are women losing their sense of feminity?

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

beer guzzling was a man's enterprise until women hijacked it. :p it started with those wine coolers and margaritas. then women graduated up to real beer. now a sexy woman walks in a bar, pulls up a seat, rolls up her flannel sleeves and snarls, "Gimme a f'n Bud will ya?!" :p

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scared of women encroaching on men's territory?

This is an interesting thread jon1jt! I suppose you've got a point, for some reason a lot of women feel that it's necessary to emulate men in order to appear 'strong'. As many people have pointed out, the right to behave badly is genderless, women have a right to behave appaulingly, and you have a right not to like it, but for many women they simply don't see that you can be feminine and strong, you don't have to emulate the increasingly poor behaviour of men to achieve that. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander, right?

Perhaps women are (stupidly) responding to the behaviour they see from men. Is a damn long time since I've experienced gentlemanly behaviour in a bar. What happened to the days when men treated women respectfully, were polite, didn't grumble about paying the bill and then 'not getting some'? Perhaps women are simply responding to what they think men want? Men have double standards in this respect, they want their partners to be classy, feminine, sweet and kind, but then spend their evenings getting their rocks off in lap dancing bars and watching cheap porn.

I don't count myself as one of those women who feels the need to resort to 'laddish' behaviour, but then I'm lucky enough to be partnered up to one of those increasingly rare old fashioned gentlemen ;)

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

no, i disagree with that. men are from mars, women are from venus, don't you know? biological differences between men and women necessitate each gender's social habits and needs. men used to watch football with the guys, no girls. :)

beer guzzling was a man's enterprise until women hijacked it. :p it started with those wine coolers and margaritas. then women graduated up to real beer. now a sexy woman walks in a bar, pulls up a seat, rolls up her flannel sleeves and snarls, "Gimme a f'n Bud will ya?!" :p

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You are just trying to excuse your behaviour :D
And women't can't - that is patronising :D

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

What happened to the days when men treated women respectfully, were polite, didn't grumble about paying the bill and then 'not getting some'? Perhaps women are simply responding to what they think men want?

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i'll say it again. those days ended when the good guys got the message that women fell for the other guys that didn't open doors for them or pay for dinner. :D

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Originally Posted by fifthelement

Men have double standards in this respect, they want their partners to be classy, feminine, sweet and kind, but then spend their evenings getting their rocks off in lap dancing bars and watching cheap porn.

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well, Oprah spent a full week on this subject. :) when asked whether they enjoyed having sex with their husbands, every married woman admitted to their husbands to being turned off or even repulsed by the mere thought of having to sleep with him. some went so far as to admit they'd be quite happy if the husband "got it" from somebody else so long as he protected himself in the process and kept the money coming in for the bills. :D

i say let that guy have his sad lap dance or watch a little porn if he so chooses. it's in the best interest of the marriage! :D

to a point, yes, women have lost their.. 'femininity', as you would say, but then again, the whole notion of femininity is based on a stereotype. who was it that created the whole stereotype again?? wasn't it.. men?

women being free from the stereotype just recently has its effects. women are now free to engage in politics. that's the plus side. on the other hand, though, being free of the stereotype has its disadvantages. like this thread here. yo say that we are losing our 'femininity.' but if you think about it, if there were a pairs hilton a few years back, then she would practically be disowned by her father. (i think at some point, she really was, even in today's more 'liberal' world.)

because of the stereotypes and the characteristics listerd under our gender roles, men being slobs and laying around drunk is more accepted in our society than if a woman does the same. just like in many cultures, it's accepted, almost expected, even for a man to have an extramarital relationship. (a bad thing for anyone of the male gender who is faithful by nature). if it were a woman, she would be called a s*ut.

in response to this whole gender thing, what if we thought of it this way: women are stepping out of the stereotype. they're playing men's roles-even to a point of going into the negative stereotypes of men-drunkards, gamblers, etc. well instead of losing their femininity, what if they were just gaining their masculinity?

stereotypes aren't fair to anyone, but if you do befot the negative stereotypes included in a certain role, then at vertain times the 'consequences' are lightened. can't we just throw stereotypes out the window? (ha. i wish. easier said than done.)

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

You are just trying to excuse your behaviour :D And women't can't - that is patronising :D

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hey, in fairness, women are not the only ones doing the mimicking. more and more men today are following women to the beauty salon for a facial or to have their nails done. we call such men, metrosexuals. women's rights, men's rights, individuality, yea! yea! :banana:

post-script:

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Originally Posted by Mortis Anarchy

But I think men have changed as well. What happened to good old chivalry and opening doors for the ladies...hmm?

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men who open doors for us ladies are such a rarity now that in my opinion it's a plus factor for any guy.

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

my observation is that women, no matter how hard they try, CAN'T be themselves anymore.

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Now this is where you are wrong. The whole point is that women can be themselves now. The rule of femininity that you seem to be looking for in a woman were rule originally set down by men in a society ruled and dictated by men. Now that women have been given much of the equal rights that they deserve, they are letting out the true woman that has been locked up inside them wanting to get out but couldnt because men expected us to behave like robots and pets. We arent either of these. We are human beings, we should be allowed to act like human beings, and be respected and treated like human being by men. Men have got to stop thinking that they are superior to us, and start accepting that this is real women.

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and strangely enough, there is still this fierce sense in women for maintaining a sense of individuality. can anyone reconcile that one for me?

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obviously from this comment, we should all behave like good robots, in exactly the same why as everyone else? If a man can be an indevidual, so can women. I'm proud of who i'm.

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and what is this inner drive in women to be like men all about?

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We dont want to be like men. We want to be ourselves.

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

beer guzzling was a man's enterprise until women hijacked it. :p it started with those wine coolers and margaritas. then women graduated up to real beer. now a sexy woman walks in a bar, pulls up a seat, rolls up her flannel sleeves and snarls, "Gimme a f'n Bud will ya?!" :p

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Beer is an ancient alcoholic drink. It was definitely in existance in my country as early as the Iron age. My countries mythology shows women getting drunk on beer with other men. My countries most famous legendary hero Chucullain choose his wife Emer from a group of women because she could pee the farthest. Women were worriors and fought alongside men, even commanded armies of men. They were still doing it a thousand years ago.
I'm sure it was similar in may other countries also.

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Originally Posted by storybookauthor

What makes you think that women are copying behaviors, or make the generalization that only a small percentage of men are slobs while a large amount of women are losing their sense of femininity? I think a lot of the 18-35 age group that you mention may not have found their identity yet, and maybe they're trying other ones. Maybe it's a way to find their own individual.

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Here here!!:thumbs_up

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Maybe Freud is right and girls have penis envy. Or maybe you're right and we're lazy, since I'm still in my pajamas from this morning since I only worked on some stuff at home today. *shrugs*

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I dont see anything wrong with lazing around in pjs all day.

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Does anyone know what to do if it keeps saying that you're signed out? Because it does it like every five minutes, and close to driving me insane. I must be missing that patience part.

-Anna.

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If you open a second window and open up litnet, select viewing whos online. this refreshes every minute and will keep you signed on.:)

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Originally Posted by Shalot

But more important is this: maybe women aren't losing their sense of feminity. Maybe they're redefining the term? But see how far I've left to go in that I have to end my assertion with a question mark.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by Mortis Anarchy

Okay, you got me there;)

Yes the bad boy is rather attractive, to me it used to be...but not anymore.

and every girl likes a bit old fashion manners...and I'm sure you guys miss the old, stay at home mom housewife that doesn't flash her goods to the world or get totally wasted every single night...but hey you guys out there:p I don't think the entire population is like that;)

I hope I'm not speaking for myself...:)

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Yes every woman likes to see some old fashioned manners from men (even the bad ones, which can i remind you lads, not ALL women go for). You cant moan about women "loosing" their femininity (as dictated by men) in a society where men have "lost" all sense of chivelry?

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

You are just trying to excuse your behaviour :D
And women't can't - that is patronising :D

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It is patronising.

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Originally Posted by amanda_isabel

to a point, yes, women have lost their.. 'femininity', as you would say, but then again, the whole notion of femininity is based on a stereotype. who was it that created the whole stereotype again?? wasn't it.. men?

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I've already agreed with you!:thumbs_up

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women being free from the stereotype just recently has its effects. women are now free to engage in politics. that's the plus side. on the other hand, though, being free of the stereotype has its disadvantages. like this thread here. yo say that we are losing our 'femininity.' but if you think about it, if there were a pairs hilton a few years back, then she would practically be disowned by her father. (i think at some point, she really was, even in today's more 'liberal' world.)

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I think its time some men accepted us for who we are. We are going to be around for as long as you are. A women happens to be in the highest position my country has to offer, the seat of the president, a seat that has been held by women for almost twenty years. And they've done a very good job of it.

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because of the stereotypes and the characteristics listerd under our gender roles, men being slobs and laying around drunk is more accepted in our society than if a woman does the same. just like in many cultures, it's accepted, almost expected, even for a man to have an extramarital relationship. (a bad thing for anyone of the male gender who is faithful by nature). if it were a woman, she would be called a s*ut.

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:thumbs_up couldnt have said it better myself.

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in response to this whole gender thing, what if we thought of it this way: women are stepping out of the stereotype. they're playing men's roles-even to a point of going into the negative stereotypes of men-drunkards, gamblers, etc. well instead of losing their femininity, what if they were just gaining their masculinity?

stereotypes aren't fair to anyone, but if you do befot the negative stereotypes included in a certain role, then at vertain times the 'consequences' are lightened. can't we just throw stereotypes out the window? (ha. i wish. easier said than done.)

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well said.

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Originally Posted by Niamh

Beer is an ancient alcoholic drink. It was definitely in existance in my country as early as the Iron age. My countries mythology shows women getting drunk on beer with other men. My countries most famous legendary hero Chucullain choose his wife Emer from a group of women because she could pee the farthest.

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Hey that's how I picked my wife!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Men are allowed to be rude and crude, and they're also allowed to be gentlemen. Why can't women have the same freedom to behave and speak as they please? Why must the expectations to be setting the courteous, refined example be imposed on women?
I personally am sick of the constant pressure put on women to be "perfect", driven to spending masses of time, energy and money on keeping themselves physically ideal in the eyes of men. If women want to be slobs, let them. If not, that's their choice too.

Besides, is it really the WOMEN who are giving the "attention" to Paris Hilton that keeps her in micro skirts and drinks,thereby encouraging this "lack of class"?

Women are people, not to be put on pedastools. If you want an example set, maybe start with your own gender. Where do you think these "slobby women" learn from?

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

i'll say it again. those days ended when the good guys got the message that women fell for the other guys that didn't open doors for them or pay for dinner. :D

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So, perhaps women stopped being feminine and classy when they realised the men fell for the other girls who "curse, drink beer (though a Bud isn't really beer - give us a proper pint of John Smiths or Worthington's any day :D ), yell, spit, smoke, do shots until they babble, wear slutty clothes, and seem to go out of their way to be outrageous for attention" to quote your own example ;)

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

excellent comments, yes!!!

my observation is that women, no matter how hard they try, CAN'T be themselves anymore. there's a built-in fear in them that if they want to be classy, sophisticated, they best make that a fashion statement, not a character statement. or else they're labeled JAPS or stuck up or not fun to be around by other women.

and god forbid a woman calls herself a 'stay-at-home' mom in front of other women at a Starbucks! gasp!

and strangely enough, there is still this fierce sense in women for maintaining a sense of individuality. can anyone reconcile that one for me?

another question is, how can women find out who they are if they're so busy copying the very worst behaviors of men (a very small percentage of slobs)?


how does this all translate to kids who watch their 45-year old mothers walking around wearing little backpacks and botox lips while drinking beer till they're a drunken slob?

and what is this inner drive in women to be like men all about?

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I don't think it's lack of "feminity" you're criticising here Jon, more like apathy.
Why should men be allowed to spend their times at the bar and neglect the kids, while women are left to clean up the mess? It is only up until very recently that various waves of 20th and 21st century feminism has allowed women in society to be allowed the same social, political and economic oppurtunities as men. The oppression experienced and restrictions imposed on women up until then( and still occuring now to a lesser degree) caused some pretty severe resentment and hostility. Men have been doing the things you've described for centuries, why is it the women who have to clean up their act? Can you blame women for wanting a little backlash after centuries of being trapped in the domestic circle?
Inner drive to be like men? So you've copyrighted alcohol?

You forget that, although we may be seeing a rise in womens freedom of behaviour in Western society, most of the modern world is still dominated by patriarchal beliefs and rules. Women are severely abused and oppressed all around the world, the justification being that they are subservient to men and should therefore play their game.

Who puts the pressure on women to get "botox lips"? People don't undergo plastic surgery for recreation. The media, still dominated by men, re-enforces societal expectations that women should look and act ideally. This is still a man's world, some women are simply wanting a little of the action.
My question is, why don't MEN change their ways? Just because they've been acting this way for longer, doesn't make it any better.

I read the first post of this thread (topic) and my head hurt badly.

I personally believe that it's hypocritical to shout "equal treatment" and then complain when men don't treat them as kind or open doors for them and stuff...

And I also find it annyoing that people complain that women are loosing their sense of feminity and then complain about how disney is truning their little girls into princesses ;)

I agree that the stereotypes suck, I find it so annoying that whenever my theatre teacher curses, he looks at me and gives me a guilty look... And I am notorious in other classes for... erm... expressing myself rather loudly without censoring myself... I want to kick him everytime he does it, but he's my teacher, and I dislike theatre, and I need a good a grade I can get ;)

Anyways, there is a double standard, and it also sucks... I know people have already talked about it:

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just like in many cultures, it's accepted, almost expected, even for a man to have an extramarital relationship. (a bad thing for anyone of the male gender who is faithful by nature). if it were a woman, she would be called a s*ut.

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But it also goes the other way... If a male teacher sleeps with a girl for grades, it's jail, do not pass go, and the girl is ridiculed... but if a female teacher sleeps with a boy for grades, it takes longer to put her in jail, and she usually gets a lesser sentence, and the guy gets congradulated for doing it with the hot teacher...

And nowadays, the US has gone insane... Some seventh grader was sent to jail for slapping girls' butts!! They got five days in jail, were charged with felony sex charges, which could have been placed on sexual predator lists for the rest of their lives, and the penalty for which is 10 years in jail...

I think, that is some cases, women are more feminine than ever, and I'd personally rather have a spitting, cursing, and drunk woman, than one who is so easily offended and gets worked up over stupid things...

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

sure girls aspire to paris hilton or else she wouldn't be on every other pop mag cover. in the last 25 years, the three women most responsible for setting the trend that being a sleazy female is cool goes to:

1. Madonna
2. Courtney Love
3. Britney Spears
:D

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Umm...no. Not to be mean, but no.

She's on every other pop magazine cover because she does crazy, idiotic things. It doesn't mean people respect and/or aspire to be her; you don't respect her, and I don't either. If they do, it's probably for her looks, not for what she does. I could be wrong, but I think you have to give more credit to girls than that. We're not stupid, maybe easily amused by tabloids, but not stupid.

And I recall a boy in my fourth grade class buying a book on Britney Spears from the book fair for the pictures. It's not always girls buying those books, and I don't think he respected her either.

I have no idea who Courtney Love is.

-Anna.