Just out of curriosity I looked up the painting that was referenced in the story.
This is the Stag at Bay
the artist is Sir Edwin Henry Landseer
http://www.irater.cz/data/historicke...tag-at-Bay.jpg
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Just out of curriosity I looked up the painting that was referenced in the story.
This is the Stag at Bay
the artist is Sir Edwin Henry Landseer
http://www.irater.cz/data/historicke...tag-at-Bay.jpg
Well, this is true that we must work within the structure of the story but I did not feel as harshly toward her as you seem to have. I just felt there must be more she knows and had harboured in her heart that is not shared in the story, only implied. I think also she innocently went back to their meeting ground - the garden to reminese about him and muse on the past, not expecting to actually confront the past in the form of the physical man. That would be quite unnerving I would imagine. Therefore considering the shock she must have felt I think it would be understandable the way she reacted. She was later quite honest with her husband. She could have lied to him or just avoided the whole situation altogether. As in the James Joyce story "The Dead' the wife confesses her past attachment to her former lover to her husband.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, thanks...the fly just seemed so graphic against the purity of the background of her white dress, didn't it? I will review the walk through the rose garden and site certain details of that tomorrow. I am too tired out presently to do so. I am going to quite the computer really soon now for tonight.Quote:
Good point about the use of foreshadow with the fly. As well as the idea of the solider only being a shadow of himself. I did notice the presistince of the roses that held no scent and thier importance to the story and its meaning.
Many people though are routed still in their pasts, so I feel this woman is probably a realistic portrayal of a person who feels this dug back to her past and a time she was exceedingly happy and blissful. I don't know if a person can control this and how they would feel. Even though he left her and she thought he had died she still might have strong feelings for someone she loved that intensely. To me it is an interesting scenerio. Who would think of it; seeing an ex-lover and finding him, firstly, alive when considered dead, and yet really dead in spirit and soul, being only the shell of the person he had once been. That would be very startling indeed.Quote:
As to her weakness, in my mind, she is weak in the way in which she seems unable to just move on with her life, but she cannot get over her love of the solider whom had left her, and even when she thinks he is dead, she is drawn back to the place she had shared with him, but lots of people deal with lost love and are able to move on, but she reamins stuck in the past, and in my eyes, that is a weakness.
Thanks, Dark Muse...how interesting that painting is. I will have to review the text to see what significance this has to the story.
I personaly felt that she intentionally went back becasue of her inability to get over the past and it seems in this action she appears completely unwilling to try and make any attempt to be happy with the man she married. It seems from the beigning of the story to the end she shows no devotion or affection for her husband whatsoever, but if she was so unable to give her heart to another man, she never had to marry again, she did so of her own choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think to an extent people can control thier feelings, one does not forget or stop loving thier former or first loves, but they move on from that point typically and learn to live thier life in the present and the future instead of trying to have what is no more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I never heard of the Tree of Heaven before so I looked it up, and this it what it looks like
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/vro/vr..._of_heaven.jpg
But I think somewhere in the story it indicated that she never did love her husband. I will have to look this up tomorrow to be exact. I am falling asleep right now. We hardly see she and her husband together so how do we know she is always this unaffectionate with him. Lawrence and his wife, Frieda, often quarreled and were at odds with each other but then they did profess to love each other. I really don't know the full dynamics of this couple's interpersonal relationship here. I think the concentration is more on the fact of the meeting with the man from her past. I think at the end it states that with patience they have now to wait to see what will happen. My memory is foggy now on this so I will review later tonight and post something more precise tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
If they are healthy mentally and sound emotionally. they might be able to break entirely from their past. but there are a lot of people who truly cannot do so entirely. What you are stating is indeed healthy and ideal, and mature, but all people do not achieve this - afterall, we all have human weaknesses.Quote:
I think to an extent people can control thier feelings, one does not forget or stop loving thier former or first loves, but they move on from that point typically and learn to live thier life in the present and the future instead of trying to have what is no more.
Interesting photo of the 'Tree of Heaven'. I will review where these things are related to the text, mentioned - this 'Tree of Heaven' and the painting you posted earlier. They must have some deep significance to this story.
Yes at the end of the story she states that she never did love him, which is one of the reasons I have little respect and compassion for her. If she never loved him or could not be capable of loving anyone again sense her first love, she should never have married him to start with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
This is the point I was trying to make about her weakness in comparing her to the roses. The fact that her actions and feelings are in some ways very immature. It is natural for people to still care about the people of thier past, but not to the extent in which she seems to carry it. In this way she is weak. Her emotions and mentality are very fragile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes I felt they must hold some meaning becasue they were pointed out and named in such a way. It will be an intresting discussion to delve into that further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Woah, so many posts!!!
I so much agree with that, great observation. And then there was later again a similar kind of indication with the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Just like the man having lost his soul, not inhabited.Quote:
The house had a sterile appearance, as if it were still used, but not inhabited. A shadow seemed to go over her
I agree with that too. Her exultation in her past, her wanting to preserve the beauty of her memories, past being somehow more potent than the present. And those memories suddenly stained by the actual arrival of her mad lover. A Shadow. A foreshadowing exactly, by the fly, the black on the white.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Interesting about the doorways. I'll look them up, find them in the story.
I think she decides to tell her husband in the end because she feels herself so terribly bound. As described in the passage she felt so destructive, she wanted to be done with everything. To wound him and end this relationship with the man she had not loved.Quote:
She was later quite honest with her husband. She could have lied to him or just avoided the whole situation altogether. As in the James Joyce story "The Dead' the wife confesses her past attachment to her former lover to her husband.
Great paintings and pictures. I wasn’t aware either how Tree of Heaven looked like. So thanks for that. I just read in Wikipedia about the tree, that it is quite unlike the name it is known by. In some countries it is considered as a weed and as a Tree of Hell. Quite contradictory to what its name indicates. Perhaps it’s a suggestion towards the fact that appearances might not necessarily indicate what is truly happening. The way their marriage was rotting inside. And just after that he finds a sweet-tasting apple in a crooked, twisted tree. I also read that it grows in the most hostile of conditions so perhaps it’s a pointing towards that too.Quote:
But suddenly she lifted her head again swiftly, like a thing that tries to get free. She wanted to be free of it. It was not him so much, but it, something she had put on herself, that bound her so horribly. And having put the bond on herself, it was hardest to take it off. But now she hated everything and felt destructive. He stood with his back to the door, fixed, as if he would oppose her eternally, till she was extinguished. She looked at him. Her eyes were cold and hostile. His workman's hands spread on the panels of the door behind him.
"You know I used to live here?" she began, in a hard voice, as if wilfully to wound him. He braced himself against her, and nodded.
‘The Stag at Bay’ might be a reference to him finding no way out of his predicament. Just like the stag in the pictures with dogs on one side and sea on the other. Stuck totally.
I love the garden passages too! They are lovely, very beautiful.
I do agree with you Dark Muse in that I did not have quite particularly sympathetic emotions for the woman when she treats her husband in that pathetic condescending way. But did find powerful those passages when she encounters her lover.
Yes I agree with that, I do not think her telling of her husband had anything to do with any sort of repsect toward him nor for the sake of wanting to be hoenst with him, but rather I think she did it becasue she cares nothing for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
Thanks for your great insights and research upon the tree. That is most intresting to know that information, compared to how it is used in the story. I think that is defineinately meaningful and significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
That is a good observation, in a way I could view it at another angel as well. I could see the woman being the stag, as the hounds in the picture could represent, either the past of the present which she is stuck between. Unable to go back to one, but unable to move forward into the other. Or the two men, the one whom holds her heart, but can no longer return her feelings, and the one that can be there for her but she is incapable of loving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
That is a very meaningful observation! I can see that, her hemmed in between the two. There is one dog lying dead beside the stag too. And also the traces of the storm breaking with shafts of light. Might these represent anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I wondered about that myself, that is a good question. The dead dog, could represent her true love, as once thought he was dead, only to find he still lived, and yet now would be dead to her forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
Perhaps in the end this will give her some sort of clousure? Perhaps she can stop living in the past now? Though she may never truly grow to love her husband maybe she will stop living in that lie.
Yes, a closure from the past, I agree, that could be a possibility. This wanting inside her to be free and break the bounds she had imposed upon herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Perhaps the dead dog could also refer to memories now dead, which were pursuing her originally in a similar way to those dogs. The time now come to actually counter her yearning to live in them, rather than the reality. Get a reality-check so to speak. The shafts of light speaking perhaps of this sundering from the past as a good thing, so that now she is forced upon to look at her life and make a decision. Though I think perhaps I am getting carried away with the painting, lol.
Haha I know that feeling, and that is very easy to do, but I think those are some excellent insights and good observations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
I cannot offer much more intelligent remarks tonight becasue I am about to slump off, so I will rejoin you all again in the morning.
Good Night!:) I am off to do some very stupid Calculus homework questions too.
Wow, you too did a great job so far. Last night I read the first 3 or 4 pages again. Second readings always seem to help me better understand the story or novel. I have been trying to research this story. The only reference I found so far is in a letter Lawrence was writing when in Australia - this is so strange to me considering, he and his wife lived remotely there in a cottage (similiar to this story), by the sea and hardly knew anyone. He wrote "Shadow in a Rose Garden" years before this, but he mentions that it is to be included in a new collection of his short stories; but that orginally it was published in "The Prussian Officer and other Short Stories". This revival of this one story seems so odd to me now. I am presently reading "Kangaroo" which is set on the Australian coast he speaks of in this letter. I was thinking when I read "The Shadow in the Rose Garden" that most likely he took the setting from Cornwall, and his time living in a small cottage by the sea with his wife, there again, they both were very seclusive. Interesting, isn't it? I want to further research this story. I may find references in some of my other biographical books, such as the complete letters volumes or "The Intelligent Heart", an earlier biography on Lawrence's life. I am hoping if I find his exact words, I can get some better insight into the story.
Both of you have brought out such good points; the tree seems to indicate to me a dicotomy, which is so typical of Lawrence writing. Interesting that really it is also known as the 'Tree of Hell'. The man seems to turn away from the tree as though he is replused by it. The painting is of particular interest to me, as well. I would think the shafts of light would also be such a typical Lawrence image and theme. He often sees 'light' as an awakening or a sudden insight or tranformational element. Recall the light in "Sun". I have to go back now and view that painting again more closely.
It proves one thing, the more we talk about this seemingly simple story, the more we see it is not at all 'simplistic', but quite complex.
It is curious how hostile you feel towards the woman, Dark Muse. She has really annoyed you. I feel sort of ambivalent towards her, myself. I don't know why she married her husband, but back then in this time frame, I think woman were given very few choices in life; therefore, I could not judge her for her actions of marrying her husband, because I do not know her circumstances at that time. Perhaps she was so distraught or poor and he was kind to her. I don't think she would be the only woman who married a man, who she did not truly love with a passion, as she once knew. She may love him in a quite different way. It is strange, because the physical description very much reminds me of Frieda - Lawrence's wife. Also, the description is similar to Lawrence himself, but not quite.
I can't write much more now because I am going out for dinner with my mother. Keep posting and I will read what the two of you write. You both are thinking hard about this story and it's various elements - great! Your posts are interesting and stimulate me to think of various devices used in this story.
Glad you liked the painting of the woman experiencing the scent of the roses, Hira. You might look up 'Waterhouse' online to see so many lovely paintings. I only wish she had been wearing a white dress as in the story...oh well, close enough, I guess.
Thanks - DM, for posting the photos. Those were very helpful. Being trained as an illustrator, I think these bits of art/photography help nicely to illustrate the story and add something of interest to this thread.
She just seemed so daft and selfish to me. That whole scene at the end, where she locks herself in her room, and tells her husband to go away and is mad at him becasue he wants to know what is wrong. That is how a child might respond to thier parents, when they are upset about something, but it is not the way a woman should respond to her husband.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
And though we do not know thier history prior to the story, the impression given to me, is that he does generally care for her, and though she makes him angery he does not seem as if he is really mean to her, and he seems to be indgulgent of her to some degree, as he moved out here becasue she said she wanted to come, but she does not show any sign of gratefulness in the least.
And then when they were having thier argument, and he is trying to find out what is going on, it just annoyed me the way she kept saying
"What do you mean"
and acting like she did not understand his questions and accused him of asking "not-straightforward questions"
Becasue it seemed to me what he was asking as perfectly clear.
It just seems as if she was not really ready yet to acutally be a grown up, but still trying to pretend to be one.
Wow, you guys are doing great. I feel left out. But I didn't read it yet. :bawling:
*Pats Virgil on the back* We still love ya, I wondered where you have been.
Thank you Muse. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, Virgil, you have been missed in here....at least by me and Dark Muse. Hurry and finish the story, so you can give us some opinions and thoughts on it soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Dark Muse, I don't know what to say, except to just state that I don't think it that important if we like the characters at all. You can maintain your opinion of the woman, as you stated it, but I can also have my own opinion of her. I feel that at this particular time, towards the ending of the story, she needed her space. She seemed to need the time to be alone; at least this is how I view that ending. Even married couples need this from time to time; I have encountered this often in other Lawrence writings, so that I did not find it that unusual that she should ask to be left alone. As I stated, I don't know if this aspect of the story is terribly significant. Lawrence is portraying a married couple in a realistic light. He was married and his marriage had it's 'ups and downs' at times. I think it is realistic that the wife might react this way, and that in turn, the husband would also react in his own manner. Often couples do not understand one another. I think this story in particular shows this sense of confusion between them, that is often evident in complex human relationships, especially between man and woman.
I did find one reference in one of my biography books entitled "The Life of D.H.Lawrence 'The Intelligent Heart' by Harry T. Moore.
I did think this an interesting passage. Obviously, the author Katherine Mansfield saw the brilliance in this story, from a realistic and artistic viewpoint. Frieda was Lawrence's wife. They traveled extensely after leaving England. At the time this story was written, I believe they were residing in Cornwall in a cottage near the sea and were indeed quite reclusive. The quotes are merely opinions set forth by Katherine Mansfield, who was a good friend to Lawrence.Quote:
And on 10 August, he and Frieda sailed on the Tahiti for San Francisco, touching at Wellington, New Zealand; at Avatiu, Raratonga; and at Papeete, Tahiti. From Welington he sent a friendly postcard to Katherine Mansfield, with a one word message, 'Ricordi', to break their years of silence. Only a day earlier, Katherine Mansfield, on the point of leaving Switzerland for London, had made her will and had named Lawrence among those of her friends who were to receive small remembrances. Aaron's Rod had roused her admiration for the writer so that she could forgive the man. Reading it in July, and coming across an old story of Lawrence's, 'The Shadow in the Rose Garden' (from The Prussian Officer), she had spoken of these in two letters to Koteliansky. Lawrence's 'Rose Garden' story was 'one of the weakest he ever wrote', yet it was 'so utterly different from all the rest' in a collection of modern stories that she read it 'with joy. When he mentions gooseberries these are real red, ripe gooseberries that the gardener is rolling on a tray. When he bites into an apple it is a sharp, sweet, fresh apple from the growing tree.' And the faults of Aaron's Rod, she thought, were minor: the book lived, and it was a relief to read it after 'all these pre-digested books written by authors who have nothing to say!' She could not agree with much of what Lawrence said, and his ideas of sex were meaningless to her, 'but I feel nearer to L, than anyone else. All these last months I have thought as he does about many things.' Indeed, these two writers had similarities in their physical vision, as a close examination of their prose will show: in an age of journalese and of pallid stereotypes, they both wrote in a style that was concrete, sharp-coloured, and kinetic, each of them with a distinct personal cadence. (In the July 1954 issue of Essays in Criticism, Robert Liddell wrote: 'Katherine Mansfield said somewhere that there were three Lawrences: the black devil, whom she hated; the prohet, in whom she did not believe; and the man and artist whom she loved and valued. Now that is it twenty-four years since he died, can we not rid ourselves of the devil and the prophet - for whom there is no future - and find the man and the artist, who is immortal?')
Why Cornwall? It does look very beautiful in these pictures. I did not find many references to this story in his letters but hope you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quote:
It is curious how hostile you feel towards the woman, Dark Muse. She has really annoyed you. I feel sort of ambivalent towards her, myself. I don't know why she married her husband, but back then in this time frame, I think woman were given very few choices in life; therefore, I could not judge her for her actions of marrying her husband, because I do not know her circumstances at that time. Perhaps she was so distraught or poor and he was kind to her. I don't think she would be the only woman who married a man, who she did not truly love with a passion, as she once knew. She may love him in a quite different way. It is strange, because the physical description very much reminds me of Frieda - Lawrence's wife. Also, the description is similar to Lawrence himself, but not quite.
Loved it! Yep, I'll look him up.Quote:
Glad you liked the painting of the woman experiencing the scent of the roses, Hira. You might look up 'Waterhouse' online to see so many lovely paintings. I only wish she had been wearing a white dress as in the story...oh well, close enough, I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I love what Katherine Mansfield says about the storyQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think I agree with you both Janine and Dark Muse, I really do not like her treatment of her husband but I do agree with what you say Janine about the possible misunderstanding between the two. And perhaps her behaviour is merely instigated by the trauma she has just suffered. But perhaps as you say we are not really required to judge her.Quote:
When he mentions gooseberries these are real red, ripe gooseberries that the gardener is rolling on a tray. When he bites into an apple it is a sharp, sweet, fresh apple from the growing tree.
I don't really have anything worthwhile to add at the moment. Didn't do a second reading or anything!
Thanks - this site is wonderful. I love this part of England. The photos are so beautiful and evoke the feeling I get from some of Lawrence's writings by the seaside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
Hira, this may answer your question. I found this online today.
You can find the rest of the article here: http://literaryculture.suite101.com/..._cornwall_1916Quote:
When Lawrence, with his wife Freida, moved to Cornwall in1916 he saw it as a first step toward emigrating to America and away from a war he did not support..
Any plans Lawrence and his German wife Freida might have had to move from London to Cornwall, and then to Ireland and eventually America, where they planned to settle, were quickly scuppered by the new British Military Service Act of 1916, which forbad foreign travel by civilians, and put Lawrence in danger of being called-up for military service himself. Lawrence felt trapped.
And it wasn't only the new travel restrictions that made him feel trapped ( to be honest he felt trapped wherever he lived), no, this time it was also because of the suppression, due to the so called 'obscene' content of his recently published novel The Rainbow. As a result Lawrence was getting close to a nervous breakdown. The couple decided to move to Cornwall anyway.
It is quite interesting and revealing.
Quote by Hira:
Fabulous work! Such romantic and interesting work he did.Quote:
Loved it! Yep, I'll look him up.
Quote by Hira:
Glad you found that helpful. I really liked what she said also. It was interesting to me. I liked several of the things she pointed out. This story is really sensual - about the senses and feeling things from a different level...like the taste of the apple, the red berries on the tray, the feel of the sea air, the smell of the roses, and the sense of the man being not as he had once been. I will re-read this story, although I read it twice so far and pick out other references that make this story so alive.Quote:
I love what Katherine Mansfield says about the story
Yes, exactly. There are many stories of Lawrence's where we don't necessarily like the characters. I think we always feel the need to try and explain them or understand what motivates them. I think, the fact they interact with each other is a vitally important factor. None are as 'islands unto themselves' - they act on impulse and they react also, on impulse or are inclined to react in the moment. It is not a planned reaction. They don't always act logically, this being common behavior of normal human beings. I think Lawrence captures this perfectly. We all have flaws and weaknesses and we don't always act so nice but we all have to realise that we can try and understand why the person reacts as they do.Quote:
I think I agree with you both Janine and Dark Muse, I really do not like her treatment of her husband but I do agree with what you say Janine about the possible misunderstanding between the two. And perhaps her behaviour is merely instigated by the trauma she has just suffered. But perhaps as you say we are not really required to judge her.
I was reading a commentary book last night on "Tale of Two Cities" and this study quide actually gave me good ideas on how to study any work. First off, it is good to look at the characters, then themes and then symbols. I was thinking how the roses are a fleeting symbol of beauty and might represent the lose of the woman's first love. The sea also is a very changable element in the story.
I love this paragraph; note all the key words I have underlined:
Quote:
Slowly she went down one path, lingering, like one who has gone back into the past. Suddenly she was touching some heavy crimson roses that were soft as velvet, touching them thoughtfully, without knowing, as a mother sometimes fondles the hand of her child. She leaned slightly forward to catch the scent. Then she wandered on in abstraction. Sometimes a flame-coloured, scentless rose would hold her arrested. She stood gazing at it as if she could not understand it. Again the same softness of intimacy came over her, as she stood before a tumbling heap of pink petals. Then she wondered over the white rose, that was greenish, like ice, in the centre. So, slowly, like a white, pathetic butterfly, she drifted down the path, coming at last to a tiny terrace all full of roses. They seemed to fill the place, a sunny, gay throng. She was shy of them, they were so many and so bright. They seemed to be conversing and laughing. She felt herself in a strange crowd. It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself. She flushed with excitement. The air was pure scent.
I wonder, firstly, about the meaning of the various roses as she encounters them. At the end I ponder this reference to a 'strange crowd'; also the meaning of 'conversing and laughing'. The phrase "It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself" seems to indicate she is not acting as she normally would act.
I particularly love the line refering to the fondling of a child's hand. That is lovely and so heartfelt an image, one that does indeed transport a person back to their past and their own childhood.
Quote by Hira
That is fine. Take your time. I am going to try for a third reading myself, now that we brought up some good points. I will notice more on this repeat reading because I will know what to look for. Interesting how that works, isn't it? I will also continue my research and hope to find something more in the letters.Quote:
I don't really have anything worthwhile to add at the moment. Didn't do a second reading or anything!
Yes I found that imagery to be interesting, the way in which the roses are descirbed making her almost seem a stanger at a party. It could perhaps be becasue she is likely not the same person she was when she first lived there, as a place always seems strange when a person returns after being away, as they would usually be older and have had difference exeprinces in thier life sense thier first parting of the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
And it does state later on that "She was not herself"
I found this an odd use of imagery for this story, but interesting, and it does seem that Lawerence uses somewhat contradictory images within this story. As within the story, the woman does not really appear to be very maternal, nor does she have kids of her own, and we know nothing of what her relationship with her own family was like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
And as I mentioned early at the beginign of the poem when speaking of the husband, these lines had stuck out to me:
This to me seemed a bit contridictory, considering the uncertaintiy of his situation and the fact that he did not seem confidant in his marraige or his wife's feelings for him, as several times he refers to his concerns that she was unaware of him or ignoring him.Quote:
His jacket however, did not look dejected. It was new, and had a smarl and self-confident air, sitting upon a confident body
DM, I like that "almost seem a stranger at a party". Yes, the roses in the one part seem to overwhelm her as a crowd would, or a crowd at a party, where one does not know anyone and feels to be an outsider. I think it is a good observation that she indeed, is not the same person she once was. Apparently, when she was intimate with the soldier they both were younger, although she still does not seem to be quite middle-aged or old. I think this in indicated by the description we now get of the soldier and the slight changes in his appearance and the mention of "growing slightly stout".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quote:
He was a young man, military in appearance, growing slightly stout. His black hair was brushed smooth and bright, his moustache was waxed.
Exactly.Quote:
And it does state later on that "She was not herself"
Yes, and this is very typical of Lawrence's writing. He often sets up contrasts in his descriptions, even within just one sentence, suggesting a kind of questioning and dicotomy, like seeing two sides of the coin.Quote:
I found this an odd use of imagery for this story, but interesting, and it does seem that Lawerence uses somewhat contradictory images within this story.
True but one cannot really tell. She may have been more maternal, than you think. We don't know anything about her really - family or otherwise. We just don't have enough information about her in this short story. The story is only a brief impression of a day in her life. How different we can all be on different days of the year and under different circumstances. Also, we are usually much different away from our families than when we are within the family unit. People and their personalities fluctuate with the interaction with various other people also and in the environments we occupy. All of life fluctuates and chances from moment to moment; we change as well.Quote:
As within the story, the woman does not really appear to be very maternal, nor does she have kids of her own, and we know nothing of what her relationship with her own family was like.
Again the physical impression of the husband has an element of contrast to it. Nothing in this story is black and white. We all live with contridictions and this makes life interesting actually. We might be strong in character but not in appearance. Complexity again is evident and this seems to make the characters come alive to me. Things are not always as they appear to be on the surface.Quote:
And as I mentioned early at the beginign of the poem when speaking of the husband, these lines had stuck out to me:
I think it does appear contradictory but that is ok. Life is contradictory and ironic at times. Maybe he was trying hard to get her attention by the way he dressed and carried himself or maybe this was just his natural manerism. I don't see anything really odd about that part. It seemed lifelike enough. People can look a certain way but actually feel rejected. People hide feelings well.Quote:
This to me seemed a bit contridictory, considering the uncertaintiy of his situation and the fact that he did not seem confidant in his marraige or his wife's feelings for him, as several times he refers to his concerns that she was unaware of him or ignoring him.
Though we do not know how old she was when she was with the solider, we do know it has been around 10 years sense they have been together, as she said he was 26 when she knew him, and would now be 32Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Also there is the one descirption of her which states:
Quote:
She was a good-looking woman who seemed older then he
Yes that is true, but within the story, to me she appears to be too much in a child-state herself to really appear to be or have the ablity to be very matronly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I also find it intresting that the story seems to make a point, of pointing out how attractive and physicaly good looking both the woman and the husband are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
"She was a good-looking woman who seemed older then he"Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Thanks, DM I did not recall the first part when I posted. Now I vaguely think I remember reading that. Glad you pointed that out. You would think by 2 1/2 readings I would have remembered that. So 10 years has elapsed - interesting. I did note that she was older than he. This interested me, because Lawrence was 7 yrs younger than his wife, Frieda. The woman's description reminds me of Frieda except, I think, it said this woman had reddish hair. Frieda was light haired with blue eyes. Frieda had had previous lovers before, she met Lawrence so maybe in this story he musing on the fact, of how it would be if his wife were to meet an ex-lover, after 10 yrs of their marriage. I wish I could find more references to this story. I will keep looking, just to find out where he got the story idea or seeds of this idea from. Lawrence wrote tons of letters so it is bound to show up in one of them. I just have to search my reference books.
I don't know. How old does one have to be to be matronly? I think there are young mothers who feel greatly for their children. I don't know if Lawrence used the child reference to her as more to something that would strike us all and pull us back to our pasts.Quote:
Yes that is true, but within the story, to me she appears to be too much in a child-state herself to really appear to be or have the ablity to be very matronly.
Yes, it certainly did do that. I wonder why, also. I don't really have an answer to why I think Lawrence made them both physically good looking.Quote:
I also find it intresting that the story seems to make a point, of pointing out how attractive and physicaly good looking both the woman and the husband are.
That is very interesting to know about Lawrence and his wife. And yes in the story the woman is said to have aubron hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I was not speaking of her physical age, but the way I precieived her in reading the story, she seemed to have the mentality of a child, she seemed immature herself. And instead of trying to advance forward with her life, it seems she is trying to move backward through it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Perhaps it has to do with the way things are not always how they appear. To look at them they are both physcial attractive, and yet, they have inward blemishies that cannot be seen. It seems to be a theme with the story, the idea of outward beauty, as with the mention of the scentless roses. They are nice to look at, but do not hold anything inside of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I'm not sure if you guys realize it, but the story is available electronically here on lit net: http://www.online-literature.com/dh_...ian-officer/7/.
Well, his wife was the model for 'Ursula' in "The Rainbow" and "Women in Love", so I thought maybe there was some connection in this story, as well, or even to his mother, who loved roses and kept a rose garden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I found this online in E-Notes, I believe; if you notice there are different stages of development in Lawrence's short stories. The last story we discussed was quite different, since it belonged to the last stage of short stories; but according to this online criticism, this story "Shadow in the Rose Garden" belongs to his second stage of short stories (still early); I underlined that reference:
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Major Works of Short Fiction
Many critics consider Lawrence's short stories his most artistically accomplished writings and have attributed much of their success to the constraints of the form that forced Lawrence to deny himself the elaborations, diversions, and repetitions that characterize his longer works. In comparison with his novels, Lawrence's short fiction is economical in style and structure. His early stories are written in the manner of Robert Louis Stevenson and Rudyard Kipling, whose anecdotes and tales of adventure epitomized the traditional nineteenth-century English short story. Most critics concur that “Odour of Chrysanthemums” marked the emergence of a second stage in the development of Lawrence's short fiction. Composed in 1911 and published in The Prussian Officer, and Other Stories (1914), this piece incorporates the heightened realism of Henry James, Joseph Conrad, and Leo Tolstoy, and like most of Lawrence's stories from the years 1909 to 1912, focuses on the familiar events and problems of twentieth-century industrial society, while displaying concern for the lives of ordinary men and women. The title story from The Prussian Officer is regarded by many as Lawrence's first completely visionary work. This piece signaled another change in the direction of Lawrence's writing and, to some critics, in the art of short fiction at large. Written in 1913, “The Prussian Officer” combines accurate social setting with penetrating psychological analysis, exhibiting Lawrence's eagerness to explore areas beneath the surface of human behavior. Characterized by intense observation, this and other works of the period before 1925 imply the depth and complexity of ordinary experience and retain Lawrence's sharp observation of character and place.
I think we just differ on this opinion of the woman and that is fine. We all maintain our own interpretation and impression. This is what makes the world an interesting place. I don't feel she is mentally like a child. I feel the woman is acting out her sincere shock at the man she has seen. I think she needs time to think about it and deal with it. I think, by the ending lines of this story, the husband and wife have a good chance now of working through this. It is better sometimes to have things out in the open and stated honestly. She did not deceive her husband in my opinion. Many husbands and wives do not reveal all they have experienced in their pasts to their spouses. I think this is a common thing. I don't believe the woman ever expected to encounter the supposedly dead ex-lover. Just seeing him would be a shock - even if he had merely been a friend - to see him now alive but not truly alive. How sad that would make one feel.Quote:
I was not speaking of her physical age, but the way I precieived her in reading the story, she seemed to have the mentality of a child, she seemed immature herself. And instead of trying to advance forward with her life, it seems she is trying to move backward through it.
Lawrence and his wife Frieda had there periods of disagreement and strife. I think Lawrence had insight into being a husband and how it sometimes changed between husband and wife. I wish Virgil could comment now since he is married and would lend his perspective on this point of view. Hopefully he will read the story and be here to comment soon. I know he is tied up with personal matters more pressing than this story for now. We have a whole month so I am sure he will comment eventually on this whole point.
Don't we all have inward blemishes? Yes, I thought the scentless roses quite significant. It seems the ex-lover also has some outward attractiveness or beauty but he is hollow within and witless (scentless) like that particular rose. I think the roses act as metaphors for the characters. Also, if you think of it the beauty of a rose quickly fades and the petals fall eventually and a bare bush is left behind. The rose metaphors in this story are really brilliant, I think.Quote:
Perhaps it has to do with the way things are not always how they appear. To look at them they are both physcial attractive, and yet, they have inward blemishies that cannot be seen. It seems to be a theme with the story, the idea of outward beauty, as with the mention of the scentless roses. They are nice to look at, but do not hold anything inside of them.
You're suspicious of the roses? They seemed like they made her genuinely happy, though they do destabilize her marriage. I think they're more representative of her past relationship than her present one, too. She has a rather idealized notion of her previous lover, and her entrance into this flower-strewn garden reads like a fond reminiscence of a time of when her romantic desires weren't blocked by a mediocre husband. The actual appearance of the former lover ruins it, though: just a little too real for her. This leads me to think her thoughts in the garden are half memory and half fantasy. The tension between the two pushed her toward that divided sensation she feels towards the end of the episode. ("It was as if some membrane had been torn in two in her, so that she was not an entity that could think and feel"). You could say that the flowers are part of her problem, but I don't know if you could claim they're hollow and not real. They seem pretty genuine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I will not repost what you quoted, but it was very interesting informaiton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes that is true, she just rubbed me the wrong way, and I do not think my opinon of her will soften.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think there was some deciption in the begining, she did not just accidently return to the place where she had been with her first love, but it seemed untill she was forced to tell her husband the truth, becasue of the encounter she had, she had no real intention of doing so, but remained vauged about why she wanted to go back to that spot. And it seemed she was trying to keep her husband from knowing the truth by insisting he said nothing of who she was or of her having lived there before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I might feel differently if I beleived she had any affection for her husband whatsoever, but it seems she is showing no concern for his own feelings. It seems that he truly loved her and she led him to beleive that she would return those feelings by agreeing to marry him, but then she is horribly mean to him and shows no love for him. I think the fact that her heart still seems to be with her old lover, even when she thought him dead, she clearly had not gotten over him, is in a way being unfaithful to the man she married.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
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Originally Posted by Quark
Well my opinion of the woman being what it is, the way I interpted the roses, were reflecting her own shallowness. Not to say the roses were not real, but they are an expression of the fact that her beuaty is only extneral. For she did not to me appear to have much attraction behind her apperance. As the roses are only pretty to look at and to veiw them might bring one joy, but other than that they do not offer much more.
I'm going to have to go back and read some more of your posts. I actually thought she was a likable character. I found the self-absorbed husband to be more shallow. I'll go back and look at the earlier post and see if I still feel that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quark, you are finally here; glad you didn't forget us. I agree with your observations and interpretation. I agree with what you say "she has a rather idealized notion of her previous lover" - well it has been 10 yrs since she last layed eyes on him, so her memory would be faded somewhat, and I think we do tend to 'idealise' those who pass from us, especially those who die. I think this is a totally realistic depiction of what would happen, if a woman were to encounter the man, she had been intimate with and loved and believed deceased. It is an interesting scenerio. I agree that her walk through the garden is 'half memory and half fantasy.' I find that sentence you quoted, particularly revealing of her state of mind at this time " It was as if some membrane had been torn in two in her, so that she was not an entity that could think or feel". Therefore I don't think we can hold her totally responsible for not being able at this time to coherently communicate with her husband. We don't know what has transpired between husband and wife in the last 10 yrs either. Have they been happily married or at loose ends with each other. I don't think we have enough information to pass judgement on either one of them. The story has few characters and basically no one else who knows the couple, so any information is internal to each of them - the husband and the wife, until they comfront each other with this situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Here too one can see how discheveled her mind is at this point - how much shock she is experiencing:
I wondered if the ring had been her engagement ring since it now was on his little finger. He might have taken it away with him to the war as a token of her love. Quite blantantly the author says "The whole world was deranged."Quote:
She was mute and helpless. He was scrupulously dressed in dark clothes and a linen coat. She could not move. Seeing his hands, with the ring she knew so well upon the little finger, she felt as if she were going dazed. The whole world was deranged. She sat unavailing. For his hands, her symbols of passionate love, filled her with horror as they rested now on his strong thighs.
That is funny how people can read so differently into the same thing. As my view is the exzact oppoiste of your own. I felt sympahty for the husband while I was turned off by the woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I identified more with the woman and the idea of returning to a place that had been special to you and full of memories of love. I have done this myself, but of course never again encountered the person. I can imagine the shock if I had.
I didn't think badly of either characters, throughout this story. I merely tried to understand them and their relationship and the way they reacted to each other at this particular time. One doesn't know how they act or react to each other on a daily basis. Lawrence usually writes in this manner with some questions at the end of a story, open for our own interpretation, so I did not think it any different of this, than other stories he had written. I can't see that Lawrence would judge either person harshly. In "Sons and Lovers" his father could be a true brut at times, and yet he found times in the book to show his side and lend sympathy to the very human qualities of his character and what made him as he was. I always see this balance in Lawrence's writing, so I could not feel any different about these two very 'human' characters, who I know little about, on a personal level.
Did anyone else notice just how often the word shadow is mentioned in this story? I will try and post some of the passages and underline the words, later on tonight. I still have not totally re-read the story; I had planned it last night and then got side-tracked while researching this story and was reading Lawrence's early letters - how fascinating they are.
I think the various uses of 'shadow' in this story is quite significant.
Yep, used so many times when she makes her way to the rose garden. The shadow of her sunshade, a shadow crossing her. An omen of what is to happen I suppose.
Unfortunately I haven't had the time to read much of the previous posts:(. I don't think I'll be able to came here much in the coming week, lots and lots of tests. But I'll try to read all of it.
That's ok, Hira, very understandable. School must come first! I have been working on some new posts, mostly about this idea of shadow and contrasts of the light. Also, the colour red, which is quite prominent in the story. I will post those next and if you find the time you can read them whenever you find the time. This thread is ongoing and will always be active I am sure so there is no time limit. Best of luck with your tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
An email will be coming shortly; yours is next in line. Thanks for being patient.
Yes i did notice that. I think that the use of the word shadow, could perhaps be another instance of foreshadow as to what she is about to discover, that her lover is still alive, but only a shadow of himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
And to me shadows can somtimes have a haunting feel to them, and with the woman's obcession with her past, in a way it is as if she is being haunted by her past or her memories and her lover is like a shadow that looms over her marriage or perhaps blocks the light from it.
Hi Dark Muse, sorry about that, I didn't see you there until I posted just now - we must have posted same time, althought this has taken me awhile to write. My brain is aching. Yes, I agree with what you just posted and this is a excellent idea/thought, also:
Quote by Dark Muse:
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And to me shadows can somtimes have a haunting feel to them, and with the woman's obcession with her past, in a way it is as if she is being haunted by her past or her memories and her lover is like a shadow that looms over her marriage or perhaps blocks the light from it.
I noticed that people in this story view others or themselves within frames - such as mirrors, windows, arches, doorways, etc.
The husband viewing his own image:
The husband viewing his wife's image:Quote:
He caught sight of his own face in a little mirror,..
Referring to Mrs. Coates viewing the couple together:Quote:
Then again he turned to survey the bedroom windows overlooking the garden. He started, seeing a woman's figure; but it was only his wife.
.Quote:
The delightful, erect old lady hastened to the window for a good view of her visitors
The woman viewing the courtyard:
..and later on approaching the rose garden:Quote:
The uncurtained windows looked black and soulless, the kitchen door stood open. Irresolutely she took a step forward, and again forward, leaning, yearning, towards the garden…
That last part underlined seems like the final window or passage into that other world of the past in the rose garden, which is magical in her memory and mind.Quote:
…Glancing round, she saw all the windows giving on to the lawn were curtainless and dark.......
She went across the lawn towards the garden, through an arch of crimson ramblers, a gate of colour.
*******
Also, I noted the repetitive use of the word shadow and light, varied in different ways, throughout the story:
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She wore a hat with roses, and a long lace scarf hung over her white dress. Rather nervously, she put up her sunshade, and her face was half-hidden in its [/u]coloured shadow[/U].
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Under this she went slowly, stopping at length by an open doorway, which shone like a picture of light in the dark wall.
Particularly in this last passage, she passes from this magic glittering, luminous, sunny world into the courtyard and this moment ends with her viewing the house shrouded in shadow. This is a very forbodding image and forshadowing of what will come. This writing so beautifully leads up to the meeting with her former lover, who indeed is a human shadow.Quote:
There in the magic beyond the doorway, patterns of shadow lay on the sunny court, on the blue and white sea-pebbles of its paving, while a green lawn glowed beyond, where a bay tree glittered at the edges. She tiptoed nervously into the courtyard, glancing at the house that stood in shadow.
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The uncurtained windows looked black and soulless…
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…Glancing round, she saw all the windows giving on to the lawn were curtainless and dark. The house had a sterile appearance, as if it were still used, but not inhabited. A shadow seemed to go over her. She went across the lawn towards the garden, through an arch of crimson ramblers, a gate of colour.
Interesting contrasts of cool blues and deep blacks, also. Below is the quote -the 'darkness of the tree-tops covering the beck'. 'Misty' also makes me think of shadows; so the morning is full of 'shadows and mist'.Quote:
There beyond lay the soft blue sea with the bay, misty with morning, and the farthest headland of black rock jutting dimly out between blue and blue of the sky and water.
Her face began to shine, transfigured with pain and joy. At her feet the garden fell steeply, all a confusion of flowers, and away below was the darkness of tree-tops covering the beck. [/quote]
This use of the word transfigured is emensely important. Transfiguration is a word often used by Lawrence and part of his philosophy and beliefs. Here the woman passes back into time and is transfigured by pain and joy. This seems to suggest to me the shedding of blood that Lawrence spoke of so often and the combination of the 'pain and joy' in order to reach this moment of transfiguration.
Interesting that he moves silently as a shadow would, unheard...silent.Quote:
Then she started cruelly as a shadow crossed her and a figure moved into her sight. It was a man who had come in slippers, unheard.
The linen coat suggests a whitish light garment as well.Quote:
He wore a linen coat. The morning was shattered, the spell vanished away.
So I wondered if this last passage meant her transformation also, had been shattered and the magic left her - the spell had vanished away.
*****
I also noted colours used in the story - notably, the reds and whites.
Interesting colour contrast here. She sits among the 'white' roses, her dress is pure 'white', and her sunshade is 'scarlet'. I noticed 'reds' and 'scarlet' and 'flame' colours used throughout the story, in contrast with the white or blue or pure light. I wondered if this indicated references to purity/illumination/blood. I know in other stories of Lawrence’s these are repeated themes. I wondered if this woman, having suffered the revisiting of the old lover, experiences this deep wound which the crimson represents or suggests. Could this be a form of forshadowing in the story? In the beginning, the apple, which her husband bites into, is 'brownish red'. I found this to be strange and thought of the colour of dried blood. The next red reference seemed to be the ‘dark red’ gooseberries. Those seem to be particularly noted in the text - twice noticed by her. As she walked through the rose garden, there were many references to red among the roses:Quote:
Hastily, she went to a little seat among the white roses, and sat down. Her scarlet sunshade made a hard blot of colour.
[quote]Then the references change to 'white' and even 'ice':Quote:
Suddenly she was touching some heavy crimson roses that were soft as velvet……. Sometimes a flame-coloured, scentless rose would hold her arrested
Then she goes to the corner with the seat among the white roses.Quote:
Then she wondered over the white rose, that was greenish, like ice, in the centre. So, slowly, like a white, pathetic butterfly, she drifted down the path, coming at last to a tiny terrace all full of roses.
In the last story Virgil made reference to Lawrence idea of a person being as a flower. In this case the woman is like the rose, but one that does not come into full blossom.Quote:
She sat quite still, feeling her own existence lapse. She was no more than a rose, a rose that could not quite come into blossom, but remained tense.
I picture the black fly against the pure white dress, another fine contrast. A moment before the woman was referred to as a 'white butterfly' and now another winged insect is used to show the forshadowing...interesting....Quote:
A little fly dropped on her knee, on her white dress. She watched it, as if it had fallen on a rose. She was not herself.