Atheists....

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Originally Posted by Bandiceet

"Scientists have proof with out certainty, while Christians have certainty with out proof" - For the life of me I can not remember who said that, but it sums alot up quite neatly.

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Indeed it does.

This has been a very worthwhile topic and the ensuing discussion says a lot about the quality members that we have here at the forum. While I don't post much, I do enjoy reading the thoughts of others.

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Now what exactly does an atheist believe?? What is the definition you would give to describe an atheist?

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Richard Dawkins has stated that atheists are like cats, they are finnicky and don't like to follow orders, which is why they aren't as *organized* in the way that a lot of groups are. While there are atheist/humanist groups out there, their numbers are paltry compared to the actual number of atheists/humanists that are out there. They follow their own will and chafe at being subservient to others, or whatever form of anti-hierarchy thinking they have. In other words, they are a rather contrarian lot. I can only speak in regards to my own experience and I'll say this-to me, an atheist *believes* in rationalism, that is, approaching every situation in life with considerable thought and serious attention. This does not mean that an atheist is perfect. This carries a big responsibility as I've changed more than a few beliefs(political and otherwise) as I've examined things I didn't want to admit, but had to after considerable deliberation. An atheist is rational and always willing to examine the evidence. They know that living by a set of ethical principles is the right thing to do and that the greatest measure of one's life, is to dedicate one's life to something beyond the self. I will live forever through my children, through my life's work in the public sector, as well as through my desire to make this life around me better through civic participation.

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Originally Posted by SFG75

they are finnicky and don't like to follow orders... They follow their own will and chafe at being subservient to others, or whatever form of anti-hierarchy thinking they have. In other words, they are a rather contrarian lot...rational and always willing to examine the evidence. They know that living by a set of ethical principles is the right thing to do and that the greatest measure of one's life, is to dedicate one's life to something beyond the self.

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Well stated. I'm curious: do you think this list of qualities is unique to atheists only, or can Christians claim the same qualities? I ask this because many atheists seem to be under the (mistaken) impression that Christians are not critical thinkers, that we "blindly" follow "what we've been taught" and that we need to "think for ourselves." Frankly, I think that's tired, stereotyping of Christians; it's almost as if many atheists want to brand rejection of established institutions, or "nonconformity" or whatever as their badge - but can't Christians claim the same qualites in different ways?

There are many Christian intellectuals and thinkers like you zeppelin, but many are "Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow" -Tool (opiate)

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

There are many Christian intellectuals and thinkers like you zeppelin, but many are "Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow" -Tool (opiate)

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OK - I won't deny that: there are plenty of ignorant Christians out there, and I have annoyed a few of them myself.

(Thank you for the compliment - I'll take it as such even if it wasn't meant that way :) )

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

I find it interesting, a little sad, and in some instances scary. But not funny.

The folks that are slamming creationists can not really come up with an alternate theory of what started it all.

And the science bashers have almost certainly never had the opportunity to investigate what science really is all about. My sister is a professor of neurobiology and I take great offence at the notion that she is somehow a liberal na'er-do-well who's primary goal is to debunk someone's religion. She goes into the lab before dawn, and usually doesn't return home until after 9pm. She works very hard to understand the human brain an how in functions in order to better our lot--for very little monetary compensation. You folks that summarily dismiss scientists as mean-spirited, close minded, ignorant, whatevers...need to examine a mirror. No scientist that I know of has ever claimed to know with certainty what is going on in the universe. They theorize, examine, then re-theorize.

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well, the same could be said of the relgion bashers...they've never checked it out... some of us are scientists, some of us believe that an open mind is best. I don't have all of the answers, neither do you, I'm just saying, keep an open mind.

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

well, the same could be said of the relgion bashers...they've never checked it out... some of us are scientists, some of us believe that an open mind is best. I don't have all of the answers, neither do you, I'm just saying, keep an open mind.

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well, to quote some random black guy, true dat. lol anway To restate the gist of what Redzepplin has been saying, whether you like it or not, there are many Christians who know why they believe what they do and can easily defend it. To say that scientists have proof without certainty and Christians without proof shows that whomever quoted that phrase has never studied Christianity outside of TBN. In order to have a rational discussion we must all be on the same page, scientists that know about Christianity, and CHristians that know about science. I think this thread would be infinitly more interesting if we could do that...

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Originally Posted by Bookworm4Him

But when people make it their god, and try to prove that life came from atoms that were never there, that wammed into each other, and made a perfect world full of monkeys that over a gagillion of years turned into people...maybe some are a little close-minded.

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So, you are saying that science should just throw up their hands and stop trying to understand what is going on in the universe? Just accept without question that one partiuclar religion is right?? I'm sorry, but to me that is the definition of closed minded.

Note: I have presented this question before in several posts and it seems to be unanswerable, but what the heck, perhaps somone has a theory?

What was god doing before it created the universe 14 billion years ago? What was it doing for infinity (much more than a 'gagillion') years? I mean many of you seem to find is so impossible for humans to have evolved from other primates. But the notion that some supreme being has just been existing for infinity and suddenly decided to create a universe a little while ago to be a perfectly rational idea!

Again, what do you think God was doing for eternity before it (he) decided to create the universe?

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

So, you are saying that science should just throw up their hands and stop trying to understand what is going on in the universe? Just accept without question that one partiuclar religion is right?? I'm sorry, but to me that is the definition of closed minded.

Note: I have presented this question before in several posts and it seems to be unanswerable, but what the heck, perhaps somone has a theory?

What was god doing before it created the universe 14 billion years ago? What was it doing for infinity (much more than a 'gagillion') years? I mean many of you seem to find is so impossible for humans to have evolved from other primates. But the notion that some supreme being has just been existing for infinity and suddenly decided to create a universe a little while ago to be a perfectly rational idea!

Again, what do you think God was doing for eternity before it (he) decided to create the universe?

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I don't think thats what he was saying, I can't be certain though, I think generally, openmindedness on both sides should occur, both groups should acknowledge that the other side may have a point...innoccent untill guilty...

as for the question:

philisophically speeking, god is theoretically beyond our understanding, and thus perchance may not need to do anything in the snense of doing as we understand it. (thats platonic). or... we are not able to understand, based on our comprehensive limitations. (that is more rousseu , I murdered the spelling I know)

bookworm obviously doesnt know anything about physics.

When I was in High School I had a teacher who was quite a devout Christian. He actually taught Physics.

He openly admitted that he had seen enough scientific proof that there was a big bang. (though mind you, I don't what he thought about evolution). He had seen the proof, beleived it, though he did beleive it was god that made it go "bang" in the first place.

After reading some of these posts, I have seen SOME people have the general opinion that they are right because they see everyone else as being wrong. (Please note that the operative word in that sentence is SOME not ALL)

Do not forget, Ladies and Gents, the question that started this thread is:
"Do you consider yourself an atheist?" People have answered this with comments to quanitify and explain their answers.
It is not "Do you think that people are wrong for their beleif?"

but thats implied...
if you consider yourself an atheist, you think that the religious people are wrong and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

. . .I think generally, openmindedness on both sides should occur, both groups should acknowledge that the other side may have a point...innoccent untill guilty...

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Agreed :)

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

as for the question:

philisophically speeking, god is theoretically beyond our understanding, and thus perchance may not need to do anything in the snense of doing as we understand it. (thats platonic). or... we are not able to understand, based on our comprehensive limitations. (that is more rousseu , I murdered the spelling I know)

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I was really wondering what YOU (anyone here) thought he/she/it was doing for infinity, not what philosophers of the past have concluded. Take a walk on the wild side--speculate. If you're so inclined. It seems like kind of convenient to answer a question with, "well, we're too dumb to understand God." We certainly understand some things, no--do unto others for example.

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Originally Posted by Bandiceet

Do not forget, Ladies and Gents, the question that started this thread is:
"Do you consider yourself an atheist?" People have answered this with comments to quanitify and explain their answers.
It is not "Do you think that people are wrong for their beleif?"

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Oh yeah that thing :) I am not an atheist because being an atheist requires too much faith for me :)

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Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon

but thats implied...
if you consider yourself an atheist, you think that the religious people are wrong and vice versa.

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Well, essentially, yes. :D

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Agreed :)



I was really wondering what YOU (anyone here) thought he/she/it was doing for infinity, not what philosophers of the past have concluded. Take a walk on the wild side--speculate. If you're so inclined. It seems like kind of convenient to answer a question with, "well, we're too dumb to understand God." We certainly understand some things, no--do unto others for example.

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Well, it does seem convineient, but consider children, they do not comprehend why there are laws/rules (eventually they do, as they grow) nor do they comprehend their birth or many things for that matter...maybe its a form of existance beyond our understanding...it seems like a convieniat answer...because it is, but at the same time, it does make sense logically.

but If I were to take a guess within human parameters...I really have no idea, maybe fishing...that's what I would do.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

So, you are saying that science should just throw up their hands and stop trying to understand what is going on in the universe? Just accept without question that one partiuclar religion is right?? I'm sorry, but to me that is the definition of closed minded.

Note: I have presented this question before in several posts and it seems to be unanswerable, but what the heck, perhaps somone has a theory?

What was god doing before it created the universe 14 billion years ago? What was it doing for infinity (much more than a 'gagillion') years? I mean many of you seem to find is so impossible for humans to have evolved from other primates. But the notion that some supreme being has just been existing for infinity and suddenly decided to create a universe a little while ago to be a perfectly rational idea!

Again, what do you think God was doing for eternity before it (he) decided to create the universe?

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No one knows what God was doing, but at least it is supposed to be a mysterious, unexplainable, and metaphysical, whereas the purely scientific big-bang theory believes everything has an order, yet still doesn't try to explain the pre-bang time period.
Of course a practicer of a religion is going to think that that religion is right while others are wrong. Who would follow a faith that they didn't regard as superior?

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do you think this list of qualities is unique to atheists only, or can Christians claim the same qualities? I ask this because many atheists seem to be under the (mistaken) impression that Christians are not critical thinkers, that we "blindly" follow "what we've been taught" and that we need to "think for ourselves."

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Just so there is no misinterpreation, the context of my statement wasn't that religious people lack critical thinking skills, quite the contrary. Religious people are civically involved and that's a noble thing. To get to the heart of the matter, atheists don't organize themselves as well as religious people do. The American Humanist Association is a very small group compared to the relatively large number of atheists and humanists who would join. I don't believe that athiests feel compelled to join groups like that as many view it is a personal prerogative and are somewhat dismissive of those wh would "lead" the group. This is somewhat ironic to me as I know more than a few atheists who are very active in the ACLU or democratic politics. You would think they would be inclined to ban together to fight for the separation of church adn state more, but alas, that just isn't a big thing for some reason. I'm at a loss as to why that is thecase quite frankly. Christians in America have groups such as the Christian Coalition and Focus on the Family. They are well-financed and have a ton of members. At the same time, not every Christian is a member of either group, so yes, critical thinking is still around for Christians, as well as for every group out there.

On top of that, theree is a wide gap of opinion. Do I believe that a Unitarian is less of a critical thinker simply as a Christian? I do not. I know of many Methodists and Lutherans that I respect who are very profound and erudite intellectually.

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Frankly, I think that's tired, stereotyping of Christians; it's almost as if many atheists want to brand rejection of established institutions, or "nonconformity" or whatever as their badge - but can't Christians claim the same qualites in different ways?

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The sheer number of Christian sects bears that out. I would imagine that ministers/priests are also beside themselves at times with church members who clash with them over doctrinal matters. Stereotyping isn't right and yes, some atheists are "angry atheists" who only seek to trigger bad blood between people. I don't believe any group owes a monpoloy on that "bad" side of human behavior however.

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Originally Posted by Dante Wodehouse

No one knows what God was doing, but at least it is supposed to be a mysterious, unexplainable, and metaphysical, whereas the purely scientific big-bang theory believes everything has an order, yet still doesn't try to explain the pre-bang time period.
Of course a practicer of a religion is going to think that that religion is right while others are wrong. Who would follow a faith that they didn't regard as superior?

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So, you don't want to speculate what it was doing for infinity. Fair enough, I understand you dilemma--kind of a sticky-wicket.

I'm not certain I understand what you mean by "the purely scientific big-bang theory believes everything has an order". By 'having an order' what do you mean exactly and specifically?

"Of course a practicer of a religion is going to think that that religion is right while others are wrong."

And this is not closed-minded?

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Originally Posted by Wandering_Child

I was simply browsing and a specific post caught my eye.



If you really mean that seriously I...I am at a loss for words.

This is why some people are atheists. They question their beliefs for a while and extremists end up shoving the Bible down their throats and telling them that they will go to Hell if they do not believe in God.

Now, I'm not an atheist. I am a practicing LDS member, but I do have respect enough for those who believe differently. It doesn't mean that Christians, Muslims, or whatever you are should shun them simply because they don't believe in a higher being. God told us to love everyone. And it should end right there.

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you are an athiest, so you don't belive in God, yet you claim that we should love each other because God commands it. Isn't that a little contradictory? I mean, I don't totally believe that quote either. Some people do do that, but you can't catagorize all atheists that way, just as you cant catagorize all Christians as "extremist who shove the Bible down their throats" But you can't claim something that was given by something that you don't believe exists. :thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by SFG75

An atheist is rational and always willing to examine the evidence. They know that living by a set of ethical principles is the right thing to do and that the greatest measure of one's life, is to dedicate one's life to something beyond the self.

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Well stated. Red already talked about this, but I will add my two cents. Red asked if it is possible that Christians are like this too. I am more than willing to examine the evidence. I was raised Christian, but you come to a time where people begin to tell you that Christianity isn't true, and I have examined it myself, and come to the conclusion that it the only logical option. When you accept that there is a God, but are questioning Jesus, a wonderful book to read is The Case For Christ. It is about a journalist that set out to prove Jesus, and the Bible, a fraud. I highly recommend all you atheists to try to pull apart his arguements, and let me know your results.
I realize that you only mean that quote for certain of the sect, and I will not catagorize all atheists by the multitude of bad ones, but I ask that you do not catagorize all the Christians by the majority of those who call themselves Christians.
"They try to dedicate their life to something beyond the self." Isn't that our whole purpose? To try to reach out and y'all the truth before you die and go to hell? gtg

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Originally Posted by Bookworm4Him

you are an athiest, so you don't belive in God, yet you claim that we should love each other because God commands it. Isn't that a little contradictory? I mean, I don't totally believe that quote either. Some people do do that, but you can't catagorize all atheists that way, just as you cant catagorize all Christians as "extremist who shove the Bible down their throats" But you can't claim something that was given by something that you don't believe exists. :thumbs_up

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he said he wasnt an atheist.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

So, you don't want to speculate what it was doing for infinity. Fair enough, I understand you dilemma--kind of a sticky-wicket.

I'm not certain I understand what you mean by "the purely scientific big-bang theory believes everything has an order". By 'having an order' what do you mean exactly and specifically?

"Of course a practicer of a religion is going to think that that religion is right while others are wrong."

And this is not closed-minded?

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I do speculate, but I cannot be sure. Having an order means that it should be explainable, but infinity is not explainable, not by science. It is closed minded, but why would you entrust your immortal soul to a cause that you didn't consider correct.

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Originally Posted by Wandering_Child

If you really mean that seriously I...I am at a loss for words.

This is why some people are atheists. They question their beliefs for a while and extremists end up shoving the Bible down their throats and telling them that they will go to Hell if they do not believe in God.

Now, I'm not an atheist. I am a practicing LDS member, but I do have respect enough for those who believe differently. It doesn't mean that Christians, Muslims, or whatever you are should shun them simply because they don't believe in a higher being. God told us to love everyone. And it should end right there.

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You don't seem to be at a loss for words.
There are extremists out there, but there are also people who love (and this may not be such a crazy idea) by trying to save other people. Many times people who are just trying to make an atheist see the light are docketed as intolerant radicals. Respect is good, but to love you should have an interest (not neccessarily a pushy one) in helping their immortal soul. In my not-quite so humble opinion, trying to get a fellow human in to heaven demonstrates more love than playing 18 holes of golf with them every other Sunday.

well, you nubs can go love someone else then :)

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Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon

he said he wasnt an atheist.

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sorry old chap. I was quickly skimming thru. I'm not quite sure what an LDS thingy is.

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Originally Posted by Bookworm4Him

I'm not quite sure what an LDS thingy is.

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Latter Day Saints are people, not 'thingys' :)

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Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon

well, you nubs can go love someone else then :)

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True love is helping your "enemies" (i don't consider you my "enemy" as much as just not agreeing) as well as your friend. Anyone, including barbarians in who-knows-where, will help their friends; only those who really care will help those they don't know. If y'all have relatives, esp. close family, who are Christians, do you think that they will stop loving you if you don't convert? Not on your life! You don't have to agree to love. :thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by Logos

Latter Day Saints are people, not 'thingys' :)

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sorry!

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

"Of course a practicer of a religion is going to think that that religion is right while others are wrong."

And this is not closed-minded?

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No, it's not closed-minded to be sure about something. I believe there is a God. I, therefore, believe that people who don't believe there is a God are wrong. I do however recognize that there are logical arguments for atheism. They just aren't as convincing to me as the ones for theism.

Pluralism in today's society is so illogical....You can not have everyone be right and no one wrong.....i agree Weisninheimer

Yo! Yo! Yo! Homies!!! What's up? Word!

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Originally Posted by Weisinheimer

No, it's not closed-minded to be sure about something. I believe there is a God. I, therefore, believe that people who don't believe there is a God are wrong. I do however recognize that there are logical arguments for atheism. They just aren't as convincing to me as the ones for theism.

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In what way?

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Red asked if it is possible that Christians are like this too.

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They are like that to a degree. There are those who do acknowledge evolution and who wouldn't believe that we should take the Old Testament too literally, as stoning children and reverting back to a primtive, barbarian Taliban-esque society is untenable. There are those who are in denial. I coun't those who believe the earth is only 14,000 years old or who fail to believe that there are new species that emerge, which ultimately, validates evolution. I know more of more than a few Ph.D. holders who sudenly develop amnesia, or at least, stay away from the biology department.:lol: The least critical thinking are those who are like Fred Phelps. People who take selected portions of the Old Testament, only to ignore the more absurd parts of it; people who equate a free-thinking deist Jefferson as a litaerlist; people like Jerry Falwell and Oral Roberts, who talk about morality, but who ignore social justice and the economy to the detriment of working people. These are the folks who exhibit the least amount of critical thinking in my honest, biased, flawed opinion.:yawnb:

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I realize that you only mean that quote for certain of the sect, and I will not catagorize all atheists by the multitude of bad ones, but I ask that you do not catagorize all the Christians by the majority of those who call themselves Christians.

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Oh I more than agree. Martin Heidegger was a known Nazi sympathizer. How someone with his background could have fallen under the sway of national-socialism merely accounts ofr the fact that humans...are well....human.

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"They try to dedicate their life to something beyond the self." Isn't that our whole purpose? To try to reach out and y'all the truth before you die and go to hell?

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LOL-I have investigated the claims of Christianity, and I have found them to be false. For one, Christianity is terribly unoriginal. Large parts of Christianity are products of Pagan stories of the past. From a "flesh and blood savior" to the resurrection, though they called him Osiris-Dionysus. On top of that, every major Christian holiday has a pagan predecessor. Second, Christianity claims nothing that makes it more discernablly correct than any other system of belief. Testimony?, absolutely worthless as there are plenty of Hindus, Buddhists, and Hindus who can tell you that their convictions are of equal value. The holy scriptures? The process of what is added or subtracted was nothing more than political scheming and the stories written were by the victorious tribes. Ethnic cleansing and all sorts of backwards behavior such as stoning children, clearly show this pattern IMHO. Look at our own politicas, for years, the "curse of Ham" theory was used to justify slavery and segregation. How laughable is it that a man seeing his drunken father is cursed, but the daughters who get their father drunk and sleep with him isn't?:lol: Now you could argue that those instances are different, however, that would be to admit the *relative* nature of things, and we now how *relativism* is the boogie-man for every known(or pretended) problem that there is. Third, the religion that one takes up is mostly predicated upon geography. If you grow up in Thailand, you will probably be a Buddhist. If you grew up in India, perhaps a Hindu or a Sikh. If you are an American, well, your sect depends upon your own family background. Yes, I suppose one could look at the "evidence" and dismiss other religions or sects, but that can be a rather creative task in reasoning as well.

No, atheists aren't perfect and they(I) are more than flawed. I hold on to some ntoions myself related to politics and philosophy that I know perhaps aren't exactly so "true." However, I acknowledge that(or seek to) and in doing so, hope to continue learning what I can. I can't say the same goes for a theistic person. Contrary evidence can be rationalized away or simply ignored.

Sorry the rant/rambling. I should have less coffee.

I hope I did not offend with my post, it wasn't my intention. This is a fine board and I'm very impressed with the content posted thus far by everyone.:thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by RobinHood3000

In what way?

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I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, Robin. some clarification, please.

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Originally Posted by Dante Wodehouse

I do speculate, but I cannot be sure. Having an order means that it should be explainable, but infinity is not explainable, not by science. It is closed minded, but why would you entrust your immortal soul to a cause that you didn't consider correct.

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Ok, let's do away with infinity. Lets pose the question as:

What do you think God was doing 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000 years ago?

I think we all agree that this is only a drop in the bucket compared to infinity.

And as for an 'immortal soul', I'm far from convinced that such a thing even exists, let alone what I would trust it to if it did.

Got to go with you here. I still havn't ruled out reincarnation and karma as distinct methods or resources. The deity concept has basic conundrums built in. Can the rules of physics be applied to spiritual things. Rhetorical question maybe. Oh well, back to unreality. RJS

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

Got to go with you here. I still havn't ruled out reincarnation and karma as distinct methods or resources. The deity concept has basic conundrums built in. Can the rules of physics be applied to spiritual things. Rhetorical question maybe. Oh well, back to unreality. RJS

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Hi Quasi,

Yeah, I'm with you, I can't really rule anything out. I sometimes think the native americans may have been onto something with their animal spirit guides, dreams, natural signs, etc. I could swear I've noticed unusual animal behaviour preceeding certain major events in my life--perhaps its just an over-active imagination though.

If spiritual = paranormal, then no, the laws of physics do not apply, imo. By definiton paranormal consistis of events beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation (1).

(1)
paranormal. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved March 19, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paranormal

Can you guess which way I voted?

the one who suffere from materialism ...
and look for the reality of this life in wrong way
he sufferes from inside because he don't understand the actual realationship between his mind and his heart ..
everything in his life must be material even the love 2 be real ..




in my opinion , if he or they don't believe that there is god "ALLAH" for this life ...
why ?
most of them live in confusing life ...

O sancta simplicitas!