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...or the Pope, if you're a true bluff traditionalist...Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
We are getting a little too political again - I didn't particularly want us to debate the relative merits of Thatcher/Thatcherism, but rather the ethics of celebrating death!
Well since you have brought religion into it, I think a biblical qotation might be appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb
Deuteronomy 19:21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Not that I am a great one for biblical quotations, as it is a book that seeks to be all things to all men and it's not
difficult to find an alternative to many of its nostrums.
It's all down to how you interpret it. At the same time as the implementation of policies which made some people unemployed, others were cashing in on the sale of publicly owned assets like the rail network. If you were a winner at the time, no doubt you'd think Thatcher was the best thing since sliced bread. Her schoolmarmy manner was similarly applauded by some sections of society, whilst others - myself included - felt she had a horrible manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
I think there may be people who would celebrate Tony Blair's death. He, like Thatcher, was in office for over two terms and, as the figurehead, took the flak for what was Labour policy on Iraq. He was hated by a lot of people, though it is a different section of society that fell out with him. As for other PMs - they didn't cause that perception of grievance with large sections as Thatcher and Blair did.
I think we've skirted it quite well through the medium of history. It was always going to be difficult with Thatcher on topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
This is also true because they just let the rot go on until the IMF had to bail out the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I wasn't "bringing religion into it" (other than in a very tangential way, by quoting a "legendary" figure -- I'm not personally religious). However, an "eye for an eye" clearly makes no distinction based on ego-centric "perspective". Under Roman law, the plaintiff in what we would now call a criminal trial was the injured party. If you murdered someone with no close relatives, there would be no "plaintiff", and thus no trial. Today, the plaintiff in criminal trials is the State (in the U.S., the "Crown" in the U.K.). WE have correctly determined that breaking the law is an offense against The State (which made the laws in the first place). Therefore a "perspective" based on the personal harm done to the victim SHOULD have no bearing on the prosecution of the criminal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Miller
Well they do say it is not about how you start it is about the finish and her finish was not particularly celebratory. I think that deserves a pause or too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
To begin is to end on a high note that way people cherish the thought and the memory is long lasting.
Her end with politics was anything but commemorative and she had to live with that. You bring in as much as you get in and I think justice was served. I doubt many would cherish the thought let alone remember.
"Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habit. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.”
:):)
And watch your destiny it becomes your life?! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by liza
Well I'm glad I've not got to get my wallet out for it. There would have been more than a tad of irony involved don't you think, if the state had foot the bill for such an anti-statist?
Well another way of looking at it would be to say that she was a nationalist viz. anti federal Europe, and defender of the Falklands; in which case, the nation could well be called on to foot the bill. It's the other lot who are hell bent on destroying the nation state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
The irony of it all is that if it were to be a state funeral you would have foot the bill regardless of how you feel. Call that democracy more like hypocrisy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Neely, the state is going to be footing a significant proportion of the bill. Full details are not known yet, but all that has been said is Thatcher's estate wil be making a 'contribution'. More here http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22077919Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Well said!Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
Yes Mrs N has just informed me (I've been out all day). Total and utter joke. No money and suddenly 10 million from the state for someone who all but destroyed it and didn't believe it in. Hypocrisy indeed. Have to raid the disabled a little more.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
I hope they put it out to tender (the funeral) and sell tickets, and TV rights. Corporate packages available. They could also have sponsers - Coffin by tetrapak- that sort of thing, and turn a profit.
She would approve.
Where did you get that figure from? And as this article points out, it could easily be argued that the amount Margaret Thatcher did to help the country more than compensates for the funeral costs (I must add that this isn't my view, since I don't actually know a huge amount on what she did, this is just what one article is saying).Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
You're kidding right? Trolling or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Volya
Mrs N mentioned it, read it or seen it somewhere I don't know.
Given the population of GB is ~62 million people, your part of the bill would be roughly 16p. I'm sure you could find someone who's willing to pay you back :ihih:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
I'm sorry, that wasn't very nice. I know that's really not the point.
I have just been to my local Sainsbury's convenience store and the figure of £10 million is the headline of the Daily Mirror. Enough said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
No? What gave you that idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Yes she will have probably read it in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Miller
I've just seen on the news that the exact figure of state expenditure is being kept a close secret until after the funeral. It's a total joke that it is costing us anything, and not a little ironic as I say, that such a firm believer in the private sector is costing the state any money at all. A final little twist of the knife.
Some funny things I've read or seen this week about her that I didn't know:
• She supported white rule and the apartheid in South Africa and called Nelson Mandela a ‘terrorist’
• Believed in the Berlin wall and did not want Germany re-united
• Believed that writers should get a proper job
• Commented that if a man over 25 is still using public transport then he is a failure!
Our current PM, Stephen Harper, also supported apartheid in South Africa during the 80's, it was a popular position of the right-wing at the time.
The celebration doesn't serve anyone, but I look forward to celebrating the death of Robert Mugabe, for one. Once he's gone, there might be a chance of change in Zimbabwe that does not exist while he lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
Some people are so evil that I have no compunction celebrating their deaths.
I'm biting my metaphorical tongue after all that utter bo11ox in The House yesterday. (By the way neely, MPs could claim over £3000 each in travel expences to attend.)
I'm not into celebrating the death of anybody, but neither am I into these sugared eulogies. Yesterday we saw History being kidnapped and rewritten. When I die, I'd like an honest appraisal please, as Oliver Cromwell said "Warts and all"
Edit: just seen Glenda Jackson's "tribute" - that's more like it!
Speaking of Harper, he actually said something that I liked (I know, how weird is that?) when Osama was killed. He said that Canadians recieve the news with "somber satisfaction."Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
That's it, right there. We should conduct ourselves with "somber satisfaction" when people who we believe to have caused harm die, not open jubilation. The only exception I can think of where celebration is warrented is when their death leads to people actually being liberated.
Edit: Also, regarding this specific example, I don't have an opinion on Thatcher's death since I thought she was dead already. She was influential decades ago, her death doesn't affect anything. I think that most people are faking their feelings about her death, the "sympathizers" certainly, but also the celebrants. Thatcher isn't a person who died, she's a symbol of what they either like or don't like, and their actions in light of her death are a reflection of their opinion. So, it's not so much "ghoulish" to me as it is self-stroking, in a completely pointless and admittedly quite tasteless way.
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Originally Posted by cacian
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Originally Posted by Neely
I never thought I would see the day.
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Originally Posted by prendrelemick
It all just makes me want to leave the country and live in a hole somewhere.
Edit: Yes I've just watched it on You Tube, pretty good no nonsense.
My thoughts exactly. They Tories are being paticularly hypocritical seeing as they had nothing to do with her after she was deposed, and left it to Gordon Brown to welcome her back.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
As Juniper noted - she did support some ver controversial policies - Apartheid and I remember her being dead against German Unification. How wrong that was.
I also think that those who are condemning communities for celebrating her death have no real understanding of what effect her policies had for the ordinary working people in industrial areas, particularly from other countries. She was good for the Yuppies, and very bad for the working class. Of course we needed to change, but communities were treated with contempt. The fact that they were labour strongholds clearly contributed to the lack of compassion for communities they had no contact with - and don't today.
The other thing she was well known for was for stopping school milk. When I was at school we all used to get a small bottle of milk at break time - an overhang from leaner times. We shoud have known what was coming.
There will be a time and a place for assessments of the work of Margaret Thatcher - this isn't it. She isn't even in her grave yet - whatever happened to De mortuis nil nisi bonum? It went out of the window with other expressions of good manners, I think. In the past few years she has been far from the Saviour of the Country/Monstrous Tyrant (depending on from which end of the political spectrum she is viewed): she has been a sad, demented old woman for whom death may well have been a merciful release. I'd like to see her laid to rest in dignity and peace, much as I hope to be treated myself. I've asked for no eulogies at my funeral (I've sat in too many churches and chapels wondering if I'm at the right funeral ) - though I won't be around to find out if my wishes are respected. I don't expect the fulsome gushings of the past few days nor, I hope, will there be too much dancing on my grave: I don't think I've earned either, but I'm not a public figure who inspired widely differing opinions. Difficult though it may be, I feel at this time she should be treated as an ordinary mortal and accorded some basic human dignity.
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R e m i n d e r
Please note that discussion of current politics is not allowed on this Forum.
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The Tories are putting their foot in it and so is Labour. Their speeches and adoration of and about Maggie is not looking good. Both have forgotten they have elections to run. The population is listening and is not thinking great things of both of them. Their views an opinions on Maggie is going to backlash against them. and it would be both the tories and labour fault for not thinking ahead of schedule. UKIP's prospect is looking good. Not very clever if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Before this thread is closed down, I 'd just like to say Kasie's right as usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by kasie
The "celebration" of someone's death should probably be rephrased as an "anti-eulogy" so that an opposing position can be presented.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
Truelogy?
Ah, truelogy. That's what every eulogy and anti-eulogy thinks it is already.
The creation of history reminds me of a study of Samuel and Kings portraying the documents as propaganda justifying Solomon's right to rule after his military coup. All other accounts were eliminated. It would be as if only eulogies to Thatcher were allowed to survive.
At least today we have the internet to record dissent.
I'm planning to see The Iron Lady this weekend. Did this movie fairly represent Thatcher?
Against all my expectations (or call them prejudices if you will) I found the film very moving. I never expected to find myself feeling sorry for her but I thought the film tried to show her as a fallible human with a family who loved her in spite of her failings, as well as a political figure who left such a mark for good or ill on the country. Meryl Streep's performance was outstanding - for once I forgot I was watching Meryl Streep and found her portrayal realistic and sympathetic. The political issues were dealt with a light touch, it was a portrait of a woman in decline rather than an analysis of her success or failure in a position of power. Her tragedy was shown less as a fall from might than as a sad all too human decline which could afflict any one of us. I've watched a beloved family member fade in just such a way and I felt the film dealt tenderly not just with the suffering of the woman herself but with the grief it brought her family and true friends.
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Originally Posted by kasie
And a Carol.
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Originally Posted by Neely
She probably ate babies for breakfast as well but, as far as the last comment, I personally have seen Jo Grimond (former Liberal Party leader) and Dennis Skinner (the Beast of Bolsover) on the London underground. David Milliband was also recently photographed asleep in an underground train carriage as well. So perhaps there's something to be said in favour of Mrs Thatcher's assertion.
But you already do dear boy, it's called the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Considering how far North of Watford Gordon Brown's constituency is, his welcoming Mrs Thatcher to Downing Street does seem a bit odd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
This is the second coherent post you have made in this thread, could the troll's mask be slipping?Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
Ha, ha, yes. I was thinking about buying a caravan and living in the woods. I'm only partially joking as well!Quote:
But you already do dear boy, it's called the UK.
Either her account has been hacked or she's just come off a 10 year bender.:cheers2:Quote:
This is the second coherent post you have made in this thread, could the troll's mask be slipping?
This would be the most tasteful thing to do, but it seems we don't live in tasteful times.Quote:
Ideally it would be a quiet and dignified service, as you pointed out.
I agree too, but the eulogists have the news and the stand, and, while I personally would want someone to be treated with dignity, and find it unfortunate mainly for the rest of her family, I felt I had to state just what motivates communities to celebrate her death. They were very difficult times for certain sections of the country as you know, and i felt the balance needed to be made a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by kasie
Ideally it would be a quiet and dignified service, as you pointed out.