Sons and Lovers

[Virgil]

The book has some very interesting thoughts of Paul regarding this, but the trouble is they are very much contradictory. It's not easy to judge by them to which religion (or perhaps to none) he belonged.

I hope Virgil also gets time to give his thoughts about it, and we are not disturbing him.

Oh you're not disturbing me. I think the question was to Lawrence's religion. For sure Lawrence was unconventional in his religious beliefs. I don't think he ever was an atheist. I think his religiuos beliefs were very similar to most of the 19th century romantics in that they believe in a spirituality that encompassed the earth and life, but not so specific and particular as in the Bible. In this sense all religions are reflective in their own cultural perspective of this overarching religion of all humanity and nature. I am not as up on the nuiances of the young Lawrence (of around Sons and Lovers timeframe) so i can't help as much there. But as Lawrence grew older, he became more enamored with a sort of paganism. I think his reasoning evolved to where this spirituality that encompassed nature was partitioned into a diety of sorts for the natural elements. For instance he felt the sun was like a god or spirit that provided a positive life energy. How serious he was I don't know. He didn't pray to a god of the sun or something like that, but he did see spirituality in them. I hope that helps.

Great pictures Janine and thanks for the letter. Did you actually type that out or were you able to find it on the internent?

[Janine]

Oh you're not disturbing me. I think the question was to Lawrence's religion. For sure Lawrence was unconventional in his religious beliefs. I don't think he ever was an atheist. I think his religiuos beliefs were very similar to most of the 19th century romantics in that they believe in a spirituality that encompassed the earth and life, but not so specific and particular as in the Bible. In this sense all religions are reflective in their own cultural perspective of this overarching religion of all humanity and nature. I am not as up on the nuiances of the young Lawrence (of around Sons and Lovers timeframe) so i can't help as much there. But as Lawrence grew older, he became more enamored with a sort of paganism. I think his reasoning evolved to where this spirituality that encompassed nature was partitioned into a diety of sorts for the natural elements. For instance he felt the sun was like a god or spirit that provided a positive life energy. How serious he was I don't know. He didn't pray to a god of the sun or something like that, but he did see spirituality in them. I hope that helps.

Great pictures Janine and thanks for the letter. Did you actually type that out or were you able to find it on the internent?

Virgil, that is a great explanation to the religion question which is a really difficult question when it comes to Lawrence. I tried before to answer it, but I am sure my answer was only half-baked.
I am glad you found the photos and the letter interesting. I was able to scan both. I had to fix up the photos some in Adobe (I still have my old program but it works great); I scanned in the letter as a document straight to the file Microsoft Word, somehow it transports it there and then fixes as it processes it. I had to do a little revision in the transfer, like parts of words would drop out or punctuation. It was so much easier than typing. I am thrilled now I can do this. I have several things I wish to quote from both my library reference books and my Introduction from WIL. It takes a bit of time for scanning and fixing, but no where near as much as typing, which I hate - ugh!

Note: I just went into the post with the two women's photos and posted a link to Nottingham University online exhibit of Lawrence. I may have posted it before, but this takes you directly to the page. It is a great site to explore - wonderful photos, too.

[Virgil]

I scanned in the letter as a document straight to the file Microsoft Word, somehow it transports it there and then fixes as it processes it. I had to do a little revision in the transfer, like parts of words would drop out or punctuation. It was so much easier than typing. I am thrilled now I can do this.

I don't blame you for being thrilled. That is a great feature.

[farnoosh]

i am reading the book right now

[Janine]

I don't blame you for being thrilled. That is a great feature.

Yeah, and it is not even a really expensive scanner. It is a HP 3-in-one scanner, copier, printer - cost me about 50 dollars. It works great!
Virgil, I was doubly thrilled to find this and know you will appreciate it. I thought of you right away - 'pyschobable' and all! Now this I typed - was short and too much of a bother to scan:

Letter from Lawrence to Barbara Low, 11 September 1916

I hated the Pyschoanalysis [sic] Review of Sons and Lovers.* You know I think ‘complexes’ are vicious half-statements of the Freudians: sort of can’t see wood for trees. When you’ve said Mutter-complex, you’ve said nothing – no more than if you called hysteria a nervous disease. Hysteria isn’t nerves, a complex is not simply a sex relation: far from it. – My poor book: it was as art, a fairly complete truth: so they carve a half lie out of it, and say ‘Voila.’ Swine!...

* This may refer to A,B. Kuttner’s critical article

This is a real gem! I thought of using it for a signature.
This should answer Pensive's ideas on Freud and Lawrence, or at least how he felt about him in 1916. Gee, I remember the 'Mutter-complex' from my college days.

i am reading the book right now

Hi farnoosh and welcome to this site. Great - glad you are reading the book; hope you enjoy it. Post any time or get back to us with comments when you are done. Meanwhile, you may want to read the commentary already posted. I am sure you will find it all quite interesting and it will be very helpful. Hope to see you on here again real soon.

[Virgil]

Quote:
Letter from Lawrence to Barbara Low, 11 September 1916

I hated the Pyschoanalysis [sic] Review of Sons and Lovers.* You know I think ‘complexes’ are vicious half-statements of the Freudians: sort of can’t see wood for trees. When you’ve said Mutter-complex, you’ve said nothing – no more than if you called hysteria a nervous disease. Hysteria isn’t nerves, a complex is not simply a sex relation: far from it. – My poor book: it was as art, a fairly complete truth: so they carve a half lie out of it, and say ‘Voila.’ Swine!...

This is a real gem! I thought of using it for a signature.
This should answer Pensive's ideas on Freud and Lawrence, or at least how he felt about him in 1916. Gee, I remember the 'Mutter-complex' from my college days.

Fabulous.

[Janine]

Manny, yes, what a find!

By the way, my new WIL book has a fairly good chronology in the beginning of it's pages. Now I won't have to ask you all the time when things were written. It pretty much lays it all out. I think the short stories are included but it might not break down every story and pinpoint it's exact date. I will still need you for that one.

[Pensive]

Pensive, You know, it is characteristic that Lawrence's characters sometimes are quite contradictory. I just found something in my commentary book on that point, more in relation to WIL book. Lawrence, himself in real life could be contradictory at times. Well, all I can say is that many people in can be condradictory and also unsure of their religious beliefs or if they even have any. I don't think in this novel L's religious beliefs have been fully explored. He is merely beginning to reject the old, conventional ways of thought. Later on, in his more advanced novels and writings, he truly does want a new order to life and forms his own ideas and thoughts about religion. Even into the last part of his life, he began to think differently about death and the hereafter. It was always a 'progression' and 'transformation' for Lawrence throughout his life. This is not easily explained without going into many aspects of his philosophy. In "Sons and Lovers", L is reflecting only the beginnings of this progression.

Oh you're not disturbing me. I think the question was to Lawrence's religion. For sure Lawrence was unconventional in his religious beliefs. I don't think he ever was an atheist. I think his religiuos beliefs were very similar to most of the 19th century romantics in that they believe in a spirituality that encompassed the earth and life, but not so specific and particular as in the Bible. In this sense all religions are reflective in their own cultural perspective of this overarching religion of all humanity and nature. I am not as up on the nuiances of the young Lawrence (of around Sons and Lovers timeframe) so i can't help as much there. But as Lawrence grew older, he became more enamored with a sort of paganism. I think his reasoning evolved to where this spirituality that encompassed nature was partitioned into a diety of sorts for the natural elements. For instance he felt the sun was like a god or spirit that provided a positive life energy. How serious he was I don't know. He didn't pray to a god of the sun or something like that, but he did see spirituality in them. I hope that helps.

Thanks a lot, Virgil and Janine. This helps in understanding about his religious beliefs, yes.

I fully understand. Actually my printer is fast - I bought a nice 3 in one type last year. It scans, copies and prints in full color. Still to print out the book does take much ink. I printed out one of the L short stories and then found I had it in a book. What a waste of ink, right?

You don't know sometimes how good it can do you! There was this course book I had about a year ago. And I lost it. Brought another one, felt a bit bad, but after sometime I found the same old book. But then again before one day of my exams, I lost one of those books. I had much to study that night for exams. And the shop was not near. If you lose one book (though I hope it never happens), you would still be having it. Or you can gift it to a friend as well!

Well, I would hold off to not spoil the book. You could refer back to the discussion later - these threads seem to stay on forever, don't they? Or copy all out and put in a program on your computer. That way you can read it as you go from chapter to chapter. True that sometimes it is fun to be an observer on here - I have done that and learned much. I feel like a spy - it is rather fun!

Good! Hope you come to any of the future L discussions.

Yeah, me too!

No need to blush. No ones thoughts are ever ordinary. It must have been important.

But sometimes the thoughts can be really silly! But yes, no denying, even the silliest thoughts can prove to be important...

Never, not at all - I graduated art college with a BFA in illustration. Actually, illustration does relate somewhat to literature, doen't it? In grade school I had problems with reading. I never could read aloud in the class, even in high school. I had a mortal fear of it and could never pronounce words correctly. I still struggle with that part of literature but I am improving since I joined Lit Net. I think more than likely I had a reading learning disability. Now I read slow but fine. Also in grade school they discovered I needed glasses - that is why I fell behind not being able to read the blackboard.

That's really good you are improving now! You know sometimes I think it would have been much better if I were a slow reader. I don't consider myself a very fast reader, but sometimes I read a book containing about three hundred pages in a day (but that depends on the book as well). On the other hand, there is this chance of missing things, or forgetting what you have read. When one reads a bit fast, he doesn't always get time to grasp everything.

I have read a lot of books on Lawrence, all independently. It is just something I love. If I love something enough I pursue it avidly. I am pretty much obsessed with this study by now. A few years back, I was obsessed with Thomas Hardy; had to read all his books. I read some brief biographies, but not a full one, not yet...someday maybe. For now, I am back to Lawrence. With the added convenience of finding more information and books on Amazon I have bought some lately such as 'Complete Collected Poems', 'Selected Letters of L', two new biographies, and various other things.

Hehe, you a real Lawrence-fan then! By the way, I have read The Mayor of Casterbridge of Hardly as well, and liked it very much. It was sentimental, especially the Henchard's will in the end brought tears in my eyes. I have tried to read Return of the Native but couldn't get into it. I might try it again in these holidays though.

So your vacation had begun then? Some are later. How long does it last? Enjoy while you can! Good time to read it when leisurely on vacation. I hate reading Lawrence work fast - one needs time to full absorb it.

Yes, there is quite a time left. More than a month.

Oh that makes more sense then. Maybe his words were not so true to what he really felt. It sounds like an upsetting scene and he was not too sure on his part, just saying those things like a man might say...you know....men, right - half the time they don't really know exactly what they want....hahahehehe!

Men might say the same thing about women!

Perhaps he did generalize them somewhat. Lawrence felt his books were 'art' above all else. I think, too he wrote about women of his day; and remember this book was early in the 20th century and women did not have the freedoms or free attitudes woman have today. I felt I could relate to some of the aspects and characteristics of the women in S&L. I have been hurt in love affairs before, so I felt an affinity to Miriam, at times.
In some ways Paul's images are tainted with his attitudes towards woman. Pschology plays a big role in this, in that Lawrence felt he was in fear of women. He felt that a woman could destroy a man. We just disgussed this in the other thread. Virgil very outspokenly pointed out the psychological reasoning behind this idea. I will try to see what page it is on and you can go in and read it. It will give you some insight on L's views of women.
In many ways L is definitely a 'paradox' when it comes to women. He had tons of women friends, even feminists, and he seemed to be able to see right to the soul of a woman in describing her, yet he had this deep-seeded fear of woman, yet he wanted one woman and married and stayed faithful. Later his theories on life and marriage in a new light are born from some of this fear. Most likely his mother's influence had a lot to do with this. I found this in one of the letters: "It has been rather terrible and made me, in some respects, abnornal." Those are L's exact words, regarding his close relationship to his mother.

Reading about D.H. Lawrence (from both his perspective and Paul's), I have got the feeling I didn't like him very much. We all have weaknesses, but some have more control over them than others which is also a reason why we like some and don't like the others. If it were not for the fact Lawrence had written a really good book like Sons and Lovers, I would not have liked him at all. At many places, Paul seems like a person thinkin very highly of himself. And so does Lawrence (even more), by what you have told me, and by what I have read about him.

Pensive, here's the photos I promised. I am working on the letter - the first one that Lawrence wrote about his relationship to his mother. You will find it very interesting. I was able to scan the letters directly into my Microsoft Word documents and they corrected the scan automatically. Now I have to piece together the documents and will post it tomorrow.

Miriam


Louie Burrows



Pensive, you can find much more information and photos on this great site:

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/onli...hl/index.phtml

If you go to 'Portal' also on the left, last listed, it takes you to another site that is good and has more great photos. Enjoy!

I really thank you, Janine, for posting the pictures. Interesting pictures! Even Miriam seems to be smiling. The image I get of Miriam is a girl who is usually very grave, but here she is different from the image I had of her in my mind!

DHL to To Rachel Annand Taylor, 3 December 1910

I have been at home now ten days. My mother is very near the end.: Today I have been to Leicester. I did not get home till half past nine. Then I ran upstairs. Oh she was very bad. The pains had been again.
'Oh my dear' I said, 'is it the pains?'
'Not pain now - Oh the weariness' she moaned, so that I could hardly hear her. I wish she could die tonight.
My sister and I do all the nursing. My sister is only 22. I sit upstairs hours and hours till I wonder if ever it were true that I was at London. I seem to have died since, and that is an old life, dreamy.
I will tell you. My mother was a clever, ironical delicately moulded woman of good, old burgher descent. She married below her. My father was dark, ruddy, with a fine laugh. He is a

* Referring to The Trespasser?
t Referring to The White Peacock?
~ Lawrence's mother died on 9 December 191O~

coal miner. He was one of the sanguine temperament, warm and hearty, but unstable: he lacked principle, as my mother would have said. He deceived her and lied to her. She despised him - he drank.
Their marriage life has been one carnal, bloody fight. I was born hating my father: as early as ever I can remember, I shivered with horror when he touched me. He was very- bad before I was born.
This has been a kind of bond between me and my mother. We have loved each other, almost with a husband and wife love, as well as filial and maternal. We know each other by instinct. She said to my aunt - about me: 'But it has been different with him. He has seemed to be part of me.' - And that is the real case. We have been like one, so sensitive to each other that we never needed words. It has been rather terrible and has made me, in some respects, abnormal.
I think this peculiar fusion of soul (don't think me highfalutin) never comes twice in a life-time - it doesn't seem natural. When it comes it seems to distribute one's consciousness far abroad from oneself, and one understands! I think no one has got 'Understanding' except through love. Now my mother is nearly dead, and I don't quite know how I am.
I have been to Leicester today, I have met a girl* who has always been warm for me - iike a sunny happy day - and I've gone and asked her to marry me: in the train, quite unpremeditated, between Rothley and Quorn - she lives at Quorn. When I think of her I feel happy with a sort of warm radiation - she is big and dark and handsome. There were five other people in the carriage. Then when I think of my mother: - if you've ever put your hand round the bowl of a champagne glass and squeezed it and wondered how near it is to crushing-in and the wine all going through your fingers - that's how my heart feels - like the champagne glass. There is no hostility between the warm happiness and the crush of misery: but one is concentrated in my, chest, and one is diffuse - a suffusion, vague.

* Louie Burrows, according to Jessie Chambers, one of-the models for Clara Dawes.

Muriel [Jessie Chambers] is the girl I have broken with. She loves me to madness, and demands the soul of me. I have been cruel to her, and wronged her, but I did not know.
Nobody can have the soul of me. My mother has had it, and nobody can have it again. Nobody can come into my very self again, and breathe me like an atmosphere. Don't say I am hasty this time - I know. Louie - whom I wish I could marry the day after the funeral - she would never demand to drink me up and have me. She loves me - but it is a fine, warm, healthy, natural love - not like Jane Eyre, who is Muriel, but like - say Rhoda Fleming or a commoner Anna Karenina. She will never plunge her hands through my blood and feel for my soul, and make me set my teeth and shiver and fight away. Ugh - I have done well - and cruelly - tonight.
I look at my father - he is like, a cinder. It is very terrible, mis-marriage.

Now, Janine, these two letters are extremely interesting. Okay, when I try to relate Freud's theory with this, it still doesn't make any sense. You see - Lawrence calls his father 'very bad' even before marriage. Having a father you dislike is not I think very easy to cope with. And I don't see why couldn't the boy be closer to his mother - the mother who loved him - was good to him rather than being bad. You see he said himself he didn't like being touched by his father. So his relationship, about which he mentions, 'almost-husband and wife like" (there is an almost) seems understandable to me.

As for the second letter, I think it makes even more clear why broke off with Miriam. She wanted his soul. And he had already been very much attached to his mother, and sometimes he regretted it. He had not wanted to be the same with Miriam simply because he didn't like being that. He had wanted to have a part of his soul away from anybody, his mother, his sister, whomever.

Thanks again!

[Janine]

Pensive, excellent post! I will get back to you soon. I expended all my energy in WIL, posting just now. I had to think real hard to try to convey things I have been reading, additional to the novel, in my commentary books. I want to scan some of the "Sons and Lovers" to convey to you, as well, what I have read and studied. I am tired today and I have to go eat my dinner, but hope to post something later in response to your great post. See you then....

[Janine]

Thanks a lot, Virgil and Janine. This helps in understanding about his religious beliefs, yes.

Hi Pensive, I am finally back, but of course, real-life is still calling to me. I just ran out to do some errands; in-between doing laundry. But I have time to post you a reply. I am so glad our posts have helped you with your religious belief questions. It is, as I said, a very hard thing to answer decisively or finally. Virgil knows more of the theology than I do. I plan on reading L's very last posthumeously published novel "Apocalypse" sometime - maybe in the summer. I took it out of the library to look over and Virgil said he wrote that about his religious ideas, which were rather strange, during the last years of his life. But I have a curiosity to read it. I found it in the theology section of my library.

You don't know sometimes how good it can do you! There was this course book I had about a year ago. And I lost it. Brought another one, felt a bit bad, but after sometime I found the same old book. But then again before one day of my exams, I lost one of those books. I had much to study that night for exams. And the shop was not near. If you lose one book (though I hope it never happens), you would still be having it. Or you can gift it to a friend as well!

Yes, the story may be helpful printed out after all. I could use that one to mark certain passages - right? I won't lose my Lawrence books; I guard them with my life!
Figures you found the book after you bought it. That usually happens to me with drugstore items and incidentals. I can't find them for the life of me, I buy a new one, then very mysteriously the old one appears. My friend said that if you are hunting an item go look in the first place you searched; amazingly this usually works. You can easily overlook something. You are so funny, finding the book and then losing one again. That is really a good story! I can give the short story to someone also, who needs a copy. Maybe someone on here who needs it - mail it to them.

Yeah, me too!

So glad you agree and definitely, we need you in other discussions. You are such a intuitive and intelligent discusser , and you are so nice, too. The short story thread it a good one to start with and also L's poetry is quite nice and very interesting. Right now ktd222 and I are discussing "Baby Tortoise" in our 'Tortoise poems' thread. There are 4 Lawrence threads active right now. Fine with me, since I love the author's work. "Tortoise" discussions are going slowly, but quite well. Virgil also stops in with comments. Anybody is welcome, of course, especially you....hint hint....

But sometimes the thoughts can be really silly! But yes, no denying, even the silliest thoughts can prove to be important...

Absolutely true! Many times there emerges a real gem amongst the silly thoughts in life and in posts.

That's really good you are improving now! You know sometimes I think it would have been much better if I were a slow reader. I don't consider myself a very fast reader, but sometimes I read a book containing about three hundred pages in a day (but that depends on the book as well). On the other hand, there is this chance of missing things, or forgetting what you have read. When one reads a bit fast, he doesn't always get time to grasp everything.

Thanks, yes, I think I have improved, but mostly in recognising certain words and finally being able to pronounce them correctly. I think I had a problem with that and oft times just skipped over a word I did not know. Now I do try to sound out the word different ways and I look things up often. I have always hated doing that, but I make myself now. I want to understand the texts better. Well, you seem to read much faster than I do. I can't read that much in a day - 300 pages - wow. But you are right I think us slow readers do absorb more by being slow and careful. I never skim a book or skip parts. I am rather a purest that way. I would feel I was missing something. I am very intense and concentrated when I read, so maybe being so slow is not that bad, afterall. I very much enjoy reading when I have the time. Someone once told me there are two kinds of readers - ones that read each and every word (that is me) and others read phrases, but not the words 'aloud' in ones mind (as I do). It only proves we all have our own styles of reading and that is how it should be. Teachers try to fit everyone into a mold and some rebell. I think I did. The mold was not right for me, I am sure of it.

Hehe, you a real Lawrence-fan then! By the way, I have read The Mayor of Casterbridge of Hardly as well, and liked it very much. It was sentimental, especially the Henchard's will in the end brought tears in my eyes. I have tried to read Return of the Native but couldn't get into it. I might try it again in these holidays though.

Oh yes, to the first statement. But to the second about Hardy; I am also a big fan of his writing. I have read nearly everything he wrote. I do this; I discover a writer and then try to read most of his work, if I really like him. What is not to like about Hardy? The man was brilliant! I had first joined a literature group online - The Thomas Hardy Association - but it was not a forum, rather a literature list and eveyday one would receive tons of emails for everyone on the list. It was interesting, at first and I learned much, but it got really tiresome after a while. However, I made one very good friend on there and he has filled me in on all of Hardy's background and basis for his books. He lived with his wife in Costa Rica, but now resides back in his native land, Japan. He always says "Return of the Native" is like his story. He is very nice and respectful and came to visit me last spring and to meet my family. Next time he plans on bringing Yoko, his wife. That will be such a treat. So, see how fate can work. Isn't it a wonderful story?
I also love "Mayor of Casterbridge". I own the BBC miniseries and saw it when I was midway through the book. I have to say they did a fine job on the film. I cry real tears everytime I get to that ending, too. I can hardly take it. It is a fine book, indeed. I love Hardy's plots and plot twists. Of course, "Tess" is great. Have you read "Tess of the D'Urbervilles" yet? I have the film of that one, too, by Roman Polanski - wonderful! I also have the film of "Return of the Native" and "The Woodlanders". I set out to get any Hardy adaptation I could a few years ago. Oh, if manolia were only reading this now she would die laughing. She and I joke all the time about films. I particually liked "The Woodlanders" for some reason. I cry in that one, too. Quess I have a weakness for the sentimental.
I have known other people who said they had a difficult time getting into the reading of "Return of the Native" and also of "Jude the Obscure". Both novels are a little more psyhological and involved, if you know what I mean. Maybe that is the reason. Someday maybe you will read them and I don't think you will regret it.

Yes, there is quite a time left. More than a month.

Glad you have a whole month left for vacation. I suppose you plan a lot of reading, but go enjoy the outdoors and real life, too. Is it warm there where you live?

Men might say the same thing about women!

So true - it all depends on ones vantage point.

Reading about D.H. Lawrence (from both his perspective and Paul's), I have got the feeling I didn't like him very much. We all have weaknesses, but some have more control over them than others which is also a reason why we like some and don't like the others. If it were not for the fact Lawrence had written a really good book like Sons and Lovers, I would not have liked him at all. At many places, Paul seems like a person thinkin very highly of himself. And so does Lawrence (even more), by what you have told me, and by what I have read about him.

Well, he certainly knew he had talent and greatness, but I don't think Lawrence is someone you could call conceited, not at all. He lived a very simple life actually, never owned much or any property (ranch in New Mexico was kept in his wife's name - he refused to own property), and most people who meet him took to him right away and liked him emensely. He had a great many friends during his lifetime. He had a good sense of humor according to his friends and a very friendly way. From all my reading I get quite another view of the man. He was not a saint; that is for certain and he had his faults and his characteristic ways and attitudes/quirps, but one has to understand all the obstacles the man was up against. The press and the critics crucified him/his novels. Then by marrying an already married and divorced woman, Lawrence again was crucified. Then on top of that, she was German and that was just prior to WWI, so they was even suspect of being spies, which was totally ludicrious. Then his passport was confiscated and they could not leave England when they wished to. He was hassled in the draft and the army recruiting office, when he was certainly chronically ill with undiagnosed TB. He fought illness of the lungs all his life. He had a great zest for living, but his days were numbered and he probably knew it underneath his great fortitude and his denial. After I realised all the emense obstacles of his life, I better understood him and had the greater respect for the man.
So, by our earlier writings, I don't want to give you the wrong impression of the actual man, Lawrence. Paul may come off as a character who is conceited and proud, but I think the real Lawrence was..... "just a man, take him for all his faults". Hamlet. I have read some of the letters he wrote and I feel like those are a small true window into the real man's soul. I really liked what I read, so far. The early letters are rather endearing and intimate and in these Lawrence seems humble and very respectful of those he is writing to. He seems to be a nice man, very sensitive and intuitive. He seems to be struggling along like any fine young author would. And most importantly he seems to love life. He never once felt sorry for himself and he wrote a wonderful poem to this effect - one of his poems about animals. It mimics his own situation in life. I think the "Baby Tortoise" poem is very suggestive of the weight that Lawrence had to carry in his struggle against the world.

I really thank you, Janine, for posting the pictures. Interesting pictures! Even Miriam seems to be smiling. The image I get of Miriam is a girl who is usually very grave, but here she is different from the image I had of her in my mind!

I knew you would like the photos. They say "a picture says a thousand words". Think that is how the saying goes. It is so true. I feel I could have known these people when I see their photos. They become so human to me. I meant to write Jesse for Miriam over her picture. I am sure you realised that.

Now, Janine, these two letters are extremely interesting. Okay, when I try to relate Freud's theory with this, it still doesn't make any sense. You see - Lawrence calls his father 'very bad' even before marriage. Having a father you dislike is not I think very easy to cope with. And I don't see why couldn't the boy be closer to his mother - the mother who loved him - was good to him rather than being bad. You see he said himself he didn't like being touched by his father. So his relationship, about which he mentions, 'almost-husband and wife like" (there is an almost) seems understandable to me.

Yes, I found these letters to be real gems; so revealing and 'telling', aren't they? They do explain so much about his attitudes towards his parents. I very much agree with you, that naturally he would be closer to his mother because of his situation and their strange marriage. I think he was probably even more precious to his mother, who lost his older brother to death; also playing into this is the fact that L was sickly as a baby; he almost died at birth, in fact, and needed greater care/mothering as a child; there were times his life hung by a thread, due to his weak lungs. Surely, all this would make a mother more protective and the two grow closer together in their relationship.

As for the second letter, I think it makes even more clear why broke off with Miriam. She wanted his soul. And he had already been very much attached to his mother, and sometimes he regretted it. He had not wanted to be the same with Miriam simply because he didn't like being that. He had wanted to have a part of his soul away from anybody, his mother, his sister, whomever.

Thanks again!

Yes, that letter makes it much clearer to me, as well. The 'soul possessiveness' issue arises in his novel "Women in Love". It is quite prominent and plays into the main theme of the book. I like the way you described and explained that aspect of why he did not want it to happen again with Miriam - the possessing of his soul. That is quite intuitive and well put. I think you are absolutely right on this point. This actually can help us understand WIL better and why he feels marriage should be not a merging of two souls but a separateness that is orbiting in perfect harmony. Interesting how this notion relates directly to that idea. I understand it even better now.

Pensive, you are quite welcome and thank you for your great post and all the good ideas here - not silly one bit......

[protagonist]

thanks for yuou explanations I am reading the book now and the writings here make me understand clearly.

[Janine]

thanks for yuou explanations I am reading the book now and the writings here make me understand clearly.

Hi protagonist, and welcome to this site! Glad the information helped you to understand the book more clearly. A few of us have been discussing and planning to read "Sons and Lovers" sometime in the fall months. Hope you can join in to our discussions then. Enjoy your reading!

[Janine]

Hello Everyone!
I am revitalizing this thread - "Sons and Lovers" (reading for October 07) and hope to have a really great discussion on the book. So, currently please begin reading it; if you don't own a copy, I believe it is here on this site online, at least to get you started.

I read the book last year for the first time - yes, hard to believe for those who know how enthused I am all the time about Lawrence's work, but it seemed when I tried to read it years ago, I had some problems getting started - for one thing the dialect language of the father really seemed difficult for me to comprehend. So if you run into the same problem, you might want to re-read those passages and eventually they will become clear to you and you will get the flow of how he speaks. By the time I did finally read this fine book, I had found out it was basically autobiographical or as they say in the movies, 'based on a true story'. I don't know about anyone else, but I am always more fascinated know a story, film or novel is based on truth. Therefore, this fact made me want to read the book even more, since I had read several biographies about the author, all very interesting.

"Sons and Lovers" is a fine book and the novel that gave Lawrence his fame and established him initially as an important author. It is not his first published book. His first published book was "The White Peacock" and next "The Trespasser". "Sons and Lovers" followed and received critical acclaim, launching Lawrence as a prominent author.

Lawrence was quoted as saying something like, he would never write another novel quite like this one. He knew the novels to follow would be different, even at that early juncture in his life. He knew the book was very personal and contained his adolescence and his early life story and conflicts.
I think you will enjoy the book very much. For me it will be a repeat reading which I am looking forward to very much. Even Lawrence felt that books should be read twice, at the least. One does always see and observe so much more in a second reading. I know some of you have already read this book recently, so that a reviewing of the book is all you will probably need. We don't need to discuss at a fast pace and there is no pressure to end the discussions, so take your time and let us hopefully explore many aspects of this fine book and DHL.

Enjoy your reading!

[Virgil]

Enjoy everyone. It is a great novel. I'll pop in and out, based on what i remember, but unfortunately my schedule doesn't allow for another novel at this point.

[amalia1985]

I am half-way through it, waiting for the discussion to begin,see you!