Are humans special or are we nothing more the mere rabbits

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10-19-2006, 10:51 PM
Orionsbelt

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

How can you be sure that animals have no sense of an “ideal”? If they had an “ideal”, would the utter disparity between their faculties and ours play any part?

I’d like to see a bear launch a satellite. Or solve a calculus problem. Or ponder its own existence. Bears are not very clever at all. What you’ve described is an evolutionary adaptation, a product of years and years of instinct built up, I’d say.

Well If you start with the notion that men lived in caves and bears lived in caves. Only one has imagined an improvement (idealized) and moved into new digs. So I think it is both.

I had a dog once that was running away from me. He ran to the edge of the house turned the corner and then peaked back around to watch what I was doing. I thought I would be clever and circle the house in the other direction. When I got to the corner and peaked around the dog was gone. When I turned around in the direction that I had come the dog was peaking at me. So there is some degree of cognition at work. This isn't instinct in my opinion. This is an evaluation and acting on it.

However, as has been pointed out so many times already bears and other animals completely lack ambition.;) There is no visible sign of improvement. The same can be said of the great apes who are behavioraly very similar to us. So lets say another animal could imagine some improvement in comfort. It would be sensible to act on it. So I can only conclude that the ability to imagine some new state isn't present. :bawling:

However, so now the question becomes how special is this feature? Does it represent a pinnicle. If it does how so? And then further so what? :brow:

Is the whole rank issue is somewhat petty given the fact that in a billion stars and planets within sight we are the only known spot to have developed any kind of animal? So on the grand scale of amazement, the differance may be somewhat lost on outsiders. Having introduced yourself as the representative peak of the planet, what would you say to the delegation from Outland?
10-19-2006, 11:00 PM
miss tenderness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

As Mawlana Jalal-Ad Din Rumi said; "no matter how much you know, they will understand from what you say as much as they know".

Interesting,wise saying,though not applicable in all situation. May I be enlightene more about Jalal Adin Rumi,Turk?I mean his name is not weird but I can’t figure out who exactly is he ?he won my interest. I'll be grateful if u send me a brief information concerning him or direct me to a site,thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuppajoe

Dismissing my entire argument because I was born in 1987 is friendly?

Though all of your argument does not make sense to me,Cupp,still your argument should not be dismissed just because of your age. I mean who knows,maybe someone who's younger beats with the knowledge he has, many people older than him. We should judge according to the argument and proofs stated ,not someone's age.
10-19-2006, 11:05 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orionsbelt

Well If you start with the notion that men lived in caves and bears lived in caves. Only one has imagined an improvement (idealized) and moved into new digs. So I think it is both.

I had a dog once that was running away from me. He ran to the edge of the house turned the corner and then peaked back around to watch what I was doing. I thought I would be clever and circle the house in the other direction. When I got to the corner and peaked around the dog was gone. When I turned around in the direction that I had come the dog was peaking at me. So there is some degree of cognition at work. This isn't instinct in my opinion. This is an evaluation and acting on it.

However, as has been pointed out so many times already bears and other animals completely lack ambition.;) There is no visible sign of improvement. The same can be said of the great apes who are behavioraly very similar to us. So lets say another animal could imagine some improvement in comfort. It would be sensible to act on it. So I can only conclude that the ability to imagine some new state isn't present. :bawling:

However, so now the question becomes how special is this feature? Does it represent a pinnicle. If it does how so? And then further so what? :brow:

You provided a nice comparison. Yes, I've noticed cognition in my dogs too. But they have no ability to build on it. In 13 million years, the wolf and dog haven't orgainzed their lives in any different way.

Side note: As I type this my dog Brandi is laying comfortably on my couch in my living room in my heated home. Perhaps they are not so dumb after all.;) :D
10-20-2006, 04:26 AM
Taliesin

So, are you claiming that human race is of greater worth than animals because they have got all these gadgets that make life easier, or have we misunderstood you?

Logically thinking, then one should think the more technologically developed a society or culture is, the better it is, no? So French should be worth more than the Sami, the English worth more than the Apachi, the Greeks worth more than the Ainu?
We really don't think so. Right, the Sami didn't invent a lot of technological gadgets (although, their folklore is a marvel) but does it make them inferior?
They just don't need them. What's wrong with that?

Similarly, the animals don't need to launch a rocket to outer space or solve calculus problems. They can get by without these things and they do get by. Are they worse than us because they don't have the need?

Besides, our intellect is also causing the danger of making humankind a short-lived species. There is a good chance that humankind will go extinct much sooner than other strong species normallly do. Live fast, die young, leave a... um.... not-so-good-looking remains?
10-20-2006, 05:05 AM
Logos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Side note: As I type this my dog Brandi is laying comfortably on my couch in my living room in my heated home. Perhaps they are not so dumb after all.;) :D

Domesticated beasts are at our mercy and don't have much choice when they are held captive by us, you'd be surprised how many animals will choose to run away from their 'masters' if given that ultimate freedom :D
10-20-2006, 05:56 AM
Nightshade

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitchhiker

So compared to him we are ants and if we are ants does this higher being have any respect for us or with his great knowledge does he just look down and luagh. There is the theory or question or just whatever you want to call it. It is NOT ASKING IF WE ARE JUST SIMPLE ANIMALS!!!!!!!

And thats an interesting point once its out there/here for reinterpritation does it actually matter what the authours intention was?
10-20-2006, 07:51 AM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taliesin

So, are you claiming that human race is of greater worth than animals because they have got all these gadgets that make life easier, or have we misunderstood you?

I never mentioned worth in any of my posts. My single point in all of this is that humans are not animals but a species apart based on very simple observations. No animal comes close in doing what humans do.
10-20-2006, 07:53 AM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logos

Domesticated beasts are at our mercy and don't have much choice when they are held captive by us, you'd be surprised how many animals will choose to run away from their 'masters' if given that ultimate freedom :D

Not my Brandi. She knows a good thing when she sees it. :D :D
10-20-2006, 12:13 PM
Turk

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

Dismissing my entire argument because I was born in 1987 is friendly?

I am not dismissing your arguments just because your age, i dismiss your arguments becasue i don't think they are sensible to me. Without knowing essence and arguments of true religion, without knowing relation between historical events and philosophy at the background of historical events you can still make comments, and those comments can be logical, becasue everyone has a brain and everyone can think, but thinking without knowledge is like swimming in a fish pool. Every fish thinks he's in a ocean without knowing what's ocean. And btw as i can see yet now nobody made any reasonable comments about moral, good and evil etc. All i can see is just demagogic comments.

At the end i would like to say i made comment about your age but it's not becasue something about you, it's because me, personally i don't like to argue with so young or very old people because of some reasons. Although i didn't say you shouldn't make comments, i just said you should be a little calm and controlled.
10-20-2006, 12:23 PM
Turk

Quote:

Originally Posted by miss tenderness

Interesting,wise saying,though not applicable in all situation. May I be enlightene more about Jalal Adin Rumi,Turk?I mean his name is not weird but I can’t figure out who exactly is he ?he won my interest. I'll be grateful if u send me a brief information concerning him or direct me to a site,thanks.

Mawlana Jalal-Ad Din Rumi is a great Sufi philosopher. His book Mesnevi is the greatest book i've ever read and he's the wisest poet/philosopher, almost every sentence of his books is full of wisery. I'll add a link for you, about his works and biography;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalal_ad-Din_Muhammad_Rumi

You can find links to his works at the bottom of that article, but if you going to read him i advice you to be careful and thoughtful. Because if you don't read careful it may just seem like some fables and eastern stories to you.

http://www.mevlana.ws/ Here's one more...
10-20-2006, 12:46 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Mawlana Jalal-Ad Din Rumi is a great Sufi philosopher. His book Mesnevi is the greatest book i've ever read and he's the wisest poet/philosopher, almost every sentence of his books is full of wisery. I'll add a link for you, about his works and biography;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalal_ad-Din_Muhammad_Rumi

You can find links to his works at the bottom of that article, but if you going to read him i advice you to be careful and thoughtful. Because if you don't read careful it may just seem like some fables and eastern stories to you.

http://www.mevlana.ws/ Here's one more...

Thanks Turk. I found the wikipedia site very interesting.
10-20-2006, 01:00 PM
Turk

You'r welcome.
10-20-2006, 02:02 PM
miss tenderness

I guessesd that Jalal Aldeen was a Sufi leader ,that's why I asked you:one to read about him more and second to make sure about my guessing. I do not agree with the sufi ways . I've nt read what's in the links but I promise I'll do(carefully as u recommended),and feed you back ,Turk.,thanks alot.
10-20-2006, 03:56 PM
miss tenderness

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitchhiker

If you believe in a higher being then you must also believe that each individual here is nothing more then a rabbit or even an ant when compared to his inteligence and his just over whelming greatness. So there for no matter what all we have created individually we are little more then nothing compared to him (or she or it or what ever it may be budda, god, satan, ahlai, what ever it doesn't really matter) we are but one ant in his ant farm.

Wait,wait..
What's up boy!we're but mere animals compared to God!!!I'm an animal compared to God. Your words failed you here. If you want to say that"hey people,God is the greatest and the most Omnipotent and we're not but mere one kind of His grand creations" then I totally join you. But saying that we are animals compared to Him is such a ……..dunno what to say.(plz feed me back about this point lest I misunderstood you,thanks). For me, Yes I believe in my God(Allah ,the most Gracious the most Merciful) . I believe He creates all what my eyes meet. I fear Him and obey His orders. I sense His greatness wherever I go,but I'm not an ANIMAL. In fact, Allah,swt, tells us in the Holy Quran that you son of Adam are amongst my vast creation but I've honor you with specialities that are not given to any of my creation. Allah,swt,ennobles me as a human,thus , He sends the messengers and sends down the messages to people(note that they are not for animals or plants but for you son of Adam(humans)because you are given abilities that are not given to any of His other creation. I'm not a rabbit compared to God. I'm one of God's great creation and I'm so proud that he honored me and made me human and asked me to glorify Him .
hope my point was clear...
10-20-2006, 05:53 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

I am not dismissing your arguments just because your age, i dismiss your arguments becasue i don't think they are sensible to me. Without knowing essence and arguments of true religion, without knowing relation between historical events and philosophy at the background of historical events you can still make comments, and those comments can be logical, becasue everyone has a brain and everyone can think, but thinking without knowledge is like swimming in a fish pool.

What makes you think I'm uneducated in those fields? I was raised Catholic and am a student of history in college, I think I know at least a few things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

At the end i would like to say i made comment about your age but it's not becasue something about you, it's because me, personally i don't like to argue with so young or very old people because of some reasons. Although i didn't say you shouldn't make comments, i just said you should be a little calm and controlled.

If you don't want to argue with me then don't. I think I'm being fairly calm, considering that in the course of this conversation I've been called a jackass, a nazi, an amoral hypocrite, uneducated and too young to possibly have a valid argument. To be perfectly frank, I could do without that kind of 'argument'.
10-20-2006, 06:55 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by miss tenderness

Wait,wait..
What's up boy!we're but mere animals compared to God!!!I'm an animal compared to God. Your words failed you here. If you want to say that"hey people,God is the greatest and the most Omnipotent and we're not but mere one kind of His grand creations" then I totally join you. But saying that we are animals compared to Him is such a ……..dunno what to say.(plz feed me back about this point lest I misunderstood you,thanks). For me, Yes I believe in my God(Allah ,the most Gracious the most Merciful) . I believe He creates all what my eyes meet. I fear Him and obey His orders. I sense His greatness wherever I go,but I'm not an ANIMAL. In fact, Allah,swt, tells us in the Holy Quran that you son of Adam are amongst my vast creation but I've honor you with specialities that are not given to any of my creation. Allah,swt,ennobles me as a human,thus , He sends the messengers and sends down the messages to people(note that they are not for animals or plants but for you son of Adam(humans)because you are given abilities that are not given to any of His other creation. I'm not a rabbit compared to God. I'm one of God's great creation and I'm so proud that he honored me and made me human and asked me to glorify Him .
hope my point was clear...

I've never heard what hitchiker is putting forth. Actually religious thought usually has a hiearchy where God is on top, perhaps angels next, man follows, and then animals below. Religious thought (at least Christianity which is the only one I'm qualified to speak about) typically separates man and anmals, and man is considered to be in God's image.
10-21-2006, 06:11 PM
Nightshade

You know I think I get what hes saying -- hope this is the right track, maybe what you needed was a differant animal as an analogy like sheep for example.
Do you mean that a rabbit -should a human take intrest has no power at all over its life we get to eat it, starve it feed it, lock it up in a dirty little cage, or lavish thousands of pounds on really expensive pet accessories.
So if Im on the right track basically the question is we have no more power than the rabbit, or sheep and are simply led pushed/ forced into our lives from birth till death and beyond.

I dont belive that. I belive that which sets us apart from animals and Angels is our ability to choose. All Gods creations on our earth ( including inanimate objects) apart from humans worship God in their very exsitance but not us as we get to choose it which is why we are the 'inheritors' of earth which is basically one big long series of tiny tests that add up.

And I bet this makes absaloutly no sense to anyone but me...miss T maybe you can explain it better what Im trying to get into is the 'zeinat hayat el dunyah' and 'the sukhar lukm' ayyahs

EDIT: does this make more sense??? http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=19619&page=8
if not I pretty much give up.. you need to live inside my head to understand me.
:D:D
10-21-2006, 11:04 PM
ShoutGrace

Quote:

Last edited : 10-19-2006 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Flaming

Virgil, I can't help it, you make me laugh. :D :thumbs_up

Quote:

Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

Just jokes, man, just jokes.

:lol: Ah, it seems clear now. Thanks for explaining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

Well one could say that humans are better because we've achieved civilization and wars and New York and so on, but that's hardly an objective critera. We're inventing those criteria because it's what we're good at.

I’m not saying that humans are better because of the achievements that they’ve produced (although I can imagine that I haven’t been clear thus far), I’m saying that mankind is of a different class than the rest of creation because of their special attributes, characteristics, and abilities (which of course enable them to achieve).

The capacity to achieve what we have is what stands human kind apart. Why do I choose this criteria? From examining the characteristics of life on this planet, the ones that humans possess are distinct from all the rest.

Your last sentence is interesting from the perspective that Kurtz tried to put forth, i.e. the human superiority complex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

You can either find one or become apathetic, and apathy does no good to anybody.

That’s something I can appreciate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Nightshade”

am having what before PC would be called a 'blond' moment can you explain what that means I was going to PM you but thats too much bother.

It is still called a blond moment, Nightshade. Let come what may.

So far I think I’ve managed to argue without letting theism or atheism play a part.

As a theist I am obligated to believe that people have souls and that they are divinely originated. They are morally capable agents created in God’s very image for a reason. That makes them superior to tapeworms, chimpanzees, and e-coli.

I think it has been acknowledged, however, that even given atheism, human beings are “special” regarding their placement in the animal kingdom. The original question was, by the way, “Are human beings special or are we nothing more than mere rabbits.” Doesn’t distinguish between animals, folks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Nightshade”

why?

I find the ability to reason “superior” to the ability to breathe underwater because it comes from the mind – breathing underwater is nothing more than a physical attribute (that humans have found a way to master, by the way, as shown above). The fact that the fish’s main distinction is the ownership of gills is less “impressive” than the human ownership of reason (and this is an entirely personal opinion).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightshade

well Ill admit that Ill also admit that as a muslim my beliefs point me in he dirrection of humans while not being supirior are the master race,

I’m confused here, please help explicate for me. How can humans be the ‘master race’ and yet not be ‘superior’? Maybe I’m misunderstanding the definitions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Do you mean that a rabbit -should a human take intrest has no power at all over its life we get to eat it, starve it feed it, lock it up in a dirty little cage, or lavish thousands of pounds on really expensive pet accessories.

This is quirky, given the human-rabbit comparison, because humans do all these things to other humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Nightshade”

, but then agan I also belive that all animals have sould and are capable and do in fat worship God.

This is the question that arises out of my beliefs above, that humans are created in God’s image, and have souls. Why then it seems clear that they are ‘superior’ to animals (although this implies that animals do not have souls). This is a spiritual issue that I haven’t the time or inclination to explore, though it might be worthwhile. I just haven’t had occasion to go about deciding for myself if animals have souls. Though Virgil said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Virgil”

Actually religious thought usually has a hiearchy where God is on top, perhaps angels next, man follows, and then animals below. Religious thought (at least Christianity which is the only one I'm qualified to speak about) typically separates man and anmals, and man is considered to be in God's image.

That’s fine for me, I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Virgil”

All that for nothing? What? Do you realize how you got people's passions up?

I guess we’ve made this thread what we want it to be, regardless of the opening poster’s intent. That, however, is the risk when participating in a thread whose purpose isn’t clearly communicated, I guess. I like the turn this thread has taken anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightshade

And thats an interesting point once its out there/here for reinterpritation does it actually matter what the authours intention was?

Not to me it doesn’t.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Turk”

i dismiss your arguments becasue i don't think they are sensible to me.

cuppajoe_9's posts are of a much higher quality than some of the others on this forum (mine probably included). Over time you come to find that you appreciate a person actually reading your posts and taking the time to respond thoughtfully to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

I think I'm being fairly calm, considering that in the course of this conversation I've been called a jackass, a nazi, an amoral hypocrite, uneducated and too young to possibly have a valid argument.

I wasn't the perpetrator of any of those, was I? ;) :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Orionsbelt”

However, so now the question becomes how special is this feature? And then further so what?

I don’t think these questions really matter (given atheism). If we are purely animals, different in degree but not ultimately in kind from every other living thing, then what does the speciality of these features matter? We can observe them and manipulate them.

“So what?” I can’t see that there is any “So what.” Read some good books that are available to you because of it (and do so in a “clean, well lighted place”). Be observant of it and contemplate how we are the way we are.

Given theism, then I think it provides a grounds for observing a reflection of the divine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Orionsbelt”

Having introduced yourself as the representative peak of the planet, what would you say to the delegation from Outland?

I’d ask how long I’d been dreaming, and if it was alright if I woke up. ;)
10-21-2006, 11:21 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

I’m saying that mankind is of a different class than the rest of creation because of their special attributes, characteristics, and abilities (which of course enable them to achieve).

The capacity to achieve what we have is what stands human kind apart. Why do I choose this criteria? From examining the characteristics of life on this planet, the ones that humans possess are distinct from all the rest.

There's no denying that we're unique, I agree, and that is something to be proud of, but I'm still irritated by said 'human superiority complex'. I think we're basically in agreement, just coming at it from different angles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightshade

am having what before PC would be called a 'blond' moment can you explain what that means I was going to PM you but thats too much bother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

It is still called a blond moment, Nightshade. Let come what may.

Interesting that the blonde joke was, I believe, originally developed as a less offensive alternative to the racist joke, probably on the grounds that nobody could reasonably believe that blondes are actually less intelligent than anybody else. In conclusion: political correctness is ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

This is quirky, given the human-rabbit comparison, because humans do all these things to other humans.

Oh the symbolism!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

cuppajoe_9's posts are of a much higher quality than some of the others on this forum (mine probably included). Over time you come to find that you appreciate a person actually reading your posts and taking the time to respond thoughtfully to them.

You make me blush.
10-22-2006, 05:52 AM
Pensive

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitchhiker

I wonder if man is something special in this world or are we just merely as special as rabbits or any other animal for that. What I am saying, is man special in the way are we able to truely concieve the meaning of life or are we just ignorant for thinking that we can. The rabbit I am talking about is the simpale creature that goes through life wanting nothing more then to reporduce and just go through life eating and having sex eating and having sex. No questions about life no thoughts or evening careing to think about itor better yet they know that they have no ablilty to understand the conseption of life so why insult who ever started it by thinking they can. So what are we, are we special by haveing the ability to undestand life or are we stupid for even thinking we can are we jsut as important as rabbits.

I woke up early in the morning. I go to school. I talk with friends. I come home and eat meal. Then, I start browsing this forum. After this, I do some other activities like having discussion with my grandfather or doing homeworks and stuff. That's my life. That's how I am spending it. That's my concept of life. I am special. My friend's cat is special. My friend is special as well. The monkey I saw in the zoo last year was oh-so-special. So, why not take it that everyone is special? Different in a way or other so special. Everyone knows the "concept of life", that's another thing that their judgement can be different from us. If Rabbits haven't discovered nuclear power or stuff, it doesn't make them less special, or it doesn't prove that "they haven't got the concept of life."
10-22-2006, 05:52 AM
Taliesin

As far We can see, there have been these basic thoughts concerning the opinion that human beings are not animals:

1) religious. God made men in his image and so they are not animals. Can't argue that. Faith is a thing that stands away from logic.

2) The fact that we're special and unique. Yes, we are. We see a problem of defining here.

Quote:

American Heritage Dictionary states that an animal is 'A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure.'. If we agree on this definition, then, no doubt, we are animals.

However, the same dictionary also adds that an animal can be 'An animal organism other than a human, especially a mammal.' So it seems like we are not the only ones who are struggling to decide whether we are animals or not.
10-22-2006, 12:33 PM
Turk

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

What makes you think I'm uneducated in those fields? I was raised Catholic and am a student of history in college, I think I know at least a few things.

If you don't want to argue with me then don't. I think I'm being fairly calm, considering that in the course of this conversation I've been called a jackass, a nazi, an amoral hypocrite, uneducated and too young to possibly have a valid argument. To be perfectly frank, I could do without that kind of 'argument'.

Your answers make me think you doesn't have enough knowledge about religion and history. And raising as Catholic doesn't mean understanding religion even Catholicism, everyone borns in a society and everyone raised in a culture, but raising in a Catholic or Muslim or Buddhist society doesn't mean you know/understand essence of those religions. And i don't have knowledge about specialities of your history class and it's level since everyone get education almost everyone has history classes in their education life and yeah i didn't say you don't know anything, i'm sure you know a few things i just said you don't know enough.

"If you don't want to argue with me then don't" : reason is not your personality as i explained, i don't like to argue with very young or very old people because of some other reasons. And as i know i didn't call you Nazi, uneducated or jackass, i just told you'r too young and don't know enough.

Quote:

cuppajoe_9's posts are of a much higher quality than some of the others on this forum (mine probably included). Over time you come to find that you appreciate a person actually reading your posts and taking the time to respond thoughtfully to them.

I don't like to repeat my words, but as i told; i didn'T say he has no thoughts, as everyone he has thoughts too and i told it. But without enough knowledge about a specific subject i think it's almost impossible to reach correct thoughts.

From this point i'll try to sa some things i think;

Virgil; i'm not sure about Christianity, because i didn't research about this question in Christianity, but in İslam human is supreme than angels, because according to İslam God give us ability to choose, free will. But angels doesn't have free will that's why he ordered angels to prostrate in front of human and show him respect you know the last part i think. Satan rejected this because of his arrogance (though some İslamic scholars have different thoughts about Satan's manner, according to them Satan was so faithful and that's why didn't want to pray prostrate to man, and that was a "blind" faith, that make him forget obeying orders of God is true faith. An interesting claim. Although this kind of faith also includes arrogance, i think those scholars misses this weak part of their argument).

Back to main subject, human is supreme than animal not because we did nuclear plant. This point of view just fits to materialist-scientisist point of view of western people. So technology makes us more "supreme" than others? Bravo. While Chinese people much "civilized" than Europeans, Brittania invaded their lands and massacred thousands of Chinese. Well now can we say English was supreme than Chinese just because they had stronger ships and cannons? Our humanity and values make us higher being than an animal. Not our technology.

We can try to understand things in universe, we can understand each other's sorrow, happiness, peace etc. We can love, animals can't. For God's sake, i would like to ask people who claim we are animals; didn't you ever fell in love with someone without thinking sex?

Well at the last word i would like to clarify one more thing.

Now we think similar in one point. People who uses technology to kill others nothing but bunch of wild wolves. People who never loved a woman or guy without thinking sex are just bunch of lustful pigs. People who never thinks about others but live for eating, fun and enjoy are just bunch of monkeys, dogs and sheeps. I agree with you, some people can be animal. But that doesn't mean ideal man.
10-22-2006, 02:31 PM
ShoutGrace

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Taliesin”

As far We can see, there have been these basic thoughts concerning the opinion that human beings are not animals:

1) religious. God made men in his image and so they are not animals. Can't argue that. Faith is a thing that stands away from logic.

This aspect has just come into play. The majority of the thread was conducted without cognizance of theistic issues, and it worked great that way, as far as I can tell. Besides which, your summation of the "religious" side of it is lacking much, I'm afraid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Taliesin”

2) The fact that we're special and unique. Yes, we are. We see a problem of defining here.

We have several facts. One is the opening question:

“Are humans special or are we nothing more the mere rabbits?”

We have the definition of 'special':

- Distinguished by some unusual quality.

- Of a distinct or particular kind or character.
- Being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain.

The answer seems clear to me, and I think we've all agreed on the answer. Is there anything wrong with the following, besides my grammar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

It doesn't matter how many great works of literature or amazing sculptures or breathtaking temples we build, we will still be multicellular organisms of the kingdom Animalia.

Of course we are, and of course we are infinitely different than the rest of the organisms represented there.

Disregarding theistic issues, can't we agree that humans are “special” in comparison to the rest of life on this planet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

I think we're basically in agreement, just coming at it from different angles.

Word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

You make me blush.

We'll see how long that lasts. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pensive

I woke up early in the morning. I go to school. I talk with friends. I come home and eat meal. Then, I start browsing this forum. After this, I do some other activities like having discussion with my grandfather or doing homeworks and stuff. That's my life. That's how I am spending it. That's my concept of life. I am special. My friend's cat is special. My friend is special as well. The monkey I saw in the zoo last year was oh-so-special. So, why not take it that everyone is special? Different in a way or other so special. Everyone knows the "concept of life", that's another thing that their judgement can be different from us. If Rabbits haven't discovered nuclear power or stuff, it doesn't make them less special, or it doesn't prove that "they haven't got the concept of life."

Hi Pensive! :banana:

What definition of 'special' are you using?

p.s. I agree, you're special. :D
10-22-2006, 03:28 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Your answers make me think you doesn't have enough knowledge about religion and history. And raising as Catholic doesn't mean understanding religion even Catholicism, everyone borns in a society and everyone raised in a culture, but raising in a Catholic or Muslim or Buddhist society doesn't mean you know/understand essence of those religions.

Well then you're just going to have to take my word for it aren't you? I don't claim any experise, but I understand religion and have a reasonable outline of history. I don't actually recall stating anything whatsoever about history onn this thread, so I have no idea where you're pulling this from. I have some essays about the English Civil War you can read if you don't believe me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

And as i know i didn't call you Nazi, uneducated or jackass, i just told you'r too young and don't know enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

...And your point of view is not so different than Nazi point of view...

The jackass line was Virgil's. Anyway...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Back to main subject, human is supreme than animal not because we did nuclear plant. This point of view just fits to materialist-scientisist point of view of western people.

Look brah, materialism (in the sense that I assume you are using it) is not the dominant philosophy in the western world. Fully half of the materialists in my city, for example, moved to Edmonton last year. She's a nice girl. Anyway, you are putting words into my mouth (and the mouthes of my fellow materialists). I never said that humans are in any way "supreme", technology or no. In fact, I have been vigorously opposing this viewpoint for the entire thread, as I remember it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

We can try to understand things in universe, we can understand each other's sorrow, happiness, peace etc. We can love, animals can't.

That last point is debatable (and it's not a debate I'm particularly interested in having, if nobody minds), but as I said, we're certainly unique.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

For God's sake, i would like to ask people who claim we are animals; didn't you ever fell in love with someone without thinking sex?

Can't say I ever fallen in love with someone without that thought at least crossing my mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Now we think similar in one point. People who uses technology to kill others nothing but bunch of wild wolves. People who never loved a woman or guy without thinking sex are just bunch of lustful pigs.

Well I (and, I imagine, Virgil) take issue with the wolf imagery. Wolves do not, despite their reputation, go around killing things for no reason. They hunt for food, and when they have enough food they stop hunting. This is not because of any compassion or understanding of the balance of nature, or any such garbage, it's simply because hunting when you already have food is a waste of time and time is a very valuable comodity in the arcitic. As a pacifist, however, I agree with the statement.

I cannot agree with your second sentence whatsoever. There is nothing wrong with sex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

agree with you, some people can be animal. But that doesn't mean ideal man.

That's not at all what I have been saying, and I think you know it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

Disregarding theistic issues, can't we agree that humans are “special” in comparison to the rest of life on this planet?

Sure can (except for the part about 'infinitely').
10-22-2006, 04:25 PM
Turk

Quote:

Well then you're just going to have to take my word for it aren't you? I don't claim any experise, but I understand religion and have a reasonable outline of history. I don't actually recall stating anything whatsoever about history onn this thread, so I have no idea where you're pulling this from. I have some essays about the English Civil War you can read if you don't believe me.

Well, then we understand it differen from each other. I was the first one who mentioned about history in this thread i guess. It's because of subject, this question is not just a simple question according to me. To understand something important about man we have to look history, philosophy and religion. And i believe your word, why wouldn't i?

I still say i just called you too young and that's truth i think. Having a common thought-similarity with Nazis about a specific subject doesn't mean being Nazi. Nazis and Communist had many common parts, both two regime affected from Materialism and Darwinism. But both two was different than each other. So as result i didn't call you uneducated or Nazi.

Quote:

Look brah, materialism (in the sense that I assume you are using it) is not the dominant philosophy in the western world. Fully half of the materialists in my city, for example, moved to Edmonton last year. She's a nice girl. Anyway, you are putting words into my mouth (and the mouthes of my fellow materialists). I never said that humans are in any way "supreme", technology or no. In fact, I have been vigorously opposing this viewpoint for the entire thread, as I remember it.

As i see Materialism is dominant philosophy in western world. In a Capitalist world Materialism have to be dominant philosophy, because true goals of religion completely opposite of Capitalism, first of all while Capitalism is a waste economy religions bans to waste. In this point i would like to tell that Materialism can be in a religion too, so if a religion changed by worldy goals of politicians, clergy class or anything that religion is not a true religion anymore. So even some of the men who's lookin like a believer can have Materialist thoughts (without realizing it) at their background since they grown up in a Capitalist society.

Quote:

Back to main subject, human is supreme than animal not because we did nuclear plant. This point of view just fits to materialist-scientisist point of view of western people.

And this wasn't for you, read posts before my post.

Shortly 1-2 things more to clarify; wolf is my favorite animal and i appreciate wolves, wolf is the maybe most smart hunter of animal world, but as you know wolf is symbol of wild so i used those animals as metaphor. :) And there's nothing wrong with sex. But i meant something different there...
10-22-2006, 04:44 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Nazis and Communist had many common parts, both two regime affected from Materialism and Darwinism.

Hitler was a Catholic (though obviously not a very good one) and Stalin was a Lamarkian. In other words: no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

As i see Materialism is dominant philosophy in western world. In a Capitalist world Materialism have to be dominant philosophy, because true goals of religion completely opposite of Capitalism.

I'm very very very unclear on why you think capitalism and materialism are realated, unless you are using both definitions of the word 'materialism' simultaneously. The most laissez-faire country in the world has only ever had protestants as leaders, with the exception of George Washington (probably a deist) and JFK (a Catholic). Some people (Max Weber) think that capitalism is an ideology born of protestantism. In fact, it seems to me that the most heavily atheistic western countries, such as Sweden and Iceland, tend to be the most socialist. I, by the way, am both a materialist and a socialist.
10-22-2006, 04:53 PM
Turk

Quote:

Hitler was a Catholic (though obviously not a very good one) and Stalin was a Lamarkian. In other words: no.

And Marks was a Jewish while Nietzsche was a Protestant.

Quote:

I'm very very very unclear on why you think capitalism and materialism are realated, unless you are using both definitions of the word 'materialism' simultaneously. The most laissez-faire country in the world has only ever had protestants as leaders, with the exception of George Washington (probably a deist) and JFK (a Catholic). Some people (Max Weber) think that capitalism is an ideology born of protestantism. In fact, it seems to me that the most heavily atheistic western countries, such as Sweden and Iceland, tend to be the most socialist.

Materialism and Capitalism are completely related. Like two brothers.

And yeah about Scandinavian countries. Sweden is not Socialist but Swedish state is a social state, but if there wouldn't be Volvo, Scania or Ikea there wouldn't be "most" social state of the world too. Think about it.
10-22-2006, 05:04 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

And Marks was a Jewish while Nietzsche was a Protestant.

Marx and Neitzche renounced their religions, Hitler never did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Materialism and Capitalism are completely related. Like two brothers.

Why do you think that? Give some evidence. Adam Smith was hardly a materialist, but Karl Marx sure was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

And yeah about Scandinavian countries. Sweden is not Socialist but Swedish state is a social state

Yes, Sweden has a democratic socialist government, one of the most left-wing in the world (before the last election, anyway). It runs mostly on private ownership, but there is a strong policy towards correcting social inequality. And many are atheists.
10-22-2006, 07:02 PM
miss tenderness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naightshade

And I bet this makes absaloutly no sense to anyone but me...miss T maybe you can explain it better what Im trying to get into is the 'zeinat hayat el dunyah' and 'the sukhar lukm' ayahs

Opps! Sorry I did n't see this earlier: ,I'll be very very glad to help,the thing is: I did n't get what you want not I understand what you're reffering to by stating these ayyas will you please enlighten me more about thses two points in PM? Thanks for the confidence,night .

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

Quote:
Originally Posted by “Virgil”
All that for nothing? What? Do you realize how you got people's passions up?

I guess we’ve made this thread what we want it to be, regardless of the opening poster’s intent. That, however, is the risk when participating in a thread whose purpose isn’t clearly communicated, I guess. I like the turn this thread has taken anyway.

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Your answers make me think you doesn't have enough knowledge about religion and history. And raising as Catholic doesn't mean understanding religion even Catholicism, everyone borns in a society and everyone raised in a culture, but raising in a Catholic or Muslim or Buddhist society doesn't mean you know/understand essence of those religions. And i don't have knowledge about specialities of your history class and it's level since everyone get education almost everyone has history classes in their education life and yeah i didn't say you don't know anything, i'm sure you know a few things i just said you don't know enough.

I hate to open or interfere in such useless arguments but Turk you can't judge people and understamates their standard of knowledge! I mean come on!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Virgil; i'm not sure about Christianity, because i didn't research about this question in Christianity, but in İslam human is supreme than angels, because according to İslam God give us ability to choose, free will.

Are all human above angels or just those who have great great faith and when they sin they ask forgiveness..I'll check on this point more inshallah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Satan rejected this because of his arrogance (though some İslamic scholars have different thoughts about Satan's manner, according to them Satan was so faithful and that's why didn't want to pray prostrate to man, and that was a "blind" faith, that make him forget obeying orders of God is true faith. An interesting claim. Although this kind of faith also includes arrogance, i think those scholars misses this weak part of their argument).

If Satan is that much faithful ,then how he disobey his Creator??if he is faithful ,as some scholars think, then he would've obeyed his God without arguing! Do those Thinkers know that he was fired from Heaven because of his disobedience.
Basically, he did not obey coz of his arrogance, it’s stated in the holy Quran, so this subject is decided to me. Allah,swt, knows best.

We're getting hot in here,aren't we?:D ….
10-22-2006, 07:13 PM
Nightshade

Hitler was catholic ? I thought he was jewish, ahh well we live and learn anyway onwards and upwards as they say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

I’m confused here, please help explicate for me. How can humans be the ‘master race’ and yet not be ‘superior’? Maybe I’m misunderstanding the definitions.

Ill admit my explaining could be clearer but the thing is I get it but not sur ei can explain it.
ok here it goes, as a muslim I belive God created everything and when he created adam, he said to the angels that he was cretaing a khalifa- foller/inheritor ruler in stead of , you know the royalty theory where in the kings were appoited by God? well basically that idea but all the human race is. And basically as you would the angels objected on the grounds that wellthis new creature would destroy the beautiful earth and that they worshipped god coonstatly. Anyway so Man was given the earth and everything on it serves 'the human exsistance' in a bid to help us in this life that is a test and to show us the glory of God etc etc. Hence the master race.
But not the supirior race because although we ( and the Jin) have the one thing no other creation has ( the will to choose the worship of god) everything in the heavens and earth living and otherwise 'sabahs' (errr prays/worships/? somthing like that) so how could we be suprior? Its like comparing apples and oranges canyt be done were all special but differant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

. Satan rejected this because of his arrogance (though some İslamic scholars have different thoughts about Satan's manner, according to them Satan was so faithful and that's why didn't want to pray prostrate to man, and that was a "blind" faith, that make him forget obeying orders of God is true faith. An interesting claim. Although this kind of faith also includes arrogance, i think those scholars misses this weak part of their argument).
.

Now thats one I havent heard, but what do they say about 'aba wastkbar wa kana min el kafireen?' pretty clear that I think.

:nod:
10-22-2006, 07:30 PM
Nightshade

Quote:

Originally Posted by miss tenderness

Opps! Sorry I did n't see this earlier: ,I'll be very very glad to help,the thing is: I did n't get what you want not I understand what you're reffering to by stating these ayyas will you please enlighten me more about thses two points in PM? Thanks for the confidence,night .

thanks anyway Id forgotten Id posted that and had another stab at it in the post just below yours ( simultanious posting *sigh*

Quote:

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:

ditto

Quote:

I hate to open or interfere in such useless arguments but Turk you can't judge people and understamates their standard of knowledge! I mean come on!

ditto

Quote:

If Satan is that much faithful ,then how he disobey his Creator??if he is faithful ,as some scholars think, then he would've obeyed his God without arguing! Do those Thinkers know that he was fired from Heaven because of his disobedience.
Basically, he did not obey coz of his arrogance, it’s stated in the holy Quran, so this subject is decided to me. Allah,swt, knows best.

We're getting hot in here,aren't we?:D ….

and errr ditto:D:D

Quote:

Are all human above angels or just those who have great great faith and when they sin they ask forgiveness..I'll check on this point more inshallah.

yes esp. as the gift at the end is seeing God and the angels do that all the time plus the angels are like 3rd ( or is it even second?) on the list of things you have to be a Beliver ranking above prophets, books and fate good and evil.
10-23-2006, 06:21 AM
Pensive

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

Hi Pensive! :banana:

What definition of 'special' are you using?

p.s. I agree, you're special. :D

Hey!

By special, I mean "Of a distinct or particular kind or character."

Yes, I am special and so are you and every other person/amimal/bird/insect and even things. :p (My Computer is special.:D)
10-23-2006, 07:06 AM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pensive

Hey!

By special, I mean "Of a distinct or particular kind or character."

Yes, I am special and so are you and every other person/amimal/bird/insect and even things. :p (My Computer is special.:D)

Well, if everything is special, Pensy, then nothing is special.
10-23-2006, 01:13 PM
Turk

Quote:

Marx and Neitzche renounced their religions, Hitler never did.

Does he need to do that? It's clear that he wasn't a Catholic.

Quote:

Why do you think that? Give some evidence. Adam Smith was hardly a materialist, but Karl Marx sure was.

I don't want to explain this, because if we start this, this thread won't end.

Quote:

Yes, Sweden has a democratic socialist government, one of the most left-wing in the world (before the last election, anyway). It runs mostly on private ownership, but there is a strong policy towards correcting social inequality. And many are atheists.

Having Democratic Socialist government doesn't mean Sweden is constitutionaly Socialist. You already said "Socialist" at first, but Socialism is far different than Democratic Socialism. To me, it's just fits conservative bourgeouis socialism. Before everything if there's no proleterian dictatorship there's no "socialism". But as i said Sweden is maybe the most social state of the world. But that doesn't mean they'r socialist. Their economical system is completely Capitalist and they have a lot of global companies. With this kind of companies and 7-8 millions no growing population, all countries could be social as Sweden. Btw i would also like to said Scandinavian countries are very different than other parts of Europe and i think they never become true Christians. Today they have no moral and their lifestyle sucks and those countries also have highest suicide rates of Europe. I know a lil more (i've a friend who studies there) but subject is not Sweden. Shortly Sweden is not a good example for ideal state and society.

Quote:

Are all human above angels or just those who have great great faith and when they sin they ask forgiveness..I'll check on this point more inshallah.

In creation, in beginning, human is supreme than angels. Research as much as you can do.

Quote:

If Satan is that much faithful ,then how he disobey his Creator??if he is faithful ,as some scholars think, then he would've obeyed his God without arguing! Do those Thinkers know that he was fired from Heaven because of his disobedience.

I don't say it's my idea and i disagree this. But some thinkers have this idea (if i remember accurately Muhyiddin İbn-i Arabi is one of them too). But obviously those thinkers were more educated about İslam than us. There can be many different comments, but all in they all defended unity (Tevhid).

Quote:

Hitler was catholic ? I thought he was jewish, ahh well we live and learn anyway onwards and upwards as they say.

Hitler's mother worked as servant for a Jewish family in Vien. That's why some people claims Hitler was a Jewish, in fact this Jewish family keep sending money to Hitler's mom when she return to her village too. But that doesn't mean Hitler was a Jewish. His father is Alois Hitler, a German (but probly they had a little Czech blood in their veins) and Hitler doesn't have racial specialities of Jews too. This will be off topic, so i don't want to tell more about it but i want to say that Hitler was the probly one of most charismatic 2-3 leaders of 20. century and he was a true genius, if he had grown up in a better society, family, time etc. he could be a much different.
10-23-2006, 06:37 PM
miss tenderness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

In creation, in beginning, human is supreme than angels. Research as much as you can do.

I will absouletly do. This point caught me interest ;)

I don't say it's my idea and i disagree this. But some thinkers have this idea (if i remember accurately Muhyiddin İbn-i Arabi is one of them too). But obviously those thinkers were more educated about İslam than us. There can be many different comments, but all in they all defended unity (Tevhid).

[/QUOTE]

No need to be angery ,Turk. I've n't said that it's u who come up with this unacceptable idea,have I? I was just defending my belief. It' nt u whom I disagreed with. I disagreed with those thinkers.I know u mainly transfered their theories.Please read carefully my posts, it really upsets me when someone misunderstand my intentions:bawling:
10-23-2006, 08:47 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Does he need to do that? It's clear that he wasn't a Catholic.

Not to hear him speak it isn't. He frequently refenced God and how the aryans are the race chosen to carry out God's work (an idea that is not original with him, by the way). Bottom line, if he was a materialist, he sure didn't act like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

I don't want to explain this, because if we start this, this thread won't end.

Are you in some kind of hurry? As a materialist who is also a rabid anti-capitalist, I would love to hear this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Having Democratic Socialist government doesn't mean Sweden is constitutionaly Socialist. You already said "Socialist" at first, but Socialism is far different than Democratic Socialism.

Socialism is different than a certain kind of socialism?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Before everything if there's no proleterian dictatorship there's no "socialism".

Marx isn't the first and last word on socialism, friend, he was just a very influential socialist. From my dictionary:

Quote:

The term 'socialism' has been used to describe positions as far apart as anarchism, Soviet state communism, and social democracy

I can't see how you can continue to defend your position that there is no socialism in Sweden when you keep using the terms "socialism" "social" and "socialist" to describe it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Today they have no moral and their lifestyle sucks

Ok, now all materialists and Swedes hate you. Any other masses you'd like to offend, or are you done?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Shortly Sweden is not a good example for ideal state and society.

Who said it is? I'm simply refuting your suggestion that atheism and capitalism are somehow tied in with each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

I want to say that Hitler was the probly one of most charismatic 2-3 leaders of 20. century and he was a true genius, if he had grown up in a better society, family, time etc. he could be a much different.

He would have made a brilliant actor.
10-24-2006, 10:44 AM
Turk

I'm not angry at you Miss Tenderness. I just clarified that it's not my thought.

And Cuppajoe, you really started to make just demogogy. If i say something i don't say it just sake of saying. I know Hitler references God many times, i've read his book Mein Kampf, but he's clearly much far than Catholicism or any religion. And yeah Socialism is different than a certain kind of Socialism and i've never read any Socialist who claims it's possible that Capitalism and Socialism can work together, even if you don't accept ideas of Karl Marks Sweden is still not Socialist. In fact Sweden has purely Capitalist economy. Democratic Socialists and leftists are very strong in almost all countries of Europe. Isn't Tony Blair leader of Worker Party? You mixing social state and Socialism to each other. At last i would like to say; if anyone hates me it's not my problem, i don't hate anyone since my life is too short to hate someone.
10-24-2006, 11:03 AM
Scheherazade

The topic of this thread is 'Are humans special or are we nothing more the mere rabbits?' Please start new threads on other topics you would like to discuss.

Further off topic / personal posts are likely to be deleted.
10-24-2006, 05:43 PM
Kareniyna

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

As a materialist who is also a rabid anti-capitalist, I would love to hear this.

(I'm new kid on the block, mind if I jump in? I've followed this thread with interest)
could you define "materialist" for me? in the sense that you consider yourself to be one? How does it relate to being anti-capitalist as well?
10-25-2006, 03:36 AM
Chava

Did anyone mention the similarity of DNA between a CHimp and a human? I beleive it to be about 98%

So much for a massive difference...

not to mention, humans have the same amount of hair as a chimp... frightening thought really

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