Glad you like it Janine. I'll post something on it later.
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Glad you like it Janine. I'll post something on it later.
I think that the "sunny" place is in Italy, and I agree with everything Janine said before, so I won't say much. What I have to say is that I was attracted by the ending, Maurice's attitude, and Juliet's closing thoughts, but we will discuss much more about it, so I won't say anything. Virgil, you made a great choice!!!
Amalia, I thought it was Italy, too, at first but then things lead me to think of Greece. I thought Italy since Lawrence, called Lorenzo there, lived in Italy a long stretch of time, so he would know it well, and the sun in Italy is something he wrote often about. It is prominent in his travel works. If you have not read them, amalia, you must. They are so intimate and interesting. One feels you are taking the journey at the side of Lawrence, himself. I loved those books!Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
Yes, please don't jump ahead to the ending, but I just wanted to mention the little bits of humor that were there near the end. Did you think so, as well as I? The 'glancing', etc. I don't want to say anymore, for others who have not read the story yet. Let us try and take this story sequencually, and see how it develops and builds up to a change in Julliet. Don't you agree that that would be less confusing and more logical? Oft times in these threads, we seem to charge right ahead to the ending and the main theme. I would like to mull it all over, since we do have a month or more to discuss it. I know that our best discussion on here and on book threads have had some kind of 'construct' such as this and they were more all-encompassing and engrossing.
As to whether it's a Greek or Italian island, I've come to the conclusion that it's an Italian that was Greek in ancient times. Here are a few of the Greek references:
andQuote:
Marinina was a woman of Magna Gracia, and had far memories.
andQuote:
So she remembered that the Greeks had said, a white, unsunned body was fishy and unhealthy.
But Marinina is referred to as the "Signora" and I think I caught a couple of other Italianism. Perhaps Lawrence just blurred it togther, but I think there is significance that there are allusions to the ancient Greek world.Quote:
Maurice was standing grey-faced, in his grey felt hat and his dark grey suit, at a loss among the vine terraces. He looked pathetically out of place, in that resplendent sunshine and the grace of the old Greek world; like a blot of ink on the pale, sun-glowing slope.
Does anyone know what "Magna Gracia" means or refers to?
Oh edit. I found this:
That settles that. My suspicion was correct.Quote:
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
Magna Graecia
SYLLABICATION: Magna Grae·cia
PRONUNCIATION: grsh
The ancient Greek seaport colonies of southern Italy and Sicily from the eighth to the fourth century b.c. Cumae and Tarantum (modern Taranto) remained significant after the decline of the other colonies.
Interesting the story starts at midnight, where Maurice and Juliet are departing. Yes, Janine it is significant that they are departing from NY, the heart of the modern world. And very interesting observation Amalia that she is departing from the supposed freedom under the Statue of Liberty to the freedom of the island. I found these paragraphs significant from the openning:
Notice the metaphors and similies: "hot iron into her soul," "iron rythm of habit," and "two engines running at variance." This story is a story of regeneration by abandoning the modern world to repose in the old ancient world. Unfortunately we do not really know what has caused this relationship to reach this crisis, but we can suspect that it has to do with the rituals of the modern world are not conducive a good relationship, in opposition of course the rituals of the old world.Quote:
She remembered how bitterly they had wanted to get away from one another, he
and she. The emotion of parting gave a slight tug at her emotions, but only
caused the iron that had gone into her soul to gore deeper.
So, they looked at their sleeping son, and the father's eyes were wet. But it
is not the wetting of the eyes which counts, it is the deep iron rhythm of
habit, the year-long, life-long habits; the deep-set stroke of power.
And in their two lives the power was hostile, his and hers. Like two engines
running at variance with each other, they shattered one another.
Yes, that does seem to be significant that she is leaving at midnight and this starts the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Hey, Virgil, am I crazy or what? Didn't I say that, about the 'freedom of the statue and the freedom of the island'. Note:
Quote:
Wow, that is simple, but amazing prose. It is appropriate and one feels the 'journey of departing' in one simplistic paragraph. I love the line 'Liberty flung up her torch in a tantrum' and the last line leaves me thinking now on the upcoming journey, across the wide ocean, in the suggestion of this line 'There was the wash of the sea' - marvelous!
I think that it is interesting that she is leaving Liberty to find liberty. Also, in Lawrence's statement 'Liberty' becomes a character in the story, as does later - the 'sun'. Fascinating and quite different than other things I have read by L. In fact, this passage reminded me of the poem by Carl Sandburg - "Fog' where he very simplistically describes 'fog', as though it were a cat. One gets such a sense of the fog infiltrating one's senses. Do you know the poem? I believe it is by Sandburg, but I will check that in some books or online to be certain.
Nice observations. Those are great metaphors/similies! I also like "..,they shattered one another." Yes, so right - leaving the modern world to enter into the ancient one for renewal and regeneration. It does seem the relationship has suffered under the restrictions of society and the industrial world, doesn't it? Good word - rituals. :)Quote:
Notice the metaphors and similies: "hot iron into her soul," "iron rythm of habit," and "two engines running at variance." This story is a story of regeneration by abandoning the modern world to repose in the old ancient world. Unfortunately we do not really know what has caused this relationship to reach this crisis, but we can suspect that it has to do with the rituals of the modern world are not conducive a good relationship, in opposition of course the rituals of the old world.
You two made excelelnt remarks, in fact, you answered a lot of my questions regarding the beginning of the story. I would like to ask whether the choice of the heroine's name has any special significance. I would dare to suggest- although, I'm probably wrong, but never mind- that "Juliet" may stand for the "freedom" theme, influenced by Shakepeare's heroine. It is an exaggeration, but I wanted to say that.
I would also want to say that we have, again, the influence of Nature in the beginning. The sea, the sun, notice how black colour is once again significant, "the black night", and I think that the phrase "...the serpent of chaos that has lived forever", is important. I think-and correct if I am wrong-that the serpent is the symbol of wisdom, and temptation, of course. I believe the "Temptation" here is the escape from the suffocating life she has led up to this point.
In the three paragraphs you emntioned, which are some of the most telling in the story, I could see another example of an unhappy marriage, coming from Lawrence. The phrase "...they had wanted to get away from one another..." is very important. Also, the word "power" is something to contmplate on. I think that Maurice wants the power to prevent his wife from the Change, and Juliet would want the chance to lead her own way of living. I think that the contrast in the phrases "All ashore", "Out to Sea", depicts this ''fight", respectively. Maurice' s attitude towards life has to do with the safety of habbit, as I would say, and the "Out to Sea" command emphasises Juliet's desire for the freedom of exploring life.
Oh I'm sorry janine. I had read the posts earlier in the day and I guess i mixed up who said what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Very good Amalia. I think you're right. That is a play where sun and moon and light and dark are in constant play. You reminded me of this famous line from the play: "But soft! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east and Juliet is the sun."Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
I have to say that the serpent confuses me. Yes there is that metaphor of the serpent at the beginning, but there is also the snake that shows up in part II I think that threatens the boy. I'm not sure what to make of it. But certainly Lawrence was after something. Wisdom and temptation is certainly one part of the symbol, I agree. I can't help but feel that this is a rather complex symbol, multifaceted. Perhaps we can figure it out by the end of our discussion of this story. The snake is a creature that likes to sit in the sun.Quote:
I would also want to say that we have, again, the influence of Nature in the beginning. The sea, the sun, notice how black colour is once again significant, "the black night", and I think that the phrase "...the serpent of chaos that has lived forever", is important. I think-and correct if I am wrong-that the serpent is the symbol of wisdom, and temptation, of course. I believe the "Temptation" here is the escape from the suffocating life she has led up to this point.
Good points on power. Juliet seems to have all the power in this story, which is quite different from most of Lawrence's stories. Yes, on Maurice's safety of habit, but Juliet goes on to form another habit. The bulk of the story is Juliet's habit of sitting in the sun. So it's not so much habit, but the type of habit.Quote:
In the three paragraphs you emntioned, which are some of the most telling in the story, I could see another example of an unhappy marriage, coming from Lawrence. The phrase "...they had wanted to get away from one another..." is very important. Also, the word "power" is something to contmplate on. I think that Maurice wants the power to prevent his wife from the Change, and Juliet would want the chance to lead her own way of living. I think that the contrast in the phrases "All ashore", "Out to Sea", depicts this ''fight", respectively. Maurice' s attitude towards life has to do with the safety of habbit, as I would say, and the "Out to Sea" command emphasises Juliet's desire for the freedom of exploring life.
You know on reconsideration I take back my statement that Lawrence doesn't write stories with women having power. But usually women having power is not a good thing in a Lawrence story. (Sorry, he would definitely be considered a male chauvinist by today's standards.) But here it is a good thing. Juliet (and by suggestion even Marianina) have established what Lawrence would consider a wholesome life. Let me also prefigure what I'll argue later in that there is a male power in this story that orients that wholesome life, and it's not Maurice, but the sun as male diety. But that's for later discussion. ;)
Oh...ok....you are forgiven...:) Anyway, Amalia might have said it too...we are like twins sometimes....haha;) right, A?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Funny, Amalia and I think the same way. I had noticed the significance of the name 'Juliet', as well, and wondered about it relating to Shakespeare's heroine. I think this quote is terrific and makes this connection so evident and clear now to us all. I agree with the idea and the aspects of the contrasts of 'dark and light' and 'shadow and sunlight' and the 'moon and the sun'...there are many more I am sure, throughout the story. Very significant. Imagery is everything to Lawrence. He paints with words exquisitely.Quote:
Very good Amalia. I think you're right. That is a play where sun and moon and light and dark are in constant play. You reminded me of this famous line from the play: "But soft! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east and Juliet is the sun."
This story also reminds me so of "The Plumed Serpent" - the sunlight plays such a huge part in that story. I think this all ties in with the themes presented in that book - the sun worship and the various other symbolic ritualistic meanings; also the moon. I don't know exactly the connection, but it is suggesting this to me very strongly. Was it written around the same time period, do you know, V?
Right away I thought of a poem L wrote about a 'snake' or 'serpent' in the grass. I will look it up and post later. I also thought of "The Plumed Serpent", as well, again in the tribal mystical sense of the way it is presented in that book. So true that the sun is serpent-like and masters Juliet in the beginning of the story. It seems that she is filled with it's warm and sexuality and the full spirit of the sun. She gives herself over to the sun's power and only then does she relax and become her true self. She becomes complete and sensual after bathing in the sun and absorbing it's power and warmth. It is all quite complex, I believe, and as you said - mulifaceted. It all relays to me this whole unique concept L had in his later novels; and as you know, some were 'way out' and pretty extreme. Their meanings are not easily comprehended or fully understood. I keep on trying to understand it all though which makes it more fascinating.Quote:
I have to say that the serpent confuses me. Yes there is that metaphor of the serpent at the beginning, but there is also the snake that shows up in part II I think that threatens the boy. I'm not sure what to make of it. But certainly Lawrence was after something. Wisdom and temptation is certainly one part of the symbol, I agree. I can't help but feel that this is a rather complex symbol, multifaceted. Perhaps we can figure it out by the end of our discussion of this story. The snake is a creature that likes to sit in the sun.
Hey, Virgil, maybe you need to go back and read your thesis again and fill us in. You know more about "Transfiguration" in L's work than we all do....haha...what do yo say?
I am thinking of' Lady Chatterly' as well. I think she had some power and some strength as a woman, to confront her husband, as well as Juliet does. I was thinking of Connie, as I read this book. She, too, goes through a whole transformation. I see L's mother as a powerful force in "Sons and Lovers" - don't you and I see her as a strong woman - although it was not necessarily good for Paul in the end. I don't usually feel as though L is all for the men either. I think in his work there is a definite 'war of the sexes' in some sense of the phrase. There is always some sort of struggle between man and woman.Quote:
Good points on power. Juliet seems to have all the power in this story, which is quite different from most of Lawrence's stories. Yes, on Maurice's safety of habit, but Juliet goes on to form another habit. The bulk of the story is Juliet's habit of sitting in the sun. So it's not so much habit, but the type of habit.
Oops ...I see you took back your statement. Oh well, I wrote a few of my own thoughts above. Also is not the man at the end of the story - the one having a picnic with wine outside with his wife representative, in Juliet's eyes, as a sort of sun-god to be longed for? In some sense the sun is now embodied in a real life breathing blood male. I felt that was interesting. I guess I acquired this idea from the book "The Plumed Serpent" since I recently finished that novel. Amalia, maybe you should read it. I think you would see things in it that I did not even interpret - you are so keen and perceptive.Quote:
You know on reconsideration I take back my statement that Lawrence doesn't write stories with women having power. But usually women having power is not a good thing in a Lawrence story. (Sorry, he would definitely be considered a male chauvinist by today's standards.) But here it is a good thing. Juliet (and by suggestion even Marianina) have established what Lawrence would consider a wholesome life. Let me also prefigure what I'll argue later in that there is a male power in this story that orients that wholesome life, and it's not Maurice, but the sun as male diety. But that's for later discussion. ;)
Just read a few pages of my thesis, looking for what my ideas were back then. Let me say that this story, "Sun", was written just about immediately after The Plumed Serpent, sometime in 1925. I bet that the imaginative spark for the story occured because he was ill with TB and had to return to Europe. Janine can you look up the details of when the story was written, whether in Eurpoe or while in the US? You have that book on Lawrence's calandar. Also he was having many marital problems with Frieda at this time, so one can see how Lawrence projects himself into Juliet: the trip back to Europe, the return to Italy, the recooping from illness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
That is an interesting statement, and it may fit, but where do you see that the sun is serpent like?Quote:
So true that the sun is serpent-like and masters Juliet in the beginning of the story. It seems that she is filled with it's warm and sexuality and the full spirit of the sun.
Yes, over her husband, and how natural was that relationship? And isn't the process of the story her giving up her will to Mellors?Quote:
I am thinking of' Lady Chatterly' as well. I think she had some power and some strength as a woman, to confront her husband, as well as Juliet does. I was thinking of Connie, as I read this book. She, too, goes through a whole transformation.
:lol:Here is what I dug up in a book by Sagar; D.H.Lawrence, "A Calender of his Works"...hummm very nice book and quite informative...:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I thought that whole entry was really interesting from several standpoints. Interesting that the story had several versions, and what Lawrence said about it, being too long.Quote:
December 1925 At Villa Bernarda, Spotorno, Italy.
*12 Dec. To Hon. Dorthy Brett: I had the typing...I send you 'Sun'....I'm still struggling with my 'Gay Ghosts'. Alas and a thousand times alack, it's growing long --too long. Damn it! Even 'Sun' is a bit too long [Irvine 2,59]. The typing was probably 'Smile', which Lawrence sent to Nacny Pearn a week later. It was published in New Massesm June 1926 [Finney 3].
'Sun' exists in two versions. Lawrence's own comments suggest that his original story was expurgated for publication in New Coterie, autumn 1926, and the Archer Sun [A35a] and 'The Woman Who Rode Away' [A41] and was not printed in its original form until the Black Sun Press edition in October 1928 [A35b]. On 29 April 1928 lawrence was to write to Harry Crosby: 'Sun is the final MS, and I wish the story had been printed as it stands there, really complete [Huxley 730]. It seems more likely, however, that lawrence was practising a little mild deception on Harry Crosby, and that the original MS corresponded to the first purblished version, and was subsequently burned by Lawrence. See April 1928.
'Gay Ghosts' became 'Ghost of Silence', and, finally, 'Glad Ghosts'.
Yes, you are correct, Virgil, in assuming Lawrence was back in Italy, for convalesent purposes, no doubt. I think after leaving Mexico and New Mexico (he was then diagnosed positively with the TB) he came back to Italy to seek a more restorative environment, in hopes of reviving and recovering his health. This entry above was 1925, so that he lived another 5 yrs and in that time he wrote a number of notable things such as "The Escaped **** (The Man Who Died) and LCL and then the Travel novels. God knows what else - tons of stuff in those 5 yrs. Amazing...and you thought him near death when writing this story....not quite; L was not going to give in to his illness. One his 40th birthday he wrote this entry:
Amazing to think those were the words of someone as ill as Lawrence was.Quote:
January 1926 At Villa Bernardo, Spotorno.
SUMMARY No, no! I'm forty, and I want, in a good sense, to enjoy my life. Saying my say and seeing other people sup it up doesn't amount to a hill o'beans, as far as I go. I want to waste no time over it. That's why I have an agent. I want my own life to live [Moore 876]. Lawrence wrote The Virgin and the Gypsy [A54], 'Mediterranean in January' and 'Beyond the Rockies' [C139 and CP]
Ok, I think maybe you are right and there is no direct reference to the sun as a serpent. I probably was putting the thoughts of the sun together with what I had read in "The Plumed Serpent"...there I believe the sun is referred to at times serpent like or as a serpent. I did recall in this story the beginning with the line "At that moment the sea seemed to heave like the serpent of chaos, that has lived for ever." - therefore I was thinking of Lawrence's reference to things of the past and rituals and traditions, such as with the American Indians in Mexico, and the connection to their manliness and their virility and their sun serpent-like power, because then later, in "Sun" is this part, when Julliet wakes in the morning:Quote:
That is an interesting statement, and it may fit, but where do you see that the sun is serpent like?
Then a little later are these passages:Quote:
Again a morning when the sun lifted himself naked and molten, sparkling over the seas rim. The house faced south-west. Juliet lay in her bed and watched him rise. It was as if she had never seen the sun rise before. She had never seen the naked sun stand up pure upon the sea-line, shaking the night off himself.
Wow, that whole passage and the one before is certainly sensual and sexually suggestive, don't you think? Also, I was putting two and two together ,when I came up with this analogy with the snake, which is a deity symbol in Mexico and other places in the world - didn't King Tut's mask have a serpent at the top showing royalty? Ok, so now read the snake passage:Quote:
She was thinking inside herself, of the sun in his splendour, and her mating with him. Her life was now a whle ritual.She lay always awake, before dawn, watching for the sea's edge. Her joy was when he rose all molten in his nakedness, and threw off blue-white fire, into the tender heaven.
But sometimes he came ruddy, like a big, shy creature. And sometimes slow and crimson red, with a look of anger slowly pushing and shouldering. Sometimes again she could not see him, only the level cloud threw down gold and scarlet from above, as he moved behind the wall.
Hmmm, very suggestive of the male sexual organ/the woman as the 'body of the rocks'. Snakes are usually phallic symbols; I am sure that L was well aware of this fact. Getting all of this down, Q?Quote:
The snake had sunk down, and was reaching away from the coils in which it had been basking asleep, and slowly was easing it's long, gold-brown body into the rocks, with slow curves.......
then this:
This part suggests the 'interconnectability' of all things in nature, cosmos; so that lead me to think and compare passages of the 'sun' and of the 'snake' and I can see similarities in each passage, can you see them? Also, Lawrence uses here the word 'like a charm'....suggesting strongly snake charmers or myticism in my mind. snakes as symbols in various 'sun' worshipping cultures.Quote:
The curious soothing power of the sun filled her, filled the whole place like a charm, and the snake was part of the place, along with her and the child.
Well, that is to be debated, probably more so when we read the novel LCL. I would say for now that is a hard question to definitively answer. Is she really giving over to Mellors or is she freeing herself and meeting him in the middle. I am not so sure he is being dominent as far as Connie is concerned. Now who is to know exacly what will happen with Julliet and her husband. He, too, might be transfigured by the sun. He said he would try it in the nude - wow, he is being rather co-operative I would say for such a 'stuffed-shirt'. So maybe he will realize the restorative qualities of basking in the sun and also become part of the snake, woman, child scene. The story is open-ended and so one can draw their own conclusion to how it will go from here on in. It all depends on ones outlook and how you view the ending. Is it sad or is it actually hopeful?Quote:
Yes, over her husband, and how natural was that relationship? And isn't the process of the story her giving up her will to Mellors?
I will tempt to link the serpent question-which has attracted my attention, and has greatly confused me, as well- with the following beautiful description of Lawrence, which depicts the influence of Nature, once again.
[QUOTE:
“And though the Atlantic was grey as lava, she did come at last into the sun. Even she had a house above the pluest if seas, with a vast garden, or vineyard, all vines and olives steeply, terrace after terrace, to the strip of coast- plain; and the garden full of secret places, deep groves of lemon far down in the cleft of the earth, and hidden, pure green reservoirs of water; then a spring issuing out of a little cavern, where the old Sicules had drunk before the Greeks came; and a grey goat bloating, stabled in a ancient tomb, with all the niches empty. There was the scent of mimosa and beyond the snow of the volcano” QUOTE]
I think that this is a description of an Eden- like place, and the garden has a certain connotation, as a symbol of the unknown, if you like, something mysterious. I would venture to say that it can be another image for the temptation of escaping the present life.
The repetition of “lava”, and “volcano”, is significant too, in my opinion. I have read that volcano often stands as a symbol for the hidden female nature, at least, in poetry, especially in poems by Elizabeth Bishop and Louise Bogan, but there is a possibility that this symbolism is eligible in our story, as well. You know, just as an idea.
I just fininnsed reading the Sun, and I must say I really did enjoy it. I thought the story read almost like poetic verse. I loved the discription of Juliet's love affair with the sun and the errotic emagery that Lawrence used in the way in which the sun caressed her and penetrated her, embraring her within its warmth and the way she was cast almost as some nymph, frolicking naked under the light of the sun.
One of the things I really enjoyed about the story, was the way Juilet's relationship to her son was portrayed particuarly towrd the beginning.
"The child irritated her, and preyed on her peace of mind. She felt so horribly, ghastly responsible for him: as if she must be responsible for every breath he drew. And that was torture to her, to the child, and to everyone else concerned."
That struck me as very real, I could see, how having a child paricuarly if it is a first child could make a woman feel repressed in a way and as if some of her own freedom and independnce is taken away becasue she has to put so much of herself in the care for this other being.
That is one of the thing I really like about Lawrence the way he likes to expose these seceret parts of the mind and bring them to light and to the surface, though and emotions that most people keep locked away and hidden deep within, he seems to understand so well.
Hi amalia, did you read my post directly before yours, long one with the quotes about serpents and their possible significance, or connection to the sun. I hope that did not confuse you; sorry if it did.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
I see perfectly what you are getting at here and this is a fascinating thought and idea. 'The Garden of Eden' is certainly an interesting aspect to look at in this story. The text does seems to imply this in that one paragraph; everything is so pure and perfect. I requoted below:
Quote:
“And though the Atlantic was grey as lava, she did come at last into the sun. Even she had a house above the bluest if seas, with a vast garden, or vineyard, all vines and olives steeply, terrace after terrace, to the strip of coast-plain; and the garden full of secret places, deep groves of lemon far down in the cleft of the earth, and hidden, pure green reservoirs of water; then a spring issuing out of a little cavern, where the old Sicules had drunk before the Greeks came; and a grey goat bleating, stabled in a ancient tomb, with all the niches empty. There was the scent of mimosa and beyond the snow of the volcano”
amalia, smart thinking - this is really good, I had not thought of that exactly in this way, but Virgil did mention before, that this story is a revisiting of an ancient time and world; and your idea is perfect, too. There is a lot going on here, in this one paragraph, don't you agree? It certainly does seem to indicate a sort of paradise and 'Eden' for Juliet, and from what I have read after "Plumed Serpent" Lawrence went back to Italy and turned futher away from the Indian myths, he had explored in that book, and went more in the direction of exploring Christinanity, but not in a 'conventional' way as well know, by reading the book "The Man Who Died". Interesting also to note that in his Italian Travel books, the first book, "Twilight in Italy", Lawrence goes on a long hike/kind of quest into the mountains and observes crossed and shrines enroute and ponders on these. His vision of this road is quite extraordinary. So what I am trying to say, is that at this period in L's writing, I think it totally conceivable, that he is thinking in terms of Eden and Biblical references. Didn't the serpent tempt Eve? I would think this something to think about in reference to the story, as well. At the end the woman, Juliet, is tempted to have an affair with the peasant. This all seems curious to me - the connections.Quote:
I think that this is a description of an Eden- like place, and the garden has a certain connotation, as a symbol of the unknown, if you like, something mysterious. I would venture to say that it can be another image for the temptation of escaping the present life.
In the passage you quoted the imagery is lovely and 'idllyic' and very much rooted in the old world, or the Bible, and it's naturalic qualities. I like the reference to "the garden full of secret places". I think this is a direct analogy to a woman's body, since Lawrence used this phrase often in his poetry and in "Lady Chatterly's Lover", etc. Perhaps the woman, Juliet, personifies or embodies the whole idea of the Garden of Eden. She has not only undergone a 'tranformation/transfiguration', but moved back into a time of complete beauty and paradise, and purity. Also, if Lawrence is embodying the Garden of Eden in Juliet, then I would think he is saying that sexuality is totally natural and goes back to day #1 on the earth. This would support all his naturistic ideals. Probably there are direct references in Genesis to that paragraph and each element - like the blue sea, the lemons, reservoirs of water, etc.
Oh, I like this symbolism. It is such an interesting thought and would definitely fit the way in which Lawrence thought and wrote. The lava I am sure would indicate the male's role, don't you? I don't know the works of those poets you listed, but I will have to look them up...sounds interesting.Quote:
The repetition of “lava”, and “volcano”, is significant too, in my opinion. I have read that volcano often stands as a symbol for the hidden female nature, at least, in poetry, especially in poems by Elizabeth Bishop and Louise Bogan, but there is a possibility that this symbolism is eligible in our story, as well. You know, just as an idea.
Lawrence wrote a poem called "Snake". I find it strange that in the poem he uses these words to describe the snake:
In "Sun" he refers to the snake this way: "The snake had sunk down, and was reaching away from the coils in which it had been basking asleep, and slowly was easing it's gold-brown body into the rocks, with slow curves."Quote:
Being earth-brown, earth golden, from the burning bowels
of the earth
On the day of Sicilian July, with Etna smoking.
Rather similiar, I think, plus again, there is the reference to a 'volcano' in the line the "burning bowels of the earth" (quote from the poem, above) and the name of one. This would certainly correspond to your idea of the volcano and what it suggests or represents. Other parallels seem to be the mentioning of a Siciian July and Etna smoking...again the volcano.
You sent me in an interesting direction thinking, amalia - thanks; good post!:thumbs_up
Then the last three stanzas:
It would be good to read the entire poem, of course, but one can see what direction Lawrence's mind and thoughts took...snake, serpent, king, diety, etc. Not sure when this poem was written. I will try to look that up. It maybe around the same time period. I believe it was when he lived in Italy but not sure which time period that was.Quote:
And I thought of the albatross,
And I wished he would come back, my snake.
For he seemed to me again like a king,
Like a king in exile, uncrowned in the underworld,
Now due to be crowned again.
And so, I missed my chance with one of the lords
Of life,
And I have somethings to expiate;
A pettiness.
That makes me think of the Ancient Mariner by ColeridgeQuote:
And I thought of the albatross,
And I wished he would come back, my snake.
For he seemed to me again like a king,
Like a king in exile, uncrowned in the underworld,
Now due to be crowned again.
And so, I missed my chance with one of the lords
Of life,
And I have somethings to expiate;
A pettiness.
It is intresting the similarties between the imagery of the snake, in the poem Snake, and the story Sun, as well as both having a volcanic reference.
Hi Dark Muse, so good to see you here and glad you enjoyed the story. I think everyone who read it liked it very much. It is hard to dislike a story about something as bright and beautiful as the sun. Yes, some others in the thread also thought it read like a long prose poem. I fully agree; it flows so easily and beautifully, with uncomplicated words which put together makeup some lovely poetic prose, with a deeper meaning/symbolism and great 'errotic imagery' - good observation, on your part, and good way of expressing that. I had not thought of the 'nymph' idea, but it certainly could be another thing to consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, and I think this aspect of the story very worthwhile to review and look at. For one things she has a full 'transformation' about the child, as well as herself. In fact, by the end of the story, she is considering having an affair with the peasant man, just to concieve a child. Strange, when in the beginning of the tale, she could hardly even look at, touch or warm up to her young child.Quote:
One of the things I really enjoyed about the story, was the way Juilet's relationship to her son was portrayed particuarly towrd the beginning.
I think this is realistic and your expressed it very well. Often too, women do suffer true depression, after the birth of a baby. I seems that somewhere the husband eludes to this fact or mentions it to have been the case with Juliet.Quote:
"The child irritated her, and preyed on her peace of mind. She felt so horribly, ghastly responsible for him: as if she must be responsible for every breath he drew. And that was torture to her, to the child, and to everyone else concerned."
Quote:
That struck me as very real, I could see, how having a child paricuarly if it is a first child could make a woman feel repressed in a way and as if some of her own freedom and independnce is taken away becasue she has to put so much of herself in the care for this other being.
Yes, I fully agree with your assessment. Lawrence delves far below the surface, and shows what is going on beneath, with 'though and emotions', and also 'subconsious' realms of the mind.Quote:
That is one of the thing I really like about Lawrence the way he likes to expose these seceret parts of the mind and bring them to light and to the surface, though and emotions that most people keep locked away and hidden deep within, he seems to understand so well.
I thought the ending was kind of bittersweet in a way. To a degree Juilet seems to have found a certain peace of mind and contement in the freedom she has found, and yet still she finds herself trapped there, when she is desparing about her dreams of having the affair but instead she will bare another child by Maurice.
It almost makes you wonder, if perhaps the fact that it was Maurice's child the first time, led to her feelings about it in the beginning. For she began to wam up to the child more it seemd when the child began to embrace the sun as she had and become more like her.
One of the things if found intresting was the way in which Maurice seemed at first so timid and awakard around her when he came to visit, almost as if he was afried of her wildness. It was as if her will and perosnality overwelmed him. And I love the way he was descirbed as being all in gray alongside her sun kissed and raidant body, casing him almost as her shadow. Something of which she has to drag along with her, and will never be completely free of.
It is kind of ironic the way Juilet talks of Maurice:
Sometimes he glanced at her frutively, from under his black lashes. He had the gold-gray eyes of an animal that has been caught young, and reared compeltely in captivity"
In a way I think the same could be applied to her, she is like an animal that has been kept in the bond of captivity and yet still yearns for that feralness.
Wow, such great participation.
I think now we have the context under which the story was written down pat. We can see how this reflects his personal life, though I still maintain that doesn't really mean that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I can buy into this, but still it doesn't seem complete does it?Quote:
Hmmm, very suggestive of the male sexual organ/the woman as the 'body of the rocks'. Snakes are usually phallic symbols; I am sure that L was well aware of this fact.
I like the interconnectivity of things. Let go back and see.Quote:
This part suggests the 'interconnectability' of all things in nature, cosmos; so that lead me to think and compare passages of the 'sun' and of the 'snake' and I can see similarities in each passage, can you see them? Also, Lawrence uses here the word 'like a charm'....suggesting strongly snake charmers or myticism in my mind. snakes as symbols in various 'sun' worshipping cultures.
Well, we can leave that discussion for the spring.Quote:
Well, that is to be debated, probably more so when we read the novel LCL. I would say for now that is a hard question to definitively answer. Is she really giving over to Mellors or is she freeing herself and meeting him in the middle. I ...?
Yes, to me the snake suggests the garden of eden and the paradise Juliet is in. Not sure about vulcanos though. I always thought they might be a phallic symbol.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
Hahaha, volcanos, not 'vulcanos' ;) and it depends on which direction you are looking at them, from the summit or the base. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Hey, Virgil, can you give me some feedback on my previous post about connecting the serpent and the sun - it was in answer to you post questions. It is about 3 or 4 back now (on previous page). Thanks! :D
Oh sorry, I see you did answer some of it....I did a lot of typing and preparation - real mind boggling thought - my brain even hurts from thinking so hard for that post:eek: . I thought I had some good ideas, but I guess not, unless you skimmed....:( It is post #570
You have to be careful Janine. He was in Italy before he went around the world and ultimately New Mexico and now here he is returning to Italy. There are several Italy travel books: Twilight in Italy and Other Essays (1916), Sea and Sardinia (1921), Sketches of Etruscan Places and other Italian essays (1932). I'm not sure which one you are referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
That is an interesting idea you two have come up with. The snake posing a danger can be seen as the male intruding into their woman's world. But the snake is essentially powerless here. Juliet does have him under control. Interesting. But how does the snake fit with the sun diety theme?Quote:
In the passage you quoted the imagery is lovely and 'idllyic' and very much rooted in the old world, or the Bible, and it's naturalic qualities. I like the reference to "the garden full of secret places". I think this is a direct analogy to a woman's body, since Lawrence used this phrase often in his poetry and in "Lady Chatterly's Lover", etc. Perhaps the woman, Juliet, personifies or embodies the whole idea of the Garden of Eden. She has not only undergone a 'tranformation/transfiguration', but moved back into a time of complete beauty and paradise, and purity. Also, if Lawrence is embodying the Garden of Eden in Juliet, then I would think he is saying that sexuality is totally natural and goes back to day #1 on the earth. This would support all his naturistic ideals. Probably there are direct references in Genesis to that paragraph and each element - like the blue sea, the lemons, reservoirs of water, etc.
Opps, to my eternal shame :blush: - you are correct. I am sorry for posting that wrong. Am I forgiven? Anyway, he did write other travel books or sketches, but not those first two; however, "Etruscan Places" was written after the short story "Sun". That would make sense wouldn't it? I had thought he visited them not much before he died; in fact, he died in 1930 so they published those posthumously, right? Gee, this book is fascinating with the timetable in it. I started to read it, here and there, and now I want to read the entire thing. Thanks for the suggestion, V. This is a great source book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Virgil, I am kind of getting annoyed with you now, yes... seriously:rage: :brickwall You are not the only one who can be BM&D... just because you are Italian, you know! :lol:Quote:
That is an interesting idea you two have come up with. The snake posing a danger can be seen as the male intruding into their woman's world. But the snake is essentially powerless here. Juliet does have him under control. Interesting. But how does the snake fit with the sun diety theme?
Did you only 'skim' my very involved post about this subject of the snake and the deity idea?
It is post #570 on the previous page, and I think it got buried by now.:( I was trying to express the various ways serpents were used to symbolise deities. The yellow snake and the way it absorbs the sun suggests to me the connection. I quoted a number of passages there (which I hand-typed in). In "The Plumed Serpent", which he wrote just prior to "Sun" he uses the symbol in conjuction with plumed or a bird-like creature and these combine to represent the deity - don't you recall the men wearing the Serpent symbol? I think it was on their head or a band around their forhead. It was so prominent in that book. The sun also, was prominent in this symbol and their connection to the sun and the stars and the cosmos. In that book it is true that the 'morning star' and the 'evening star' were most prominent, but the sun also played a huge role in the story. In one scene Cipriano goes into the water and is lighted up by the sun and appears to Kate as a column of fire. Also, in the book is interwoven the whole idea of sexuality/sensuality, as is prominent, in this story "Sun".
If you read the entire poem of "Snake" there are a few stanzas, that indicate that the snake entering a crack in the stone wall, actually frightens the author. I kept thinking that sexually, Lawrence had this strange fear of being swallowed up by the female. This probably originated with his mother. I may be why predominently in his works the male dominates. I have read various theories on this idea, so I think it possible. In this story, the woman is not in fear of the man, but is the man in fear of the woman? The snake is powerless by choice, and perhaps, so is the husband. Also, he has not had the benefits yet of the sun. Who knows - maybe he will become sensual, when softened by the mystical sun and lose his fears. In his present state he can only glance at his naked wife. Is he showing shyness or fear?
You're forgiven. :p :D It does look like the Etruscan essays came out as a book after he died, but they may have individually been published in magazines. I bet you calandar of days book would say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Oh you are angry at me too. Well, get on line. I bet half of lit net is angry at me. :p It goes with being Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know. :D I did read you post #570 and i even replied to it. I didn't exactly reply to that specific part of your post directly, I combined Amalia's and your thoughts together. Didn't i say it was an interesting idea you two have come up with? Let me double highlight what you just said that I think is very important:Quote:
Virgil, I am kind of getting annoyed with you now, yes... seriously:rage: :brickwall You are not the only one who can be BM&D... just because you are Italian, you know! :lol:
Did you only 'skim' my very involved post about this subject of the snake and the deity idea?
It is post #570 on the previous page, and I think it got buried by now.:( I was trying to express the various ways serpents were used to symbolise deities. The yellow snake and the way it absorbs the sun suggests to me the connection. I quoted a number of passages there (which I hand-typed in). In "The Plumed Serpent", which he wrote just prior to "Sun" he uses the symbol in conjuction with plumed or a bird-like creature and these combine to represent the deity - don't you recall the men wearing the Serpent symbol? I think it was on their head or a band around their forhead. It was so prominent in that book. The sun also, was prominent in this symbol and their connection to the sun and the stars and the cosmos. In that book it is true that the 'morning star' and the 'evening star' were most prominent, but the sun also played a huge role in the story. In one scene Cipriano goes into the water and is lighted up by the sun and appears to Kate as a column of fire. Also, in the book is interwoven the whole idea of sexuality/sensuality, as is prominent, in this story "Sun".
The power of the sun is interwoven with the overall power of the cosmos, which is a sort of godhead for life.Quote:
The sun also, was prominent in this symbol and their connection to the sun and the stars and the cosmos.
Now that is interesting. Yes, the snake could represent the husband! I think you're right. I will have to re-read the story to be sure. And by the way, the poem "Snake" does compliment this story. I had my doubts when you brought it up, but now that I've read the entire poem, I see the connections.Quote:
If you read the entire poem of "Snake" there are a few stanzas, that indicate that the snake entering a crack in the stone wall, actually frightens the author. I kept thinking that sexually, Lawrence had this strange fear of being swallowed up by the female. This probably originated with his mother. I may be why predominently in his works the male dominates. I have read various theories on this idea, so I think it possible. In this story, the woman is not in fear of the man, but is the man in fear of the woman? The snake is powerless by choice, and perhaps, so is the husband. Also, he has not had the benefits yet of the sun. Who knows - maybe he will become sensual, when softened by the mystical sun and lose his fears. In his present state he can only glance at his naked wife. Is he showing shyness or fear?
Glad of that....now will you forgive me for getting annoyed (angry) with you? :D You know I could never be angry too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Virgil, you sure have me doing a lot of homework;) You and Quark advise me to slow up; and I am the one looking up all this stuff and...
now Quark wants me to state 'specific chapters' in S&L's and here I thought he had those bits pretty well highlighted in his book! ;)
Grrr...Eekkk...ok, going now to look up the Etruscan essays - it might also say in my Italian tavel book 'forward'.
Ok, looking them up seems to reveal that he was visiting the tombs, as far back as 1927, then he mentions being half-way through writing the essays sometime in 1929, but from there I don't see an entry as to when he completed "Etruscan Places". I also just looked in the forward to "L.H.Lawrence and Italy", and I can't see anywhere, that it actually states anything about that, but it shows copyright for that one book to be 1932 and L died in the early part of the year of 1930, so I would assume it.
Yep, I was mildly perturbed, not really angry. In fact I went back and changed my original 'flaring red mad' emoticon to something a little more subtle..:lol: Yes, it was inevitable, that someday, I too, would join the club and be annoyed with you! ;) :lol:Quote:
Oh you are angry at me too. Well, get on line. I bet half of lit net is angry at me. :p It goes with being Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know. :D I did read you post #570 and i even replied to it. I didn't exactly reply to that specific part of your post directly, I combined Amalia's and your thoughts together. Didn't i say it was an interesting idea you two have come up with? Let me double highlight what you just said that I think is very important:Quote:
The sun also, was prominent in this symbol and their connection to the sun and the stars and the cosmos.
Well, thanks for at least reading my post #570, and your comments were good ones. I still think you might have missed a little there, like the symbol of the serpent used as a deity or divinity, and it was usually 'golden' like the sun or the stars, which are 'burning' gases as the sun is. Serpent symbolism was actually used in "Plumed Serpent", most prominently, and I had also, thought how so many ancient civilizations used this as a symbol of power and royalty - such as with King Tut - his famous gold mask has a gold serpent at the top - a cobra, I believe.
Yes, and somehow this all fits in, within Lawrence's mind and ideas - the serpent or snake. I know it is all quite complex. The PS book was confusing in this respect, but now after reading some of these snake references in "Sun" I feel I see more clearly what Lawrence was aiming at in the other book and this story. I think the serpent does represent a man in all his power and sexuality, which Lawrence beleive ultimately came from the cosmos and the sun. Therefore the male was the 'sun-god' or 'god-head'. In this story is not the sun male for Juliet? The sun is the supreme male is virility and power and sensuality to Juliet.Quote:
The power of the sun is interwoven with the overall power of the cosmos, which is a sort of godhead for life.
Yes, if one reads the entire poem (should I post it?) you can see exactly what Lawrence is getting at. Great poem, is it not? I will look it up online, but in my book seems to be a fuller length version of the poem. Years ago a friend sent me this poem and I believe that was a much shorter version. I hope I can find the entire verison online. Otherwise it is back to the old scanner or typing it in...ugh. I will also look up the date 'Snake' was published. Found the poem and I will post later - after you answer this post, or someone else does. It was written in Taormina, 1923. Not sure of date of publication, because this is the date giving on the internet below the poem, so I now assume this is the publication date -1923. Confusing though because he, lawrence states he has written, or is writing it in July 1920 - he is in Taormina and the book states that it is the only July Lawrence ever spend there, due to the excessive heat. He even states in this entry that he has been wearing for days, only pajama pants, because it is so hot. Interesting. I read that Balzac only wore a robe to write and Mark Twain liked to write in his jammies in bed. Gee, I guess I am a really creative person and not a bum! Haha :lol:....I thought I was just abnormal, but guess I have that artist temperment.Quote:
Now that is interesting. Yes, the snake could represent the husband! I think you're right. I will have to re-read the story to be sure. And by the way, the poem "Snake" does compliment this story. I had my doubts when you brought it up, but now that I've read the entire poem, I see the connections.
The power of the sun influences Juliet in many, many ways as you have excellently described.
I would also suggest that although her feelings were "anger", "frustration", "numb", now we see a different woman under the inlfuence of the sun. The "sunrising" described can be seen as a metaphor fro Juliet's rebirth, and her attempts to persuade her son to "play", and "run in the sun", is, again, a proof of how much this male deity has changed her life. She wants her boy to experience the freedom she has experienced.
Oh, look at Wiki's entry on Taormina. it gives a nice description with some photos of the area, which is what I think Lawrence is basing his story on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taormina.
You're such a sweet person Janine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Thank you for doing all that work.Quote:
Virgil, you sure have me doing a lot of homework;) You and Quark advise me to slow up; and I am the one looking up all this stuff and...
now Quark wants me to state 'specific chapters' in S&L's and here I thought he had those bits pretty well highlighted in his book! ;)
Grrr...Eekkk...ok, going now to look up the Etruscan essays - it might also say in my Italian tavel book 'forward'.
Ok, looking them up seems to reveal that he was visiting the tombs, as far back as 1927, then he mentions being half-way through writing the essays sometime in 1929, but from there I don't see an entry as to when he completed "Etruscan Places". I also just looked in the forward to "L.H.Lawrence and Italy", and I can't see anywhere, that it actually states anything about that, but it shows copyright for that one book to be 1932 and L died in the early part of the year of 1930, so I would assume it.
Yes, that is interesting. I'm sure Lawrence was aware of it.Quote:
Well, thanks for at least reading my post #570, and your comments were good ones. I still think you might have missed a little there, like the symbol of the serpent used as a deity or divinity, and it was usually 'golden' like the sun or the stars, which are 'burning' gases as the sun is. Serpent symbolism was actually used in "Plumed Serpent", most prominently, and I had also, thought how so many ancient civilizations used this as a symbol of power and royalty - such as with King Tut - his famous gold mask has a gold serpent at the top - a cobra, I believe.
Yes, I think the sun as diety is male to Juliet's female. And we see how Maurice falls so short of his male glory. And we see in the story that the snake slithers and hides and is somewhat impotent. Don't you think?Quote:
Yes, and somehow this all fits in, within Lawrence's mind and ideas - the serpent or snake. I know it is all quite complex. The PS book was confusing in this respect, but now after reading some of these snake references in "Sun" I feel I see more clearly what Lawrence was aiming at in the other book and this story. I think the serpent does represent a man in all his power and sexuality, which Lawrence beleive ultimately came from the cosmos and the sun. Therefore the male was the 'sun-god' or 'god-head'. In this story is not the sun male for Juliet? The sun is the supreme male is virility and power and sensuality to Juliet.
I was thinking of posting it, but I'll let you. Good thing they wore jammies. Some men go to bed in their underwear, or less. :lol:Quote:
Yes, if one reads the entire poem (should I post it?) you can see exactly what Lawrence is getting at. Great poem, is it not? I will look it up online, but in my book seems to be a fuller length version of the poem. Years ago a friend sent me this poem and I believe that was a much shorter version. I hope I can find the entire verison online. Otherwise it is back to the old scanner or typing it in...ugh. I will also look up the date 'Snake' was published. Found the poem and I will post later - after you answer this post, or someone else does. It was written in Taormina, 1923. Not sure of date of publication, because this is the date giving on the internet below the poem, so I now assume this is the publication date -1923. Confusing though because he, lawrence states he has written, or is writing it in July 1920 - he is in Taormina and the book states that it is the only July Lawrence ever spend there, due to the excessive heat. He even states in this entry that he has been wearing for days, only pajama pants, because it is so hot. Interesting. I read that Balzac only wore a robe to write and Mark Twain liked to write in his jammies in bed. Gee, I guess I am a really creative person and not a bum! Haha :lol:....I thought I was just abnormal, but guess I have that artist temperment.
I googled images of Taormina and I have to post some. It will give a feel for the setting in "Sun."
http://atangledweb.typepad.com/photo...d/taormina.jpg
http://www.etnamare-holiday.ch/image...anfiteatro.jpg
http://www.hotelpensionesvizzera.com...mina_hotel.jpg
http://www.destination360.com/europe...s/taormina.jpg
http://p.vtourist.com/908774-View_to...a-Taormina.jpg
I think you can see some of the cypress trees that are mentioned in the story.
Virgil, those photos are wonderful! THANKS for finding them and posting! Wow, I am booking my airfare, as we speak. I think I need a little sun! :yawnb:
I'll answer you last post after I have my dinner.
For now here is the poem:
Quote:
Snake
A snake came to my water-trough
On a hot, hot day, and I in pyjamas for the heat,
To drink there.
In the deep, strange-scented shade of the great dark carob-tree
I came down the steps with my pitcher
And must wait, must stand and wait, for there he was at the trough before
me.
He reached down from a fissure in the earth-wall in the gloom
And trailed his yellow-brown slackness soft-bellied down, over the edge of
the stone trough
And rested his throat upon the stone bottom,
i o And where the water had dripped from the tap, in a small clearness,
He sipped with his straight mouth,
Softly drank through his straight gums, into his slack long body,
Silently.
Someone was before me at my water-trough,
And I, like a second comer, waiting.
He lifted his head from his drinking, as cattle do,
And looked at me vaguely, as drinking cattle do,
And flickered his two-forked tongue from his lips, and mused a moment,
And stooped and drank a little more,
Being earth-brown, earth-golden from the burning bowels of the earth
On the day of Sicilian July, with Etna smoking.
The voice of my education said to me
He must be killed,
For in Sicily the black, black snakes are innocent, the gold are venomous.
And voices in me said, If you were a man
You would take a stick and break him now, and finish him off.
But must I confess how I liked him,
How glad I was he had come like a guest in quiet, to drink at my water-trough
And depart peaceful, pacified, and thankless,
Into the burning bowels of this earth?
Was it cowardice, that I dared not kill him? Was it perversity, that I longed to talk to him? Was it humility, to feel so honoured?
I felt so honoured.
And yet those voices:
If you were not afraid, you would kill him!
And truly I was afraid, I was most afraid, But even so, honoured still more
That he should seek my hospitality
From out the dark door of the secret earth.
He drank enough
And lifted his head, dreamily, as one who has drunken,
And flickered his tongue like a forked night on the air, so black,
Seeming to lick his lips,
And looked around like a god, unseeing, into the air,
And slowly turned his head,
And slowly, very slowly, as if thrice adream,
Proceeded to draw his slow length curving round
And climb again the broken bank of my wall-face.
And as he put his head into that dreadful hole,
And as he slowly drew up, snake-easing his shoulders, and entered farther,
A sort of horror, a sort of protest against his withdrawing into that horrid black hole,
Deliberately going into the blackness, and slowly drawing himself after,
Overcame me now his back was turned.
I looked round, I put down my pitcher,
I picked up a clumsy log
And threw it at the water-trough with a clatter.
I think it did not hit him,
But suddenly that part of him that was left behind convulsed in undignified haste.
Writhed like lightning, and was gone
Into the black hole, the earth-lipped fissure in the wall-front,
At which, in the intense still noon, I stared with fascination.
And immediately I regretted it.
I thought how paltry, how vulgar, what a mean act!
I despised myself and the voices of my accursed human education.
And I thought of the albatross
And I wished he would come back, my snake.
For he seemed to me again like a king,
Like a king in exile, uncrowned in the underworld,
Now due to be crowned again.
And so, I missed my chance with one of the lords
Of life.
And I have something to expiate:
A pettiness.
Taormina, 1923
Oh, good Wiki is back again! I have to go now and check that link. I saw your photos of the place you posted. Those are very pretty. No wonder L liked going there and living there - it looks wonderful.:yawnb:Nice and sunny; yes, that must be the sea he speaks of, and how blue and gorgeous it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
So they tell me :) ..But just don't ask my mother.:lol:Quote:
You're such a sweet person Janine.
You are graciously welcome, Mr.Virgil!Quote:
Thank you for doing all that work.
So am I, he told me so himself.:nod: *halucinating again*Quote:
Yes, that is interesting. I'm sure Lawrence was aware of it.
Ah, I had not thought of the snake being impotent; only a man would think of that one. Well, maybe not impotent, but you know snakes are actually quite shy. Think on that awhile.;)Quote:
Yes, I think the sun as diety is male to Juliet's female. And we see how Maurice falls so short of his male glory. And we see in the story that the snake slithers and hides and is somewhat impotent. Don't you think?
;) I know all about that , Virgil.....:lol:Quote:
I was thinking of posting it, but I'll let you. Good thing they wore jammies. Some men go to bed in their underwear, or less. :lol:
Hey Janine, guess who? :D
amalia, I don't know how you snuck in there, without me noticing you, but sorry about that. I just now saw your post. Maybe we were posting same time. Oh, now I see, you were right before Virgil posted about Wikipedia.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
Yes, I think you are correct - the power of the sun does influence her is various ways. She certainly seems like an entirely different woman - one who now is fully-awakened and aware of her own self and her own natural beauty.
oops - sorry you were just saying the same thing. It is so true - how transformed and different Juliet appears, not only in attitude, but in appearance and expression. Yes, she seems to have shed those feelings you have listed and forgotten she ever was harboring such thoughts or attitudes. It is interesting to see the effect it is having on her child as well, and how she now feels the power of the male deity of the sun extended to the boy. He, too, becomes revived and a totally different 'newborn' child, without his whininess, his grasping for Juliet, with all his neediness and clinging. One passage said that he was now able to play quiely by himself. The child, also, is quite transformed and now becomes beautiful.Quote:
I would also suggest that although her feelings were "anger", "frustration", "numb", now we see a different woman under the inlfuence of the sun. The "sunrising" described can be seen as a metaphor fro Juliet's rebirth, and her attempts to persuade her son to "play", and "run in the sun", is, again, a proof of how much this male deity has changed her life. She wants her boy to experience the freedom she has experienced.
;) Now, if the husband would be tranformed as well, by the restorative properties of the sun and light, it might be a happy family scene.:yawnb:
Hey, Is this Mr. Pharmacist? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Awod
I have to admit you did give me a jolt with that question!
PS: and by any chance are you a 'Steven Brust' fan?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Heh would be nice.
I'm not a pharmacist, I'm a Certified Pharmacy technician. I would enjoy the pay increase though :P
Yep, I love Brust theres only a few of his novels I haven't read.
Awod, Like I said you did give me a shock. How funny - had to think fast on that one and since you only had 3 now 4 postings it struck me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awod
Well, you have to work your way up to that very important position. Yes, more money would be nice. I won't give away any more of your vital information. I see your profile page is really revealing.:lol: Take a look at mine. I tell all! - a real blabber-mouth!
Hey, honestly so glad you found the site and signed up. Cool place, huh? :D There is lots to offer here. You must go onto the thread 'what you are reading' - something like that it is called, or start a thread about your author. Now I can remember his name. Sure others will find you who like his work...well, eventually.
Maybe you will try reading one of our Lawrence short stories and join in our discussions. This last one we did was rather interesting, to say the least, plus we need more guys in this thread. haha:lol:
We really do have fun in here, even though we can be quite serious minded at times, actually talking about literature. You would never know that by this last page in this thread. Movie thread is fun, too! I am in there often.
Well, go explore the site and have fun!:thumbs_up
Hey, just edited this post - looked up Brust website - it is hysterical! I laughed and laughed...really funny stuff. You need one of his book images for your avatar picture.
I think this passage suggests what Amalia states in her last post:
Quote:
Now a change took place. She was no longer vitally interested in the child,
she took the strain of her anxiety and her will from off him. And he thrived
all the more for it.
She was thinking inside herself, of the sun in his splendour, and her mating
with him. Her life was now a whole ritual. She lay always awake, before dawn,
watching for the grey to colour to pale gold, to know if cloud lay on the
sea's edge. Her joy was when he rose all molten in his nakedness, and threw
off blue-white fire, into the tender heaven.
But sometimes he came ruddy, like a big, shy creature. And sometimes slow and
crimson red, with a look of anger, slowly pushing and shouldering. Sometimes
again she could not see him, only the level cloud threw down gold and scarlet
from above, as he moved behind the wall.
She was fortunate.Weeks went by, and though the dawn was sometimes clouded,
and afternoon was sometimes grey, never a day passed sunless, and most days,
winter though it was, streamed radiant. Then thin little wild crocuses came up
mauve and striped, the wild narcissi hung in their winter stars.
Every day she went down to the cypress tree, among the cactus grove on the
knoll with yellowish cliffs at the foot. She was wiser and subtler now,
wearing only a dove-grey wrapper and sandals. so that in an instant, in any
hidden niche, she was naked to the sun. And the moment she was covered again
she was grey and invisible.
She knew the sun in heaven, blue-molten with his white fire edges, throwing
off fire. And though he shone on all the world, when she lay unclothed he
focussed on her. It was one of the wonders of the sun, he could shine on a
million people and still be the radiant, splendid, unique sun, focussed on her
alone.
With her knowledge of the sun, and her conviction that the sun knew
her, in the cosmic carnal sense of the word, came over her a feeling of
detachment from people, and a certain contempt for human beings altogether.
They were so un-elemental, so unsunned. they were so like graveyard worms.
The paragraphs that Virgil posted are extremely rich in symbolisms, I think.
The cypress can be another sexual metaphor, suggested by Lawrence. The emphasis on the CHANGE shows the emotional transformation of Juliet. Also, “matting with the sun” is a very telling expression, don’t you think?
I believe that the phrase “never a day passed sunless” describes Juliet’s present life, indicating happiness, I would say. I have noticed the repetition of the starry image, and I’d consider important the fact that Lawrence chooses the adjectives “wiser’, and “subtler”, to characterize Juliet, unfolding this “change” in her personality, under the influence of the sun. Notice that she feels happier when she is naked, while her feelings change into “grey” when she is “covered again”. I was captivated by Lawrence’s description of Juliet’s current attitude towards the others. She feels “detached”, and regards them as small creature, I would say.
I think that the metaphor of the “graveyard worms” is very vivid. I linked this one with her previous protest to her mother, in the 1st part of the story, where Juliet tells her “leave off wanting to de me good”. I believe this is another hint of Juliet’s desire to take her life into her hands, to escape the patronization of her environment.
famalia, I agree with you - these are really great to quote and 'rich in symbolism' as you pointed out. Thanks, V, for posting this section.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
That is an interesting thought about the trees, but I am not quite sure of it, still something to consider. I think I will have to re-read the part where the trees are so vividly described. That did stand out to me at first but then I went quickly onto the next part and forgot about the trees and what significance they play. Yes, the 'mating with the sun' is a key part of the story, I think, maybe the main theme(?) The sun does not just shine on Juliet on the surface of her skin or being, but penetrates her to the core and and infiltrates her whole being, transforming her - a transfiguration.Quote:
The cypress can be another sexual metaphor, suggested by Lawrence. The emphasis on the CHANGE shows the emotional transformation of Juliet. Also, “matting with the sun” is a very telling expression, don’t you think?
Good observation and something to think about further.Quote:
I believe that the phrase “never a day passed sunless” describes Juliet’s present life, indicating happiness, I would say.
Those words are interesting to consider. Why does he use these particular words, do you think?Quote:
I have noticed the repetition of the starry image, and I’d consider important the fact that Lawrence chooses the adjectives “wiser’, and “subtler”, to characterize Juliet, unfolding this “change” in her personality, under the influence of the sun.
I think that 'naked' she feels freedom and clothed she feels 'restrained' and sliding back to her old world which is 'sunless' and unhappy. That is interesting that you picked out the word 'grey' when she is covered. Was her garment, her wrap - 'grey'? I will have to review. If so shadowlike I would imagine. She now would become like a 'shadow' of the sunlight she had basked in or she is going back into the 'shadows of the past'.Quote:
Notice that she feels happier when she is naked, while her feelings change into “grey” when she is “covered again”. I was captivated by Lawrence’s description of Juliet’s current attitude towards the others. She feels “detached”, and regards them as small creature, I would say.
Yes, the people are distant from her now; they do not live in the glory and warmth of the sun. They do seem like small creatures or animals in her new sight. Good thought.
That is, isn't it? Really a strong image and says so much. 'Graveyard worms' can conjure up all kinds of images of mortality, also. The phrase is used so often in "Hamlet". He often mentions worms in this way because the play looks at mortality and death continually.Quote:
I think that the metaphor of the “graveyard worms” is very vivid. I linked this one with her previous protest to her mother, in the 1st part of the story, where Juliet tells her “leave off wanting to de me good”. I believe this is another hint of Juliet’s desire to take her life into her hands, to escape the patronization of her environment.
Yes, I had forgotten her mother's comment to her. That is good to reflect on, now that we read the entire story. It takes on newer meaning since J's transformation has taken place. She not only pulls away from her environment but her mother and her husband's authority, or 'patronization', as you stated so appropriately. Most of the people Juliet has been associated with prior to coming to Italy have in a sense been dead or half-dead beings. Now Juliet has discoverd 'life' anew from the sun. She has been reborn.
Good post amalia! :thumbs_up
This was a good observation, and yes I can see the truth in it. As I did find it intresting, when her mother was trying to get her to go naked into the sun on the orders of the doctor she refused at first, but it was not untill she was doing it of her own conviction and not becasue someone else mandated it to her, that she embraced the idea, and found freedom within it.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
The other thing I found intresting was the line.
This made me think of the old days, in which women whom were considered disobedent, or rebellious or otherwise troublsume would be "sent out" or "put out" uusally to be shut away within a convent.Quote:
And she thought to herself: For him it is All Ashore! For me it is Out To Sea!
And the idea that men were the ones that were suppose to be adventurous and go out into the world to explore new lands.
I agree with everything you say Amamlia except I'm not so sure the cypress trees are intended as phallic. Seems like Lawrence is only describing the setting, but I guess one can extend description a bit. I see the cypress trees if anything more as a worshiper of the sun, another of the flower/vegetaton imagery that Lawrence loves.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
I think we can see from the story how Lawrence regards flowers/vegetation/trees as the ideal form of life. They blossom and grow from the sunshine. I always get the feeling that for Lawrence heaven will be a state where we are mindless blossoms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Virgil, only can answer the last part, since I forgot to read about the cypress trees again, but I think it is simply as you stated, unless I see something else in my additional reading.
That last statement of yours is a truly beautiful thought. I hope it is so, also. Ever see a film called 'What Dreams May Come'? What you just said somehow reminded me of that film, sort of 'perfect heavely realm' on earth. I also, just saw a film called 'The Fountain' - interesting film, with ideas that I kept thinking, Lawrence would have liked and supported. In fact, I wondered if the two young screen writers had ever read Lawrence's later books, such as "The Plumed Serpent". This film even had Central American myths/culture/Mayan civilization/ customs, ritual and a 'tree of life', a 'sword of fire', connection to the cosmos and the stars and a nebula, that would burn itself out to become transformed or transfigured, into forming other new stars, rebirth....and a question of mortaliy/immortality - the idea of connecting all things on earth/cosmos. Flowers and plants played prominently into the web of this idea and this film. Interesting.
HELLO! Where is everybody this weekend??? haha - I am just kidding because I, too, am trying to take a bit of a break! Probably will be back Monday to comment. Enjoy your weekend everyone! J
:lol: Enjoy your break Janine. I'll try to push the conversation along later tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine