraged to buy something.

Finally, if there is an afterlife, then great!
If there is'nt, then great! Because I will be the last person to find out i'm dead. And I'm not going to worry about what comes hereafter when i'm living now.

Someone once said that a person who lives his/her life, looking forward to the next one, isnt living at all, but is worshipping death.

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Well said

One thing fore sure Atheist, we are all going to find out if God is real or not.

I am putting my wager on that he is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing , if you are wrong you have lost everything. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Three Sparrows

Hmmm.....
But if there is no God, how did people come to be? Evolution just makes no sense to me. If you believe in the existence of God and reject Him, you would just be embracing pain and suffering. Or if you believe there is no life after death, how pointless and meaningless life would be! If I believed that, I think I would die of depression

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I believe the difficulty humans have is that since we exist in a time frame; we believe everything, except the Christian god, also exists in time. Therefore we believe that everything had to have had a beginning and end. Even so, Christians believe that God is everlasting to everlasting.
If one throws the time concept out the window; then things simply exist, and don't necessarily have an ending. A persons cellular sturcture breaks down; but perhaps there is more to a person than organs and flesh.
If one does believe in God and believes that his/her current life is meaningless and pointless; they are spitting in his face! Life is a gift, health is a gift, if we have no preordained purpose; then the least we can do is make our life a blessing to our fellow man.

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Originally Posted by Rozzy

One thing fore sure Atheist, we are all going to find out if God is real or not.

I am putting my wager on that he is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing , if you are wrong you have lost everything. :cool:

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Rozzy, your ideas are rosy, beautiful

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Originally Posted by Rozzy

One thing fore sure Atheist, we are all going to find out if God is real or not.

I am putting my wager on that he is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing , if you are wrong you have lost everything. :cool:

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Ah, Pascal!

Pascal's Wager is often given as a reason to believe in god/s. Pascal mused that if the rewards of heaven are infinite, then given our incredibly short lives, if the odds of there being a god are > 0, then you win by worshipping him.

I always say that it shows why Pascal wasn't a bookie.

There are several parts to the answer, and I'll give you the short version.

1 let's say the odds of a god existing is 0.001. (I'm being very generous here!)
2 Therefore the odds of there not being one are 99.999%
3 Whatever the payoff, I am taking a 99.999% chance of wasting a lifetime and whole lot of cash on a premise as silly as the Loch Ness Monster.

And many people do waste a lifetime worshipping idols. I shudder to think what might have been achieved by mankind if we hadn't collectively spent so much time thinking about, praying to, talking about and worshipping some god or other.

Pascal's odds are getting pretty damned thin, let me tell you.

There's another side to it as well.

If a god existed and was so vain and filled with self-doubt that he/she/it would exclude a person from anything solely because he didn't worship it, then I really wouldn't want to go there anyway.

People, fellow humans, God is the same God whatever it may be for all of us...if it be an infinite source of energy that is beyond our brain functioning to fathom, let it be! Stop arguing about what YOU believe, since it is clear that none of us an KNOW for sure, no matter how high you've been; to the mountain top, to the light itself, or as the listener of a voice you need and may find helpful. Nothing on earth thus far has shown me a "God" worthy of the praise man gives it. We are exposed to a man made God. If one finds difficulty with this concept, this is, again, no reason to argue or defend something none of us are capable of fully knowing.

Accept your limitations within your brain capacity. Its called humility. Lets just believe in possible mystery, and if an athiest so chooses not to believe just like you, trust that such a conclusion comes from an examined and not so ignorant place as you might assume. It matters little what we believe, our actions are what matter most, believer, non believer, in betweener. Get your egos out of the way and start paying attention to what matters.

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Originally Posted by greendingy

Get your egos out of the way and start paying attention to what matters.

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Except that only works if we apply someone's set of values to figure out what matters.

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Originally Posted by Rozzy

One thing fore sure Atheist, we are all going to find out if God is real or not.

I am putting my wager on that he is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing , if you are wrong you have lost everything. :cool:

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And what if you happened to pick a wrong one?

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

1 let's say the odds of a god existing is 0.001. (I'm being very generous here!)
2 Therefore the odds of there not being one are 99.999%
3 Whatever the payoff, I am taking a 99.999% chance of wasting a lifetime and whole lot of cash on a premise as silly as the Loch Ness Monster.

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I am quoting atheist and adding the fact that you have to pick just the correct god. How many are there? Pretty much I would say ;)

0.001 divided by the total number of gods, would make the chance of your god existing pretty minimal. Yet I am not too much for a science for the absolute meter for life, so if your faith brings you happiness, cherish it.

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Originally Posted by Rozzy

One thing fore sure Atheist, we are all going to find out if God is real or not.

I am putting my wager on that he is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing , if you are wrong you have lost everything. :cool:

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That's one of the problems I have with a creator God. Why has an Atheist lost everything? The earthly conditions were created by God, and so the conditions for Atheism were too. Shouldn't the measure of a person be how much good they have done, how positive to others they are and how beneficial they have been whatever they believe? Paradise Lost talks of Lucifer's monstrous and self destructive pride, but if not being recognised and praised and worshipped to the exclusion of other Gods isn't pride, then I don't know what is.

Buddhism, for example, talks of unseen compassion - a compassion for others without recognition or credit, but just for its own sake. Surely that's a more Godly stance?

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Shouldn't the measure of a person be how much good they have done, how positive to others they are and how beneficial they have been whatever they believe?

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Alas, that is just a human approach to a divine question - gods don't use sloppy mortal morality.

You'll be ok, though - most christians believe your lot are just misguided, but goodly enough to let into the harpy place. :D

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Alas, that is just a human approach to a divine question - gods don't use sloppy mortal morality.

You'll be ok, though - most christians believe your lot are just misguided, but goodly enough to let into the harpy place. :D

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:lol:

I'm not convinced by ineffable nature. Anyway "I" won't be around. :smilielol5:

So, from what I can gather, Atheist, by your definition of what an atheist is, I'm an atheist and not an agnostic, which is what I've been labeling myself as.

As far as I can tell, you don't believe in God, but you don't seem to ever say he doesn't exist. Atheists, as I've always assumed, lived under the assumption that there was no God, no afterlife; that there's nothing more than what we can sense.

As an agnostic, I don't believe in God, but that doesn't make me consider that there may be a God, and I may be wrong. Every atheist I've ever met believes (yes, I use "believes" with intent) that there is no God, and is certain of this.

Add to this that the OED definition (which I know you discount, but I offer it up anyways) of "agnostic" is:

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God"

The bolded part seems to describe your belief to a tee, as shown by this statement:

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

It's really very, very simple; an atheist does not believe in god/s, a position which requires no faith at all.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

As an agnostic, I don't believe in God, but that doesn't make me consider that there may be a God, and I may be wrong. Every atheist I've ever met believes (yes, I use "believes" with intent) that there is no God, and is certain of this.

Add to this that the OED definition (which I know you discount, but I offer it up anyways) of "agnostic" is:

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God"

The bolded part seems to describe your belief to a tee, as shown by this statement:

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You're onto it, yes you're an atheist!

If you look at the OED description of agnosticism, it is really quite senseless:

nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena

Making a statement that nothing can be known is about as unequivocal as possible and therefore more of a faith position than many theists. I'm not sure why dictionaries have such trouble defining atheism & agnosticism. Dawkins manages it easily and he's nobody's lexicographer. Agnosticism should be the simple "don't know" second meaning given that most people use it as.

I'm surprised you say that every atheist you've met is a definite believer in the non-existence of god, because I converse with hundreds of atheists and only a very small percentage make that statement. The hardest of hardline atheists usually uses Dawkins' 6.9 on the 7-point scale to signify their level of disbelief.

Well, it doesn't just say nothing can be known, it says, "nothing can be known ... beyond material phenomena."

And, every atheist I've ever talked to amounts to about three, and we really didn't get into a deep philosophical discussion, so your numerous discussions definitely amount to more than mine.

So, what are the differences between agnosticism and atheism, then?

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

So, what are the differences between agnosticism and atheism, then?

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Not much. Mostly in the minds of agnostics who [very briefly]:

A Don't like being called atheists (which unless they believe in a god, they are)

B Tend to be religious apologists, because "we don't know" means we should be more tolerant of religion.

Atheists tend not to stand for that kind of nonsense. (and there are a couple of threads which expand on the above if you're that way inclined)

:D

There might be a complicating factor in that many liberal theists actively support and claim agnosticism. I just don't like fence-sitting myself.

A friend of mine, an atheist, explained it to me that there are different degrees of atheism. He says the majority are Agnostic Atheists, which is what you've described: Those who don't believe in a god, but don't claim to know that a god doesn't exist. The other end of the spectrum has the Strong Atheist, the one that is 99% certain that there is no God (my friend also says he has not met any atheist who is willing to say there is 100% chance that there is no God).

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

The other end of the spectrum has the Strong Atheist, the one that is 99% certain that there is no God

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That would include me.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

(my friend also says he has not met any atheist who is willing to say there is 100% chance that there is no God).

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There you go. They're rarer than you think - especially outside of high school.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

There you go. They're rarer than you think - especially outside of high school.

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:lol:

I must say, this has all been very enlightening.