A Rose For Emily

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, I just got that 'rat' idea. It is rather witty, actually - Homer was a 'rat', a we call it in the states. He used her, woeing her and leading her along. He must have taken advantage and I suppose she did believe him, being the naive person she is described as. In a sense, she never grew up because of her overbearing father; he kept her a child, she had no real chance to become a woman. So the 'for rats' label ends up being appropriate, even though poor Miss Emily is probably not aware of that idea at all. Her intention is strickly to keep Homer to herself. Afterall, she did try to keep her father, as well when he died, but finally the town's people took him away. This time she would be assured of keeping the man by her always by hiding him in the attic room.

---

I'm not sure we can label Miss Emily as "poor" and "naive". The only concrete notion we have of Miss Emily is her interaction with the town alderman and the druggist and in both cases she appeared to be a woman in control, definately not some poor confused girl. (Not to mention the preacher that ent to visit)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by papayahed

I'm not sure we can label Miss Emily as "poor" and "naive". The only concrete notion we have of Miss Emily is her interaction with the town alderman and the druggist and in both cases she appeared to be a woman in control, definately not some poor confused girl. (Not to mention the preacher that ent to visit)

---

I agree. She "vanquishes" the people coming over for the taxes. I was thinking the same thing Papaya.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by papayahed

I'm not sure we can label Miss Emily as "poor" and "naive". The only concrete notion we have of Miss Emily is her interaction with the town alderman and the druggist and in both cases she appeared to be a woman in control, definately not some poor confused girl. (Not to mention the preacher that ent to visit)

---

Yes, you are right, Papayahed; I guess I was reading that into the story. It seems I need to go back and read the story again or parts of it. That was merely an impression I formed because she did not marry. I did not in anyway, think she was out of control or confused - only when her father died and she would not reliquish the dead body, but that was a sort of 'temporary insanity' which passed and was understandable - more like shock. But then again, she did do poor Homer in at the end; that wasn't exactly sane, to keep a body and sleep with it. But she could not have been naive to do this either. She was quirpy I suppose and eccentric, but not naive. Would they be appropriate words to describe her?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Nossa, this is from Quentin Compson's section of The Sound and the Fury. This is probably as difficult as Faulkner gets;

When the shadow of the sash appeared on the curtains it was between seven and eight oclock and then I was in time again, hearing the watch. It was Grandfather’s and when Father gave it to me he said I give you the mausoleum of all hope and desire; it’s rather excruciating-ly apt that you will use it to gain the reducto absurdum of all human experience which can fit your individual needs no better than it fitted his or his father’s. I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all your breath trying to conquer it. Because no battle is ever won he said. They are not even fought. The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools.

I don't find it all that difficult, but an entire book written in stream-of-consciousness can be draining.

---

I actually understood this part (:D), but I think it's like you said, when it's a whole novel it's harder than one paragraph.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

No, don't start with Absalom. It's a great work, but soooo hard. I've always been told to start with As I Lay Dying, but you know that's the one great Faulkner work I've never read. So I can't say. I would actually start with The Sound and the Fury. We read it as a book forum read and discussed it here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ght=sound+fury. It's a little hard at the beginning but once someone orients you it's not as hard. just don't be obssessed with knowing every detail. It's more important to understand the general trend of the work. Plus Cliff Notes on this are free on the internet: http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/...ry.id-125.html and they help you orient yourself. Plus I think there are other internet sites that can help. I would also agree with Light In August. That's my favorite Faulkner novel. Once you untangle the time line in that one, it's not as hard. But very powerful and beautiful.

---

It really depends on the books I can find here. Faulkner's works were always the hardest to find. I'll start looking right after exams :D:D

Before we get to the theme, can we talk about the rose. The story is called "A Rose for Emily." And there is no rose in the entire story. What's the significance of the rose?

I'd like to mention the poisoning. Arsenic poisoning isn't quick, one dose doesn't kill you. Miss Emily had to give repeated doses and witness the symptoms of the poisoning which include vomiting, nasea, diahhrea, convulsions, cramps, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Before we get to the theme, can we talk about the rose. The story is called "A Rose for Emily." And there is no rose in the entire story. What's the significance of the rose?

---

You're right, I didn't find any reference to any roses in the story. I think that maybe the rose symbolizes the idea of sadness of the story. It's like when you go visit the grave of someone you loved or someone you at least feel sorry for their death, you put a rose on their grave, and hope they're in a better place.

I just assumed the rose was the story itself. Written from "the town" as a gesture of remembrance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Before we get to the theme, can we talk about the rose. The story is called "A Rose for Emily." And there is no rose in the entire story. What's the significance of the rose?

---

Yes this occured to me last night but I couldn't think of what it meant. What are roses symbolic of? romance, love, and they also have thorns so there's pain there. Maybe its no more than that but that seems a bit weak to me.

I've just gone back to the text and come up this this:

"The violence of breaking down the door seemed to fill this room with pervading dust. A thin, acrid pall as of the tomb seemed to lie everywhere upon this room decked and furnished as for a bridal: upon the valance curtains of faded rose color. upon the rose-shaded lights, upon
the dressing table. "

From the end, plenty of references to the colour rose there. perhaps the "rose" room is Emily's Rose... Her consolation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DapperDrake

Yes this occured to me last night but I couldn't think of what it meant. What are roses symbolic of? romance, love, and they also have thorns so there's pain there. Maybe its no more than that but that seems a bit weak to me.

I've just gone back to the text and come up this this:

"The violence of breaking down the door seemed to fill this room with pervading dust. A thin, acrid pall as of the tomb seemed to lie everywhere upon this room decked and furnished as for a bridal: upon the valance curtains of faded rose color. upon the rose-shaded lights, upon
the dressing table. "

From the end, plenty of references to the colour rose there. perhaps the "rose" room is Emily's Rose... Her consolation.

---

Oh good find Dapper. I hadn't notice that. Could the rose be Homer, dried up and pickled like a preserved flower? Faulkner was very fond of John Keats' poetry and uses images from "Ode to a Grecian Urn" frequently. Could the preserved rose (and therefore Homer) be like a Keats' urn a preserved moment in time, Emily holding on to that one moment in time, as time actually goes by?

Yep, that makes more sense. I'm officially taking my guess off the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Papaya, good observation. Do you think Faulkner was aware that arsenic poisoning wasn't quick? I wonder why Homer didn't leave the first time he became ill. He was certainly physically stronger than Miss Emily, and I would think a man who was Do you think the servant physically restrained him? I think his name was Tobe.

---

I was wondering about that and I came to the conclusion that Faulkner was too good at crafting the story not to know that arsenic poisoning wasn't quick. I read somewhere that in the past arsenic poison symptoms were like the symptom for cholera, Homer probably just thought he was sick.

Thanks for pointing that out Dapper and thanks for asking the question Virgil.

If Emily is the house and the house is Emily. And if Emily represents: "a tradition, a duty, and a care."

I find it interesting that the manservant is both gardener and cook; he tends to both the house and Emily. This is a stretch, but could it represent how slavery preserved a decaying culture?

To continue with slaverya and American history, I would like to quote the first sentence:

"When Miss Emily Grierson died, our whole town went to her funeral: the men through a sort
of respectful affection for a fallen monument, the women mostly out of curiosity to see the
inside of her house, which no one save an old manservant---a combined gardener and cook-had
seen in at least ten years."

Here's the sentence again ... kind of:

"When the South died, our whole town went to her funeral: the men (those who may have seen battle) through a sort
of respectful affection for a fallen monument, the women (those whose gender roles leave little liberty) mostly out of curiosity to see the
inside of her house, which no one save an old manservant---a combined gardener and cook-had
truly seen in at least ten years."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NickAdams

Thanks for pointing that out Dapper and thanks for asking the question Virgil.

If Emily is the house and the house is Emily. And if Emily represents: "a tradition, a duty, and a care."

I find it interesting that the manservant is both gardener and cook; he tends to both the house and Emily. This is a stretch, but could it represent how slavery preserved a decaying culture?

To continue with slaverya and American history, I would like to quote the first sentence:

"When Miss Emily Grierson died, our whole town went to her funeral: the men through a sort
of respectful affection for a fallen monument, the women mostly out of curiosity to see the
inside of her house, which no one save an old manservant---a combined gardener and cook-had
seen in at least ten years."

Here's the sentence again ... kind of:

"When the South died, our whole town went to her funeral: the men (those who may have seen battle) through a sort
of respectful affection for a fallen monument, the women (those whose gender roles leave little liberty) mostly out of curiosity to see the
inside of her house, which no one save an old manservant---a combined gardener and cook-had
truly seen in at least ten years."

---

Wow, that is excellent Nick. I think it fits except for one thing. I don't think Faulkner had on his mind women's liberation in any way. I think the women are interested in the house because of their domestic role in society. I've never seen Faulkner concerned with feminist issues. At least I've never noticed any.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Wow, that is excellent Nick. I think it fits except for one thing. I don't think Faulkner had on his mind women's liberation in any way. I think the women are interested in the house because of their domestic role in society. I've never seen Faulkner concerned with feminist issues. At least I've never noticed any.

---

Lol, you're right. People always say that Hemingway was a misogynist, but there seems to be more reason to believe Faulkner was one. Brett Ashley is stronger than any of the women I have come across in Faulkner's works.

Faulkner's women are naive and are drawn to abusive men: Lena Grove to Lucas Burch (Joe Brown), Joanna Burden to Joe Christmas, ??? to Lee Goodwin and Temple Drake to Popeye.

Maybe it's the death of romanticism in the South. The men out of respect for the southern belle and the women to see what a southern belle was. This is the disillusionment of the upper and middle class of the South, which only the lower-class (manservants) truly saw.

Even thought Faulkner thought the South needed to progress, he mourned for the southern belle.

Although I would say that Lena Grove (Light In August) is a powerful woman in many respects and overcomes the attachment to a bad male. But she does it through her feminity not any androgenous sense of being.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Although I would say that Lena Grove (Light In August) is a powerful woman in many respects and overcomes the attachment to a bad male. But she does it through her feminity not any androgenous sense of being.

---

I thought you might say that.:lol: I have to be prepared with you Virg. You are right though. Faulkner's titles are important to his works, so it was good that you pointed the rose out. Even though more time is spent with Joe Christmas, Lena Grove is light or the light in august. Do you remember the gender of the child?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NickAdams

I thought you might say that.:lol: I have to be prepared with you Virg. You are right though. Faulkner's titles are important to his works, so it was good that you pointed the rose out. Even though more time is spent with Joe Christmas, Lena Grove is light or the light in august. Do you remember the gender of the child?

---

Well, given that the story paralleled the Christ story I'm going to say the gender was male. ;)

Oh by the way, 'light" also was southern slang for giving birth. Light as in not heavy with child.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, given that the story paralleled the Christ story I'm going to say the gender was male. ;)

Oh by the way, 'light" also was southern slang for giving birth. Light as in not heavy with child.

---

Saved by a male.;) I read that some time ago, that's why I said she is light or the light; the former being slang use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Lena had a son. But, good as "Light in August" is, let's come back to "A Rose for Emily," okay?

---

You're right. When discussing Faulkner, it's hard not to refer to his entire cannon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Does anyone have any ideas about the theme?

We know one of Faulkner's favorite themes is the past versus the present. Or at least he loves contrasting the past with the present, and I think he does a wonderful job of it in this story.

---

Don't forget "love and honor and pity and pride and compassion and sacrifice."

Can this be seen as a tragedy? We are moved to pity and fear at the end of the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I'm not really moved to pity and fear, however I found the story profoundly sad and tragic. My heart bleeds for Miss Emily, just as DapperDan said. I definitely see this as a tragedy.

---

I'm not secure in that conclusion though, like Chester suggested we may be reading that into the story as a reflection of something within ourselves. As Virgil pointed out there isn't enough evidence to draw any hard conclusions about Miss Emily, Faulkner keeps her at arms length the whole time, we never know what she's thinking or what she feels - Possibly because the narrator doesn't know these things either.

I think my main feeling about Emily now is ambivalence, I don't know quite what to make of her or what I should be feeling about the story. That multifaceted quality of the story is I think a deliberate device to keep our focus diffuse. The author has several prominent and important themes that he's making statements about and he doesn't want us to focus on the protagonist. That's a conclusion I'm leaning toward anyway.

Edit:

Having just re-read the last chapter I would say that yes, pity is the prominent feeling, perhaps mixed with a little horror (repugnance?) rather than fear. Its only on reflection that I feel sad for Emily and the tragedy of her life bites, not on actually reading the story - remember my first post which I made moments after reading the story, I thought it was bland and didn't care about Emily :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Oh good find Dapper. I hadn't notice that. Could the rose be Homer, dried up and pickled like a preserved flower? Faulkner was very fond of John Keats' poetry and uses images from "Ode to a Grecian Urn" frequently. Could the preserved rose (and therefore Homer) be like a Keats' urn a preserved moment in time, Emily holding on to that one moment in time, as time actually goes by?

---

I think you've hit the nail there Virgil, I didn't get the dried flower analogy, that's perfect. "a preserved moment in time", yes, just like a dried flower; and homer is the focus, though the room is preserved too.
I would never of gotten the keats link, I don't like Keats as a rule and I know nothing of Faulkner, to be honest I hadn't heard of him before I came to this forum. You've inspired me to dig Keats off the shelf though - I'm reading the poem now :)

Anti, I've mention many themes throughout the thread. This is from one of my first posts after having read the story. I think this pretty much still states my view of the central theme:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Actually that may be only one of the cores to the story. I took the core to be the contrast between the social constraits and Emily's individual desires. That's why the choice of narrator is so important. And like Chester I think implies the narrator is not just a person but the town itself. The story is told through the point of view of the town. The social constraints are imposed on her, both from the father and the town. Perhaps it may be the very same thing. I don't think we're privy enough to the father's issues (it is a short story, but amazing how much Faulkner puts into this little gem!) but they may parallel the town's issues. So we may be saying the same thing. Also there is a generational gap between the values of her father's and the current town. So perhaps there is a distinction between the father's constraints and the town's constraints.

There a slew of contrasts throughout the story. The approach is extremely dualistic: black/white, individual/society, older/younger generation, father/child, life/death, union/confederate, babtist/episcapal, north/south, man/woman, youth/age. I believe there is thematic significance to the dualities. But let me hold off on that for now.

---

Yes I still believe the central theme is the inability of Emily to transcend all the contraints about her. And the the dualities are an aesthetic reflection of the split between her internal yearnings versus the external circumscriptions. The story is about individual egocentricity constrained by social pressure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Yes, I do agree Virgil, but doesn't "change is essential in order to adapt to life" encompass that? Or not? LOL

You've narrowed it down a lot more than I have. ;)

I have trouble with theme. I seem to stick to it in my writing, but I have trouble expressing it clearly, I don't mind admitting.

---

It's very complex and has several themes. I just picked what I thought was the main one. Oh you should also let the theme come out naturally in your writings. I don't believe a good writer starts with a theme. He starts with a story and understands the theme from the implications of the story and then craft the story.

Do you think Emily intentionally killed Homer, or was it Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy? Was she keeping him sick, so he would be dependent on her. Did the relationship with her father create abandonment issues?

If she wanted Homer dead, she could have used other means. There was never an inquiry into Homer's state. She could have stabbed him with out trouble. Was his death an accident? Had Emily been mourning all those years.

Writing style here not difficult yes, though not necessary.
Stream of consciousness; may be It could be done only from the perspective of Tobe, who can observe both town and house. (The narrator here know very less from inside of the house)

- But I am still one of "so what"ters. Okey, this is academically and mathematically well built story, but dont get me after reading. Many concepts in story, is also used by Faulkner in his novels. This is his atmosphere. Nothing original for him.

- The opening sentence and " Only a man of Colonel Sartoris' generation and thought could have invented it,..." are the sentence I underlined, I like them.

- Her father build a strong control over her but Is this enough made her get
loose her mind? Or the Homer's behaviour, enough? If these are the reason, I 'd faced more than this. But what i believe is she carried hereditary mental sickness, as they mention her aunt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Oh, by the way, to the poster who mentioned Virginia Woolf's "Haunted House", I read it last night and I do love it. I wouldn't say it packs more in just under 700 words than "A Rose for Emily," but almost as much and it's certainly masterfully written. I don't want to go off topic, but I wanted to thank that poster (I can't remember who it is) for introducing me to the short stories of Virginia Woolf. Previously, I had read only her novels.

---

You're more than welcome. ;)

It reads almost like a beautiful poem, doesn't it? I'm glad you liked it, Antiquarian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Well, I definitely don't think it was Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome. That happens when someone makes someone else ill or injures someone to gain attention from others, not the person he or she is injuring. The most common example is a mother who makes her child sick or injures her child so she can interact with emergency room personnel.

We don't know what happened after the townspeople found Homer. Faulkner doesn't tell us.

I think she probably just killed him as fast as she could with arsenic. I think she was probably terrified he'd realize what was going on and leave before he was so sick he couldn't.

---

I know it isn't it exactly, but I wanted to associate with the concept. I didn't want to say Emily was like Annie Wilkes.

I wonder where the weight gain came from. Was it depression, or just old age. I would think that her appetite would go.

By the time the townspeople found Homer, Emily was dead; it took years to discover the body, so Emily got away with her crime. She knew no one would ask of Homer's whereabouts. She could have bludgeoned him to death or pushed him down the stairs. Why did she choose poison, when there are quicker ways?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NickAdams

I wonder where the weight gain came from. Was it depression, or just old age. I would think that her appetite would go.

---

A sort of symbolic degeneration I think. I'm reminded of Lighttower in Light In August who is heavy in his old age.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I don't really have any good ideas about that, Nick. Perhaps she felt the other ways too violent, or maybe she just wanted to keep Homer sick, at least at first. Emily didn't strike me as a violent woman, just one who was deranged. I felt very sorry for her because of the cause of that derangement, but she was still deranged. She still killed Homer Barron.

---

You're right: she doesn't seem violent. She played a submissive role in the relationship with her father. Poison is is very passive-agressive. I find the story sad through Emily's perspective. The wrongs she might have felt that were done to her and her desperation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

A sort of symbolic degeneration I think. I'm reminded of Lighttower in Light In August who is heavy in his old age.

---

Hightower? I'm sure you were thinking of the title as you wrote his name, but I see what you mean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NickAdams

Hightower? I'm sure you were thinking of the title as you wrote his name, but I see what you mean.

---

Yes, Hightower. Silly me. ;) Memory is not as good as it used to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Yes, Hightower. Silly me. ;) Memory is not as good as it used to be.

---

I had to confirm it through a website myself.;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

We've already established that the narrator is "the town" or is speaking for the town. Do you think the narrator is young or old or is sympathetic or not sympathetic to Miss Emily?

I feel the narrator is older, more of Miss Emily's generation, and is, at least most of the time, sympathetic to her.

---

I wonder how the narrator knew of her deal with Satoris when the Sheriff didn't and no proof could be found, but it is first stated a fact. I agree: the narrator is from her generation or maybe older. The narrator never condemns Emily for the death of Homer. I think he might be sympathetic to her era.

What do you suppose the sex of the narrator is?

Fualkner names his characters in the manner Dickens did. What do you suppose is the significance behind Emily Grierson and Homer Barron names?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I'm not sure, but I get the impression that the narrator is male. Perhaps he was a friend of Colonel Sartoris.

Sentences like this:

We remembered all the young men her father had driven away, and we knew that with nothing left, she would have to cling to that which had robbed her, as people will.

Tell me the narrator has been around as long, or longer, than Miss Emily.

---

I can't tell the sex of the narrator, but I differ on the age. I felt that the story was a synthezation (is there such a word? ;) ) of a group of people (some young, some old all with various bits of the story) coming together and telling each other parts of her story and this narrator actually knowing less than the total story. The narrator tells us the men looked at her as a monument. That actually suggests someone who didn't quite live through it but accepts the established status.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

It's really difficult to tell, isn't it?

Here's one commentary I found, but it isn't necessarily correct. No one knows but Faulkner ;) He's sort of like my hairdresser. ;)

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/...ageNum-12.html

---

Yes a hairdresser. LOL. That Cliffsnotes analysis was pretty good. I dont; think they came to a conclusion as to whether old or young. Perhaps we just bring our vision to the story. Something in there threw me though. It says Emily was involved in adultery. Neither her nor Homer are married. Where's the adultery? At least one of the parties needs to be married to be considered adultery. No?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NickAdams

I had to confirm it through a website myself.;)

I wonder how the narrator knew of her deal with Satoris when the Sheriff didn't and no proof could be found, but it is first stated a fact. I agree: the narrator is from her generation or maybe older. The narrator never condemns Emily for the death of Homer. I think he might be sympathetic to her era.

What do you suppose the sex of the narrator is?

Fualkner names his characters in the manner Dickens did. What do you suppose is the significance behind Emily Grierson and Homer Barron names?

---

How funny, we see things so differently about who is narrating the story; all along I got the sense it was another (older) woman or women, since as someone said, the person or persons, never condemned Miss Emily, for her final act.

Nick, could 'Homer' be a reference to 'home' and did Miss Emily see him as her baron or was poor Homer barren (impotent)? ;) :lol: He certainly was so at the end, reduced to a mere decayed corpse. Now as far as the name, Emily, is concerned, I can only relate that to 'Emily' Dickenson, who also was deprived of love and wrote her poems in secret and stashed them in an attic. The 'Grierson,' has me miffed, unless it comes close, at least in my mind, to the word 'grief'. Miss Emily certainly had her share of that. I have no idea, if I am even close, but thought I would throw out these ideas anyway.

That is interesting to know about Faulkner and name significance; I will keep that idea in mind as I read his work. Thanks for pointing that out Nick.

Good thoughts on Emily and Barren :lol: Janine. I think you might be right, though we'll never know. It's fun to speculate. :) Grierson reminds me of grey like the color of her hair. Homer reminds me of the author of the Illiad and Odyssey. Perhaps that's an ironic statement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Good thoughts on Emily and Barren :lol: Janine. I think you might be right, though we'll never know. It's fun to speculate. :) Grierson reminds me of grey like the color of her hair. Homer reminds me of the author of the Illiad and Odyssey. Perhaps that's an ironic statement.

---

Thanks Virgil, yes, I thought ' barren' was pretty funny, myself.:lol: Who knows he may have been physically so from the start of his stay in Miss E's house. Maybe she started with that arsnic way back, keeping him ill and nursing him along, as she slowly killed him. We don't know the details. When I suggested 'home' for the name 'Homer' I was thinking in terms of keeping Homer at home. This Miss E certainly did achieve that. He became a very 'homey' kind of guy.;) Yes, 'gray' does fit the idea of a Miss Grierson - but it also seems to me to suggest the word 'gruesome'; other words to consider might be 'grievance', 'grief', 'grieve', 'greivous'....and a whole lot more...So who can really tell, unless we could conjure up the ghost of Faulkner himself, and ask him directly? Can you explain your last statement. I don't see the relationship exactly to this story, but it sounds interesting. I know in the novel "The Human Comedy" by Saroyan, 'Homer' was used in reference to the 'Homer' in Greek legends, but I forget now exactly how they related. That book centered around a small town and a very close-knit family life.

Antiquarian, thanks for your concern; you are always so thoughful. Yes my eyes are better today, thanks to some ointment that helped. I do have to take it easy, so it does not recur again. Bright computer screens are hard on the eyes and change in temperatures don't help either; I will just have to limit my time for a few days, so they get all better again.

Glad to see your thread is going on so well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

I can't tell the sex of the narrator, but I differ on the age. I felt that the story was a synthezation (is there such a word? ;) ) of a group of people (some young, some old all with various bits of the story) coming together and telling each other parts of her story and this narrator actually knowing less than the total story. The narrator tells us the men looked at her as a monument. That actually suggests someone who didn't quite live through it but accepts the established status.

---

Very true. There are times when a male voice is suggested and other times, like how the telling of Emily getting rid of her cousins sounds like gossip, suggest a female voice. They are legion.:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

How funny, we see things so differently about who is narrating the story; all along I got the sense it was another (older) woman or women, since as someone said, the person or persons, never condemned Miss Emily, for her final act.

Nick, could 'Homer' be a reference to 'home' and did Miss Emily see him as her baron or was poor Homer barren (impotent)? ;) :lol: He certainly was so at the end, reduced to a mere decayed corpse. Now as far as the name, Emily, is concerned, I can only relate that to 'Emily' Dickenson, who also was deprived of love and wrote her poems in secret and stashed them in an attic. The 'Grierson,' has me miffed, unless it comes close, at least in my mind, to the word 'grief'. Miss Emily certainly had her share of that. I have no idea, if I am even close, but thought I would throw out these ideas anyway.

That is interesting to know about Faulkner and name significance; I will keep that idea in mind. Thanks for pointing that out Nick.

---

I was thinking Homer as orator, but I like your connection better.

I found this on wikipedia under Grierson:
Grierson's Raid was a Union cavalry raid during the Vicksburg Campaign of the American Civil War. It ran from April 17 to May 2, 1863, as a diversion from Maj. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant's main attack plan on Vicksburg, Mississippi.

Two examples come from Faulkner's Light in August: Hightower the recluse and Grove the giver of life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Virgil, It wasn't adultery to me since neither were married. I suppose technically it could have been fornication, but we don't even know if Miss Emily and Homer had a sexual relationship. Some of the townspeople just didn't like seeing them together because he was "lower class" and a Northerner. The did refer to her as "fallen," though.

Janine, It's good to see you back. I hope your eye is better and trust it is.

---

What are the other connections between Satoris and Homer, besides the Confederate and the Union one?

I kinda assumed the narrator was the town itself, kinda like the phrase "if these walls could talk.

So what about Tobe? what's he all about? What happened to him? Where did he go after Miss emily dies?

The name Homer means "hostage" apparently (thank you babynames.com :D) I wonder if thats a coincidence as homer certainly is Emily's hostage. Of course Homer Barron is barren to emily, his love bares no fruit as he clearly plans to desert her.

With regard the narrator I thought whilst reading the story that the narrator was sexless, not a real person, just a contrivance to tell the story. I didn't notice anything to tie the narrator to anything in the story other that the use of "we" - the narrator is certainly talking from the towns perspective. Like papayahed says I think the narrator is literally the town (or towns people as a collective)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

When asked what inspired him to write "A Rose for Emily," Faulkner describes the story as a "tragic manifestation of man's condition."

In this case there was the young girl with a young girl's normal aspirations to find love and then a husband and a family, who was brow-beaten and kept down by her father,...a natural instinct...repressed which...comes up somewhere else and very likely in a tragic form.

In another interview, he explains why Emily murders Homer:

Warped...by selfish father, [when Emily] found a man, she had had no experience in people. She picked out probably a bad one, who was about to desert her. And when she lost him she could see that for her that was the end of life, there was nothing left except to grow older, alone, solitary; she had had something and she wanted to keep it.

---

Do you remember when Faulkner said this? It may be important since Faulkner had the habit of redefining his older works in order to fit his new mood. If you've read The Sound and the Fury and then glanced at the appendix, you know what I mean. In this case, I think Faulkner gives a rather Romantic spin to the story by making it about Emily. The Emily we see in the story isn't as developed or as central in the story as Faulkner's summary. The reader is distanced from her character by the narrator's perspective and the town's behavior toward her. It's hard to believe that the story is about her when she's such a shadowy figure. The story seems more about the town's troubled relationship with its past. Most of the details point to the past, memory, or old age. The town is located near the buried bodies of Civil War soldiers, dust appears in many places in the story. The entire story is a rememberance, and within the remembrance there are other memories brought up by the narrator and other characters. The story seems to be more about the town's own struggle with the past, and less about Emily's. Emily is brought up to be emblematic and to give a personal touch to the story. The story, however, is not about what's going on her in her soul.

In reference to what Faulkner wrote about his story:
Quote by Antiquarian

Quote:

---

In another interview, he explains why Emily murders Homer:

Warped...by selfish father, [when Emily] found a man, she had had no experience in people. She picked out probably a bad one, who was about to desert her. And when she lost him she could see that for her that was the end of life, there was nothing left except to grow older, alone, solitary; she had had something and she wanted to keep it.

---

This is what I meant before about Miss Emily being 'naive'; I meant naive concerning men. How was she ever able to get any experience with the opposite sex, being so isolated by her father? Here is what I meant, Papayahed, not that she was naive about other matters or dumb at all. She was rather foxy I thought about certain things such as her taxes; but when it came to men, her father had kept her like a child.

Antquarian, This short description and explanation, by the author, seems plausible to me.

Quote by DappeDrake

Quote:

---

The name Homer means "hostage" apparently (thank you babynames.com :D) I wonder if thats a coincidence as homer certainly is Emily's hostage. Of course Homer Barron is barren to emily, his love bares no fruit as he clearly plans to desert her.

---

Oh, that's interesting, isn't it? Thanks for looking that up DapperDrake, and further expounding on my idea of being barren. That explanation makes sense to me.

Quote:

---

With regard the narrator I thought whilst reading the story that the narrator was sexless, not a real person, just a contrivance to tell the story. I didn't notice anything to tie the narrator to anything in the story other that the use of "we" - the narrator is certainly talking from the towns perspective. Like papayahed says I think the narrator is literally the town (or towns people as a collective)

---

I share in your thoughts on the narrator. That also was my impression - the narrator was the town's people - a collective. There really was nothing to indicte it was only one person speaking or if it were, they were speaking on behalf of the town as a whole.

Quark, I think the story can be perceived either way. I took this story more personally; others may relate it to the death of the Old South/old ways. To me it seems like a story about each.

I read the story a few days ago but never had a chance to post (actually I realised that I had read it at university but forgotten all about it... probably because it had gone over my head then! ;))

Going back to the title... I have read some of the suggestions but none of them sits well with me at the moment. I was wondering... As far as I could see throughout the story she is refered as "Miss Emily" but why do you think it is "Emily" in the title?

I agree with the comments that the narrator is "town"... However, they never treat Miss Emily as one of themselves; she (probably the whole family) is like a "sight" for them; something separate to watch and observe.

I have read this short story a few times now and I am getting a better understanding of the story. However after reading some online analysis' of the story I keep reading that Miss Emily was highly regarded by the townsfolk in the story. I just get a totally different impression each time I read the story.

I understand most of the town refers to her as "Miss" Emily. A term that might be considered a term of respect if used today but back when the story is written I am thinking this would be a common way of addressing a non-married woman, especially in the southern States.

The other part many analysis' point to claiming great respect for Miss Emily is in the opening line of the story about her funeral:

Quote:

---

our whole town went to her funeral: the men through a sort of respectful affection for a fallen monument

---

Here I think the "fallen monument" refers to the death of the last of member of another great "august" family in town and not necessarily for Miss Emily personally.

There are many mentions throughout the story however, where it appears as though most townsfolk feel "vindicated" and even "glad" when Miss Emily and the Grierson name takes a bit of a topple:

Quote:

---

So when she got to be thirty and was still single, we were not pleased exactly, but vindicated;

---

Quote:

---

When her father died, it got about that the house was all that was left to her; and in a way, people were glad.

---

In another time when she is going through tough relationship problems, and the townsfolk mistakenly, yet still callously believe Miss Emily will be doing herself a service by killing herself with the poison she buys at the drug store.

Quote:

---

"She will kill herself"; and we said it would be the best thing.

---

So I just can't seem to get my head around the fact that the townsfolk actually held a great deal of respect for Miss Emily or her Family name. I think perhaps they ultimately respected the idea and legacy of such "august" families, but even the townsfolk seem to think that the Griersons family held itself in higher esteem than it actually deserved:

Quote:

---

the Griersons held themselves a little too high for what they really were.

---

I am quite a noob at analyzing literature, so any insight would be appreciated, as I am working on becoming more adept at doing so.

Also I was wondering if anyone had a good analysis of the importance of the "two cousins" that come into the story at three different occasions. No great detail ever seems to be revealed about them or their importance to the story.

cheers,
nap