Atheists....

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Originally Posted by manolia

When someone posts an opinion and you intend to comment on it please read it carefully and do not extract the meaning you like out of it.
The point i wanted to make was in the last few lines and it is to that effect:

If people on earth have education and do not live miserably as they do in certain parts of the earth, if countries stop invading other countries and stop meddling in their internal affairs, then religions won't be a weapon for leaders to use in order to achieve their goal. In fact i believe that there won't be any use of religions anymore. And even if there is (for many people have the need to believe in a benevolent force and can't simply cope with the idea that their pressence on earth is limited) we live in free countries so let them have it. I personally respect the choice of others to believe. And you know, it is nice since it seems that the act of believing gives strength to an individual.

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you know i wasnt responding to yuo right? with that comment?

Ok sorry then..it sounded like that

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

There is no solid basis for such a supposition. That is simply a tactic to smear Christianity in a way that is so blatantly unfair and unprovable as to be absurd in its very conception.

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Organized religion in general is the corruption of the world. happy now?

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Organized religion in general is the corruption of the world. happy now?

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I will be once you provide some basis for this claim. Otherwise, it is simply your opinion and carries as much weight as unsupported opinion does.

Wars that have been occurring since ancient times wouldn't be considered proof?

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Wars that have been occurring since ancient times wouldn't be considered proof?

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Please be as so kind to identify the particular wars and how Christianity played an instigating role is said conflicts. Otherwise I'm going to be tempted to say that your statement is little more than one of the over-used stereotypes launched at Christians. Remember: the Crusades have already been dealt with, so they are no longer a valid choice. Something post-Renaissance would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Please be as so kind to identify the particular wars and how Christianity played an instigating role is said conflicts. Otherwise I'm going to be tempted to say that your statement is little more than one of the over-used stereotypes launched at Christians. Remember: the Crusades have already been dealt with, so they are no longer a valid choice. Something post-Renaissance would be nice.

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lol I think what he is getting at Red, is that organized religion in general has contributed to wars in the past. This is true, but not a very valid point when considering how easy wars are started. Consider this:

The Football War in 1969 between Honduras and El Salvador was sparked by a World Cup soccer match between the two countries.

Does this mean that soccer is corrupt since it has started a war? In my honest opinion, no it doesn't. To say that something besides sinful pride is the reason for all wars, is not only ridiculous, but also very ignorant.

Howdy , now you're seeing my point--why would the creator of a world [universe] not just do it right in the first place? Go straight to the end game?

It knows what the final outcome of the universe will be, no? Who will make it to the show, and who won't, correct? So why not just make it so? Why make it so convoluted--"worship me and my glory for 75 years or so, then, if you accept that I sent my son to get nailed to a cross you'll live for infinity in some nebulous...something...If you don't, well, I'm gonna fry you for infinity. Oh, and by the way, for those 75 years...make sure you give 10% of everything you own to the church so they can enhance my glory even more."

Seems just a little contrived and convenient to me. But as always, I could be wrong

I prefer to take the C.S. Lewis (or perhaps I have just come up with this theory while reading the Screwtape Letters and therefore attribute it to him) philosophy, that is, that God was tired of creating things that in their fiber couldn't disobey him without knowingly ending up in Lucifer's new colony. He wanted something that chose his path as oppose to having no other paths to choose. I trust that he came up with the universe pattern that grants a majority of people heaven, but I can't really know. As regards tithing, that is just to keep the church running. Without it, new churches couldn't have been built, nor pastors given a livable salary. It has been overdone by the church, but it is necessary to keep things running.

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Originally Posted by watkinsguy

lol I think what he is getting at Red, is that organized religion in general has contributed to wars in the past.

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Agreed. But since the contention behind the "wars" argument is that Christianity has "corrupted" the world implies to me that Christianity has had a more than passing influence in the wars of this world. Highly debatable. Nice example you gave, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Dante Wodehouse

Howdy , now you're seeing my point--why would the creator of a world [universe] not just do it right in the first place? Go straight to the end game?

It knows what the final outcome of the universe will be, no? Who will make it to the show, and who won't, correct? So why not just make it so? Why make it so convoluted--"worship me and my glory for 75 years or so, then, if you accept that I sent my son to get nailed to a cross you'll live for infinity in some nebulous...something...If you don't, well, I'm gonna fry you for infinity. Oh, and by the way, for those 75 years...make sure you give 10% of everything you own to the church so they can enhance my glory even more."

Seems just a little contrived and convenient to me. But as always, I could be wrong

I prefer to take the C.S. Lewis (or perhaps I have just come up with this theory while reading the Screwtape Letters and therefore attribute it to him) philosophy, that is, that God was tired of creating things that in their fiber couldn't disobey him without knowingly ending up in Lucifer's new colony. He wanted something that chose his path as oppose to having no other paths to choose. I trust that he came up with the universe pattern that grants a majority of people heaven, but I can't really know. As regards tithing, that is just to keep the church running. Without it, new churches couldn't have been built, nor pastors given a livable salary. It has been overdone by the church, but it is necessary to keep things running.

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That is a very blunt perception of Christianity I will give you that :) To answer the statement of why doesn't he just fast forward to the end of time since He knows who is going to choose what and where they are going to go, I ask you this: where is the fun in that? lol but really, I do believe that God likes too see us glorifying Him, as we are sentinent human beings that are making CHOICES to do His will, not being forced to like angels. Wouldn't you love your spouse more if they CHOSE to obey you rather than be FORCED to? just a thought :)

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Originally Posted by Dante Wodehouse

Howdy , now you're seeing my point--why would the creator of a world [universe] not just do it right in the first place? Go straight to the end game?

It knows what the final outcome of the universe will be, no? Who will make it to the show, and who won't, correct? So why not just make it so? Why make it so convoluted--"worship me and my glory for 75 years or so, then, if you accept that I sent my son to get nailed to a cross you'll live for infinity in some nebulous...something...If you don't, well, I'm gonna fry you for infinity. Oh, and by the way, for those 75 years...make sure you give 10% of everything you own to the church so they can enhance my glory even more."

Seems just a little contrived and convenient to me. But as always, I could be wrong

I prefer to take the C.S. Lewis (or perhaps I have just come up with this theory while reading the Screwtape Letters and therefore attribute it to him) philosophy, that is, that God was tired of creating things that in their fiber couldn't disobey him without knowingly ending up in Lucifer's new colony. He wanted something that chose his path as oppose to having no other paths to choose. I trust that he came up with the universe pattern that grants a majority of people heaven, but I can't really know. As regards tithing, that is just to keep the church running. Without it, new churches couldn't have been built, nor pastors given a livable salary. It has been overdone by the church, but it is necessary to keep things running.

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Whoa - what's all this and where did it come from? Did you actually want a response to this post? I'm not even sure what it's trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Agreed. But since the contention behind the "wars" argument is that Christianity has "corrupted" the world implies to me that Christianity has had a more than passing influence in the wars of this world. Highly debatable. Nice example you gave, by the way.

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I can't respond to your post because then my post would be deleted (political influence would be the only way to analyze the situation). And by the way...a political debate against me is going to be much harder to win than a philosophical debate (this time it's not about opinion, but instead historical fact).

My argument would deal with Christianity and conservative politics in modern times. This would be your requested "modern example", and I shall hold me tongue (I already got demerits on this forum).

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Please be as so kind to identify the particular wars and how Christianity played an instigating role is said conflicts. Otherwise I'm going to be tempted to say that your statement is little more than one of the over-used stereotypes launched at Christians. Remember: the Crusades have already been dealt with, so they are no longer a valid choice. Something post-Renaissance would be nice.

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One thing people tend to either don't know or deliberatly forget, is that Adolf Hitler was quite a devout Christian. One of the many theories that abound about why he did what he did to the Jews is because of a mis-construed interpritation of the Christian bible. Taking this view, WW2 was as relgious as it was anything else. Is that post-Renaissance enough for you?

Now, this is my first post here on these boards, and this is the first thread I have read, and went out of my way to join up so I can comment on it. Mind you, I have not read every single 600 odd replies.

I am in the bundle of people are classified as athiest. I find that Athiest is a name used for these people because the names like "Christian" or "Hindu" Or "Jew" or what ever don't convieniantly fit. Alot of Athiests have Faith, it is that they do not have Religion.

Beleif and Faith are very powerful things. Since it is very rare for a person to follow more than one religion at a time, this can make an interesting condry. Relgion "A" beleive that followers of Religion "B" will go to hell for not following Relgion "A". The opposite is also can be said. Since followers of both religions truely beleive the others will go to hell, then everyone will, because of that beleif.

If you think that is a load of Rubbish, that logic more opr less follows all the arguements I have ever been given that God exists.

When your god starts hating the same people you do, you know your god is made up.

Welcome to the forums Bandiceet!

Thank you, Hyperborean.

I think using WW2 as a "religious war" is tenuous at best. Even if you do subscribe to the opinion that Hitler was christian (albeit misguided) it ignores the other major factors behind the war (desire to create German supremacy in europe, hatred for the effects/consequences of the Verseille treaty, feeling of betrayal by German leaders from previous years)

I think possibly the best example of a post rennaissance religiously inspired conflict would be the conquest of Britain/Ireland by William of Orange

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Originally Posted by Bandiceet

One thing people tend to either don't know or deliberatly forget, is that Adolf Hitler was quite a devout Christian. One of the many theories that abound about why he did what he did to the Jews is because of a mis-construed interpritation of the Christian bible. Taking this view, WW2 was as relgious as it was anything else. Is that post-Renaissance enough for you?

Now, this is my first post here on these boards, and this is the first thread I have read, and went out of my way to join up so I can comment on it. Mind you, I have not read every single 600 odd replies.

I am in the bundle of people are classified as athiest. I find that Athiest is a name used for these people because the names like "Christian" or "Hindu" Or "Jew" or what ever don't convieniantly fit. Alot of Athiests have Faith, it is that they do not have Religion.

Beleif and Faith are very powerful things. Since it is very rare for a person to follow more than one religion at a time, this can make an interesting condry. Relgion "A" beleive that followers of Religion "B" will go to hell for not following Relgion "A". The opposite is also can be said. Since followers of both religions truely beleive the others will go to hell, then everyone will, because of that beleif.

If you think that is a load of Rubbish, that logic more opr less follows all the arguements I have ever been given that God exists.

When your god starts hating the same people you do, you know your god is made up.

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Adolf was not a devout christian, and most of his antisemitism came from his childhood, rejection, and popular anti semetic feelings in europe at the time. WWII was not driven by relegion, it was a secular war around economics, and power.

Athiest is described as an individual who does not believe in a god or gods...not as a follower of non-mainstream religion. If you believe in an almighty being...higher than humans...you are not athiest.

As for going to hell...well, theres some faulty logic in there... just because it is stated doesn't make it true, ie I say the sky is pink, and those who say its blue are dumb...and you say the sky is blue and those who say it is pink are dumb...whos right...or are we both dumb?

well, God exists, as I have seen it to date.. he exists because it can't be proven he doesn't just as he doesn't because it can't be proven he does...
I guess you just have to have faith that he does or doesn't exist.

"When your god starts hating the same people you do, you know your god is made up"... well possibly, or that aspect is made up, if the debunking of God is because of a contradiction put forward by one guy...then, theres some issue in proofs there.

Now to clarify, I use the name God, as a describer for supreme deity, call it what you will...don't hate the player, hate the play.

no, more faith is required for religion. believing in nothing till it is proven to exist is the opposite of believing in everything till it is proven not to exist, not believing in one thing till its proven not to exist. there is only one science, there are thousands of religions. it is as likely that a higher being exists as it is that one doesnt. it as not as likely that a specific one exists.

WW2 was a religious war? Cmon, wars are about one thing and one thing only, and that is power. You honestly think Hitler did what he did to Jews because of his "Christian" beliefs? I think it is more along the lines of his failure earlier in life which he perceived to be caused by Jews. You should look Hitler up, that would give you a much better perception of Hitler, or read his book Mein Kampf

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Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon

no, more faith is required for religion. believing in nothing till it is proven to exist is the opposite of believing in everything till it is proven not to exist, not believing in one thing till its proven not to exist. there is only one science, there are thousands of religions. it is as likely that a higher being exists as it is that one doesnt. it as not as likely that a specific one exists.

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It seems to me a half empty half full argument, one side is pessimistic the other is optimistic. really, they require the same effort.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

I can't respond to your post because then my post would be deleted (political influence would be the only way to analyze the situation). And by the way...a political debate against me is going to be much harder to win than a philosophical debate (this time it's not about opinion, but instead historical fact).

My argument would deal with Christianity and conservative politics in modern times. This would be your requested "modern example", and I shall hold me tongue (I already got demerits on this forum).

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Sorry - I'm not buying it. Wars started by governments influenced by Christian principles (or simply Christian-dominant cultures) do not qualify in my book as "wars caused by Christianity." Politics mitigates this particular argument. I want wars specifically started and maintained (like the Crusades) based on religion - on who God is and what we're supposed to be doing as His servants. You will have - I believe - great difficulty in doing so.

"Win?" Was anybody winning our discussion? Here's an FYI: history is the record of what happened by other human beings - as such, it is prone to interpretation, distortion and a certain degree of subjectivity. Not all facts are irrefutably what you say they are; they may point in a number of directions at once. Maddening, this inability to nail reality down, huh?

just like the bible eh?

as like science?

lol this is funny to read

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Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon

just like the bible eh?

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Easily said; much more difficultly defended.

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Originally Posted by watkinsguy

lol this is funny to read

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I find it interesting, a little sad, and in some instances scary. But not funny.

The folks that are slamming creationists can not really come up with an alternate theory of what started it all.

And the science bashers have almost certainly never had the opportunity to investigate what science really is all about. My sister is a professor of neurobiology and I take great offence at the notion that she is somehow a liberal na'er-do-well who's primary goal is to debunk someone's religion. She goes into the lab before dawn, and usually doesn't return home until after 9pm. She works very hard to understand the human brain an how in functions in order to better our lot--for very little monetary compensation. You folks that summarily dismiss scientists as mean-spirited, close minded, ignorant, whatevers...need to examine a mirror. No scientist that I know of has ever claimed to know with certainty what is going on in the universe. They theorize, examine, then re-theorize.

But isnt that what life is all about? :)

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Sorry - I'm not buying it. Wars started by governments influenced by Christian principles (or simply Christian-dominant cultures) do not qualify in my book as "wars caused by Christianity." Politics mitigates this particular argument. I want wars specifically started and maintained (like the Crusades) based on religion - on who God is and what we're supposed to be doing as His servants. You will have - I believe - great difficulty in doing so.

"Win?" Was anybody winning our discussion? Here's an FYI: history is the record of what happened by other human beings - as such, it is prone to interpretation, distortion and a certain degree of subjectivity. Not all facts are irrefutably what you say they are; they may point in a number of directions at once. Maddening, this inability to nail reality down, huh?

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Government documents have perfect enough interpretation for me. My knowledge doesn't come from a propaganda filled history textbook. Let's just say I have family that have worked for the government and have seen things you couldn't possibly imagine.

Anyways, It's not Christianity that's the problem; it's using Christianity to control the populace. The Nazis wore both the cross and the swastika on their uniform.

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Originally Posted by watkinsguy

That is a very blunt perception of Christianity I will give you that :) To answer the statement of why doesn't he just fast forward to the end of time since He knows who is going to choose what and where they are going to go, I ask you this: where is the fun in that? lol but really, I do believe that God likes too see us glorifying Him, as we are sentinent human beings that are making CHOICES to do His will, not being forced to like angels. Wouldn't you love your spouse more if they CHOSE to obey you rather than be FORCED to? just a thought :)

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Thank you! lol How 'bout another example for our doubting companions here? ;) hmmm...!!!! I know! Everybody loves American Idol, right? If not that, then there must be some sort of show like that that you watch. So would the many viewers want to just skip right to the end and see the winner?
Ok, how 'bout the NCAA coming up? (For those of it that watch it) Now that they have arranged the brackets, let's just let the number one seeds battle it out. You know what, we all know that Florida will win, so let's just name them the champs and go about our normal buisness without having to listen to the news page constantly.
(Just one more example, I really can't help it.) How many of ya'll have children? Are they little, just a few years old? Ok, let's just grow them up here and now. Forget their first steps, their first days of school, their little field trips, first day of high school, first car, school prom, graduation, choosing colleges, getting married, their first kid, and the list goes on. Why not just rush thru time and see where the're going to be buried. Forget their life, or that they were even born. In fact, let's just kill them in the womb. they aren't really Alive, are they?!? Is that what you want? No need your little girl who, looking up at you thru her big blue eyes and putting her little hand in your palm, plant a kiss on your cheek and give you a simple "I love you." If you are willing to give that up, then :flare: shame on you!
So you want to know why God doesn't just fast forward time and put us where we'll end up? As His children, He enjoys watching us, as we do our children.
Now, I'm sure ya'll are going to pick apart my arguement, so I'll just sit here til you do. :p

I was simply browsing and a specific post caught my eye.

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Originally Posted by falling*moon

those who live like animals..

JUST eat....drink.....play....

eat....drink.....play....


and sin for ever ...ignoring Hell..!

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If you really mean that seriously I...I am at a loss for words.

This is why some people are atheists. They question their beliefs for a while and extremists end up shoving the Bible down their throats and telling them that they will go to Hell if they do not believe in God.

Now, I'm not an atheist. I am a practicing LDS member, but I do have respect enough for those who believe differently. It doesn't mean that Christians, Muslims, or whatever you are should shun them simply because they don't believe in a higher being. God told us to love everyone. And it should end right there.

Whoa - what's all this and where did it come from? Did you actually want a response to this post? I'm not even sure what it's trying to say.

I don't know how to do the quote boxes (please be so kind as to tell me). I was responding to a previous post by Wintermute.

Dante hit the http://www.online-literature.com/for...tons/quote.gif icon which appears near the bottom right corner of the person's post that you want to quote. The text shows automatically in your reply. (or you can delete the lines out that you aren't addressing, just make sure the [quote] boxes are still at the beginning and end of it) Using the quote function makes it *much* easier and clearer for everyone to know who you're posting to :)

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Originally Posted by Wandering_Child

This is why some people are atheists. They question their beliefs for a while and extremists end up shoving the Bible down their throats and telling them that they will go to Hell if they do not believe in God.

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Well, if hell's for real, and as bad as its described, do you blame people for getting a bit insistent that you really might want to avoid it? That aside, yes: some believers cross the line - but all "beliefs" have zealots (including atheists).

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Originally Posted by Wandering_Child

God told us to love everyone. And it should end right there.

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What should end right where?

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Originally Posted by Logos

Dante hit the http://www.online-literature.com/for...tons/quote.gif icon which appears near the bottom right corner of the person's post that you want to quote. The text shows automatically in your reply. (or you can delete the lines out that you aren't addressing, just make sure the quote boxes are still at the beginning and end of it) Using the quote function makes it *much* easier and clearer for everyone to know who you're posting to :)

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Bandiceet

One thing people tend to either don't know or deliberatly forget, is that Adolf Hitler was quite a devout Christian. One of the many theories that abound about why he did what he did to the Jews is because of a mis-construed interpritation of the Christian bible. Taking this view, WW2 was as relgious as it was anything else. Is that post-Renaissance enough for you?

Now, this is my first post here on these boards, and this is the first thread I have read, and went out of my way to join up so I can comment on it. Mind you, I have not read every single 600 odd replies.

I am in the bundle of people are classified as athiest. I find that Athiest is a name used for these people because the names like "Christian" or "Hindu" Or "Jew" or what ever don't convieniantly fit. Alot of Athiests have Faith, it is that they do not have Religion.

Beleif and Faith are very powerful things. Since it is very rare for a person to follow more than one religion at a time, this can make an interesting condry. Relgion "A" beleive that followers of Religion "B" will go to hell for not following Relgion "A". The opposite is also can be said. Since followers of both religions truely beleive the others will go to hell, then everyone will, because of that beleif.

If you think that is a load of Rubbish, that logic more opr less follows all the arguements I have ever been given that God exists.

When your god starts hating the same people you do, you know your god is made up.

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Congrats on joining the forum! I look forward to sparring minds with you. I also just joined to comment on this subject, and am now going to comment on your post. Here goes...
First off, I don't believe for one second that Adolf Hitler was a Christian, or at least a true Christian, one who means it, not just claims it. (We talked about this subject a few pages ago. You might want to read it to understand our terms.) During the time of Shakespeare, everyone in the culture was termed a "Christian", as in not a Jew or a muslim, not as in followers of Christ. Also at the time, Jews were picked on, beaten, stolen from, tortured, and anything else imaginable, and no one was punished for it. In Rome, Nero hunted down and killed the Christians, b/c he needed some to accuse of burning Rome.
Someone is always picking on someone else. The Jews were chosen as the lesser party for Hitler's mad rage. No way he was even near a Christian, more like demon possessed.
2) You want an arguement on whether God exists, go to pg 36 and 37 (I think) and read that. Then we'll talk. And as to God hating everyone, do you think that if God really did hate everyone, anyone would be alive? think about that. I'm sure you will respond. :)

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Well, if hell's for real, and as bad as its described, do you blame people for getting a bit insistent that you really might want to avoid it? That aside, yes: some believers cross the line - but all "beliefs" have zealots (including atheists).



What should end right where?

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There are always going to be some people who will never listen to what you have to say. I find it extremely irritating when some people insist on something that I don't agree with - even after I have told them thousands of times and they are still persistant. It annoys me greatly. I can't speak for everyone, but I would think that most people would agree with me.

Also, I don't want to turn this into a Christian thread, but I do not believe Hell is a real place. We believe it is a state of being. That said, I am almost finished.

About the second part: Forgive me. I did not expand - I do know some Christians who think it horrific that some people do not believe in a higher being. They shun them as if they had some dangerous disease. It is quite sickening and quite sad, seeing as these people profess themselves to be disciples of Christ, whose great commandment was to love everyone.

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Originally Posted by Wandering_Child

There are always going to be some people who will never listen to what you have to say. I find it extremely irritating when some people insist on something that I don't agree with - even after I have told them thousands of times and they are still persistant. It annoys me greatly. I can't speak for everyone, but I would think that most people would agree with me.

Also, I don't want to turn this into a Christian thread, but I do not believe Hell is a real place. We believe it is a state of being. That said, I am almost finished..

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As if that makes it any less of a torment.

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Originally Posted by Wandering_Child

About the second part: Forgive me. I did not expand - I do know some Christians who think it horrific that some people do not believe in a higher being. They shun them as if they had some dangerous disease. It is quite sickening and quite sad, seeing as these people profess themselves to be disciples of Christ, whose great commandment was to love everyone.

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OK - so you've had some bad experiences with believers. I'm sorry that happened. Being an idiot is not confined to non-believers: Christians are quite capable of the same.

As well, I'm not totally sure how your posting was supposed to contribute to the discussion at hand?

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

I find it interesting, a little sad, and in some instances scary. But not funny.

The folks that are slamming creationists can not really come up with an alternate theory of what started it all.

And the science bashers have almost certainly never had the opportunity to investigate what science really is all about. My sister is a professor of neurobiology and I take great offence at the notion that she is somehow a liberal na'er-do-well who's primary goal is to debunk someone's religion. She goes into the lab before dawn, and usually doesn't return home until after 9pm. She works very hard to understand the human brain an how in functions in order to better our lot--for very little monetary compensation. You folks that summarily dismiss scientists as mean-spirited, close minded, ignorant, whatevers...need to examine a mirror. No scientist that I know of has ever claimed to know with certainty what is going on in the universe. They theorize, examine, then re-theorize.

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I not trying to slam you or your sister, I'm taking what I have learned about the universe, examining the evidence, and proving what I have found to be true. Congratulations to your sister. She is trying to protect people's lives, I'm trying to protect their eternity. Science is not mean-spirited, close-minded, and ignorant, it is very useful in today's world. It has its place. But when people make it their god, and try to prove that life came from atoms that were never there, that wammed into each other, and made a perfect world full of monkeys that over a gagillion of years turned into people...maybe some are a little close-minded.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

As well, I'm not totally sure how your posting was supposed to contribute to the discussion at hand?

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Ah, and that's why I debated whether I should post here or not...I really thought I could have a small say in something without being bombarded and/or criticized. *shrugs* Religion is a picky, aggressive topic on any site you go to.

Anyways, I take my leave. Know that I hold you all in the highest esteem - Christian and Atheist alike.

*bows respectfully out of thread*

Thank you all for your welcome. I am sorry I have not had the chance to respond to those replying to my post. Since I posted that, I have gone to work and had a good nights sleep. (Yay for time zones!)

I have plenty else to ponderize over, but I am not sure a thread about Athiesim is the correct one to say it all, though it relevant to the generalised topic of what we are discussing. (I.E. Beleif systems and Religions.)

I find it difficult to put myself in any real pigeon hole on this due to the simple fact that neither side has offered me enough proof one way or the other. Basically every one can take what ever they want and put a small spin on the matter and claim that it is the proof that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

It also comes down to what you take out of something. You may find that many atheists follow the same principles as christianity, beleive that Jesus was a son of a carpenter and enjoyed a spot of fishing occasionally, but what they have difficulty with is taking that leap of faith that is required to beleive the water-into-wine, son-of-god, walking-on-water part of it all.

"Scientists have proof with out certainty, while Christians have certainty with out proof" - For the life of me I can not remember who said that, but it sums alot up quite neatly.