homeschooling

I fully agree with every single syllable written by Pensive.

Isn't it funny how all (or most) people here who believe in homeschooling are from the USA? It never ceases to amaze me how the USA-mentality is completely different from what I'm used to and mostly impossible for me to comprehend.

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Originally Posted by andave_ya

As for discussing things with people your age, sometimes you don't want to. All the girls my age are interested in boys, makeup, breakups and other stuff that I'm not interested in. Whenever I try to speak to them I end up being a sounding board for all their fears, regrets, tears, and jokes that aren't even funny. They aren't interested in anything vaguely philosophical or even smacking of academic stuff. At the most I'll be able to talk to them about movies. That's all well and good, but even Johnny Depp gets boring after a while. I don't want to talk about boys, I'm fifteen, I don't want to get romantically attached until after college and I have never been romantic with anyone in my entire life!

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Well, maybe you are like that because you have never related with people your age? And I don't mean that you should be the same as them, but I think that this is giving you a reason not to ever mingle with people who are different from you. As a teenager, I used to be very selective, in a way I understand some of your concerns... when I was about 12 I didn't care about talking of boys and clothes, I did care about books and later on music, and that's why I completely dismissed (?) the group of people I grew up with - we had really little in common. Then I went to high school and that's where I made my long-lasting friends, because many of us shared similar interests, views, experiences (not all of us, there were the slutty girls I had nothing in common with, but a lot of people were like me, with no other friends to share things with, and we became close and in some cases still are). So I know where you are coming from to some extent, and maybe later in life it will change, as it is different for me now - just last night I was thinking of how my American friend is different from me in her ways and values, she's addicted to shopping and clothes since she was 9 and I wouldnt even care what I was wearing till I was 17, she had the typical teenage 'romance' experiences while I've never been 'romantically attached', as you put it, till I was 20... Yet, I had a pleasant experience at school. I understand this can go either way and school was where I was fitting, while the rest of society wasn't. I didn't like to go out, at Uni I did study on Sundays out of boredom and overhear on Mondays conversations about amazing weekends other people had... I'm not sure where I'm heading to, but maybe what I want to say is that school doesn't forbid you to be yourself and get bored of Johnny Depp (mmmm Johnny Depp :D) if you're willing to fight for that. This way you have it more comfortable, but maybe you're not developing the skills to defend your personality from peer pressure etc. As Pensy said, it makes me wonder how you'll cope with people and things in your adult life.
And of course I don't mean to judge you and this 'you' can be any person, all I know is what you said here so I'm certainly not drawing conclusions or judgements, juts imagining scenarios to prove my opinion...

Ehy, can I ask you, do you study a foreign language in your programme? How is language learning dealt with in general in homeschooling, assuming not all parents are fluent in another language?

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But, real life does not need to be unpleasant. Yes, there are some unpleasant things in this world, but why purposefully include more unpleasant experiences in your life? This doesn't make sense. More good things and pleasant experiences are what we need!

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Well I personally prefer to be prepared for the worst :D Which is, for me, the bubble we are talking about, not just a social bubble which, as you all say and I guess I can agree, is not always the case. But a bubble of protection from reality.

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What's wrong with sleeping until 10am everyday? Sleep is very important!
One of the greatest things about homeschooling is that you can make your own schedule. That could include sleeping until 10am. Learning doesn't start at 8am and end at 3pm. Learning can happen any time/ all the time!

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Then let's hope that your homeschooled-sleeping-till-10 child will find a job that starts at 11 every day, because they might not like to get used to the idea of a real-world kind of discipline... (I'm lazy enough being a University student, when I have to go to work early I feel it's a tragedy and wonder how I did 6 days a week when I used to go to school :D :lol:)

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Also, I highly disagree with you when you say that children won't discipline themselves. I think this underestimates children/ youth in general. I know lots of children who discipline themselves quite well. It's amazing what children can do if they are only given the opportunity and trust.

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I do underestimate youth :D I also base this on myself, and I know that discipline is my first enemy ;)

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You probably would never have to ask someone to teach you what 2+2 is because you would probably figure it out yourself, naturally. Hmm..2 pieces of chocolate + 2 pieces of chocolate = 4 yummy!:lol:

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I'm still not sure I would know that's called 'four' ;) :D

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Anyhow, at least here in the USA, school systems brainwash kids into thinking Christopher Columbus was some kind of hero who discovered the USA. Like, no one else had figured that out before... Plus, the school system suppresses the fact that Christopher Columbus raped, killed, and kidnapped natives. For more info see James W. Loewen's Lies My Teacher Told Me About Christopher Columbus: What Your History Books Got Wrong and Rethinking Schools' Rethinking Columbus.

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Pardon me the very rude joke, but no one can be an hero for having discovered "the USA". And to my knowledge he discovered a continent called America, and to be really fussy the USA certainly didn't exist back then. My pendaticness (?) aside, I was never taught nor told that he killed and raped, though I know that all those who subsequently conquered America did, so why not him. We don't spend a substantial amount of time on him though, and what is also funny is that in Italy we're told he was Italian, in Spain they're told he was Spanish or anyway that it's Spain's merit because it was Spain that gave him the ships... but I digress.
I don't believe all I'm told, so what makes your sources more believable than those used at school? The fact that they're not officially used? Any school student can go out of school and deepen his/her knowledge by reading the book you recommend or others. Not many do, of course, and those who do are considered nerds for sure. I was also thinking how funny it is how you consider school so bad while I'm used to seeing kids who like school as some kind of 'nerds', I mean you know, the clever kid that only likes to study as opposed to the lazy other ones...

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Originally Posted by andave_ya

Public schools want to brainwash people into believing evolution without even telling them of creationist viewpoint. Public schools don't want people to believe in God because the propaganda is that man is self-sufficient, all-wise and all-powerful. All I need to do is look at history to see for myself that it is otherwise.

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History and faith are two different things. Anyway this is another discussion... As for what is taught at school, couldn't for example you go to school and listen to what is told there, and be religious at home? I don't know, I can't see a school totally deprived of slight religious concepts since (unfortunately) in my country, despite being officially secular, religion still pervades and influences way too many aspects of society and politics (though maybe it's less prevalent in schools now that we have so many kids from other cultures/religions)... we had one hour of religious education per week, which wasn't compulsory so if someone didn't want to hear it they could opt out (it's still like that). I did came home once asking my mum what really happened, did we evolve from monkeys or did God created us? She gave me her explanation...

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I think the main problem is that people see homeschoolers as unstylish lazy slobs who don't care anything about education. Please, please, dig underneath that surface and find the dedicated people.

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I have the opposite idea, since I first heard of this concept I imagined homeschoolers as bookworms that spend all their time studying and being intellectual instead of doing things appropriate for their age... like throwing in the occasional swearing to feel 'adult' and being generally silly.

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Originally Posted by Koa

Isn't it funny how all (or most) people here who believe in homeschooling are from the USA? It never ceases to amaze me how the USA-mentality is completely different from what I'm used to and mostly impossible for me to comprehend.

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Yeah, it amazes me too. And I think it comes down to we in the US don't trust and want to rely on the government for things. It sucks away our freedom. We feel that when we can do it ourselves, we pefer to.

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Originally Posted by Koa

Ehy, can I ask you, do you study a foreign language in your programme? How is language learning dealt with in general in homeschooling, assuming not all parents are fluent in another language?

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Do you necessarily have to, if English is your first language ? :D

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Originally Posted by juketay

You are right Pensive. In order for children to become assimilated into society properly, it is important to have a variety of experiences and be exposed to differing opinions and views. This enables them when they are an adult to think for themselves and form their own opinions. In a way this is exactly what public education does not promote; public education is for the lowest common denominator and influencing all of the students to share the same views ("group-think") and thought-control through various means, including peer-pressure. (If you want more you can pm me)
Go to your local public school, walk down the hallways and see what behaviors you would want your child to emulate.

In the public school system, children are segregated by age, and have very little interaction with other adults (except for their teachers). This environment only promotes alienation from different age groups, especially adults. This is beginning to look like the real socialization trouble.

Homeschooling in no way “alienates you from society”. The “real world” is all around us; through the TV, newspaper, grocery store, driving down the street, gas station and weekend outings. Just because you homeschool doesn’t mean that you live in a bubble.

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Okay, the image you give of pubic schools doesn't seem very pleasant, but here, the problem lies with "schools". If only good conditions would be provided there, things would be better. Schooling in an institution should be made compulsary because it makes sure that a child is getting education. I don't know whether you will ever understand it or not, but with the culture like that in my country, what's necessary is education and here the concept of homeschooling means the child wouldn't be taught much about Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Maths (in most cases). Wouldn't it be better if the Government makes this necessary for children to go to schools? Many children in my country don't have telivisions, newspapers, computers, and don't have proper access to books. On the other hand, if they go to a public school, they have a chance of getting a scholarship, and books for free if they give good result. And remember the geography and history of your school is not easy to learn without having books/proper guidance.

And now you will say that children can have their parents teaching them but what should they do if their parents don't even know how to write down their names? And this is the condition in most of the developing countries. There are even some parents who think "education" would take their children nowhere. If only government set school compulsary, parents will have to send their children to schools.

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Originally Posted by andave_ya

No, they can like whatever they please and I don't have to like it, but then, don't make me talk to them. It's not for lack of trying that I say this, Pensive, I KNOW people like that and seriously, I'd rather watch Barney the purple dinosaur.

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Who says you have to have long friendly conversations with them? You just have to learn to live with them, bear the sight of them without resenting them.

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Furthermore, I don't have to be influenced, I am influenced regardless. Even though I like to think I am beyond it, I'm not. As I said in an earlier post, I've started taking college courses where people curse every other word and not think anything of it. Coming from a Christian background, every word was like an electric shock but now I find the words creeping into my thoughts and I find that seriously alarming.

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Weren't you yourself critisizing the girls you wear make-up? If you have a right to critisize, then they do have it as well. :)

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Differences in opinion? I don't care if people believe that God doesn't exist as long as they don't try to make me believe He doesn't. It isn't differences of opinion, it's differences in aspects of faith. Public schools want to brainwash people into believing evolution without even telling them of creationist viewpoint. Public schools don't want people to believe in God because the propaganda is that man is self-sufficient, all-wise and all-powerful. All I need to do is look at history to see for myself that it is otherwise.

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I am sorry for that, didn't know public schools at your place were like that. In my area, they are vice-versa as a matter of fact.

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And, you're assuming my mom is untrained. My Mom had a thorough education through college in Lebanon. She was computer programmer, trained in logic. When one has mastered logic, other stuff isn't difficult to master.

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Oh my goodness, why would I assume your mother is trained or untrained? It doesn't matter, really. What matters is that every child doesn't have a trained mother. Neither do they have uncles who are professors of Algebra. :)

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I think the main problem is that people see homeschoolers as unstylish lazy slobs who don't care anything about education. Please, please, dig underneath that surface and find the dedicated people. Visit

www.hslda.org

for more information.

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I never saw homeschoolers as unstylish lazy slobs or something like that. Nor do have I any reasons to think so. My reason to why "schooling should be made compulsary" has nothing to do with this. I have explained this in the very start of this post.

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Competition. Why do I need competition if I already want to learn?

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Wouldn't it be easier for you to learn with a group of students who "have interest in studies"?

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Real life experiences. I don't live in a bubble. I take classes outside my homeschool courses. I go on field trips. I go on the internet. I take vacations. I go to concerts. I go shopping. I take road trips. I visit friends. I read the newspaper. I watch TV. I go to the movies.
The only difference is that I select what I want to see, and that doesn't include young people swearing themselves blue and doing all sorts of unpleasant stuff.

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Good for you. Being an idealist can be good, and can't be other times. You don't often come across good people in life: and afterwards you have to cope with people swearing themselves blue and doing all sorts of unpleasant stuff. I wouldn't like to go deep into that argument, for the sake of being on the topic. But even if you disagree with me here, you might agree that every child can't afford these road trips, newspapers and tv, and that's why I think schooling should be made compulsary.

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And finally, Pensive, I don't think I'm particularly amazing. I understand a multitude of stuff but the only place I can actually be "brilliant" is when I am speaking of obscure literary stuff that nobody cares about.:D

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When did I say you thought you were amazing? All I meant was we all stick to our opinions, otherwise why would we be here giving our opinions like this? Even if we are confused between our opinions, we do have this thought that "our opinions matter too". :D

And people do care about literary stuff, at least here in this forum. :)

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My Mom understood everything perfectly, and if that didn't work, my uncle is an algebra teacher. The only problem was with myself. It took me longer to comprehend the material.

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As I already mentioned, everyone doesn't have an uncle who is an algebra professor or a mother who understand everything perfectly.

I am sorry for having repeated things so many times, but couldn't restrain myself from that.

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Originally Posted by Koa

I fully agree with every single syllable written by Pensive.

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Thank you kindly. :lol:

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Well, maybe you are like that because you have never related with people your age? And I don't mean that you should be the same as them, but I think that this is giving you a reason not to ever mingle with people who are different from you

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My Mom felt the same way a year or so ago and always tried to push me to go talk to other girls with different interests. I tried and it just didn't work. In order for us to click, I had to change. That didn't sound appealing, but for the sake of fitting in I tried. Joining Girl Scouts, I tried to laugh and giggle without having something to laugh at. I tried to be knowledgeable about fashion. And still, whenever I said something there would be an embarrassed silence. It wasn't the girls fault that I didn't fit in; they did their best to make me feel comfortable. But it just didn't work. I left and went back to my normal self and didn't burden them with a wallflower.

I've got tons more to say but I've got to go to class. Talk to you later.:)

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Originally Posted by andave_ya

Thank you kindly. :lol:

My Mom felt the same way a year or so ago and always tried to push me to go talk to other girls with different interests. I tried and it just didn't work. In order for us to click, I had to change. That didn't sound appealing, but for the sake of fitting in I tried. Joining Girl Scouts, I tried to laugh and giggle without having something to laugh at. I tried to be knowledgeable about fashion. And still, whenever I said something there would be an embarrassed silence. It wasn't the girls fault that I didn't fit in; they did their best to make me feel comfortable. But it just didn't work. I left and went back to my normal self and didn't burden them with a wallflower.

I've got tons more to say but I've got to go to class. Talk to you later.:)

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Oh, andave-ya, you don't have to be what you are not or there is no need to pretend. Just be the way you are. I am sure people would accept you that way. Just be careful while critisizing someone. Girls of fourteen and fifteen don't usually like negative comments on their make-up.

I myself don't approve of a few things my classmates do (like make-up) but that's their life. There are good things in them as well which puts their penchant for make-up aside. :)

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Okay, the image you give of pubic schools doesn't seem very pleasant, but here, the problem lies with "schools". If only good conditions would be provided there, things would be better. Schooling in an institution should be made compulsary because it makes sure that a child is getting education. .

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I believe there are tests that the kids have to pass that are independent of their schooling. Yes if only the schools were perfect. Some are good and some aren't. That's why the parent has to make a decision.

You also said what if the parent doesn't know how to write their name. I think this only works with parents who are college educated. Like I said, a lot of the home schoolers that I've known have moms that are teachers.

I can understand how the conditions in your country might not make this desirable. Actually if one were in a very good public school system here, then it would not be desirable here too. But schools vary, teachers vary, like all human beings. A parent has to assess.

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Okay, the image you give of pubic schools doesn't seem very pleasant, but here, the problem lies with "schools". If only good conditions would be provided there, things would be better. Schooling in an institution should be made compulsary because it makes sure that a child is getting education. I don't know whether you will ever understand it or not, but with the culture like that in my country, what's necessary is education and here the concept of homeschooling means the child wouldn't be taught much about Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Maths (in most cases). Wouldn't it be better if the Government makes this necessary for children to go to schools? Many children in my country don't have telivisions, newspapers, computers, and don't have proper access to books. On the other hand, if they go to a public school, they have a chance of getting a scholarship, and books for free if they give good result. And remember the geography and history of your school is not easy to learn without having books/proper guidance.

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Just for clarification, there is a big difference between "homeschooling" and "unschooling"
Homeschooling in the US (in my state) require 'actual learning' that they check on. And if the parents don't wan't to report directy to the state, then they can join an umbrella group.

I'm back. :)

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I'm not sure where I'm heading to, but maybe what I want to say is that school doesn't forbid you to be yourself and get bored of Johnny Depp (mmmm Johnny Depp ) if you're willing to fight for that.

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Why do I have to fight for it? Do I not have the right to be myself without any opposition from people who don't like who I am? As a homeschooler I don't have to fight for it because people will recognize that individuality is good.

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This way you have it more comfortable, but maybe you're not developing the skills to defend your personality from peer pressure etc

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No offense, but what exactly am I doing now? offending my personality?
Furthermore, I'm still here defending what I agree with to the best of my ability. You want me to change my views on homeschooling. Is this not considered peer pressure?

And furthermore, you are yourselves a product of your schooling. Most if not all the people posting from outside the USA have never heard of homeschooling but have already decided that it is unhealthy without even looking at the benefits of it.

I know what I believe in but I'll listen to what you have to say.

Again I say this not to offend but to prove my point. It seems to me that we're just going through the same loopholes -socialization and teaching- and I'm just saying the same thing over again.

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Ehy, can I ask you, do you study a foreign language in your programme? How is language learning dealt with in general in homeschooling, assuming not all parents are fluent in another language?

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Yes, I'm sorry, I forgot to mention it. My mother teaches me and my sister Arabic because we hail from the Middle East. Here in the States, a foreign language isn't required until high school, so if the parents don't know a language the student can take college courses, online courses....we're not just limited to the curriculum.

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Well I personally prefer to be prepared for the worst Which is, for me, the bubble we are talking about, not just a social bubble which, as you all say and I guess I can agree, is not always the case. But a bubble of protection from reality.

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What's the difference? I'm not saying that to be flippant; I'm not quite sure what you mean.

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History and faith are two different things. Anyway this is another discussion... As for what is taught at school, couldn't for example you go to school and listen to what is told there, and be religious at home?

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There is a verse in the Bible that says that you cannot serve two masters. For me to believe in evolution during schooldays and creationism during the weekend is hypocritical. I can't do both because I can't be true to both. They are both contradictory.

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I have the opposite idea, since I first heard of this concept I imagined homeschoolers as bookworms that spend all their time studying and being intellectual instead of doing things appropriate for their age... like throwing in the occasional swearing to feel 'adult' and being generally silly.

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If one acts like an adult and thinks like an adult and does the same actions as an adult he doesn't have to swear to "feel" adult.
Being silly with a cause is a far cry from being silly with no reason at all. Even I like some kinds of silliness. I like the silliness of Peter Pan and the Wizard of Oz because it's ok for them to be silly. However I do not think I need to laugh when someone tries(and doesn't succeed) in being witty.

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And now you will say that children can have their parents teaching them but what should they do if their parents don't even know how to write down their names? And this is the condition in most of the developing countries. There are even some parents who think "education" would take their children nowhere. If only government set school compulsary, parents will have to send their children to schools.

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In this circumstance my opinion must and does change. Education is vital to well-being no matter what. In a setting like that, however, there would be no distinctions between people; one would be able to relate because they would all be in the same boat.:)

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Who says you have to have long friendly conversations with them? You just have to learn to live with them, bear the sight of them without resenting them.

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But you want me to socialize and there's no one else my age that I know personally that is engaging to me. That person doesn't have to agree with me but just like to talk about different stuff. I don't mind if people talk to me about crushes for a short while; that I can handle and am glad to be a dumping ground for. But a day or two is all that I can give.

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Wouldn't it be easier for you to learn with a group of students who "have interest in studies"?

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Why? I don't follow.

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Weren't you yourself critisizing the girls you wear make-up? If you have a right to critisize, then they do have it as well.

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I don't criticize those girls. My Mom wears makeup. It's the idea of eight-year-olds wanting to grow up too fast. Not wanting to believe in fairies and Peter Pan until they are too old to. Understated makeup is fine. Girls with neon pink hair(is that considered makeup?) and vibrant blue eyeliner is eye-catching.

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I am sorry for that, didn't know public schools at your place were like that. In my area, they are vice-versa as a matter of fact.

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They are. That's the difference between the UK and the US. (I'm assurming you live in the UK) If the difference in 30s literature is credible, the UK is a rather classy place.:D

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Good for you. Being an idealist can be good, and can't be other times. You don't often come across good people in life: and afterwards you have to cope with people swearing themselves blue and doing all sorts of unpleasant stuff. I wouldn't like to go deep into that argument, for the sake of being on the topic. But even if you disagree with me here, you might agree that every child can't afford these road trips, newspapers and tv, and that's why I think schooling should be made compulsary.

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There are unpleasant people everywhere, regardless of anything. Especially if someone at the store asks if you shouldn't be in school. they're practically ready to pummel my Mom when she answers we homeschool.

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Oh, andave-ya, you don't have to be what you are not or there is no need to pretend. Just be the way you are. I am sure people would accept you that way.

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I don't pretend. I learned my lesson. People do accept me, just not everyone which ties in all over again to the socialization aspect. I do socialize, but I prefer not to be with people who don't want to be with me.


I think, in the end, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this topic. If you won't be persuaded you won't.

Again, I don't mean to offend anyone.

One thing that was clear to me from the start is that no one here is trying to make the other side change their opinions... you asked for opinions, we are giving them - I will never agree with you and I'm conscious you'll never agree with me and I don't care, but both now know more about the other side - you have the view of European and Asian people here, to which the idea of homeschooling is totally foreign. This is the kind of issue where people stick to their idea and their values, and discussion is only a gym for ideas.

And Pensy is not from the UK, unless you consider the UK a developing country, as she defined her country...;)

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Why do I have to fight for it? Do I not have the right to be myself without any opposition from people who don't like who I am? As a homeschooler I don't have to fight for it because people will recognize that individuality is good.

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See, to me this is like hiding. There are three ways: assimilate, stand in front of other people but remain yourself, or hiding because you can't face to be different in the presence of other people, and are only proud to be different in your shelter. But this is getting far from homeschooling per se.

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No offense, but what exactly am I doing now? offending my personality?
Furthermore, I'm still here defending what I agree with to the best of my ability. You want me to change my views on homeschooling. Is this not considered peer pressure?

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Never tried to change them, I'm just stating mine. Peer pressure is something else, and I've always thought the 'peer' was to be taken literally, and since we don't have the same background, this is not peer ;) But I might be wrong on that and I'm splitting hair just for the sake of it. :D

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And furthermore, you are yourselves a product of your schooling. Most if not all the people posting from outside the USA have never heard of homeschooling but have already decided that it is unhealthy without even looking at the benefits of it.

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I don't see too many benefits, that's just it.

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I know what I believe in but I'll listen to what you have to say.

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Do you want me to buy you a halo now? ;)

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Again I say this not to offend but to prove my point. It seems to me that we're just going through the same loopholes -socialization and teaching- and I'm just saying the same thing over again.

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Welcome to the world of discussions...

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Yes, I'm sorry, I forgot to mention it. My mother teaches me and my sister Arabic because we hail from the Middle East. Here in the States, a foreign language isn't required until high school, so if the parents don't know a language the student can take college courses, online courses....we're not just limited to the curriculum.

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What's the difference? I'm not saying that to be flippant; I'm not quite sure what you mean.

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Let me try to explain... what I meant is, people might have said to you that homeschooling is like being kept in a 'bubble', that is apart from socialisation - that is not even my biggest concern, because to me the 'bubble' it makes is creating an alternative reality, living in a shelter where everything is homely and perfect and made for you and cosy like your family - and that can't last unless you live all your life in this shelter, which seems hardly possible as one day you'll have to have a job and face all the crap of life, which might seem even harder if you're not prepared for it (of course this is highly simplified and generalised, but it's a hypotetic point).
The socialisation aspect doesn't have to be a positive one. To me a child/young person has to be put in a social situation whether he/she likes it or not, in order to learn how to live in a community, with all the aspects you might not like of it. It's the community aspect, not the "let's all be friend and like the same make-up" aspect.

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There is a verse in the Bible that says that you cannot serve two masters. For me to believe in evolution during schooldays and creationism during the weekend is hypocritical. I can't do both because I can't be true to both. They are both contradictory.

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No one says you have to believe in evolution... no one says you have to believe in everything they tell you at school... Maybe the fact that education for you identifies with your family, makes you think you have to identify with school...

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If one acts like an adult and thinks like an adult and does the same actions as an adult he doesn't have to swear to "feel" adult.
Being silly with a cause is a far cry from being silly with no reason at all. Even I like some kinds of silliness. I like the silliness of Peter Pan and the Wizard of Oz because it's ok for them to be silly. However I do not think I need to laugh when someone tries(and doesn't succeed) in being witty.

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Yes, but that's all part of living in the real world, which includes things you don't approve...

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They are. That's the difference between the UK and the US. (I'm assurming you live in the UK) If the difference in 30s literature is credible, the UK is a rather classy place.:D

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The UK is not what you think... it's not that classy really, not that perfect as it was in my dream. Not that I have huge complaints about it besides one or two, but unfortunately most visitors do find it different from what they thought...

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I don't pretend. I learned my lesson. People do accept me, just not everyone which ties in all over again to the socialization aspect. I do socialize, but I prefer not to be with people who don't want to be with me.

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The socialisation thing is a bit misleading. I went to school, I had maybe 5 friends to relate with. It doesn't mean that school makes you a social being (I became vaguely sociable only in my 20s), and not even that it makes you all the same (unless you want to be the same as all them), just that we cannot imagine life without that kind of experience, with all its pros and cons.

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

Do you necessarily have to, if English is your first language ? :D

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That's exactly why I like to provoke on this issue :D :p

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Originally Posted by Virgil

And I think it comes down to we in the US don't trust and want to rely on the government for things. It sucks away our freedom. We feel that when we can do it ourselves, we pefer to.

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That comes as a surprise to me... from outside the impression is that you do tend to trust your government to a certain extent - not everybody of course and not fanatically, but from where I stand that's the impression, compared to a lot of countries in Europe and especially with Italy, where we only think that a government is there to take advantage of people (what can you expect from a country that had like 62 governments in 61 years of republic :lol:)

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Originally Posted by Koa

That comes as a surprise to me... from outside the impression is that you do tend to trust your government to a certain extent - not everybody of course and not fanatically, but from where I stand that's the impression, compared to a lot of countries in Europe and especially with Italy, where we only think that a government is there to take advantage of people (what can you expect from a country that had like 62 governments in 61 years of republic :lol:)

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Actually that's true. We are not as cynical about government, but I think we feel that it can't run things very well, so we're better off doing it ourselves when possible.

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Originally Posted by Koa

One thing that was clear to me from the start is that no one here is trying to make the other side change their opinions... you asked for opinions, we are giving them - I will never agree with you and I'm conscious you'll never agree with me and I don't care, but both now know more about the other side - you have the view of European and Asian people here, to which the idea of homeschooling is totally foreign. This is the kind of issue where people stick to their idea and their values, and discussion is only a gym for ideas.

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You are right. The purpose of this "argumentation" is not to convince the other side but to convince the people who will read this thread.

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Do you want me to buy you a halo now?

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I'm sorry, that was self-righteous of me to say. I got a little too carried away...:blush: :blush:

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I don't see too many benefits, that's just it.

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based on what?

The rest of the stuff in your post, Koa, I've already addressed in previous posts. No offense but I've written myself out today.

A wider-scoped discussion on homeschooling... I'm learning a lot.

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Originally Posted by andave_ya

based on what?

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:rolleyes: on what I said so far perhaps?

which I've already answered. Sorry Koa, this isn't going anywhere.

:rolleyes: Never thought it would go anywhere, I just answered to your hint by underlining that, if you hadn't noticed, that was what I had to say...
Some people take themselves too seriously.

To All> This thread was started to discuss pros and cons of home schooling. If you don't like having your views challenged or questioned, you might like to refrain from posting as by expressing your views here, you readily agree that there will be people disagreeing with you as well as those who agree.

Resorting to ad hominem arguments will do little to move the discussion forward.

Thanks Scheherazade..:)

apologies all. I'm notoriously stubborn. :blush: :( :sick:

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Originally Posted by juketay

Just for clarification, there is a big difference between "homeschooling" and "unschooling"
Homeschooling in the US (in my state) require 'actual learning' that they check on.

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The main difference between homeschooling and unschooling is that homeschooling usually always consists of some particular curriculum that is followed by the student. In unschooling, however, there is no "forced" curriculum. Homeschooling is more parent led learning whereas unschooling is more child led learning.

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

Homeschooling seems very interesting, I have never heard of it before. Here in Germany, it would be illegal, as every child under 16 (I think) is lawfully required to frequent some kind of school

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Originally Posted by Koa

I had never heard of homeschooling before I heard of it on this forum (in other occasions as well), and Schoko's post reminded me that it must be because it's illegal (I suppose it is in most countries in Europe).

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Actually youll find there is a loop hole in that law. Around where we live here in the uk there are groups of Travllers and fairground people who do still travel and becasue they do obvioulsy they dont attend school instead the government supplies travlling teachers who go along with them when they are on the eroad and if they are in a town for a certain time they have to attend that school. I know there are kids in my mums school who through te year will go to about 4 differant schools. Also child actors etc can be home schooled but again by special government supplied teachers.

My mum got us a homeschooling thing once , becasue the summer holidays were 3 months long ( from may to the middle of spt) and we got bored so she decided to teach us. and the idea was it would continue through school. But I do have to say it those 3 months well rather some of the books that came as part of course have shaped me more than anyothers the history book was FASCINATINg and then theyre were 2 books on myths.

But at the same time I know of alot of homeschool kids who just fall to pices when they go off to university.

True story: This boy was home schooled all his life in a very religious home he was bloody genius and miles ahead academically so hegot accepted to college/university ( which is it in the states?) when hed just turned 16. within six months he was on drugs, failing...I think he got kicked out... prison, etc etc etc

The problem was hed never really been in contact with 'thoses kinds of peopel' also he lacked the social maturity despite the academic and intellectual ones at 16 to deal with be pushed out of the nest as it were.

The greatest thingabout school and I practillcly lived in a school enviroment from when I was 2 is that you do meet bullies, and liars and cheats you get the obressive bigioted idiots and the free thinkers ( and thats just the teachers) you learn to survive people or you sink.

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

Do you necessarily have to, if English is your first language ? :D

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almost completly OT but yes everyone should learn a second languge...especially people in the EU but even more paticually the UK. YOu get continet nearly everyone can speak english but do we even try properly to learn other languges? Nooo I think the EU schol make it compulsory to start learning a secondlanguge right from the first day of school at 5/6 . end rant.

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

Actually youll find there is a loop hole in that law. Around where we live here in the uk there are groups of Travllers and fairground people who do still travel and becasue they do obvioulsy they dont attend school instead the government supplies travlling teachers who go along with them when they are on the eroad and if they are in a town for a certain time they have to attend that school. I know there are kids in my mums school who through te year will go to about 4 differant schools. Also child actors etc can be home schooled but again by special government supplied teachers.

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Oh we used to have kids from the circus that would come to school for like 1-2 months while the circus was there, and then moved to somewhere else...of course it was a kind of weird situation...

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My mum got us a homeschooling thing once , becasue the summer holidays were 3 months long ( from may to the middle of spt) and we got bored so she decided to teach us. and the idea was it would continue through school. But I do have to say it those 3 months well rather some of the books that came as part of course have shaped me more than anyothers the history book was FASCINATINg and then theyre were 2 books on myths.

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I recently learnt that Italy is the only place where you get homework to do during the holidays...
And well my mum taught me to read before I went to school, but that's because I was costantly asking about letters...

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But at the same time I know of alot of homeschool kids who just fall to pices when they go off to university.

True story: This boy was home schooled all his life in a very religious home he was bloody genius and miles ahead academically so hegot accepted to college/university ( which is it in the states?) when hed just turned 16. within six months he was on drugs, failing...I think he got kicked out... prison, etc etc etc

The problem was hed never really been in contact with 'thoses kinds of peopel' also he lacked the social maturity despite the academic and intellectual ones at 16 to deal with be pushed out of the nest as it were.

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That was my concern...

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The greatest thingabout school and I practillcly lived in a school enviroment from when I was 2 is that you do meet bullies, and liars and cheats you get the obressive bigioted idiots and the free thinkers ( and thats just the teachers) you learn to survive people or you sink.

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That's what I was saying too

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almost completly OT but yes everyone should learn a second languge...especially people in the EU but even more paticually the UK. YOu get continet nearly everyone can speak english but do we even try properly to learn other languges? Nooo I think the EU schol make it compulsory to start learning a secondlanguge right from the first day of school at 5/6 . end rant.

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That would totally make it another topic...

***
I remembered today that I forgot to ask one thing: what about employers? What happens when a homeschooled kid looks for a job? Assuming that anything at all happens, but you get me... is it a plus, or doesn't it matter at all?

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Originally Posted by Koa

I recently learnt that Italy is the only place where you get homework to do during the holidays...
And well my mum taught me to read before I went to school, but that's because I was costantly asking about letters...

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No they do that here too but at the most it takes you 2 days to get through it if you do it all in one go unless its the holidays between years 10-11 and 12-13 mostly becasue the exams are at the the end of the second years so its just like a long holiday in the middle of the one year.
:D

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Originally Posted by Koa

I recently learnt that Italy is the only place where you get homework to do during the holidays...
And well my mum taught me to read before I went to school, but that's because I was costantly asking about letters...

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What???:eek2: I used to get lots of homework during the holdays!!! Lots!!! Kids don't know how good they have it today. :p ;)

Hello everyone... I've got a topic which I recently posted which alludes to some of the views discussed in this Homeschooling topic. I believe that homeschooling results in antisocialism which is an EXTREMELY light form of a situation which can turn into a major problem (similar to mine) if left unabated. Leaving antisocialism unabated in homeschooling children can evolve into drastic Unibomber type-thinking (dramatic mood changes, anger strikes(which can last several weeks), thoughts of suicide and killing and plans of running away from home). I have felt all of these through my experience with homeschooling but DON'T let this deter some of you older forum members here who might be thinking of homeschooling their children. My situation perhaps is a singular one because I am the only child and I have a mother who is completely oblivious of everything that isn't learning-oriented. But OTHER situations where antisocialism might not be too much of a problem, because there is more than one child in the family, the child has relatives, or social friends...I believe homeschooling can be very helpful. On the bright side, homeschooling puts the participating child at a very high advantage over normally schooled kids, many of the reasons for this have been stated previously...(freedom to take whatever classes, addition and lessening of time needed for specific subjects, and no dress code).

Yes, I believe the "no dress code" part of homeschooling is the most comfortable liesure of this system. I do most of my work either in my boxers or topless pajamas and the only individuals who see me are my dog and mom.. There is a great deal of comfort in the environment of homeschooling mainly because... its your living environment lol.. It's home..

The downside is.. most homeschoolers (or maybe its only me?) have full work loads all during the summer, Christmas, all the other major holidays... and their birthdays. Actually it was worse for me on my birthday. I had a full work load plus I had to volunteer for hours at the Museum of Discovery.

Yes, you're right. I agree with you because you're saying that homeschooling isn't necessarily bad but isn't necessarily good either. Homeschooling does not work for all people because of various circumstances but that doesn't mean it doesn't work at all. But I'm sorry you had full work loads throughout the year. My family does that only if we're behind on anything.

Glad you agree, andave ya :)

Speaking of homework, this is a wrong concept that those who go to schools don't get enough homework now a days. We get so much homework in Summer Vacations that my happiness (which is always present when Summer holidays are going to come) is getting lesser and lesser day by day, just thinking of the dreaded homework I would get.


And even in regular days, we get homework on daily basis. Not too much to overload us, but three homeworks per day are quite common, not counting Math work which we get daily.

only three wow your lucky then agian I never did my homework and was always getting in trouble for that :D

Andave invited me to check out this thread after I had posted Anti-school sentiment.

Many here in this thread have agreed that they are "just discussing" and not trying to sway each other - and admitted that they themselves will not be swayed. I find that disconcerting and kind of embarrassing for you all. I see a lot of intelligence here and it has swayed me...

I am convinced that I must watch out for my own children, that they not be so unprepared for the idiots in the world that university drives them crazy.

I like the idea of being prepared for the real world, but subjecting my children to the horrors of school so that they will be prepared for similar horrors in the "real world" is ridiculous. The real world imposes organic laws, provided by the nature of man and human society, not made up by legislatures and teachers. If you don't see the differences, do a little more digging. Some philosophy on the nature and origins of authority might be useful.

I suppose there are legislated laws that the real world imposes - taxes, for example. And school is certainly a good preparation if you want your children to peacefully accept whatever burden their state heaps upon their backs without any protest. "Good schooling" could have prevented the American Revolution, I guess. Maybe the French Revolution too. Hmm...

We in the USA use the terms college and university interchangeably, but college is a bit less "elite". We have places of higher learning called "community college," as well as other places called "four-year universities". Community colleges are very rarely called university, but the four-year universities are often called college.

For anyone intelligent enough to recognize that being swayed is a good thing, check out mises.org for discussion of the interplay between freedom and government. You can also check out The Underground History of American Education for a specific example of this playing out in the USA in the area of education. The entire book is free online.

Is it called "compulsive schooling" rather than "coercive schooling" because of the connotation?

I know this is an older thread, but as it has just resurfaced and it is something I might be able to articulately phrase an opinion on, I'm going to comment...

I agree with neither public schooling (institutional) or homeschooling.

Having always attended public school, I've found it extremely troubling that so many morals and ideals are instilled in children by teachers. Frankly, especially once we reach the high school age, I think school should be a place to go, and learn, and leave. Not to be shaped morally and socially. *massive eye roll*. That is the parents responsibility, and it scares me that it is so subtly put into the hands of institutions and teachers- teachers who view things subjectively and are subject to a personal opinion which they often try to press onto children. Example: I am a believer in eugenics, and ALWAYS had history teachers tell me that was WRONG. That is NOT their place to say. It is their place to teach me FACT. FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT. Also, I never believed in standing for the National Anthem, and despite having my own reasons, it caused me a lot of problems up until the very day I dropped out.

I think the exposure offered in public schools is important. I hated the social environment of highschool and public school, but I still believe it was important to me learning to communicate and socialize properly. Being exposed to strangers and a variety of peer issues and decisions obviously taught me some important lessons.

I also do not agree with homeschooling. While there are benefits, such as the flexibility of time, curriculum, etc, one never really has that social exposure. I can't imagine what it would be like to go from being homeschooled my entire life to going to University. o_O. There would be thousands of loud, weird strangers running around me, some of whom were mutual friends since Kindergarten, or even grade 6, or 9, and I wouldn't have that social connection. I wouldn't know how to cope in large crowds or participate in group discussions. I would be used to my Mother or Father's appraisal, not a big red 'b+' with the comments, 'Good, but needs work', on it. I would have no common ground with anybody. I just think it would be a very lonely world, home schooling... the biggest benefit I can see is that instilling moral values and beliefs is in the hands of the parents, not the institution. I do think however that it is more realistic. Instead of being in a created, controlled, environment like at public school, you are in your own environment and constantly in the 'real world', not switching back and forth between 'I'm at school' and 'I'm out living'. At least that's my personal opinion.

Blahblahblah...

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I told my Mom about the swearing and her opinion was that people who swear left and right really don't have a grasp of language and I agree with her.

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Do you think I don't really have a grasp of language? :lol:...

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Originally Posted by BeccaT

I know this is an older thread, but as it has just resurfaced and it is something I might be able to articulately phrase an opinion on, I'm going to comment...

I agree with neither public schooling (institutional) or homeschooling.

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Bec, I enjoyed reading your opinion - you put it very nicely. But, what do you agree with, then?

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Do you think I don't really have a grasp of language? :lol:...

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Today at math class I overheard one guy say to another "I don't understand this [bleep]"

My (mental) response? "Oh there's not much to understand. It's just food that's gone through your digestive system.

A couple weeks ago in my theater class a guy walked up to me to get his stuff from the seat next to me. Out of the blue, he says "To be or not to be, that is the [bleepbleepbleep] question.

Actually, the question is, can a question do that? :idea: And, what's the mother of a question? :sick:

So, I still think people who swear don't have a grasp of the English language. I can understand swearing to vent, although I don't like it, but why else would one need to?

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Originally Posted by andave_ya

So, I still think people who swear don't have a grasp of the English language. I can understand swearing to vent, although I don't like it, but why else would one need to?

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:blush: You should have seen me in Junior High and High School. Every other word was a four letter word. :lol:

I just found this discussion and wanted to share my story.
I went to normal school until 7th grade then i switch to homeschooling.
Becca got good points. I think public school is just another bubble; though it really helps you to develop social skills.
In other hand, homeschool is good too. It build a disciplined character in me and left me develop my own mind without any direct outward influence.
I think that for me, church was a really good help in the social part of my life. There I learned to share with other people and know them. But yeah the common interest made it easier.
Soon, i'll be going to college. I know it will be hard to adjust myself to receive classes again but I have friends who had gone through that and adjusted perfectly with the time.

I think homeschooling is not a very good idea for a shy person since you really miss the social advantage of the public school but for an outgoing personality person it wont be an obstacle in his life.

I feel the need to try address some of the issues brought up in Becca's post.

First so people know where I'm coming from I was "homeschooled" for basically all of my schooling. But it wasn't strictly "at home". I took some classes from a Professor at Emory University that attended also my church and offered some classes for homeschooled highschool students. I also did dual-enrollment during my senior year of highschool at Clayton State University. So thats my background and my homeschooling experience.

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Originally Posted by BeccaT

There would be thousands of loud, weird strangers running around me, some of whom were mutual friends since Kindergarten, or even grade 6, or 9, and I wouldn't have that social connection. I wouldn't know how to cope in large crowds or participate in group discussions. I would be used to my Mother or Father's appraisal, not a big red 'b+' with the comments, 'Good, but needs work', on it. I would have no common ground with anybody.

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1. Not knowing people. It's true when I started College classes my senior year of Highschool I didn't know very many people, hardly anyone really. But it wouldn't been any different then going to a college in a different state. Not having an already established social connection is just a part of life. It will happen almost any time you change jobs, schools, houses, etc. If you don't know how to cope with people you don't already know it's not because you were homeschooled.
2. Not knowing how to cope in large crowds or group discussions. I think I came to college knowing more about how to respect other people and carry on a meaningful conversation then at least 50% of the other freshmen. My parents did an excellent job of making sure I knew how to work with groups of people. If a homeschooling parent looks for it there are many many ways to help your child learn to be part of groups. besides that there are tons of public schooled people I know who would rather curl up and die that talk in group and and extremely shy and unable to articulate themselves.
3. I found that many times my parents appraisal of my work was much more harsh then most teachers. My parents my not have written my grade in a big red marker on my homework, but in many way I got worse than that. With a teacher you make a bad grade, they write it down, the end. But with my parents they remembered and said "you didn't do very well last time...work harder this time". They would push me to work harder.

I agree that with becca that both have good and not so good things about them. But I think that Homschooling is easier to "fix" than public schooling. If I ever have Children I think I would want to homeschool simply because when their at public school I have no effect on what their being taught. At home I can choose to involved them in programs etc. that would "round out" anything missed by not being at public school.


(I'm not sure I've done a very good job of writing down what I wanted to, so if anyone has a question please ask!)

I was not homeschooled, but I attended a Catholic grade school and a Catholic highschool. I promote homeschooling because I am a dissident. I think the government has been ruining America for over a century and there are not enough people demanding that it stop. Public school provides subtle biases that diminish people's awareness of the problem and their tendency to do anything about it in the content of the curriculum, in the authority structure of a school, and in the fact that attendance is not a choice. Even homeschooled kids have to take standardized tests and be schooled for 4-6 hours every day.

When I first faced the prospect that an income tax and having any respect for the authority of a government that doesn't earn it are foolish, I thought public schooling might be something good that government provides. It certainly puts people who are good at teaching in touch with people who could use some teaching, and that is good. But I hadn't studied enough...

I recently read The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto and it cleared things up for me. The whole thing is available for free online.

There's NO homeschooling practice in Brasil. To me, it sounds like US culture. (Or like XIXth century British/French/German living in Africa.)

I don't have, therefore, an opinion on whether it's good or bad.

(I lived too little a time in Portugal to tell about it there, but I never heard, within the almost three years I lived there, about it.)

When I think (because I do) about teaching kids at home (considering I'll ever have children at home .. I'm not even married~) I think about it as complementary. My kids will need school, and, in Brasil, I know they'll need good basis in English. English they'll learn at home with dad ... And they will learn Latin as well with dad! :)

Which will be good for them.

I think I'd never be able to teach them maths ... I doubt I actually learned it :crash:

But maybe I get a smart wife :rolleyes: A musician, I hope!---

It has been fascinating to read the opinions posted in this thread! It seems to me that neither homeschooling nor public schools are inherently good or bad in and of themselves. Each person and family will have to do the hard work of assessing and deciding for themselves what is or is not working for them. I have met great kids who were homeschooled, and great kids who go to public schools, too.

I am a teacher and a parent. I like teaching, and when my kids were younger I did wonder if I could homeschool successfully. In the end, I couldn't afford not to work, but I doubted then that I could have done it very well. I need structure myself. My kid's education turned out to be somewhat spotty, anyway. Their elementary and middle school educations were fine, but the older two lost interest in education around their junior year. My oldest son got his GED, and the next one got his diploma.

My oldest and youngest sons have ADD. I really don't want to hear from someone who doesn't believe in THAT, but the public high school my youngest son went to really let him down, in my opinion. He just never did well in the large classes at his school. He is now going to a small alternative school, which was probably designed for at-risk kids to recapture credits, but his grades went from failing to A's and B's. He now feels successful.

As for me, I teach at an inner-city school where many of the kids do not even read at grade level. I am glad and proud to be there, to perhaps have an impact on someone who might have gotten lost in the shuffle. It is always a challenge to get them to read and write, to feel like readers and writers, to feel powerful as learners. But that is really what it's all about, isn't it?