Gender Roles

I embrace bacteria.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

A new trend is actually starting where women receive more backlash if they do decide to be a homemaker or stay-at-home mom, almost always from other women.

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This is something Bill O'Reilly would say, or some other hack job conservative Republican on Fox News. Research shows that it is those women who choose to go out and work, rather than those who stay home with the kids, who receive society's scorn.

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The idea of a woman's place being a homemaker is incredibly antiquated.

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Is it? Then why do women still do the majority of the housework even though they and their partners may both be working full-time? Women up and down your country and mine are still toiling through that unpaid 'second shift'. It looks like you are speaking from your own perceptions of the world and not the bigger picture.

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Before my mom went to working part-time, my dad did 90% of the cooking and 100% of the cleaning. The only thing he didn't do the most of was the laundry. My mom made more money, too. These situations aren't at all out of the norm now.

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Did your mother work full-time before she worked part-time? If so, then the situation you go on to outline is the one which is not the norm. Usually the spouse who earns the most money affords the larger bargaining power when it comes to deciding who does the housework (men earn more = men do less housework), but in those rare situations when the higher earner is a woman, she will still find herself doing the majority of the housework. There are many reasons for this, and in fact many of them are comical.

I think modern men do finally understand the importance of chipping in and helping their partner out with housework, but very few men actually do it, and when they do help out they expect a reward. You can't expect big changes like gender role reform to happen across a generation, or even a few: Men are emotional, so when he has grown up watching his mother do all the housework, he learns from that situation and sees it as the norm, i.e. there exists a constant conflict between his modern sensibilities and his implicit sense of what 'natural' gender roles should be.

I'm not sure how you can know what women up and down the country do except from a limited anecdotal view - which may or may not be as you say.

In my anecdotal experience, the men I talk to seem to have come to a compromise about the jobs they do with their partners.

but very few men actually do it, and when they do help out they expect a reward.


Men are emotional, so when he has grown up watching his mother do all the housework, he learns from that situation and sees it as the norm,

There's no way you can know most men and judge what very few men do or think. In my opinion that's just another stereotype that's too simplistic to give any idea of what goes on.

There are tidy, lazy, busy, slothful, demanding, obsessive compulsive, hysterical, control freaky men and women.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

Haha, I once went knocking on doors on the first floor of my appartment building looking for someone to open a jar. I needed spaghetti sauce! The first three doors were two chicks and one guy who couldn't get it open either, but on the fourth door the rig guys living there took it as a challenge and pried a big hole in the lid with a screwdriver.

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I never give up, if I can't open it I use the handle on a spoon and jam it under the lid to let some air in, that makes it easier. but that is a kind of a funny house call, 'hey can you open a jar for me?'

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

Bah! Let death claim me, I ain't cleaning ****.

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Well little lady, with that attitude you will never find yourself a respectable husband.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I'm not sure how you can know what women up and down the country do except from a limited anecdotal view - which may or may not be as you say.

In my anecdotal experience, the men I talk to seem to have come to a compromise about the jobs they do with their partners.

but very few men actually do it, and when they do help out they expect a reward.


Men are emotional, so when he has grown up watching his mother do all the housework, he learns from that situation and sees it as the norm,

There's no way you can know most men and judge what very few men do or think. In my opinion that's just another stereotype that's too simplistic to give any idea of what goes on.

There are tidy, lazy, busy, slothful, demanding, obsessive compulsive, hysterical, control freaky men and women.

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How annoying that you assumed I was being simply anecdotal :lol: ... I was drawing on a field of psychological research into the division of labour in the home. Should I really be called upon to provide links and references for every point I make? My aim was deliberately to refute Mustatis' conclusions which he drew from his own anecdotal experiences, and I made that quite clear.

I will provide links but you have to promise you will read them. Otherwise a good summary of the last twenty years of this research can be found in Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender. It's kind of my area.

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

This is something Bill O'Reilly would say, or some other hack job conservative Republican on Fox News. Research shows that it is those women who choose to go out and work, rather than those who stay home with the kids, who receive society's scorn.

Is it? Then why do women still do the majority of the housework even though they and their partners may both be working full-time? Women up and down your country and mine are still toiling through that unpaid 'second shift'. It looks like you are speaking from your own perceptions of the world and not the bigger picture.

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Tell that to the women and professors in my class on feminism. These aren't even my own theories, it was stuff I learned in class, stuff brought up by women way mor into the whole feminism thing.

Also, I said a new TREND, i.e., it's not the norm, but it is gaining popularity.

Thirdly, women making more money is not at all uncommon. Again, not saying its the norm--we still have the problem of a woman making 3/4 of what a man does doing the same job, which is incredibly backwards--just saying it isn't all that rare.

I went to a seminar (given by two feminists) who discussed how, for some feminists, it's hard for them to transition from fighting for everything to actually accepting some victories have been made. They don't know how to transition from fighting to accosting, so one of two things happens: they start fighting and nit-picking over the most trivial of things, or just refuse to see some actual change has happened. You sound like one of those, Babyguile, the latter specifically.

Also, yes, when you say "research shows," maybe you should post the "research."

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

How annoying that you assumed I was being simply anecdotal :lol: ... I was drawing on a field of psychological research into the division of labour in the home. Should I really be called upon to provide links and references for every point I make? My aim was deliberately to refute Mustatis' conclusions which he drew from his own anecdotal experiences, and I made that quite clear.

I will provide links but you have to promise you will read them. Otherwise a good summary of the last twenty years of this research can be found in Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender. It's kind of my area.

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Ok but you didn't say so. I'll take your word for research, no problem.

Don't be annoyed - it's merely a good natured discussion.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

I embrace bacteria.

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Haha does it embrace you though?:lol:
do you believe bacteria is natural to the human body?

~

W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your arguments or discuss each other.

Those who fail to show respect others' views will receive infraction points.

~

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

Tell that to the women and professors in my class on feminism. These aren't even my own theories, it was stuff I learned in class, stuff brought up by women way mor into the whole feminism thing.

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Well 'feminists' is not a homogenous group and we don't have to agree with eachother. You can talk to feminists and get a range of views but I was drawing on peer-reviewed psychological research with no feminist agenda.

You didn't make any 'theories' you just recited a lot of misconceptions which are worryingly prevalent among conservatives (and conservative feminists), and they are attitudes which I think are damaging feminist progress. We have made some progress but not as much as you assumed, and as I said, you cannot expect to dispel gender perceptions and constructions in a generation or two. There is a lot of reform that hasn't even begun: areas where women don't even have the means to acheive "equality".

Meh. I'm not going to go back and forth with you, Babyguile (I know you don't like me, so you're personal distaste of me will cloud the issue and render any valid points I make moot). Anyone who's been here as long as you should know I'm one of the biggest feminists on this board.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Ok but you didn't say so. I'll take your word for research, no problem.

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I won't.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

Anyone who's been here as long as you should know I'm one of the biggest feminists on this board.

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Well it's nice to know you have good intentions.

Gender quarrels again haha. Where would we be without our differences?
I am guessing not very far.:D

Men and women are different and will have different tastes, predilections, ways of spending time. I've met amazing women, smart women, smarter than me, who aspired to be wives and mothers. Being a wife and a mother is the toughest job out there. Raising a kid right is TOUGH. The women who spend their time doing it should be respected, not demeaned.

This is my beef with some feminists.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/17927430.jpg

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

How annoying that you assumed I was being simply anecdotal :lol: ... I was drawing on a field of psychological research into the division of labour in the home. Should I really be called upon to provide links and references for every point I make? My aim was deliberately to refute Mustatis' conclusions which he drew from his own anecdotal experiences, and I made that quite clear.

I will provide links but you have to promise you will read them. Otherwise a good summary of the last twenty years of this research can be found in Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender. It's kind of my area.

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I still think the picture is much more complex than you originally said. It seems a simplification. Without putting yourself out, would you expand a little?

It is true that most commercials put females into the cleaning/cooking role. When they use men, they always depict them as incompetant idiots. "Derp! Gee honey, instead of buying socks for the kids I just thought it would be a good idea to dip their feet in white paint but now there's paint all over the floor!" -actual commercial.

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Originally Posted by Helga

I never give up, if I can't open it I use the handle on a spoon and jam it under the lid to let some air in, that makes it easier. but that is a kind of a funny house call, 'hey can you open a jar for me?'

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Haha I know, one of the women I asked was East Indian or something and didn't speak english very well, she thought I was giving her a jar of spaghetti sauce. She handed it back, "oh, no thank you!"

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Originally Posted by Alexander III

Well little lady, with that attitude you will never find yourself a respectable husband.

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Haha, maybe my revulsion of housekeeping is the result of that subconcious plan.

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

Then why do women still do the majority of the housework even though they and their partners may both be working full-time? Women up and down your country and mine are still toiling through that unpaid 'second shift'.

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Well why don't they just not do it?

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

Being a wife and a mother is the toughest job out there.

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People are always saying that, it's so dishonest. I don't think being a stay-at-home mom in any way compares, in arduousness, physical danger, and/or potential for psychological trauma or burnout, to:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...a_1401835c.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...lance_4495.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...hina-zoom2.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...ss-400x400.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...canologist.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...th_longwa1.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...h_er_nurse.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...risonguard.jpg

I mean sure, watching endless daytime tv and cleaning up after screaming brats is a boring and sh*tty (often literally) job, but "the toughest job out there?" I really don't think so. I don't get why it's supposed to be a big deal that women work anyway, my momma worked 50 hours/week and I've always done better in school and life than my classmates who had moms around the house all day. First she was a waitress (stressful job), and while she was waitressing she was studying to be an accounant because she had me when she was seventeen before she could go to college, and from the time I was sixteen on she worked at the havoc-riddled local wood mill as their accountant. My mother is the epitome of "hard work," it benefited me to see that growing up, and plus it made me proud of her.

I think women who decide to stay at home and raise kids should be respected for that choice but as Juniper said I don't think it's the toughest job. The women on the pictures above probably most of them have kids and do both. A tough job and raise kids.

When it comes to work or staying home people should be able to do what they want to.

Oh and by the way there are more than a few stay at home dads here on the ice.

Also somebody mentioned that men need to be complimented if they do a household chore, my ex was like that. If he vacuumed and I didn't say something the minuet I got home he'd be all upset and say' can't you see I vacuumed?' This annoyed me a lot so I started doing it all the time 'didn't you notice I cleaned the toilet?'

that stopped him.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

It is true that most commercials put females into the cleaning/cooking role. When they use men, they always depict them as incompetant idiots. "Derp! Gee honey, instead of buying socks for the kids I just thought it would be a good idea to dip their feet in white paint but now there's paint all over the floor!" -actual commercial.

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Reminds me of an ad over here in Australia for some kitchen appliance with the tagline "So simple, even a man could understand it"

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Originally Posted by Pierre Menard

Reminds me of an ad over here in Australia for some kitchen appliance with the tagline "So simple, even a man could understand it"

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Interesting pun although who else is supposed to understand it if it was not a a person/man?
A screw and hammer?

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

It is true that most commercials put females into the cleaning/cooking role. When they use men, they always depict them as incompetant idiots. "Derp! Gee honey, instead of buying socks for the kids I just thought it would be a good idea to dip their feet in white paint but now there's paint all over the floor!" -actual commercial.



Haha I know, one of the women I asked was East Indian or something and didn't speak english very well, she thought I was giving her a jar of spaghetti sauce. She handed it back, "oh, no thank you!"



Haha, maybe my revulsion of housekeeping is the result of that subconcious plan.



Well why don't they just not do it?



People are always saying that, it's so dishonest. I don't think being a stay-at-home mom in any way compares, in arduousness, physical danger, and/or potential for psychological trauma or burnout, to:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...a_1401835c.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...lance_4495.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...hina-zoom2.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...ss-400x400.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...canologist.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...th_longwa1.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...h_er_nurse.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...risonguard.jpg

I mean sure, watching endless daytime tv and cleaning up after screaming brats is a boring and sh*tty (often literally) job, but "the toughest job out there?" I really don't think so. I don't get why it's supposed to be a big deal that women work anyway, my momma worked 50 hours/week and I've always done better in school and life than my classmates who had moms around the house all day. First she was a waitress (stressful job), and while she was waitressing she was studying to be an accounant because she had me when she was seventeen before she could go to college, and from the time I was sixteen on she worked at the havoc-riddled local wood mill as their accountant. My mother is the epitome of "hard work," it benefited me to see that growing up, and plus it made me proud of her.

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You have great genes and grew up in a small town environment and from what you say I gather that you had/have great parents. Your intellectual and moral success was a given.

In order to really respond I must go off on a rant about advertising. Picture me seated at a kitchen table, smoking a tobacco pipe, ranting lividly, pulling out my beard as I speak.

Kids today are crazy. We have 11 year old boys pressuring girls to perform sexual acts on them. We have homophobia beyond what should be tolerated. Kids today are wired to the hilt. Many are fat. Many do not play outside. I remember when the shift took place. I was about 12 years old. Playstation was invented. I was always a big gamer, but Sega had its limitations. After six hours of Sonic or Mortal Combat it got boring and so me and my friends would hop on our bikes and go tear around the roads and trails like the happy free-born children we were. But playstation was so awesome, so much more fun, we would never get bored. We began spending all our time INSIDE. Then the internet got big. I was one of the first kids to become an internet addict, because my brother got a computer from the home-schooling program. I would go on the original file-sharing programs for endless hours. Now, except in the summer or for weekend parties on the beach, we would never go outside. We started not getting exercise. I saw friends gain weight, develop psychological disorders, get lazy.

This is a case in point. In the 1950s you had every housewife watching television and being told she had to buy divers products that served no real purpose other than satisfying some inherent human craving to have and hoard. Often the husband could not afford to buy all these things, or he considered them useless, and so the woman would have to go get a job in order to buy all these things. The way the ads presented the products it made it seem like her very womanhood depended on her having all these things - cleaning products, clothing items, everything beyond the basics.

In my opinion a strong and happy and virile youth is one of the most beautiful things on this earth. There is so much hope and promise in youthful virtue. It takes a lot of effort to raise someone not to be lazy or bullying or idiotic. Society itself is insane and judgemental, it takes a lot of parenting to prevent children from falling prey to negative societal pressures.

My parents did a good job raising me, but television and the internet also played a major role in my mental formation. I'm not saying this is all bad, I love television and the internet, but I think it stunted my development. I often act like a teenager. I blame the fact that advertising ruined traditional family roles and so my mother was out working 40-50 hours a week, often 6 days a week, when she could have been tutoring me in math and telling me to be strong and virtuous and all that. Mostly I only had her example of hard-work and virtue and the actual lessons were not said. She was usually too tired from work.

This whole mothering-as-hard-job conversation makes me think of this from one of my favorite stand-up comedians:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rwPg2oarG_c

"These mothers are bending over at the waist putting DVDs into DVD players. I don't know how they do it! . . . Any job you can do in your pajamas is not a difficult Job, alright?" :lol:

(And before someone gets their panties in a twist, remember that it's comedy.)

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

This whole mothering-as-hard-job conversation makes me think of this from one of my favorite stand-up comedians:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rwPg2oarG_c

"These mothers are bending over at the waist putting DVDs into DVD players. I don't know how they do it! . . . Any job you can do in your pajamas is not a difficult Job, alright?" :lol:

(And before someone gets their panties in a twist, remember that it's comedy.)

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Just be careful with your jokes. Nowadays we must remain politically correct. At all costs. Even at the cost of truth.

True story. :party:

Politically correct comedy is by far the worst comedy there is.

More of Burr's thoughts on women's issues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr162OZ2Z0w

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

Politically correct comedy is by far the worst comedy there is.

More of Burr's thoughts on women's issues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr162OZ2Z0w

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He's pretty hilarious. He goes far. Some of his stuff freaks even me out and I say pretty freaky stuff often.

I am pro-equality between men and women. But I will not ignore and try to diminish the differences between the sexes. Men and women are different and the beauty of their union comes from this difference. They are perfectly complimentary, as God and Nature intended.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

I am pro-equality between men and women. But I will not ignore and try to diminish the differences between the sexes. Men and women are different and the beauty of their union comes from this difference. They are perfectly complimentary, as God and Nature intended.

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You buy into romantic myths and you prove this with almost every post you make.

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

You buy into romantic myths and you prove this with almost every post you make.

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That's because I cause romantic myths. I am romantic. I spout romantic stuff to women like I'm making up sonnets on the fly. I go out and buy them random jewelry and flowers. When I love a girl I try to woo her like few other men these days try to woo.

And when I love a woman my love for that woman sticks through my breast plate and into my heart like a 12 inch pin that can't be taken out.

The myths are there for a reason. A lot of the reason women say things like you just said is that they have not met a guy like me to make them believe in romance again.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

That's because I cause romantic myths. I am romantic. I spout romantic stuff to women like I'm making up sonnets on the fly. I go out and buy them random jewelry and flowers. When I love a girl I try to woo her like few other men these days try to woo.

And when I love a woman my love for that woman sticks through my breast plate and into my heart like a 12 inch pin that can't be taken out.

The myths are there for a reason. A lot of the reason women say things like you just said is that they have not met a guy like me to make them believe in romance again.

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And they won't meet that guy because they don't want to meet that guy. They're too attached to their militaristic feminist views.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

And they won't meet that guy because they don't want to meet that guy. They're too attached to their militaristic feminist views.

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Bingo Mutatis, bingo.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

That's because I cause romantic myths. I am romantic. I spout romantic stuff to women like I'm making up sonnets on the fly. I go out and buy them random jewelry and flowers. When I love a girl I try to woo her like few other men these days try to woo.

And when I love a woman my love for that woman sticks through my breast plate and into my heart like a 12 inch pin that can't be taken out.

The myths are there for a reason. A lot of the reason women say things like you just said is that they have not met a guy like me to make them believe in romance again.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

And they won't meet that guy because they don't want to meet that guy. They're too attached to their militaristic feminist views.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

Bingo Mutatis, bingo.

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'Yeah buddy! *high-five*'

http://s13.postimage.org/m97yd1o3r/w3rtyu.jpg

I can see what the two of you have done here: You've called me a militant feminist. You've brought me to the level of the children's playground (or the boardroom) and called me a naughty word: you've put me into a stereotype in order to shut down my argument so that if I did try and debate your points I would only be 'proving' how much of a 'militant feminist' I am. Very clever. If this is how people argue on the internet then I'm tempted to wash my hands of the activity altogether.

Your exchange, where you high-five eachother for making stereotypical, egotistical, self-aggrandizing jingo, has captured the essence of machismo perfectly. Nothing more does need to be said. Indeed female posters from different walks of life have, over the past two weeks, rebuked the opinions displayed on this forum which seemed to stereotype women, but the message clearly has not gotten through.

Would you expand on our previous discussion? I asked in a post on the previous page.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Would you expand on our previous discussion? I asked in a post on the previous page.

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No. I don't think there is a worthy enough audience on here.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Would you expand on our previous discussion? I asked in a post on the previous page.

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She (or he, it's still undetermined) has better stuff to do atop the giant pedestal.

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

No. I don't think there is a worthy enough audience on here.

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Worthy? Ok. Just asking.

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

'Yeah buddy! *high-five*'

http://s13.postimage.org/m97yd1o3r/w3rtyu.jpg

I can see what the two of you have done here: You've called me a militant feminist. You've brought me to the level of the children's playground (or the boardroom) and called me a naughty word: you've put me into a stereotype in order to shut down my argument so that if I did try and debate your points I would only be 'proving' how much of a 'militant feminist' I am. Very clever. If this is how people argue on the internet then I'm tempted to wash my hands of the activity altogether.

Your exchange, where you high-five eachother for making stereotypical, egotistical, self-aggrandizing jingo, has captured the essence of machismo perfectly. Nothing more does need to be said. Indeed female posters from different walks of life have, over the past two weeks, rebuked the opinions displayed on this forum which seemed to stereotype women, but the message clearly has not gotten through.

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Your attitude here presents a kind of McCarthyism. You are getting all indignant and self-righteous because you disagree with Mutatis and I.

By the way - I wasn't even referring to you when I made that comment.

Calm down. Debate is not about paranoia and bitterness. You have insulted this entire forum.

This kind of attitude you have is the result of industrialization and consumerism. Rather than women taking care of the home they are expected to compete with men for jobs and if they do not do it they are made to feel impotent and lazy and like they are second class. The attitude which attempts to make women non-nurturers and instead only consumers is in reality a powerful process of DEFEMINIZATION.