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:smash: I'm quite glad you revived this post; it's a very interesting concept if one thinks of it from all perspectives. I do believe that the poster was using a metaphor; but, perhaps you should ask him. Part of the reason why most of participate on this literature forum is that we have the opportunity to explore the literature, the authors, delve into their rational and our belief systems. Welcome to the forum:nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by KrakenRouge
Well, here´s some story:Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
My newest satire is about Finland; Jesus Christ will come again into this hell - Finland - and Satan is the master - believe me! Satire is the name of the game. Now, Jesus has JUST the same style before, and most Finnish people blames him as a stupid one. In other case, Satan has a LOT of fun. He corrupts Finnish politics, religion, religion, arts, act by act, etc. He lives in parliamenthouse etc. Demons are stupid a ss hole s. Satan is nice, VERY handsome, look-a-like-wise gentleman with a huge coc.... no matter. (Do you ever think that when people say that Finland is nice country? It looks a like it....)
Finally Jesus will be burn in bonfire - we are so "intellectual".
Point is to show, that human nature is very corrupted one. I Don´t see any saviour from inside.
:cool: I see you are also a freedom fighter, Jommil.:eek: A little off point, perhaps, but aren't they all:brow: Are you Finnish, by the way? :wave: Welcome to the forum:banana::banana:Quote:
Originally Posted by JommiL
Well, i am a freedomfighter, but im also VERY plus or minus - guy. You either like me or not. What i try to say, is that we has t be morally strong backbone, but litarature etc. It is matter of taste.
If you want to change anything in this world, you need faith; If you will create some text to readers and you want that they will think again, you must be morally better first; If you want to change the the world, but your idea´s will not gettingyou any better, it is nonsense. All of your writings are stupid; How do you think that you could change world, it they cant even change you?
BTW; My newest book has it own name; Freedom. What freedom is? If you ask, i can tell short story about it...
I am a blunt person myself, so I appreciate honesty. Do you believe that morals are universal? Religion does not seem to use the same morals over time; but adapt to the needs of circumstance. What do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by JommiL
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Well, moral IS universal. There´s a many points in itK; Bible says that you can´t steal, lie etc. It is hard so say otherwise.
My point of view is that we can be free, but there´s just one moral thing.
[QUOTE=JommiL;795191]Well, moral IS universal. There´s a many points in itK; Bible says that you can´t steal, lie etc. It is hard so say otherwise.
My point of view is that we can be free, but there´s just one moral thing.[/QUOTE
I 've often been disturbed that God took sides in the wars in old times; that if one believes in the concept of creationism, then there was incest after that little disastorous affair in the garden; which was later considered wrong. I don't understand why God would ask for a blood sacrifice when he created all things which are made from flesh; I found it sadistic when he tested Abraham by asking him to kill Isaac...Had I have been near the cross when Jesus was being crucified; I would have been waiting for a last minute reprieve from the govenor. Do you ever ask yourself about these things?
Does anyone question this:confused:
Good question. Ok. What do you think - before i answer - if catholics are in war, what do you think, which side God is? Both sides pray for God from sap, and both has same God.
:rolleyes: The above remarks were what made me originally question the fundamentalist doctorines. I believe in the supernatural; but not in a god that resembles man. I have suspected for many years that the most powerful people of the most powerful countries are bouncing us about like puppets and blaming God, the devil, and small secular groups for problems that we have created and forgotten as soon as the next CNN report, reality show or politician tells us a different version of a truth we should have remembered from a time, not even ten years earlier. Man is a fical creature, and has made his god in his image.Quote:
Originally Posted by JommiL
Let me readdress this with a question of my own, do you believe Earth is a paradise? Do you believe on Earth justice and righteousness and honesty always prevail? Are the poor, downtrodden, broken, oppressed, weak, disenfranchised, elderly, and powerless always lifted up? Are they loved and cared for?Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
What if God once gave this to mankind, but mankind had it's ears tickled into temptation of rebellion and disobedience.
Satan is called the Lord of this World, Father of Lies, Murderer from the Beginning, Prince of the Power of the Air, principalities and powers, and accuser of the brethren. Do you see the drawn parallels between Satan and mankind/the world?
Mankind followed Satan into Sin and it can't be more evident than in the whole world of around us. We witness it every minute of the day.
Jesus said fear not if the world hates you, for it hated me first. This principally "satanic" world with "satanic" values rejected Christ and crucified Him because he was too good and too incorruptible and too honest.
There is only one God, Blaze. The so-called "universal God" IS the Christian God as far as I'm concerned. Muslim's view Allah as the "universal God" and Jews view Yahweh as the "universal God."Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
Sure, I understand that other faiths have their vision. I don't understand how that's relevant to what I posted.
Only "baseless" depending upon what you choose for a foundation for your assertion; mine's based on the Bible. Do you have something more authoritative than that to challenge me with?
Well, don't mince any words here, fella. Some of us aren't that impressed with your take on this topic either...Quote:
Originally Posted by KrakenRouge
Again, not sure who made you the arbiter of what is sensible or not - the characters are "fictional" to YOU; the issue is a metaphor to YOU. For some of us, it is reality and a topic worthy of discussion. Your boiling it all down to political philosophy is interesting, but the theology of the question can't simply be dismissed away, try as you might.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrakenRouge
All you've really said in this post is "I don't believe in the Bible." Fine - but is that it? Or have you more?Quote:
Originally Posted by KrakenRouge
I have no authority as such and no scholastic disposition in point of fact. I glean these ideas from reading yours and the rest of other posters' and based on that I inferred my notion of it. This is argumentation and a classical and timeless issue and we never can satisfy each other. Religions and ideals are always militaristic things and religions have been always more detrimental than beneficial to humanity. History endorses this fact. Now the difference between your points and mine is I never assert my religion, that is Hinduism fanatically and you do it zealously to the extent of claiming that the Christian God is true and the Biblical scheme of the creation of the universe is valid and the like. This narrows down our understanding of human nature and our portrayal of the world we live in. Humanity at times becomes warring entities when such narrow dogmas rock us. While you put forth yours I did mine and there is nothing between us and the rest of other readers or posters judge us. We leave it to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
However my plea is rather than becoming geo or religion centric let us be humane and cultivate humanitarian values. We will do something to keep the world clean of fanaticisms and fundamentalisms that is plaguing the universally relentlessly
I appreciate your honesty here. This has less to do with "scholasticism" than it does the foundation of our claims as to the character of God. The different religions that exist do so largely through their disagreement upon the character of God. As such, most religions are mutually exclusive because their claims often involve contradictions. Your vision of God, then, is a puzzle created by pulling different pieces and assembling them into a whole. I find that problematic because that strikes me as creating God according to your vision. Doing so essentially allows you to create a being who doesn't really exist because how can you be sure the pieces you have chosen are the correct ones? Either all religions are wrong, or one of them is right; they can't all be right (because they contradict each other and the most basic rule of logic is that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time). While I respect your method, its results cannot be relied upon with any stability.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
I find your use of universals interesting. "Always"? Really? I find that a difficult position to maintain. As well, people who attack religion conveniently side step the numerous social/charitable things religions do in this world. The idea that religion has been more harmful than beneficial is simply not defensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
I'm sorry - I'm hard-pressed to find the "zealous" nature of my posts. Would you mind pointing that out? I simply assert the vision of God I believe to be true - just as you do. And why shouldn't I assert that? Isn't that what you do? And why shouldn't I think my vision is correct? Why believe in Christianity (or Judaism or Islam, etc) if I don't fully believe in its truth? I do not understand why you write what sounds like criticism of my defense of my faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
While your view may be "wider," that is largely because you have assembled a God who is not based upon any standard. Religions generally have a sacred text that is the basis of the faith - a document that establishes the parameters of the belief. If you subscribe to no real faith per se and rather have assembled your idea of God piece-meal, well I suppose you could believe that you have a "wider" view than me, but that width is largely a product of refusing to subscribe to a clear vision of God in favor for one you've created for yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
I respect your final plea, but the problem is this: there needs to be a stable "ground" as to the character of God. Without that, he becomes whatever you and I want, and at that point, we can (via our humanly-shaped diety) justify whatever we want - and then the terror begins.
Satan is a vain liar and murderer.
Agree.. and much more ..he's teh worst of all..and he drives people to do wrong as well..Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebas. Melmoth
I mean ..why do we even discuss this.. Every one knows Satan .. !!
I wish this were true. CS Lewis argued in his book The Screwtape Letters that the two most dangerous things we can do is to a) take Satan lightly, or b) to cease to believe that he's real. Both actions result in our underestimation of his power. The modern era has largely made Satan into a mythical bogeyman.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoope
Mikhail Bakunin, one of the intellectual founders of modern anarchism, considers, in his book God and the State, Satan the first freedom fighter and the emancipator of Mankind. From his act of rebellion and by convicing Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, Bakunin argues, Mankind moved from being mere field beasts to being individuals in control of their own lives.
Question: ultimately how much control does one really have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Heteronym
I thought of it more in terms of the ego whispering do that...do that...
What I am understanding from the flow of the conversation is that Satan gave us free will by his act of tricking Adam and Eve to eat the apple. But this is wrong, God gave us free will. If he had not, Adam and Eve would never have been to bite the apple.
"The devil is a gentleman" used to be a common saying throughout Europe.
"Prince" was in fact Satan's rank.
He is called in the Gospel the "Prince of the World" (John 12:31). He is also known as Prince of Darkness, Prince of Death and Prince of Cherubim.
One of the more interesting viewpoints I've found on this topic is Hesse's "Damian", a modern version of the Christian morality play, a representation of the struggle between Good and Evil for the soul of man.Thus he writes "In each individual the spirit has become flesh, in each man the creation suffers, within each one a redeemer is nailed to the cross."
Is this feasible? Well Scripture states "He shall be his own God, knowing good and evil" and "He shall be as God" (Genesis 3:5). And the traditional means by which the Christian Devil or Antichrist is supposed to subvert souls is through cunning argument or false exposition of the Scriptures e.g.Eve.
At the heart of any continuous body of work there is always present a set of assumptions about the nature of man and, more particularly, about the limits of the human. Black & white polar opposites are the "hero" and the "villain", but thats too simplistic. The borderline figure who defines the limits of the human - customarily from the farther side - has been called alternately: the other, the alien, the outsider, the stranger, or if you wish the Devil. Take Shakespeare's Sonnet 144:
Two loves I have of comfort and dispair,
Which like two spirits do suggest me still.
The better angel is a man right fair,
The worser spirit a woman colored ill.
To win me soon to Hell, my female evil Tempteth my better angel from my side,
And would corrupt my saint to be a devil,
----
I guess one angel in another's Hell.
Yet this shall I ne'er know,
But live in doubt Till my bad angel fire my good one out.
Leaving aside, if possible, Shakespeare's attitude to women, another aspect of his work of course revolves around the aspects of witchcraft & magic, mainly the black magic with the witches being the practitioners of Satan. Historians seem to indicate that witches are the remnant of a pre-Christian cult of the Mother, too exclusive to be tolerated by Christianity.
Is the Devil a Freedom Fighter? Yes, he is fighting for his views though one must be circumspect regards his motivation. He is also not called "The Fallen Angel" for nothing. In Scripture again, only one man was able to stare down the Devil without fear in the desert beyond the Jordan.
For remaining earthly souls Christian morality lays more emphasis, not on the acts of man but on their attitudes. Or as Augustine put it "Love, and do what you will."
Honestly my take from a christian mytoglogical point of view is that there is no hero. God clearly is described with attitudes of a tyrant, which wished complete control and unquestioning subjects. However it seems clear that he does this out of good will. He is an entity to ar detached from humans and angels to understand their minds. I mean from a logical and practical point he understands them perfectly and that is his fault, he failed to see that they are not logical and rational creatures, he is simply to high in the starts to know of the gutter. Thus he acts as he knows that from a logical and rational point he is a tyrant but he does this for their own good and prosperity, which would be trough if it were not that the angels and people are not rational.
Satan is a freedom fighter, akin to the partisan fighting the nazi's, and the americans shrugging of monarchy. How ever he comes of not better in this story from a moral point of view. Like god his intentions are good, but he losses himself. I think he is the best demonstration of why freedom is the most dangerous concept known to man, he find untamed freedom and looses his reality in it. he unlike god cannot handle unlimited freedom and soon his original concepts are replaced by delusions, delusions to be a god, delusions that the evil he performs is necessary, delusions that nothing his his fault but it was the others that ruined him.
In conclusion is is a rather misanthropic tale, both parties have the aim to do good, yet due to their limitations or in god's case over limitations, they only understand the world from their perspective and loose focus of the concept of the soul of others, until both are slowly lead to the path of extremism, which makes them both relatively and unintentionally evil. the tale shows the danger of extreme freedom and of extreme repression, it is a tale which teaches to avoid the extremes and that bliss can only be found in the middle grounds.
My interpretation comes from the notion that I read the Bible not as holy scripture but just another work of literature from antiquity. If we look at history we can see that the metaphor of God appears in the church, having good intentions but loosing themselves in tyranny, and oddly enough satan also appears in the church, rebellion against the worldly and the tyranny of pagans and materialism,a and loose morals, which ends with being lost in freedom and having more vice than the finest libertine.
The being you describe as "God" here has nothing to do with the Being described by the Bible. You might wish to re-read the primary source of our understanding of Him a bit more closely because you've clearly missed much of what it had to say about the His character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
Interesting view - though, again, if you had done your research you might have discovered that the Bible is far different from all other "mythologies" from ancient cultures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
If a father knows that matches are dangerous and that a child is liable to play with matches and get burned, a father will do everything to keep the matches away. But what does caring father God do? He puts the matches right in the middle of the garden. Isn't that what cops call entrapment?Quote:
Originally Posted by jersea
The fact that God is omniscient and yet allowed Man to fall is one of those matters that Christians never managed to neatly explain or justify. Either God is not omniscient and so he can't be God, or he's uncaring because he allowed his children to fall, and so we shouldn't put much faith in such a figure. Because a father who stops a child from getting burned is not disrespecting her free will. He's just doing his role.
The figure of Satan is fascinating because, for whatever motives he had, he alloed us to realise our full potential as men, instead of letting us remain in bondage, cared for like farm animals by a totalitarian farmer.
I agree Heteronym that the figure of Satan is fascinating. Once you go beyond the standard character simplistics.
He fell from "pride". But if he were originally a good angel, would he have pride?
I've got the kind of mind that when I hear that Humpty Dumpty fell, I ask myself "Did he fall, or was he pushed?" Alas we will never know.
Personally your remark about (Satan) "he allowed us to realise our full potential as men" is a bit rich. If anyone gave us the freedom it was God through the attribute of free choice. There is one Jesuit school of thought that of the opinion that it is not so much what God commands, as what he allows. Thus he is realistic enough to accept weakness in reality & yet still forgive.
And that act of free choice has been met with complete brutality. The message is clear: think for yourself, be damned! Submit, and you inherit Paradise. Salvation is only possible through bondage, submission, worship and a rejection of everything that makes us human. Can't you see the message of misanthropy inherent in it?
Wait a minute.
Before his fall, Lucifer was the highest of all created intelligences.
In other words, after the Diety himself--(the pronoun is unfortunate because a spirit has no gender, and the pronoun 'itself' refers to an inanimate object, so in English we're stuck with the masculine pronoun because in a conjectural statement we normally don't use a feminine pronoun)--after the Diety himself, Lucifer was the greatest being in all Cosmos.
And he had free will. So he was decieved by his own vanity into thinking he could stage a 'palace coup' and rise above the Deity: this was his mistake and fall. Furthermore, a third of the other created intelligences (spirits or 'angels') followed Lucifer and fell with him. These we now call demons or 'unclean spirits'.
So, what's your question: because Lucifer tried to overthrow the Diety and lost his place for it, the Diety was wrong to put down the rebellion?
No king would survive unless he supresses a palace coup.
"Interesting view - though, again, if you had done your research you might have discovered that the Bible is far different from all other "mythologies" from ancient cultures."
Sorry up break it to you but the Bible uses many stories from other mythologies and integrates them as its own, the entire story of Jesus is pretty much a copy paste of the story of the egyptian God Rah, Im not sure about the spelling there.
Maybe it's you who needs to read closer ?
Well, Satan is the arch-deciever and capable of making any truth look like an imitation of mythos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
The problem is that men with dark minds love to follow the deceptions because it justifies their own sinful ways--or so they think in the convoluted thinking of their own dark minds.
Under that assumption would not Satan's most logical and powerful move be to deceive men into thinking that he is the one God, in which case how do we know that our religion and our god are not Satan's most elaborate and successful deception. There are so many places we can go with this road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebas. Melmoth
Those who perversly seek Satan may be found by him and destroyed by him.
Satan is the destroyer.
In some ways, Satan is a freedom fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
However, I believe that freedom fighters have to choose fight "against" or "agree" on the kind of government that they have at the time rather then to "submit" and "surrender" oneself.
Remember, there have been many supposed "freedom fighters" that are now in the realm of "criminals". What did those "freedom fighters" fight for and what kind of government did they fight against?
Hopefully, I'm not going into the political area here but maybe Satan fought against a "government" that is already a well-rounded system? Maybe Satan thought that he could create a better system and he persuaded some of the people to go with him?
Who is to say that God had a system full of tyranny? We don't know. Perhaps Satan is just one of those psychopath that decided to ruin a perfectly good system just because he was tired of it?
Heteronym
I can in fact see a lot more than you give me credit for. However you have your views & I have my faith and there is not much in the way of a middle ground.
Bear with me if I try it from a different perspective. Have you ever had any deep spiritial moments? I'm talking of something akin, (although fiction in this instance), to Chapter 4 of The Brothers Kaz, where Alyosha feels himself overwhelmed in the presence of his God.
You'd have to better define a deep spiritual moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN
I will try.
Its a feeling of extreme emotion. Not quite fear but awe.
The whole of your existence feels in the presence of a power way beyond what you can imagine.
You feel shaken, tearful & vunerable.
Once finished, there is a tremendous feeling of relief and peace.
Excuse me if I'm not explaining it adequately. Its as emotional as blind rage & anger but at the alternate meridian.
Well Satan is real and we can't deny that.. at the same point we can't make it an excuse for out wrong actions.... We know how evil he is and how he was kicked off Heaven .. and .. and and .. thatlong story that everyone knows..Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
But why are we even questioning such things...
Since when people who disobey are heroes ... I mean its only human thinking; we always see bad boys .. the best.. and we always se the one who raises his voice and beat others as a FREEDOM FIGHTER !!!! OR EVEN HERO.. !!Quote:
Mikhail Bakunin, one of the intellectual founders of modern anarchism, considers, in his book God and the State, Satan the first freedom fighter and the emancipator of Mankind. From his act of rebellion and by convicing Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, Bakunin argues, Mankind moved from being mere field beasts to being individuals in control of their own lives.
why is that.. !
Satan disobeyed the only God , the Creator.. and thought he was better than Adam .. who was created from sand .. while he was made of Fire.. ...
Why don't you look at the point a one who disobeyed God .. and was punished .. and he promised to distroy all the ancestor of Adam .. all the human beings..
Now the only part that i don't get is THE FREEDOM FIGHTER thing . !!!!
How is that possible ?
You're not "breaking" anything to me I've not already heard before, and you're certainly not informing me of any "facts," Alex - you're passing on assumptions and speculations about the origin of the Bible - none of which are provable, by the way. That there are echos of the Bible in other cultures doesn't necessarily mean they were borrowed. The difference between the Bible and mythology is that the people, locations, and events of the Bible continue to be verified by scholarship and archaeology (sp?). Try as you might, you're not finding any evidence of people and events from Greek/Roman/Norse/Celtic/etc mythology anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
As far as the life of Christ, CS Lewis made the point in one of his essays that Christ was the "myth made real" - that Christ was the real life manifestation of the other "harbinger gods" - that other mythologies essentially "foretold" the coming of Christ throught their stories.
As well, since Christ was such a polarizing figure, if his story were false, then there would have been refutations published in response to the gospels because the Jewish leaders were very much invested in disproving his claims of being God. Those refutations do not exist. The problem is that historical documents written by non-Christians (Josephus, for one) mention Christ by name - so, the theory that his story is phony holds no water.
Thanks for the recommendation, but I'm pretty good with my reading, thanks.