Sons and Lovers

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Yes, I have also noticed the conflicts a lot. This really makes me wonder what were Lawrence's religious views? In the book, Paul's own religious views are not much highlighted. As far as I remember, there was this passage in which Paul's religious views seemed to be having a conflict.

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Yes, many conflicts in all of Lawrence's works. Very good citing the religion as one form of conflict. Another hard question to difinitively answer is about religion and L's beliefs. I felt in S&L much the same way you did; that Paul was in conflict about his religious views. I believe in L's own life he went through many stages from non-belief to rebirth and belief in a religious sense, but not a 'conventional' religious sense, at all. Virgil knows more about this and he can explain it much better than I can. I will ask him to check in here, unless he is reading along; he can fill in more of the details and explain. L's religion was more of a mystical sense of living.

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Oh I can understand. You must be discussing Women in Love as well. I have checked it out in my local book-shop, couldn't find it there, but have asked for it. It might be available soon. Or else I have decided I wouldn't wait and read it online.

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Wow, that discussion is really something - now it is taking off and is so active, I can hardly keep up. It is very challenging though. Thanks for being understanding if I delay here on this thread. We are nearly at the end of the book. I may finish up tonight. I was too tired last night and it was too late. I hope you can find the book. Interestingly though it is not at all like "Sons and Lovers". I found a quote last night by Lawrence that said he would never write another novel like "Sons and Lovers" again. He would go onto something new. "Women in Love" is more involved, I believe. You know more complex with a lot of symbolism, etc. Anyway, hope you find the book. I bought mine off Amazon - a newer version by Cambridge. It is suppose to have some restored parts but so far I don't see a difference but the extras are worth buying that edition. We also have it listed on Lit Net as you said. You could print out chapter by chapter to read.

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It would be nice of you if you can post the picture. Thanks.

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I tried to find it online, but no good. There is a terrific online exhibit at Nottingham University. Cambridge has some things online about Lawrence as well, or it all might be in conjunction. I am not sure now. I will get the link and post it next time. You will love the sites.

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Complex books encourage complex thoughts, and complex thoughts encourage a complex discussion. :)

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Pensive, this is wonderful - did you write it? can I use it for my signature quote? I could say: Quote by Pensive:.........
It is so well put and so true!

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Interesting! I just checked out wikipedia, and read some of Freud's theory. I am not sure if people would agree with me here but his theories didn't seem very sane to me. By my own personal experience, those I know, my obervations, I get this feeling his theories don't seem to apply. Same seems to be the case in Sons and Lovers. The son was closer to his mother because she was the one who spent time with him. A person like Morel, who worked hard in the mines, then came home late mostly, he would hardly have time to share things with his son. Mother who remained at home was more likely to do so. As for the mother preferring son, there can be several reasons for that. It is I think mentioned in the book also, when her children were born she found a way to divert attention from her husband. And the kind of woman Mrs. Morel was, it was not difficult to figure out that she considered men as the bread-earner, not the women. Men were considered physically powerful as well. I think that's the reason why she was closer to her sons than Annie.

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Excellent going to check out Freud. I should read that entry myself. I forget so much; that will take me back to my college days.
I don't know if I agree with you entirely since I read that letter by Lawrence last night about his relationship to his mother. I can't wait to show that to you and see what you think. Have patience, since I am such a slow typist. I am going to try and scan it in and see if that works, or maybe I can type from the scan, easier than from the book.

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The other reason as to why Lawrence was so close to her mother can also be the death of William. I remember fairly well that after that incident, they got even more close. This is also natural for a mother to feel more protected of her son after such a terrible death of her son at a young age. I don't think Freud's theory has got anything to do with this.

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I think you are right in saying that added into the equation of why Lawrence and the mother were so close. I do agree with somethings in your last passage. I agree about the relationship of the mother and father and the effect it had on the family. I am sure this did make Paul's mother turn to her children for solace, comfort, companionship and love, etc.

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Yes, the book had turned very emotional.

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It did towards the end; the second part you called 'Lovers' really got intense, didn't it?

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Yes, I might try his biography but Women in Love at first. :p I am quite excited about that.

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Well, for now just read a short biography online and then later you may want to explore a more indepth one. You will definitely find WIL interesting. After you do read it we can discuss it and also you can go into the thread and read all that was written in the discussion group. It has been a fantastic discussion in there. I have learned so much.

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Thanks quasmodo, though I feel as if I don't agree with all points. But still it's a good review. :)

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Yes, Quasi, good points brought out in that post. Thanks again!

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In a way I agree. He has certainly expressed the women he knew very well. A very deep insight of women he knew. But there were some general statements he made about females which I didn't like very much. And this makes me feel as if feminists do have a point if they critisize his attitude towards women. Here is this passage I previously quoted, but now this seems relevant to it:

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I agree with you as well on this. Some of his statements sometimes bring up the hairs on my back in defense, being a woman. Yes, that passage seems to be one sided doesn't it. I think by WIL he felt differently about this. But Lawrence said himself that his path was the only one and he felt he should be followed. Many women would take offense to that notion. He did bruise the sensibilities of many a female. It is true. Lawrence was sometimes very much an enigma and he displayed a certain duality in his own personality and his beliefs. I think sometimes he does contradict his own words within a novel. This passage in particular does not seem so definite to me. He seems to be arrogant at the time and perhaps he is just displaying this part of Paul's immaturity/confusion at that time. I don't think Lawrence ultimately felt this way about women in the work force. Here he was talking to Miriam, wasn't he? I have to be honest I am not sure if either of us are taking this passage as it is intended to be meant. I will ask Virgil his take on it. I am a little confused about it presently.

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Perhaps you can type only some parts of it? The ones you think are most interesting.

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Good suggestion. I will see if I can. No problem; I enjoy sharing information when I find it.

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It's a striking news. I had no idea it would be so! Thanks a lot for giving this piece of information.

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Yes, I found it interesting also that Clara was a combination of women L knew.

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I don't call myself a feminist, but there are things in which I agree with their principles. And I feel I agree with them again in the matter of this book. The views of Paul, though highly interesting, but seemed very particular, confined to the study of some women he knew, very much to me. But I van be wrong of course in this feeling. I have explained it in my earlier than the earlier post. :)

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This I am not sure of. I think you are right in that the views were pertaining to particular women in the book and not all women by far. It was a very personal portrayal of these characters and his intimacies. Is that what you meant?

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, many conflicts in all of Lawrence's works. Very good citing the religion as one form of conflict. Another hard question to difinitively answer is about religion and L's beliefs. I felt in S&L much the same way you did; that Paul was in conflict about his religious views. I believe in L's own life he went through many stages from non-belief to rebirth and belief in a religious sense, but not a 'conventional' religious sense, at all. Virgil knows more about this and he can explain it much better than I can. I will ask him to check in here, unless he is reading along; he can fill in more of the details and explain. L's religion was more of a mystical sense of living.

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The book has some very interesting thoughts of Paul regarding this, but the trouble is they are very much contradictory. It's not easy to judge by them to which religion (or perhaps to none) he belonged.

I hope Virgil also gets time to give his thoughts about it, and we are not disturbing him. :)

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Wow, that discussion is really something - now it is taking off and is so active, I can hardly keep up. It is very challenging though. Thanks for being understanding if I delay here on this thread. We are nearly at the end of the book. I may finish up tonight. I was too tired last night and it was too late. I hope you can find the book. Interestingly though it is not at all like "Sons and Lovers". I found a quote last night by Lawrence that said he would never write another novel like "Sons and Lovers" again. He would go onto something new. "Women in Love" is more involved, I believe. You know more complex with a lot of symbolism, etc. Anyway, hope you find the book. I bought mine off Amazon - a newer version by Cambridge. It is suppose to have some restored parts but so far I don't see a difference but the extras are worth buying that edition. We also have it listed on Lit Net as you said. You could print out chapter by chapter to read.

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I had thought of printing it, but you see it has many chapters, and is quite long which would make it difficult for me to print it out. My printer is quite slow as well.

If I get it late, then I would still like to read the discussion of yours about it. Sometimes it's interesting to be just an observor rather a participant! :D

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I tried to find it online, but no good. There is a terrific online exhibit at Nottingham University.

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No problem! :)

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Cambridge has some things online about Lawrence as well, or it all might be in conjunction. I am not sure now. I will get the link and post it next time. You will love the sites.

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I am quite sure I would like it. :) Thanks!

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Pensive, this is wonderful - did you write it? can I use it for my signature quote? I could say: Quote by Pensive:.........
It is so well put and so true!

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:blush: Ummm...yes, I wrote it. But it was just an ordinary thought...

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Excellent going to check out Freud. I should read that entry myself. I forget so much; that will take me back to my college days.

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Hey Janine, you seem to be knowing quite a lot about Lawrence and the books, now it seems to be as if you have been a literature student!

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I don't know if I agree with you entirely since I read that letter by Lawrence last night about his relationship to his mother. I can't wait to show that to you and see what you think. Have patience, since I am such a slow typist. I am going to try and scan it in and see if that works, or maybe I can type from the scan, easier than from the book.

I think you are right in saying that added into the equation of why Lawrence and the mother were so close. I do agree with somethings in your last passage. I agree about the relationship of the mother and father and the effect it had on the family. I am sure this did make Paul's mother turn to her children for solace, comfort, companionship and love, etc.

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This seems interesting. I would like to see what he has got to say in the letter. And take as much time as you want, Janine! But according to what I read in the book, I got this feeling that Freud's theory had got nothing to do with Paul's relationship with his mother.

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It did towards the end; the second part you called 'Lovers' really got intense, didn't it?

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Yes, very much. It was a tear-jerker on many places.

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Well, for now just read a short biography online and then later you may want to explore a more indepth one. You will definitely find WIL interesting. After you do read it we can discuss it and also you can go into the thread and read all that was written in the discussion group. It has been a fantastic discussion in there. I have learned so much.

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I have read a bit about him on wikipedia, but would try to look at other sources as well. :) I am glad I read Sons and Lovers in summer vacations. :D

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I agree with you as well on this. Some of his statements sometimes bring up the hairs on my back in defense, being a woman. Yes, that passage seems to be one sided doesn't it. I think by WIL he felt differently about this. But Lawrence said himself that his path was the only one and he felt he should be followed. Many women would take offense to that notion. He did bruise the sensibilities of many a female. It is true. Lawrence was sometimes very much an enigma and he displayed a certain duality in his own personality and his beliefs. I think sometimes he does contradict his own words within a novel. This passage in particular does not seem so definite to me. He seems to be arrogant at the time and perhaps he is just displaying this part of Paul's immaturity/confusion at that time. I don't think Lawrence ultimately felt this way about women in the work force. Here he was talking to Miriam, wasn't he? I have to be honest I am not sure if either of us are taking this passage as it is intended to be meant. I will ask Virgil his take on it. I am a little confused about it presently

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Yes, it's the last time he talks to Miriam in Sons and Lovers, before he leaves. I am myself not too sure if he certainly meant to say what I comprehended.

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Good suggestion. I will see if I can. No problem; I enjoy sharing information when I find it.

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And I enjoy reading the information you share. :)

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This I am not sure of. I think you are right in that the views were pertaining to particular women in the book and not all women by far. It was a very personal portrayal of these characters and his intimacies. Is that what you meant?

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A kind of. But what I actually meant was by reading the book, we couldn't have been sure the images as women he had of Clara and Miriam could apply to other women if he had been careful enough not to generalise them. It seemed to me as if Paul was generalizing women; making up his views about the whole female kind just by judging the women he knew. But perhaps I am wrong in this feeling, as I have already said... :)

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Originally Posted by Pensive

The book has some very interesting thoughts of Paul regarding this, but the trouble is they are very much contradictory. It's not easy to judge by them to which religion (or perhaps to none) he belonged.

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Pensive, You know, it is characteristic that Lawrence's characters sometimes are quite contradictory. I just found something in my commentary book on that point, more in relation to WIL book. Lawrence, himself in real life could be contradictory at times. Well, all I can say is that many people in can be condradictory and also unsure of their religious beliefs or if they even have any. I don't think in this novel L's religious beliefs have been fully explored. He is merely beginning to reject the old, conventional ways of thought. Later on, in his more advanced novels and writings, he truly does want a new order to life and forms his own ideas and thoughts about religion. Even into the last part of his life, he began to think differently about death and the hereafter. It was always a 'progression' and 'transformation' for Lawrence throughout his life. This is not easily explained without going into many aspects of his philosophy. In "Sons and Lovers", L is reflecting only the beginnings of this progression.

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I hope Virgil also gets time to give his thoughts about it, and we are not disturbing him. :)

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I did point it out to him in one of the threads. Hope he catches it. You won't be disturbing him...he already is disturbed :lol: - he would laugh himself silly hearing me say that. (Of course I am just kidding.) NO, I am sure he would be happy to add something about religion to this discussion.

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I had thought of printing it, but you see it has many chapters, and is quite long which would make it difficult for me to print it out. My printer is quite slow as well.

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I fully understand. Actually my printer is fast - I bought a nice 3 in one type last year. It scans, copies and prints in full color. Still to print out the book does take much ink. I printed out one of the L short stories and then found I had it in a book.:( What a waste of ink, right?

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If I get it late, then I would still like to read the discussion of yours about it. Sometimes it's interesting to be just an observor rather a participant! :D

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Well, I would hold off to not spoil the book. You could refer back to the discussion later - these threads seem to stay on forever, don't they? Or copy all out and put in a program on your computer. That way you can read it as you go from chapter to chapter. True that sometimes it is fun to be an observer on here - I have done that and learned much. I feel like a spy - it is rather fun!

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I am quite sure I would like it. :) Thanks!

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Good! Hope you come to any of the future L discussions.

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:blush: Ummm...yes, I wrote it. But it was just an ordinary thought...

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No need to blush. No ones thoughts are ever ordinary. It must have been important.

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Hey Janine, you seem to be knowing quite a lot about Lawrence and the books, now it seems to be as if you have been a literature student!

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Never, not at all - I graduated art college with a BFA in illustration. Actually, illustration does relate somewhat to literature, doen't it? In grade school I had problems with reading. I never could read aloud in the class, even in high school. I had a mortal fear of it and could never pronounce words correctly. I still struggle with that part of literature but I am improving since I joined Lit Net. I think more than likely I had a reading learning disability. Now I read slow but fine. Also in grade school they discovered I needed glasses - that is why I fell behind not being able to read the blackboard.
I have read a lot of books on Lawrence, all independently. It is just something I love. If I love something enough I pursue it avidly. I am pretty much obsessed with this study by now. A few years back, I was obsessed with Thomas Hardy; had to read all his books. I read some brief biographies, but not a full one, not yet...someday maybe. For now, I am back to Lawrence. With the added convenience of finding more information and books on Amazon I have bought some lately such as 'Complete Collected Poems', 'Selected Letters of L', two new biographies, and various other things.

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This seems interesting. I would like to see what he has got to say in the letter. And take as much time as you want, Janine! But according to what I read in the book, I got this feeling that Freud's theory had got nothing to do with Paul's relationship with his mother.

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Like I said - scanned some pages and found it will work and is readable. I do that tonight...the scanning part. Well, Lawrence seems to think it does in his case so I think that would apply to Paul. More on this whole idea later.

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Yes, very much. It was a tear-jerker on many places.

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Yes, parts of the book went right to the tear-ducts. Had to keep tissues on hand.

I have read a bit about him on wikipedia, but would try to look at other sources as well. :) I am glad I read Sons and Lovers in summer vacations. :D

So your vacation had begun then? Some are later. How long does it last? Enjoy while you can! Good time to read it when leisurely on vacation. I hate reading Lawrence work fast - one needs time to full absorb it.

[QUOTE]Yes, it's the last time he talks to Miriam in Sons and Lovers, before he leaves. I am myself not too sure if he certainly meant to say what I comprehended. [QUOTE]

Oh that makes more sense then. Maybe his words were not so true to what he really felt. It sounds like an upsetting scene and he was not too sure on his part, just saying those things like a man might say...you know....men, right - half the time they don't really know exactly what they want....hahahehehe!

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And I enjoy reading the information you share. :)

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Thanks, glad to share it, as I said. Gee, lately I feel like a 'wealth of knowledge' since I am pretty well read on Lawrence, by now, and it seems to be him month on Lit Net. I like being enthusiastic about it and love sharing it others. I have tons of neat photos I will post for you, also. I have to upload them to my photo hosting site first. I found interesting photos online - Lawrence/his family/friends/etc.

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A kind of. But what I actually meant was by reading the book, we couldn't have been sure the images as women he had of Clara and Miriam could apply to other women if he had been careful enough not to generalise them. It seemed to me as if Paul was generalizing women; making up his views about the whole female kind just by judging the women he knew. But perhaps I am wrong in this feeling, as I have already said... :)

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Perhaps he did generalize them somewhat. Lawrence felt his books were 'art' above all else. I think, too he wrote about women of his day; and remember this book was early in the 20th century and women did not have the freedoms or free attitudes woman have today. I felt I could relate to some of the aspects and characteristics of the women in S&L. I have been hurt in love affairs before, so I felt an affinity to Miriam, at times.
In some ways Paul's images are tainted with his attitudes towards woman. Pschology plays a big role in this, in that Lawrence felt he was in fear of women. He felt that a woman could destroy a man. We just disgussed this in the other thread. Virgil very outspokenly pointed out the psychological reasoning behind this idea. I will try to see what page it is on and you can go in and read it. It will give you some insight on L's views of women.
In many ways L is definitely a 'paradox' when it comes to women. He had tons of women friends, even feminists, and he seemed to be able to see right to the soul of a woman in describing her, yet he had this deep-seeded fear of woman, yet he wanted one woman and married and stayed faithful. Later his theories on life and marriage in a new light are born from some of this fear. Most likely his mother's influence had a lot to do with this. I found this in one of the letters: "It has been rather terrible and made me, in some respects, abnornal." Those are L's exact words, regarding his close relationship to his mother.
I've scanned some pages of text and it worked well. I will scan those letters later tonight and post the photo of Louie Burrows along with the texts.

Pensive, here's the photos I promised. I am working on the letter - the first one that Lawrence wrote about his relationship to his mother. You will find it very interesting. I was able to scan the letters directly into my Microsoft Word documents and they corrected the scan automatically. Now I have to piece together the documents and will post it tomorrow.

Jessie (Miriam)
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...seChambers.jpg

Louie Burrows (his fiance)
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ieBurrows1.jpg


Pensive, you can find much more information and photos on this great site:

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/onli...hl/index.phtml

If you go to 'Portal' also on the left, last listed, it takes you to another site that is good and has more great photos. Enjoy!

Pensive, Ok, here is the letter:

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DHL to To Rachel Annand Taylor, 3 December 1910

I have been at home now ten days. My mother is very near the end.:): Today I have been to Leicester. I did not get home till half past nine. Then I ran upstairs. Oh she was very bad. The pains had been again.
'Oh my dear' I said, 'is it the pains?'
'Not pain now - Oh the weariness' she moaned, so that I could hardly hear her. I wish she could die tonight.
My sister and I do all the nursing. My sister is only 22. I sit upstairs hours and hours till I wonder if ever it were true that I was at London. I seem to have died since, and that is an old life, dreamy.
I will tell you. My mother was a clever, ironical delicately moulded woman of good, old burgher descent. She married below her. My father was dark, ruddy, with a fine laugh. He is a

* Referring to The Trespasser?
t Referring to The White Peacock?
~ Lawrence's mother died on 9 December 191O~

coal miner. He was one of the sanguine temperament, warm and hearty, but unstable: he lacked principle, as my mother would have said. He deceived her and lied to her. She despised him - he drank.
Their marriage life has been one carnal, bloody fight. I was born hating my father: as early as ever I can remember, I shivered with horror when he touched me. He was very- bad before I was born.
This has been a kind of bond between me and my mother. We have loved each other, almost with a husband and wife love, as well as filial and maternal. We know each other by instinct. She said to my aunt - about me: 'But it has been different with him. He has seemed to be part of me.' - And that is the real case. We have been like one, so sensitive to each other that we never needed words. It has been rather terrible and has made me, in some respects, abnormal.
I think this peculiar fusion of soul (don't think me highfalutin) never comes twice in a life-time - it doesn't seem natural. When it comes it seems to distribute one's consciousness far abroad from oneself, and one understands! I think no one has got 'Understanding' except through love. Now my mother is nearly dead, and I don't quite know how I am.
I have been to Leicester today, I have met a girl* who has always been warm for me - iike a sunny happy day - and I've gone and asked her to marry me: in the train, quite unpremeditated, between Rothley and Quorn - she lives at Quorn. When I think of her I feel happy with a sort of warm radiation - she is big and dark and handsome. There were five other people in the carriage. Then when I think of my mother: - if you've ever put your hand round the bowl of a champagne glass and squeezed it and wondered how near it is to crushing-in and the wine all going through your fingers - that's how my heart feels - like the champagne glass. There is no hostility between the warm happiness and the crush of misery: but one is concentrated in my, chest, and one is diffuse - a suffusion, vague.

* Louie Burrows, according to Jessie Chambers, one of-the models for Clara Dawes.

Muriel [Jessie Chambers] is the girl I have broken with. She loves me to madness, and demands the soul of me. I have been cruel to her, and wronged her, but I did not know.
Nobody can have the soul of me. My mother has had it, and nobody can have it again. Nobody can come into my very self again, and breathe me like an atmosphere. Don't say I am hasty this time - I know. Louie - whom I wish I could marry the day after the funeral - she would never demand to drink me up and have me. She loves me - but it is a fine, warm, healthy, natural love - not like Jane Eyre, who is Muriel, but like - say Rhoda Fleming or a commoner Anna Karenina. She will never plunge her hands through my blood and feel for my soul, and make me set my teeth and shiver and fight away. Ugh - I have done well - and cruelly - tonight.
I look at my father - he is like, a cinder. It is very terrible, mis-marriage.

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I will have comments on this letter tomorrow. Very revealing letter; interesting, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Pensive

The book has some very interesting thoughts of Paul regarding this, but the trouble is they are very much contradictory. It's not easy to judge by them to which religion (or perhaps to none) he belonged.

I hope Virgil also gets time to give his thoughts about it, and we are not disturbing him. :)

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Oh you're not disturbing me. I think the question was to Lawrence's religion. For sure Lawrence was unconventional in his religious beliefs. I don't think he ever was an atheist. I think his religiuos beliefs were very similar to most of the 19th century romantics in that they believe in a spirituality that encompassed the earth and life, but not so specific and particular as in the Bible. In this sense all religions are reflective in their own cultural perspective of this overarching religion of all humanity and nature. I am not as up on the nuiances of the young Lawrence (of around Sons and Lovers timeframe) so i can't help as much there. But as Lawrence grew older, he became more enamored with a sort of paganism. I think his reasoning evolved to where this spirituality that encompassed nature was partitioned into a diety of sorts for the natural elements. For instance he felt the sun was like a god or spirit that provided a positive life energy. How serious he was I don't know. He didn't pray to a god of the sun or something like that, but he did see spirituality in them. I hope that helps.

Great pictures Janine and thanks for the letter. Did you actually type that out or were you able to find it on the internent?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Oh you're not disturbing me. I think the question was to Lawrence's religion. For sure Lawrence was unconventional in his religious beliefs. I don't think he ever was an atheist. I think his religiuos beliefs were very similar to most of the 19th century romantics in that they believe in a spirituality that encompassed the earth and life, but not so specific and particular as in the Bible. In this sense all religions are reflective in their own cultural perspective of this overarching religion of all humanity and nature. I am not as up on the nuiances of the young Lawrence (of around Sons and Lovers timeframe) so i can't help as much there. But as Lawrence grew older, he became more enamored with a sort of paganism. I think his reasoning evolved to where this spirituality that encompassed nature was partitioned into a diety of sorts for the natural elements. For instance he felt the sun was like a god or spirit that provided a positive life energy. How serious he was I don't know. He didn't pray to a god of the sun or something like that, but he did see spirituality in them. I hope that helps.

Great pictures Janine and thanks for the letter. Did you actually type that out or were you able to find it on the internent?

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Virgil, that is a great explanation to the religion question which is a really difficult question when it comes to Lawrence. I tried before to answer it, but I am sure my answer was only half-baked.
I am glad you found the photos and the letter interesting. I was able to scan both. I had to fix up the photos some in Adobe (I still have my old program but it works great); I scanned in the letter as a document straight to the file Microsoft Word, somehow it transports it there and then fixes as it processes it. I had to do a little revision in the transfer, like parts of words would drop out or punctuation. It was so much easier than typing. I am thrilled now I can do this. I have several things I wish to quote from both my library reference books and my Introduction from WIL. It takes a bit of time for scanning and fixing, but no where near as much as typing, which I hate - ugh!

Note: I just went into the post with the two women's photos and posted a link to Nottingham University online exhibit of Lawrence. I may have posted it before, but this takes you directly to the page. It is a great site to explore - wonderful photos, too.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I scanned in the letter as a document straight to the file Microsoft Word, somehow it transports it there and then fixes as it processes it. I had to do a little revision in the transfer, like parts of words would drop out or punctuation. It was so much easier than typing. I am thrilled now I can do this.

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I don't blame you for being thrilled. That is a great feature.

i am reading the book right now

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I don't blame you for being thrilled. That is a great feature.

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Yeah, and it is not even a really expensive scanner. It is a HP 3-in-one scanner, copier, printer - cost me about 50 dollars. It works great!
Virgil, I was doubly thrilled to find this and know you will appreciate it. I thought of you right away - 'pyschobable' and all! Now this I typed - was short and too much of a bother to scan:

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Letter from Lawrence to Barbara Low, 11 September 1916

I hated the Pyschoanalysis [sic] Review of Sons and Lovers.* You know I think ‘complexes’ are vicious half-statements of the Freudians: sort of can’t see wood for trees. When you’ve said Mutter-complex, you’ve said nothing – no more than if you called hysteria a nervous disease. Hysteria isn’t nerves, a complex is not simply a sex relation: far from it. – My poor book: it was as art, a fairly complete truth: so they carve a half lie out of it, and say ‘Voila.’ Swine!...

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* This may refer to A,B. Kuttner’s critical article

This is a real gem! I thought of using it for a signature. :lol:
This should answer Pensive's ideas on Freud and Lawrence, or at least how he felt about him in 1916. Gee, I remember the 'Mutter-complex' from my college days.

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Originally Posted by farnoosh

i am reading the book right now

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Hi farnoosh and welcome to this site. Great - glad you are reading the book; hope you enjoy it. Post any time or get back to us with comments when you are done. Meanwhile, you may want to read the commentary already posted. I am sure you will find it all quite interesting and it will be very helpful. Hope to see you on here again real soon.

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Letter from Lawrence to Barbara Low, 11 September 1916

I hated the Pyschoanalysis [sic] Review of Sons and Lovers.* You know I think ‘complexes’ are vicious half-statements of the Freudians: sort of can’t see wood for trees. When you’ve said Mutter-complex, you’ve said nothing – no more than if you called hysteria a nervous disease. Hysteria isn’t nerves, a complex is not simply a sex relation: far from it. – My poor book: it was as art, a fairly complete truth: so they carve a half lie out of it, and say ‘Voila.’ Swine!...

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Originally Posted by Janine

This is a real gem! I thought of using it for a signature. :lol:
This should answer Pensive's ideas on Freud and Lawrence, or at least how he felt about him in 1916. Gee, I remember the 'Mutter-complex' from my college days.

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:lol: :lol: Fabulous.

Manny, yes, what a find!

By the way, my new WIL book has a fairly good chronology in the beginning of it's pages. Now I won't have to ask you all the time when things were written. It pretty much lays it all out. I think the short stories are included but it might not break down every story and pinpoint it's exact date. I will still need you for that one. ;)

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Originally Posted by Janine

Pensive, You know, it is characteristic that Lawrence's characters sometimes are quite contradictory. I just found something in my commentary book on that point, more in relation to WIL book. Lawrence, himself in real life could be contradictory at times. Well, all I can say is that many people in can be condradictory and also unsure of their religious beliefs or if they even have any. I don't think in this novel L's religious beliefs have been fully explored. He is merely beginning to reject the old, conventional ways of thought. Later on, in his more advanced novels and writings, he truly does want a new order to life and forms his own ideas and thoughts about religion. Even into the last part of his life, he began to think differently about death and the hereafter. It was always a 'progression' and 'transformation' for Lawrence throughout his life. This is not easily explained without going into many aspects of his philosophy. In "Sons and Lovers", L is reflecting only the beginnings of this progression.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Oh you're not disturbing me. I think the question was to Lawrence's religion. For sure Lawrence was unconventional in his religious beliefs. I don't think he ever was an atheist. I think his religiuos beliefs were very similar to most of the 19th century romantics in that they believe in a spirituality that encompassed the earth and life, but not so specific and particular as in the Bible. In this sense all religions are reflective in their own cultural perspective of this overarching religion of all humanity and nature. I am not as up on the nuiances of the young Lawrence (of around Sons and Lovers timeframe) so i can't help as much there. But as Lawrence grew older, he became more enamored with a sort of paganism. I think his reasoning evolved to where this spirituality that encompassed nature was partitioned into a diety of sorts for the natural elements. For instance he felt the sun was like a god or spirit that provided a positive life energy. How serious he was I don't know. He didn't pray to a god of the sun or something like that, but he did see spirituality in them. I hope that helps.

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Thanks a lot, Virgil and Janine. This helps in understanding about his religious beliefs, yes. :)

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I fully understand. Actually my printer is fast - I bought a nice 3 in one type last year. It scans, copies and prints in full color. Still to print out the book does take much ink. I printed out one of the L short stories and then found I had it in a book.:( What a waste of ink, right?

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You don't know sometimes how good it can do you! There was this course book I had about a year ago. And I lost it. Brought another one, felt a bit bad, but after sometime I found the same old book. But then again before one day of my exams, I lost one of those books. I had much to study that night for exams. And the shop was not near. If you lose one book (though I hope it never happens), you would still be having it. Or you can gift it to a friend as well! :)

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Well, I would hold off to not spoil the book. You could refer back to the discussion later - these threads seem to stay on forever, don't they? Or copy all out and put in a program on your computer. That way you can read it as you go from chapter to chapter. True that sometimes it is fun to be an observer on here - I have done that and learned much. I feel like a spy - it is rather fun!

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:D

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Good! Hope you come to any of the future L discussions.

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Yeah, me too!

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No need to blush. No ones thoughts are ever ordinary. It must have been important.

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But sometimes the thoughts can be really silly! :p But yes, no denying, even the silliest thoughts can prove to be important...

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Never, not at all - I graduated art college with a BFA in illustration. Actually, illustration does relate somewhat to literature, doen't it? In grade school I had problems with reading. I never could read aloud in the class, even in high school. I had a mortal fear of it and could never pronounce words correctly. I still struggle with that part of literature but I am improving since I joined Lit Net. I think more than likely I had a reading learning disability. Now I read slow but fine. Also in grade school they discovered I needed glasses - that is why I fell behind not being able to read the blackboard.

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That's really good you are improving now! :) You know sometimes I think it would have been much better if I were a slow reader. I don't consider myself a very fast reader, but sometimes I read a book containing about three hundred pages in a day (but that depends on the book as well). On the other hand, there is this chance of missing things, or forgetting what you have read. When one reads a bit fast, he doesn't always get time to grasp everything.

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I have read a lot of books on Lawrence, all independently. It is just something I love. If I love something enough I pursue it avidly. I am pretty much obsessed with this study by now. A few years back, I was obsessed with Thomas Hardy; had to read all his books. I read some brief biographies, but not a full one, not yet...someday maybe. For now, I am back to Lawrence. With the added convenience of finding more information and books on Amazon I have bought some lately such as 'Complete Collected Poems', 'Selected Letters of L', two new biographies, and various other things.

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Hehe, you a real Lawrence-fan then! :) By the way, I have read The Mayor of Casterbridge of Hardly as well, and liked it very much. :) It was sentimental, especially the Henchard's will in the end brought tears in my eyes. I have tried to read Return of the Native but couldn't get into it. I might try it again in these holidays though.

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So your vacation had begun then? Some are later. How long does it last? Enjoy while you can! Good time to read it when leisurely on vacation. I hate reading Lawrence work fast - one needs time to full absorb it.

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Yes, there is quite a time left. More than a month. :)

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Oh that makes more sense then. Maybe his words were not so true to what he really felt. It sounds like an upsetting scene and he was not too sure on his part, just saying those things like a man might say...you know....men, right - half the time they don't really know exactly what they want....hahahehehe!

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Men might say the same thing about women! :p

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Perhaps he did generalize them somewhat. Lawrence felt his books were 'art' above all else. I think, too he wrote about women of his day; and remember this book was early in the 20th century and women did not have the freedoms or free attitudes woman have today. I felt I could relate to some of the aspects and characteristics of the women in S&L. I have been hurt in love affairs before, so I felt an affinity to Miriam, at times.
In some ways Paul's images are tainted with his attitudes towards woman. Pschology plays a big role in this, in that Lawrence felt he was in fear of women. He felt that a woman could destroy a man. We just disgussed this in the other thread. Virgil very outspokenly pointed out the psychological reasoning behind this idea. I will try to see what page it is on and you can go in and read it. It will give you some insight on L's views of women.
In many ways L is definitely a 'paradox' when it comes to women. He had tons of women friends, even feminists, and he seemed to be able to see right to the soul of a woman in describing her, yet he had this deep-seeded fear of woman, yet he wanted one woman and married and stayed faithful. Later his theories on life and marriage in a new light are born from some of this fear. Most likely his mother's influence had a lot to do with this. I found this in one of the letters: "It has been rather terrible and made me, in some respects, abnornal." Those are L's exact words, regarding his close relationship to his mother.

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Reading about D.H. Lawrence (from both his perspective and Paul's), I have got the feeling I didn't like him very much. We all have weaknesses, but some have more control over them than others which is also a reason why we like some and don't like the others. If it were not for the fact Lawrence had written a really good book like Sons and Lovers, I would not have liked him at all. :p At many places, Paul seems like a person thinkin very highly of himself. And so does Lawrence (even more), by what you have told me, and by what I have read about him.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Pensive, here's the photos I promised. I am working on the letter - the first one that Lawrence wrote about his relationship to his mother. You will find it very interesting. I was able to scan the letters directly into my Microsoft Word documents and they corrected the scan automatically. Now I have to piece together the documents and will post it tomorrow.

Miriam
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...seChambers.jpg

Louie Burrows
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ieBurrows1.jpg


Pensive, you can find much more information and photos on this great site:

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/onli...hl/index.phtml

If you go to 'Portal' also on the left, last listed, it takes you to another site that is good and has more great photos. Enjoy!

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I really thank you, Janine, for posting the pictures. Interesting pictures! Even Miriam seems to be smiling. The image I get of Miriam is a girl who is usually very grave, but here she is different from the image I had of her in my mind! :)

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Originally Posted by Janine

DHL to To Rachel Annand Taylor, 3 December 1910

I have been at home now ten days. My mother is very near the end.: Today I have been to Leicester. I did not get home till half past nine. Then I ran upstairs. Oh she was very bad. The pains had been again.
'Oh my dear' I said, 'is it the pains?'
'Not pain now - Oh the weariness' she moaned, so that I could hardly hear her. I wish she could die tonight.
My sister and I do all the nursing. My sister is only 22. I sit upstairs hours and hours till I wonder if ever it were true that I was at London. I seem to have died since, and that is an old life, dreamy.
I will tell you. My mother was a clever, ironical delicately moulded woman of good, old burgher descent. She married below her. My father was dark, ruddy, with a fine laugh. He is a

* Referring to The Trespasser?
t Referring to The White Peacock?
~ Lawrence's mother died on 9 December 191O~

coal miner. He was one of the sanguine temperament, warm and hearty, but unstable: he lacked principle, as my mother would have said. He deceived her and lied to her. She despised him - he drank.
Their marriage life has been one carnal, bloody fight. I was born hating my father: as early as ever I can remember, I shivered with horror when he touched me. He was very- bad before I was born.
This has been a kind of bond between me and my mother. We have loved each other, almost with a husband and wife love, as well as filial and maternal. We know each other by instinct. She said to my aunt - about me: 'But it has been different with him. He has seemed to be part of me.' - And that is the real case. We have been like one, so sensitive to each other that we never needed words. It has been rather terrible and has made me, in some respects, abnormal.
I think this peculiar fusion of soul (don't think me highfalutin) never comes twice in a life-time - it doesn't seem natural. When it comes it seems to distribute one's consciousness far abroad from oneself, and one understands! I think no one has got 'Understanding' except through love. Now my mother is nearly dead, and I don't quite know how I am.
I have been to Leicester today, I have met a girl* who has always been warm for me - iike a sunny happy day - and I've gone and asked her to marry me: in the train, quite unpremeditated, between Rothley and Quorn - she lives at Quorn. When I think of her I feel happy with a sort of warm radiation - she is big and dark and handsome. There were five other people in the carriage. Then when I think of my mother: - if you've ever put your hand round the bowl of a champagne glass and squeezed it and wondered how near it is to crushing-in and the wine all going through your fingers - that's how my heart feels - like the champagne glass. There is no hostility between the warm happiness and the crush of misery: but one is concentrated in my, chest, and one is diffuse - a suffusion, vague.

* Louie Burrows, according to Jessie Chambers, one of-the models for Clara Dawes.

Muriel [Jessie Chambers] is the girl I have broken with. She loves me to madness, and demands the soul of me. I have been cruel to her, and wronged her, but I did not know.
Nobody can have the soul of me. My mother has had it, and nobody can have it again. Nobody can come into my very self again, and breathe me like an atmosphere. Don't say I am hasty this time - I know. Louie - whom I wish I could marry the day after the funeral - she would never demand to drink me up and have me. She loves me - but it is a fine, warm, healthy, natural love - not like Jane Eyre, who is Muriel, but like - say Rhoda Fleming or a commoner Anna Karenina. She will never plunge her hands through my blood and feel for my soul, and make me set my teeth and shiver and fight away. Ugh - I have done well - and cruelly - tonight.
I look at my father - he is like, a cinder. It is very terrible, mis-marriage.

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Now, Janine, these two letters are extremely interesting. Okay, when I try to relate Freud's theory with this, it still doesn't make any sense. You see - Lawrence calls his father 'very bad' even before marriage. Having a father you dislike is not I think very easy to cope with. And I don't see why couldn't the boy be closer to his mother - the mother who loved him - was good to him rather than being bad. You see he said himself he didn't like being touched by his father. So his relationship, about which he mentions, 'almost-husband and wife like" (there is an almost) seems understandable to me.

As for the second letter, I think it makes even more clear why broke off with Miriam. She wanted his soul. And he had already been very much attached to his mother, and sometimes he regretted it. He had not wanted to be the same with Miriam simply because he didn't like being that. He had wanted to have a part of his soul away from anybody, his mother, his sister, whomever.

Thanks again! :)

Pensive, excellent post! I will get back to you soon. I expended all my energy in WIL, posting just now. I had to think real hard to try to convey things I have been reading, additional to the novel, in my commentary books. I want to scan some of the "Sons and Lovers" to convey to you, as well, what I have read and studied. I am tired today and I have to go eat my dinner, but hope to post something later in response to your great post. See you then....

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Thanks a lot, Virgil and Janine. This helps in understanding about his religious beliefs, yes. :)

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Hi Pensive, I am finally back, but of course, real-life is still calling to me. I just ran out to do some errands; in-between doing laundry. But I have time to post you a reply. I am so glad our posts have helped you with your religious belief questions. It is, as I said, a very hard thing to answer decisively or finally. Virgil knows more of the theology than I do. I plan on reading L's very last posthumeously published novel "Apocalypse" sometime - maybe in the summer. I took it out of the library to look over and Virgil said he wrote that about his religious ideas, which were rather strange, during the last years of his life. But I have a curiosity to read it. I found it in the theology section of my library.

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You don't know sometimes how good it can do you! There was this course book I had about a year ago. And I lost it. Brought another one, felt a bit bad, but after sometime I found the same old book. But then again before one day of my exams, I lost one of those books. I had much to study that night for exams. And the shop was not near. If you lose one book (though I hope it never happens), you would still be having it. Or you can gift it to a friend as well! :)

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Yes, the story may be helpful printed out after all. I could use that one to mark certain passages - right? I won't lose my Lawrence books; I guard them with my life! :lol:
Figures you found the book after you bought it. That usually happens to me with drugstore items and incidentals. I can't find them for the life of me, I buy a new one, then very mysteriously the old one appears. My friend said that if you are hunting an item go look in the first place you searched; amazingly this usually works. You can easily overlook something. You are so funny, finding the book and then losing one again. That is really a good story! I can give the short story to someone also, who needs a copy. Maybe someone on here who needs it - mail it to them.

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Yeah, me too!

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So glad you agree and definitely, we need you in other discussions. You are such a intuitive and intelligent discusser:thumbs_up , and you are so nice, too. The short story thread it a good one to start with and also L's poetry is quite nice and very interesting. Right now ktd222 and I are discussing "Baby Tortoise" in our 'Tortoise poems' thread. There are 4 Lawrence threads active right now. Fine with me, since I love the author's work. "Tortoise" discussions are going slowly, but quite well. Virgil also stops in with comments. Anybody is welcome, of course, especially you....hint hint....;)

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But sometimes the thoughts can be really silly! :p But yes, no denying, even the silliest thoughts can prove to be important...

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Absolutely true! :p Many times there emerges a real gem amongst the silly thoughts in life and in posts.

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That's really good you are improving now! :) You know sometimes I think it would have been much better if I were a slow reader. I don't consider myself a very fast reader, but sometimes I read a book containing about three hundred pages in a day (but that depends on the book as well). On the other hand, there is this chance of missing things, or forgetting what you have read. When one reads a bit fast, he doesn't always get time to grasp everything.

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Thanks, yes, I think I have improved, but mostly in recognising certain words and finally being able to pronounce them correctly. I think I had a problem with that and oft times just skipped over a word I did not know. Now I do try to sound out the word different ways and I look things up often. I have always hated doing that, but I make myself now. I want to understand the texts better. Well, you seem to read much faster than I do. I can't read that much in a day - 300 pages - wow. But you are right I think us slow readers do absorb more by being slow and careful. I never skim a book or skip parts. I am rather a purest that way. I would feel I was missing something. I am very intense and concentrated when I read, so maybe being so slow is not that bad, afterall. I very much enjoy reading when I have the time. Someone once told me there are two kinds of readers - ones that read each and every word (that is me) and others read phrases, but not the words 'aloud' in ones mind (as I do). It only proves we all have our own styles of reading and that is how it should be. Teachers try to fit everyone into a mold and some rebell. I think I did. The mold was not right for me, I am sure of it.

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Hehe, you a real Lawrence-fan then! :) By the way, I have read The Mayor of Casterbridge of Hardly as well, and liked it very much. :) It was sentimental, especially the Henchard's will in the end brought tears in my eyes. I have tried to read Return of the Native but couldn't get into it. I might try it again in these holidays though.

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Oh yes, to the first statement. But to the second about Hardy; I am also a big fan of his writing. I have read nearly everything he wrote. I do this; I discover a writer and then try to read most of his work, if I really like him. What is not to like about Hardy? The man was brilliant! I had first joined a literature group online - The Thomas Hardy Association - but it was not a forum, rather a literature list and eveyday one would receive tons of emails for everyone on the list. It was interesting, at first and I learned much, but it got really tiresome after a while. However, I made one very good friend on there and he has filled me in on all of Hardy's background and basis for his books. He lived with his wife in Costa Rica, but now resides back in his native land, Japan. He always says "Return of the Native" is like his story. He is very nice and respectful and came to visit me last spring and to meet my family. Next time he plans on bringing Yoko, his wife. That will be such a treat. So, see how fate can work. Isn't it a wonderful story?
I also love "Mayor of Casterbridge". I own the BBC miniseries and saw it when I was midway through the book. I have to say they did a fine job on the film. I cry real tears everytime I get to that ending, too. I can hardly take it. It is a fine book, indeed. I love Hardy's plots and plot twists. Of course, "Tess" is great. Have you read "Tess of the D'Urbervilles" yet? I have the film of that one, too, by Roman Polanski - wonderful! I also have the film of "Return of the Native" and "The Woodlanders". I set out to get any Hardy adaptation I could a few years ago. Oh, if manolia were only reading this now she would die laughing. She and I joke all the time about films. I particually liked "The Woodlanders" for some reason. I cry in that one, too. Quess I have a weakness for the sentimental.
I have known other people who said they had a difficult time getting into the reading of "Return of the Native" and also of "Jude the Obscure". Both novels are a little more psyhological and involved, if you know what I mean. Maybe that is the reason. Someday maybe you will read them and I don't think you will regret it.

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Yes, there is quite a time left. More than a month. :)

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Glad you have a whole month left for vacation. I suppose you plan a lot of reading, but go enjoy the outdoors and real life, too. Is it warm there where you live?

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Men might say the same thing about women! :p

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So true - it all depends on ones vantage point.

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Reading about D.H. Lawrence (from both his perspective and Paul's), I have got the feeling I didn't like him very much. We all have weaknesses, but some have more control over them than others which is also a reason why we like some and don't like the others. If it were not for the fact Lawrence had written a really good book like Sons and Lovers, I would not have liked him at all. :p At many places, Paul seems like a person thinkin very highly of himself. And so does Lawrence (even more), by what you have told me, and by what I have read about him.

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Well, he certainly knew he had talent and greatness, but I don't think Lawrence is someone you could call conceited, not at all. He lived a very simple life actually, never owned much or any property (ranch in New Mexico was kept in his wife's name - he refused to own property), and most people who meet him took to him right away and liked him emensely. He had a great many friends during his lifetime. He had a good sense of humor according to his friends and a very friendly way. From all my reading I get quite another view of the man. He was not a saint; that is for certain and he had his faults and his characteristic ways and attitudes/quirps, but one has to understand all the obstacles the man was up against. The press and the critics crucified him/his novels. Then by marrying an already married and divorced woman, Lawrence again was crucified. Then on top of that, she was German and that was just prior to WWI, so they was even suspect of being spies, which was totally ludicrious. Then his passport was confiscated and they could not leave England when they wished to. He was hassled in the draft and the army recruiting office, when he was certainly chronically ill with undiagnosed TB. He fought illness of the lungs all his life. He had a great zest for living, but his days were numbered and he probably knew it underneath his great fortitude and his denial. After I realised all the emense obstacles of his life, I better understood him and had the greater respect for the man.
So, by our earlier writings, I don't want to give you the wrong impression of the actual man, Lawrence. Paul may come off as a character who is conceited and proud, but I think the real Lawrence was..... "just a man, take him for all his faults". Hamlet. I have read some of the letters he wrote and I feel like those are a small true window into the real man's soul. I really liked what I read, so far. The early letters are rather endearing and intimate and in these Lawrence seems humble and very respectful of those he is writing to. He seems to be a nice man, very sensitive and intuitive. He seems to be struggling along like any fine young author would. And most importantly he seems to love life. He never once felt sorry for himself and he wrote a wonderful poem to this effect - one of his poems about animals. It mimics his own situation in life. I think the "Baby Tortoise" poem is very suggestive of the weight that Lawrence had to carry in his struggle against the world.

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I really thank you, Janine, for posting the pictures. Interesting pictures! Even Miriam seems to be smiling. The image I get of Miriam is a girl who is usually very grave, but here she is different from the image I had of her in my mind! :)

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I knew you would like the photos. They say "a picture says a thousand words". Think that is how the saying goes. It is so true. I feel I could have known these people when I see their photos. They become so human to me. I meant to write Jesse for Miriam over her picture. I am sure you realised that.

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Now, Janine, these two letters are extremely interesting. Okay, when I try to relate Freud's theory with this, it still doesn't make any sense. You see - Lawrence calls his father 'very bad' even before marriage. Having a father you dislike is not I think very easy to cope with. And I don't see why couldn't the boy be closer to his mother - the mother who loved him - was good to him rather than being bad. You see he said himself he didn't like being touched by his father. So his relationship, about which he mentions, 'almost-husband and wife like" (there is an almost) seems understandable to me.

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Yes, I found these letters to be real gems; so revealing and 'telling', aren't they? They do explain so much about his attitudes towards his parents. I very much agree with you, that naturally he would be closer to his mother because of his situation and their strange marriage. I think he was probably even more precious to his mother, who lost his older brother to death; also playing into this is the fact that L was sickly as a baby; he almost died at birth, in fact, and needed greater care/mothering as a child; there were times his life hung by a thread, due to his weak lungs. Surely, all this would make a mother more protective and the two grow closer together in their relationship.

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As for the second letter, I think it makes even more clear why broke off with Miriam. She wanted his soul. And he had already been very much attached to his mother, and sometimes he regretted it. He had not wanted to be the same with Miriam simply because he didn't like being that. He had wanted to have a part of his soul away from anybody, his mother, his sister, whomever.

Thanks again! :)

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Yes, that letter makes it much clearer to me, as well. The 'soul possessiveness' issue arises in his novel "Women in Love". It is quite prominent and plays into the main theme of the book. I like the way you described and explained that aspect of why he did not want it to happen again with Miriam - the possessing of his soul. That is quite intuitive and well put. I think you are absolutely right on this point. This actually can help us understand WIL better and why he feels marriage should be not a merging of two souls but a separateness that is orbiting in perfect harmony. Interesting how this notion relates directly to that idea. I understand it even better now.

Pensive, you are quite welcome and thank you for your great post and all the good ideas here - not silly one bit......;)

thanks for yuou explanations I am reading the book now and the writings here make me understand clearly.

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Originally Posted by protagonist

thanks for yuou explanations I am reading the book now and the writings here make me understand clearly.

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Hi protagonist, and welcome to this site! Glad the information helped you to understand the book more clearly. A few of us have been discussing and planning to read "Sons and Lovers" sometime in the fall months. Hope you can join in to our discussions then. Enjoy your reading!

Hello Everyone!
I am revitalizing this thread - "Sons and Lovers" (reading for October 07) and hope to have a really great discussion on the book. So, currently please begin reading it; if you don't own a copy, I believe it is here on this site online, at least to get you started.

I read the book last year for the first time - yes, hard to believe for those who know how enthused I am all the time about Lawrence's work, but it seemed when I tried to read it years ago, I had some problems getting started - for one thing the dialect language of the father really seemed difficult for me to comprehend. So if you run into the same problem, you might want to re-read those passages and eventually they will become clear to you and you will get the flow of how he speaks. By the time I did finally read this fine book, I had found out it was basically autobiographical or as they say in the movies, 'based on a true story'. I don't know about anyone else, but I am always more fascinated know a story, film or novel is based on truth. Therefore, this fact made me want to read the book even more, since I had read several biographies about the author, all very interesting.

"Sons and Lovers" is a fine book and the novel that gave Lawrence his fame and established him initially as an important author. It is not his first published book. His first published book was "The White Peacock" and next "The Trespasser". "Sons and Lovers" followed and received critical acclaim, launching Lawrence as a prominent author.

Lawrence was quoted as saying something like, he would never write another novel quite like this one. He knew the novels to follow would be different, even at that early juncture in his life. He knew the book was very personal and contained his adolescence and his early life story and conflicts.
I think you will enjoy the book very much. For me it will be a repeat reading which I am looking forward to very much. Even Lawrence felt that books should be read twice, at the least. One does always see and observe so much more in a second reading. I know some of you have already read this book recently, so that a reviewing of the book is all you will probably need. We don't need to discuss at a fast pace and there is no pressure to end the discussions, so take your time and let us hopefully explore many aspects of this fine book and DHL.

Enjoy your reading!

Enjoy everyone. It is a great novel. I'll pop in and out, based on what i remember, but unfortunately my schedule doesn't allow for another novel at this point.

I am half-way through it, waiting for the discussion to begin,see you!

Half way through!!!! You are a fast reader! Hehehehe you have to bare with me since i am such a slow poke :D
I have finished the first chapter :thumbs_up

The first chapter has some of the most beautiful descriptions in the book, I think.

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

The first chapter has some of the most beautiful descriptions in the book, I think.

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Hello Manolia and amalia - Great to see both of you here! Pensive will arrive soon. She emailed me today.
Virgil, glad you can pop in and out and I think somethings will definitely come back to you as we discuss. I understand that you can't fully tackle another book. Yes, amelia - the descriptions in the book certainly marvelous and beautiful. I love Lawrence's descriptions of nature the best. Apparently, you are a fast reader, so we don't want to disappoint, but maybe give a few more days to let others get into reading the book. Some have only just found out about this thread. Don't worry, Manolia, you will have time to catch up. I am still finishing up the other L book I am reading, but I can accomplish that tonight (I hope). Mine will be a second reading, anyway. I do remember much of the book. Also, I scanned much commentary on the book - really good stuff to add to our discussions. Virgil send me (lended me a book) on who's who in Lawrence's work. This should aid us also and make the book more interesting. I think all this will make for a great discussion, don't you? I am excited! I have long wanted to discuss this book in-depth with someone. This will be a great group.:thumbs_up

Yes i agree with both of you. The descriptions are pretty tense. I liked the two scenes where the breach in their relationship is described. I also liked very much the part where Mrs Morel is finally disillusioned.

Janine and everyone else, i have spotted the first flower referances:

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She became aware of something about her. With an effort she
roused herself to see what it was that penetrated her consciousness.
The tall white lilies were reeling in the moonlight, and the air was
charged with their perfume, as with a presence. Mrs. Morel gasped
slightly in fear. She touched the big, pallid flowers on their petals,
then shivered. They seemed to be stretching in the moonlight.
She put her hand into one white bin: the gold scarcely showed
on her fingers by moonlight. She bent down to look at the binful
of yellow pollen; but it only appeared dusky. Then she drank a deep
draught of the scent. It almost made her dizzy.

......


When she came to herself she was tired for sleep. Languidly she
looked about her; the clumps of white phlox seemed like bushes spread
with linen; a moth ricochetted over them, and right across the garden.
Following it with her eye roused her. A few whiffs of the raw,
strong scent of phlox invigorated her. She passed along the path,
hesitating at the white rose-bush. It smelled sweet and simple.
She touched the white ruffles of the roses. Their fresh scent
and cool, soft leaves reminded her of the morning-time and sunshine.
She was very fond of them. But she was tired, and wanted to sleep.
In the mysterious out-of-doors she felt forlorn.

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Question:
Aren't lilies supposed to be a symbol of death???

I think so, manolia, yes.I remember when we used to read Jacobean Theatre and the lilies were emphasised as such.
And Janine, my favourite "Lawrence" descriptions exist in "The Rainbow". Especially those in the chapters of the "child" Ursula.

manolia, thanks for quoting that. Good observation on your part and suggesting the significance of the lilies. I am thinking now of Easter and the Easter lilies - the pure white ones. It is funny but when you quoted this I don't recall reading it at all. Gee, now I can't wait to pick up the book once again - it will feel like a long lost friend, a really good old friend. Books can bring comfort in the words sometimes and I found reading just these lines comforted me and brought me closer to a core of truth about life and how we feel looking at the beauty in a lovely flowers. It is a sensitive and lovely writing - these two paragraphs.

amalia , thanks, too, for you comments and supporting the idea of death being significant for the emphasis on lily, and backing that idea up with the Jacobean reference. Probably in Shakespeare we can also find many or some reference's to lilies and death. He made use of a lot of flowers and their significance. A friend of mine made a quilt on all of Shakespeare's flowers. I thought that was interesting.

It has been eons since I read "The Rainbow" and it is on my list of L books I must re-read, perhaps after this book or after we all read "Lady Chatterly's Lover" - although I have already read that book twice. I think I shall have a totally different perspective when re-reading "The Rainbow". I think this will also have to be one we eventually discuss in this forum, don't you? In the meantime, I will have to check out those chapters "Child" that you mention. They sound interesting.
There are also some stunning descriptions in Lawrence's first published novel "The White Peacock"...I read that one last year and liked it, although it is not as developed as "Sons and Lovers". I still go back to some of the paragraphs and re-read them - they are so lovely and full of deeper meaning.

Good start to this discussion. :thumbs_up Hope I can dig up something more to add tonight.

Any Lawrence masterpiece is included in my favourite-book list. The way he depicts complex human emotions, and especially his boldness with sexuality, is astonishing. I cannot forget the "fight scene" in "Women In Love"...

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

Any Lawrence masterpiece is included in my favourite-book list. The way he depicts complex human emotions, and especially his boldness with sexuality, is astonishing. I cannot forget the "fight scene" in "Women In Love"...

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That's why I like his works so much. He not only makes the characters vivid and real-like with thеsе psychological descriptions, he gave then unusual deepness. The complex characters he creates are so interesting and they aren't alike. He doesn't use some characters that are more like one person in different patterns, all his characters are different and genuine, they are all unique and still bound by the Lawrence tendency to make them as complex as possible.

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

Any Lawrence masterpiece is included in my favourite-book list. The way he depicts complex human emotions, and especially his boldness with sexuality, is astonishing. I cannot forget the "fight scene" in "Women In Love"...

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Wonderful, amalia! I have finally met another avid Lawrence fan. I think Manolia is becoming one quickly and Pensive as well and a few others. I am delighted. I fully agree with you. I think Lawrence has a number of masterpieces, to say the least. He was quite a unique author. I cannot forget several key scenes in "Women in Love" - first the drowning scene - particularly the part when the couple is found intertwined in the lake and mud, second the wrestling scene you mention, also the scene when Birkin goes off into the fields - was that the height of sensuality? I think one of the last scenes in the snow with Gerald going off by himself is simply awesome, brilliant, heart-breaking. All these scenes are so graphic and stay with the reader for a long time, maybe even forever. Lawrence paints such a vivid and indellible impression on one's mind and sensibilities, don't you think? He penetrates ones very soul with these images. I still think often of everyone of those scenes.

Manolia and Amalia, I have now read about 15 pages of the beginning of "Sons and Lovers". I enjoyed every word last night. I am anxious to resume tonight and get to the part Manolia quoted about the flowers.

What strikes me in these first pages is the way in which Lawrence presents his characters - the characters of the mother and the father and their relationship. If you notice the first few years seeme to be happy years for both of them and then crept in the discontent and the problems - financial seemed to be the first and then the issue of Mr. Morel's drinking problem. From the beginning Lawrence shows us that the two married people are quite different in background, attitudes, refinement, and personality.
Lawrence also fills these beginning pages with the tone and atmosphere of the area where they live with a keen sense of things changing and more mines and collieries being established and encrouching on the land and the beauty of nature. Already we can feel the ugliness of industrialisation and the mining community, that later occuppied much of Lawrence's themes in his writing. The fact of the man's love of dancing and being outgoing and exerburent is also quite evident as the wife, in contrast, is more retiring and does not let herself go with the dancing and such. She is more introverted and the husband more of an extrovert. The mismatch is evident. Also explored in this short amount of pages is the interference that has been going on behind the wife's back as to the financial position of the couple so that we see the husband has not been honest with his wife. His mother is still protecting him and saving him from ruin, and the wife has been unaware of this deceit up until now. Now obviously, a sense of resentment will set in.

Please let me know of your impressions, also, of the first part of the book. I hope this sounds accurate. I was just rambling on with my thoughts and my impressions so far.

I have gotten several PM's from people about this thread and the short story thread. Pensive will be joining us for both. Quark is busy with advanced studies and will be taking part when he can. Virgil will be popping in from time to time, as he is quite busy now with his job and real life;) If I left anyone out, I am sorry. I have to go back and check my PM box. Opps -Yes, I did forget to mention someone. Joining us will be the amazing reader, Alexei....she reads at a fast pace, so watch out for her, gang. I communicated with her in another thread and she is very enthused about joining both groups; said she would be reading for some discussion sometime next week.

What have always troubled me-from the first time I read the book until now that I'm re-reading- is the relationship of Paul's parents. I dare to say that there is a certain aura of passion between them. As you said, Janine, there are two people that couldn't be more different. Perhaps, it is the passion of the "opposite". Is there love?

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Originally Posted by Alexei

That's why I like his works so much. He not only makes the characters vivid and real-like with thеsе psychological descriptions, he gave then unusual deepness. The complex characters he creates are so interesting and they aren't alike. He doesn't use some characters that are more like one person in different patterns, all his characters are different and genuine, they are all unique and still bound by the Lawrence tendency to make them as complex as possible.

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You are absolutely right, Alexei!

How funny - I just revised my post and there you appeared, Alexei - I was thinking of you and added you into the names. You must have read my mind. Anyway, how great to see you here! :thumbs_up and discussing already. We have such a great group this time around!

And I fully agree with what you have written about L's characters being complex and none two alike. Very well expressed!

amalia, I think it will take much time to answer that question you poss, as to whether the mother and father truly love each other. I do think passion did exist at one time.

On with the book!

I have been thinking on Amalia's question and the resume by Janine and there is something that strikes me as interesting when we compare The morels relationship with the one between Gerald and Gudrun in "Women in Love" (I hope you don't mind that I am directing my post to comparing with other Lawrence's works). The relation love-hate in the two couples relations seems interesting to me, after in both them the partners are actually more like antagonist. Yet while between Gerald and Gudrun this antagonism take the shape of some kind of hatred, between the Morels is different, Mrs. Morel is more like disappointed and hurt, she doesn't actually try to fight back. That makes me think that she actually loves him at least at the beginning of the book (there is a certain point in the novel when the author said that she just start to reconcile because she doesn't love him anymore), because she is a strong person and otherwise she would have tried to do something to fight back, as it was in the case Gerald/Gudrun.

Janine, thanks for the great introduction. It's very kind:)
And I have a good news - I am planning to read "Odour of Chrysanthemums" tonight :) Soon I will be ready to join the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Alexei

I have been thinking on Amalia's question and the resume by Janine and there is something that strikes me as interesting when we compare The morels relationship with the one between Gerald and Gudrun in "Women in Love" (I hope you don't mind that I am directing my post to comparing with other Lawrence's works). The relation love-hate in the two couples relations seems interesting to me, after in both them the partners are actually more like antagonist. Yet while between Gerald and Gudrun this antagonism take the shape of some kind of hatred, between the Morels is different, Mrs. Morel is more like disappointed and hurt, she doesn't actually try to fight back. That makes me think that she actually loves him at least at the beginning of the book (there is a certain point in the novel when the author said that she just start to reconcile because she doesn't love him anymore), because she is a strong person and otherwise she would have tried to do something to fight back, as it was in the case Gerald/Gudrun.

Janine, thanks for the great introduction. It's very kind:)
And I have a good news - I am planning to read "Odour of Chrysanthemums" tonight :) Soon I will be ready to join the discussion.

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Alexei, no problem comparing, but don't give too much of the novel away, or the ending. I usually do the same thing. I like to compare the stories and the novels. Oops, just realised I gave away a few scenes in my earlier post; hope anyone who did not read WIL did not notice. I know that Manolia read WIL and so did a few others. I don't think that Pensive has, however. I agree with your observations. It seems that Mrs. Morel gives in after a time and then directs her concentration and love towards her sons - thus the title - "Sons and Lovers" and the main themes of the book. She become somewhat obsessed in her sons and so she redirects her love to them, which eventually is felt as a smothering type love. I do think that the relationships in each novel have their similarities and then again their extreme differences. I do think the initial attraction for the Morals was the opposite attributes they saw in each other. Opposites do seem often to attract to make up for the missing element in one person - perhaps one person is quiet and the other more outgoing. One sees that quality and is attracted by it. However, often this combination does not have staying power or permanence. Much about life and relationships can be learned from reading Lawrence's work. We don't always act sensible or logical either and often Lawrence explores this aspect of human nature. I think this is what draws people to his writings. We see people fully exposed - the good and the bad, the pretty and the ugly...it is a truthful assessment of how people are and how they react to each other. I think Mrs. Moral settles finally, into a very inert state of being with her husband and that relationship, but first, I think the relationship is quite turbulent. Perhaps it is a sort of love/hate relationship similiar to Gerald and Gudrun in WIL. The Morels go through many stages and we see the changes in both, and then when the children arrive things further change in their relationship to each other.
Alexei, so glad you found the thread and are participating. You seem very enthusiastic - I like that! Glad you will read the O or C story tonight. I will also try to re-read it or partly tonight. You will see the connection to "Sons and Lovers" right away. I have some biographical background on the story concerning Lawrence's mother and his grandmother. This should be of some interest. I will look that up, also. Thanks for your compliments on my introduction.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Wonderful, amalia! I think Manolia is becoming one quickly and Pensive as well and a few others. ....

Manolia and Amalia, I have now read about 15 pages of the beginning of "Sons and Lovers". I enjoyed every word last night. I am anxious to resume tonight and get to the part Manolia quoted about the flowers.

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I am becoming a fan of D H Lawrence :)
Go go Janine!! I have read the first three chapters (not much, work gets in the way lately).

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Originally Posted by Janine

What strikes me in these first pages is the way in which Lawrence presents his characters - the characters of the mother and the father and their relationship. If you notice the first few years seeme to be happy years for both of them and then crept in the discontent and the problems - financial seemed to be the first and then the issue of Mr. Morel's drinking problem. From the beginning Lawrence shows us that the two married people are quite different in background, attitudes, refinement, and personality. .

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Yes they are pretty different the Morels. That differance is what attracted them to each other i think.
Mr Morel admired Mrs Morel because "she was very lady like" and he used to speak reverentially to her, using "thous and thines".
Mrs Morel was fascinated by his warmth and liveliness. She came form a puritan family, where men and especially her father (a short description is being given) are very restraint and silent.
Janine, i think their true happiness lasted only a few months.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

Lawrence also fills these beginning pages with the tone and atmosphere of the area where they live with a keen sense of things changing and more mines and collieries being established and encrouching on the land and the beauty of nature. Already we can feel the ugliness of industrialisation and the mining community, that later occuppied much of Lawrence's themes in his writing. .

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That's exactly what caught my interest. What i loved in "Women in love" was the dreary and bleak setting, which depicts Lawrence opinion concerning indusrialisation. Same setting here too.

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

What have always troubled me-from the first time I read the book until now that I'm re-reading- is the relationship of Paul's parents. I dare to say that there is a certain aura of passion between them. As you said, Janine, there are two people that couldn't be more different. Perhaps, it is the passion of the "opposite". Is there love?

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Hmmmm..good question.
I believe that whatever love there is, it is very superficial.
The two people got together because they were merely atracted by certain things in each other's personality (see above what i wrote to Janine). There wasn't any long lasting acquaintance between them, they kinda rushed in a thoughtless marriage.
Nevertheless, it seems that a kind of love has existed and it is apparent by Mrs Morel thoughts. In certain parts, especially when Mr Morel is ill, we can see Mrs Morel talking to herself and saying that "she didn't want him dead. She still wants him for herself (putting aside the fact that he is the breadwinner)". The same when Mr Morel decides to leave her and she evntually realises that he was just hiding in the back of the house.
But the most important part is when she stops caring about his actions (that's where her love stops) and then turns to her sons.
As for Mr Morel we get hints of his love in many places. First we learn that he is jealous of his first born child. Then we see that even when he is angry with her and they fight he has great pungs of guilt (although he never admits it).

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Originally Posted by Alexei

, between the Morels is different, Mrs. Morel is more like disappointed and hurt, she doesn't actually try to fight back. That makes me think that she actually loves him at least at the beginning of the book (there is a certain point in the novel when the author said that she just start to reconcile because she doesn't love him anymore), because she is a strong person and otherwise she would have tried to do something to fight back, as it was in the case Gerald/Gudrun.
.

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Great observations Alexei.
There is a certain point where Mrs Morel stops critisising her husband about his drunkeness, because she just doesn't care anymore. This is the point, chronologically, where we can safely say that her love is dead.
Also, to comment on your first point, Mrs Morel is more like disappointed and hurt, she doesn't actually try to fight back. YEs, that seems to be true. The answer can be found again in her upbringing. Mrs Morel comes from a puritan family. She is a devout christian and she has learned to restrain her feelings.Quite the opposite from Gudrun from "Women in love" who was a tigress ;)

Here's an interesting thing to ponder while you read this. Sons and Lovers is a bildungsroman of the development of Paul Morel. Isn't it interesting that so much of the early part of the novel takes place before Paul is even born? For instance, the novel that this is often compared to is James Joyce's Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man, also a bildunsroman and published almost at the same time. There the the novel starts with the central character's (Stephan Daedalas) first moments of consciousness as a baby. But here we go almost a third into the novel before Lawrence even begins to concentrate on Paul. You may not begin to answer why Lawrence structures the book this way without having read the entire novel and really digested it, but something for you all to keep in mind.

From Merriam-Webster:

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bildungsroman
Main Entry: bil·dungs·ro·man
Pronunciation: 'bil-du[ng](k)s-rO-"män, -du[ng]z-
Function: noun
Etymology: German, from Bildung education + Roman novel
: a novel about the moral and psychological growth of the main character

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I am sorry, if I have spoiled the reading. I didn't thought about that when I write the post. I usually forget about this because I don't find a book less interesting if now the plot and etc., but I can't expect everybody to be like me I am really sorry :bawling: Next time I will be more careful.

Virgil, I have just seen your post and the question is really interesting. I haven't tried to compare the book with "Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man". I have to think about it :)

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Originally Posted by Alexei

I am sorry, if I have spoiled the reading. I didn't thought about that when I write the post. I usually forget about this because I don't find a book less interesting if now the plot and etc., but I can't expect everybody to be like me I am really sorry :bawling: Next time I will be more careful.

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Oh no need to apologize. It's nice to be surprised as a reader, but a good reader will want to know ahead of time so that he can evaluate asw he's reading. I probably spoil novels for many first time readers. :D Well, how can one make intelligent comments if he/she doesn't know the entire novel.

I agree with all the points of Janine, Manolia and Alexei, and was fascinated by the reference to Gudrun from "Women In Love". I 've always liked her more than Ursula due to her liberated nature, opposing pious and, perhaps "fake", characters.

What I am particularly interested to explore is how the mother really influenced Paul's relationships. But I have to read that first...

Impatient is my middle-name...