D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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Originally Posted by Janine

Well, I am not sure if Fergusson does undergo a transfiguration. I am still not 100% clear on the meaning of the word as Lawrence intends it.

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Well, who knows exactly how Lawrence intends it, but here's the first several paragrapghs of my thesis where I define it:

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"Life is a traveling to the edge of knowledge," D. H. Lawrence states in his essay "The Crown," "then a leap taken" (Phoenix II, 374). So many of Lawrence's narrative structures, within his stories, novellas, and novels, are based on this principle that it may be construed as one of Lawrence's aesthetic hallmarks. He continues: "It is a leap taken into the beyond, as a lark leaps into the sky, a fragment of earth which travels to be fused out, sublimated, in the shining of the heavens." Here, then, is the leap's significance, a transformation of matter to spirit and the spirit's ultimate coalescence with cosmic vitality. Lawrence's theosophy is pantheistic; the knowledge is mystical; the transformation, "the leap taken," a transfiguration.

If so much of Lawrence's opus is concerned with this leap, with this transfiguration, then it certainly is worthy of study. What is a transfiguration? It is not an epiphany--an epiphany being a momentary burst of enlightenment or awareness. Transfiguration goes beyond. Certainly it has religious connotation. "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light" (Math., xvii, 1-2). The transfigurative experience crosses into many religions, especially of western culture: Moses returning from the Mt. Sinai with his face shining (Exodus, xxxiv, 34), St. Francis receiving the stigmata, and the pagan metamorphoses of Persephone, Dionysos, Adonis, and Osirsus. Lawrence certainly had these in mind when he employs the term. After two years of marriage, Tom and Lydia Bragwen of The Rainbow pass through such a transformation:

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They had passed into the doorway into the further space, where movement was so big, that it contained bonds and constraints and labours, and still was complete liberty...At last they had thrown open the doors...whilst the light flooded out from behind on to each of their faces, it was the transfiguration, the glorification, the admission (95-6).

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The transfiguration, in general, then, is a spiritual conversion so overwhelming that it has caused a transformation--the physical transformation being emblematic--within the consciousness of the transfigured.

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From my master's thesis, "Toward the Transfiguration: An Examination of the Use of the Transfigurative Experience in D. H. Lawrence’s Late Fiction."

I think this can serve as a jumping off point for the next part of our discussion.

Virgil, I have to read this and then read it again. I am a bit tired now - you know brain dead, temporarily, after going out tonight shopping. I will contemplate it tomorrow or sometime on the weekend. I still find the terms a little confusing in relation to Fergussen. I have to let it sink in and think about it more. I did read it several times when I read your thesis.

Virgil, I understand "transfiguration" in the passage to describe Tom and Lydia Bragwen of "The Rainbow", but when it come to Fergussen, I can't see it yet. Tom and Lydia take time for that to happen, maybe even years to come to that point, but Fergussen is new to the touch or the contact with Mabel. Also, he repeatedly says he did not mean to love her. This seems to indicate doubt on his part in the fullfillment of love or physical love and furfillment and consumation. In this way wouldn't "transfiguration" be a possibility, but not yet realized in this story? The exact meaning of "transfiguration" still is not totally clear to me. Maybe you can point out something specific to me to make me see the transfiguration on both their parts.

What Are we reading next? I think I might join after you finish this discussion!

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Originally Posted by Asa Adams

What Are we reading next? I think I might join after you finish this discussion!

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Asa, Well, we have not really decided yet. We have been doing that when we finish up a story. This one is in a bit of lull right now. Virgil is preoccupied with "Titus" and "Frome". I am in "Frome" discussion but I skipped "Titus".

Anyway, Asa, great! I am so glad you might join in. We don't really have a time we will start; we started this thread loosely and figured we would just play it by ear, no pressure that way. Have you a suggestion for the next story? I picked the first one and V picked the second one, but you could pick the third. We could stick to the 10 or so available on Lit Net, or others, if we all have the complete set of the short stories. Virgil and I both do. The stories available on here are under "England, My England".

We have to progress and finish up this story soon. Hope you do join in on the next. Let me know if you want to pick the story. You seem very knowlegable about Lawrence's works.

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Originally Posted by Janine

The exact meaning of "transfiguration" still is not totally clear to me. Maybe you can point out something specific to me to make me see the transfiguration on both their parts.

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Janine, the best way to describe transifguration is to give an example from a movie I'm sure you've seen. In "The Ten Commandments" Moses (Charlton Heston) goes up to the mountain and talks to God. When he comes down from the mountain, his hair is grizzled and changed. His whole persona has changed. That experience has altered his being. That's a transfiguration.

If you understand that, then go back and read those paragraphs from my paper. Now Lawrence is dealing with realistic fiction usually, so the transfiguration is not a physical one, since that doesn't happen every day. Lawrence has the character undergo a psychological change as overwhelming as Moses's physical/spiritual transformation. In the end, it's all basically spiritual for Lawrence.

Did i make myself clear now?

Yes, that is very good, Virgil. I think I do understand it to that point. I do get the concept and how L looked on it. I just am not sure I see a total transfiguration in the instance of Fergusson and this story. I better read the ending again. It has been awhile now and my mind is muddled about it.

Last night I was reading some of the Lawrence letters and it threw some more light on L's thinking - now I am just on the early ones when he was a youth (The Formative Years section) but the beginnings of his philosophy are rooted there. One letter particularly stood out. He did a bit of preaching in it and then would surface saying something had interrupted his dream and the preaching. I am so enthused now and want to soak up all of the letters he wrote.

Note Asa's post and my post back to him; maybe we could pick the next short story ahead, so that he can start reading it.

I can't write anymore now - going somewhere today - apointment.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, that is very good, Virgil. I think I do understand it to that point. I do get the concept and how L looked on it. I just am not sure I see a total transfiguration in the instance of Fergusson and this story. I better read the ending again. It has been awhile now and my mind is muddled about it.

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Good. And I'll have to re-read that ending too. I haven't made up my mind about Ferguson either. In fact until our discussion here recently it never occured to me.

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Last night I was reading some of the Lawrence letters and it threw some more light on L's thinking - now I am just on the early ones when he was a youth (The Formative Years section) but the beginnings of his philosophy are rooted there. One letter particularly stood out. He did a bit of preaching in it and then would surface saying something had interrupted his dream and the preaching. I am so enthused now and want to soak up all of the letters he wrote.

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I have his collected letters and one or two volumes of his complete letters. Which letter are you referring to? I can look it up and read it if I have it. Just give me the date of the letter and to whom written.

Virgil, I am so tired out tonight. I am going to sit and watch a movie. I answered the post by Scher in the Frome discussion, but did not get to yours, which really proceeded it. That was complicated and I could not think of what else to write about the truth or validity of the narrator. I have to think about all that when I am more wide-awake, ok.

You wrote:
"Good. And I'll have to re-read that ending too. I haven't made up my mind about Ferguson either. In fact until our discussion here recently it never occured to me."

I did that today at the doctors, but now I can't think of what to write. Give me till tomorrow...again when I feel more alert.

The letter I spoke of in my post is to: Blanche Jennings, 25 June 1908
(note: I have not finished reading this letter yet - it is quite long)

I also read a long letter of interest to: Reverend Robert Reid 3 December 1907

These are early letters as you can see. He was quite young....23, 24.

Janine, I love D.H.L, Though I only did study him loosely through My University career. I am focusing on this thread so that I may learn something new and interesting. Bio-"Student for life" :lol:

You can pick Any L story for me, Guys. Im along for this glorious eye opening ride, :lol:

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Originally Posted by Asa Adams

Janine, I love D.H.L, Though I only did study him loosely through My University career. I am focusing on this thread so that I may learn something new and interesting. Bio-"Student for life" :lol:

You can pick Any L story for me, Guys. Im along for this glorious eye opening ride, :lol:

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Ok good, Asa, I will pick next. Virgil emailed me today about picking the next story when we finish this one. We should wrap "Horse-Dealer's Daughter" up real soon. We are starting to beat it to death, I think; but we're getting to the end, which is the most important part and brings up some good points and questions. There are always good questions concerning L's stories....some without solid or final answers. I think that is what I like about his writing most...makes it more intriguing. I have loved and been interested in D.H.L since I read "Women in Love" about 30 yrs ago....giving away my seasoned age:lol:. It spurred me onto reading many, many other works by L, but not till recently did I again tackle "Sons and Lovers" and thought it was wonderful, especially since my new knowledge told me how autobiographical it is.
This independent study of Lawrence has been a lifetime passion for me. I go back to his work periodically, but recently these have been my most concentrated efforts, reading 3 full biographies and planning a new one soon, "The Early Years" - Cambridge Addition. I am highly interested in L's early life and his formative years. Also, I am finding the letters so revealing and wonderfully personal. I recently bought a book of the selected ones, also Cambridge. I found the travel books on Italy likewise revealing of the man and his personality/ideas. You really get a keen sense from those letter and they are so personal you feel you come to know Lawrence, almost intimately like a friend.
Asa, When you said Bio-Student - you mean biography? I am too, if that is what you mean. I love to delve into the aspects of these authors and see just what motivated their literature. I am glad you are learning something on this thread - it makes it even more worthwhile knowing others have been reading it. I think the fact that Virgil and I debate a lot and don't always agree also suggests many interesting and good points. I am sure you will come up with good ideas and questions too, as we all read the same story.
Glad you studied him in your University days....I am sure things will surface from that time and your past studies.

I will look through my books and see which story I think would be of interest for the next discussion. Do you have a set of the "Complete Short Stories"? I have three volumes - had to purchase two of them online recently. If not I can choose one that is on this site under "England, My England". Let me know before I choose.

Hey, Janine!

I am a self professed biography student, yes. But I meant also, my own biography. "Student for life" :lol: . But I like the way you put it. To delve into them, and see what motivated them to write such great words.

Unfortunately I have not come across any collection of his that I really liked, publishing house that is, not stories :lol: So it would wonderful if we could choose something from England, my England, for convienence sake. Though, I could check out the Library down the road. Though, chances are slim, ;)
Thanks again, Janine.

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Originally Posted by Asa Adams

Hey, Janine!

I am a self professed biography student, yes. But I meant also, my own biography. "Student for life" :lol: . But I like the way you put it. To delve into them, and see what motivated them to write such great words.

Unfortunately I have not come across any collection of his that I really liked, publishing house that is, not stories :lol: So it would wonderful if we could choose something from England, my England, for convienence sake. Though, I could check out the Library down the road. Though, chances are slim, ;)
Thanks again, Janine.

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Asa, never change! I hope I am the same -"Student for life". It is a good goal. I certainly maintain and nurture the enthusiasm for learning. Most people I know probably think me sort of a freak, but I keep soaking up biographies and novels, whenever I can and I love of course, talking endlessly about them with others. Well, that is the best part.;)

Thanks, I just believe one can not separate the author from his life and personal history, especially in Lawrence's case, there are so many interesting parallels, don't you think?

I had to buy two used paperbacks recently off Amazon. These were two volumes I was missing to complete my short stories of L. Prior to this I realised I only had one of the three books. There are three separate volumes of them, and then the volume "England, My England", which I just happen to have from years back; being only paperbacks they are easy to cart around with me.

But I did think of picking from the 10 available on here until we run out of those. Perhaps if I mention it to one of the moderators, they could list some more of the stories from the 3 book set, as well. "England, My England" repeats some of the ones available in the set, but it's a nice collection all the same.

Perhaps I will pick the first and title story "England, My England". I have read it but would like to re-read it; it would make for interesting conversation. Let me decide for sure this weekend.

Well let's finish this one before we start another. Here's the passage where Ferguson goes into the pond and pulls Mabel out:

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He slowly ventured into the pond. The bottom was deep, soft clay, he sank in, and the water clasped dead cold round his legs. As he stirred he could smell the cold, rotten clay that fouled up into the water. It was objectionable in his lungs. Still, repelled and yet not heeding, he moved deeper into the pond. The cold water rose over his thighs, over his loins, upon his abdomen. The lower part of his body was all sunk in the hideous cold element. And the bottom was so deeply soft and uncertain, he was afraid of pitching with his mouth underneath. He could not swim, and was afraid.

He crouched a little, spreading his hands under the water and moving them round, trying to feel for her. The dead cold pond swayed upon his chest. He moved again, a little deeper, and again, with his hands underneath, he felt all around under the water. And he touched her clothing. But it evaded his fingers. He made a desperate effort to grasp it.

And so doing he lost his balance and went under, horribly, suffocating in the foul earthy water, struggling madly for a few moments. At last, after what seemed an eternity, he got his footing, rose again into the air and looked around. He gasped, and knew he was in the world. Then he looked at the water. She had risen near him. He grasped her clothing, and drawing her nearer, turned to take his way to land again.

He went very slowly, carefully, absorbed in the slow progress. He rose higher, climbing out of the pond. The water was now only about his legs; he was thankful, full of relief to be out of the clutches of the pond. He lifted her and staggered on to the bank, out of the horror of wet, grey clay.

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So now perhaps we should talk this clay water. It starts the passage and it ends this passage. Here's what I think it alludes to:

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4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 and every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

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(Genesis, chpt 2)
and

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17 ¶ And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth;
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

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(Genesis chpt 7)

The clay alludes to the rudimentary substance of flesh and life in general. Mabel and Ferguson have mixed themselves into primordial soup. When they step out of the pond, they are the new man and woman. Ferguson gasps and struggles to breath and then even breathes life back into Mabel.

Virgil, interesting correlations. I think you are going pretty far in this with the bible and Genesis. I don't personally see that deeply into the pool/pond significance unless to say a rebirth - but Genesis is actually a first birth of all things on the earth and the earth. It might be better to cite verses from the bible concerning baptism and being reborn.

But why the mud? To me the mud symbolises the melting down of earth and water into one element that would lead to death, then to be reborn again. Perhaps the earth elements with the water elements are like the phoenix being burned or reduced by the flames to be reborn. Also, the mortal fear it would pose to Fergusson with his vulnerable lungs - apparently a stand-in for Lawrence and his bad lungs - would be a real believable fear. Fergusson has a bad cold, mentioned several times in the story, so being dunked beneath this smelly dark dank water was an absolute life threatening experience for him. Also, he mentions that he can not swim, so it is a double fear with drowning. It is strange, Mabel has no fear because she is resigned to die, yet Fergusson seems to hold all the fear for her and himself. They are quite different in their approach to and feelings about the the water. Why do you suppose this pond was mucky and muddy and smelled badly? Could this indicate polution form mines? Or the dark unknown world of death? One can not see beneath the water. Fergusson hunts around with his hands desperately to try and get a grip on Mabel.

I still maintain the idea that in "Women in Love" Lawrence uses similar muddy water as a symbol of a bridge between life and death, or the passageway to death. The water also is muddy and murky and dark, and so Gerald cannot reach his sister and her husband trying to save them. It is like "looking through a glass darkly". He nearly drowns himself trying to bring them out of the dark water and save them. Also, later in the book Gerald goes to Gudrun in that same night all muddied and he makes love to her coldly and unconsciously out of pure need. She remarks that he is muddy and he causes her face to be smeared with mud, so he muddies her, as well. All these incidents of mud seem significant to me.


Prior to these passages I find some that are interesting but when we get nearer the end I will bring them up - they concern Fergusson and his profession and how he felt about it and his life ministering to the country folk.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, interesting correlations. I think you are going pretty far in this with the bible and Genesis. I don't personally see that deeply into the pool/pond significance unless to say a rebirth - but Genesis is actually a first birth of all things on the earth and the earth. It might be better to cite verses from the bible concerning baptism and being reborn.

But why the mud? To me the mud symbolises the melting down of earth and water into one element that would lead to death, then to be reborn again. Perhaps the earth elements with the water elements are like the phoenix being burned or reduced by the flames to be reborn.

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Well, I don't disagree with that. But isn't clay what man is made of? Biblically I mean. I tried to find it in Genesis but I couldn't find the actual word, "clay." Whether it's Genesis or not, it certainly is Biblical. And yes, the pond is a baptisim.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, I don't disagree with that. But isn't clay what man is made of? Biblically I mean. I tried to find it in Genesis but I couldn't find the actual word, "clay." Whether it's Genesis or not, it certainly is Biblical. And yes, the pond is a baptisim.

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Well, he is made of clay if he is a sculpture! :lol: Think you might be taking the bible verse (whatever it is) a little too literal. It means God formed man like a sculpter would have, from clay - at least I believe the statement to be something like that. It is an analogy or what is the literature device term (?) -you know better than I. No, man is made of flesh and blood, literally - not clay. There are parts in the Bible about man being fashioned as clay is in the hands of the creator. It is only a comparison I think.

Also, wondered why you did not address the other parts of my post like the muddy, murky water and what I said in relation to L's novel "WIL" and the scenes I pointed out . Also, the idea of the water and earth combining, and the thought of it being the darkness they must enter to come out in the light and be reborn.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Well, he is made of clay if he is a sculpture! :lol: .

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:lol: :lol: Very funny!!

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Think you might be taking the bible verse (whatever it is) a little too literal. It means God formed man like a sculpter would have, from clay - at least I believe the statement to be something like that. It is an analogy or what is the literature device term (?) -you know better than I. No, man is made of flesh and blood, literally - not clay. There are parts in the Bible about man being fashioned as clay is in the hands of the creator. It is only a comparison I think.

Also, wondered why you did not address the other parts of my post like the muddy, murky water and what I said in relation to L's novel "WIL" and the scenes I pointed out . Also, the idea of the water and earth combining, and the thought of it being the darkness they must enter to come out in the light and be reborn

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OK, but Genesis is probably L's most alluded to biblical section and he is constant talking about the new Adam. OK, whatever. Got to go right now, though. No time to write more.:(

[QUOTE=Virgil;360671]:lol: :lol: Very funny!!

Haha - right? well my mother told me there is some passage that says God took the dust of the earth and made man. I put her on the assignment to look it up. I must remind her later. She will find it and any reference to mud and man's creation.

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OK, but Genesis is probably L's most alluded to biblical section and he is constant talking about the new Adam. OK, whatever. Got to go right now, though. No time to write more.:(

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I did not know that. It is interesting to me. In which books does he allude mostly to Genesis? The later writings? What does he mean by the new Adam? I would like to hear more about these ideas.

[QUOTE=Janine;361232]

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Originally Posted by Virgil

:lol: :lol: Very funny!!

Haha - right? well my mother told me there is some passage that says God took the dust of the earth and made man. I put her on the assignment to look it up. I must remind her later. She will find it and any reference to mud and man's creation.



I did not know that. It is interesting to me. In which books does he allude mostly to Genesis? The later writings? What does he mean by the new Adam? I would like to hear more about these ideas.

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The Rainbow is almost a rewriting of Genesis. Perhaps that's an overstatement, but it's not far off. The symbol "rainbow" is right out of Genesis.

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8 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 and with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 and I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

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(Genesis 9)

"bow" is rainbow. Some day we should read The Rainbow together. It's my favorite of the L novels.

"New Adam" is a term L uses a number of times. I have to go and look it up. I'm sorry. I think he has a short story called that.

Glad you put you're mom to work. Maybe you can get her to join lit net and have her start posting. ;)

[QUOTE=Virgil;361380]

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Originally Posted by Janine

The Rainbow is almost a rewriting of Genesis. Perhaps that's an overstatement, but it's not far off. The symbol "rainbow" is right out of Genesis.


(Genesis 9)

"bow" is rainbow. Some day we should read The Rainbow together. It's my favorite of the L novels.

"New Adam" is a term L uses a number of times. I have to go and look it up. I'm sorry. I think he has a short story called that.

Glad you put you're mom to work. Maybe you can get her to join lit net and have her start posting. ;)

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Virgil, that is interesting. I think Lawrence had a lot of bible references in all his works. I don't know if the Rainbow is a re-writing of Genesis. Interesting idea though. It has been ages since I read "The Rainbow". Now I thought it too long a book, I seemed to struggle through it; maybe I was too young to read it. I preferred "Women in Love". That has always been my favorite of the novels. Yes, I figured bow is rainbow. I am pretty smart, you know ;)

Put mom on Lit Net? - I don't think so! :lol: She is computer inept and there is no computer downstairs. If she did get more adept at the computer she would love it and get addicted like me. But she does not have one, nor does she want one.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Put mom on Lit Net? - I don't think so! :lol: She is computer inept and there is no computer downstairs. If she did get more adept at the computer she would love it and get addicted like me. But she does not have one, nor does she want one.

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Your mom sounds wonderful. Well, if she can't join us in person, then in spirit. ;)

Let's get to mabel's transfiguration. Here's the passage:

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For some moments she sat and gazed at him awfully, her lips parted.

'Do you love me then?' she asked.

He only stood and stared at her, fascinated. His soul seemed to melt.

She shuffled forward on her knees, and put her arms round him, round his legs, as he stood there, pressing her breasts against his knees and thighs, clutching him with strange, convulsive certainty, pressing his thighs against her, drawing him to her face, her throat, as she looked up at him with flaring, humble eyes, of transfiguration, triumphant in first possession.

'You love me,' she murmured, in strange transport, yearning and triumphant and confident. 'You love me. I know you love me, I know.'

And she was passionately kissing his knees, through the wet clothing, passionately and indiscriminately kissing his knees, his legs, as if unaware of every thing.

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I love that passage. And we see that the experience has altered her permanently. Could one imagine Mabel doing that before the drowning? The drowning has taken her to death and back and her conscousness has been altered.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Your mom sounds wonderful. Well, if she can't join us in person, then in spirit. ;)

Let's get to mabel's transfiguration. Here's the passage:


I love that passage. And we see that the experience has altered her permanently. Could one imagine Mabel doing that before the drowning? The drowning has taken her to death and back and her conscousness has been altered.

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Yeah, mom's pretty cool; you would like her. She always get along well with young men. She was flattered you wished her a happy birthday. She is a bit of a bible buff, so that is why I put her on assignment. She can be here in spirit then;)

Yes, let us proceed....ah Mabel....now I can envision her 'transfiguration' or at least that L intended it that way. One thing that definitely bothers me about this story and I might as well get it out there now, is that in many ways I see these two people as lonely hearts, desperate for human contact/love. Personally I usually don't view that as an ideal receipe for a good relationship or a lasting one. They both seem so needy or at least Mabel is. The dunking in the lake and attempted suicide does seem to awaken here to life again. I can therefore see her rebirth as L would have intended it to be. The whole incident shocks her into being less inert -a word we have used often in the Frome discussion. Ah, 'inert' is a good word for aspects in this book as well. Even Fergussen is in a state of 'inertia', being resigned to his professional life. There is no great passion or excitement in either of their lives. Hopefully this transfiguration will work out for them, but I feel they have a long way to go to break through their own 'old' selves to achieve it. When we get to the end of the story, I think you will see the tone again changes and doubt sets in - making us wonder if this is a happy or potentially happy ending. Personally I do not think it is.
In the paragraphs you have quoted, I think Mabel acts very unlike herself in this shock or transfiguration. For a woman so seemingly shy and resigned, I have trouble buying this scene. This might just be personal, but it seems too sudden to be so aggressive in her actions - what do you think? Also, she knew that Fergussen was a doctor and so to save her life had to remove her clothes. Yet she acts totally shocked at the gesture or action. I don't understand fully why she thinks this gives her the right now to literally come onto him in this fashion. She seems very clingy to me, and very needy. Also she puzzles me in her persistence in asking him or employing him to love her or say he loves her.

'You love me,' she murmured, in strange transport, yearning and triumphant and confident. 'You love me. I know you love me, I know.'

When I first read this story I felt the woman intimidated, scared F to some degree, or amazed him. As with other Lawrence stories, there is a theme of the woman being dominate towards the man (not always a good thing or outcome). This dominance was not an ideal to L. It seems in these passages in the house Mabel has the upper hand and is coercing F to love her or say he does. I feel F is almost under her spell and afraid to answer or act any other way that would oppose M's actions of sudden passion. If he does oppose her, he risks her trying again to end her life, and now he feels a responsibility towards keeping her alive. Doesn't he sacrifice something of himself in this process of being protective towards Mabel?

There's a lot to respond to here Janine. No time this evening. I'll have to do it tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

There's a lot to respond to here Janine. No time this evening. I'll have to do it tomorrow.

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Yes, I know - take your time.:)

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, let us proceed....ah Mabel....now I can envision her 'transfiguration' or at least that L intended it that way. One thing that definitely bothers me about this story and I might as well get it out there now, is that in many ways I see these two people as lonely hearts, desperate for human contact/love.

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I agree. They are in need of something. A new life.

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Personally I usually don't view that as an ideal receipe for a good relationship or a lasting one. They both seem so needy or at least Mabel is. The dunking in the lake and attempted suicide does seem to awaken here to life again.

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Well, I don't see it to "life again," but to a new life. The distinction is important.

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I can therefore see her rebirth as L would have intended it to be. The whole incident shocks her into being less inert -a word we have used often in the Frome discussion. Ah, 'inert' is a good word for aspects in this book as well. Even Fergussen is in a state of 'inertia', being resigned to his professional life.

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I'll have to think about "intertia." Their old life does have a mechanical aspect to it, at least Ferguson. Mabel's is more dead than mechanical. Inert implies that they can't get themselves to do something. Mabel does do something.

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There is no great passion or excitement in either of their lives. Hopefully this transfiguration will work out for them, but I feel they have a long way to go to break through their own 'old' selves to achieve it. When we get to the end of the story, I think you will see the tone again changes and doubt sets in - making us wonder if this is a happy or potentially happy ending. Personally I do not think it is.

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I think you're thinking in purely realistic terms. This I think is a difference between Hardy and Lawrence. When L uses the word transfiguration (and he specifically used it here in this story), he is saying the character went through a religious experience. This would not be your typical realistic experience. It is not an epiphany. The character is transformed into a new person. You (I'm going to assume) and I (although once perhaps I did come close) have never had such an experience. It is a monumental religious conversion. The Apostles meet Jesus and give up their lives and follow him; Moses sees the Lord God and gives up his life to return to Egypt and lead the Israelites. These are transfigurations. For L, sexual experience (and i don't mean raw, cheap sex, but a loving kind) is a religious matter. That is why he loves Genesis; sex is such an undercurrent and linked to the devine. Mabel will never be the same.

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In the paragraphs you have quoted, I think Mabel acts very unlike herself in this shock or transfiguration. For a woman so seemingly shy and resigned, I have trouble buying this scene.

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That is quite right. It does come sudden. She is new, another.

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This might just be personal, but it seems too sudden to be so aggressive in her actions - what do you think?

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I think Lawrence wanted you to see that exactly. She has gone through a "supernatural" experience. She has gone down to death and has risen.

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Also, she knew that Fergussen was a doctor and so to save her life had to remove her clothes. Yet she acts totally shocked at the gesture or action. I don't understand fully why she thinks this gives her the right now to literally come onto him in this fashion. She seems very clingy to me, and very needy. Also she puzzles me in her persistence in asking him or employing him to love her or say he loves her.

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Her intuition, perhaps. Her new found enlightenment. She turns out to be correct.

'

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You love me,' she murmured, in strange transport, yearning and triumphant and confident. 'You love me. I know you love me, I know.'

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How does she know? They have both gone down and touched death together and come up. They have touched whatever religion stems from - life, nakedness, death - and so they have to be in love. For Mabel it is a logical conclusion. I think you're lookning at this from a rational mentality, and this for L is definitely not a rational enterprise.

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When I first read this story I felt the woman intimidated, scared F to some degree, or amazed him. As with other Lawrence stories, there is a theme of the woman being dominate towards the man (not always a good thing or outcome). This dominance was not an ideal to L. It seems in these passages in the house Mabel has the upper hand and is coercing F to love her or say he does. I feel F is almost under her spell and afraid to answer or act any other way that would oppose M's actions of sudden passion. If he does oppose her, he risks her trying again to end her life, and now he feels a responsibility towards keeping her alive. Doesn't he sacrifice something of himself in this process of being protective towards Mabel?

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Ferguson is probably the last part of this story's discussion. There's probably a lot to respond to above, so let's hold this off for a little, and i'll come back to this.

Virgil, Ok, what you have said and pointed out to me is good. I totally get your drift and will comment on all of this soon. I have some other matters to attend to and will come back to this by evening. You have make many things much clearer to me. Great!

Janine and Virgil! I was able to pick up the volume 1 at my Library. So I am able to stick around if you by chance choose a story from the first volume of shorts or from England, my..... Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Asa Adams

Janine and Virgil! I was able to pick up the volume 1 at my Library. So I am able to stick around if you by chance choose a story from the first volume of shorts or from England, my..... Thanks!

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Oh good Asa, I have volume 1 in front of me. I just glanced through it and most stories I have not read. One of those might be good. I would like to read something new. Vol.1 was one of the used books I recently ordered online.
How long can you keep this book out of your library? We have not finished up the current story, but we are getting close. We can push to wrap it up soon -this week hopefully. Requires just the ending now.
Have you been reading along? Discussions have been interesting, I think, so far.
I am to pick next story, so let me go over the list in Vol.1, and get back to you (hopefully tomorrow) so you can start reading it and getting your thoughts together. I will inform Virgil by email since I said it would be one on the list online; but that was subject to change. Can always do those later, now that you got Vol 1. Glad you will join the discussion - 3 should prove to be even more interesting.

Janine, Excellent. I have the volume for 3 weeks, but at the rate of the tiny library, I have dibs on it for as long as I wish, lol.
I have not been keeping up lately, exams and everything. I hope I can start from here and we can work out a great pace.

Get back to me on the next story, and I will start it right away.
Thanks, Janine
Asa

Feel free to pick the next story. I think we can wrap this current one in a day or so while we read the next story.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Feel free to pick the next story. I think we can wrap this current one in a day or so while we read the next story.

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:) Virgil, good, glad you had read that last post of mine and Asa's, too.
I looked over the book and read some of parts of the stories I did not know. Give me another evening to decide. I am not yet sure of which to choose, but soon; I want to pick a good one that will make for a interesting discussion.
Virgil, do you know, are the stories in chronological order as to how Lawrence wrote them? "HDD" is in Volume II, "Things" is in Volume III. I felt, in reading some of the parts of the stories (last night) in Volume I, there is a sort of progression. Volume I felt more like L's earlier work.

Asa, "president of the slow-readers club" - be patient and I will tell you soon the next story to start reading. I will read some of the stories quickly tonight or parts of them. See which to pick.
Gee, Asa, do you have an "in" at your library? :lol: They must like you, if you can keep L out so long. I find that I check one L book in and out of my library all the time - one of the biographies I need to refer back to. I don't see a big demand in my library for L's books so they never say a word to me about it. Sad to say he is not popular or even heard of in my hometown. They prefer Danielle Steel, ick!:( :lol:

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Originally Posted by Janine

I looked over the book and read some of parts of the stories I did not know. Give me another evening to decide. I am not yet sure of which to choose, but soon; I want to pick a good one that will make for a interesting discussion.
Virgil, do you know, are the stories in chronological order as to how Lawrence wrote them? "HDD" is in Volume II, "Things" is in Volume III. I felt, in reading some of the parts of the stories (last night) in Volume I, there is a sort of progression. Volume I felt more like L's earlier work.

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They are in rough chronological order, not strict. Out of Volume I, "The Prussian Officer" is a really cool story. But your call, Asa.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

They are in rough chronological order, not strict. Out of Volume I, "The Prussian Officer" is a really cool story. But your call, Asa.

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Virgil, I think Asa requested I pick the story, unless he emailed you otherwise. I, too, was thinking of "The Prussian Officer" - I may have read it before, but that is ok. Let's do that one then.

***"The Prussian Officer" will officially be the next short story read.***

Virgil, I am sorry, I still can't answer your long L post; I am too tired out tonight (went out and came back late) to answer posts and questions, even in "Frome". I have to delay until tomorrow. I will consider both first priorities, but for now I am going to vegatate and watch a movie. Sorry to keep you waiting on the ending of this story, but Asa can start reading now and I will after completing a short book, a non-Lawrence novella. I should finish up by the weekend and can start the new short story.

Great. Monday will be our discussion if everyone is finished by then. Thanks again Janine, and Virgil! Prussian Officer it is.

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Originally Posted by Asa Adams

Great. Monday will be our discussion if everyone is finished by then. Thanks again Janine, and Virgil! Prussian Officer it is.

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Asa, you must have just written this. I checked a couple of minutes ago and I was last poster. Good, glad you are pleased. Seems we can get this current story finished up by Monday - that sounds reasonable to me. It is my turn to comment on Virgils ideas in his last long post; I was too tired to think that hard tonight and will do so tomorrow, then we can move on to the end.

I can't wait to read the next story. I read a bit of that one last night just to see what it was like and it sounded good. I know that is a well known or noteworthy one. I may have read it before but a second reading is always best anyway.

Virgil, Ok, ready now to address this post of yours; sorry it took me so long.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I agree. They are in need of something. A new life.

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Ok, we do agree on this one at least :lol:

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Well, I don't see it to "life again," but to a new life. The distinction is important.

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You are right - it is now a "new life" - not "life again" - that I did not state correctly. It is like the burning down of the Phoenix; the total death in the flames and then the "rebirth" or rather the "new birth".

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I'll have to think about "intertia." Their old life does have a mechanical aspect to it, at least Ferguson. Mabel's is more dead than mechanical. Inert implies that they can't get themselves to do something. Mabel does do something.

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I guess I had Frome on my brain when I said "inertia";) Yes, I do think their old lives quite mechanical, but you are right - they did function, but so did Ethan. I meant they were 'inert' in their set ways and lives and resigned to their duties in them. True that Mabel makes the first moves and does 'something', but only after the death experience and the "new birth".

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I think you're thinking in purely realistic terms.

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Yes, I guess I was. Good for you to point this out. I had not thought of it quite that way or the next lines you wrote:

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This I think is a difference between Hardy and Lawrence. When L uses the word transfiguration (and he specifically used it here in this story), he is saying the character went through a religious experience. This would not be your typical realistic experience. It is not an epiphany. The character is transformed into a new person. You (I'm going to assume) and I (although once perhaps I did come close) have never had such an experience.

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Actually I do think I had this experience once, way back when I was in my late 20's, but I could not even explain it to someone cleary today. I absolutely did feel transformed or transfigured, and it was not like an epiphany, it was more profound than that. Odd, because right after that I read "Women in Love". The experience altered my entire life and my thinking. I am glad you came close or had a similiar experience. I think that that one pinacle in my life also opened my eyes wide to L's work and I was able to understand what he was saying. This experience made me open to his words.

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It is a monumental religious conversion. The Apostles meet Jesus and give up their lives and follow him; Moses sees the Lord God and gives up his life to return to Egypt and lead the Israelites. These are transfigurations. For L, sexual experience (and i don't mean raw, cheap sex, but a loving kind) is a religious matter. That is why he loves Genesis; sex is such an undercurrent and linked to the devine. Mabel will never be the same.

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I know I was never the same after this experience. But I am not sure you could say it was a 'monumental religious conversion', as for myself. Maybe I was only close, too.:)

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That is quite right. It does come sudden. She is new, another.

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Good, we are agreed on this point.

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I think Lawrence wanted you to see that exactly. She has gone through a "supernatural" experience. She has gone down to death and has risen.

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I understand the concept completely. Now I see the supernatural/religious part of it. It all makes more sense to me now. Thanks for pointing all of this out. It finally sunk into my brain in verbal terms. I knew it all, but in deeper, more unwritten senses.

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Her intuition, perhaps. Her new found enlightenment. She turns out to be correct.

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Like woman's intuition, I suppose; this being enhanced by the "transfiguative" experience.

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How does she know? They have both gone down and touched death together and come up. They have touched whatever religion stems from - life, nakedness, death - and so they have to be in love. For Mabel it is a logical conclusion. I think you're lookning at this from a rational mentality, and this for L is definitely not a rational enterprise.

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I am looking rationally about it and mentally. That is right L went way beyond the mental and looked to the deeper aspects of man. He is definitely not a rationalist. Would you call him an idealist?
It is the Fergusson "transfiguration" I am in doubt of. I still am feeling this way especially at the very end of the book. I can't seem to help it. I can't get through my own rationality about it and look at it from my own realistic view. More on this later.

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Ferguson is probably the last part of this story's discussion. There's probably a lot to respond to above, so let's hold this off for a little, and i'll come back to this.

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Agreed - that part will come evenutally.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I understand the concept completely. Now I see the supernatural/religious part of it. It all makes more sense to me now. Thanks for pointing all of this out. It finally sunk into my brain in verbal terms. I knew it all, but in deeper, more unwritten senses.

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Not that much to respond to. I think you can understand my thesis now.

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I am looking rationally about it and mentally. That is right L went way beyond the mental and looked to the deeper aspects of man. He is definitely not a rationalist. Would you call him an idealist?

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Definitely not a rationalist. Yes he is an idealist in the sense he's got a model in his mind on how the world and life works. Like I've said elsewhere, I don't buy into all of L's ideas. But he's definetly convinced. I think that's why many of his friends had problems with him. His ideas couldn't possibly meet reality.

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Originally Posted by Janine

It is the Fergusson "transfiguration" I am in doubt of. I still am feeling this way especially at the very end of the book. I can't seem to help it. I can't get through my own rationality about it and look at it from my own realistic view. More on this later.

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Ok, let's get to it. Here's the critical moment:

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'You love me?' she said, rather faltering.

'Yes.' The word cost him a painful effort. Not because it wasn't true. But because it was too newly true, the saying seemed to tear open again his newly-torn heart. And he hardly wanted it to be true, even now.

She lifted her face to him, and he bent forward and kissed her on the mouth, gently, with the one kiss that is an eternal pledge. And as he kissed her his heart strained again in his breast. He never intended to love her. But now it was over. He had crossed over the gulf to her, and all that he had left behind had shrivelled and become void.

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"Crossing the gulf" is an elocution Lawrence has used in the past.

But even before this, Lawrence uses another phrase he circulates in other works:

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With an inward groan he gave way, and let his heart yield towards her. A sudden gentle smile came on his face. And her eyes, which never left his face, slowly, slowly filled with tears. He watched the strange water rise in her eyes, like some slow fountain coming up. And his heart seemed to burn and melt away in his breast.

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"Melt" is the word and it does signal a transfiguration in Lawrencian lingo. A charcter for L usually goes from hard to soft, from crystal to melt. That's the second time in the story that F's heart melts. The first is just after she sits up.

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'Do you love me then?' she asked.

He only stood and stared at her, fascinated. His soul seemed to melt.

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Melts twice in the story, his heart ripped, and crosses the gulf. While it is not as clearly put as Mabel, I think Ferguson does also undergo a transfiguration. But here's the clincher:

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Her hands were drawing him, drawing him down to her. He was afraid, even a little horrified. For he had, really, no intention of loving her. Yet her hands were drawing him towards her. He put out his hand quickly to steady himself, and grasped her bare shoulder. A flame seemed to burn the hand that grasped her soft shoulder. He had no intention of loving her: his whole will was against his yielding. It was horrible. And yet wonderful was the touch of her shoulders, beautiful the shining of her face. Was she perhaps mad? He had a horror of yielding to her. Yet something in him ached also.

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A flame too. All Lawrencian language.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Not that much to respond to. I think you can understand my thesis now.

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Yes, understand the thesis much better now and the ideas of L's you were concentrating on.

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Definitely not a rationalist. Yes he is an idealist in the sense he's got a model in his mind on how the world and life works. Like I've said elsewhere, I don't buy into all of L's ideas. But he's definetly convinced. I think that's why many of his friends had problems with him. His ideas couldn't possibly meet reality.

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I thought so, also - an idealist. Yes, many of his ideas couldn't possibly be realistic. I can see how he lost some of his friends along the way.

Do you think you could post the next paragraphs you would like to address? I think it actually (realistically) might take one or two more days to complete this story.

Asa agreed we should start the new story on Monday. We can all start reading it or read it on the weekend.