are women losing their sense of feminity?

[Shalot]

Feminity is great and all, but some of it is rather restrictive. A woman who has a professional job has to take at least forty five minutes longer in the morning to get ready to go to work than a professional man. Granted, men usually have to shave in their morning, but they don't have to wash dry and style their hair, which can take an hour. Then there is the whole application of make-up which can take 15 minutes or longer, not to mention the prep time with the cleansing and the exfoliating and the moisturizing and under eye creme which women need since they have to wake up so early to do all this crap.

Then there are hose and slips and camisoles and undergarments woman have to wear under their work wear, which are all a pain in the rear and expensive too (you have to buy the right ones and the right ones are always expensive. and I bet as a man, OP, you have no idea what goes into shopping and pairing underwear with your clothes. I mean you probably think it's real easy, but there are certainly rules of underwear that I won't go into here but I am sure the ladies here know).

And men do not have to wear skirts so they don't have to worry as much about crossing their ankles when they sit. You can (for the most part) cross and uncross your legs without worry and splay yourselves across any comfortable sitting surface.

I suppose women can acheive a classy elegant feminine look without all the prep time, but it's harder than you think it is and if some women want to be a little more casual at work, then more power to them. It is very difficult to be comfortable in hose!

and that's my two cents. Too sum up, tradional feminine clothing is very restrictive and I hate it. And it's hard to think and perform when you're worried about all this CRAP which is what it is.

[jon1jt]

excellent comments, yes!!!

my observation is that women, no matter how hard they try, CAN'T be themselves anymore. there's a built-in fear in them that if they want to be classy, sophisticated, they best make that a fashion statement, not a character statement. or else they're labeled JAPS or stuck up or not fun to be around by other women.

and god forbid a woman calls herself a 'stay-at-home' mom in front of other women at a Starbucks! gasp!

and strangely enough, there is still this fierce sense in women for maintaining a sense of individuality. can anyone reconcile that one for me?

another question is, how can women find out who they are if they're so busy copying the very worst behaviors of men (a very small percentage of slobs)?


how does this all translate to kids who watch their 45-year old mothers walking around wearing little backpacks and botox lips while drinking beer till they're a drunken slob?

and what is this inner drive in women to be like men all about?

[storybookauthor]

I thought femininity just referred to what women were considered at whatever time, not set rules.

Paris Hilton isn't exactly what most girls aspire to. At least, I really doubt it. Basing what girls are from the tabloids doesn't seem like proper representation. If it is, then a lot of babies must've been eaten by aliens.

Just a random comment.

-Anna.

[jon1jt]

We should all aspire to these qualities - regardless of gender?

no, i disagree with that. men are from mars, women are from venus, don't you know? biological differences between men and women necessitate each gender's social habits and needs. men used to watch football with the guys, no girls.

beer guzzling was a man's enterprise until women hijacked it. it started with those wine coolers and margaritas. then women graduated up to real beer. now a sexy woman walks in a bar, pulls up a seat, rolls up her flannel sleeves and snarls, "Gimme a f'n Bud will ya?!"

[Shalot]

Let's define our terms: what does femininity mean?

Wikipedia defines it as such:

Femininity refers to qualities and behaviors judged by a particular culture to be ideally associated with or especially appropriate to women and girls. Distinct from femaleness, which is a biological and physiological classification concerned with the reproductive system, femininity principally refers to socially acquired traits and secondary sex characteristics. In Western culture femininity has traditionally included features such as gentleness, patience and kindness.[1][2]


I always associate feminity with the clothes they wear since women always wore dresses and men always wore pants, (and then later women starting wearing pants) and I wasn't far off the mark since according to that definition above, feminity refers to socially acquired traits, and the clothes we wear as women and men are dictated by the society we live in.

So yes, feminity is in part, a clothing/fashion issue, which is a huge industry and women spend lots of money on clothes and accessories. And in my opinion, women have to spend more money on clothes than men, and we all know women make 75 cents to every dollar a man makes. So I could argue that fashion is kind of a prison. Women can't build real wealth because society dictates that they spend their money on clothes. And women have to have more clothes than men. So maybe by saying "screw it" we are banking our money and then we take it one step further and start drinking dark beer and watching football (or I am just really reaching here).

I'll address gentleness, kindness, and patience later. (I have to go prepare for a job interview....)

[storybookauthor]

I guess I'm kind of slow on posting, since two posts popped up while i was typing the last one (multitasking...).

I'm kind of confused when you say the "strangely enough," because I have no idea what point you're referring to. I'm a little bit on the slow side today. .

What makes you think that women are copying behaviors, or make the generalization that only a small percentage of men are slobs while a large amount of women are losing their sense of femininity? I think a lot of the 18-35 age group that you mention may not have found their identity yet, and maybe they're trying other ones. Maybe it's a way to find their own individual.

We wouldn't be losing anything I guess if we were the first ones to drink beer all the time.

Maybe Freud is right and girls have penis envy. Or maybe you're right and we're lazy, since I'm still in my pajamas from this morning since I only worked on some stuff at home today. *shrugs*

More random comments.

Does anyone know what to do if it keeps saying that you're signed out? Because it does it like every five minutes, and close to driving me insane. I must be missing that patience part.

-Anna.

[Literary_Cat]

and strangely enough, there is still this fierce sense in women for maintaining a sense of individuality. can anyone reconcile that one for me?

I find that individualism is particularly American, rather than attached to one or another gender. True, women do tend to define themselves in terms of relationships ("mother of..." / "wife of..."), but Americans as a whole, I find, have a strong individualistic streak. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is probably too complex to define as merely good or bad...but all the same, jon, I don't see that individualism is something that needs to be "reconciled." I tend to follow the school that it ought to be cultivated and praised.

Fascinating thread.

[NikolaiI]

Does anyone know what to do if it keeps saying that you're signed out? Because it does it like every five minutes, and close to driving me insane. I must be missing that patience part.

-Anna.

For me it will work if I do the "remember my password" option. That was really annoying, and I lost a few posts I had written that way..

[Virgil]

Feminity is great and all, but some of it is rather restrictive. A woman who has a professional job has to take at least forty five minutes longer in the morning to get ready to go to work than a professional man. Granted, men usually have to shave in their morning, but they don't have to wash dry and style their hair, which can take an hour. Then there is the whole application of make-up which can take 15 minutes or longer, not to mention the prep time with the cleansing and the exfoliating and the moisturizing and under eye creme which women need since they have to wake up so early to do all this crap.

Then there are hose and slips and camisoles and undergarments woman have to wear under their work wear, which are all a pain in the rear and expensive too (you have to buy the right ones and the right ones are always expensive. and I bet as a man, OP, you have no idea what goes into shopping and pairing underwear with your clothes. I mean you probably think it's real easy, but there are certainly rules of underwear that I won't go into here but I am sure the ladies here know).

And men do not have to wear skirts so they don't have to worry as much about crossing their ankles when they sit. You can (for the most part) cross and uncross your legs without worry and splay yourselves across any comfortable sitting surface.

I suppose women can acheive a classy elegant feminine look without all the prep time, but it's harder than you think it is and if some women want to be a little more casual at work, then more power to them. It is very difficult to be comfortable in hose!

and that's my two cents. Too sum up, tradional feminine clothing is very restrictive and I hate it. And it's hard to think and perform when you're worried about all this CRAP which is what it is.

I have always said women have it tougher than men in many respects and Shalot here presents why. It is unfair, but I think women ought to be proud of the extra hurdles they overcome. Reducing oneself to the lowest common denominator in any endeavor never accomplishs anything worthwhile.

[storybookauthor]

Thanks. .

That makes sense.

-Anna.

[Shalot]

And men do not have to wear skirts so they don't have to worry as much about crossing their ankles when they sit. You can (for the most part) cross and uncross your legs without worry and splay yourselves across any comfortable sitting surface.

I want to add another thing here men - if you are going commando please be careful of how you sit if you are wearing loose shorts or shortish shorts. I know I said I was going to prepare for my interview but I don't want to psych myself out this time about it and I thought this was an important point.

But more important is this: maybe women aren't losing their sense of feminity. Maybe they're redefining the term? But see how far I've left to go in that I have to end my assertion with a question mark.

[Mortis Anarchy]

To tell you the truth...wow, its just so great, but I love being a girl. Even better, I love feeling sexy and in control...professional but unpredictable at the same time...on occassion, I've been known to let loose a naughty word...does that make me ungirlish? I don't spit, but, have any of you seen Big Daddy? Well, you know when Frankenstein spits and then sucks it back up...well I find that really entertaining...and yes, I have done that a few times. Even though I find it gross...I know thats weird.

Uhh, what else...I dunno...but you get the picture.

I like girly things. I like skirts, dresses, high heels...okay shoes in general. I paint my nails, do my hair...whatever. Does the fact that I do the above make me lose my feminity or whatever? I don't think so...

I hope I'm getting my point across...

But I have to agree with Shalot, maybe we are redefining it. I don't think there is anything wrong with, crap, I lost my train of thought....grrr...

But I think men have changed as well. What happened to good old chivalry and opening doors for the ladies...hmm?

[jon1jt]

What happened to good old chivalry and opening doors for the ladies...hmm?

maybe it ended when the good guys got the message that women fell for the guys that didn't open doors for them.

I want to add another thing here men - if you are going commando please be careful of how you sit if you are wearing loose shorts or shortish shorts. I know I said I was going to prepare for my interview but I don't want to psych myself out this time about it and I thought this was an important point.

But more important is this: maybe women aren't losing their sense of feminity. Maybe they're redefining the term? But see how far I've left to go in that I have to end my assertion with a question mark.

you got me giggling over here, shalot!

so many good thoughts.

my book calls me at the moment. i'll be back (i guess i'm sort of multitasking too.) lol

[Mortis Anarchy]

maybe it ended when the good guys got the message that women fell for the guys that didn't open doors for them.

Okay, you got me there

Yes the bad boy is rather attractive, to me it used to be...but not anymore.

and every girl likes a bit old fashion manners...and I'm sure you guys miss the old, stay at home mom housewife that doesn't flash her goods to the world or get totally wasted every single night...but hey you guys out there I don't think the entire population is like that

I hope I'm not speaking for myself...

[jon1jt]

I thought femininity just referred to what women were considered at whatever time, not set rules.

Paris Hilton isn't exactly what most girls aspire to. At least, I really doubt it. Basing what girls are from the tabloids doesn't seem like proper representation. If it is, then a lot of babies must've been eaten by aliens.

Just a random comment.

-Anna.

sure girls aspire to paris hilton or else she wouldn't be on every other pop mag cover. in the last 25 years, the three women most responsible for setting the trend that being a sleazy female is cool goes to:

1. Madonna
2. Courtney Love
3. Britney Spears