Christmas Reading: "Fathers and Sons" by Turgenev

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Originally Posted by Quark

So, I agree with Pavel, but I think I empathize with Bazarov. Hopefully, that means I have the good sides of each character. Or, maybe it just means I'm really confused. I think we're probably all in the middle somewhere. That's why Ardiskii (however you spell it) is the main character. We all, to some degree, feel stuck in the middle of Pavel and Bazarov going back and forth.

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Definitely not, Evegeniy Vasilyevich Bazarov is the main character, whole plot about traditionalism and nihilism is on his back, that little yo-yo is really useless.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Yet, if Pavel represents the older generations views, Bazarov the new, and Ardaskii (I'm going to change my spelling until I stumble into the correct one) is trapped in the middle, what is the purpose of Nikolai--the father. What purpose does he serve? Or, better put, what do you think of him?

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In my opinion his only purpose is to reduce Arkady's possibility of free thinking and showing how Arkady cannot be a true nihilist and act in that way. HIs love to his father is too strong and he cannot control it like Bazarov can.

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Originally Posted by Quark

So, why do you guys think Arkadii likes Bazarov so much in the beginning? He calls him smart, but what else do you suppose makes Bazarov likeable to Arkadii?

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He is everything what Arkady wants to be; smart, liberal and open minded. He made Arkady to stop think in old provincial way.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

Do we know the ages of Arkadii and Bazarov? I get the feeling that Bazarov is slightly older (a year or two), maybe a little more experience.

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Well, they are probably same age, they are at classes together.

[QUOTE=Janine;497264]
I think Bazarov presents himself as a sort of prophet or leader of the new scientific way of thinking and nilistic views. Others are usually drawn easily to that sort of personality - they appear to attact, even in some mysterious way. If you notice Bazarov is a man of few words as a rule and this only enhances his mystique to Arkady.
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Agree.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Yeah, I think Arkadii is looking to distance himself from his past life. He certainly realizes that things need to change around his father's land. Bazarov probably does attracts Arkadii because of his contrary opinions. In a few scenes, when Bazarov is challenging the older generation, Arkadii seems all too happy to echo Baz's radical notions.

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Arkady is also afraid of challenging his father and uncle; his love toward them is stronger then his nihilistic ideas and that's the reason of his rift with Bazarov.

Have you finished the novel?

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Definitely not, Evegeniy Vasilyevich Bazarov is the main character, whole plot about traditionalism and nihilism is on his back, that little yo-yo is really useless.

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In my opinion his only purpose is to reduce Arkady's possibility of free thinking and showing how Arkady cannot be a true nihilist and act in that way. HIs love to his father is too strong and he cannot control it like Bazarov can.

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This sounds like something 'E V Bazarov' would say! :lol:

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He is everything what Arkady wants to be; smart, liberal and open minded. He made Arkady to stop think in old provincial way.

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Well, phrased!

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Well, they are probably same age, they are at classes together.

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Later it does tell their age or Bazarov's, I believe. I think it was late 20's - maybe 28 or 9. I will look it up, but I don't have time presently.

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Agree.

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Oh, good...:)

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Arkady is also afraid of challenging his father and uncle; his love toward them is stronger then his nihilistic ideas and that's the reason of his rift with Bazarov.

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I have not reached that part of the book yet, but feel it is eminent.

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Have you finished the novel?

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Bazarov, I can only speak for myself - I am now about half way through the book; might be a little slow for me for now, until Christmas is over...I am so busy...therefore, please have patience...or if not, go on without me.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Dori, sometimes fewer, more 'select' words are better. You certainly hit upon several very good points here with specific references, to back up your ideas. I would agree entirely and the word 'charismatic' is an excellent one. Citing the example make perfect sense to me.

Good luck with your homework! ;)

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I try to back up whatever I can, because in my English teacher stresses that we should do so. I'm not very good at being succinct though. :p

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Have you finished the novel?

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I read it six months ago, so the story is still somewhat fresh in my mind. I'm reading it again and I only have about 60 or so pages left.

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Originally Posted by Dori

I try to back up whatever I can, because in my English teacher stresses that we should do so. I'm not very good at being succinct though. :p

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Dori, Absolutely, it is a good practice. In fact, usually in our Lawrence threads, we do post a lot of the text that applies to the idea(s), that we are trying to get across. You didn't do that here exactly, but I knew the part in the book you spoke of. I think the text is online and we can copy and past certain parts of it. I will check that out now. I know you were strapped for time (very understandable and so are most of us with the holidays approaching). I think you still did a fine job, backing up what you said and stating your ideas directly.

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I read it six months ago, so the story is still somewhat fresh in my mind. I'm reading it again and I only have about 60 or so pages left.

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Ahhh haaa, no wonder you are done the book so fast; well, good idea reading it again. I do that usually, if I have read the book before. I have to refresh my memory...it is getting overloaded with so much material! Unfortunately, I read this book about 15-20 yrs ago, so it is a wonder I do recall somethings I know will happen in the book. It must have left an indelible impression on me, don't you agree? I just heard on a interview, show an interviewer stating that he read somewhere 'that if one connect emotionally with something, it stays in their mind forever'. I thought that was interesting and so true. These are the memories we retain.

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Originally Posted by Dori

I read it six months ago, so the story is still somewhat fresh in my mind. I'm reading it again and I only have about 60 or so pages left.

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No problem! :D

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Originally Posted by Janine

This sounds like something 'E V Bazarov' would say! :lol:

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That's a compliment! :lol:

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Later it does tell their age or Bazarov's, I believe. I think it was late 20's - maybe 28 or 9. I will look it up, but I don't have time presently.

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I don't think so. It's said about Odincova's ages, about 28 or 29, and them much younger.

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I have not reached that part of the book yet, but feel it is eminent.

Bazarov, I can only speak for myself - I am now about half way through the book; might be a little slow for me for now, until Christmas is over...I am so busy...therefore, please have patience...or if not, go on without me.

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Sorry, sorry! Of course I will wait! I waited for this for years, I can wait for another week.

I went away for a few days when there wasn't much activity on the thread; and then, of course, as soon as I leave everyone comes back. Well, it will take me a moment to work through what everyone said, but I am glad that we got some discussion going.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Quark, did they actually say they both had just graduated? I thought I read that in the beginning. Since I am really busy decorating the house, etc...maybe you would be so kind to quote that passage for everyone's benefit.

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I thought they did. Here, hold on, let me find it. Mrmhph... This book is heavy. It's not just Fathers and Sons; it's a twelve-hundred page hard cover anthology of Russian Literature. It's got everything from Goncharov to Tolstoy, and there is even some Russian art shoved in the middle. Hey look a glossy picture of a painting by some famous Critical Realist. Wow, my idea of perspective is so being changed. Now, to find Turgenev I need remember when Fathers and Sons was published (everything is ordered chronologically). I'm thinking it has to be after Dead Souls, but before Anna Karenina. I flip randomly and hope I find it, but, no, I'm still in Tolstoy country. Oh, oh, wait, I have it. Turgenev! Here we go. Scanning... Yes, I'm right. Turgenev writes, "He was waiting for his son, who'd just graduated." In my book, this is page 635, but I think the page numbers are a little skewed by the other twelve hundred pages of Russian Lit crammed around the novel.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I agree with your last two statements here. I think we will see some change in Bazorov's attitudes, as the second half of the story progresses.

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Do you think Bazarov changes in the novel? I actually found him to be somewhat of a flat character. He grows a little bit in the end, but his character doesn't change that much.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Well, "The Ravine" is the title story for the audio cd set "The Ravine and other stories by Anton Chekhov", so it must be really good - the best one probably. It is narrated by Kenneth Branagh, so it should be something I would enjoy listening to; I would listen to him narrate the phone directory! He is a fine narrator and his "Richard III" is suberb, but that is with a full cast. :thumbs_up Of what I heard so far of the audiobooks Chekhov stories, he does the whole cast and it is quite interesting/amusing.

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I'm thinking about starting the Chekhov thread sometime in early January. I know everyone else is doing their's at the exact same time, but I don't want to wait any longer than I already have.

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Originally Posted by Dori

I believe Bazarov is a very charismatic individual. In chapter V, Bazarov "made friends [with two farm boys] at once, and set off with them to a small swamp about a mile from the house to look for frogs." This perhaps is a mild demonstration of his charisma, but I think it also attests to his good interpersonal skills (which also plays a part in attracting 'pupils') . He was also confident; in chapter II Turgenev writes of Bazarov, "He showed Nikolai Petrovich his whole face...it was lighted up by a tranquil smile, and showed self-confidence and intellegence."

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So you're drawn to Bazarov, too? I think he is likable, at times. Particularly, when he's refuting the arguments of idiots. But, I don't know if that means he has good interpersonal skills. You're right that Bazarov quickly befriends many of the people around him, but what do you suppose that means? I'm not even convinced that Bazarov is even capable of friendship. He's very cold and detached. Later in the novel you'll see how this part of his personality puts a strain on his relationships.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Definitely not, Evegeniy Vasilyevich Bazarov is the main character, whole plot about traditionalism and nihilism is on his back, that little yo-yo is really useless.

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Ha, I like Arkadii as a yo-yo. Also, it's impressive that you remember all three of Baz's names. I'm still not convinced Bazarov is the center of the story, though. When you say that Bazarov is the main character, I think you may be confusing conflict with plot. Baz does push the story to crisis. Ultimately, though, the crisis is Arkadii's. He is the one that feels compelled to choose. I know "main character" is not really a literary term, but I think if we had to apply the vague phrase to anyone, it would be him.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

In my opinion his only purpose is to reduce Arkady's possibility of free thinking and showing how Arkady cannot be a true nihilist and act in that way. HIs love to his father is too strong and he cannot control it like Bazarov can.

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I'm starting to agree with you. Originally, I thought Arkadii's decision was between Bazarov and Pavel. Yet, that doesn't really make any sense since Arkadii only pities Pavel. Really, the father is the other option for Arkadii. He has to decide whether to accept the radical doctrines of Bazarov or have compassion for his father.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Have you finished the novel?

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Yeah, it sounds like many of us are just rereading it.

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Originally Posted by Quark

I went away for a few days when there wasn't much activity on the thread; and then, of course, as soon as I leave everyone comes back. Well, it will take me a moment to work through what everyone said, but I am glad that we got some discussion going.

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Yeah, active little thread, isn't it? Glad to see you back again, Quark.:)

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I thought they did. Here, hold on, let me find it. Mrmhph... This book is heavy. It's not just Fathers and Sons; it's a twelve-hundred page hard cover anthology of Russian Literature. It's got everything from Goncharov to Tolstoy, and there is even some Russian art shoved in the middle. Hey look a glossy picture of a painting by some famous Critical Realist. Wow, my idea of perspective is so being changed. Now, to find Turgenev I need remember when Fathers and Sons was published (everything is ordered chronologically). I'm thinking it has to be after Dead Souls, but before Anna Karenina. I flip randomly and hope I find it, but, no, I'm still in Tolstoy country. Oh, oh, wait, I have it. Turgenev! Here we go. Scanning... Yes, I'm right. Turgenev writes, "He was waiting for his son, who'd just graduated." In my book, this is page 635, but I think the page numbers are a little skewed by the other twelve hundred pages of Russian Lit crammed around the novel.

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:lol: I know those anthology books - first off, they are so heavy one would get arthritis in the arms, trying to hold one up to read. I made the mistake of picking up two of those, looked barely used, from my library 'freeby' shelf...no wonder someone got rid of them; who would want to lug these 2000 p. Literature anthologies to class?! :(
Thanks for that information, having to wade through all those authors to find it, and I will look up that later passage when the text mentions someone's exact age.

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Do you think Bazarov changes in the novel? I actually found him to be somewhat of a flat character. He grows a little bit in the end, but his character doesn't change that much.

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Too soon to say for me, since like I already stated - I read the book about 15-20 yrs ago...considering my feeble aging mind...I can't say exactly yet...I was just vaguely recalling a change in him, so so I thought...maybe not....*you can see I am a little befuddled :eek: on this point*

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I'm thinking about starting the Chekhov thread sometime in early January. I know everyone else is doing their's at the exact same time, but I don't want to wait any longer than I already have.

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:thumbs_up Sounds good to me! I hope one of my stories gets picked. Did you read the two you said you had not yet read (my audiobook set)?

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So you're drawn to Bazarov, too? I think he is likable, at times. Particularly, when he's refuting the arguments of idiots. But, I don't know if that means he has good interpersonal skills. You're right that Bazarov quickly befriends many of the people around him, but what do you suppose that means? I'm not even convinced that Bazarov is even capable of friendship. He's very cold and detached. Later in the novel you'll see how this part of his personality puts a strain on his relationships.

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Quark, I agree with this. I don't think he has honed his interpersonal skills and I don't think he much cares either. He seems to befriend some but not all, he is completely selective, even to those he will treat curtiously. I thought on his first meetings with the father and uncle he was pretty arrogant and aloff and I can see how the father and uncle would form a curious impression of him from that first meeting (first impression). I don't feel he is capable of true friendship either - he is cold and detached. I think I recall feeling at the end that he was a person who was missing some element of his human feelings or just could not connect to them. Like I said I have a vague rememberance so I should wait and see before commenting, therefore don't quote me on these last sentences.

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Ha, I like Arkadii as a yo-yo. Also, it's impressive that you remember all three of Baz's names. I'm still not convinced Bazarov is the center of the story, though. When you say that Bazarov is the main character, I think you may be confusing conflict with plot. Baz does push the story to crisis. Ultimately, though, the crisis is Arkadii's. He is the one that feels compelled to choose. I know "main character" is not really a literary term, but I think if we had to apply the vague phrase to anyone, it would be him.

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I don't know. I am a little kinder and don't like to equate or label people as yo-yo's. I thought Bazarov was referring more to the conversation we all were having about which character we felt we related personally to or identified with. I agree with you in that I am not sure Bazarov is central but I tend to think he is as was Iago in 'Othello'...just using that as an example and might be a ways off. I think all 4 of the main characters here are key characters and I am not sure we can name one the 'main character' of the book - they all are needed to balance out the ideas presented.

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I'm starting to agree with you. Originally, I thought Arkadii's decision was between Bazarov and Pavel. Yet, that doesn't really make any sense since Arkadii only pities Pavel. Really, the father is the other option for Arkadii. He has to decide whether to accept the radical doctrines of Bazarov or have compassion for his father.

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I think I agree also, with this idea.

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Yeah, it sounds like many of us are just rereading it.

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I am 're-reading', but my poor senile brain needs to be refreshed of the remainder of the plot. Like I already stated, my remembrance of the rest of the story is shadowy, to say the least. I just recall now a couple of key scenes. I will read more tonight and hopefully knock off a few more chapters, if I am not too tired.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Definitely not, Evegeniy Vasilyevich Bazarov is the main character, whole plot about traditionalism and nihilism is on his back, that little yo-yo is really useless.


In my opinion his only purpose is to reduce Arkady's possibility of free thinking and showing how Arkady cannot be a true nihilist and act in that way. HIs love to his father is too strong and he cannot control it like Bazarov can.





He is everything what Arkady wants to be; smart, liberal and open minded. He made Arkady to stop think in old provincial way.

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I think somebody's a little biased. :lol:

I'm having a hard time seeing Arkadii as a yo-yo or not smart, not liberal, and not open minded, and there really isn't any evidence to suggest he is these things. Arkadii, to me seems like a guy trying to find his own way in the world. Who wouldn't be attracted to Bazarov's philosophies at that age, "don't believe in authorities" It's a built in crowd pleaser. I'm only halfway through so that may change.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I think somebody's a little biased. :lol:

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Could it be his name-sake? ;) :lol:

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I'm having a hard time seeing Arkadii as a yo-yo or not smart, not liberal, and not open minded, and there really isn't any evidence to suggest he is these things. Arkadii, to me seems like a guy trying to find his own way in the world. Who wouldn't be attracted to Bazarov's philosophies at that age, "don't believe in authorities" It's a built in crowd pleaser. I'm only halfway through so that may change.

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Yes, I would have to agree with Papayahed here....
and I would like to add, that I don't think any of the characters are clearly good or bad, or right or wrong, nothing is clearly black or white; I just think all are human with human tendencies and weaknesses.

I just want to remark on something as it is quite late:

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Originally Posted by Quark

Also, it's impressive that you remember all three of Baz's names.

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Not necessarily. Especially since we encounter Evgeny's dad later in the novel. The patronymic, Vasilyevich (however you want to spell it), is the fathers first name (Vasily) with -evich attached on the end. Therefore, it is quite easy to remember all of these. You just have to keep in mind the payronymics and you'll be set. ;)

Hi guys! I am reading the novel but don't have time to reply. I just flew into Texas to be with my family for Christmas. But I should post when I have more time. Really enjoying it...hope to read more of these comments.

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Originally Posted by grace86

Hi guys! I am reading the novel but don't have time to reply. I just flew into Texas to be with my family for Christmas. But I should post when I have more time. Really enjoying it...hope to read more of these comments.

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Hi Grace, great to see you here! Happy to see you are reading the book and enjoying it so. :thumbs_up Hope you can find time to post some thoughts on it, too.
Have a great time with you family. Glad you had a safe trip.

Started reading (only 5 chapters yet) but finding it hard to like Bazarov (no offence to our resident Bazarov here! :p)

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I'm just wondering if I would have read it when I was in my early twenties/teens would I identify with Bazarov and Arcady moreso then the father/uncle.

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Wondering the same thing too!

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Started reading (only 5 chapters yet) but finding it hard to like Bazarov (no offence to our resident Bazarov here! :p)Wondering the same thing too!

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Scheherazade, that is funny, when I started reading the book I read the first 5 chapters, too...they went by pretty quickly. I agree...I could not warm up to Bazarov in the first half of the book...he seemed so disrespectful to me of his elders and I found that a bit irritating. I am not sure now what I think of him; I am about half way done the novel.

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Originally Posted by Quark

I'm not even convinced that Bazarov is even capable of friendship. He's very cold and detached. Later in the novel you'll see how this part of his personality puts a strain on his relationships.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I agree with you in that I am not sure Bazarov is central but I tend to think he is as was Iago in 'Othello'...just using that as an example and might be a ways off.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

finding it hard to like Bazarov (no offence to our resident Bazarov here!

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Hmm, maybe we're being a little hard on Bazarov. Is he really Iago? Ouch. I was just trying to say that Baz, while being very intelligent and confident, is also distant and callous at times. We started out talking about why Bazarov was an attractive character. I just wanted to bring out what is unattractive about Bazarov.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Scheherazade, that is funny, when I started reading the book I read the first 5 chapters, too...they went by pretty quickly. I agree...I could not warm up to Bazarov in the first half of the book...he seemed so disrespectful to me of his elders and I found that a bit irritating. I am not sure now what I think of him; I am about half way done the novel.

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Exactly as I do :lol: I am currently on chapter 18 and I am not sure, but I think my opinion is going to be drastically changed. In fact I've read only the few first chapters before and I started seriously reading today, but I find it hard to leave the book. I was quite surprised when in the beginning I was more willing to identify myself with the older generation, although I am in my teens now, but it seems I am not the only one. Now I have only 100 pages left, so I am going to finish it :p

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Originally Posted by Quark

Hmm, maybe we're being a little hard on Bazarov. Is he really Iago? Ouch. I was just trying to say that Baz, while being very intelligent and confident, is also distant and callous at times. We started out talking about why Bazarov was an attractive character. I just wanted to bring out what is unattractive about Bazarov.

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Hi Quark,no need to say "Ouch" - No, you took me all wrong. I did not mean he was like Iago (Iago is an extreme case). I just meant that, even thought the play is called "Othello", isn't the most interesting character Iago? He is the most complex and hard to figure out. I just mean this as an example of how one character can 'steal the show', so to speak. I think all eyes are turned to Bazarov and therefore, he does feel 'central' to the story and the plot and the ideas behind the story. If there was no Bazarov, there would be no story "Fathers and Sons". Can you see what I mean? There are many things about Bazarov that I find to be very unattractive. I am a 'people person' and I don't see this with Bazarov, sure he made friends with the young boys when he went to gather specimens but is that such an accomplishment; he talked to the peasants and they might have been the friendly ones there, but when it comes to his friend's own family members he has no social graces and seems insolent to me at times...really ignorant of their feelings. I, like several others have expressed, did not like him at all at first. He seemed to think he was 'above it all' and I don't take well to people such as that.

Yes, Alexei, isn't it something how one can't put the book down...a little easier for me this time around since I sort of know what is to come but when you don't you want to read on to see where the story will lead us. Turgenev really has a great way of pulling the reader in and keeping his/her attention. He is an easy author to read because he is so direct and does not draw out everything in endless detail. Even descriptive parts of the book are not long, but just right, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Alexei

Exactly as I do :lol: I am currently on chapter 18 and I am not sure, but I think my opinion is going to be drastically changed. In fact I've read only the few first chapters before and I started seriously reading today, but I find it hard to leave the book. I was quite surprised when in the beginning I was more willing to identify myself with the older generation, although I am in my teens now, but it seems I am not the only one. Now I have only 100 pages left, so I am going to finish it :p

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You may be the farthest into the book of any of us. I didn't know you were in you teens, though. I've seen you on a couple of other threads, and something made me think you were older. So you like the older Kirsanovs? I think I like the Nikolai more than I like Pavel. You feel for Nikolai in this book; Pavel is just too absurd of a character for me to really indentify with.

Oh, and Janine, sorry I misread your post there. I saw Bazarov and Iago in the same sentence, and I thought you were trying to villainize Bazarov--which would be kind of harsh. Now that I actually read what you're saying correctly, I think I agree with you. Bazarov does steal the show, at times. During the arguments with the parents, I'm far more interested in what Baz has to say than any of the other characters.

I'm dying to talk about Bazarov at Madam Odintzov and his statement that all people are the same:

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"People are like trees in a forest; no botanist would dream of studying each birch tree in detail"

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"In a proper functioning society it woldn't matter a jot whether a man were stupid or intellegent, good or bad"

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He back up those statements by saying that all men have the same spleen. He never mentions what a "proper functioning society" would be? I'm noticing he criticizes everything but hasn't given answers on how to make things right.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I'm dying to talk about Bazarov at Madam Odintzov and his statement that all people are the same:

He back up those statements by saying that all men have the same spleen. He never mentions what a "proper functioning society" would be? I'm noticing he criticizes everything but hasn't given answers on how to make things right.

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Do you want to talk about Baz's sayings philosophically or do want to consider them as part of Turgenev's characterization of Bazarov?

Well, I finished the book and now I am quite exited about it. I have finally formed my general impression. I think I am slightly disappointed. It's not like I didn't like the book, on the contrary - I like it very much, but I started reading with a very different idea about what I am going to read. I suppose I expected to see something more like Dostoevsky and Tolstoy I am not sure. On the other hand, as I've already said, I liked it very much, especially the second part of the book, but I will talk about it later :p Actually, I have a little complain - I wanted it to be a little longer :D

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Originally Posted by Janine

Hi Quark,no need to say "Ouch" - No, you took me all wrong. I did not mean he was like Iago (Iago is an extreme case). I just meant that, even thought the play is called "Othello", isn't the most interesting character Iago? He is the most complex and hard to figure out. I just mean this as an example of how one character can 'steal the show', so to speak. I think all eyes are turned to Bazarov and therefore, he does feel 'central' to the story and the plot and the ideas behind the story. If there was no Bazarov, there would be no story "Fathers and Sons". Can you see what I mean? There are many things about Bazarov that I find to be very unattractive. I am a 'people person' and I don't see this with Bazarov, sure he made friends with the young boys when he went to gather specimens but is that such an accomplishment; he talked to the peasants and they might have been the friendly ones there, but when it comes to his friend's own family members he has no social graces and seems insolent to me at times...really ignorant of their feelings. I, like several others have expressed, did not like him at all at first. He seemed to think he was 'above it all' and I don't take well to people such as that.

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I can see what are you talking about, Bazarov is domineering the whole novel, I feel it the same way (well, I think this is doubtless, but never mind, I just needed to say it :lol: ). I find him very special even though I can't start to like him or identify myself with him. I find charming this need to have certain attitude toward him, you can't just ignore him, you have to like him or dislike him. It's all because he is such strong character, but still this fascinates me, may be it's because for a long time I haven't read a book with main character having such overwhelming personality.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, Alexei, isn't it something how one can't put the book down...a little easier for me this time around since I sort of know what is to come but when you don't you want to read on to see where the story will lead us. Turgenev really has a great way of pulling the reader in and keeping his/her attention. He is an easy author to read because he is so direct and does not draw out everything in endless detail. Even descriptive parts of the book are not long, but just right, in my opinion.

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I am not really sure whether I like this. I generally prefer more detailed style of writing with more descriptions and sometimes long reflections on the characters' behavior and personality. But still I like the book and keeps me interested.

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Originally Posted by Quark

You may be the farthest into the book of any of us. I didn't know you were in you teens, though. I've seen you on a couple of other threads, and something made me think you were older. So you like the older Kirsanovs? I think I like the Nikolai more than I like Pavel. You feel for Nikolai in this book; Pavel is just too absurd of a character for me to really indentify with.

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Really? That's very interesting, especially after I just turned 17 a little more than a week ago :lol:
I am not sure who is the one I prefer. For me there is something interesting and attracting in both of them. Nikolai seems so romantic and gentle and, of course, there is something that win him o his side - his playing the violoncello. I don't know I find something so sad in the way Bazarov decided that this is ridiculous. I am not talking about Bazarov now, just about the estimate of the action. It gives off such sorrow. And then in this sentence:

"Oh, how Bazarov would have laughed at him, if he had known what was passing within him now! Arkady himself would have condemned him. He, a man forty-four years old, an agriculturist and a farmer, was shedding tears, causeless tears; this was a hundred times worse than the violoncello."

As for Pavel, I think this sentence depict his character the best:

"Pavel Petrovich walked on to the end of the garden, also deep in thought, and he, too, raised his eyes to the sky--but his beautiful dark eyes reflected only the light of the stars. He was not born a romantic idealist, and his fastidiously dry though ardent soul, with its tinge of French scepticism, was not addicted to dreaming . . ."

The English translation is so beautiful. I am reading it on Bulgarian it's so different. I like this one better, it's more poetic. I've checked the Russian text and it's actually closer to mine, there are some slight changes in the English one, still I think I prefer it :p There the statement is more direct here things are hinted, but it doesn't sound so much as "final verdict".

I think there is something captivating in all this. I find a certain beauty in the contradiction of this description and the description of Pavel's love story in chapter 7 (may be it's not a perfect contradiction, but still I find at least a slight one).

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I'm dying to talk about Bazarov at Madam Odintzov and his statement that all people are the same:

"People are like trees in a forest; no botanist would dream of studying each birch tree in detail"

"In a proper functioning society it woldn't matter a jot whether a man were stupid or intellegent, good or bad"

He back up those statements by saying that all men have the same spleen. He never mentions what a "proper functioning society" would be? I'm noticing he criticizes everything but hasn't given answers on how to make things right.

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I find them interesting it too, although my first reaction is of strong disagreement. I think he is neglecting the fact that the mind isn't something like an organ in the human organism.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

Do we know the ages of Arkadii and Bazarov?

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Originally Posted by Janine

I don't think the text ever stated their ages at all, did it...does anyone know?

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In Chapter XXVI, Arkady says, "I am not now the conceited boy I was when I came here...I've not reached twenty-three for nothing..."

And in Chapter XXV, Anna Seergevna says, "...and to see that he is clever...And [Arkady's] young...that's the great thing...not like you and me, Evgeny Vasilich." Although this statement doesn't directly refer to the age of Evgeny, I do believe he is older than Arkady. Anna Seergevna "was a little older than Arkady---she was twenty-nine---..." (Chapter XIV)

It is like Quark said - I go away for a time and come back and wow, so much has happened here - 5 or 6 new posts! I am too tired now to address any, but I did read them all. It has been a hectic day and I am tired out....sorry. I will keep reading.

``why do you guys think Arkadii likes Bazarov so much in the beginning? He calls him smart, but what else do you suppose makes Bazarov likeable to Arkadii?``


Reply: Bazarov represents the new form of thinking. This would be a time, in the lives of these two young men, when they feel the need to reject the old ways and rebell against them.


A good reply.

Both were students at a time when scholars were preaching socialism and a new order in Europe. As they pass by cart through an impoverished village, Arkady reflects in this manner:

``"It's a pity about the forest," said Arkady, and began to look around him.

The country through which they were driving could not possibly be called picturesque. Field after field stretched right up to the horizon, now gently sloping upwards, then slanting down again; in some places woods were visible and winding ravines, planted with low scrubby bushes, vividly reminiscent of the way in which they were represented on the old maps of Catherine's times. They passed by little streams with hollow banks and ponds with narrow dams, small villages with low huts under dark and often crumbling roofs, and crooked barns with walls woven out of dry twigs and with gaping doorways opening on to neglected threshing floors; and churches, some brick-built with the stucco covering peeling off in patches, others built of wood, near crosses fallen crooked in the overgrown graveyards. Gradually Arkady's heart began to sink. As if to complete the picture, the peasants whom they met were all in rags and mounted on the most wretched-looking little horses; the willows, with their broken branches and trunks stripped of bark, stood like tattered beggars along the roadside; lean and shaggy cows, pinched with hunger, were greedily tearing up grass along the ditches. They looked as if they had just been snatched out of the clutches of some terrifying murderous monster; and the pitiful sight of these emaciated animals in the setting of that gorgeous spring day conjured up, like a white ghost, the vision of interminable joyless winter with its storms, frosts and snows . . . "No," thought Arkady, "this country is far from rich, and the people seem neither contented nor industrious; we just can't let things go on like this; reforms are indispensable . . . but how are we to execute them, how should we begin?" ``


Arkady is someone with great feeling, great empathy for those who suffer. His father owns serfs and is responsible for some of this imposed pain. But Barzov and his ideals promises reformation and betterment for those victims. Thus, he gives Arkady hope and a newer, better vision for the future.

``Bazarov quickly befriends many of the people around him, but what do you suppose that means? ``


Arkady's father views himself as having an enlightened view of serfdom. If I recall correctly (I read the book about 2 years ago) he abated certain tributes or taxes and has relieved them of certain work obligations. But they are still serfs to him!

By contrast, Bazarov rejects all theories (new or old) about serfdom. As a nihilist, he regards all men as equals and he is fully receptive to all whether rich man, poor man, beggar man, etc. ''A nihilist is a person who does not bow down to any authority, who does not accept any principle on faith, however much that principle may be revered." But he accepts people as they are: ''In a few minutes Bazarov had explored all the little paths in the garden; he went into the cattle yard and the stables, discovered two farm boys with whom he made friends at once ... Bazarov, who had a special capacity for winning the confidence of lower-class people''.

To Bazarov the nihilist, principles mean nothing - people are all that matter.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Do you think Bazarov changes in the novel? I actually found him to be somewhat of a flat character. He grows a little bit in the end, but his character doesn't change that much.

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No, not too much, actually; he just shows his ''human'' side.

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You're right that Bazarov quickly befriends many of the people around him, but what do you suppose that means? I'm not even convinced that Bazarov is even capable of friendship. He's very cold and detached. Later in the novel you'll see how this part of his personality puts a strain on his relationships.

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He is not cold; there was no one to warm him up before he met Odintzova. He acted in his nihilistic style, carrying for nobody.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Also, it's impressive that you remember all three of Baz's names. I'm still not convinced Bazarov is the center of the story, though. When you say that Bazarov is the main character, I think you may be confusing conflict with plot. Baz does push the story to crisis. Ultimately, though, the crisis is Arkadii's.

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Originally Posted by Dori

Not necessarily. Especially since we encounter Evgeny's dad later in the novel. The patronymic, Vasilyevich (however you want to spell it), is the fathers first name (Vasily) with -evich attached on the end. Therefore, it is quite easy to remember all of these. You just have to keep in mind the payronymics and you'll be set. ;)

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...or -ovich; so

Arkady Nikolayevich Kirsanov
Nikolay Petrovich Kirsanov
Pavel Petrovich Kirsanov
Ana Sergeyevna Odintzova

I will stop here...:)

Even when he dies, they are still talking about him. He is the representative model of nihilist, because Arkady obviously isn't.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I think somebody's a little biased. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Janine

Could it be his name-sake? ;) :lol:

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No, why...:lol: :lol:

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Originally Posted by Janine

I'm having a hard time seeing Arkadii as a yo-yo or not smart, not liberal, and not open minded, and there really isn't any evidence to suggest he is these things.

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I am just saying he is not a nihilist!

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Originally Posted by papayahed

He back up those statements by saying that all men have the same spleen. He never mentions what a "proper functioning society" would be? I'm noticing he criticizes everything but hasn't given answers on how to make things right.

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They are nihilists. Their theory is that everything is wrong but they don't give any solutions for solving it. Check first conversation between youth and elders.

Their theory is that everything is wrong but they don't give any solutions for solving it.


Precisely.

In his prolonged and often hostile discussion with Pavel, Bazarov is challenged thusly:

'' 'you became convinced of all this and decided not to undertake anything seriously yourselves'

'We decided not to undertake anything'

... ' And to confine yourselves to criticism?'

'And to confine ourselves to criticism'

'And that's called nihilism?'

''And that's called nihilism'. ''


All talk, no solutions. No wonder nihilism went kaput.


Part X p 54 [The Modern Library Edition]

But Bazarov was not entirely devoid of some measure of practicality.

In his discussion with Pavel, he expressed admiration for Germanic pragmatism, especially their advancements in science and medicine. ''The Germans are our instructors in this ... The scientists there are sensible people ... A good chemist is twenty times as useful as any poet''.

Ch VI, pp 26, 27

In that time period, Bazarov would have been called a Westernizer as opposed to slavophiles. The former viewed Russia as too archaic and wished to have it modernized by adopting European standards. The latter argued that social salvation or advancement could have or should have been achieved by affirming traditional Russian values.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

He is not cold; there was no one to warm him up before he met Odintzova. He acted in his nihilistic style, carrying for nobody.

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Yeah, Mrs. Odintzova awakens something inside of Bazarov that he isn't exactly comfortable with. Does Baz learn anything from this, though? I wonder why he strikes out with both women he approaches? And, why does Turgenev make Baz so successful in certain situations and yet so hopelessly inept in others?

``why does Turgenev make Baz so successful in certain situations and yet so hopelessly inept in others?``

Perhaps it was because this illustrates that Bazarov, like other reformists of his time, was well intentioned, but doomed to failure. In this, Turgenev is accurately predicting doom for those reformists as happened to Decembrists and others from the previous generation.

Interesting discussion so far; I have been reading along and will comment this week - too tired out now from holiday preparations.
I just wanted to stop by and wish everyone a happy holiday season....


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p.../PeaceTree.jpg

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Originally Posted by Quark

Yeah, Mrs. Odintzova awakens something inside of Bazarov that he isn't exactly comfortable with. Does Baz learn anything from this, though? I wonder why he strikes out with both women he approaches? And, why does Turgenev make Baz so successful in certain situations and yet so hopelessly inept in others?

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He learns, but it was too late; he died and had no time to use it.
Bazarov said that ''no woman is worth of his internal peace'', it was all some kind of joke. As a scientist, he was successful in things were only brain was needed, and when some normal human feelings were involved, he failed; there are no emotions in nihilism.

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Originally Posted by hellsapoppin

Perhaps it was because this illustrates that Bazarov, like other reformists of his time, was well intentioned, but doomed to failure. In this, Turgenev is accurately predicting doom for those reformists as happened to Decembrists and others from the previous generation.

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Agree. Bazarov represents nihilism and Turgenev wanted to show through Bazarov's death how will those reformist movements in Russia end up. That's also a reason why Bazarov had to die, his death was inevitable.


Do you, after all consider Bazarov as a nihilist?

Thanks Janine, enjoy yourself too. :)

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Do you, after all consider Bazarov as a nihilist?

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It will help to have a definition of nihilism at hand. My book states that "[...] twentieth century nihilism came to signify deep existential doubt or the belief that life lacks meaning. However, that is not the nihilism of Fathers and Sons. In the novel, nihilism in the philosophical sense is a rejection of idealism and a willingness to believe only in what is provable by observation; in a political sense it is anti-absolutist, a rejection of the traditional social order and a reliance instread on scientific principles and practicality."

With regard to the above definition, I believe Evgeny Bazarov is a nihilist. I think Turgenev intended for him to be a nihilist (my book also states that "In a letter to the poet and editor K.K. Slutchevsky, Turgenev advises that when Bazarov calls himself a nihilist, the word should be read as meaning 'revolutionary'"). However, his nihilism is overcome at times by human emotions, namely love.

``Do you, after all consider Bazarov as a nihilist?``

Definitely. Especially since he specifically calls himself one.

But again, for all of his professed idealism, he is not totally without some measure of practicality: when he and Arkady discussed Mrs Odintsov he praised her practicality when she married a wealthy man (she had been let impoverished by her deceased father who was a gambler). ''Marrying a wealthy old man is not a strange thing to do. On the contrary, it makes perfect sense ... I'd like to think that it's justified'' {p 79}.

In his discussion with her, Bazarov discussed medicine and applied sciences while disdaining the arts. Mrs Odintsov readily held her own in that talk which lasted for three hours. Obviously, she was self educated and very enterprising - an attribute that was essential in the emerging and reforming society.


``Bazarov had to die, his death was inevitable``

Perhaps a spoiler alert is warranted. But yes, at bottom he was impractical owing to his standards and actions. By contrast, Mrs O took all that life had given her and accepted it as Fate. ''Order is essential in everything'' she said. ''Having no prejudices of any kind, or even strong convictions ... she'd seen many things clearly ... after all, tranquility is the best thing on earth''.


What could possibly have caused this big contrast in characterization?

Perhaps it is that Bazarov got his education in school, while Mrs O got hers in the school of hard knocks.

pp 91, 92, 109

Just completed first five chapters (thanks goes to the online lit-net version of this book) :) So far, the story has been quite good, especially, things have started being interesting from the fifth chapter.

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He has no faith in principles but he has faith in frogs.

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- Pavel Petrovich about Bazarov

As I have only read a little bit of it, I don't think I shall judge Bazarov's character but till now he has seemed to me very cold, distant and even insolent, and a person that I liked reading about as a character but could not bring myself to like as a person I would have to say, but then my views might change later. :p

I wish I had started the novel a few days earlier, hope I can catch up with you guys.

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Just completed first five chapters (thanks goes to the online lit-net version of this book) :) So far, the story has been quite good, especially, things have started being interesting from the fifth chapter.

[...]

I wish I had started the novel a few days earlier, hope I can catch up with you guys.

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I'm glad you could join us, Pensive. :) It seems that you are enjoying it so far.

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Originally Posted by Dori

I'm glad you could join us, Pensive. :) It seems that you are enjoying it so far.

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:)

Yes, indeed. Dialogues are mostly intelligent and entertaining. At the moment, am on the thirteenth chapter. And yes, still can't bring myself to like Bazarov as a person despite his witty character.

Finally finished it. It has been one of those few books lately that I have completed in one sitting. :)

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Originally Posted by Dori

It will help to have a definition of nihilism at hand. My book states that "[...] twentieth century nihilism came to signify deep existential doubt or the belief that life lacks meaning. However, that is not the nihilism of Fathers and Sons. In the novel, nihilism in the philosophical sense is a rejection of idealism and a willingness to believe only in what is provable by observation; in a political sense it is anti-absolutist, a rejection of the traditional social order and a reliance instread on scientific principles and practicality."

With regard to the above definition, I believe Evgeny Bazarov is a nihilist. I think Turgenev intended for him to be a nihilist (my book also states that "In a letter to the poet and editor K.K. Slutchevsky, Turgenev advises that when Bazarov calls himself a nihilist, the word should be read as meaning 'revolutionary'"). However, his nihilism is overcome at times by human emotions, namely love.

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I agree. When I look at the definition of 'nihilism' in my Oxford Dictionary, it says: rejection of all religious and moral principles. Now if we consider this definition, Bazarov doesn't seem like a nihilist to me. Having finished the book just a few minutes ago, I clearly remember him mentioning to Pavel after duel when he got wounded something like, "First of all I am a doctor so I would clear up your wounds." (I don't remember the exact wording but whatever it was, it conveyed this exact message) Now according to that, he seems to be following the usual code of morals quite well, the duty of a doctor and all that. :p One can say that it was his inner goodness which made him do so, no doubt that must have that played a part in that too but I feel he believed it to be his duty as a doctor too. I hope I am making sense here.

But if we actually consider how the book represents nihilism, I like the way how Dori has put it above, then probably he was a nihilist but I wouldn't be too sure about it.

Someone wrote previously in this thread that she/he considers Bazarov to be a nihilist because Bazarov himself admitted that. I don't think that everything we claim to be we actually are. Just a thought.

``... Bazarov to be a nihilist because Bazarov himself admitted that. I don't think that everything we claim to be we actually are. Just a thought.``


A very good and meaningful thought, it might be added. But one thing we must remain mindful of: definitions of terms evolve over the years.

Yesteryear's Republican stood for less government, non intervention overseas, civil rights, and equal opportunity for everyone.

Today (without being unduly political about it) the term means something quite different - in fact, quite the opposite of all that.

Therefore, let us be mindful of 'nihilist' as it was defined back then. I believe that Turgenev succeeds in illustrating the sterility of this ideology via Bazarov's outlook, conduct, character shortcomings, and the inevitable tragedy that befell him.

That's a nice tree Janine. Mine is kind of leaning to one side; I couldn't get it in the stand right. I can decorate one side, but the ornaments just slip off the other. At least one side is festive. The other I just turn to the back.

I hope everyone else is having a good Christmas.

As for Baz's title, I agree that he isn't a nihilist in the usual sense. He certainly has beliefs, and he earnestly believes that he can improve society with his ideas. The better word we might label Bazarov with is "Materialist". Bazarov does believe that better living conditions, health, and prosperity would make life better. He just reject the idea that morals, philosophies, or arts are important in any way. All of that he considers just braindead whimsies dreamed up by a malfunctioning consciousness. These are the views normally associated with Materialism. They may appear as nihilistic to an Idealist like Pavel, but really they're something seperate.