April / Wharton Reading: 'Ethan Frome'

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Originally Posted by Janine

He knew no other thing, but taking care of people. He was disfunctional as all the characters are in this story, but he was hardly a whimp. A whimp could not provide for three people and Ethan worked hard to do so. He was a certain quiet personality and a dreamer, but not a whimp in my definition of the word.

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i think his life is determined by the social circumstances he lives in. when he consideres eloping with Mattie he nearly decides to do it but then he can't make up his mind because a) he feels he has to support Zeena and b) he doesn't have enough money to go west.

if he could shake off his traditional views (the husband has to provide for the wife etc) and free himself from these obligations he'd be able to leave Zeena.
also, if he were less realistic/materialistic he and Mattie could go West anyway. they'd be destitute tramps but at least they'd be together.
the only way of living he knows is to live as a married man and hard-working farmer.

I finished last night and I think this is an excellent novel. Although I must say I have mixed feelings on the climax. This was such a fast and pleasurable read, I'm going to re-read it before I comment on the ending.

Some good points already made. Let me give some of my thoughts.

As to the frame structure, Wharton's use here seems closer to Emily Bronte's use in Wuthering Heights. Wharton does it I think (IMO, before anyone jumps on me for thinking I'm an authority) to present an outsider's perspective up front. The core of the novel is told from Ethan's point of view, and I assume he is the one telling the narrator the story, and the narrator has written it out. To present an eye witness looking in at Ethan up front does several things: it separates the world that Ethan lives in as opposed to the outside world; it introduces another's value judgement; it gives the story more foundation as fact; it brings the reader in as if to say, look at this weird guy (we've all have seen such weird guys), what's his story? If the story was told only from the weird guy's point of view, then we wouldn't have the contrast. Ethan's world is quite distinct in many ways, somewhat out dated (perhaps there's a better word?) at the turn of the 20th century, but certainly still existed in rural pockets.

Another interesting fact is that the narrator is an engineer, and that Ethan had studied engineering in Worcester, the big city. Worcester is an industrial city, I've been there, and while somewhat delapidated today because it has not quite made the transition to the computer age, was an important technical center 100 years ago. There are good technical universties there still. This really caught my attention, since I'm an engineer :p , and given that both characters were or almost were engineers cannot be coincidence. There is clearly a suggestion here that Wharton is making, and given the shocking and detailed hard farming life that she narrates, presents a contrast between the modern world and an old world.

Another point, nature is no friend here. I don't recall reading any scene (except ironically the climax) where nature is mild and pleasurable. It is brutal and at odds with everything human. Janine somewhere above mentions some similarity to D.H. Lawrence. Yes, Ethan is taciturn and simple like some of Lawrence's characters, emotional and tied to natural cycles, but even where nature is brutal in Lawrence (and there are plenty of places) it is at least spiritual. I don't recall nature ever being spiritual here. The old world is not glorified here.

More points to come in future posts.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

To present an eye witness looking in at Ethan up front does several things: it separates the world that Ethan lives in as opposed to the outside world; it introduces another's value judgement; it gives the story more foundation as fact; it brings the reader in as if to say, look at this weird guy (we've all have seen such weird guys), what's his story? If the story was told only from the weird guy's point of view, then we wouldn't have the contrast.

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hello Uncle Virgil :wave:

yep, that's exactly what i thought, too. The narrator in the frame directly addresses the reader and draws his/her/their attention to Ethan.
If the story were told only by Ethan himself we might think "So what? what's this old fart on about? who cares about the story of his life?" but the narrator has already singled him out as an interesting person and makes us curious to learn more about him.

Wharton herself was unhappy with the frame but she couldn't think of any better way to do it.
Personally speaking, I don't like frames too much, but this particularly story would be a bit lame without the frame.

about the engineer-narrator... did he strike anyone else as a bit feminine?
i know he's supposed to be a male but to me he read like a female, especially because of his 'feminine gaze' (the way he describes Ethans face, takes an interest in a random male stranger, and is shy around him, particularly when they go to the train station on Ethans sleigh)

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

Wharton herself was unhappy with the frame but she couldn't think of any better way to do it.
Personally speaking, I don't like frames too much, but this particularly story would be a bit lame without the frame.

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Did she commet on it? I would like to read her thoughts on the structure. I doubt I'll have the time, but I would need to go to a research library and that's an hour a way in Manhatten for me.

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about the engineer-narrator... did he strike anyone else as a bit feminine?
i know he's supposed to be a male but to me he read like a female, especially because of his 'feminine gaze' (the way he describes Ethans face, takes an interest in a random male stranger, and is shy around him, particularly when they go to the train station on Ethans sleigh)

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I didn't get that sense. When I read it a second time I'll look for it. Perhaps you picked up Wharton's persona in the writing.

great... i wrote a reply to Virgil's post and my computer got stuck up and ate the post. now I'd have to write it all again... :(:flare:

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

great... i wrote a reply to Virgil's post and my computer got stuck up and ate the post. now I'd have to write it all again... :(:flare:

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That's happened to me too. :flare: It really angers me too.

oops, it is there after all....

yep Wharton commented on the structure. there are some letters by Wharton in the Norton Critical Edition.. but i've pretty much quoted all it says there.

yep, maybe it was her persona shining through the narrator... maybe she didn't take too much effort to efface her own voice in the frame... later on, in the main story, i didn't get that sense (i mean the narrator didn't sound feminine)

Finished reading the book over the weekend and I cannot say I am as impressed with it as I was with Age of Innocence. Even though Wharton's writing style is still wonderful and keeps the reader (or at least me) engaged, I didn't care much about the storyline; too sentimental and tragic for my liking.

Virgil> I was also thinking of Wuthering Heights while reading it.

Sleepy> I think the narrator sounds too 'mild' compared to 'country folks' who dominate the book. He is an outsider, an educated town person, which might explain the 'feminine' vibe you get.

I think Ethan is singled out from the very beginning of the story; in the first chapter, his name is repeated ever so often in full, 'Ethan Frome', that the reader cannot help getting interested in him.

Wondering if anyone else noted the parallel between his relationship with his mother, wife and Mattie... First, he is fond of his mother's company, when she used to be well and chatty. When she falls ill and looked after by Zeena, he develops a fondness for her company. However, she falls ill too (I agree with above posts that she is hypochondriac) and is not a lively person anymore. And finally, Mattie comes to look after Zeena and he develops a fondness for her. It is very ironic, in my opinion, that at the end Mattie also loses her liveliness and turns into a bitter person and Ethan is stuck with them both. I cannot help wondering whether he would have developed a liking for her too had there been another person looking after Mattie at the end...

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Virgil> I was also thinking of Expectations while reading it.

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Great Expectations? In what way?

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Wondering if anyone else noted the parallel between his relationship with his mother, wife and Mattie... First, he is fond of his mother's company, when she used to be well and chatty. When she falls ill and looked after by Zeena, he develops a fondness for her company. However, she falls ill too (I agree with above posts that she is hypochondriac) and is not a lively person anymore. And finally, Mattie comes to look after Zeena and he develops a fondness for her. It is very ironic, in my opinion, that at the end Mattie also loses her liveliness and turns into a bitter person and Ethan is stuck with them both. .

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Yes, his life history is where he is in constant care of the women around him. In the end he strikes me to be that horse that he trugs along.

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I cannot help wondering whether he would have developed a liking for her too had there been another person looking after Mattie at the end

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Perhaps, but we will never know.

Bah! I wanted to say Wuthering Heights, not Expectations!

I also said Expectations instead of David Copperfield during a discussion tonight... Maybe I should read Expectations again! :p

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Bah! I wanted to say Wuthering Heights, not Expectations!

I also said Expectations instead of David Copperfield during a discussion tonight... Maybe I should read Expectations again! :p

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:lol: :lol: And you've gotten into the habit of calling me old and senile. :D

Yes, I think there are several similarites to Wuthering Heights.

It doesn't say but I'm wondering if Ethan took a re-liking to Zeena once she started taking care of Mattie??


I kinda want to say "that poor Bastard, he never had a chance", but I just can't seem to find any pity for the guy.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Did she commet on it? I would like to read her thoughts on the structure. I doubt I'll have the time, but I would need to go to a research library and that's an hour a way in Manhatten for me.


I didn't get that sense. When I read it a second time I'll look for it. Perhaps you picked up Wharton's persona in the writing.

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I have several comments after reading the posts on the last two pages - wow, this thread got away from me, all of a sudden. First off in the introduction in my own book, Cythnia Griffin Wolfe, in 1922 (granted this is an older book and quote) quotes Wharton as saying:

"It was not until I wrote Ethan Frome that I suddenly felt the artisan's full control of his implements. When Ethan Frome first appeared I was severly criticized by the reviewers for what was considered the clumsy structure of the tale. I had pondered long on the structure.....but could think of no alternative which would serve as well in the given case, [and] I am still sure that its structure is not its weak point."

Then the introduction gives a few pages of biographical background about Edith Wharton which is of much interest, but too long to type. Next in the introduction, of interest, are the following passages:

"Ethan Frome is a dramatic departure from these [the early fiction] in several ways, most notably in that it does not deal with a series of mutilating social prohibitions. Instead, it addresses the lethal inclination to passivity that dwells deeply buried in every human heart. What is more, it deals with this problem from an artist's point of view, for the principal 'character' in Ethan Frome is not the man who gives the novel its title, but the storyteller who recounts his tale to us."

Then this a bit later on in the text:

"Ethan Frome begins with a narrator who has become fascinated with a local 'story' and by the man who seems central to its meaning, Ethan Frome. A sophisticated engineer, busy with his own work, this narrator would appear to have little in common with the taciturn, slow-moving cripple; nonetheless, as the narrator begins to make Ethan Frome's acquaintance, peculiar similarities emerge. Frome studied engineering himself as a young man; most surprising of all, like the narrator, who has spent the previous year on a job in Florida, Frome himself escaped the cold of Starkfield briefly and sojourned in the warmth of Florida once in the long-distant past. In 1910, the year before Ethan Frome appeared, Wharton pulished a book of short stories Tales of Men and Ghosts. In it, there are three stories that deal with the theme of the double --a character who encounters a kind of alter-ego--and in one of these stories, 'The Legend', the alter-ego is named Mr. Winterman. Now in Ethan Frome, Wharton brings her experimentation with doubles to its culmination. Ethan Frome is the narrator's double, his 'Winterman,' the person he might become if he were isolated from the busy world of human vitality and constrained to submit to the force of cold, whatever that might prove to be."

I have more to add but this is good for now.

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Originally Posted by Janine

"Ethan Frome begins with a narrator who has become fascinated with a local 'story' and by the man who seems central to its meaning, Ethan Frome. A sophisticated engineer, busy with his own work, this narrator would appear to have little in common with the taciturn, slow-moving cripple; nonetheless, as the narrator begins to make Ethan Frome's acquaintance, peculiar similarities emerge. Frome studied engineering himself as a young man; most surprising of all, like the narrator, who has spent the previous year on a job in Florida, Frome himself escaped the cold of Starkfield briefly and sojourned in the warmth of Florida once in the long-distant past. In 1910, the year before Ethan Frome appeared, Wharton pulished a book of short stories Tales of Men and Ghosts. In it, there are three stories that deal with the theme of the double --a character who encounters a kind of alter-ego--and in one of these stories, 'The Legend', the alter-ego is named Mr. Winterman. Now in Ethan Frome, Wharton brings her experimentation with doubles to its culmination. Ethan Frome is the narrator's double, his 'Winterman,' the person he might become if he were isolated from the busy world of human vitality and constrained to submit to the force of cold, whatever that might prove to be."

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Thanks Janine. I take it was the critic who wrote that. There is somethng to it, but I'm not completely sold. Yes, there is a bit of a doppelgänger between the two characters, but the narrator's character is rather undeveloped for it to be significant, at least in my book. To me he just serves as a window into Ethan. To be a real doppelgänger the minor character has to learn something of himself by viewing the character under scrutiny, like Joseph Conrad's story, "The Secret Sharer." The narrator could have learned something here about himself, but what?

I just re-read the framing preface, and I was astounded how much more signifcance it carries now. If everyone has fifteen minutes, re-read just that. There is no way to pick up what is being said without having read the entire novel first.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Thanks Janine. I take it was the critic who wrote that. There is somethng to it, but I'm not completely sold. Yes, there is a bit of a doppelgänger between the two characters, but the narrator's character is rather undeveloped for it to be significant, at least in my book. To me he just serves as a window into Ethan. To be a real doppelgänger the minor character has to learn something of himself by viewing the character under scrutiny, like Joseph Conrad's story, "The Secret Sharer." The narrator could have learned something here about himself, but what?

I just re-read the framing preface, and I was astounded how much more signifcance it carries now. If everyone has fifteen minutes, re-read just that. There is no way to pick up what is being said without having read the entire novel first.

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Virgil, Thanks for seeing my post and answering it. Took awhile to type all that. I don't think that the critic is saying doppelganger - not sure it is the same exact thought. Just that the character can relate to Ethan in a similiar way such as people sharing like interests, etc. I agree that the idea or connection is under-developed, but then again it just may be subtle.

Good, I was waiting for someone to answer my post so I could post this, which will relate to the whole introduction (framing preface) to the book:

Excerpt from Introduction, which greatly explains Wharton’s choice as to the narration and structure of the book. This passage written by Edith Wharton herself:

“The real merit of my construction seems to me to lie in a minor detail. I had to find means to bring my tragedy, in a way at once natural and picture-making, to the knowledge of its narrator. I might have sat him down before a village gossip who would have poured out the whole affair to him in a breath, but in doing this I should have been false to two essential elements of my picture: first, the deep-rooted reticence and inarticulateness of the people I was trying to draw, and secondly the effect of ‘roundness’(in the plastic sense) produced by letting their case be seen through eyes as different as those of Harmon Gow and Mrs. Ned Hale. Each of my chroniclers contributes to the narrative just so much as he or she is capable of understanding of what, to them, is a complicated and mysterious case; and only the narrator of the tale has scope enough to see it all, to resolve it back into simplicity, and to put it in its rightful place among his larger categories.”

Virgil, good idea - I am going to re-read the first part tonight.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, Thanks for seeing my post and answering it. Took awhile to type all that. I don't think that the critic is saying doppelganger - not sure it is the same exact thought. Just that the character can relate to Ethan in a similiar way such as people sharing like interests, etc. I agree that the idea or connection is under-developed, but then again it just may be subtle.

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Yes, her use of "double" is the same.

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doppelganger: in German, this word means “double-goer,” the ghostly shadow that haunts and follows its earthly counterpart; the negative or evil manifestation of what is actually on the “inside” of the haunted character. The Creature is Victor Frankenstein’s doppelganger.

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http://www.studyguide.org/lit_terms.htm
We just don't get enough of the narrator to see if there is a part of him that is like Ethan. At least I don't think so.

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“The real merit of my construction seems to me to lie in a minor detail. I had to find means to bring my tragedy, in a way at once natural and picture-making, to the knowledge of its narrator. I might have sat him down before a village gossip who would have poured out the whole affair to him in a breath, but in doing this I should have been false to two essential elements of my picture: first, the deep-rooted reticence and inarticulateness of the people I was trying to draw, and secondly the effect of ‘roundness’(in the plastic sense) produced by letting their case be seen through eyes as different as those of Harmon Gow and Mrs. Ned Hale. Each of my chroniclers contributes to the narrative just so much as he or she is capable of understanding of what, to them, is a complicated and mysterious case; and only the narrator of the tale has scope enough to see it all, to resolve it back into simplicity, and to put it in its rightful place among his larger categories.”

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Well, the very first sentence of the novel is, "I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story." Do you think Wharton is saying that she does not get part of the story from Ethan? If not, how could she know his internal feelings?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Yes, her use of "double" is the same.

http://www.studyguide.org/lit_terms.htm
We just don't get enough of the narrator to see if there is a part of him that is like Ethan. At least I don't think so.


Well, the very first sentence of the novel is, "I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story." Do you think Wharton is saying that she does not get part of the story from Ethan? If not, how could she know his internal feelings?

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Virgil,
No, I think she gets information from Ethan through the engineer. He is befriending him or having some contact with him and some bits of conversation must come out and reveal something to him about Ethan. Mostly though I think the story is surmised. No one can know all the truth or all the true feelings of Ethan or the other characters involved in this tragedy...note Wharton uses the word "tragedy". Some people are questioning that ending. This is a tragedy just like Shakespeare's plays are sometimes tragedies. In SH there is death at the end but in this novel the death is emotional death. It is a story, just like the bible - put together from different accounts and different people, colored by their ideas and beliefs. One sifts through all that to find the truth or the essense of the truth. Yes, that first sentence is highly significant.

I keep seeing the contrast between the modern world and Ethan's old world. Notice this passage from the Preface:

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Another day, on getting into my train at the Flats, I missed a volume of popular science- I think it was on some recent discoveries in bio-chemistry- which I had carried with me to read on the way. I thought no more about it till I got into the sleigh again that evening, and saw the book in Frome's hand.

"I found it after you were gone," he said.

I put the volume into my pocket and we dropped back into our usual silence; but as we began to crawl up the long hill from Corbury Flats to the Starkfield ridge I became aware in the dusk that he had turned his face to mine.

"There are things in that book that I didn't know the first word about," he said.

I wondered less at his words than at the queer note of resentment in his voice. He was evidently surprised and slightly aggrieved at his own ignorance.

"Does that sort of thing interest you?" I asked.

"It used to."

"There are one or two rather new things in the book: there have been some big strides lately in that particular line of research." I waited a moment for an answer that did not come; then I said: "If you'd like to look the book through I'd be glad to leave it with you."

He hesitated, and I had the impression that he felt himself about to yield to a stealing tide of inertia; then, "Thank you- I'll take it," he answered shortly.

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"There have been some big strides lately..." sums it up. Also the word "inertia" is so significant in describing Ethan.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I keep seeing the contrast between the modern world and Ethan's old world. Notice this passage from the Preface:



"There have been some big strides lately..." sums it up. Also the word "inertia" is so significant in describing Ethan.

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Good observation. It does sun it up. This incident now gives the narrator a little window into the true nature of Ethan. The contrast is the old younger Ethan, eager for knowledge and learning and the resigned one now who is well described by the word "inertia". This is the point that Wharton is saying to begin with, or maybe it was the critic. Oh, definite contrasts in many aspects of the book. And there are similarities as well - the cold landscape and the cold people, even the town folk - so distant and cold. What, the one woman visits the house once or twice a year? Not really too friendly. The town folk are like the "parting of the waters" when Ethan arrives in town. They shy away from him completely and he they. The man is in total alienation in any social form of life.

Yes, I agree on your earlier post about comparing to L. I sort of just meant the tone of the story, but not the ending at all. Just some similarities to me - the relationship to the landscape, but also Hardy-like and a dozen other authors - just the devise they use to set mood, in this case cold and snowy.

Ok, does "alter-ego" mean the exact same thing as "doppleganger"? I was about to look those words up in my big dictionary and compare. She said "alter-ego" and pointed out the coincidental likenesses, not that they were exact replicas of each other. It was coincidental. I will get back to you on the definitions of the two words later on.

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Originally Posted by Janine

The man is in total alienation in any social form of life.

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Yes, that may be the overarching theme of the enitre novel. Very good point.

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Yes, I agree on your earlier post about comparing to L. I sort of just meant the tone of the story, but not the ending at all. Just some similarities to me - the relationship to the landscape, but also Hardy-like and a dozen other authors - just the devise they use to set mood, in this case cold and snowy.

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Actually this does have the feel of a Hardy novel. The climax does seem Hardy-esk.

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Ok, does "alter-ego" mean the exact same thing as "doppleganger"? I was about to look those words up in my big dictionary and compare. She said "alter-ego" and pointed out the coincidental likenesses, not that they were exact replicas of each other. It was coincidental. I will get back to you on the definitions of the two words later on.

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I guess they mean similar. Doppleganger is a literary term while alter ego is a psycho babble term.

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Alter ego
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source

An alter ego (Latin, "the other I") is a second self, a second personality or persona within a person. The term is commonly used in literature analysis and comparison to describe characters who are psychologically identical.

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This is my problem with that critic. Yes, the two characters both have that egineering common detail, but what else? I don't see anything. All we know is that the narrator is fascinated with Ethan. So would almost anyone. All I see is curiosity, not a psychological double. But I could be wrong. Maybe I'm making too much of this.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I hate hearing people call Ethan a whimp. I don't see it that way.

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I am sorry to have brought up your hatred (quite a strong word, I find). I do not think there is any necessity for it if the only cause is your seeing Ethan in another way. But you are free to hate, of course :).
Having reread my post, I think I did not get all the connotations of the word wimp. However, I was not saying that Ethan was a wimp, but that compared to Zeena,

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

Ethan is presented being such a wimp :D

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, in case you are looking at him from the rather macho point of view that I was making fun of by including a ":D" at the end of the sentence.
I did not in any case want to deny Ethan personality and character, but I guess I failed to express myself properly :).
But never mind :).

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

I am sorry to have brought up your hatred (quite a strong word, I find). I do not think there is any necessity for it if the only cause is your seeing Ethan in another way. But you are free to hate, of course :).
Having reread my post, I think I did not get all the connotations of the word wimp. However, I was not saying that Ethan was a wimp, but that compared to Zeena,, in case you are looking at him from the rather macho point of view that I was making fun of by including a ":D" at the end of the sentence.
I did not in any case want to deny Ethan personality and character, but I guess I failed to express myself properly :).
But never mind :).

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Schokokeks, no problem really. I should have said "dislike" and not "hate". I don't and could not hate anyone. Other people besides you have called Ethan so or weak. To me Ethan is in a state of iertia. All the characters are. In fact it is almost as thought Ethan is co-dependent...a person needing to be needed, playing into the whole scheme of things....unable to break away phychologically. My offense to using the word 'whimp' is that it is a stereotype phrase and does not do justice in all fairness to Ethan's complicated personality. Do you see Zeena as strong? She may appear to be stronger than Ethan to you and others, but isn't she weak in her dependence on others and her mind that is trapped full of hypochondriac notions? She certainly is a non-functional human being in any social sense. She bosses and manipulated her husband, it is true. Also, she does so with Matty, but this in my eyes, does not make her strong. Bully's are not strong - they are actually weak. I see Ethan as the only one keeping thing together. It is true that Matty is inefficient, but the book did not say that she did not try to be otherwise. Always Ethan is called to be the strong one and take over. I don't see him as weak, but all are welcome to their opinion. Debating and disagreeing on the topic makes for heathy conversation on here.
No the big deal and your smilie did not make me mad. I would never get mad over a silly thing like that.

I want to contrast two paragraghs from the Preface that i think highlights this old world versus new world that I keep harping on.

The first is a description of Ethan's house:

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I saw then that the unusually forlorn and stunted look of the house was partly due to the loss of what is known in New England as the "L": that long deep-roofed adjunct usually built at right angles to the main house, and connecting it, by way of storerooms and tool-house, with the wood-shed and cow-barn. Whether because of its symbolic sense, the image it presents of a life linked with the soil, and enclosing in itself the chief sources of warmth and nourishment, or whether merely because of the consolatory thought that it enables the dwellers in that harsh climate to get to their morning's work without facing the weather, it is certain that the "L" rather than the house itself seems to be the centre, the actual hearth-stone of the New England farm. Perhaps this connection of ideas, which had often occurred to me in my rambles about Starkfield, caused me to hear a wistful note in Frome's words, and to see in the diminished dwelling the image of his own shrunken body.

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What is important is how the "the image it presents of a life linked with the soil, and enclosing in itself the chief sources of warmth and nourishment," a rather old fashion type of life. But then the very next paragragh thrusts modernity right into your face:

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"We're kinder side-tracked here now," he added, "but there was considerable passing before the railroad was carried through to the Flats." He roused the lagging bay with another twitch; then, as if the mere sight of the house had let me too deeply into his confidence for any farther pretence of reserve, he went on slowly: "I've always set down the worst of mother's trouble to that. When she got the rheumatism so bad she couldn't move around she used to sit up there and watch the road by the hour; and one year, when they was six months mending the Bettsbridge pike after the floods, and Harmon Gow had to bring his stage round this way, she picked up so that she used to get down to the gate most days to see him. But after the trains begun running nobody ever come by here to speak of, and mother never could get it through her head what had happened, and it preyed on her right along till she died."

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The railroad has come in and changed the whole relationship with the outside world, and significantly Ethan's mother cannot adapt. So too I think is the suggestion that Ethan does not adapt.

Why do i keep bringing old versus new world up? Because Ethan only knows a world of being locked into with his wife Zeena and cannot break himself away from that formula, and that ultimately causes his tragedy.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Yes, that may be the overarching theme of the enitre novel. Very good point.

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I think so. If you were so detached from society for so long a time you might be as he is. He has been shunned now by the proper folks in town, he has been left all alone in his misery. How can he have a social behavior? He has forgotten how to be sociable. Only with the introduction of the narrator (the engineer) has he found any bit of a small connection back to his past life, which was a social experince, no doubt. The engineer sees but a small window into Nathan and I am sure it is the same with Nathan to the engineer's world.

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Actually this does have the feel of a Hardy novel. The climax does seem Hardy-esk.

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Because of the tragedy and the mimicing of the coldness in the landscape and nature.

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I guess they mean similar. Doppleganger is a literary term while alter ego is a psycho babble term.

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Oh no - that dangerous word - 'psycho babble' - another stereotyped word. You do mean 'phycohological'? right:D
My dictionary says:
Doppleganger n. supposed ghostly double or counterpart of a living person.
Yes, it is a literary term. I saw a film once where the person called the Doppleganger - "my other evil self".
alterego 1.a second self. 2.an inseperable friend.
I am sure there are a lot more technical definitions of 'alterego', as well, in phschology books, etc.

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This is my problem with that critic. Yes, the two characters both have that egineering common detail, but what else? I don't see anything. All we know is that the narrator is fascinated with Ethan. So would almost anyone. All I see is curiosity, not a psychological double. But I could be wrong. Maybe I'm making too much of this.

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Virgil, I think you are taking the critic too literally. She is just saying it hints, with the similarites, that the two men have some things incommon and that there is a lesson in all this tragedy that is learned by the observance of the narrator. Here are presented two lives with with promise. Ethan, as a young man, eager for learning. Now the young man engineer, also eager for knowlege. They could someway end up the same way, if circumstance ever dictated it. How often do we see an unfortunate person and say "well that could be me"? In other words Ethan is a sort of ghost of what the narrator could become if he was in Ethans type situation. They are not identical, or anything the same. I think the narrator, in seeing and feeling what Ethan is feeling is relating to him emotionally, this being the connection. I feel of all the characters he has most of the empathy for Ethan. The similarities bind them together, so that he imagines and tells the story almost as though from Ethan's point of view.
I read the forward the critic wrote last night again...about 4 pgs. First off the novel idea was taken from a documented incident and tragedy involving a sleding accident and a tree - it is documented. Some people question the strange ending.
The critic brings up a good point about the narration. She says 'it is not true' what the narrator says. It can't be since he is making up the story. This is what I said earlier - that no one, but the real characters, can know the real truth of the story.

I had not seen the connection yesterday to "Wuthering Heights". Then it came to me last night - that also was a 'frame' novel, written or told by an outsider. I had forgotten that part of the book. In this way it is very similar, since an more impartial observer is telling the tale. Again what is really 'true' is colored by the eyes and the opinions of the narrator. He becomes the author's standin.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Oh no - that dangerous word - 'psycho babble' - another stereotyped word. You do mean 'phycohological'? right:D

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:D I mean psychobabble. ;)

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Virgil, I think you are taking the critic too literally. She is just saying it hints, with the similarites, that the two men have some things incommon and that there is a lesson in all this tragedy that is learned by the observance of the narrator. Here are presented two lives with with promise. Ethan, as a young man, eager for learning. Now the young man engineer, also eager for knowlege. They could someway end up the same way, if circumstance ever dictated it. How often do we see an unfortunate person and say "well that could be me"? In other words Ethan is a sort of ghost of what the narrator could become if he was in Ethans type situation.

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OK, I'll buy that.

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I read the forward the critic wrote last night again...about 4 pgs. First off the novel idea was taken from a documented incident and tragedy involving a sleding accident and a tree - it is documented. Some people question the strange ending.

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Wow, thanks. I don't know if that makes it a better novel or not, but certainly good to know.

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The critic brings up a good point about the narration. She says 'it is not true' what the narrator says. It can't be since he is making up the story. This is what I said earlier - that no one, but the real characters, can know the real truth of the story.

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Yes, I had that thought too, but then doesn't it trivialize the story? What does it wind up saying? For an unreliable narrator to work, say like Ford Maddox Ford's The Good Soldier (a great novel by the way which i've wanted to read again), the narrator has to be integral with the narrative, not just a window to the action. If we found out that the narrator was unreliable, then why should I care? He's making the whole thing up.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I want to contrast two paragraghs from the Preface that i think highlights this old world versus new world that I keep harping on.

The first is a description of Ethan's house:

What is important is how the "the image it presents of a life linked with the soil, and enclosing in itself the chief sources of warmth and nourishment," a rather old fashion type of life. But then the very next paragragh thrusts modernity right into your face:

The railroad has come in and changed the whole relationship with the outside world, and significantly Ethan's mother cannot adapt. So too I think is the suggestion that Ethan does not adapt.

Why do i keep bringing old versus new world up? Because Ethan only knows a world of being locked into with his wife Zeena and cannot break himself away from that formula, and that ultimately causes his tragedy.

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I just saw this as I was posting mine. It is very good to point out these passages. Last night I read something about the author and the themes she presents in her novels. This exact changing of the times is one of them. She lived when the electric light was invented and she had her house completely wired for it. However, she had a keen interest in progress and the future, the railroad being one very significant symbol of progress,....yet her own life early on was quite sad, she apparently was the third of 3 children born, unexpected and apparently shunned by the cold mother. He father was not much better at nurturing her. Later in life she would actually sicken to cross the threshold of her mother's house. I believe she uses 'threshold' as a sort of symbol, often in ET. Not until she wrote novels did she really write herself into phycological health. In Wharton's world there were two very contrasting worlds - one of the painful past - enertia - and one of going beyond it - action. Back in her day, to work, being a woman, was unheard of. She fought through convention to write her novels, as many woman did.
Therefore her two worlds were very different. In the novel that first paragraph about the L shape of the house being changed is highly significant. The last line is wonderful and sums up the whole idea of the altered house mimicing the altered lives of it's inhabitants and especially the broken body of Frome, himself. Great to point this out, Virgil. The introduction was a very important part of the book and some may overlook it's significance.
I am going to check out other biographies of Wharton on this site and online.

Just posted another as you posted, Janine, so you may have missed another.

Hi Mr.Psychobabble, or should I call you Pscho for short? :lol:

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Yes, I had that thought too, but then doesn't it trivialize the story? What does it wind up saying? For an unreliable narrator to work, say like Ford Maddox Ford's The Good Soldier (a great novel by the way which i've wanted to read again), the narrator has to be integral with the narrative, not just a window to the action. If we found out that the narrator was unreliable, then why should I care? He's making the whole thing up.

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Virgil, This is not a true story - it is fiction. All fiction could be said to be contrived. Is "Wuthering Heights" any less grand (trivial) since the outsider is telling the tale? That too is fiction and made up. If the author directly tells a tale, it is also from the eyes of the author and thus colored by his or her opinions, ideas, etc. Of course, it does not trivialize the story. Don't lose perspective - all stories if not fact, are ficticious. Even 'fact' is colored by the teller's own opinions, prejudices, ideas, etc.
That book sounds good - "The Good Soldier" - I somehow heard of it. Wasn't Ford Maddox Ford a friend (at least, at one time) to Lawrence?

No, I think I saw them all and answered them now.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Hi Mr.Psychobabble, or should I call you Pscho for short? :lol:

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:p I guess I deserve it. Well, I am mad, bad, and dangerous to know. :lol:

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Virgil, This is not a true story - it is fiction. All fiction could be said to be contrived.

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Well, of course all fiction is not true, but internal to the work a work of fiction must hold the illusion that what is passing before the reader is true. That is why so many novels start out with the ruse that they found these notes on a beach or some such thing. To admit that what is happening didn't happen and was made up is to break a bond with the reader. Now certain modern works may play with this notion but it usually has a surreal theme, and that is not here. An unreliable narrator needs to be part of the action, and his unreliability is part of the theme of the novel, like the one I mentioned.

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Is "Wuthering Heights" any less grand (trivial) since the outsider is telling the tale?

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The reason WH has the frame structure is to ground the novel in reality. Some of the events are supernatural, so the placid down to earth character that frames the narrative serves as an eyewitness. It is to make the supernatural elements more believable, like I mention in the paragraph above.

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That too is fiction and made up. If the author directly tells a tale, it is also from the eyes of the author and thus colored by his or her opinions, ideas, etc. Of course, it does not trivialize the story. Don't lose perspective - all stories if not fact, are ficticious. Even 'fact' is colored by the teller's own opinions, prejudices, ideas, etc.

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So why would Wharton have the narrator be unreliable? For what purpose?

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That book sounds good - "The Good Soldier" - I somehow heard of it. Wasn't Ford Maddox Ford a friend (at least, at one time) to Lawrence?

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Yes, I believe Ford gave Lawrence his publishing start. He saw great talent in him. The Good Soldier, which has nothing to do with war, is a great novel. Here's what Wiki says:

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The Good Soldier is a 1915 novel by English novelist and editor Ford Madox Ford. It is set just before World War I and chronicles the tragedies of the lives of two seemingly perfect couples. The novel is told using a series of flashbacks in non-chronological order, a literary technique pioneered by Ford. The novel was loosely based on two incidents of adultery and on Ford's messy personal life.

The Good Soldier is narrated by the character John Dowell, half of one of the couples whose dissolving relationships form the subject of the novel. Dowell tells the stories of those dissolutions as well as the deaths of three characters and the madness of a fourth, in a rambling, non-chronological fashion that leaves gaps for the reader to fill.

The novel opens with the famous line, “This is the saddest story I have ever heard.” Dowell explains that for nine years he, his wife Florence and their friends Captain Edward Ashburnham (the “good soldier” of the book’s title) and his wife Leonora had an ostensibly normal friendship while Edward and Florence sought treatment for their heart ailments at a spa in Nauheim, Germany.

As it turns out, nothing in the relationships or in the characters is as it first seems. Florence’s heart ailment is a fiction she perpetrated on John to force them to stay in Europe so that she could continue her affair with an American thug named Jimmy. Edward and Leonora have a loveless, imbalanced marriage broken by his constant infidelities (both of body and heart) and Leonora’s attempts to control Edward’s affairs (both financial and romantic). Dowell is a fool and is coming to realize how much of a fool he is, as Florence and Edward had an affair under his nose for nine years without John knowing until Florence was dead.

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You can read more here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Soldier. Finely written prose too.

Virgil, be patient. I have a lot of questions about what you wrote in this last post. I can't do it now - not enough time and my response my get complicated. I hve an appointment and will be on later this evening to respond to your post.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, of course when she goes away for the night and leaves them alone in the house, she tries to set them up so she can catch them at something indescent or irregular.

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I am not sure if Zeena's aim was to 'set them up' when she left them alone for the night. I agree with you that she was aware that Ethan and Mattie had feelings for each other but her trip was mainly to get the support of her family and get rid of Mattie by hiring a new maid, in my opinion. Even before she found out about the broken dish, she had made up her mind to send Mattie away and hired the girl.

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

if he could shake off his traditional views (the husband has to provide for the wife etc) and free himself from these obligations he'd be able to leave Zeena.
also, if he were less realistic/materialistic he and Mattie could go West anyway. they'd be destitute tramps but at least they'd be together.
the only way of living he knows is to live as a married man and hard-working farmer.

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I am not even sure if Ethan means to elope with Mattie at all. He strikes me more of a Walter Mitty-like character; he, probably owing to his monotonous and frustrating life with Zeena, simply 'daydreams' about having a life with Mattie as an 'outlet'. If Zeena had not actively sought a way to send Mattie away, I wonder if he would ever seriously consider the elopment. He would have been happy living with those two women as they were had Zeena not changed the things.

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Originally Posted by Janine

To me Ethan is in a state of iertia.

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I do agree with this statement; however, my interpretation of it is somewhat different. Ethan is never willing to do anything to upset the status quo. Come crunch time, both Zeena and Mattie take action; Zeena goes to seek the help of her relatives to find a maid/send Mattie away and fight for her husband and marriage. Mattie is the one who proposes to the deadly slide down the hill. Ethan, on the other hand, simply goes along with these suggestions whether he agrees or really wants them or not. Despite his complaints about Zeena, he never really puts up a fight. Despite his claims of affection towards Mattie, he does not think of what would happen to her; he simply hopes that Mattie would live with them forever, denying her the chance to have a family etc. Whether we like them or agree with their actions is a different story but both women in Ethan life are strong enough to do what they believe is right.

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Originally Posted by Papayahed

I kinda want to say "that poor Bastard, he never had a chance", but I just can't seem to find any pity for the guy.

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Ditto!

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I am not sure if Zeena's aim was to 'set them up' when she left them alone for the night. I agree with you that she was aware that Ethan and Mattie had feelings for each other but her trip was mainly to get the support of her family and get rid of Mattie by hiring a new maid, in my opinion. Even before she found out about the broken dish, she had made up her mind to send Mattie away and hired the girl.

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Scher, thanks for reading my post. I agree that it is true that Zeena had her mind made up to send Mattie away. It just was rather odd that she would deliberately leave them alone in the house together. It makes me suspicious that she was conniving to get them caught so her excuse to dismiss Mattie would be even stronger and more justified. I don't imagine she pictured any real impropiety but maybe it worked out just as she planned with something going amiss so she had full justification to condemn the girl. The pickle dish was just that device to show how awful she felt Mattie was - didn't she lash out at her saying she was evil or no good, like the broken dish was evidence of it. Zeena had a mind that did not work as a normal mind would - twisted I would call it. Who knows why a woman would leave a young girl alone with her husband all night - almost like she invited tragedy or a downfall.

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I am not even sure if Ethan means to elope with Mattie at all. He strikes me more of a Walter Mitty-like character; he, probably owing to his monotonous and frustrating life with Zeena, simply 'daydreams' about having a life with Mattie as an 'outlet'. If Zeena had not actively sought a way to send Mattie away, I wonder if he would ever seriously consider the elopment. He would have been happy living with those two women as they were had Zeena not changed the things.

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Good points here, Scher, I agree - he daydreams a lot and seems satisfied in the comfort of those daydreams requiring no action at all on his part.

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I do agree with this statement; however, my interpretation of it is somewhat different. Ethan is never willing to do anything to upset the status quo. Come crunch time, both Zeena and Mattie take action; Zeena goes to seek the help of her relatives to find a maid/send Mattie away and fight for her husband and marriage. Mattie is the one who proposes to the deadly slide down the hill. Ethan, on the other hand, simply goes along with these suggestions whether he agrees or really wants them or not. Despite his complaints about Zeena, he never really puts up a fight. Despite his claims of affection towards Mattie, he does not think of what would happen to her; he simply hopes that Mattie would live with them forever, denying her the chance to have a family etc. Whether we like them or agree with their actions is a different story but both women in Ethan life are strong enough to do what they believe is right. Ditto!

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Scher, basically we agree on all of this or the general idea of it. That is good enough for me. I like the way you have put it in writing and expression. The only part I disagree about is if the woman are actually strong characters. I don't see them such but maybe they are. I see Zeena as lost in her world of imaginary illnesses and weak in the mind and I see Mattie as desperate in her situation and having no other way out. I suppose you are correct in one way - they are both able to act whereas Ethan is as frozen as the landscape around him. But that "action" does not convince me of their strength.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I do agree with this statement; however, my interpretation of it is somewhat different. Ethan is never willing to do anything to upset the status quo. Come crunch time, both Zeena and Mattie take action; Zeena goes to seek the help of her relatives to find a maid/send Mattie away and fight for her husband and marriage. Mattie is the one who proposes to the deadly slide down the hill. Ethan, on the other hand, simply goes along with these suggestions whether he agrees or really wants them or not. Despite his complaints about Zeena, he never really puts up a fight. Despite his claims of affection towards Mattie, he does not think of what would happen to her; he simply hopes that Mattie would live with them forever, denying her the chance to have a family etc. Whether we like them or agree with their actions is a different story but both women in Ethan life are strong enough to do what they believe is right.Ditto!

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I agree that it was within Ethan to break out of his condition, but you know I feel for him. To leave one's wife was not something to do lightly. He was finacially strapped and he would have condemned his wife to destitution. He was torn between duty and passion. He was trapped. He was living in a code of provincial farm life, an old world construct.

Perhaps this is the place to ask this. This novel was written by a female novelist, and so one needs to ask, does this present feminist themes? Woman writers of this period present female characters also trapped in their social condition as Ethan. I'm thinking of Kate Chopin, Charlotte Bronte, George Eliot, Charlotte Perkins Gilman. But Wharton has almost the inverse, a male trapped by social convention, unexpressible passion, and domestic drudgery. So is Wharton being anti-feminist? If we have sympathy for those female characters of the other women writers, why shouldn't we have sympathy for Ethan?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I agree that it was within Ethan to break out of his condition, but you know I feel for him. To leave one's wife was not something to do lightly. He was finacially strapped and he would have condemned his wife to destitution. He was torn between duty and passion. He was trapped. He was living in a code of provincial farm life, an old world construct.

Perhaps this is the place to ask this. This novel was written by a female novelist, and so one needs to ask, does this present feminist themes? Woman writers of this period present female characters also trapped in their social condition as Ethan. I'm thinking of Kate Chopin, Charlotte Bronte, George Eliot, Charlotte Perkins Gilman. But Wharton has almost the inverse, a male trapped by social convention, unexpressible passion, and domestic drudgery. So is Wharton being anti-feminist? If we have sympathy for those female characters of the other women writers, why shouldn't we have sympathy for Ethan?

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Virgil, for some reason I woke up from my drowsy feeling and decided to answer this post of yours.

First paragraph - I also feel much empathy for Ethan. I feel as you do that he was trapped, especially in the time he lived. I could not have expressed it so well, but it is exactly how I feel about his situation and why he did not act. You said it so well.

Second paragraph - I think that most of Wharton's work would be considered sympathetic to the female. If you look at the novel "Age of Innocense" you certainly feel badly for the female involved in the complicated plots. In this case, society has trapped the female in conventions and situations that lead to her downfall or unhappiness. In "The House of Mirth" it is the somewhat the same. But Edith Wharton herself said that "Ethan Frome" was a departure from those novels. Perhaps in this EF she relates, not so much to the female characters, as to the male protaganist, Ethan. So I do not know if it is a true feminist issue here. Hope others give their opinions on this idea.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Do you see Zeena as strong?

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No. As with Ethan, I was talking about appearances. That, after all, is one of the reasons why, instead of studying and observing a hypochondriac in a clinic, I am reading a fictional work, where somebody presents her in a certain way and encourages me to set her in relation to the other characters. In my eyes, the story would be far less interesting if Ethan was presented as bossy as his wife, or Zeena presented as inert as Ethan.


Very interesting how opinions in the poll above are distributed almost equally between the last three choices. Not a black-and-white piece of literature at all :).

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Originally Posted by Janine

Second paragraph - I think that most of Wharton's work would be considered sympathetic to the female. If you look at the novel "Age of Innocense" you certainly feel badly for the female involved in the complicated plots. In this case, society has trapped the female in conventions and situations that lead to her downfall or unhappiness. In "The House of Mirth" it is the somewhat the same. But Edith Wharton herself said that "Ethan Frome" was a departure from those novels. Perhaps in this EF she relates, not so much to the female characters, as to the male protaganist, Ethan. So I do not know if it is a true feminist issue here. Hope others give their opinions on this idea.

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This is my first Wharton reading. So she is more feminist in her other works? That is interesting. Here I find so much understanding for the male social condition, which contrary to what femnist would love to have you think was no perfect existence. Hard labor, financial and family repsonsibility, and much isolation was the more common existence for most men. I'll answer my own question; while I don't see this as anti-feminist in the sesne that Wharton is arguing against women's problems, but I do see it as undermining the notion that men had all the power.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I am not sure if Zeena's aim was to 'set them up' when she left them alone for the night. I agree with you that she was aware that Ethan and Mattie had feelings for each other but her trip was mainly to get the support of her family and get rid of Mattie by hiring a new maid, in my opinion. Even before she found out about the broken dish, she had made up her mind to send Mattie away and hired the girl. I am not even sure if Ethan means to elope with Mattie at all. He strikes me more of a Walter Mitty-like character; he, probably owing to his monotonous and frustrating life with Zeena, simply 'daydreams' about having a life with Mattie as an 'outlet'. If Zeena had not actively sought a way to send Mattie away, I wonder if he would ever seriously consider the elopment. He would have been happy living with those two women as they were had Zeena not changed the things.

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yep you're right. i think he only becomes aware of how much he likes Mattie when Zeena is about to send her away.
i think that's a very realistic portrayal. lots of men don't seem to be aware of their own feelings till it's too late in one way or another

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Originally Posted by Virgil

This is my first Wharton reading. So she is more feminist in her other works? That is interesting. Here I find so much understanding for the male social condition, which contrary to what femnist would love to have you think was no perfect existence. Hard labor, financial and family repsonsibility, and much isolation was the more common existence for most men. I'll answer my own question; while I don't see this as anti-feminist in the sesne that Wharton is arguing against women's problems, but I do see it as undermining the notion that men had all the power.

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hehe, ranting about feminism again, are we?
i think the branch of feminism i prefer would perfectly agree with you on most of these points

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

i think that's a very realistic portrayal. lots of men don't seem to be aware of their own feelings till it's too late in one way or another

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:confused: Are you saying that it only happens to men? Women don't mistaken their feelings? Boy do I have life experiences to prove that wrong. ;)

hehe, you're probably right. i'm a mean prejudiced feminist witch :)

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

No. As with Ethan, I was talking about appearances. That, after all, is one of the reasons why, instead of studying and observing a hypochondriac in a clinic, I am reading a fictional work, where somebody presents her in a certain way and encourages me to set her in relation to the other characters. In my eyes, the story would be far less interesting if Ethan was presented as bossy as his wife, or Zeena presented as inert as Ethan.

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ok, Schokokeks, I agree with this. I see your point. So emotionally she might not be strong but she projects her will strongly. Yes, now I quite agree and also that the story would be totally dull if Ethan were presented the same as Zeena - bossy. No, the three characters have distinctive differences in personalities, even though, ironically, at the end it is the two women are in alignment with each other and Ethan is now totally outside their realm. Truly isolated is what he becomes.

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Very interesting how opinions in the poll above are distributed almost equally between the last three choices. Not a black-and-white piece of literature at all :).

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I agree - absolutely not a black-and-white piece of literature. Most "good" literature is not b/w. One has to contemplate it and think on it and debate it. This is precisely why EF is such a great novel and one that has lasted the test of time.

Virgil, feminism again? :lol: I agree somewhat with Sleepwitch.
I don't know, does it have that much bearing on the story, or analysis? You can read about Wharton's views, etc. in the biography on this site or on Wikipedia. Then let us know what if it mentions this idea. Don't quote me on the other novels. Basically I have not read them - only know the plots from film adaptations. Women and men are socially abused in stories all the time. I can give many an example of men being just as abused or neglected/ shunned.