What created God?

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

Did religious texts create god or do people create religious texts? Or is the only way for people to know god through religious texts? Or maybe reason allows us to think about god without the smelly dogma. It's very clear that you haven't thought through these issues very much...Turk.

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Religious texts sent by God. And nothing created God, he created everything.

There's no certain answer for second question. Because every individual is different, some may understand God's existence without texts maybe, but some may not understand it too. You can think and you can ask smart, interesting or silly questions without reading texts. But then you don't know in which era of history you living, in which era of history you are thinking. Questions you've asked, asked before you too. You may like to check/read this maybe; http://umcc.ais.org/~maftab/ip/pdf/bktxt/hayy.pdf

In this very interesting book, Hayy is symbol of pure reason-pure human, but there's Asal and Salaman too, and there's society.

You can call religion smelly dogma, and yeah, in some ways, some religions are smelly dogmas, full of clashes, full of irrationalist thoughts. But i don't think my belief is dogma, but some people can make it a dogma too. It depends on every individual's point of view.

And yeah, maybe as you said i may not have thought enough about this stuff, but since i've read a lot of religious/philosophic texts, i have the heritage of centuries, heritage of generations. And that's why i don't keep repeating questions that asked thousands of years ago.

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Originally Posted by Turk

Religious texts sent by God. And nothing created God, he created everything.

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Not to be a jerk, but that wasn't really an explaination.

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

Not to be a jerk, but that wasn't really an explaination.

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Ok. Everyone is free to believe or not to believe. There's no certain prove of that religious texts (for me Kur'an) sent by God, if there would be certain prove of that everyone would believe it, but also there's no certain prove of that text didn't send by God too, i thought about it since long time, sometimes i was going to lose my belief, but at last i choosed to believe that. That's called faith. I don't claim religion is a scientific concept and could prove with experiments or calculations, it's a belief.

So that's why i could gave that answer, just like opposite thoughts couldn't bring any certain prove.

Well in Holy Quran and Hadeeths of prophet there is science, and Holy Quran can be prooven to be from God by the scientific verses it contain.
I advice you to read the beutifull book of the biggest embryology scientist Keith L.Moore called: "The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology with Islamic Additions", its the third edition of his famous book: "The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology" here my friend went to buy it but in the medica library they said to him that this book came for short time and then it stopped (who know why?) and in a video he confissed that the verses written in Quran cant be written by man because at that time it was impossible to discover such things, and he said that the Quran must be sent from God. And another big scientists that thier testimony was hidden.
And another big scientists who confissed that Quran is not said by man because of scientific verses.
Perhaps its out of subject, but i think it is relaited to the texts and who created them.

The Idea Of Choosing 'to Believe' Is Interesting. Is That Really What I Believe?? I Respect Turk's Exercise Of Free Will But I Think That Is Opening A Can Of Squirmy Ideas. I'd Like To Hear More Of What He Means.

In reading over these posts, a new question pops to mind: If you are convinced that there is no God, doesn't the question of how He came into being become moot?

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

In reading over these posts, a new question pops to mind: If you are convinced that there is no God, doesn't the question of how He came into being become moot?

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To quote the opening post:

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Originally Posted by BeingaBunny

One problem I have with the idea of God is that, as an answer to life, it doesn't solve anything. I mean, if God created us, then what created God?

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It would seem from these words that reconciling the apparent difficulty in the concept of God as "eternal" or similarly "uncreated" would obviate one obstruction towards that particular member's belief in God.

Also, if an atheist could show that the idea of God being eternal is ridiculous or absurd, they could perhaps further the cause of atheistic philosophy? Why do any atheists try to make philosophical points at all? Perhaps because they feel an intellectual obligation to? Or a need to promote what they believe to be true, same as anybody? Just for fun (same as anybody ;))?

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Originally Posted by ennison

The Idea Of Choosing 'to Believe' Is Interesting. Is That Really What I Believe?? I Respect Turk's Exercise Of Free Will But I Think That Is Opening A Can Of Squirmy Ideas. I'd Like To Hear More Of What He Means.

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It's faith. Some chooses not to believe, some chooses to believe. If i'd know your certain question i could try to give a certain answer. Because as you said there's many questions could asked about that, so i prefer to hear your question before telling something.

Ok. Here's my question. Is faith an act of choice or is it God-given - in your opinion?

I believe you can be moved to faith but the final decision is yours.

Just as in Matthew 22: 14 - "For many are called, but few are chosen" is a perfect example of how their is an opportunity for ALL to accept Jesus as Savior, yet in the end, few make the decision to move to faith.

The translation there uses a passive verb '... are chosen' so it does not sound to me like it is the choice of the believer.

If it is not the choice of the believer, then where is free will?

Good question.

you created god. :)

Oooo! There is a scripture in the Bible that says how God was created, I think. Read Habakkuk chp3 verses 3-6

Me? Personally? It's grand to be omnipotent!! And here I was thinking I was the created being made of dust. Turns out I'm the Creator. Ok plebs ... for my next trick.

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Originally Posted by ennison

Ok. Here's my question. Is faith an act of choice or is it God-given - in your opinion?

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A choice. We choose. It would be unfair if it would be a God-given. Because some doesn't have faith, some doesn't believes God. If faith would be God-given then that would mean God gave faith to some of us, and didn't give faith to some of us, and that's completely unfair.

On the other hand, if God would choose for us, there wouldn't be free will, and if there wouldn't be free will, there wouldn't ben sin or goodness too.

if we had the answers, we would be God.

Our will is relaited to will of God, God gave us the ability to choose, his will was that we will have the will to choose and his will was also that we will be able to choose 1 thing of 2: or to believe in him or not to believe. So you who say that you have the total free will, why you dont create another type of will out of the will that God decided..

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Originally Posted by bella_swan07

Oooo! There is a scripture in the Bible that says how God was created, I think. Read Habakkuk chp3 verses 3-6

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Habakkuk 3:3-6

3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

3:4 And [his] brightness was as the light; he had horns [coming] out of his hand: and there [was] the hiding of his power.

3:5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.

3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways [are] everlasting.

Where does this tell who, what, when, where, or how God was created? If you replace the word "God" with the name of any King, it becomes the account of a battle or punishment. "King David came from Teman, by way of Mount Paran--" see? This is a statement of judgement upon a people not of the creation of God, and the direction from which the judgement came, in the form of some sort of pestilence, and perhaps an earthquake.

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Originally Posted by Shield&Sword

Our will is relaited to will of God, God gave us the ability to choose, his will was that we will have the will to choose and his will was also that we will be able to choose 1 thing of 2: or to believe in him or not to believe. So you who say that you have the total free will, why you dont create another type of will out of the will that God decided..

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If you had read my earlier posts you would know nobody said we have a FREE WILL LIKE GOD'S WILL. God's will is out of universe, time, and all of other concepts in this time, so even comparing his will to human's will is completely silly. It's silly as asking "Who created God?". But in this universe, for limits of this universe, we absolutely have total free will. All concepts, including good and bad, time, mercy or merciless created by God. You can choose whatever you want, and it's total free will for limits of this universe, nobody's comparing God's will to human will, if you read some scholars such as Maturidi or Rabbani you understand those things better.

And this is what i said in my earlier post;

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And nothing created God, he created everything.

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we are all using the word God, and some of us little realize that this word may mean a different person for others..for example for some of us God only means "someone who created us and this universe" and for others he is, besides being the Creator, someone who is merciful, omnipotent etc...

so, i believe this fact should be kept in view while communicating to people who have different opinion...As God is not only the creator for many of us, but also a combination of some qualities...why not take into account the fact that there may be someone who believed in evil God...the Creator who does not want us to be happy or who wants us to be doomed...i know such people who have no hope in life or expect anything good after they die.

moreover, someone above was talking about scientific proofs.for them...

""suppose what u say is truth for present....your prophet was true..he was appointed by God to do so and so..and the book you hold is the word of God..Suppose that you were made to live in the paradise after you died..(afeter you were given antoher life)...What is the guarantee that after a few days/months/years he , the God, once again will not put you in this world or even a worse one..afterall he did a thing of which he was not to have any benifet. and he did it when it was not really needed (was it really needed you think??? and if it was, who needed it??) and another thing

if he did not fulfil what u say he has promised, who would compell him to do so....can you bring forth any scientific proof that His will will not change..after all he seems a capricious person..who does freaks without any disires..he can do even more funny tricks with even less desire...

To my it really boils down to a matter of faith. without any thing to do with logic or science..no one can proove his being (with certain qualities one presuemes) using logic or science like no one can prove the opposite of it...

Turk where did i mistake in my previuos post, i didnt compare will of God with our will, i said that our will will is relaited to will of God and i mean by that that our will is limited by will of God, our will does not go out of will of God the total will.
I didnt read alot about free will in islam but Better to read books of the 4 scholars Shafi'i, Abu Hanifa, Maliki, Hanbali, and Ibn Alqaiyem and other famous scholars.
Maturidi was more as Mutakallem," المتكلمة" they use more philosophy in explaining, not so good, i dont want to get in these things but i understand your words.

I think in this thread we are on the discussion who created God, the base of believing in God is believing in him as the creator of this universe, was thi universe created or did it come alone, and in this point no matter what your faith is we all have the choice to answer 2 answers: "this world was created" or "this world came alone". So i think what you said will come after the person choose the answer. The answer that will be is relaited to how you look to this universe, and also your thoughts that will be also are relaited to how you look to this universe around, does the one who created all this world are playing around? does the one who did all this sofisticated things will at us and why? more that you admire the universe more that you will have good thoughts about God, also to know God is not enough to look around, here come the searching for his words his path to read what is presented , the proofs that he gave to his prophet in order to proove the validity of this text. If you want to think about God as one who play around then you are takling about person not God, or like one who lie then you are talkijng about person not God.

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Originally Posted by Shield&Sword

Turk where did i mistake in my previuos post, i didnt compare will of God with our will, i said that our will will is relaited to will of God and i mean by that that our will is limited by will of God, our will does not go out of will of God the total will.
I didnt read alot about free will in islam but Better to read books of the 4 scholars Shafi'i, Abu Hanifa, Maliki, Hanbali, and Ibn Alqaiyem and other famous scholars.
Maturidi was more as Mutakallem," المتكلمة" they use more philosophy in explaining, not so good, i dont want to get in these things but i understand your words.

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You didn't compare our will to God's will. But you sounded like we are comparing these two.

Shafi, Hanefi, Maliki and Hanbali are four sects of Islam, but they are practical sects, there's widely accepted 2 creedal sects; Eşar'iyye and Maturidiyye. Their subjects are different, İmamı Azam Abu Hanife, Imam Shafi or Ahmed Bin Hanbel mostly explain practical stuff. Since Maturidi or Eş'ari explained creedel stuff, it's normal that their style is more philosophic. But if you research about 4 practical sects's Imams, you see they accept Maturidi's or Eşari's thoughts about creedel stuff.

I'm sorry Turk you want God to operate according to your ideas of fairness. Such a God is a little god just like us. We have to drop our conceptions of fairness. I can choose X or Y or Z and each choice is either motivated by flesh or reason - both flawed so I'm afraid your idea that we choose faith does not hold water with me. We choose religions - all flawed. We choose tribes - all clay. We choose this modern trend or that - all temporary. God's too big to choose. God does the choosing as a form of humbling.

The lack of an iron cast answer to this question is one the of the reasons I have a tendancy to go for the Nihilist point of view. But as that is rarther boring as a post, I'll voice a few other opinions I have heard on the subject.

The question that if god is infinate, why is humanity so young? Holy scriptures almost always seem to describe the first humans as tool using sentinet beings, but such beings have been around for less than a million years, which compaired to infinity is absolutly nothing. Surely this raises the question as to whether or not this is the first universe that god created. Perhaps, if god is infinate, there are an infinate number of other universes, which would contradict the claim humanity are his chosen children, which is another claim I have heard made.

There are hundreds of religions all preaching their own indervidual ways to reach god. However, as most of them also claim to be the only true way to reach god, how does a person decide who is telling the truth and who is telling lies? Or could there be differnet gods for each religion as required, thus casting even more complextion into the question.

The paradox theory. This is something I came up with a while ago when contemplating alternative theorys as to how the universe was created. There might be a propper theory similer to it, and if so I would like to know what it is. The concept is that at some point in the future, someone, be it human or alien or whatever, will travel back in time and create the universe, causing a paradox. While it might raise the question as to how the paradox started, as a paradox is infinet, it essencially 'avoids' the question in the same style as the god argument.

This one is aimed at Big Bang believers out there: What created the big bang? Again, while it may seem a little off topic, I just wanted to pick exactly the same hole in the Science argument that is being picked here.

When Aaron changed his slat into a snake the priests of pharaoh did exactly the same. Point? That which is counterfeit is almost identical to that which is true. There are numerous political systems (as well as religions) and the adherents of these believe they have the shining path to shangri-la-on-earth. It would be odd if they didn't believe that. We probably have to work out which are true and which are false. Not beyond us once we confront our own prejudices and failings.

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Originally Posted by raphien

man is programmed to think in a particular manner and to go against it is just not easy.

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Interesting...so if God does indeed make us think the way we think, and everyone thinks differently then either we must have different Gods, or He is just plain cruel.

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Originally Posted by BeingaBunny

One problem I have with the idea of God is that, as an answer to life, it doesn't solve anything. I mean, if God created us, then what created God? It solves the question of our own existence and creates the same question of His existence - solving nothing. It merely moves the same question to another subject, which I daresay is rather fallacious.

That said, if God presides over our universe, outside of what we have here, entropy must be going on somewhere because God obviously came from something somewhere. Or - what? - he just poofed in?

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As God Himself says, He, along with every spirit, has no beginning and thus no end. I think that categorically solves the question of the creation of God, of course for Christians only.

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Originally Posted by BeingaBunny

The answer that he is omnipotent and can do whatever the hell he wants just isn't very satisfying or realistic. I mean, if he did create our universe, he must have an objective. Why would an omnipotent being have or need an objective?

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A purpose or "objective" is essential for a divine being, it is the conduit to exercise His powers to better all beings.

His objective, his "work and glory", as revealed to Moses, is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of Man."

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Originally Posted by BeingaBunny

The christian concensus seems to be that God cannot be created, and that he doesn't need to be because he is outside of time. That said, he also created the universe and created time inside of it.

If god is outside of time, where there is no before and after, then he could not have created the universe - because creating anything simply indicates before and after, before universe and after universe, which means that god must be affected by time in his "realm" - at least henceforth from creation.

The only way God wouldn't be affected by time is if he did not create the universe and god merely exists outside of it, neither creating the other.

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I agree with this. If God has existed from all eternity, with no beginning, which is the "Christian consensus", it does not follow that He is not subject to or in the linear progression of time. I believe that God being "inside" and not "outside" of time, does not diminish his power or authenticity, because, to me, God and the Universe are self-existing beings, and each having a relation to each other does not void either's eternality.

It is all solved if, as I believe, God did not "create" the Universe, create meaning making something from nothing, and rather organized the infinite matter already, eternally, existing into His various works, meaning that nothing was ever "created" by God or anyone else, including Himself, the Universe, and each person's spirit.