I dont understand how someone can proclaim that they respect and understand other peoples beliefs ...yet, tell them they're going to hell because they don't follow Jesus.
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I dont understand how someone can proclaim that they respect and understand other peoples beliefs ...yet, tell them they're going to hell because they don't follow Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
I said that whole religion was flawed. I didn't say I hated it, i barely insulted it. I pointed out a fact.
It's exremists like you who give it a bad name. You want respect for your religion? you're not going to get it by telling us we're all going to hell.
Your whole faith that you have built up is dependant on a book.
Just a polite suggestion - this is going nowhere, so maybe it's best to just let it drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maletbon
I understand your frustration, but it only detracts from any discussion.
That's not what I'm doing, because I recognise the theology which covers evil and have no problem with it. I think it's rubbish, but that's just a personal view.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
The bit I'm interested in, as explained to skasian, is how adherents reconcile the Dante-type hell with life.
As usual, none of which is contemporary with Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
I don't expect that to have any relevance to believers, but it's factual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
You really are looking at things with totally opposing viewpoints. You said:
"It's like believing that someone who has murdered, raped, and done terrible things deserves a place in heaven if they "just believe" whereas a good person, someone who has yeah, made mistakes - probably made some huge ones, but all in all has been a decent HUMAN being will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus."
So you DO believe that people who have murdered and raped and done terrible things DESERVE to go to hell, but you don't understand how the "good" people could. You have really just told me that you believe hell exists, but only for the horrible, bad people.
Now see, this is where the logic does not follow. If there is no God ruling over us, then there is no morals. There is nothing that is able to tell us what is right or wrong, good or bad. The only thing we could rely on is human emotions, and if we relied on that, our entire world would be chaotic. So if there is no God, there is no morals.
It does logically follow that once there are no morals, there is no right or wrong. There is no crime, and there is no punishment or justice.....you wouldn't need justice, because there is no right or wrong!!!
You said:
"That is not only so morally backwards but, simply stupid. And i highly doubt a God that could create such beauty and mystery in our world, could be so stupid and cruel."
you have nothing whatsoever to measure up against. Who are you to say what is cruel and beautiful, mysterious and stupid? you are relying on your own thoughts and emotions when you decide that, and your definition will not be consistent, it will always change depending on what events have happened to you and emotional struggles that you have had. and also, morals come from a higher power, so if there is no God, there is no morals to go back on. If there is a God, he told you what morals are and how you should live by them. A person or being such as God, who does NOT rely on emotions, and is NOT constantly having mood swings would not be able to go backwards! He is not shaken by emotions!! he said it in the first place, and if he is not swung by anybody, there is no backwards.
My first question for you would be:
1) What do you define good and bad as?
and second
2) you said at the beginning of your post that:
"it seems to me that if all we need to do is accept what's written in a bible to score a ticket in to heaven, it's a little a bit of a cop out.."
a cop out of what? If it is too easy to follow, then why have you not accepted it? by saying this, you are showing to me that you want the hard way, and not the easy way. why is that?
I wish I knew more about philosophy. I have been following this thread with interest. Rush of Blood - Good Show old chap! You wrote that just wonderfully .
It's like waiting for the next exciting instalment of a mini-series.
Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
there is a vast difference between respect and truth. I do respect your beliefs. I had your standpoint once. I understand where you are coming from. But saying someone is going to go to hell is not a matter of respect or disrespect. it is a matter of fact or fiction.
If someone does not believe gravity exists and someone else says it does, is that a sign of disrespect? no. it is just opposing view points. I don't think respect is exactly the right word to use.
Are you respecting my beliefs? You are using your own logic against yourself. You have called Christians dumb, stupid, and when someone tried to explain their beliefs, you called it "the dumbest piece of bull**** ever." The point of this is not to insult people, but to get their minds working, thinking, and maybe re looking the issue over. Insults and disrespect will get you nowhere; it will only get you enemies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
You said:
It's exremists like you who give it a bad name. You want respect for your religion? you're not going to get it by telling us we're all going to hell.
So give us an alternative. how do we gain your respect? what exactly are you looking for?
I know nobody is taking note of what I say but I must say this. It is fair to say religion is flawed. I do wish to point out that all systems created by humankind are flawed. Democracy, communism, education, health, infrastructure etc. Religion is not an exception. Do flaws in a system make them useless and obselete?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
I must make note that you have used the term 'religion' as reference to all religions in the world. What exactly is it that makes religions, in general, flawed? Is there one flaw tying them together?
RoB I am referring to religions in general. I mean that nothing can be perfect. Our creator is. We are not. Our interpretations and consequent formations of religions are not. They are flawed. Imperfect. They are as flawed as any other system we have created in our societies. We can strive to perfect what we have created perhaps. I'm not a philosopher. You seem like a deep thinking person. This is my understanding. It is arrogant to me to suggest that religion above any other system is perfect while nothing else is. It is not a judgment, simply an observation. call it a sociological one. I don't have the knowledge to discuss at a micro level how those systems are flawed but that isn't the point. It is fair to say such systems are not without flaws but it does not make them obsolete. They are still a necessary function despite their imperfections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
If our Creator is perfect, and he told and instructed us to do certain things, does that make it flawed, or does it make it, since it was instructed by our creator, perfect?
You said:
It is arrogant to me to suggest that religion above any other system is perfect while nothing else is.
it is not arrogant at all! it is completely fine to say that! if it is true, then there is no arrogance in that.
my question is: what makes something perfect?
and just to get really really picky, you contradicted yourself:
nothing can be perfect. Our creator is. We are not.
so something CAN be perfect. (I'm sure you just love picky people, do you not? ;) ) it now all depends on what you define perfect as.
Lol Rob! My point exactly! Look at that - I am flawed!
I take it for granted that God is perfect, humankind is not, therefore anything created by humankind will be flawed. I'm sorry about my communication skills (they too are flawed) God can instruct humankind till the cows come home. Religion is a human-tainted system. Let me give you an example. I love my daughter very much. My love for her is immeasurable. I am however aware of her imperfections. Does this mean I should no longer love her? No. It means that I acknowledge she is not perfect but I adore her anyway.
Religion is the same. So is any social system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
yet another contradiction ;)
You said:
I take it for granted that God is perfect, humankind is not, therefore anything created by humankind will be flawed."
You could be saying one of two things:
1. God is a made up idea, and therefore since it was made up by mankind, it is flawed.
2. God is the only perfect idea created by humans.
Human kind is not perfect, you are absolutely right. So humans could not have made up an idea such as this. who could think of such an idea as this?
could you please define for me what perfect is. once you give me that, i can answer what you are saying more thoroughly
See Rush_of_blood - you've missed my point, like Skasian also missed my point.
I don't CARE about what you believe in. Believe in what you want, it doesn't bother me. But when someone is turning to me and telling me that I'M going to Hell because i don't accept THEIR beliefs - that is a lack of respect and acceptance.
It doesn't make sense for God to see us as his "children" ( and when i say God, i'm making reference to Christianity - not my God ) and yet be okay with us burning in hell and suffering. I find that you insult your own faith when you're pointing the finger at others and saying they're going to Hell for not believing. And you know what, it's scary stuff - it's frightening and it's cruel, telling others they're going to burn in Hell, please stop for a second and think about how messed up that even sounds...
When I say "you" i'm speaking in general terms.
Also i want to make it clear - i find Christianity flawed, but like i said earlier on, i'm talking about extremists. Most of my friends are Christians, not one of them believe i'm going to burn in hell because i don't support their faith.
And another thing, we as human beings have free will..
and yet - we supposedly get punished for exercising that free will? that's something else that just DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
Why doesn't it make sense? because in my opinion, the evidence is too overwhelming, to ever believe in such a place as Hell.
Why would a God punish me for using the tools he supposedly gave me?
Anyway i'm done with all of this, it's a waste of energy and time. I really don't want to hear about the millions of ways im going to Hell for not believing in a fairytale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
So, from your standpoint, what does our religion stand for?
You're perfectly right Rob. I am not philosopher material. You would do well to be in politics. There you would never have to answer a question directly! I know if i put a definition of perfection to you I will be stuck in more nitpicking discussion contests. It is a pointless pursuit. I would rather be happy than right. I think I said that somewhere before. I promise to visit your progress though because I like some of the things you say.
Rush - it certainly shouldn't stand for wanting to burn people in hell. That's not the type of Christian beliefs i associate, respect or accept.
Shouldn't God love all his children? no matter whether they accept him, love him, hate him - whatever it may be?
Like with every religion, there are people who - although may share the same faith, have varying beliefs. The belief that people will burn in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ insults the belief of love, healing, and freedom from suffering - which i know holds fast in many Christian foundations.
So i really can't understand why someone can say that God is loving, caring, everything we're not - yet he wants us to burn in hell for not accepting him?. Hmm.. right. I'm not insulting God when i say that, i'm insulting the people who believe that, and when you think about it, like i said before, you can't have much faith if you believe a "g\God" would do such a thing.
The belief that non believers go to hell is incredible flawed. It's used to incite fear. It paints god as a power tripping, monster.
And really, a rapist, a murderer - the scum of the earth can suddenly "find" god - and they get a ticket in to heaven? but the innocent kid/adult who may have his or her own set of beliefs burns for all eternity because jesus sounds just like another fairy tale to them..
makes sense doesn't it?
i understand what you are saying, but my question is still unanswered. There are actually many questions that haven't been answered:Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
1) what is your standpoint on Christianity? what is the purpose of it?
2) what do you define good and bad as?
3) what are Christians copping out of?
4) what exactly are you looking for?
5) what would you like me to explain that i haven't in previous posts?
Thanks Nikolai, for pointing out so nicely that I was going overboard. I think I need to stay out of discussions like this. All fundamentalist religions make me shudder, because they are so dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
Way more than just flawed.
Anyway, no sense hurting people's feelings who feel justified in hurting mine, since they have a book and all. Can't argue with a book, no matter how crazy its ideas.
one more question, limajean:
do you support the death penalty?
No, but it is another frequent flyer fallacy. One of the more naive ones, at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood
This is an argument from incredulity - because you believe morals cannot exist outside of a god's determination, you refuse to accept they exist at all.
Whether or not you agree with it, the thousands of studies into morality, altruistic behaviour and genetic success belie the fact that your answer is the only one. You might be right, but there are non-divine alternative views, and quite authoritative ones in many cases.
And this one, the proof is simply in the pudding. If there were any truth in the assertion, jails would be chock full of atheists and secular criminals. Unluckily for the premise, they aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood
As it happens, what statistical analysis there is of criminals, especially violent ones, tend to skew towards the theist side. But hey, don't let reality stand in the way of a good story.
I'm taking note of what you say, but you haven't been controversial enough for me to reply to yet!Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
:D
In the above post, I'll agree wholeheartedly with with all human systems being flawed. Nobody's perfect, so no system designed by/for humans can be.
No, i do not support the death penalty.
There is no such thing as right or wrong, Rush, only perspective.
Rush:
1) what is your standpoint on Christianity? what is the purpose of it?
The purpose of christianity? Does it not depend on the individual? like i said, i know plenty of christians who neither think they need saving or condemn others to hell for not following their beliefs ( even saying that sounds so unbelievably ridiculous - burning in hell? give me a break ) these people believe in being the best that they can be, to others and to themselves, and that's good enough for them. It is my belief that people turn to religion for answers, hope, reassurance - whatever they can't find within themselves. Because they THINK that they cant find such answers within themselves.
2) what do you define good and bad as?
And again, if i did say good and bad, i meant the term very loosely. And probably just as a comparison. The whole good and bad thing - i assume you're questioning me in relation to people, i used to make the point that if what today's society considers to be unnatural - and for a lack of a better word "bad", can pass through to heaven, why can't someone who has done little harm to others and doesn't believe in Jesus?
Like i said, i used the terms very loosely - and i dont think i need to explain that to you for you to understand that. Both you and I know that people are far too complex to put into "good" or "bad" categories. But, like i said, perspective.
3) what are Christians copping out of?
Copping out of?
What point of mine are you referencing with this question? once i know, i can answer it.
4) what exactly are you looking for?
Too broad.
You know, what bothers me about this whole discussion, is how not only my questions are being ignored - but those who hold similar ideas to me.
I feel like many of you are skipping the most logical questions - and when you are answering them, well , it's barely an answer. It makes me think that you believe in something that you're not even quite sure of yourself.
I mean - no one has explained to me how innocent people who don't believe in jesus will burn in hell, makes any sense?
That is such an extremist view - and there clearly is that belief shown within the posts of many of you here.
Ha Ha Thanks Atheist. I'm trying to believe in what you say but it just ain't working for me!
However, I'm doing really well sitting here with my popcorn, enjoying the show....
Limajean - there is a need for direct answers but it will NEVER HAPPEN HERE!!! It's like watching The Young & the Restless over 30 years. Is enlightenment gonna happen or isn't it? Today? tomorrow? Who knows? Stay tuned.....(lol) Popcorn anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Where would we derive morals, if not from God?
If there is no such thing as right or wrong, how can you say God is wrong for condemning?Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Please give me a list of what you would like answered, and i will respond.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
I'm saying that if he were to condemn such people, it would contradict the whole foundation of that religion! and that, right there, is my problem with the Christian faith - it is so incredibly weak at the knees. It can't support itself because their is such conflicting ideas within it.
Love thy neighbour, don't judge, etc etc, all are God's children
yet, condemning to an eternity of burning because they will not accept him, is illogical and like i said, greatly contradicts the faith itself!
I'm sick of repeating myself. I have made that point over and over again.
I don't want to write you a list because even you can not provide me with such answers.
Plus, it is your beliefs that are on the table, not mine, how can i ask questions to a bias source? i cant.
We can talk and talk and talk, but the extent of our knowledge, in this case, yours, is limited to that of a book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
If i can not provide with answers, others can. If you are actually interested in answering this, here are some books and sites that you can go to:
"Evidence for Christianity" by Josh McDowell
http://www.redeemer.com/news_and_eve...e_of_hell.html
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL...f_Hell_Part_1/
http://www.dbu.edu/jeanhumphreys/Dea...achinghell.htm
as for being bias, you are just as bias for your opinion. i would be happy to see what you think, you just haven't laid it out yet. i am pretty familiar with world religions. so please, lay out what you do believe so that i know where you are exactly coming from.
knowledge is also not limited to a book. knowledge is limited, but not to books.
Nature. It's clear that behaviour which can be described as morality is hard-wired into animals. Even birds protect their young.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood
That's instinctive and does not require decision. Birds and animals don't decide it is the 'right' thing to do. Mother's naturally secrete hormones which make them more aggressive when they give birth. Men actually secrete hormones that make them less aggressive.
It seems like it's called a moral because it's good. Interesting.......therefore anything in nature is justified. It benefits, therefore it is moral.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
So if the birds start attacking their young, does that make it all of a sudden moral to attack the young? maybe the mother never wanted offspring. is that moral?
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
Evolution at work creates a perfectly natural phenomenon. That we take it a stage further and call it morality is the human construct part, but it doesn't change the fact that the morality is still geared towards evolutionary success. Without rules, human society cannot flourish. If we all kill each other, it's not going to help humans survive as a species.
Bravo - good question, my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood