I don't believe it. If he can't find a job with several science deggrees he's doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohmyscience
Printable View
I don't believe it. If he can't find a job with several science deggrees he's doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohmyscience
We are humanized by our weaknesses .
I think one of the biggest problems in the world today is the fact that nobody holds any one accountable for anything anymore. Whatever happens, people have to try and blame some outside force for it, or others excuse them, by saying well it is not really thier fault, it is because of their environment, or society, or this that and the other thing, [/QUOTE]Quote:
I am huge believer in and proponent of personal responsibility. I am really quite ruthless when it comes to my belief and advocacy of personal responsibility. It is one of the reasons why I am not often very compassionate or sympathetic to listen to others complain about their problems. Because I believe that more often then not the individual is personally responsible for the situation they find themselves in. Either because of past actions they took, or because of actions they refuse to take, because it is easier to just complain and wallow in self pity and have others pat you on the back and tell you it is not your fault.
I do really respect and appreciate strong-willed people ; poeple who assumes responsibility of their life and everything they do but I 've never had the same attitude towards other people .
I think they need help not blame.
[QUOTE]
I do not believe in protecting people from themselves. If someone does something stupid, they deserve, and should, suffer the consequences of that action, no matter how sever the consequences are, that is how they will learn not to do it again. People should not be babied or parented by the government. Laws should not be made that solely focus around protecting a person from themselves. (i.e. the seatbelt law). If a person sticks their hand in fire, and gets burned, they should not have the right to sue some company because the company did not warn them that fire was hot.
oops no comment!!
Quote:
I am sick and tired of people being compensated, and viewed upon as victims of some "evil" because they lack any resemblance of common sense. I am also tired of people thinking they are owed something from someone else, if they do something stupid. No one looks at themselves any more and says "hey maybe this happened to me, because I acted like an idiot."
I am also tired of listening to people bellyache about circumstances in their life, which they do have the power to change, but they simply do not wish to take the steps to do so, because it would be too hard, and they rather just boo woo, and play the role of the victim, because it is easier and because others have gotten in the habit of accepting this, and patting you on the back and telling you it is not your fault instead of saying "hey why don't you get off your arse and actually do something about it."
You have these options. It might be a struggle, you might have to make certain sacrifices, and it won't be an easy road, but it will get you out of the current situation which you are unhappy with.
Quote:
People are a victim only of themselves and the fact that they are not willing to look themselves in the eye, and say, just why am I in this situation, in what ways am I reasonable for these circumstances, and what options do I have to take to change it.
this is applied on mature people , who have self- awarness and they belieive in themselves ; I think what we really need is the belief in our power , in our ability to change . As a result I will be responsible .
How can u ask me to be responsible of what I have done when I consider my whole being a result of circumstances(familial,social ,political..).??
If a person thinks that everything that happens in their life is the fault of some outside force, they should not be validated for that feeling, others should not further enable and support those ideas. They should not have their hand held and be told it really is not their fault.Quote:
How can u ask me to be responsible of what I have done when I consider my whole being a result of circumstances(familial,social ,political..).??[/B]
They need to suffer the results of what happens to them, so they learn to take accountability of themselves. They need to be told to get over it, and grow up and take some responsibility for themselves.
They should not get a free pass because they want to play the act of the poor victim who does not have to be reasonable for anything that happens to them.
Nor should they be rewarded for such behavior and attitudes.
If people allow them to continue in this way, and no one exepcts them to acutally start taking accountablity for thier own lives, they will have no reason to change, and they will breed more ineffective members of society.
What I am saying is that we ashould ask ourselves why those people are irresponsible?Quote:
If a person thinks that everything that happens in their life is the fault of some outside force, they should not be validated for that feeling, others should not further enable and support those ideas. They should not have their hand held and be told it really is not their fault.
why are u very a responsible person? don't u think that u are risen by your family in a way that develop your sense of independence , strong will , you belief in your self ; I think they taught you that You MAKE your life , it does not make you .suffering does not help ; the belief in themselves is what really helps.Quote:
They need to suffer the results of what happens to them, so they learn to take accountability of themselves. They need to be told to get over it, and grow up and take some responsibility for themselves.
How can u Judge a person that he is playing that act of the poor victim : maybe he really believes so .Quote:
They should not get a free pass because they want to play the act of the poor victim who does not have to be reasonable for anything that happens to them.
no one says " to be rewarded "!!Quote:
Nor should they be rewarded for such behavior and attitudes.
I agree with u on the goal but not on the means ; for their sake they need to change their life and the way they think of lit but not in that tough way .Quote:
acutally start taking accountablity for thier own lives, they will have no reas
If people allow them to continue in this way, and no one exepcts them to on to change, and they will breed more ineffective members of society.
Ok let me just ask you this. Would you really want your pay check, that you go to work to earn to go to support someone who does not think they can be held accountable for anything that happens in thier life, and do not think they have to be responseble for themselves, so they spend all thier time drinking beer and watching TV, without making an effort to get a job, becasue they beleive that everything that is wrong in thier life is the fault of goverment, or society, or thier childhood sucked, so they don't think they should have to acutally make any effort. They just want to sit around and complian without feeling they have any accountablity to do anything about it.
You want your money to finically support that person? Becasue it is not thier fault, in your view that they don't want to activiely do anything for themselves. They have the right to be supported by others.
I agree, for one it makes me sick that our current justice system allows for someone to plead insanity. If your legally insane and hurt someone does it make you less dangerous that if your not legally insane and hurt someone? Should it make you any less accountable?
Yes I agree with that, even if someone is legally insane that does not change the fact of the wrongess of what they did, and they should still be punished for it, becasue them being unsane does not undo thier actions and the suffering of the vicitims and thier loved ones.
I partly beleive in persons taking responsibilities for all that happens. But this idea is more of a philosophical or logical argument than of any substance in point of fact.
On the contrary to this we can not totally ignore the fact that there are circumstances in which man becomes helpless and he becomes subdued or falls victims to what others do or to others' actions.
Of course when a man steals he will be accountable for all what happens and yet we can say that when a circumstance makes him accountable for his action like when he was a baby and did know little of what is good or bad and then it is not him and of course his parents who were more accountable for his theft. And his parents are the circumstance that compelled him to be a thief.
the bucks got to stop somewhere. even if its arbitrary, putting responsibility into the hands of the individual is practical and seems to work for most
It is true a person cannot control every circumstance that happens, but they can control how they respond and act to that circumstance.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
if you get your self into a situation you have not right to cry on others shoulders for pity. you got yourself in get yourself out.
exactly. whatever you are in some way in control to change something or make something else happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
completely true. its a wonder all murderers dont plead insanity so they dont have to pay for their crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
[QUOTE=Dark Muse;630875]Ok let me just ask you this. Would you really want your pay check, that you go to work to earn to go to support someone who does not think they can be held accountable for anything that happens in thier life, and do not think they have to be responseble for themselves, so they spend all thier time drinking beer and watching TV, without making an effort to get a job, becasue they beleive that everything that is wrong in thier life is the fault of goverment, or society, or thier childhood sucked, so they don't think they should have to acutally make any effort. They just want to sit around and complian without feeling they have any accountablity to do anything about it.
You want your money to finically support that person? Becasue it is not thier fault, in your view that they don't want to activiely do anything for themselves. They have the right to be supported by others.[/
you take the extremes as examples .why!!
I won't finincally support that person but I can support " INSTITUTIONS " that help these kind of people when they ask for help to change their life .
I won't say as u are saying " let them suffer to learn that they are responsible of their life"!
Give them a chance then judge !
so in that way they won't suffer anymore !!!Quote:
Yes I agree with that, even if someone is legally insane that does not change the fact of the wrongess of what they did, and they should still be punished for it, becasue them being unsane does not undo thier actions and the suffering of the vicitims and thier loved ones.
when they get revenge ( it is a revenge not punishment since the aim of punishement is reform) of an " insane person"!!!!!
It is a revengeful attitude that is applied in the animal kingdom .
The laws are put to make " human beings " more human not to contribute in the process of their dehumanization!
Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
Becasue the plain and simple truth is that some people do not want to actively do anything to change thier own life, they want everyone else to do it for them. They are unwilling to try and work and think they should get to live off the goverment. They think everyone owes them something and that they should not have to lift a hand.
Some people cannot be reformed. And if someone kills another person, I do not care what thier excuse is, they need to pay for it, end of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
And I do support revenge, and have no problem with the idea of revenge. Being insane should not be a free pass. They have done wrong there are consequences to those actions.
I can tell you, I do not think the victims family are going to think, oh well becasue he was insane, then he should not really be held accountable for what he did to our daughter, son, sister, father.
The guilty being insane does not make the vicitims any less dead or the family suffer any less.
This is an excellent debate, and Muse you are doing a great job of providing a lot of different examples to get your point across.
Muse, you make a solid argument that could be stated in three ways:
1) Everyone should be held accountable for murder, no matter what degree of "sensibility" they have.
2) People who have the "mental capacity" to better themselves should be held accountable and punished if necessary in order for the good of them, and all of society
3) In question form: Do you really want your money to go to provide for these self destructive leeches who do nothing to make the proper adjustments to support themselves. What kind of society does that promote?
First of all, you should not feel like anyone is giving you "the evil eye":yawnb:
Your arguments are well thought out, and very well communicated.
In response to the forum topic:
People do not see their situation in the same terms you see it from the outside looking in. So many variables result in people making irrational and antisocial decisions-- that can be destructive to themselves or to society. Some external factors (which you and everyone has named political, social, environment), some internal. The internal problems are the most complicated to understand from a bird's eye view.
You say "NO, I will not tolerate people and their inability to hold them selves accountable-- they will suffer--and they will learn--they must not be let off the hook--otherwise we are promoting their destructive patterns and jeopardizing the community assuming some will imitate them. If I had a choice, I would let them burn themselves so that they may learn--but I will not make their choices for them, and take on their responsibilities."
I think your right. I keep trying to think of an argument against you. But your stance makes a lot of sense. Keeping in mind that you remain sensitive to those incapable unfortunate souls' suffering. That is absolutely crucial. Realize that it is an ugly reality. You say that it would be a hard choice for them to break their pattern--to do something. OK. Then be sensitive enough to feel their pain. Why? Because, everyone's most trivial problems would be cycles of hell, if someone out there didn't touch them or if they couldn't observe a model. Everything in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. It holds true with your belief in the progress of the community as a whole. (I saw a bit of apathy between you and people who have problems they cannot solve (as stupid as they may seem)--that apathy is potentially dangerous, both for you and the community)
Remember, internal problems are complicated. You cannot weigh them. There are simply too many variables.
One last thing, concerning by what means people should be punished particularly for murder. For me the answer to this question is one of the many wonders of the world.
I learned something today that might relate to this and answer it indirectly.
The Roman Empire could have had an industrial revolution way back in 400 ce. They had the technology. Why didn't they have one? Because they relied on slaves to work their lands. Slaves seemed like an absolute necessity.
But what is our case now 200 years after the industrial revolution. We found a way around slavery. And in doing so-- not only did we become morally respectable-- but also a million times more efficient.
I thought a lot about this, kudos to those who read through it
First of all, yes, you have summed up my points perfectly. You truly understand where I am coming from. One of the trends I have noticed in this thread is that certain people seem to confuse what I am saying and perceive that I am simply passing a judgement against anyone who happens to be having a hardship and that I do not think any one should not be helped at all.
This is not true. I have respect for those who are making efforts and actively trying to do something, even if perhaps they run into bad luck, or other problems come up, I am not judging those that actually try to better themselves regardless of their level of success.
My arguments are aimed fully against those who do not make any attempts for themselves to do anything, and on top of that often wish to complain to everyone else, while they are choosing not to take any action whatsoever for themselves.
As for your thoughts about punishment, I would question your statement that we have trully become morally respectable. I do not think any so called "civilization" is ever truly that civilized.
yeah, I know what you mean. Great observation.
I was trying to demonstrate that maybe killing people for their heinous crimes is not always the best solution, that there are alternatives in a progressive society. Like prison systems.
But I would definitely scrutinize myself here. Perhaps retribution is necessary. Maybe execution is necessary as long as its not under the tag "retribution." I think in a very simple society. Execution to those who murder is the ONLY way. But maybe there is a more intelligent way to handle those who murder now-a-days. Maybe there isn't a difference. I need to let this one rest.
To the extent that I have been following this discussion, although I sympathize with Dark's sentiments, I think she is setting off *personal responsibility* as an artificial construct which breaks down rapidly when you look at socio-State systems as a whole. Have you read Plato's Republic
or Thomas Paine on liberty?Quote:
Argument
The argument of the Republic is the search after Justice, the nature of which is first hinted at by Cephalus, the just and blameless old man --then discussed on the basis of proverbial morality by Socrates and Polemarchus --then caricatured by Thrasymachus and partially explained by Socrates --reduced to an abstraction by Glaucon and Adeimantus, and having become invisible in the individual reappears at length in the ideal State which is constructed by Socrates. The first care of the rulers is to be education, of which an outline is drawn after the old Hellenic model, providing only for an improved religion and morality, and more simplicity in music and gymnastic, a manlier strain of poetry, and greater harmony of the individual and the State. We are thus led on to the conception of a higher State, in which "no man calls anything his own," and in which there is neither "marrying nor giving in marriage," and "kings are philosophers" and "philosophers are kings;" and there is another and higher education, intellectual as well as moral and religious, of science as well as of art, and not of youth only but of the whole of life. Such a State is hardly to be realized in this world and would quickly degenerate. To the perfect ideal succeeds the government of the soldier and the lover of honor, this again declining into democracy, and democracy into tyranny, in an imaginary but regular order having not much resemblance to the actual facts.
Or looked at the new emergence of the authoritarianism outside of the traditional West, or read influential utilitarians, like John Stuart Mill?
I am not as well versed in creating philosophical constructs as jgweed or Richard might be, but I think there are a number of issues here being left out of the picture, including corporation, which I mentioned earlier during the "lawsuits over junkfood" sidebar.
To distinguish my unease somewhat further, since I seem inclined towards a civics lesson,:yawnb:, there is a difference, to my mind, between a negative behavior, like killing, and obligation, whether that obligation is to self, or one's relations to others, or the state.
And as to murder, people normally do not refrain from murder due to good behavior, but rather, self-interest--and when that self-interest conveniently ties in to motive, then things get interesting, to enjoy a pun. In other words, I do not harm because I do not want to be harmed. The law is the furtherest thing from my mind, in terms of keeping myself in line.
For me not wanting to go to jail is a large reason why I don't harm other people, becasue I do have an aggressive personality and I realy don't like people and they irritate me quite easaily.
While restraining myself from going into detail, I doubt you have much up on me there Dark; anger is a common emotion in cripworld, but assaulting or injuring people may not come as easily as you imagine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Still, I would encourage you to explore some social and political theory, since you are a fair literary critic in some quarters.:)
You never know what a person will do, until their pushed into a corner.
A question that always plagues my mind is that is it ok to kill someone for the right reasons? such as shooting an evil dictator for the common interests of the country.
or...
Think of this scenario, 'Your in a camp in africa, their are rebels raiding the village killing everyone in sight. Your and a few others find a cellar to hide, you can see through the floorboards above. A lady with a baby is next to you, the baby starts crying. This jeopardises the lives of 8 other individuals in the cellar whom could make it out alive.'
Would you take the baby from the mother and take its life to save everyone. Or leave the baby to cry and get caught, but die honorably.
And Jozanny... do you think the legal system fairs in your favour?
When it comes right down to tooth and nail, and a question of absolute suvivial. A matter of life and death, as long as it was someone I did not personally care about it, I would sacrifice anyone to save myself. If it was a friend or loved one, then whatever the risk, I would stand behind them.
Regarding that situation with the baby crying and the dictator:
I believe it is permissible to kill someone if you have reason to believe they are oppressing people to a certain degree. I believe it is a last option though. Even when you do kill them it wasn't necessarily the right thing to do. It would be a terrible deed, with no real justification. But I'd rather deal with that guilt than doing nothing in some scenarios.
Killing a baby because it is crying is foolishness. Think about this, especially you Dark Muse. You said everyone's lives are just as important as animals. Let's assume that that is true. Won't that also mean that other PEOPLES lives are just as important as your own? Why not kill yourself in that situation. What is life to you? You live-- and you die, it really shouldn't matter what order people die in. As a matter of fact nothing should really matter.
I would this is a wrong way of thinking. Let the baby live, and face your end if need be. Shouldn't we be living to ultimately prepare us for death? I would fight back-- perhaps even use myself as a diversion to give those people enough time to find a better hiding place (my self sacrifice would perhaps be witnessed by one of them and cause a real chain reaction of compassion) You know?
Well one of the very misanthropic things about me, is that I do not feel any empathy or compassion for the lives of strangers. What happens to people that I do not personally know or care about means nothing to me.
If someone else's existence does come to interfere with me, or with someone I care about, then I will do what I feel needs to be done to eliminate the problem.
All my empathy and sympathy goes towards animals. I do not much care for other human beings if they are not within the small circle of people that personally mean something to me.
I am not going to sacrifice myself for someone else if I do not have a personal connection with that person. Because thier life has no value to me and I am a survivalist and fighter by nature.
I find your stance not only shocking, but muddled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
You seem quite happy to announce your lack of compassion and empathy for mankind, to the extent that you would, you say, have no qualms about killing for your own survival, even if it was an innocent baby. Apart from a worrying lack of feeling for other humans, which I think is one of the factors tending towards the definition of a psychopath, you also seem quite blase in your assertion that the insane should be executed. This just doesn't make any sense at all. If someone is insane, they are not in their right mind, and therefore did not commit the act they did knowingly. Their "punishment", would be to commit them to an asylum. You seem to take an unswerving line against killing when others do it, but as you are a "misanthrope" with little feeling for your fellow members of humanity, it's ok for you to assert your willingness to commit such acts.
I know this discussion is academic, and in real circumstances things may be very different, who knows what we are capable of, but I would not like to think that I was so unfeeling.
That is because I differentiate between different types of killing, or different reasons and motives for it.
In the example of the baby, the scenario given indicated the baby would pose a direct threat to my survival.
To me that would be different then if someone just went up and killed a baby because they were bored, or had a bad day, or just because they felt like it.
I do not approve of murder. But as I have mentioned in the revenge thread, I do not view all killing as murder. For me murder happens when an innocent person is killed without any just cause.
To kill another person because their actions are putting your own life in danger I consider just cause.
As to the question about people are insane. The fact that they did not know what they were doing, does not make the person they killed any less dead, and they should not be given a softer sentence for what they have done. Nothing changes their actions and the result of those actions.
As to my being a psychopath, while I do not claim to be completely sane. The difference between me and a psychopath, is that I do actually know the difference between right and wrong, though it is true I have my own code of morals and ethics that does not always agree with societies code. But I would not actually kill another person unless I felt it absolutely necessary to do so.
And the fact that I am actually capable of feeling and caring about other people, though I am not sympathetic to the human race generally. I am actually quite compassionate and caring and loyal to my friends and loved ones.
But it is true, anyone outside of my circle, does not truly concern me.
Quote:
DarkMuse:::
That is because I differentiate between different types of killing, or different reasons and motives for it.
In the example of the baby, the scenario given indicated the baby would pose a direct threat to my survival.
To me that would be different then if someone just went up and killed a baby because they were bored, or had a bad day, or just because they felt like it.
I do not approve of murder. But as I have mentioned in the revenge thread, I do not view all killing as murder. For me murder happens when an innocent person is killed without any just cause.
To kill another person because their actions are putting your own life in danger I consider just cause.
As to the question about people are insane. The fact that they did not know what they were doing, does not make the person they killed any less dead, and they should not be given a softer sentence for what they have done. Nothing changes their actions and the result of those actions.
As to my being a psychopath, while I do not claim to be completely sane. The difference between me and a psychopath, is that I do actually know the difference between right and wrong, though it is true I have my own code of morals and ethics that does not always agree with societies code. But I would not actually kill another person unless I felt it absolutely necessary to do so.
And the fact that I am actually capable of feeling and caring about other people, though I am not sympathetic to the human race generally. I am actually quite compassionate and caring and loyal to my friends and loved ones.
But it is true, anyone outside of my circle, does not truly concern me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wessexgirl
I think the feelings expressed by Darkmuse are based on personal 'choice'. Having no feelings for others (not in one's circle) may also mean that the apathetic person also does NOT want any reciprocal feeling from others. Commonly this is not considered to be a commendable societal or human trait but there are exceptions. Maybe Darkmuse has its own reasons.
As far as killing is concerned it is probable in case of self-defense or in the event of a hangman executing a convict on court's order. Many things and actions which are socially and legally valid are invalid when done in personal capacity. even committing suicide is a crime!
Yes I can verify that is quite true. I do not see why anyone outside of my circle should have any care for me, nor am I seeking it. I rather do find it uncomftrable when people I do not know attempt to engage me in some friendly way, becasue such is not what I seek.Quote:
Originally Posted by mazHur
When I am minding my own bussiness and someone I do not know attempts to try and have a conversation with me just to be "nice" and social. I really don't like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I take your point on keeping to oneself but is not always for reasons of being ''nice and social''. Maybe someone likes you or likes something about you and wants to befriend?
I too don't like people to bother me when am out walking or doing something. But, this is not because I dislike them --it's because i don't like others disturbing and distracting me,,,,but again such a feeling sometimes grows stronger with age, especially after 50. I used to feel differently when younger,,,and wouldn't mind 'others' particularly girls getting closer to me!:)
Anyway, that's more like a personality trait and there shouldnt be any problem if you felt that way. However, a little courtesy added would justify societal needs, if you may so wish.:)
I do not really feel much of an inclination to meet new people, and I do not like socializing with others. I have my select few friends and I am content and happy with that. When people try and talk to me, I just want them to go away and I feel like it is a kind of drag having to respond to them.
I am not always just out and out rude, I do express some semblance of basic courtesy when the mood strikes me to do so. But all in all I really do not care what society thinks of me.
I am pretty much apathetic to the opinions that other people may have of me.
And yet, you are here in this forum, expressing your opinions to complete strangers. I think many people in the real world have backwards priorities. There are so many people who don't take life delicately and sincerely. If you had confidence that everyone handled life RESPONSIBLY maybe you would think different about strangers.
While I disdain socializing, I still enjoy intellectual stimuli, as well as a never ending enjoyment for disagreeing with other people and auguring.
Being online I do not have to truly deal with other people. It is just an exchange of thoughts and ideas, and I can choose to only talk about things which are of interest to me, while ignoring things of which I have no interest.
And I can bypass any unnecessary "chit-chat" I have never been one to engage in "normal" or "mundane" conversations. I do not like talking about my day, or how I am feeling, or pretending I am interested in such things in other people, and such is what happens when you try and talk to people in public.
Online you can just focus in on what you do want to talk about, and you don't really have to get to know anything about anyone or interact with them beyond exchanging thoughts.
Indeed there are a lot of insincere things that may go on in many social interchanges. I respect the fact that you like to live sincerely, everything you do you mean. Its great to live out what you believe in. Everyman Dies, but not everyone truly lives~Braveheart
But there is a certain void in human cognition. One has to respect that void. The void can be defined as Man's natural tolerance of error regarding abstract thoughts such as the conjuration of one's own "moral code."
Basically, I'm trying to say that its good to continually second guess your fundamental beliefs because of the limitations of the human mind. So how can you both continually second guess yourself and truly live at the same time?
For me the answer is by continually challenging the mind and the memory. Exercising its focus as well as improving its efficiency. Therefore the margin of error, when you fight for what you believe in with tooth and nail, is as small as possible. This to me is personal responsibility.
Dark Muse,
Have you ever read this book?
I have a feeling you might like it. It becomes a tad tedious in repetition of theme, but overall it's very original in voice and somewhat original, for its time, in theme.
It sounds quite interesting, I will add it to my list