The Winter's Tale - Act I

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting?

---

I'm not sure exactly how long Polixenes has been visiting, but it seems like the first scene with the lords justifies his visit. I didn't see anything wrong with the visit in itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

The handclasps links the two events.

---

Wait, which two events get linked?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Of course, but had he not acted rationally instead of rashly, there would be no basis for this play. This beginning reminds me of the Thomas Hardy novel "The Mayor of Casterbridge"

---

That's a good parallel. In both cases, rashness is the character's inherent flaw. Circumstances conspire to give them the opportunity to act on their shortcoming, but they don't create the inherent flaw that the characters have. The only difference between between the two protagonists is that Henchard's rashness is more of a permanent trait and Leontes's is more like temporary madness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Why Leontes is rash is the key to the play.

---

Well, yes and no. Discovering what makes him susceptible to jealousy seems important, but pinpointing the exact moment when he becomes jealous or what actions make him jealous are less important. When isn't important because Leontes becomes noticeably envious 150 lines into the play. It hardly seems worth it to pour over the text to pick which individual line is the turning point. I suppose one could argue over whether it starts before or after the beginning play, but there isn't anything to make us conclude one way or the other. Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

Quote:

---

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

---

Leontes, himself, is to blame. This contrasts with Shakespeare's other jealous protagonist Othello, who is forced into jealousy by circumstances. In that play, the reader is curious to know what actions caused his downfall--after all there is a plot to this effect. The jealousy in The Winters Tale, however, lacks any rational basis. If we're to look for a cause, then, we have to inspect Leontes character more than the external actions which are irrelevant to Leontes.

The most salient characteristic of Leontes is his weakness, and this makes him very susceptible to jealousy. I already talked a little about his overly passive method of argument, but other details indicate the weakness of his character. He mentions his his heart having tremors, and the speech I quoted above shows his inability to control his own mind. This would make him susceptible to any slight impression that comes his way. Weakness, then, is probably his largest shortcoming, but there are possibly others. One could argue that his paranoid and cynical outlook is a result of his jealousy, but it might also be a preexisting condition of Leontes's mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

I completed my full read last night and now I just need to read Act I again, while taking notes. I may post my thoughts on this tonight.

---

Oh, this better be good Virgil. You keep building the anticipation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

I suppose it's because Hermione argues more convincingly than her husband. Leontes merely asks him stay, but doesn't addresses any of the reasons Polixenes has for leaving. Hermione, however, actively refutes Polixenes main excuse for leaving. The Bohemian king fears that enemies will overwhelm his state while he's away, but Hermione soothes that fear with news she's heard.

Another cause for Hermione's success is that she's a much stronger character--as are most of the women in this play--than her husband. She treats this conversation like a battle and chides her husband for being too passive: "You, sir, charge him too coldly." She then threatens him (albeit playfully) with imprisonment if he tries to leave. Hermione convinces because she's both more tactical and stronger than her husband in this situation.

---

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bouquin

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

---

i think so. It seems that Leon is jealous of Hermione herself because of her talents more than her relationship with Pil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

Well, yes and no. Discovering what makes him susceptible to jealousy seems important, but pinpointing the exact moment when he becomes jealous or what actions make him jealous are less important. When isn't important because Leontes becomes noticeably envious 150 lines into the play. It hardly seems worth it to pour over the text to pick which individual line is the turning point. I suppose one could argue over whether it starts before or after the beginning play, but there isn't anything to make us conclude one way or the other. Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

---

I did say "why" not "when." Don't you know your interrogative pronouns? ;)

Quote:

---

Oh, this better be good Virgil. You keep building the anticipation.

---

I hope it will be good. Tonight I promise. I had something yesterday happen which threw me out of kilter all day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

I did say "why" not "when." Don't you know your interrogative pronouns? ;)

---

I'm sure I'm quite horrible with pronouns (honestly, who isn't?), but I think the problem wasn't with pronouns. It was actually with paragraphs. I crudely sutured two separate ideas together in one clump of text rather than give them their own paragraphs. Specifically, I tried to answer both "when" and "why," and it got confusing. I answered the "when" first, but later I tackled "why" as well. Here's the part where I talk about why Leontes is jealous, and how important it is to the play:

Quote:

---

what actions make him jealous are less important

---

Quote:

---

Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

---

I go on to say, though, that we should look for Leontes motives within his own character. Since the provocation is so minute, it really can't be the source of his jealousy. Really, it has to come from Leontes himself. Therefore, rather than pour over the first 150 lines trying to find what makes Leontes jealous, we should ask ourselves what part of Leontes is prone to jealousy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

I hope it will be good. Tonight I promise. I had something yesterday happen which threw me out of kilter all day.

---

That's good. Are you going to write something on Leontes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bouquin

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sofia82

i think so. It seems that Leon is jealous of Hermione herself because of her talents more than her relationship with Pil.

---

That may be a stretch. The only line that directly refers to that is when Leontes points out the obvious and says that he would not have been able to make him stay. Unless you perceive bitterness in his tone, I don't see any jealousy there. At least, there isn't anything in the words themselves that would make me suspicious. Can you think of any other lines that might make Leontes seem jealous of Hermione's skilled diplomacy?

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

See you on Monday; I will drop in occasionally since I have been reading the play. I had some good ideas also but no time to post them.
Maybe on Monday. Have a nice weekend, Bye~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

See you on Monday; I will drop in occasionally since I have been reading the play. I had some good ideas also but no time to post them.
Maybe on Monday. Have a nice weekend, Bye~

---

Umm Janine, Im fairly certain that we will still be reading the winters tale in august so we wont have go too far by monday ..:D
well hope your computers feeling better soon, being computerless is a horrible fate..:nod:

I'm not sure how I catch up. I cannot respond to all points made. Let me get to what I think is critical.

I think it of the utmost importance to understanding this play in answering the question of why Leontes turns on his wife and friends. This is the act from which all other acts of the play stem, the first cause, if you will. I find Act I, Scene 2 an powerful and intense scene. As good as anything in Shakespeare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

I thought Leonetes' jealousy was very rash and unproven and cruel. He did not try the man in question, his supposed friend but went ahead with plans to poison him immediately. I don't know how much more rash one could be. In his rashness he wounds many lives.

---

Is it just jealously? It is possible to read it thus. Unfortunately it goes beyond the bounds of common jealousy. Perhaps he interprets Hermione's persuasion as a indication of a relationship between Polixenes and Hermione, but look at Leontes in his conversation with Camillo:

Quote:

---

CAMILLO
He would not stay at your petitions: made
His business more material.

LEONTES
Didst perceive it?

Aside

They're here with me already, whispering, rounding
'Sicilia is a so-forth:' 'tis far gone,
When I shall gust it last. How came't, Camillo,
That he did stay?
256-62

---

"Whispering"?

And when he asks Camillo directly about his wife:

Quote:

---

LEONTES
Ay, but why?

CAMILLO
To satisfy your highness and the entreaties
Of our most gracious mistress.

LEONTES
Satisfy!
The entreaties of your mistress! satisfy!
Let that suffice. I have trusted thee, Camillo,
With all the nearest things to my heart, as well
My chamber-councils, wherein, priest-like, thou
Hast cleansed my bosom, I from thee departed
Thy penitent reform'd: but we have been
Deceived in thy integrity, deceived
In that which seems so.
276-87

---

Decived? But based on what does he make this assertion? "IN that which seems so" Leontes is seeing something that is beyond the surface. And of couse Camillo doesn't see it and asserts that. But here's Leontes:

Quote:

---

LEONTES
Is whispering nothing?
Is leaning cheek to cheek? is meeting noses?
Kissing with inside lip? stopping the career
Of laughing with a sigh?--a note infallible
Of breaking honesty--horsing foot on foot?
Skulking in corners? wishing clocks more swift?
Hours, minutes? noon, midnight? and all eyes
Blind with the pin and web but theirs, theirs only,
That would unseen be wicked? is this nothing?
Why, then the world and all that's in't is nothing;
The covering sky is nothing; Bohemia nothing;
My wife is nothing; nor nothing have these nothings,
If this be nothing.
334-46

---

Again whisperings, he's hearing things. Then "cheek to cheek" is quite possible something he's seen. Faces accidently coming together. Then "meeting of noses"? Huh? Still possible, but "kissing with the inside lip"? Wait a second, that's something that is either true or false. And then

Quote:

---

stopping the career
Of laughing with a sigh?--a note infallible
Of breaking honesty--horsing foot on foot?

---

He's really seeing a lot of things here. And then,

Quote:

---

Skulking in corners? wishing clocks more swift?
Hours, minutes? noon, midnight? and all eyes
Blind with the pin and web but theirs, theirs only,

---

Wow, now he's reading their minds, "wishing the clocks ore swift." This is hulluciantion. The man is sick, mentally ill. And Camillo even responds as such:

Quote:

---

CAMILLO
Good my lord, be cured
Of this diseased opinion, and betimes;
For 'tis most dangerous.
347-49

---

More than the opinion is diseased. The King is paranoid. Read over this scene again and notice two operative words that keep coming up: "fear" and "disease". This is not the same jealousy of Othello. This is a mental illness I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sofia82

It seems to me as a kind of madness, without any investigation and questioning deciding on poisoning a King is not rational at all. About Camillo's accepting Leonetes plot and then revealing the plot to Polixenes, here is the justification of his act:

---

Yes I agree. It is not rational, but I think it's more than a jumbled mind as in Othello. Here it is a diseased mind. I think such a distinction can be made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kasie

What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?

---

I think Camillo's behavior is quite natural and rational. He sees a sick King who orders him to poison another. I guess for a Renaissance courtier he may be more noble than the average since he does not carry out the task. But he pulls together a plan to escape with Polixenes and saves himself as well. By failing to carry out the task, he will no doubt be killed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I think one question we have to answer is whether or not Leontes paranoid jealousy is in existence before Hermione convinces Polixenes to remain. That's what seems to set Leontes off.

---

well, that is a good question, and we don't quite see it at the very beginning of the scene. He wishes Poli to stay and actually pushes the Queen to persuade his friend. It does seem odd. But the hullucinations Leontes mentions later are things could only have occured earlier than this scene. So I would have to think that at the beginning of the scene Leontes is just being politically savy.

Ah, I see this is the chosen one. :)

Boy, I know we are only on Act I, but the conversation has really started. I will have to dig out my Complete Works and get started then, don't ya think? :)

I read over the comments, but I will have to read this play again before I can comment on anything. So I think I should get started then before I get too far behind. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyWentworth

Ah, I see this is the chosen one. :)

Boy, I know we are only on Act I, but the conversation has really started. I will have to dig out my Complete Works and get started then, don't ya think? :)

I read over the comments, but I will have to read this play again before I can comment on anything. So I think I should get started then before I get too far behind. :)

---

It would be nice if you could join us. :) You're not far behind. You can read the first act in a half hour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

---

I was wondering where you disappeared to, Janine. Hopefully you can solve the computer problem soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

I think it of the utmost importance to understanding this play in answering the question of why Leontes turns on his wife and friends. This is the act from which all other acts of the play stem, the first cuase, if you will.

---

That's definitely true. Leontes's jealousy is the germ of the conflict, and the rest of the plot grows out from it. What do you think his envy says about the play, though? If we agree that it's important, then we have to tell how it's important. It certainly sets things in motion, but what else. Does it effect the themes of the play? Perhaps it changes how we think of the other characters?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Perhaps he interprets Hermione's persuasion as a indication of a relationship between Polixenes and Hermione

---

I think so. The quotes you posted seem to show that. Janine and I posted some other parts of the conversation that prompt his jealousy, too. Janine pointed out that the tone Hermione uses with Polixenes is much warmer than that which she regards her husband. The Leontes's first aside shows that he's bothered by this. Also, I posted something about the uncomfortable association Leontes keeps making. He mentions the handclasp as a symbol of matrimony, and then Hermione clasps hands with Polixenes. This might prompt his jealousy, too. When we look at all of this combined it's easy to see how Leontes's mind could consider infedelity. Leontes, however, goes beyond that. His imagination turns it into a certainty. He bemoans this (in the quote I keep posting), but he's powerless to stop it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

More than the opinion is diseased. The King is paranoid. Read over this scene again and notice two operative words that keep coming up: "fear" and "disease". This is not the same jealousy of Othello. This is a mental illness I think.

---

It's clear that he's acting irrationally, but haven't we all done this? We sometimes get an idea, and then start reinterpreting everything around us with that idea. Sometimes this can get out of hand, too. Leontes is obviously an extreme example, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily deranged. "All too human" may be a better description.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

I was wondering where you disappeared to, Janine. Hopefully you can solve the computer problem soon.

---

Yes, she wanted me to tell you. But she beat me to it. She may be out of a computer for a while.

Quote:

---

That's definitely true. Leontes's jealousy is the germ of the conflict, and the rest of the plot grows out from it. What do you think his envy says about the play, though? If we agree that it's important, then we have to tell how it's important. It certainly sets things in motion, but what else. Does it effect the themes of the play? Perhaps it changes how we think of the other characters?

---

Absolutely we need to put it in the context of the entire play. Why not wait until we reach some conclusions on the other Acts?

Quote:

---

It's clear that he's acting irrationally, but haven't we all done this? We sometimes get an idea, and then start reinterpreting everything around us with that idea. Sometimes this can get out of hand, too. Leontes is obviously an extreme example, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily deranged. "All too human" may be a better description.

---

Oh? Ploting to kill your friend and throwing your wife in jail all on the basis of one incident? I think we're going to disagree on this Quark. Why does Shakespeare use the word "disease" several times throughout the act?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Yes, she wanted me to tell you. But she beat me to it. She may be out of a computer for a while.

---

Do you know if she's going to be back Monday. She mentioned that, but I didn't know if that meant she was getting a new computer then or just going back to the library then. I'm wondering whether she's going to be back for the next Chekhov story. Any guess?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Absolutely we need to put it in the context of the entire play. Why not wait until we reach some conclusions on the other Acts?

---

That's probably best, but we should keep in mind how Leontes's jealousy relates to the rest of the story as we continue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Oh? Ploting to kill your friend and throwing your wife in jail all on the basis of one incident? I think we're going to disagree on this Quark. Why does Shakespeare use the word "disease" several times throughout the act?

---

I don't think the number of incidents makes any difference. One incident is enough to intoduce the idea into Leontes head, and then his weak mind gives way to his imagination and mood. One step leads naturally to the other. It's regretable, but not insane. He uses the word diseased because his mind has been taken over by jealousy and he doesn't believe he can overcome it. A disease is similar. I think it makes much more sense to consider him weakminded than actually insane. It's hard to imagine that he snaps into insanity and out of it so quickly. That seems more like the behavoir of someone swept away by the thoughts of the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

It would be nice if you could join us. :) You're not far behind. You can read the first act in a half hour.

---

Yes, I can read a play fairly quickly. I just don't anticipate doing it for a couple of days yet. It is so hot here. Honestly, when it is this hot and humid out, I find it very hard to concentrate on anything. I don't plan on reading it until at least Sunday. It will be cooler outside then. :) So I probably won't be making any comments until sometime around then. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

See you on Monday; I will drop in occasionally since I have been reading the play. I had some good ideas also but no time to post them.
Maybe on Monday. Have a nice weekend, Bye~

---

Oh, Janine! Sorry to hear that. Hope your computer will be fixed as soon as possible. Waiting for your return.:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

and remember, Polixenes has a queen in his own land. Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting?

---

At the opening of Scene II, Pol says:

Nine changes of the watery star hath been
The shepherd's note since we have left our throne
Without a burthen:

So it has been 9 months since his arrival (yes, it is an interesting choice of period on Shakespeare's part). I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

(As a side note, this is something I find interesting in 18th/19th century books as well. They go to visit their friends/relatives and stay for months!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

Leontes, himself, is to blame. This contrasts with Shakespeare's other jealous protagonist Othello, who is forced into jealousy by circumstances.

---

I agree with this. Othello listens to Iago and falls into a jealous rage while Leon fails to listen to Camillo when he is in a jealous rage. The differents between Iago and Camillo is very essential, I believe, it is this difference that changes the flow of events in both plays.

Hence, in my opinion, it is Camillo's reaction to it ,as well as Leon's jealousy, that is crucial to the development of the play. If he went along with Leon's plans, I don't think they would a play at all (not in this sense at least).

Quote:

---

Janine pointed out that the tone Hermione uses with Polixenes is much warmer than that which she regards her husband. The Leontes's first aside shows that he's bothered by this. Also, I posted something about the uncomfortable association Leontes keeps making. He mentions the handclasp as a symbol of matrimony, and then Hermione clasps hands with Polixenes. This might prompt his jealousy, too.

---

I agree with this. Ironically immediately after Leon uses handclasp as a symbol of agreement on marriage, Hermione holds hands with Pol, calling him a friend... which sets Leon's mind working.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

"Whispering"?

---

I don't think Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.

Jealousy is a funny business... If one is suspicious, they will see many "signs" and read between the lines in the way that it suits their "theory".

Quote:

---

Decived? But based on what does he make this assertion?

---

Leon thinks he has been deceived by Camillo's intergrity because he thinks Camillo is using the word "satisfy" with double meaning and is upset that Camillo can make fun of the situation.

Quote:

---

Again whisperings, he's hearing things. Then "cheek to cheek" is quite possible something he's seen. Faces accidently coming together. Then "meeting of noses"? Huh? Still possible, but "kissing with the inside lip"? Wait a second, that's something that is either true or false. And then...

---

Here, I think Leon is suggesting all the things that might happen when two people have affair, not because he has actually seen these things or knows them for sure. Now that it is certain in his mind that they are having an affair, he simply fills in the gaps himself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

It's clear that he's acting irrationally, but haven't we all done this? We sometimes get an idea, and then start reinterpreting everything around us with that idea. Sometimes this can get out of hand, too. Leontes is obviously an extreme example, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily deranged. "All too human" may be a better description.

---

I think I also agree with Quark in that Leon is not mentally deranged or ill but is simply prone to jealousy and what follows it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scheherazade

At the opening of Scene II, Pol says:

Nine changes of the watery star hath been
The shepherd's note since we have left our throne
Without a burthen:

So it has been 9 months since his arrival (yes, it is an interesting choice of period on Shakespeare's part). I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

---

It is an unusual way to describe the lunar cycle. Seems like Shakespeare was intentionally striving for a water image. I hadn't noticed on my first reading, but does water figure prominantly in the play? Or is it the quality of non-solidity that Shakespeare is emphasing?

Quote:

---

(As a side note, this is something I find interesting in 18th/19th century books as well. They go to visit their friends/relatives and stay for months!)

---

Thank God that tradition has ended. :lol: I can't tolerate house guests beyond few days or even a day.

Quote:

---

I agree with this. Othello listens to Iago and falls into a jealous rage while Leon fails to listen to Camillo when he is in a jealous rage. The differents between Iago and Camillo is very essential, I believe, it is this difference that changes the flow of events in both plays.

---

Yes, I'm agreeing with it too. There is a difference between Othello's jealousy and Leontes. Leontes is self derived, which seems to me the product of a sick mind.

Quote:

---

I don't Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.

Jealousy is a funny business... If one is suspicious, they will see many "signs" and read between the lines in the way that it suits their "theory".

Leon thinks he has been deceived by Camillo's intergrity because he thinks Camillo is using the word "satisfy" with double meaning and is upset that Camillo can make fun of the situation.Here, I think Leon is suggesting all the things that might happen when two people have affair, not because he has actually seen these things or knows them for sure. Now that it is certain in his mind that they are having an affair, he simply fills in the gaps himself.I think I also agree with Quark in that Leon is not mentally deranged or ill but is simply prone to jealousy and what follows it.

---

Well, yes, and one has to question whether Leontes metal state is normal. A mature person doesn't see sign after sign and fill in gaps with thoughts. A sane person doesn't jump to the conclusion of having his friend and wife killed after one little incident. Remmber it is just once that his wife has persuaded Poli. Just once, and Leontes is building all sorts of rash thoughts upon it. I mentioned elsewhere that a long time ago my mother experienced paranoia (along side with depression). This is exactly what she did, fill in gaps of signs with whisperings she thought she heard, images she thought she saw, collusions and conspiracies she felt existed; of course my mother's had nothing to do with jealousy. I don't know if anyone here has encountered a mentally ill person who suffers so, but for the most part they seem normal. Until one starts talking in details about things that they have on their minds. I don't think Shakespeare understood fully the nature of mental illness and especially paranoia, but certainly he must have had around him people who suffered. And there was no medications to help in those days, so I bet it was around daily. All I can say is read through this act again and highlight how many times the word "fear" and "disease" comes up. If I have time later, I'll number it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Thank God that tradition has ended. :lol: I can't tolerate house guests beyond few days or even a day.

---

I think it's because of this that the tradition chnaged. Stay for some months, make the host jealous or suspicious, which caused murders ... they stopped satying for long so they saved their own lives, and the whole member of the family they visit :D (just joking). I'll be back in a few minutes Hope so!

A question, does any one know about Derrida's deconstructive reading of The Winter's Tale?
Or this one, Shakespeare and Hospitality: Opening The Winter's Tale by David Ruite?

Shakespeare, as usual, starts the first scene as the introduction to what is the play about and what is going to happen in it. From the beginning he refers to the difference between Sicilia and Bohemia which will be represented through the play; Sicilia as the part of tragic, gloomy aspect of the play, and Bohemia as the comedy aspect.
In this first scene we are introduced to unalterable friendship of these two kings. When something emphasized so much we should wait that the opposite happens:

Quote:

---

CAMILLO Sicilia cannot show himself over-kind to
Bohemia. They were trained together in their
childhoods; and there rooted betwixt them then such
an affection, which cannot choose but branch now.
Since their more mature dignities and royal necessities
made separation of their society, their encounters,
though not personal, have been royally attorneyed with
interchange of gifts, letters, loving embassies; that they
have seemed to be together, though absent, shook
hands, as over a vast, and embraced, as it were, from
the ends of opposed winds. The heavens continue
their loves!

---

Or

Quote:

---

ARCHIDAMUS I think there is not in the world either
malice or matter to alter it.

---

From the beginning it is obvious the conflict is between these two kings. Ok! It's so obvious, and need no mention ;)

Reading the first part of scene ii, (the dialogue between Leo. and Pol) Leo. answers Pol, who talks in long sentences, in an unkind or cold manner and in short. Look at his speeches

Quote:

---

LEONTES Stay your thanks a while;
And pay them when you part.

LEONTES We are tougher, brother,
Than you can put us to’t.

LEONTES One seven-night longer.

LEONTES We’ll part the time between’s then; and
in that
I’ll no gainsaying.

---

And in the end:

Quote:

---

LEONTES Tongue-tied, our Queen?
Speak you.

---

This shows that Leon is eager he stays or not? Who is persuaded by these cold requests and sometimes I think bitter requests to stay for even a day! Not, me! This occurred to me that he is playing or making a trap maybe to prove his suspicion is true and prove the affair between his queen and Pol. He has something in his mind before the queen's persuasion and Pol's acceptance. And Leon says something but means another thing, for example:

LEONTES Stay your thanks a while;
And pay them when you part.

Maybe, saying wait and see the end then decide how to thank me! A kind of evil thinking but not representing that. Sorry but I look at this like a jealous one as Leon is.

I and bouquin agreed Leon is jealous of her queen in policy and her being active and a kind of strong character, I find more hints about this in the next scenes. In scene ii, Hermione tries to teach him how to ask Pol to stay and it is a kind of educating him in front of his friend.

Quote:

---

HERMIONE I had thought, sir, to have held my
peace until
You have drawn oaths from him not to stay. You, sir,
Charge him too coldly. Tell him, you are sure
All in Bohemia’s well; this satisfaction
The by-gone day proclaim’d: say this to him,
He’s beat from his best ward.

---

Can it be interpreted that she was sure Leon is not capable of persuading Pol. Even she doesn't say it to Pol but telling Leon what and how to say it.

Quote:

---

Leontes,
I love thee not a jar o’ the clock behind
What lady-she her lord.

---

And here, she is saying I love thee, Leon. What is the necessity of this line in the middle of learning him how to ask Pol to stay? And then immediately talking to Pol. I cannot understand this! She is talking to leon but she means Pol? Imagine a person thinking of her wife's infidelity what thinks of this? Then suddenly Leon disappears and is ignored. It seems as if he is not present in this scene, being ignored. Another reason for his jealousy. Even there's been no affair between Her and Pol this can make a husband be angry: a king, a husband being ignored because of his friend.

Look at this (I hope I won't interpret so pessimistically, but anyway)

Quote:

---

HERMIONE Was not my lord
The verier wag o’ the two?

---

And Pol (it seems to me if I made mistake correct it) says they were equal, denying that he's superior to him in cleverness or being amusing (I'm not sure about the meaning of this). Leon hearing all this, another reason for such a diseased mind to be suspicious.

Quote:

---

LEONTES Is he won yet?

---

And he tries to make them see him … or be sure to do his plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

---

I'm not entirely sure, either. I would think that it was pretty normal--given, as you point out, the travel time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

It is an unusual way to describe the lunar cycle. Seems like Shakespeare was intentionally striving for a water image. I hadn't noticed on my first reading, but does water figure prominantly in the play? Or is it the quality of non-solidity that Shakespeare is emphasing?

---

I hadn't noticed that before. Maybe he is developing a theme here. We'll have to consider that as we move into the other sections.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, yes, and one has to question whether Leontes metal state is normal.

---

I don't mean to belabor the point too much, and I definitely don't want to get into a argument over what constitutes a normal mental state. I just want to make it clear what Leontes problem actually is. I don't necessarily object to calling Leontes insane (personally, I wouldn't, but some would). I do object, however, to him being characterized as insanely jealous. Leontes problem isn't that he's jealous. It's that he starts drawing unrealistic conclusions and then overreacting. Leontes says admits this himself:

Quote:

---

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

---

He doesn't just do this with jealousy, either. We have to remember that he also does this with his repentence. Whether acting like this is insane or not is debateable, but I just want to make clear what Leontes is actually doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sofia82

Shakespeare, as usual, starts the first scene as the introduction to what is the play about and what is going to happen in it.

---

Yeah, the two lords expose some of the plot. They also set the tone for the next scene.

I'll try to respond to the rest of your post when I come back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sofia82

From the beginning he refers to the difference between Sicilia and Bohemia which will be represented through the play; Sicilia as the part of tragic, gloomy aspect of the play, and Bohemia as the comedy aspect.

---

Sicilia is the setting of tragedy and Bohemia the setting of comedy. And yet, Sicilia is supposed to be where the entertainment is more festive and gay, the food and drinks more delectable (Act I, Scene i, 6-12); and I'm sure we can safely assume, that it's where the climate is warmer, the sky more often cerulean as compared to Bohemia in the north (although, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there seems to be some difference/error in the actual geographical location). What an irony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bouquin

Sicilia is the setting of tragedy and Bohemia the setting of comedy. And yet, Sicilia is supposed to be where the entertainment is more festive and gay, the food and drinks more delectable (Act I, Scene i, 6-12); and I'm sure we can safely assume, that it's where the climate is warmer, the sky more often cerulean as compared to Bohemia in the north (although, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there seems to be some difference/error in the actual geographical location). What an irony.

---

Is this because Shakespeare changed the real setting of the story which his play is based?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bouquin

Sicilia is the setting of tragedy and Bohemia the setting of comedy. And yet, Sicilia is supposed to be where the entertainment is more festive and gay, the food and drinks more delectable (Act I, Scene i, 6-12); and I'm sure we can safely assume, that it's where the climate is warmer, the sky more often cerulean as compared to Bohemia in the north (although, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there seems to be some difference/error in the actual geographical location). What an irony.

---

That is an interesting observation. I'll have to give it some thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sofia82

Another source I found in Wikipedia

One modern historian, Eric Ives, believes that the play is really a parody of the fall of Queen Anne Boleyn, who was beheaded on false charges of adultery on the orders of her husband Henry VIII in 1536. There are numerous parallels between the two stories - including the fact that one of Henry's closest friends, Sir Henry Norreys, was beheaded as one of Anne's supposed lovers and he refused to confess in order to save his life – claiming that everyone knew the Queen was innocent. If this theory is followed then Perdita becomes a dramatic presentation of Anne's only daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.

---

Now that IS intresting, all things concidered

Quote:

---

What do you think of this switching of characters

---

?

I was actually wondering if the switch is significant, Im not sure if the archetypal stereotypy of the people from warmer countries being 'hot blooded' and prone to extremes of emotion was around in Shakespeare's day but if it was, could it be significant that Leon and Othello ( another protagonist who flies off the handle with jealousy) were from warmer countries than the victims of their jealousies?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scheherazade

At the opening of Scene II, Pol says:

Nine changes of the watery star hath been
The shepherd's note since we have left our throne
Without a burthen:

So it has been 9 months since his arrival (yes, it is an interesting choice of period on Shakespeare's part). I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

---

Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period?

Quote:

---

I don't think Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.

---

Id agree with that :nod:

[QUOTE=Nightshade;590623]Now that IS intresting, all things concidered

Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period? QUOTE]

I think I have commented on these two points already - ref: #21

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Now that IS intresting, all things concidered
?

I was actually wondering if the switch is significant, Im not sure if the archetypal stereotypy of the people from warmer countries being 'hot blooded' and prone to extremes of emotion was around in Shakespeare's day but if it was, could it be significant that Leon and Othello ( another protagonist who flies off the handle with jealousy) were from warmer countries than the victims of their jealousies?

---

You raised a very valid point there about people from warmer climes being more 'hot blooded.'

And regarding the geographical location of Bohemia, it seems that there was a time when the territory extended all the way to the Adriatic coast so that it was not at all the land-locked area that it is today.

Prompt attack or long-standing malady, Leon's jealousy is indeed something very bizarre. But what I find even more outlandish - appalling, actually - is the punishment that he decides to inflict on Polix and Hermi, and the threat that he makes upon Camillo if the latter doesn't execute his wishes.

Just popped in to say hi and that I am trying to see how far the discusion has progressed. I am pretty much lost so far since I only read this one page but that does seem to be ironical, Sophia. I also liked the points that Scher brought up about the time-span.

My home computer is still non functional basically, so I am back in the library and time is so limited here. I need to get here earlier next week so I can catch up somewhat. Unfortunately they are closed the whole weekend and probably on Monday as well for the holiday - Independence Day - our 4th of July.

It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Just popped in to say hi and that I am trying to see how far the discusion has progressed. I am pretty much lost so far since I only read this one page but that does seem to be ironical, Sophia. I also liked the points that Scher brought up about the time-span.

---

Don't worry Janine, it seems we post comment a day and do nothing for the whole week. So you will be not so far behind ;)

Quote:

---

My home computer is still non functional basically, so I am back in the library and time is so limited here. I need to get here earlier next week so I can catch up somewhat. Unfortunately they are closed the whole weekend and probably on Monday as well for the holiday - Independence Day - our 4th of July.

---

So Happy Independence Day!

Quote:

---

It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!

---

Hope to see you soon with your comments and of course new computer!:yawnb:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period?

---

I think it is one of the factors that make Leon suspicious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!

---

Enjoy your break, Janine! Hope you can sort out the problems soon! :)

Just popping in quickly - the darn library closes now in a half hour. Silly since you would think it would be open on Friday night to keep the kids off the streets. Thanks everyone for you thumbs up. I actually have listened to the entire play now and hope to post some comments next week if I can fit it in. I am still considering what to do about a new computer. I was out looking; it all just takes time, right? I was sorry most of all to be missing this discussion. I even bought the play on DVD but I have not watched that yet - maybe this weekend. It should make the play clearer to me. Thanks Scher and thanks Sophia for you considerate/encouraging words.

The play progresses very quickly, doesn't it? I think that Leonettes goes from being so mean and unreasonable to his being sorry pretty rapidly. I guess when this play was first shown on stage in the Globe Theater, it had to progress rapidly to keep the attention of the audience. I do think this play draws one into the story quickly. The poor judgement of Leonettes does drive the plot from the beginning and rapidly all the other tragedies ensue.

Does anyone know at what time in Shakespeare's career/life this play was written?

It is an interesting play and one that is great to discuss. Be back next week with some more specific thoughts. Glad things are not progressing too quickly so that most likely I can catch up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

---

Janine if your computer is at all fixable then the chaps over at tech forums can probably help

http://www.tech-forums.net/pc/

I am one of those chaps on occasion :D , seriously though they have a very good security team if you have problems with viruses, the windows forum and the hardware forum are a bit more hit and miss but still not bad.

Back on topic, I haven't read the whole play yet but I haven't gotten the impression that Leontes irrational behaviour is anything more than jealously - jealously can be very powerful and personally I can fully believe the scenario, sounds like classic jealousy in fact. jealousy is a violent, bitter, vengeful emotion which can be quite cold blooded like hate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DapperDrake

Back on topic, I haven't read the whole play yet but I haven't gotten the impression that Leontes irrational behaviour is anything more than jealously - jealously can be very powerful and personally I can fully believe the scenario, sounds like classic jealousy in fact. jealousy is a violent, bitter, vengeful emotion which can be quite cold blooded like hate.

---

Hi, DapperDrake. How's the reading going so far? I think most of us are on Act II or III right now, but I'm sure you'll catch up. After all, Act II is very short.

As for jealousy, it was much discussed in the Act I discussion--though I'm not sure if we reached a consensus about it. We can say with some certainty that, yes, jealousy causes his behavior; however, the question that was argued over was whether his jealousy is innate or the result of his susceptibility to momentary impressions. Does that make any sense? The disagreement is over whether Leontes is just naturally jealous, or whether certain characteristics of Leontes make him susceptible to jealousy. It may seem like this argument is rather unimportant, but I think it actually has a large impact on how we interpret the rest of the play. I prefer to think of Leontes jealousy as caused by other traits in the King himself. Specifically, I look at his weakness of character which makes him susceptible to any thought that enters his head. In Act II he will say "I am a feather for each wind that blows" (ii, 154), and that is quite telling. It makes it seem like his thoughts are consumed by whatever slight impressions he receives. He becomes jealous then because his uncontrollable mind yields to a few suspicious interactions between Hermione and Polixenes. He isn't just a naturally jealous person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

Hi, DapperDrake. How's the reading going so far? I think most of us are on Act II or III right now, but I'm sure you'll catch up. After all, Act II is very short.

---

Reading is going slowly :) I'm about 1/2 way through Act II I think but I wanted to voice some opinions about Act I first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

Specifically, I look at his weakness of character which makes him susceptible to any thought that enters his head. In Act II he will say "I am a feather for each wind that blows" (ii, 154), and that is quite telling. It makes it seem like his thoughts are consumed by whatever slight impressions he receives. He becomes jealous then because his uncontrollable mind yields to a few suspicious interactions between Hermione and Polixenes. He isn't just a naturally jealous person.

---

"I am a feather for each wind that blows"

Yes this is about where I'm up to, but I simply take it that he's commenting on his surrender to his jealousy, he's saying that he cannot reason because his will is taken off by jealousy. (jealousy the wind and his will the feather)
My interpretation (bear in mind I'm only up to Act II Scene III) is that this is a simple tale of jealously with little else to be read into it from a motivational point of view.
I would say Leontes has been brooding over his jealously for months, its been gently simmering under the surface and then in act 1 scene 2 we see the trigger that causes his jealousy to boil over into a full passion.

later on in scene 2 where Leontes is talking to Camillo, lines 281-305, where Leontes describes the basis of his jealousy to Camillo I think clearly demonstrates that the jealousy precedes the start of the play.
I think that is also born out by the coldness with which Leontes asks Polixenes to stay another week - he's just observing the forms of hospitality and doesn't actually want Polixenes to stay, Hermione brings him up on it "You, Sir, charge him too coldly". Also I would say leontes preceding line is sarcastic "Tongue-tied, our queen? Speak you." - he's expecting her to come in an plead with Polixenes to stay because he suspects her infidelity.

In 1.2 lines 13-14 Polixenes says "Besides, I have stayed to tire your royalty.", I think this shows Polixenes has recognised that Leontes is off with him though it doesn't necessarily indicate that he knows the reason why.

So I think its safe to conclude that Leontes is not merely reacting to a momentary impression but has in fact been incubating a violent jealousy for an extended period, his queen entreating Polixenes to stay and then Polixenes agreeing to stay are the final straws and focus his feelings on the two of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DapperDrake

Reading is going slowly :) I'm about 1/2 way through Act II I think but I wanted to voice some opinions about Act I first.

---

That's okay. I'd like to talk about Act I more anyway. It's the best of the first three, I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DapperDrake

"I am a feather for each wind that blows"

Yes this is about where I'm up to, but I simply take it that he's commenting on his surrender to his jealousy, he's saying that he cannot reason because his will is taken off by jealousy.

---

I don't know. If he were trying to indicate just his jealousy here, he wouldn't say "each" wind. More likely, he would say "the" wind. "Each" gives the idea that he would yield to any kind of influence, not just one specific influence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DapperDrake

later on in scene 2 where Leontes is talking to Camillo, lines 281-305, where Leontes describes the basis of his jealousy to Camillo I think clearly demonstrates that the jealousy precedes the start of the play.

---

But at least some part of what Leontes says in that speech must be made up. He can't possibly have seen all this. Does he know her thoughts? Have they really been "kissing with inside lip?" The king is clearly making some stuff up here. Who's to say he isn't inventing everything in this speech? Very little of what Leontes claims can be believed after he becomes paranoid.

I think if we're to find a basis for Leontes's jealousy we need to look at that part just after the hand clasp. Here, Leontes is either speaking in an aside or talking to Mamillus which is almost aside since Mamillus doesn't know what Leontes is talking about. This part gives us a look into Leontes's mind better than any other part. It's a moment of self-contemplation for Leontes, and it marks the beginning of his paranoia. It makes sense to look here for the basis of his madness since Leontes is doing the same at this point. What he says is very helpful, too:

Quote:

---

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

---

This makes it sound like he's merely imagining much of what he supposes Hermione and Polixenes are doing. The fact that he's giving in to this kind of thinking appears to be his problem. Later in the play we'll see that he does this with another feeling. Rather than jealousy, he'll get carried away with something else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DapperDrake

So I think its safe to conclude that Leontes is not merely reacting to a momentary impression but has in fact been incubating a violent jealousy for an extended period, his queen entreating Polixenes to stay and then Polixenes agreeing to stay are the final straws and focus his feelings on the two of them.

---

It is possible that Leontes has been harboring jealous thoughts since before the play. It's also possible that they started in the first hundred lines of the play. We're told almost nothing of their past. Hermione charges Leontes of being too "cold" in his offer to Polixenes, but I don't think she means that Leontes was being chilly toward his friend. It means more that Leontes didn't pursue his point with enough vigor. That isn't overwhelming evidence that Leontes thinks Polixenes is sleeping with his wife. Leontes in general is a weaker character than his wife, and it would make sense that he wouldn't pursue his argument with Polizenes with the strength that his wife would.

Moreover, the time of origin for Leontes's jealousy doesn't change the above point. I know I used the word "momentary" in my last post, but really all I meant was weak or small. It's not necessarily that Leontes is giving into a "momentary" impression--although, he could be--it's that he's yielding to a "weak" impression. It's the act of yielding to his jealousy that's important, and not the jealousy itself. The quote above shows how a feeling can be blown out of proportion, and that's what Leontes is doing.

So what happened to the discussion? I will have to catch up and see what I can add. I just reviewed by watching the screen presentation of the play by the RSC - very good; you can all view photos of the production and others on this play, in the Shakespeare Stage and Screen Pictures thread.

Inevitably Shakespeare's works is too intricate if it is written in original text.Modern text will alleviate the problems.I cannot comprehend at all if it is in original text.My head churned immediately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilbur lim

Inevitably Shakespeare's works is too intricate if it is written in original text.Modern text will alleviate the problems.I cannot comprehend at all if it is in original text.My head churned immediately.

---

Sorry to hear that. I don't really have that problem now since I have read a good deal of his plays and his sonnets. It is certainly true the language can be a bit daunting for some. I had more trouble when I was younger and usually would rely on some audio recordings to understand just what was going on. I think some of the old English lingo and language is difficult because we can't fully comprehend all of it's meaning in today's world. Like it took me a great while to know what the words in the famous Hamlet speach refer to 'a bare botkin" - alas, I finally broke down and looked up the word and it meerly means 'a small unsheathed dagger'..duh for me:(.. Like how many times, had I heard the phrase and just skipped over it.

But basically, what I am trying to say, is the more you read or hear Shakespeare, the more it all sinks in and you get into the flow of the language and poetry of the plays. Try giving it another go maybe.

Sorry to say that I have failed miserably so far, with posting in this play discussion. I have no excuse at all, except being overwhelmed generally, at the present time. I did read the play, watch the video of the stage production twice and listen twice to the audio CD's, so you would think that I came her prepared. I have been hopeless here; but hope to make some worthwhile comments eventually. Here is something for now:

I think there is definitely precise text to show just what feeds Leonete's jealously and impending rage towards his wife and friend. It starts with her urging the other king to stay on and she does it in a very playful lighthearted mannor, much like flirting. There are key words in this section that would cause the Leonetes to have his own views on what they are talking about between them; of course he has twisted their words around to his own interpretations. Also Leontes blows the whole thing way out of proportion, but it seems that once set on that course, he can't stop his actions - they are like a chain of events spiralling him and his family downward. He is caught up in this violent tornado of over-sensitive perceptions and his own confluted temperament. Once the wife does not immediately say when the 'other time was' that she had shown as brightly to Leonetes, referring to the time that she gave into his advances and became betrothed to the L, then Leonetes goes wild with rage and jealousy - one can clearly see his sudden change in attitude and his suspicions taking form in his mind. He is totally wounded - the old 'male ego' thing is bruised and he feels underminded by his good friend and that his wife must be quilty of betraying him, by her unfaithfulness.

Hi guys. Sorry to have pretty much missed what looks like a fun discussion of Winter's Tale. I've posted some thoughts on the play in response to the act I discussion on my blog http://www.online-literature.com/forums/blog.php?b=6338. Hope something in there can be of interest to someone. Cheers.

Always good to read what you have to add to the discussion, Petrarch. I recalled you saying you would comment eventually. The forum seems to have been a bit slow these two months, probably due to vacations and then classes starting.
I am going now to read your blog post. Glad you could comment. I admit that I whimped out quite a bit on this discussion. I had a hard time keeping up last month while changing over to a new computer and windows version. I don't have any further excuse because I was well prepared having seen the play on DVD performed 2 times and listening 2 twice to the audio CD's. It was just bad timing for me unfortunatly.

Camillo acts correctly, but Shakespeare in delineating his character is careful to mix honor with prudence. The exchange in which Camillo warns Polixenes is an exercise in self-preservation, as he hitches not only his safety but his fortune to Polixenes, successfully jumping from one royal patron to another. It is also a scene in which we see both figures abandoning Hermione to her fate, with an almost comic haste, departing with the pious hope that Leontes will see that she is innocent, even as their flight can only be expected to confirm her guilt. Self-preservation is uppermost in the thoughts of both.