D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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03-04-2008, 05:45 PM
Janine

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I came into the group right after you finnished up the story
Odour Of Chrysanthamums

A shame you missed that one - it was a good one. You might want to read it on your own.
Geez, DM, haha...you are writing posts as long as mine now. Good for you!:thumbs_up

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I will eagery await to hear what Virgil has to say upon the subject, but your own explination did much to help my understanding on the subject. I can see what you mean in the comparrioson between Bertie and Maurice.

Yes, and if I talk to him on PM him, I will point it out to him, so he does not miss it. There is definitely a difference in the two men, as you talk about below. This difference is often seen in Lawrence's work and was definitely born from the fact his two parents were so very different and related to life differently. His mother would have represented the more intellectual aspect and his father actually the blood consciousness and the earthy aspect. There has been tons written on Lawrence's blood consciousness idea in his work and what formed it.

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Bertie is talked about as being much more of the intellectual and seems unconected with the physical world in someways, both in his lack of ablity to connect with people, as well as well you cannot picture Bertie getting his hands dirty.

Good, this is correct. Maurice has a greater affinity with the earth and the natural elements and his innate feelings and not his itellectual reasoning. He is more instinctive and not so 'guarded' as Bertie is.

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While Maurice, though he is said to be more slow, and is portrayed as perhaps not being as witty as Bertie is, he enjoys phyiscal labor, and has a strong connection to working with the earth. This could be a result of his blindness, as the need to really be hands on with the earth to reassure of himself of its exisitinces, and having to live in a different world, than Bertie, while Bertie might take these things for granted, sense he is part of the seeing world, there is the one comparrison Isabel gives:

"physical" is a key word here. Maurice is more physical and so this has been greater enhanced by his very blindness. You are right - Bertie takes his sight for granted, as most of us do. Good quote you provided.

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I underlined what I thought were the key phrases, Maurice is portrayed as being much more emotional than Bertie is as Bertie lives more in the world of the mind, or thoughts and ideas, while Maurice lives closer to the earth, and more in the physical world before him.

Yes, definitely so - more emotional and more connected to the earth and to his wife. This connection is so enhanced it can become too much at times....too overwhelming. Again - "physical world" is a good thing to point out. Bertie acts on intellect and reason whereas Maurice acts on instinct and animal motivation. If you notice he is more intune with the animals in the barn and out buildings. He is more intune with the smells and the darkness and the feel of the night. He 'feels' life. Bertie has not to ability to connect at this level and he has no concept of what it is like either. This 'feeling' is the blood-consciousness idea.

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Perhaps this is do to the fact that the world at large, is lost to Maurice becasue he cannot see it he can only know what is directly under him. While Bertie perhaps does not see what is right before him, becaue he can look far ahead of him. He is not so much tied to the present.

True and well put. Interesting thought.

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Yes that is a good point. In someways Isabel has a bit of an unfair advantage over her husband, there are ways in which a person can prohbiit thier sight, and yet there is know way a blind person can see. So his wife can in someways, become a part of his world, and to a degree experince what he experinces, but she has the knoweledge of being able to escape that as well. She is not trapped within it forever, and it allows the wife to become apart of both worlds, while her husband must only stay within his own dark world.

Exactly - Isabel can live in either world but Maurice cannot. Isabel can escape but Maurice is trapped forever in his sightless world.

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Yes this is quite true, and I think Isabel might have anxieites over wondering wheather having the child will lesson her husbands depression of if it will worsen it, and how she is going to find a balance between the two. The child could put an extra strain upon some of the struggles they are having now.

Absolutely agree. Hey, DM, we sure are agreeing a lot on this one...hehe..;) :lol: Glad you don't hate this woman. I picked the story out with you in-mind this time. I didn't want you to hate the character...;)

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I also found it interesting that as Isabel is getting ready to have her child, Maurice, begins to view himself as a child becasue of his dependency and sense of helplessness.

That is an interesting thought. I think that maybe men who have sight might also feel a little like this at times and also feel a little jealous of their wive's maternity or a little threatened. I have read it is so with some couples.

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Yes, you make a good point about the war, it is true, within this story we do not need any actual secnes of account of the war to see just how it can effect and ravish the lives of the people.

I kind of stole that from actual writings of Lawrence's about including ideas of war or the background being the atmosphere of the wartime and yet him not directly mentioning it. He did this in "Women in Love". We discussed it somewhat in that thread awhile back.

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As you get the impression, from the fact that they did try to have a child before, and how they are dealing with their problems now, that they were always a happy loving couple but now the affects of the war has reached into thier lives and has threatened thier exisitince together. Put a marr on thier happiness, and what could have been the picture of a "perfect" family. In the way that Maurice has been scared, there has been a scar put on thier happiness and life together. Something that will never go away even if it can be overcome or worked around.

Plus they must have anxiety knowing they lost the first child. Yes, the war did put a scar or a mar on the relationship. It had to. I think one would not be human if it did not have some effect. It won't go away ever, they must learn to deal with it. That is all anyone can hope to do.

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I wonder with the discussion of Maurice's depression within the story, and the dark moods that sometimes come over him, was there knowledge of PTSD (Post tramatic stress disorder) doing the time period in which the story was written?

I don't know if that was recognised then but I think that physcological disorders such as that were being highly explored during Lawrence's time. I would venture to say that this man was suffering some effects of that but oddly enough from things I have read many of the men in WWI or II would not really open up and talk to their families about their wartime experiences. I think, as a sort of survival mechanism, they just stored it away in the deep recesses of their minds, otherwise they would be daily haunted by unspeakable things they had seen. I don't think anyone could go through a war and be in combat without the after-effects of that experience and without periods of slipping into depression; compile this with the fact, that daily, this man, Maurice, is reminded of it due to his disability and he has more than enough reason for his reactions at times.

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Yes that is very true. It was a very real moment, as well as the fact, that even though they do not really care for each other. Maurcie is able in a way to confinde in Bertie, what perhaps, he fears to speak of with his wife. He can share the fears with the unlikely ally, he does not want Isabel to know he has.

Oddly enough this scene seems to parallel a part of "Sons and Lovers" when Clara's husband and Paul are as mortal enemies but then eventually the two men see things differently and actually become close and confide in one another. It is as though they both recognise the fact they are both suffering from some element lacking in their lives - some flaw they can't seem to escape from. I guess they find solace in this and so eventually reach out to one another. Actually, Paul befriends Claira's husband. Her the befriending is being instigated by Maurice. In both cases these men are deficient in some way and unable to connect to other humans, women in particular. They both lack wholeness.
03-04-2008, 07:35 PM
Dark Muse

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Originally Posted by Janine

A shame you missed that one - it was a good one. You might want to read it on your own.

I might have read it before, I know for school once I had to read a story about Chrysanthamums, but I cannot swear it was the some one, as I do not remember that well, but I shall defninetly like to read it on my own sometime.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, definitely so - more emotional and more connected to the earth and to his wife. This connection is so enhanced it can become too much at times....too overwhelming. Again - "physical world" is a good thing to point out. Bertie acts on intellect and reason whereas Maurice acts on instinct and animal motivation. If you notice he is more intune with the animals in the barn and out buildings. He is more intune with the smells and the darkness and the feel of the night. He 'feels' life. Bertie has not to ability to connect at this level and he has no concept of what it is like either. This 'feeling' is the blood-consciousness idea.

Yes, I got that feeling of perhaps being a bit overwheling by the fact that he was called over-senstive, and that it was descibred as being wincing at times. As this seems to indicate that his connection perhaps both to the physical world and his world and his wife, can be almost painful at times, he is so reliant upon it.

Yes, I also noticed how much he seems to like to escape into the barn when he needs to get away. It seems to give him a certain peace to be there among the animals, and in his own dark world, without being confronted by the world of sight.

It is true about Bertie, he comes off as being almost insenstive in someways, but I do not get the feeling he does this on purpose, but that he is just simply clueless to how he comes off in his inablity to really sympathize with someone elses point of view.

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Absolutely agree. Hey, DM, we sure are agreeing a lot on this one...hehe..;) :lol: Glad you don't hate this woman. I picked the story out with you in-mind this time. I didn't want you to hate the character...;)

I know it is scary, isn't it? LOL, really I did not truly dislike any of the chars in this story, perhaps I was not the biggist fan of Bertie, but I don't really hate him.

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Originally Posted by Janine

That is an interesting thought. I think that maybe men who have sight might also feel a little like this at times and also feel a little jealous of their wive's maternity or a little threatened. I have read it is so with some couples.

Yes that makes sense, as they now have to share some of the attention and affection which once was soely theres.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I don't know if that was recognised then but I think that physcological disorders such as that were being highly explored during Lawrence's time. I would venture to say that this man was suffering some effects of that but oddly enough from things I have read many of the men in WWI or II would not really open up and talk to their families about their wartime experiences. I think, as a sort of survival mechanism, they just stored it away in the deep recesses of their minds, otherwise they would be daily haunted by unspeakable things they had seen. I don't think anyone could go through a war and be in combat without the after-effects of that experience and without periods of slipping into depression; compile this with the fact, that daily, this man, Maurice, is reminded of it due to his disability and he has more than enough reason for his reactions at times.

Yes, this is very true, and this is something of which I have first hand experince with. My boyfriend was in Iraq, and was sent home becasue of injuries he sustained, and he suffers from PTSD, and infact, though he is not completly blind, one of the affects of his injuries, as his vision. He has very low vision now, in such a way that it does impact his daily life and a lot of some of the things he use to be able to do, he cannot anylonger

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Originally Posted by Janine

Oddly enough this scene seems to parallel a part of "Sons and Lovers" when Clara's husband and Paul are as mortal enemies but then eventually the two men see things differently and actually become close and confide in one another. It is as though they both recognise the fact they are both suffering from some element lacking in their lives - some flaw they can't seem to escape from. I guess they find solace in this and so eventually reach out to one another. Actually, Paul befriends Claira's husband. Her the befriending is being instigated by Maurice. In both cases these men are deficient in some way and unable to connect to other humans, women in particular. They both lack wholeness.

Very good point, yes that is quite true, nice job pointing that out. Both the men are lacking something in the world, and it seems that what the one lacks, the other has, though in this case, I am not so sure that Maurice's attempted friendship, is going to be fully returned by Bertie.

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From the first the two men did not like each other. Isabel felt that they ought to get on together. But they did not. She felt that if only each could have the clue to the other there would be such rare understanding between them. It did not come off, however. Bertie adopted a slightly ironical attitude, very offensive to Maurice, who returned the Scotch irony with English resentment, a resentment which deepend sometimes into stupid hatred.

I found it a bit intresting how Isabel felt so certain that they should be friends with each other, there is almost a sort of prophacy in her statement that

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She felt that if only each could have the clue to the other there would be such rare understanding between them.

As this seems to suggest that secen that is to come later in the story, when the two finaly do connect to each other.
03-04-2008, 08:39 PM
Quark

This story reminds me of Virginia Woolf's book, The Waves. Just like in that novel, we have these people with vastly different personalities all wishing they could have what each other have. Bertie wants to be as intimate and sexual as Maurice can be, and Maurice wants to be as interesting and charming as Bertie. Isabel wants both men, and she wants to be a mother.

I think someone else mentioned the ending being surprising, and I have to agree. I really didn't expect this one to end with a reconciliation and an almost happy ending. Everything seemed to be moving toward crisis. It really had a tragic look to it until the very end.
03-04-2008, 09:08 PM
Virgil

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Originally Posted by Janine

Geez, DM, haha...you are writing posts as long as mine now. Good for you!:thumbs_up ...
Absolutely agree. Hey, DM, we sure are agreeing a lot on this one...hehe..;) :lol:

Hey you two are getting along way too well this time around. That's not allowed. ;) You're supposed to be disagreeing so i can come in and break the tie. :p :lol:
03-04-2008, 09:43 PM
Dark Muse

LOL sorry Virgil
03-04-2008, 11:30 PM
Janine

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Hey you two are getting along way too well this time around. That's not allowed. ;) You're supposed to be disagreeing so i can come in and break the tie. :p :lol:

Hahahaha:lol: Yeah right.....I kind of like the peace....don't pay attention to him, DM! ;) :lol:

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This story reminds me of Virginia Woolf's book, The Waves. Just like in that novel, we have these people with vastly different personalities all wishing they could have what each other have. Bertie wants to be as intimate and sexual as Maurice can be, and Maurice wants to be as interesting and charming as Bertie. Isabel wants both men, and she wants to be a mother.

What??? are you joking, Quark? I am not too sure about this post of yours. :brow: :confused: I would say that is simplifying things a bit. I didn't read "The Waves" so I can't really compare the two. I don't see that Bertie has a desire to be intimate and sexual as Maurice is at all. Where are you getting that idea from, Quark? I don't think Isabel wants both men in quite the same way. Bertie is not even described as being very physically appealing.

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I think someone else mentioned the ending being surprising, and I have to agree. I really didn't expect this one to end with a reconciliation and an almost happy ending. Everything seemed to be moving toward crisis. It really had a tragic look to it until the very end.

Yes, I think it was actually Pensive who said that, or it might have been Dark Muse. Yes, the ending did take a surprising left turn. I liked it doing so - kind of woke up the reader and made you take notice.;)
03-05-2008, 02:23 AM
Dark Muse

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Originally Posted by Janine

What??? are you joking, Quark? I am not too sure about this post of yours. :brow: :confused: I would say that is simplifying things a bit. I didn't read "The Waves" so I can't really compare the two. I don't see that Bertie has a desire to be intimate and sexual as Maurice is at all. Where are you getting that idea from, Quark? I don't think Isabel wants both men in quite the same way. Bertie is not even described as being very physically appealing.

Though I do not think she wants both men in the same way, I really do not think that she has any desire, attraction to Bertie, as she even says, that she patronizes him, and has contempt for him. But at the same time, I can kind of see what Quark is saying. She wants different things form both men. She still wants her friendship with Bertie, and she wants his worldiness, his intellect and perhaps someone to share in the world of sight with her.

But she wants the close intimacy that Maurice can give her as well. But I do think that she intends to keep her relationship with Bertie completely platonic.

And there is one point in which Bertie says:

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He was ashamed of himself, becasue he could not marry, could not apporach women physicaly. He wanted to do so. But could not. At the center of him he was afriad, helplessly and even brutally afraid. He had given up hope, had ceased to exepct any more that he would escape his own weakness.

This seems to express that he does have the desire to form more normal and intimate relastionships, but cannot get over his anxiety to do so.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, I think it was actually Pensive who said that, or it might have been Dark Muse. Yes, the ending did take a surprising left turn. I liked it doing so - kind of woke up the reader and made you take notice.;)

LOL I said the ending was creepy
03-05-2008, 03:16 PM
Quark

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Originally Posted by Janine

What??? are you joking, Quark? I am not too sure about this post of yours. :brow: :confused: I would say that is simplifying things a bit. I didn't read "The Waves" so I can't really compare the two. I don't see that Bertie has a desire to be intimate and sexual as Maurice is at all. Where are you getting that idea from, Quark? I don't think Isabel wants both men in quite the same way. Bertie is not even described as being very physically appealing.

Well, yeah Isabel doesn't want both of them for the same reason. She's much more physically attracted to Maurice; but, let's face it, Maurice is a bit of a stick in the mud. He can hardly carry on a civil conversation for more than a few words. Bertie is the much more talkative, friendly sort of man that Isabel would like to talk to. Which would be great for Bertie except the fact that he feels emasculated by his own timidity. And, he wants to find some real intimacy. Lawrence phrases it like this:

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He was ashamed of himself, because he could not marry, could not approach women physically. He wanted to do so. But he could not. At the centre of him he was afraid, helplessly and even brutally afraid. He had given up hope, had ceased to expect any more that he could escape his own weakness. Hence he was a brilliant and successful barrister, also litterateur of high repute, a rich man, and a great social success. At the centre he felt himself neuter, nothing...She [Isabel] looked at his dark grey eyes, with their uncanny, almost childlike intuition, and she loved him. He understood amazingly--but she had no fear of his understanding. As a man she patronized him.

Maurice, in his turn, has his own problems. He wants Isabel, but she's busy being a mom and talking to Bertie.

So, concisely, that's why I'm saying there's this unhappy triangle of unfulfilled desires.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

LOL I said the ending was creepy

The end is kind of creepy isn't it. The whole Bertie feeling up Maurice's eye socket was pretty weird; but, at the same time, I thought it worked to show them connecting.
03-05-2008, 03:48 PM
Janine

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Though I do not think she wants both men in the same way, I really do not think that she has any desire, attraction to Bertie, as she even says, that she patronizes him, and has contempt for him. But at the same time, I can kind of see what Quark is saying. She wants different things form both men. She still wants her friendship with Bertie, and she wants his worldiness, his intellect and perhaps someone to share in the world of sight with her.

Yeah, but before Quark says Isabel wants both men; Q stated this:
Quote by Quark:

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Bertie wants to be as intimate and sexual as Maurice can be, and Maurice wants to be as interesting and charming as Bertie. Isabel wants both men, and she wants to be a mother.

I don't think this is true at all. Maurice does not desire to be like Bertie, nor Bertie like Maurice. It may be possible Bertie would like being able to connect with women, but he does not desire to take on the role of Maurice. At least I don't see it that way at all. But then who knows. I still think to think that way is projecting too much into what they desire.

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But she wants the close intimacy that Maurice can give her as well. But I do think that she intends to keep her relationship with Bertie completely platonic.

Definitely agree......oh no, DM, we are agreeing again.;) :lol:

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And there is one point in which Bertie says:

I didn't requote that, but it is a good one to point out. I see Quark quoted the same part but with a few more lines. This passage says a great deal about Bertie.

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This seems to express that he does have the desire to form more normal and intimate relastionships, but cannot get over his anxiety to do so.

Yes, and I think he is pychologically deficient in being able to connect intimately with a woman. He wanted it but could not achieve it.

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LOL I said the ending was creepy

Yes, Dark Muse, true, you did say that it was 'creepy', but it was Pensive who said it was a surprise ending - in post #1092

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Last night, I managed to read the story. Really liked it a lot though of course it did ruin my predictions that I had created in my mind's eye. The ending was totally unexpected for me as I had not expected the two men one of whom resented the other who never let the chance of mocking him pass to be friends again. But the whole scene in the end, the start of their 'friendship' and the feelings of Bertie I guess made up the most interesting part of the story, unexpected though it might be for me. Sometimes surprises are good too.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Well, yeah Isabel doesn't want both of them for the same reason. She's much more physically attracted to Maurice; but, let's face it, Maurice is a bit of a stick in the mud. He can hardly carry on a civil conversation for more than a few words. Bertie is the much more talkative, friendly sort of man that Isabel would like to talk to. Which would be great for Bertie except the fact that he feels emasculated by his own timidity. And, he wants to find some real intimacy. Lawrence phrases it like this:

Ok, now is you turn, Quark, sorry I did not post last night. We had a big storm here and I had to shut down early. I don't take chances after I had a modem burned out from one thunderstorm.
Yes, I would suppose that Maurice is a bit of a stick in the mud. He seems to want Isabel all to himself and he is of course somewhat insecure when she does not indulge him, giving her full attention on him. In someways it is true he acts as a child now and yet the promise of a real child entering their lives is probably a big factor in complicating the couple's life. I think normal couples feel a little uneasy at times about the approach of a third person in their marriage and the child is that addition they will have to adjust to. It will no longer be an exclusive household of just two lovers.
Yes, Bertie definitely represents to Lawrenc the other aspect of the intellectual/logical thinker, such as Lawrence's own mother. His father corresponds so much more to his father who related to life in a much more visceral/physical way.

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Maurice, in his turn, has his own problems. He wants Isabel, but she's busy being a mom and talking to Bertie.

Exactly and now he is feeling threatened to be left out of his wife's seeing world. Soon the child will share that 'seeing' world as well and so he will definitely be feeling some bit of exclusion. For now when Bertie and Isabel converse at the table he is not of their 'seeing' world. It is understandable that after a time he can't relate and therefore retreats to the barn to immerse himself in his own 'sightless' world again.

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So, concisely, that's why I'm saying there's this unhappy triangle of unfulfilled desires.

Yes, this I agree upon. But it is not a triangle that will last past the short visit of Bertie I believe, unless Bertie makes a point of coming often to see Isabel. I feel that the ending is, as Dark Muse has pointed out, scared Bertie away somewhat. I guess time will tell, and we will never know.;)

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The end is kind of creepy isn't it. The whole Bertie feeling up Maurice's eye socket was pretty weird; but, at the same time, I thought it worked to show them connecting.

It felt shocking to me. But I think that if it were an experience with a blind person I knew I would feel repulsion and shock at first, so that I think Lawrence now introducing this part into the story and so late in the story is achieving just what he intended it to achieve. He has not included the reader in the experience of being presented with something truly ugly and something which was brought about by the horror of war. Like I said before, there is an element of war in this story and yet Lawrence adeptly has not mentioned the word that I know of. He only said "Flanders" which conjures up enough horror in our minds if we have seen films/documentaries of the First World War. The shunken eye sockets and the deep scar are symbols in this story of the horror of war and it's effect on humanity. I think the writing is quite brilliant in this last part.
03-05-2008, 07:03 PM
Dark Muse

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Originally Posted by Janine

I don't think this is true at all. Maurice does not desire to be like Bertie, nor Bertie like Maurice. It may be possible Bertie would like being able to connect with women, but he does not desire to take on the role of Maurice. At least I don't see it that way at all. But then who knows. I still think to think that way is projecting too much into what they desire.

Though I do not think that Maurice wants to be like Bertie, as it has been discussed I do think that Bertie does wish he could have more normal relationships. Perhaps not to be just like Maurice is, and I really do not think he would want to try and go after Isabel.

And didn't say somewhere that they were cousins?

But I think he would like to have the ablity to have the kind of relationship that Maurice and Isabel have.
03-05-2008, 07:10 PM
Janine

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Though I do not think that Maurice wants to be like Bertie, as it has been discussed I do think that Bertie does wish he could have more normal relationships. Perhaps not to be just like Maurice is, and I really do not think he would want to try and go after Isabel.

I agree with that.

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And didn't say somewhere that they were cousins?

I don't recall the mention of cousins. Whose cousins were they? I will review the text.
But I think he would like to have the ablity to have the kind of relationship that Maurice and Isabel have.

Probably he would, but not to emulate Maurice. Bertie would like a connection to women but can't achieve it because of something emotionally deficient within himself.

How odd Lawrence would call him Bertie. Lawrence's nickname while growing up was Bert.
03-05-2008, 07:53 PM
Dark Muse

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Originally Posted by Janine

I don't recall the mention of cousins. Whose cousins were they? I will review the text.

Here it is:

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She sighed with fear. But this time Bertie Reid wrote to Isabel. He was her old friend, a second or third cousin, a Scotchman, and she was a Scotchwoman.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Probably he would, but not to emulate Maurice. Bertie would like a connection to women but can't achieve it because of something emotionally deficient within himself.

Yes I agree with that, I think he would want it, but only for his own personal satifaction.

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Originally Posted by Janine

How odd Lawrence would call him Bertie. Lawrence's nickname while growing up was Bert.

That is interesting
03-05-2008, 08:46 PM
Virgil

Oh how depressing. You three are so far in front of me. I have no way to catch up. :( I'm just too tired. I wanted to finish The Name of the Rose and get into Dubliners but I'll never gtet there. :bawling:
03-05-2008, 08:58 PM
Dark Muse

*gives Virgil a pat on the back*
03-05-2008, 09:25 PM
Janine

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Oh how depressing. You three are so far in front of me. I have no way to catch up. :( I'm just too tired. I wanted to finish The Name of the Rose and get into Dubliners but I'll never gtet there. :bawling:

Oh Virgil, so sorry - our little brains just got so full of great ideas we could not hold back. If you miss this story, I will discuss it with you anytime. It is only the 5th of the month though; we did get pretty far, didn't we. I think if when you can find the time, you were to read the posts and then add your bit that would be great. I was hoping you could give us some personal experience with living with a blind person since your father went blind at an older age. I am sure you have good first hand insight into what is is like for the person one loves.

Do you mean to tell me you are still discussing "Name of the Rose" - did you finish reading it yet? I commented briefly in "Dubliners", but guess what? I can seem to locate my book. Are the stories on this site, do you know? I should check that out. Are you also still discussing "The Aeneid? If so you get a pat on the back from me,;) too!

I am kind of bogged down myself, trying to discuss "Tale of Two Cities", no time limit; Chekhov - that is going well with "Misery" and soon we will also discuss "Oh! The Public". Chekhov stories seems simplier and shorter than L stories, so we are doing two this month. I want to get back to listening to the second half of WIL on my MP3 player; remember I had put that on hold? I was going to go back and get the audiobook of "The Name of the Rose" tonight, but I am too tired out and it is late. Library closes at 9:00. Trouble is one of the tapes is messed up and won't play right so I don't know if I should just abandon that idea for now. Maybe I have enough on my plate without worrying about that book, too.
03-06-2008, 06:26 AM
Pensive

I am sorry guys for the delay in posting. Now I have tried I go through all these posts, but I would have to say I had to skim a little bit (or probably quite a bit) so don't be angry at me if I have missed something. :p

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Bertie wants to be as intimate and sexual as Maurice can be, and Maurice wants to be as interesting and charming as Bertie. Isabel wants both men, and she wants to be a mother.

By what I have read in the story, I get no hint that Maurice and Bertie want to be like each other. As for Isabel wanting both men, yes, of course she does but I think in different ways. As someone pointed out here that she probably wants Bertie in a most platonic way, I woulld agree with it, though of course who knows what's going on deep inside their minds as Janine puts it too. As far as I can see in the story, it doesn't seem like that though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Exactly and now he is feeling threatened to be left out of his wife's seeing world. Soon the child will share that 'seeing' world as well and so he will definitely be feeling some bit of exclusion. For now when Bertie and Isabel converse at the table he is not of their 'seeing' world. It is understandable that after a time he can't relate and therefore retreats to the barn to immerse himself in his own 'sightless' world again.

Very well-put. Did this paragraph bring tears in somebody's eyes? It really made me feel bad for Maurice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Like I said before, there is an element of war in this story and yet Lawrence adeptly has not mentioned the word that I know of. He only said "Flanders" which conjures up enough horror in our minds if we have seen films/documentaries of the First World War. The shunken eye sockets and the deep scar are symbols in this story of the horror of war and it's effect on humanity.

I am not sure if I think so (Cheer up Virgil, you can take it as a disagreement :p) though of course it's fascinating to find deeper meaning or different books symbolizing something else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

I think the writing is quite brilliant in this last part.

Yes, here I whole-heartedly agree with you! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

How odd Lawrence would call him Bertie. Lawrence's nickname while growing up was Bert.

Now that's a really interesting piece of information you provided us, Janine. Can it be that Bertie was influenced by Bert (Lawrence himself)? The story might be related to some part of Lawrence's own story, can it be? Now these are questions I have been forced to ask myself....we have seen that in places Lawrence has used a part of 'himself' in his stories....I wonder if it can be over here too....Hmmm.
03-06-2008, 08:29 AM
Virgil

Hey I just read it last night. First reading so I'm not up on all the points. I won't get into real detail until I read it again. So comments are just initial reactions. I could change my mind later. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pensive

By what I have read in the story, I get no hint that Maurice and Bertie want to be like each other. As for Isabel wanting both men, yes, of course she does but I think in different ways. As someone pointed out here that she probably wants Bertie in a most platonic way, I woulld agree with it, though of course who knows what's going on deep inside their minds as Janine puts it too. As far as I can see in the story, it doesn't seem like that though.

I agree with Pensy. I don't catch the any sexuality between Isabel and Bertie. I find Isabel completely in love and devoted to Maurice.

Quote:

I am not sure if I think so (Cheer up Virgil, you can take it as a disagreement :p) though of course it's fascinating to find deeper meaning or different books symbolizing something else.

Oh it wasn't me who said anything about the war. The war is a factor in the story, but I'm not sure how much of a factor. The only factor it seems to be for me is that it has heightened Maurice's insight into life. I don't really see this story as anti war or having anti war implications. So I lean more to Pensy's view.

Quote:

Now that's a really interesting piece of information you provided us, Janine. Can it be that Bertie was influenced by Bert (Lawrence himself)? The story might be related to some part of Lawrence's own story, can it be? Now these are questions I have been forced to ask myself....we have seen that in places Lawrence has used a part of 'himself' in his stories....I wonder if it can be over here too....Hmmm.

Very interesting he calls Lawrence calls him Bertie. Yes, his nickname was Bertie. But I found this character to be almost completely based on Bertram Russell, like I mentioned a few pages back. His full name is Bertie Reid, almost sounds like it. And it is somewhat suggested he's homosexual, like Bertram Russell. If you can find that post I wrote a few pages back you'll see that Lawrence and Russell were friends until they had this famous falling out, and it was somewhat over Russell's homosexuality. The Lawrence/Russell relationship obviously is important in this story, so i'll have to dig up that famous letter. I think I quoted it way back in this thread for another story or perhaps it was in the Women In Love thread. But it is very significant to this story.
03-06-2008, 12:30 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Oh it wasn't me who said anything about the war. The war is a factor in the story, but I'm not sure how much of a factor. The only factor it seems to be for me is that it has heightened Maurice's insight into life. I don't really see this story as anti war or having anti war implications. So I lean more to Pensy's view.

Well I think the story shows the simple reality of the after-math of war, though I do not think it is ment to be political in anyway, but it gives the point of view of one family that will forever be affected by war.
03-06-2008, 03:17 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Well I think the story shows the simple reality of the after-math of war, though I do not think it is ment to be political in anyway, but it gives the point of view of one family that will forever be affected by war.

Hi Everyone - wow, all showed up today, great!

Yes, DM,and when one family member is affected by war or even some other disability that wasn't caused by a war - maybe an accident or illness - then the whole family is affected. There is a common syndrome, whereby the disabled person has a sense of 'guilt', and can't always get into the center of that guilt or name it. There can be various reasons they feel this profound 'guilt'. Maybe they feel, if only they could have prevented themselves from being 'damaged', they would not have hurt their loved ones. I think in this case, when Maurice becomes depressed, he feels this and he realises his impact on Isabel's life, and now he must also feel it even more with the anticipation of being a parent, a blind parent as it turned out. Maybe Maurice feels he will be inadequate for his child, as well. I really feel for his concerns and his sadness. It can't be an easy thing to deal with. His life now has 'limitations' and in someways, he knows he must depend on his wife. I think if one has experienced this part of life - being faced with disability and knowing now, that they were not as they had once been, then there is a feeling of inadequecy; it may not be evident daily, but it surfaces from time to time...definitely....and it never truly goes away. In this way I felt the war was a background to the story but definitely not a key factor. I felt that Maurice could also have been injured in an accident - maybe a pit accident or something else and this would be similiar, however I think the fact that Lawrence did write that he had been injured at "Flanders" brought this war idea into the story. I think Lawrence intentionally did this in this story and also in WIL. Lawrence, himself stated in the 'Introduction' to "Women in Love" that the novel was written in 'wartime', but never is war emphasised directly in the novel, however the idea of it is definitely there.

When people are injured in war (or otherwise) they may appear to be totally adjusted to that disability and yet there is a 'deep-seeded' regret that they were ever injured and altered, and they say there is a sense of 'anger', as well. How can it be otherwise?

Therefore I feel that Maurice's feelings are very multilayered and complex. It is not a simplistic thing to figure Maurice or his actions out. We are of the 'seeing' world and therefore, we have no true concept of what he is going through.

Hi Pensive and hi Virgil, glad you guys are back. Virgil, I am also in the midst of re-reading the story. I stopped when I got to the part that talked of the blood philosophy. I was hoping you would speak more about that since that is something you know more about than I do; or at least you seem to be able to express it better in words than I can.
Virgil, yes, do post that letter if you can find it. I do think you posted that in the WIL discussion. Do you know what year it took place - I could look it up.

Pensive, yes I do in someway think Lawrence sees himself in characters often or part of himself. I don't think he is like Bertie but it might be his intellectual, conversational side is somewhat more like Bertie than like Maurice. It was just a thought that he had been called 'Bert' as a young man. I find it equally interesting that Bertrum Russell was actually nicknamed 'Bertie'. That may end up having more significance to the story. Perhaps if indeed Bertie is perceived as gay then he would be totally deficient as a potential lover to Isabel but never do I get the impression that Isabel wants him as a lover, so I don't see the real significance of thinking of Bertie as being gay or just a man who can't connect with others - men or woman - on a deeper level, a 'blood conscious' level.

I want to make this clear. I never said that Isabel desired Bertie in a physical or sexual way. I feel totally sure that she only wanted a 'platonic' relationship with Bertie. Bertie makes up the part that Maurice lacks in verbal communication, conversation, intellect, etc., but Isabel is drawn sexually and in the deep blood conscious connection to her husband, who she most passionately and deeply loves. She wants no other lover but her husband, wh she is dedicated to.
03-07-2008, 10:23 PM
Janine

Where is everyone???
03-07-2008, 10:37 PM
Dark Muse

I was starting to wonder that too, maybe when I get the chance, I can go over the story again and try and find some different points which I could bring up. Many of the passages I had origninaly highlighted have already been discussed but I can take another look over it.
03-07-2008, 10:46 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I was starting to wonder that too, maybe when I get the chance, I can go over the story again and try and find some different points which I could bring up. Many of the passages I had origninaly highlighted have already been discussed but I can take another look over it.

How funny - we must have ESP, DM. I was wondering where you were - that is why I asked where everyone was. I know Virgil won't be here - he went to his sister's for the weekend; long drive there; he will be back next week though to comment.

That would be great, DM, if you could look the story over again. I also need to finish my second reading, so take your time. I just like to check to make sure no one dropped out completely; so my inquiry was really just that -curiousity and keeping tabs ;)

When I was re-reading the story the other night, I stopped at the part when Maurice came in from the barn. I need to progress with that and I am also in the middle of a story for the "Dubliners" thread. I am wondering where everyone is in there, as well. Only Niamh seems to be faithful so far. I guess I have to be patient - they will show up eventually.
03-07-2008, 10:56 PM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Where is everyone???

Oh, we're here--just having hard time keeping up. So many and such long posts make it slow work for the responses. There's so much to respond to. Anyway, I'll post something Saturday.
03-08-2008, 04:04 AM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

Oh, we're here--just having hard time keeping up. So many and such long posts make it slow work for the responses. There's so much to respond to. Anyway, I'll post something Saturday.

Quark, I know what you mean, trying to keep up. I am a little tired out now myself and was taking a bit of a break, but wondered where everyone ran off to. The thread was beginning to disappear when I put it into search - was on the second page. If you can post some more comments tomorrow, or the next day, that would be great. I will go and check out the Chekhov now, but it is late.
03-08-2008, 11:00 AM
Pensive

So are we going to do the usual practice of posting different parts from the story and commenting on them? This time it seems like all the important things have already been discussed. :p
03-08-2008, 03:44 PM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

The thread was beginning to disappear when I put it into search - was on the second page.

What an insult to put THE D.H. Lawrence thread on the second page! Shouldn't this thread be permanently on top? I never understand how the search result listings work. It's pretty random.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pensive

So are we going to do the usual practice of posting different parts from the story and commenting on them? This time it seems like all the important things have already been discussed. :p

Yeah, I second that--well, everything but the part about exhausting all the discussion topics. Let's get some chunks of text to comment on.
03-08-2008, 04:55 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

What an insult to put THE D.H. Lawrence thread on the second page! Shouldn't this thread be permanently on top? I never understand how the search result listings work. It's pretty random. At least with the thread being somewhat buried, we won't get those people just looking for paper topics at the last second.

Quark, I have to address this thread briefly, before I head over to that 'BIG' challenge in the Chekhov thread.
Ok, then, Quark, it certainly is an insult, especially when the thread "What are you thinking?" comes on the first page consistently; but don't you worry, I will keep this thread on the first page if it kills me!!!:D :lol:

Quote by Pensive:

Quote:

I saw someone today fishing for some D.H. Lawrence info to fill a paper with.

Ok, smart aleck, was this part a joke? Was it ME you are referring to?
Quote by Quark:

Quote:

So are we going to do the usual practice of posting different parts from the story and commenting on them? This time it seems like all the important things have already been discussed.

Hi Pensive, glad you joined the group.

Yes, definitely, Pensive and Quark. If you can be patient, I promise to post some soon, probably tonight. Last night at 3:30AM I read some more of the story and thought I would post those parts for discussion today; I had some good ideas on that part of the text and thought it would be good to get feedback from all of you as well. In fact, I stopped myself from finishing the story again, so that I could form some ideas on the parts I read up to and then post that tonight. I can't do it presently, because I have to address the Chekhov thread and then I will post more chunks of the story tonight - promise. Can you all wait for me till then? I know mostly what I wish to point out about those parts, or at least I did know last night.

Quote:

Yeah, I second that--well, everything but the part about exhausting all the discussion topics. Let's get some chunks of text to comment on.

Quark, We haven't yet exhausted the discussion topics. I could see that last night from my continued reading. As I said I will post more tonight. Hang-in there gang, or just randomly post more of your thoughts until I get to my post.
03-09-2008, 01:21 AM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Ok, then, Quark, it certainly is an insult, especially when the thread "What are you thinking?" comes on the first page consistently; but don't you worry, I will keep this thread on the first page if it kills me!!!:D :lol:

As long as we're in front of the "What are you eating/drinking right now" thread, we're alright. It probably wouldn't look good if literature took a back seat to food.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Ok, smart aleck, was this part a joke? Was it ME you are referring to?

No, it wasn't meant to be egata te, "toward you." I was talking about the person you were talking too, who I thought was just looking for paper ideas. I must have misread the post, though, because it wasn't anything like that. I got rid of my jab.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, definitely, Pensive and Quark. If you can be patient, I promise to post some soon, probably tonight. Last night at 3:30AM I read some more of the story and thought I would post those parts for discussion today; I had some good ideas on that part of the text and thought it would be good to get feedback from all of you as well. In fact, I stopped myself from finishing the story again, so that I could form some ideas on the parts I read up to and then post that tonight. I can't do it presently, because I have to address the Chekhov thread and then I will post more chunks of the story tonight - promise. Can you all wait for me till then? I know mostly what I wish to point out about those parts, or at least I did know last night.

Whenever you get time, Janine. I know you've already promised to kill yourself for the thread, but really there's no rush.

Oh, and thanks for the post on Chekhov. It looked like you put some thought into it. I can't say if I'm going to have time tonight to respond.
03-09-2008, 03:22 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

As long as we're in front of the "What are you eating/drinking right now" thread, we're alright. It probably wouldn't look good if literature took a back seat to food.

Yeah - really, just so we beat out eating/drinking thread! Well, I sure wish Literature would lead the way.

Quote:

No, it wasn't meant to be egata te, "toward you." I was talking about the person you were talking too, who I thought was just looking for paper ideas. I must have misread the post, though, because it wasn't anything like that. I got rid of my jab.

Oh ok, but to be honest with you, I am not clear on what you are talking about, Quark, in this reference, and I don't have the energy to go back and look up your post I was commenting on. It truly wasn't very important.
Here is what happened to me last night and why I did not return to post. About 5 PM here all the lights went out which meant our heat as well. We have hotwater heat but it is powered by electricity. I was put quite out of commission for the entire night. We all sat around, after we scared up enough candles to half see in the house, and waited for the cold night to set in. Truly it was an ordeal since is was so windy out and the temperature dropped dramatically overnight. I know poor Pensive goes through power-outages all the time, so now I can fully sympathise with you, P. Our heat and electricity was not restored till 16 hours later - Brrrrr.
This is why I could not post, as I had promised. Right now, I will have to take my time in this thread and delay the part I told you I would post. I am a bit frazzled and tired and I feel like my cold is getting worse again. Therefore----

Quote:

Whenever you get time, Janine. I know you've already promised to kill yourself for the thread, but really there's no rush.

It will have to be so today, a slight delay. We might lose our power again, since many areas are without it, and the utility companies are busy trying to restore all power; who knows - ours could go out again temporarily; also it is still quite windy out. At least I was able to cook my breakfast!

So here is the option - either post some thoughts on the next section or wait for me to do so. I was going to post the part when the visitor and the couple were eating at the table, but if you wait I can do that either tonight or tomorrow and comment as well. No, Quark, I am not that dedicated to 'kill' myself over this thread or the Chekhov one;) . I just am trying to do my best, but I am only human!:lol:

Quote:

Oh, and thanks for the post on Chekhov. It looked like you put some thought into it. I can't say if I'm going to have time tonight to respond.

Quark, so glad I did post when I did, in both threads, considering the rest of my cold/dark boring evening. Only thing I can say for that was, since there was so little one could do in the dark, I listened to all of the Chekhov CD set and enjoyed it very much. Glad I bought it. I will comment more about it in the Chekhov thread in a few minutes. See you over there.

And sorry I am holding everyone up. I will post soon....
03-09-2008, 08:12 PM
Dark Muse

Hey, I have not had much time online lately, but I am still around, but I have not got the chance yet to go over the story again. Just checking in.
03-09-2008, 09:08 PM
Janine

Thanks ok, Dark Muse,

Quote:

The rich suffusion of this state generally kept him happy, reaching its culmination in the consuming passion for his wife. But at times the flow would seem to be checked and thrown back. Then it would beat inside him like a tangled sea, and he was tortured in the shattered chaos of his own blood. He grew to dread this arrest, this throw-back, this chaos inside himself, when he seemed merely at the mercy of his own powerful and conflicting elements. How to get some measure of control or surety, this was the question. And when the question rose maddening in him, he would clench his fists as if he would compel the whole universe to submit to him. But it was in vain. He could not even compel himself.

For now, I will just post this part for everyone to think about. I bolded up the significant words. I think this really shows the turmoil that Maurice is going through in-between his times of bliss and passion with his wife.

Quote:

Tonight, however, he was still serene, though little tremors of unreasonable exasperation ran through him. He had to handle the razor very carefully, as he shaved, for it was not at one with him, he was afraid of it. His hearing also was too much sharpened. He heard the woman lighting the lamps on the corridor, and attending to the fire in the visitor's room. And then, as he went to his room he heard the trap arrive. Then came Isabel's voice, lifted and calling, like a bell ringing:

As with blind people his sense of hearing is enhanced. I think this is true of other senses, as well.
03-09-2008, 09:28 PM
Virgil

Hi people. I'm back after a weekend away. I am so friggin exhausted, there is no way I can read the thread right now. :sick: I'll catch up in a day or so.
03-09-2008, 10:29 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Hi people. I'm back after a weekend away. I am so friggin exhausted, there is no way I can read the thread right now. :sick: I'll catch up in a day or so.

Hi Virgil, I must have been posting around the same time you did. I didn't see you there. Things have slowed up some on this thread, so don't worry about posting till you are well rested. Glad you are back safe and sound. I hope you had a good time.
See you tomorrow. I am tired out too, since we had a 16 hour power-outtage here and I did not sleep well last night with no heat. So - see you tomorrow and bye everyone for now.:)
03-09-2008, 11:01 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

They were newly and remotely happy. He did not even regert the loss of his side in these times of dark, palpable joy. A certain exulatance swelled his soul.

But as time wore on, sometimes the rich glamour would leave them. Sometimes after months of intensity, a sense of burden overcame Isable, a weariness, a terrible ennui, in that silent house apporached betwee a colonnade of teall-shafted pines.

I found these lines interesting, becasue they seemed to equate Maurice's blindness and his relationship with Isabel after its occurance almost to that of a newly married couple, where at first they find a great bliss within it together, and the initmacy and isolation they have with each other, but as the reaility sets in more, and time wears on, they begin to have struggles with it. Such as often with a married couply as the years grow on, they begin to have difficulities within the marriage and the sort of paradise of it begins to fade.

Quote:

'Oh, I don't know. I might think differnetly now,' the blind man repiled. It was rather abstruse to Isabel

I wonder, is it becasue of the new persepctive on life that blindness gave Maurice that made him think his feelings for Bertie may be different than they once were?

Quote:

Her nerves were hurting her. She looked automaticaly at the hight, uncurtained windows. In the dusk she could just perceive outside a huge fir-tree swaying its boughs: it was as if she thought it rather than saw it. The rain came flying on the window panes. Ah, why had she no peace? These two men, why did they tear at her? Why did they not come-why was there this suspense?

I found this passage rather interesting, particualy the way in which it talked about how she "thought" the tree rather than "seeing it" in someways this seems to be a refelctiuon back to her husbands own blindness. As well, the great anxity she seems to feel over the idea in being left alone, and she wishes only that at least one of them should come to her.

Quote:

Thinking this of herself, she arched her grey eyebrows and her rather heavy eyelids, with a little flicker of a smile, and for a moment her grey eyes looked amused and wicked, a little sardonic, out of her transfigured Madonna face.

This passage seemed interesting to me, becasue in someways Isabel seems to take on the role of almost a mock Madona, though she genuinely cares for her husband, and they do love each other, in someways she seems almost to take on the role of martyr in having to look after both her husband, and soon child, as both will be equally dependent upon her, as well as the way in which she seems to choose to put herself in isolation with her husband. Originally she gives up her friend Bertie becasue she did not feel right continuing to be friends with him, becaue of her husband.

Quote:

She pulled on her overshoes, wrapped a large tartan shawl around her, put on a man's felt hat, and ventured out along the causeways of the first yard. It was very dark. The wind was roaring in the great elms behind the outhouses. When she came to the second yard the darkness seemed deeper. She was unsure of her footing. She wished she had brought a lantern. Rain blew agianst her. Half she liked it, half she felt unwilling to battle.

I put the most imporant part in bold. It seems there are several instnaces within this story in which Isabel feels torn or caught between two different emtions, feelings or thoughts. As here she talks about her feelings of the rain. And later she talks about how she is both frightend and excited when she is in the darkness of the stables. Many cases she seemes to feel contradicting feelings.
03-10-2008, 03:24 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I found these lines interesting, becasue they seemed to equate Maurice's blindness and his relationship with Isabel after its occurance almost to that of a newly married couple, where at first they find a great bliss within it together, and the initmacy and isolation they have with each other, but as the reaility sets in more, and time wears on, they begin to have struggles with it. Such as often with a married couply as the years grow on, they begin to have difficulities within the marriage and the sort of paradise of it begins to fade.

Dark Muse, That is a good analogy and observation. Even if Maurice was not blinded, there probably would be a period of 'cooling down' between this couple. Pychologists call the blissful period of a new marriage - maybe the first year or so - the 'honeymoon' stage. From there we do have to shift to a more normal or down-to-earth stage. We can't live forever in the throws of passion with our heads floating in the clouds. I think the difference here though is that unlike early married couples when Maurice returned they experienced something very deep between them due to the blindness and it was quite astonishing for both - a deeper passion and a keener sensitivity for Maurice. They say that the blind do feel in other ways - other senses and keener. This may sound silly but I had a cat that was stone deaf and I could swear she experienced things (a sort of sixth sense) that my other cats never did. It was as though she sensed more. I think this is true also of the blind. I have seen films and read books on this fact. I think that it is harder for Maurice, he being alone in his blindness now and he can successfully connect with his wife on that level but not all of the time. This causes him some anxiety and frustration which seems to me to be perfectly understandable.

Quote:

I wonder, is it becasue of the new persepctive on life that blindness gave Maurice that made him think his feelings for Bertie may be different than they once were?

I do think it. I think 'blindness' would greatly alter a person, and not necessarily for the worse.

Quote:

I found this passage rather interesting, particualy the way in which it talked about how she "thought" the tree rather than "seeing it" in someways this seems to be a refelctiuon back to her husbands own blindness. As well, the great anxity she seems to feel over the idea in being left alone, and she wishes only that at least one of them should come to her.

I am glad you posted that part because I also found that passage so interesting and revealing. Yes, in this way Isabel is acting out like Maurice - like a blind person would act out or experience something - thinking it and not actually 'seeing it'. Again, when Isabel goes through the darkness in the barn she is confronted with the state her husband must live in permanently and it frightens her. Perhaps the awareness of it and the fact that she cannot share totally in his blind state without anxiety is where the actual fear lies.

Quote:

This passage seemed interesting to me, becasue in someways Isabel seems to take on the role of almost a mock Madona, though she genuinely cares for her husband, and they do love each other, in someways she seems almost to take on the role of martyr in having to look after both her husband, and soon child, as both will be equally dependent upon her, as well as the way in which she seems to choose to put herself in isolation with her husband. Originally she gives up her friend Bertie becasue she did not feel right continuing to be friends with him, becaue of her husband.

I thought the mention of the title of Madonna was quite important, as well. True to some extent there is a sense of martyrism about Isabel or a sense of her giving up something, actually a great deal to please her husband and try to keep him happy. I also think she feels a frustration, that after sacrificing so much on her part he still is not always happy and neither is she. I feel that the isolation that the couple has adopted as the cure all for their situation is truly not working. I think both, and especially Isabel ideally need other people connections and other friends. When two people emerse themselves in their own separate world they put a lot of stress upon each other to create or maintain the partner's sense of happiness. In a way, I do not think this fair or reasonable.

Quote:

I put the most imporant part in bold. It seems there are several instnaces within this story in which Isabel feels torn or caught between two different emtions, feelings or thoughts. As here she talks about her feelings of the rain. And later she talks about how she is both frightend and excited when she is in the darkness of the stables. Many cases she seemes to feel contradicting feelings.

Yes, Isabel's feelings are quite mixed and complex; I agree. Maurice is not the only one with anxieties and confusions.
I think it typical of Lawrence's writing, that he presents these two people with inner conflicts. We have seen this in all the stories we have read I believe. This makes us see the characters much more 3 dimensional and 'real'.
03-10-2008, 04:57 PM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Thanks ok, Dark Muse,For now, I will just post this part for everyone to think about. I bolded up the significant words. I think this really shows the turmoil that Maurice is going through in-between his times of bliss and passion with his wife.

I like your quote Janine. It's very descriptive of that possessive urge the male characters get in many of the stories we've read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I found this passage rather interesting, particualy the way in which it talked about how she "thought" the tree rather than "seeing it" in someways this seems to be a refelctiuon back to her husbands own blindness. As well, the great anxity she seems to feel over the idea in being left alone, and she wishes only that at least one of them should come to her.

There have been so many posts, so I don't know whether we've really talked this out yet, but what do you suppose all the darkness and barn scenes do? I think you put it well when you say that it makes Isabel think rather see the things around her; but, what does it mean to think something rather than see something? And, why does it frighten the characters--excluding Maurice--so much?
03-10-2008, 06:03 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

There have been so many posts, so I don't know whether we've really talked this out yet, but what do you suppose all the darkness and barn scenes do? I think you put it well when you say that it makes Isabel think rather see the things around her; but, what does it mean to think something rather than see something? And, why does it frighten the characters--excluding Maurice--so much?

One of the things that is significant about the barn secen and the darkness is the fact that in a way Isabel is stepping into Maurice's world. She can take on some of his blindness to herself, though she can also leave that world to re-enter the world of sight whenever she wants to, unlike her husband. Maurice does not feel so frightend by it, becasue he feels at home in the darkness, but Isabel must leave the world of sight to enter into the dark and when she is in the darkness she feels as if things do not really exisit for her, as there are several mentions of invisiblity and the idea of being invisible within the story.

P.S. I do not have much time right now Janine, but I will take time with your post in reponse to mine, when I am able to do so.
03-10-2008, 06:10 PM
Janine

Quark, I will be back later to answer yours and to Dark Muse, I posted something almost exactly to that effect awhile back - about Isabel entering into the blind world of the barn and Maurice's domain and world and his perception. However, it is fine to repeat that and emphasis this point. I will think further on the whole idea of 'invisibility' and the feeling of not 'seeing' an object, but 'feeling' it. I will post something later - it is nearly dinnertime now.

Take your time DM, I am in no rush. I am quite busy with all the various discussion threads at this time. I can wait in here.
03-10-2008, 09:25 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Dark Muse, That is a good analogy and observation. Even if Maurice was not blinded, there probably would be a period of 'cooling down' between this couple. Pychologists call the blissful period of a new marriage - maybe the first year or so - the 'honeymoon' stage. From there we do have to shift to a more normal or down-to-earth stage. We can't live forever in the throws of passion with our heads floating in the clouds. I think the difference here though is that unlike early married couples when Maurice returned they experienced something very deep between them due to the blindness and it was quite astonishing for both - a deeper passion and a keener sensitivity for Maurice. They say that the blind do feel in other ways - other senses and keener. This may sound silly but I had a cat that was stone deaf and I could swear she experienced things (a sort of sixth sense) that my other cats never did. It was as though she sensed more. I think this is true also of the blind. I have seen films and read books on this fact. I think that it is harder for Maurice, he being alone in his blindness now and he can successfully connect with his wife on that level but not all of the time. This causes him some anxiety and frustration which seems to me to be perfectly understandable.

Yes I think thier feelings and reactions to each other are natural and understandable for thier situation, and perhaps after thier blissful period, they just need time to balance out, as they are almost moving from one extreme to another in thier relationship, in thier dealing with the situation, and perhaps they just need time to sort of mellow out with each other to completely adapt to the situation they are in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

I am glad you posted that part because I also found that passage so interesting and revealing. Yes, in this way Isabel is acting out like Maurice - like a blind person would act out or experience something - thinking it and not actually 'seeing it'. Again, when Isabel goes through the darkness in the barn she is confronted with the state her husband must live in permanently and it frightens her. Perhaps the awareness of it and the fact that she cannot share totally in his blind state without anxiety is where the actual fear lies.

That is a good point, that she is made anxious by the fact that she knows she can never completely understand what her husband is going through, and though she has her moments where she can experince things the way he does, becasue in the back of her mind she alwyas knows she can come back from it, so she will never have the full effect of her husbands emotions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

I thought the mention of the title of Madonna was quite important, as well. True to some extent there is a sense of martyrism about Isabel or a sense of her giving up something, actually a great deal to please her husband and try to keep him happy. I also think she feels a frustration, that after sacrificing so much on her part he still is not always happy and neither is she. I feel that the isolation that the couple has adopted as the cure all for their situation is truly not working. I think both, and especially Isabel ideally need other people connections and other friends. When two people emerse themselves in their own separate world they put a lot of stress upon each other to create or maintain the partner's sense of happiness. In a way, I do not think this fair or reasonable.

Yes I can understand how she would feel frustation after everything she has done, and it still has not cured his bouts of depression, and intstead of trying to truly deal with the problem, she has just led them in isolation as a way to try and just ignore what is going on.
03-10-2008, 11:23 PM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

One of the things that is significant about the barn secen and the darkness is the fact that in a way Isabel is stepping into Maurice's world. She can take on some of his blindness to herself, though she can also leave that world to re-enter the world of sight whenever she wants to, unlike her husband. Maurice does not feel so frightend by it, becasue he feels at home in the darkness, but Isabel must leave the world of sight to enter into the dark and when she is in the darkness she feels as if things do not really exisit for her, as there are several mentions of invisiblity and the idea of being invisible within the story.

It does make them see, or not see, through Maurice's eyes. It's not really a personal thing, though. It doesn't seem to make them understand Maurice any better. It just gives them the same kind of experience that Maurice has when he's upstairs and has that episode that Janine quoted from earlier. I'm struggling to find good terms to describe it, but I guess you could call it a heightened sensual and instinctual state with some weird empathic quality also. This is probably what freaks Bertie out so much. He's the distant, intellectual type and this experience is something profoundly alien to him. I'll have to go back and look more closely at Isabel's reaction. I don't remember precisely what she does. You think she feels invisible? Hmm, I will have to go back and read.

Janine, did you post something along these lines too? I'll go back and check.

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