Why I believe in God?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YesNo

The problem is I accept the various forms of out-of-body experiences as evidence.

That means any scientific theory or religious viewpoint that doesn't, or tries to trivialize it, is living in fantasy land.

That's my perspective. I am postmodern enough to allow you to have your own perspective.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freudian monkey

So this leads us to the conclusion that we cannot have a reasonable debate about this matter. This is precisely what I wrote in my first post to this topic: there is no way to have a reasonable debate if the opposing sides cannot reach any kind of agreement on even the most basic principles of the debate.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YesNo

What for some people is a "reasonable debate" is for others a power play.

I want to avoid the power play approach up-front. The dismissal of out-of-body experiences by assigning them a pseudo-scientific label is a power play. I am responding to it by saying up-front that I don't accept such explanations, that is, I will respond to a power play with an outright dismissal. Out-of-body experiences remain as evidence.

Why is consciousness important to discuss?

During the second half of the last century, physicists validated two fundamental religious views of the universe that would have seemed absurd from a scientific perspective 100 years ago. (1) They said that space-time had a beginning. (2) They said it came from nothing. All that is left is to determine how this could have happened. Did space-time (as well as matter and energy) pop out of nothing by chance or were there choices involved.

If you claim it was done by chance, you must assume that there are countably infinite alternate space-time universes since chance would have to operate randomly over its domain of possibilities. For this theoretic approach to work, consciousness must be down-played as an insignificant accident.

If you claim it was done by a single or multiple acts of choice, you introduce dimensions of consciousness outside of space-time where those choices were made. For this theoretical approach, our own consciousness becomes a valuable source of information. If this approach wins out, the religious views that we were "made in the image of God" or that we have a "God within" become validated.

Personally, I'm on the choice side.

---

I think it is a very good reply.

I once stood on the side of "If you leave the genesis of our universe in the hands of chance, there must invariably be an infinite number of universes due to the nature of that chance" philosophy, and yet I found myself looking in the face of a similar problem when I brought the supernatural into the equation. It is hard to narrow down the amount of supernaturality that is allowed in the equation. When you start discussing limits, you are undeniably discussing theology.

With that said, I am not forsaking my fragile belief in supernatural occurences, but I cannot use that belief as a means of reasoning. As Wilde's Lord Henry might have said, leave theology to those who need it. And theology is always where I end up when discussing this matter.

I believe it was Freudian Monkey who stated that a theist and an atheist cannot have a reasonable debate. I must agree with this statement. The debate ends as soon as it begins, with the introductory statement of, "What I believe is..." It turns into a game of "change the other person's mind", rather than "demonstrate why the other person is wrong." Changing someone's mind isn't empirically valuable. I'm not sure if empirical value is the goal of this thread; it may just be a "quality of life" debate (which is almost always just as fun), but I think I remember someone challenging a non-believer to "give sound reasoning" for their disbelief, and that sounds awfully empirical.

I may be completely off the mark from the discussion at hand, but in reality, I am simply trying to raise my post count. :brow:

I agree with the stalemate statement. It will never truly be solved or answer, and it upsets me when people take these stubborn positions and entrench themselves in simplistic "right or wrong," and "black and white" opinions.

All the evidence lines up with an atheist, his or her Being, falsehoods line the pockets of the faithful like cheap coin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sethyirak_7

I may be completely off the mark from the discussion at hand, but in reality, I am simply trying to raise my post count. :brow:

---

:) That's as good a reason as any to post something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YesNo

:) That's as good a reason as any to post something.

---

It is no reason at all, however it is funny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blazeofglory

A spiritual experience is something misconstrued. Spirituality is the only thing that gives a meaning to our meaninglessness in a world that is so void and empty and so creepy. I do not know, in fact no body knows whether or not God exists but I see great amounts of placating stuffs in spirituality and that is why I hanker after it.

---

I would rather accept the meaningless, void, empty, creepy world for what it is rather than try and deny it with notions of the supernatural. Why should we desire to see the world through placated eyes. Our anger is allayed but still present. I would rather be present with it because suspending my own presence to avoid something too painfully present is only self-detrimental; the world still remains as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lieasleep

I would rather accept the meaningless, void, empty, creepy world for what it is rather than try and deny it with notions of the supernatural. Why should we desire to see the world through placated eyes. Our anger is allayed but still present. I would rather be present with it because suspending my own presence to avoid something too painfully present is only self-detrimental; the world still remains as it is.

---

Is not nihilism a persona too, lieasleep? Is not authenticity for when you are dead? What is reality, and what is truth? Is not beauty truth, and ugliness true too? Are we not alienate from the world, and in our loneliness seek comfort? Is not the light blinding as the darkness is cool? Is not black a shade of white? Am I not asking a lot of questions? Is it not all illusion? How does one become certain? Where are we, and what are we here for? Can you not answer my questions?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by G L Wilson

Is not nihilism a persona too, lieasleep? Is not authenticity for when you are dead? What is reality, and what is truth? Is not beauty truth, and ugliness true too? Are we not alienate from the world, and in our loneliness seek comfort? Is not the light blinding as the darkness is cool? Is not black a shade of white? Am I not asking a lot of questions? Is it not all illusion? How does one become certain? Where are we, and what are we here for? Can you not answer my questions?

---

Haha I can try to answer a few. Please accept some suspended humility. I only attempt answering some of this because it is fun. Disregard the answers themselves completely.

It is a persona that is attempting to not be a persona; although it is not whether or not it is a persona, it is.

No, Hamlet, authenticity too is a self-qualified, relative non-existent and, when related back to to nihilism and persona, actually destroys any idea of existent value in culture, tradition, and/ or authenticity beyond our actions which reflect our own reflections.

No truth in relativity beyond a self-qualified one, even a self-qualified one hidden behind a highly affected self-qualification. We only make choices based on experience and desire but being informed by experience leads to affect. I am extremely affected but I am still making the choice to be affected. I am still taking the action of effect.

We are not alienate from the world because we are a part of it. We are arrangement of atoms, very physical existent atoms that are constantly entering and becoming a part of us (in the corporeal sense) and then again, in this same sense, moving out of us; what you consider the world, the physical universe, may very well be a part of you soon and may very well have been you; you once considered the dust on your floor you.

I don't really feel like answering anymore. Real fun trying to answer though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lieasleep

Haha I can try to answer a few. Please accept some suspended humility. I only attempt answering some of this because it is fun. Disregard the answers themselves completely.

It is a persona that is attempting to not be a persona; although it is not whether or not it is a persona, it is.

No, Hamlet, authenticity too is a self-qualified, relative non-existent and, when related back to to nihilism and persona, actually destroys any idea of existent value in culture, tradition, and/ or authenticity beyond our actions which reflect our own reflections.

No truth in relativity beyond a self-qualified one, even a self-qualified one hidden behind a highly affected self-qualification. We only make choices based on experience and desire but being informed by experience leads to affect. I am extremely affected but I am still making the choice to be affected. I am still taking the action of effect.

We are not alienate from the world because we are a part of it. We are arrangement of atoms, very physical existent atoms that are constantly entering and becoming a part of us (in the corporeal sense) and then again, in this same sense, moving out of us; what you consider the world, the physical universe, may very well be a part of you soon and may very well have been you; you once considered the dust on your floor you.

I don't really feel like answering anymore. Real fun trying to answer though.

---

"Man simply is." Sartre

Is he nothing else? Am I not my brother's keeper?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by G L Wilson

"Man simply is." Sartre

Is he nothing else? Am I not my brother's keeper?

---

Nope. Responsibility is is another one of those self-qualified relative blah blah blahs. Choke by Pahalniuk is all about that, despite my hating that book, it made some good points.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lieasleep

Nope. Responsibility is is another one of those self-qualified relative blah blah blahs. Choke by Pahalniuk is all about that, despite my hating that book, it made some good points.

---

Since you seem to think all is relative, why don't you try suicide and see if there is any certainty in that?

The nihilist thinks that nothing's more important than any other. Kurt Vonnegut is an example. (I knew that there was something which annoyed me about that guy.)

I believe in God because He's the only one who never failed me.
I believe in God because when I need Him,I find Him next to me.
I believe in God because when I knock on his door , He always opens his door to me.
I believe in God because when I call Him , He always answers back and listens to me.
I believe in God because I'm so mean to Him , but still He is so kind to me!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

I believe in God because He's the only one who never failed me.
I believe in God because when I need Him,I find Him next to me.
I believe in God because when I knock on his door , He always opens his door to me.
I believe in God because when I call Him , He always answers back and listens to me.
I believe in God because I'm so mean to Him , but still He is so kind to me!

---

"The Lord is a man of war." Exodus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

I believe in God because He's the only one who never failed me.
I believe in God because when I need Him,I find Him next to me.
I believe in God because when I knock on his door , He always opens his door to me.
I believe in God because when I call Him , He always answers back and listens to me.
I believe in God because I'm so mean to Him , but still He is so kind to me!

---

Well said...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

I believe in God because He's the only one who never failed me.
I believe in God because when I need Him,I find Him next to me.
I believe in God because when I knock on his door , He always opens his door to me.
I believe in God because when I call Him , He always answers back and listens to me.
I believe in God because I'm so mean to Him , but still He is so kind to me!

---

How can God fail you, caddy_caddy, when he doesn't exist?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by G L Wilson

Since you seem to think all is relative, why don't you try suicide and see if there is any certainty in that?

The nihilist thinks that nothing's more important than any other. Kurt Vonnegut is an example. (I knew that there was something which annoyed me about that guy.)

---

I like living. One day it will be over. Why now? Not everything is relative, a bunch of things that don't actually exist are relative. "Isn't existence relative?" No. Not a huge fan of solipsism.

And Vonnegut is a self-described humanist. Can someone be a humanist and a nihilist at the same time? Seems like humanism still takes a certain amount of faith that is really contradictory to nihilism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lieasleep

I like living. One day it will be over. Why now? Not everything is relative, a bunch of things that don't actually exist are relative. "Isn't existence relative?" No. Not a huge fan of solipsism.

And Vonnegut is a self-described humanist. Can someone be a humanist and a nihilist at the same time? Seems like humanism still takes a certain amount of faith that is really contradictory to nihilism.

---

I am that I am, and who is to dispute me?

I cannot be God, for I exist because a baby has smiled at me. Proof of existence is in laughter. The Sufis say that the world began with a smile, why should I not die laughing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by G L Wilson

How can God fail you, caddy_caddy, when he doesn't exist?

---

He exists within me.
You know, outside my house there is a lot of trees full of birds; they keep singing but for years I've never noticed their existence; I've never remember that I heard them once; it's only when I began to love the birds' songs that they exist to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

He exists within me.
You know, outside my house there is a lot of trees full of birds; they keep singing but for years I've never noticed their existence; I've never remember that I heard them once; it's only when I began to love the birds' songs that they exist to me.

---

So marvelously written. All we see is the reflection of what we have inside and our strong faith enables us to see the beauty of everything.

You are right Caddy in saying you can see the awe-inspiring beauty of nature since there is beauty inside you since you feel the message of the creator of the universe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

I believe in God because He's the only one who never failed me.
I believe in God because when I need Him,I find Him next to me.
I believe in God because when I knock on his door , He always opens his door to me.
I believe in God because when I call Him , He always answers back and listens to me.
I believe in God because I'm so mean to Him , but still He is so kind to me!

---

If those are reasons to believe in God, you can hardly be surprised when those of us who haven't had those experiences don't. In fact, I'd be interested to know whether you believed in God before you had those experiences, or whether you had them and then came to believe in God.

I know it's highly subjective Haribol , not the objective reality most of us are looking for ; but why don't we look within not without?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkBastable

If those are reasons to believe in God, you can hardly be surprised when those of us who haven't had those experiences don't. In fact, I'd be interested to know whether you believed in God before you had those experiences, or whether you had them and then came to believe in God.

---

Before that I'm taught that there is God but only through my own experiences that I "believed" in God.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

Before that I'm taught that there is God but only through my own experiences that I "believed" in God.

---

Two different uses of 'believe' here.

a) I believe in an afterlife. (I consider such a thing exists)

b) I believe in my wife. (I consider that I can depend on her.)


So, did you believe in God in sense (a) before you had those experiences?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

He exists within me.
You know, outside my house there is a lot of trees full of birds; they keep singing but for years I've never noticed their existence; I've never remember that I heard them once; it's only when I began to love the birds' songs that they exist to me.

---

That's a very nice way of describing love as being necessary before something can really exist for someone. I hadn't thought of it like that before.

Most of the time we are unaware, except vaguely, of what is around us. Only when we are patient enough to pay attention do we really start seeing. And that patience is a kind of love if I am following what you are saying.

I also agree with your first sentence.

You cannot depend on something that doesn't exist Mark. It's both meaning .

Quote:

---

That's a very nice way of describing love as being necessary before something can really exist for someone. I hadn't thought of it like that before.

Most of the time we are unaware, except vaguely, of what is around us. Only when we are patient enough to pay attention do we really start seeing. And that patience is a kind of love if I am following what you are saying.

I also agree with your first sentence.

---

What does matter if something exists or not if it has no value to me? To me it makes no difference.
Shall I consider those whom I love and are out of the reach of my senses a non-existent beings and those who are around me but don't have any value to me existent beings? Why is it so?

Sometimes I hear people speak of a loving god
Sometime I hear people say they have the fear of god within them
I have to ask myself - Why would anyone have fear of a loving god ?

We should fear the most those whom we love the most; That's because we are defenseless face of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

We should fear the most those whom we love the most; That's because we are defenseless face of them.

---

Seems like an unnecessary, uneasy, steepsided path.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

You cannot depend on something that doesn't exist Mark.

---

I'm not asking a question about belief. I'm asking a question about the sequence of events.

Did you believe God existed before you had the experiences you described in your list?

I answered you in the previous post but u didn't notice it.
At first it was not a belief in God , no . I can't call it a belief. It was an idea of a God, that there is a God but later on I believed in Him.

Are u satisfied?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atehequa

Seems like an unnecessary, uneasy, steepsided path.

---

There is an Arabic verse that says : Who fears to climb the high mountains , spends all his life among holes.
__________________

I'm not looking for satisfaction. I'm hoping to understand.

So - you didn't believe in God when you first had these experiences of him. It was the build-up of these experiences that caused you to believe in him.

The first time though, when you didn't entirely believe he existed, and one of those things you listed took place, what happened?

The first time though, when you didn't entirely believe he existed, what happened?

I was lost and feel that I'm so lonely and weak.When I believed in Him and that he really exists ,when I feel lonely and very weak , there is avoice within me that tells me ,you are not alone there is God ,and if you are weak and lost God could support you .

Fair enough. He's never done that to me. When he does, I'll give it some thought.

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
then allow me to ask u , it's my turn now ; is it because he didn't do such a thing to u that you don't love him ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
then allow me to ask u , it's my turn now ; is it because he didn't do such a thing to u that you don't love him ?

---

No - he might do something like that and I might still not love him. But I might at least believe in him. As it is, I have no experience of him so there's nothing to think about, any more than I think about, for instance, cold fire or time travel.

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so whatever he does you won't love him , ok . But tell me if a female tells you I love you Mark , how could you prove that she really loves you and to believe her and /in her if you refuse to have any experience with her? Isn't experience the essential form of any knowledge?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so whatever he does you won't love him , ok . But tell me if a female tells you I love you Mark , how could you prove that she really loves you and to believe her and /in her if you refuse to have any experience with her? Isn't experience the essential form of any knowledge?

---

The question is not whether I love him, but whether I believe he exists. When he does something for me as personal as what he's done for you, then I'll think about how I feel about him.

So yeah - I agree with you that experience is important. When God and I share one, I guess we'll start paying attention to each other.

I swear I'm really depressed these days but u made me laugh from the bottom of my heart . Thx Mark.

And why u won't him to do sth for you if you don't love Him . don't believe in him , and don't trust Him?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

And why u won't him to do sth for you if you don't love Him . don't believe in him , and don't trust Him?

---

For a start, it's not the case that I don't love him or do love him or do trust him or don't trust him. As I don't believe he exists, none of those things are possible.


But more importantly, I don't want him to "do something" for me. All I'm saying is that apparently he's done something for you, and if he did that for me, I'd have to revise my beliefs. If, on the other hand, he doesn't want to - that's okay. I'm fine and he's fine and I'm sure he'll get on fine without me.

Why are u interested in my experience then ?