The Christian Hell

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01-05-2009, 03:17 PM
skasian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rozzy

Whether someone else believes in your miracle has no bearing on the reality if it is real or not, the facts would still be truth whether or not a single person believes them. Facts are funny things, they are what they are whether we agree with them or not.
I have both experienced miracles and seen them for others, so in my mind it is settled based on experience.
Hell is actually an easy concept to understand, it is judgement and justice at a level much higher than the realm we are answerable to now. This life we now live is finite but it is regulated by the infinite so that whatever we choose to believe here now will not change the course set by the infinite. God is infinite, I am finite, so I realise He sets the rules and I abide by them.
Simple beyond belief really:cool:

Hey I am so happy someone appreciates God's almighty power:)
And thank you for your views in hell, I completely concur with you.
01-05-2009, 03:36 PM
The Atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by skasian

I dont mind if you do think it is fake, but when you feel and see it for yourself, you can never describe it as fake.

I've seen exactly what you've seen, up close and personal, several times.

Seen nothing to impress me so far. A stage-hypnotist show, nothing more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skasian

When something else controlling me and my speech, and having life of its own, I cant see it as fake.

As I have said many times, the human brain is a fascinating thing and it's easy to be tricked into thinking you're experiencing external stimuli when you are not. I'm sure it's all quite real, but not quite the same reality that you see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skasian

Gold dusts forming from my palm was not psychology as it is impossible for our body substances to make gold.

No irony in your god making gold dust as a miracle for you while he lets children die in agony....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rozzy

Whether someone else believes in your miracle has no bearing on the reality if it is real or not, the facts would still be truth whether or not a single person believes them. Facts are funny things, they are what they are whether we agree with them or not.

Quite right.

It's just quite funny that some people will claim things as factual when they are clearly not.
01-05-2009, 04:07 PM
Rozzy

Doubled
01-05-2009, 04:09 PM
Rozzy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rozzy

Quite right.

It's just quite funny that some people will claim things as factual when they are clearly not.

It is quite funny some will discredit the claims of others without any basis at all other than they do not believe it. Which you are free to do because it does not undo the healing that has already taken place. If I believe and am healed what do I care if someone else does not believe it, I am still healed and not injured by your unbelief.

Hey I am so happy someone appreciates God's almighty power
And thank you for your views in hell, I completely concur with you.

tzohorayeem toveem

God is good,
Rozzy
01-05-2009, 04:36 PM
bazarov

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacobF

I don't mean to personally attack you for your beliefs, but the whole notion of accepting Jesus as being the only way to the afterlife doesn't make any sense to me. If I'm a child rapist and I accept Jesus in my final hours, I can go to heaven. But if I'm a generous, selfless and moral human being who doesn't accept Jesus I suffer for eternity because of it.

No. Everyone first goes to ''court'' - no matter is it Hitler, Stalin, Mother Theresa or Karol Wojtyla. Everyone will be judged by his acts and won't be dealed equally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blazeofglory

Hitler regarded himself as a diehard Christian and there are still too many who think they are Christians. Once we do not divide ourselves between Christians and Jews, the same children we can come closer to truth.

Wrong. Hitler used religion to fool fools and he made it. Humans will generally stand stronger behind something what is blessed and he used it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Stalin then. He died of nice, natural causes and was another childhood theist. Mao, Pol Pot, any despot, is able to beg forgiveness before death and will be received in your heaven.

But in what part of heaven?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limajean

It's like believing that someone who has murdered, raped, and done terrible things deserves a place in heaven if they "just believe" whereas a good person, someone who has yeah, made mistakes - probably made some huge ones, but all in all has been a decent HUMAN being will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus.

Where did you read that? Good people won't go to hell. Why would lousy Christian be better then good Muslim or Jew?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limajean

That is not only so morally backwards but, simply stupid. And i highly doubt a God that could create such beauty and mystery in our world, could be so stupid and cruel.

He gave us free will; we made the rest. And we made it pretty bad, I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by limajean

I dont understand how someone can proclaim that they respect and understand other peoples beliefs ...yet, tell them they're going to hell because they don't follow Jesus.

Who said that? If some Christian said it to you, he is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by limajean

and yet - we supposedly get punished for exercising that free will? that's something else that just DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
Why doesn't it make sense? because in my opinion, the evidence is too overwhelming, to ever believe in such a place as Hell.

Why would a God punish me for using the tools he supposedly gave me?

Anyway i'm done with all of this, it's a waste of energy and time. I really don't want to hear about the millions of ways im going to Hell for not believing in a fairytale.

You're not punished for using it; you will be punished for using it in wrong purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Tiamat

hi im new to the forums, but i was just wondering if you were to kill yourself to save others do you not become a martyr. but from what i know if you kill yourself you automatically go to hell in the christian belief

No, that's not true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Which confirms the contradiction. One part of the bible specifically says some food is unclean, Jesus says it isn't. That's what a contradiction is - the same book saying two opposed things.

First part is quoted from OT, and second from NT. And Christians believe in NT because Jesus corrected OT in more then few occasions. Jews live by OT, not Christians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

How do you know tumours were cured? Could you see the tumour then see it gone?

You may think you've seen those things happen, but it's factual that not one single instance of miraculous divine cure has been recorded in the entirety of medical history.

Doctors saw it, and then they just disappeared. I am not a doctor so I can't say how did it happen, but it did happen. Problem is probably that doctors aren't sure what happened, so what can they say? And why would necessary science have an answer for everything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

This is quite funny - denying it because it's in the OT. Do you also deny the myths of creation, the great flood, Moses & Jonah and the thousand other lies in the OT?

If the OT is just a Jewish book, how come the prophecies of Jesus' coming are in it?

Nobody should deny it. Jesus didn't deny it, he just corrected some issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Yes, I do.

It's been shown time and time again that "miracles" in church are fake, while none have been shown to be true.

In the lack of reputable evidence to the contrary, I must presume fakery.

Isn't it just odd how those cured people will stand up and tell their church congregation they're cured, but they never tell their doctors?

Evidence means we know what happened. How can we prove something or explain it if we don't know what happened?

--------------------------------------

Tolstoy said: To be able to say that something unreasonable is unreasonable, you have to be very familiar and know a lot about that unreasonable issue.
Looks like a lot of doesn't know too much. Sorry.
01-05-2009, 05:14 PM
Delta40

Hmmmm. so much to mull over here. Are God's values the same as His children's the ones with free will? The reason I ask is because we spend a lifetime trying to understand God based on a book.
01-06-2009, 12:45 AM
NikolaiI

The thing to keep in mind, importantly, is what does being Christian mean? It means to accept Christ as one's spiritual master, more, as one's savior. Now nothing more than this needs to be said and it doesn't help to say it more. Then the only thing that matters is to live it in your life, that is, go to Christ as often as you are able. This is just my view of it. And what did Christ teach? The most important thing, he said, was to love God. The second most important thing is to love your neighbour. Now Jesus was a Jew, and so when he calls God "My Father" he is indeed talking about the God of the day, the Jewish God. Studying Judaism or Kabbalah would improve one's understanding of Christianity, I would believe.

Now back to Jesus' commandment - to love God? What on Earth does this mean? Isn't that unaccessible? Well, for me, actually, God is more accessible than Christ. God who is not just on earth but everywhere in the universe, God who does not just contian the dreams of humanity, but contains dreams and loves to an infinite extent and beauty. THAT is the God I worship. Nowadays for many people the reaction against God is the same as if someone said they were God. Now THAT is something only a rascal will do. It's the cheating propensity at work. Just as the selling of mantras or secrets about God for money is also the cheating propensity.

All of these things are actually being arranged and maintained by Maya. Maya is God's illusory potency. It keeps us unawares of God, God's name, form, qualities; heck, it even keeps us unaware of anything spiriutal at all - the soul, the spiritual realm, and all the knowledge and bliss which comes from the soul. We are not even sure if this world is a friendly or a hostile place. Well it is a quickly changing one; but truths such as Light, God, Truth are eternal and do not change from one time to another. It is said that Maya is not a bad thing, actually it is a good thing, keeping would-be devotees away from God unless they are pure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

First off, I'd never give you a hard time; while we disagree on many things, your views are honest & heartfelt, and I have no trouble with people holding views which are different or opposite from mine.

I hope you get to play with some dolphins some day, because I'd guarantee that it would confirm for you that they are cognitively smart.

I just wish we could figure out how to communicate with them. And you're right about mammals - most of them are indeed social animals.

Just on the border of long enough

And no, your posts don't come over as self-centred in any way. Like most people with zen-like persuasions, I find your attitude commendable and I've said on many occasions that the world would be a much better place if everyone were Buddhist. I believe that's true, because I admire the non-violent, conciliatory inclusiveness of Buddhism.

I just could never get by without steak.

I am glad to hear you say this. I am of the opinion that in this situation, since you and I are both operating respectfully and in a friendly manner, the best success which could be asked for is achieved. As another said if we all agreed it would be boring. My ideas are zen-like in certain aspects, but I also moved toward a sort of blending of Pure Land Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism as well as different aspects about it as a whole. But as you know my beliefs are not only about Buddha. I think that Buddha, or God, whatever you call it, is the nature of the universe, which is complete bliss, knowledge, and also that it is eternal. While Buddha is an acceptable name, actually I believe that Visnu is the supreme personality of Godhead. Visnu is laying in the causal ocean, etc., etc., and the entire cosmic manifestation is not created just once but it is created and destroyed unlimitedly. All of this occurs in the breathing of Visnu. I wouldn't say all of this to just anyone, but I will say it to you.

As for Christ, remember that God said in the Bible, "Be still, and know that I am God."

This indicates that God is beyond stillness. God is beyond eternity. The only way we can know God is to come to know what eternity is. We must be still first. And also Christ is accepted as God. So Christ is beyond stillness, Christ is the peace beyond all peace. Just as in Buddhism, where the greatest enlightenment is considered to be gone, completely gone beyond all else.

I am speaking to you yes I am speaking to you of things such as the nature of Christ, and buddha-nature. The only reason you never accepted it before was because it did not make sense to you. But this is the nature of the divine, it is inconceivable. It can only make sense to you when your own existence completely makes sense to you. It only makes sense to you when you realize your nature, your true nature, is entirely peaceful! In fact, it is peaceful, blissful, it is aware, and it is eternal. This is a truth of life, and the only reason we shy away from it is because it has been misused more than any. In fact, it is only a corrupting of this truth that anything is in existence at all except for that truth. So it is inconceivable; Buddhists fall back on the idea that their religion requires no faith. I have even had a great discussion about this with Geche Dorje, an assistant to the Dalai Lama. He said, "if there is anything inconceivable, that is when I give up my robes," saying he would quit the path of the monk. But then one doesnt need to look any further than The Great Flower Ornament Sutra: "In every atom of the universe, there are oceans of world systems." What is it? It is inconceivable.

I have seen people say that Buddhists don't have a necessary idea of creation, whether it is evolution or something else; or some even say that Buddhists basically believe in evolution. They don't care about what happened in the past, only about the now. Well the thing is, some people are very interested in what is the source of all else. Yes, it may be remoted, mysterious, but it is attractive non-theless. What is it, can we know anything about it, and what is our source to it?

In my view the source of all material and spiritually worlds is the all-attractive Lord Hari. As I've explained, being the source of all, all the forms are within the source- Hari. In this case, or in my limited understanding, all are created and destroyed within the breath of the Lord. As Kabir said, God is the breath behind breath. As we breathe in air, similarly, Lord Visnu, the Supreme Lord, breathes in and out the entire cosmic manifestation, thus cyclicly annihlating and recreating it.

[edit: I just rememberd actually, I have a book of Thomas Clearly's translations and one of the books is "Entry into the Inconceivable"! So if you ever find Geche Dorje, tell him about this book and he will most likely be very pleased.]
01-06-2009, 01:39 AM
The Atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by bazarov

But in what part of heaven?

Are there different bits?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bazarov

Doctors saw it, and then they just disappeared. I am not a doctor so I can't say how did it happen, but it did happen. Problem is probably that doctors aren't sure what happened, so what can they say? And why would necessary science have an answer for everything?

Many cases have been investigated and lots of frauds have been found. On the other hand, no miracles have been noted, so I just go with the evidence. I find it amusing that claims of miraculous cure are made weekly by many fundie churches, but no evidence is ever forthcoming.

I have this weird idea that if any of it were actually real, we'd hear about it ver quickly, so I ignore them all until some better standards of evidence are brought through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bazarov

Evidence means we know what happened. How can we prove something or explain it if we don't know what happened?

See above - no explanation is needed, just amedical doctor who will say, "Yesterdaym this person had a squamous cell carcinoma of the larynx. Today he does not.

Pretty simple stuff, if these cures are actually happening.
01-06-2009, 01:46 AM
NikolaiI

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I have this weird idea that if any of it were actually real, we'd hear about it ver quickly, so I ignore them all until some better standards of evidence are brought through.

See above - no explanation is needed, just amedical doctor who will say, "Yesterdaym this person had a squamous cell carcinoma of the larynx. Today he does not.

Pretty simple stuff, if these cures are actually happening.

Well, just consider whether you really would hear about it. For instance there used to be electric cars, but there's a video about how the government stopped it... of course I don't wish to add conspiracy paranoia to the mix, but the example is possibly valid..

But actually I saw a video of four Taoist masters chanting around someone with a tumor, which was on monitor, and you could see the tumor visibly decrease in size until it actually vanished. Of course this could have been invented and I never got to investigating it more but it struck me as possible.

(And I apologize for without a doubt taking the thread at least some way away from topic...)
01-06-2009, 02:47 AM
The Atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikolaiI

Well, just consider whether you really would hear about it. For instance there used to be electric cars, but there's a video about how the government stopped it... of course I don't wish to add conspiracy paranoia to the mix, but the example is possibly valid..

And almost certainly not, since we know that electric cars are still not able to be built with our present technology.

As to whether we'd hear about genuine miracle cures, I'm confident we would, because claims are occasionally made. The bad news is, they've all been found to be mistaken or false.

I've been involved with several investigations - as an observer; I'm nobody's doctor - and it's fascinating to watch the zealots be shown where they've gone wrong. One case involved a girl whose fillings had miraculously disappeared! Amazingly enough, when the dental records of her fillings were found, it turns out that all her fillings were in her milk teeth, which had all been replaces by shiny adult ones! Problem solved, no miracle.

Like I said, I'm open to evidence being provided of miraculous cures, but anything which starts with "I saw..." isn't going to make the grade.
01-06-2009, 06:12 AM
skasian

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I've seen exactly what you've seen, up close and personal, several times.

Seen nothing to impress me so far. A stage-hypnotist show, nothing more.

As I have said many times, the human brain is a fascinating thing and it's easy to be tricked into thinking you're experiencing external stimuli when you are not. I'm sure it's all quite real, but not quite the same reality that you see.

No irony in your god making gold dust as a miracle for you while he lets children die in agony....

I must say there is no point of me explaining my beliefs and experiences to alter your perspectives about miracles or religion. Atheists like yourself needs personal experience in order to believe even though clear things of the impossible may be happening in front of their eyes. I think that atheists like yourself are skilled at finding an excuse or a supporting statement that helps them understand what they dont want to believe or not believe is false. But who wants to understand and take in things in heart the things that they dont want to believe in. No matter what people say that is obvious and true to them, the skeptic will always wiggle their way out of making sense that the obvious is unreal, untrue, or fake. Overall I think this is the ultimate difference between the religious and atheists.
01-06-2009, 06:19 AM
bazarov

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Are there different bits?

You've mentioned Dante before; so you surely know there are three parts of Heaven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Many cases have been investigated and lots of frauds have been found. On the other hand, no miracles have been noted, so I just go with the evidence. I find it amusing that claims of miraculous cure are made weekly by many fundie churches, but no evidence is ever forthcoming.

So if science can't explain it it just didn't happen or it is fraud? No other possibilities?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

See above - no explanation is needed, just amedical doctor who will say, "Yesterdaym this person had a squamous cell carcinoma of the larynx. Today he does not.

We know each other for long time :D I also think that sometimes nature does it, maybe some men is just stronger then cancer or something (it's not all on God, I guess); but there were some really unexplainable cures which happened in the moment when some priest or group of people prayed for them, like NikolaiI mentioned; and there are numerous cases like that. How to explain them? You can't blame people for blaming God; who else could they blame?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And almost certainly not, since we know that electric cars are still not able to be built with our present technology.

What?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car
01-06-2009, 06:23 AM
skasian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta40

Hmmmm. so much to mull over here. Are God's values the same as His children's the ones with free will? The reason I ask is because we spend a lifetime trying to understand God based on a book.

I think you have the wrong idea. God is not based on a book, as God is not based on His Words. God is God and His Words are there for our spiritual food. We try to follow and be like Jesus which is what we spend a lifetime achieving. His Words therefore the Bible are like guidelines that will help us to achieve our goals, not the other way around.
01-06-2009, 06:49 AM
Delta40

You may be right. Let me put this another way. Are God's values the same as His children's, the ones with free will? The reason I ask is because we spend a lifetime trying to understand God.
01-06-2009, 07:03 AM
skasian

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikolaiI

The thing to keep in mind, importantly, is what does being Christian mean? It means to accept Christ as one's spiritual master, more, as one's savior. Now nothing more than this needs to be said and it doesn't help to say it more. Then the only thing that matters is to live it in your life, that is, go to Christ as often as you are able. This is just my view of it. And what did Christ teach? The most important thing, he said, was to love God. The second most important thing is to love your neighbour. Now Jesus was a Jew, and so when he calls God "My Father" he is indeed talking about the God of the day, the Jewish God. Studying Judaism or Kabbalah would improve one's understanding of Christianity, I would believe.

Now back to Jesus' commandment - to love God? What on Earth does this mean? Isn't that unaccessible? Well, for me, actually, God is more accessible than Christ. God who is not just on earth but everywhere in the universe, God who does not just contian the dreams of humanity, but contains dreams and loves to an infinite extent and beauty. THAT is the God I worship. Nowadays for many people the reaction against God is the same as if someone said they were God. Now THAT is something only a rascal will do. It's the cheating propensity at work. Just as the selling of mantras or secrets about God for money is also the cheating propensity.

All of these things are actually being arranged and maintained by Maya. Maya is God's illusory potency. It keeps us unawares of God, God's name, form, qualities; heck, it even keeps us unaware of anything spiriutal at all - the soul, the spiritual realm, and all the knowledge and bliss which comes from the soul. We are not even sure if this world is a friendly or a hostile place. Well it is a quickly changing one; but truths such as Light, God, Truth are eternal and do not change from one time to another. It is said that Maya is not a bad thing, actually it is a good thing, keeping would-be devotees away from God unless they are pure.

I am glad to hear you say this. I am of the opinion that in this situation, since you and I are both operating respectfully and in a friendly manner, the best success which could be asked for is achieved. As another said if we all agreed it would be boring. My ideas are zen-like in certain aspects, but I also moved toward a sort of blending of Pure Land Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism as well as different aspects about it as a whole. But as you know my beliefs are not only about Buddha. I think that Buddha, or God, whatever you call it, is the nature of the universe, which is complete bliss, knowledge, and also that it is eternal. While Buddha is an acceptable name, actually I believe that Visnu is the supreme personality of Godhead. Visnu is laying in the causal ocean, etc., etc., and the entire cosmic manifestation is not created just once but it is created and destroyed unlimitedly. All of this occurs in the breathing of Visnu. I wouldn't say all of this to just anyone, but I will say it to you.

As for Christ, remember that God said in the Bible, "Be still, and know that I am God."

This indicates that God is beyond stillness. God is beyond eternity. The only way we can know God is to come to know what eternity is. We must be still first. And also Christ is accepted as God. So Christ is beyond stillness, Christ is the peace beyond all peace. Just as in Buddhism, where the greatest enlightenment is considered to be gone, completely gone beyond all else.

I am speaking to you yes I am speaking to you of things such as the nature of Christ, and buddha-nature. The only reason you never accepted it before was because it did not make sense to you. But this is the nature of the divine, it is inconceivable. It can only make sense to you when your own existence completely makes sense to you. It only makes sense to you when you realize your nature, your true nature, is entirely peaceful! In fact, it is peaceful, blissful, it is aware, and it is eternal. This is a truth of life, and the only reason we shy away from it is because it has been misused more than any. In fact, it is only a corrupting of this truth that anything is in existence at all except for that truth. So it is inconceivable; Buddhists fall back on the idea that their religion requires no faith. I have even had a great discussion about this with Geche Dorje, an assistant to the Dalai Lama. He said, "if there is anything inconceivable, that is when I give up my robes," saying he would quit the path of the monk. But then one doesnt need to look any further than The Great Flower Ornament Sutra: "In every atom of the universe, there are oceans of world systems." What is it? It is inconceivable.

I have seen people say that Buddhists don't have a necessary idea of creation, whether it is evolution or something else; or some even say that Buddhists basically believe in evolution. They don't care about what happened in the past, only about the now. Well the thing is, some people are very interested in what is the source of all else. Yes, it may be remoted, mysterious, but it is attractive non-theless. What is it, can we know anything about it, and what is our source to it?

In my view the source of all material and spiritually worlds is the all-attractive Lord Hari. As I've explained, being the source of all, all the forms are within the source- Hari. In this case, or in my limited understanding, all are created and destroyed within the breath of the Lord. As Kabir said, God is the breath behind breath. As we breathe in air, similarly, Lord Visnu, the Supreme Lord, breathes in and out the entire cosmic manifestation, thus cyclicly annihlating and recreating it.

[edit: I just rememberd actually, I have a book of Thomas Clearly's translations and one of the books is "Entry into the Inconceivable"! So if you ever find Geche Dorje, tell him about this book and he will most likely be very pleased.]

Wow, it is intriguing how you have combined all religion aspects to one, and simplified this and outlining that it is your belief.
As you said that source of all material, spiritually worlds are the all-attractive Lord Hari, would this mean Lord Hari is a different being from Lord Visnu? Or is Lord Hari included in the Supreme Lord, therefore one?

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