Cold Ale - The Blokes' Thread!

What is a bodger?

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Originally Posted by Sancho

Can somebody explain to me why the French need so many freaking vowels to represent just one sound?

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Same reason as the English has so many different "sounds" for the same letters probably:

cough

dough

plough

enough

ought

through

:D

Good point, Scher. Ya gotta like a language with a sense of humor, eh? Or is it Humour? I don’t know, but it gives the language a certain flavor, eh? Or is it flavour? It can also make for some colorful expressions. Doh! Or perhaps it’s all just a shade of gray. I realize this could be cause for confusion.

Also, I'm glad you asked because I’ve got no clue what a bodger is either, but contextually I’m going to guess it’s a handyman. BTW, 6 months ago El Sancho stepped through his ceiling too, and La Senora was pissed (not drunk - angry).

Well, some say bodger, some say practical genius.

The original bodger would make a wood turning laithe in the forest using a bit of string and a bendy sapling. Nowadays it's about mending stuff with what's to hand.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Well, some say bodger, some say practical genius.

The original bodger would make a wood turning laithe in the forest using a bit of string and a bendy sapling. Nowadays it's about mending stuff with what's to hand.

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I think 'bodger' has a perjorative overtone - and a 'bodged job' is improvised, ugly and, whether intended to be or not, temporary.

So a third-class bodger - such as yourself, Mick - might either be not very good even at bodging (which which would mean very very crap at DIY), or might be unable to countenance bodging (which would mean very very good at DIY).

I am proud to say I have never bodged any DIY task in any of the houses I've lived in. Not one. Ever.

I tend to bodge things for a temporary fix, then do it properly when Mrs P threatens to get a professional in. The one thing I cannot do is plastering - the harder I try the worse it gets. I leave that to the Father-in-law.

Nice explanation, guys.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Well, some say bodger, some say practical genius.

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I’m going to put the Sancho clan squarely in the bodger camp. On a road trip, my dad was one of those guys who wouldn’t stop for anything, no way, no how. He was focused. But the kids in the back of the station wagon had other ideas:

“Hey, Dad, we gotta go pee.”
“You can hold it.”
“No we can’t”
“Yes you can. Just think of something else.”
“Hmm, it ain’t working. WE GOTTA GO.”
“Oh, Christ.”

So, after the trip, Pop was out in the garage with a power drill, a couple of feet of surgical tubing, and one of mom’s funnels from the kitchen. Our family wagon became the first one on the block to have a relief tube.

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Originally Posted by Sancho

Good point, Scher. Ya gotta like a language with a sense of humor, eh? Or is it Humour? I don’t know, but it gives the language a certain flavor, eh? Or is it flavour? It can also make for some colorful expressions. Doh! Or perhaps it’s all just a shade of gray. I realize this could be cause for confusion.

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Oh, don't start me on that.

Some teachers had a good chuckle at my expense because when I started to learn English, I thought you could Americanise any "-ou-" word by simply removing the "-u-" from them.

Seriosly.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I am proud to say I have never bodged any DIY task in any of the houses I've lived in. Not one. Ever.

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Could that be because you have never any DIY tasks? Not one. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Could that be because you have never any DIY tasks? Not one. Ever.

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Well, yeah.

My mate says DIY stands for Don't Involve Yourself.

My attitude here is that there are people who make a living doing this stuff well, and it would be misguided and arrogant to think I can do it to a professional standard with no training, no experience and no interest. Of course, some non-professionals can do this stuff - my dad, for one. But, me, I've never completely mastered the use of scissors, and I assume that if you don't put a light bulb in, electricity will leak out all over the floor.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I think 'bodger' has a perjorative overtone - and a 'bodged job' is improvised, ugly and, whether intended to be or not, temporary....

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

I tend to bodge things for a temporary fix,...

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Ahh, you mean botcher, botched as in "That's a botched job".
By the way how is "garage" pronounced?

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Originally Posted by Sancho

...So, after the trip, Pop was out in the garage with a power drill, a couple of feet of surgical tubing, and one of mom’s funnels from the kitchen. Our family wagon became the first one on the block to have a relief tube.

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Haha, I like that.
Since we had the one son, all we required was an empty Gatorade bottle and a marker to label the contents.

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At this juncture, might I introduce other Lit Netters to the word "tosher."

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Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

Ahh, you mean botcher, botched as in "That's a botched job".

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Yeah, in my part of England, we use that variant too.

The variations of accent and dialect in England (never mind the rest of the UK) are so many and so fine, that you can actually map the use of some words geographically, like strains of DNA.

http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/so...cal-variation/

You can also, I've noticed, map these lexical variations to areas of the US, which'll give you some idea which part of the UK the early British settlers of different bits of the US came from.

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Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

By the way how is "garage" pronounced?

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Interesting one - I think that in British English, the convention on this has shifted in my lifetime. When I was a kid, the more acceptable pronunciation - at least in the south of England - was 'guh-RARZH', with a soft g, in imitation of the French. These days that sounds a bit pretentious and practically everyone I know says 'GA-ridge'.


An American pretension that drives me absolutely nuckin futs is the use of the French word 'homage', pronounced 'om-ARZH' or 'om-ARGE'. There's a perfectly good English word for that, and it's been part of the English language for a thousand years, and it's 'homage', pronounced 'HOM - idge'.

^ I love this sort of stuff.

How would you describe your accents? Mine is Yorkshire, but not deep Yorkshire like they speak round Barnsley. Think Ted Hughes with a hint of Coronation Street. I certianly use 'appen for "perhaps" but "praps" is acceptable too.

My accent's variable, sometime within a sentence. It comes from being working-class by birth - Sarf Londen boy; Wansworf, to be precise - and middle-class by education - Emanuel Grammar School, prefects, quadrangles, Latin, the whole bit.

So I can sound like this, or I can sound like this - but generally I sound like both at once.

I was more like Keith Lemon - he comes from Morley near Wakefield. I must have spoken like this though I don't remember the oo sounds being so prtracted when I said them. I think I was a bit gruffer - less perky - if you see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F3LnQckyDo

Now I'm more muted. I work in the Midlands with second language speakers, and the accent - while still there - is more muted... unless I'm with my brothers.

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Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN

At this juncture, might I introduce other Lit Netters to the word "tosher."

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I give up. What’s a “tosher”?

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

…The variations of accent and dialect in England (never mind the rest of the UK) are so many and so fine, that you can actually map the use of some words geographically, like strains of DNA.

http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/so...cal-variation/

You can also, I've noticed, map these lexical variations to areas of the US, which'll give you some idea which part of the UK the early British settlers of different bits of the US came from.

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Somebody told me the pronunciation of the word "four" will closely nail down where in the U.S. the speaker grew up. In NYC it’s foa; up in Boston it morphs into fo-wah; out in the middle west it’s far, which is funny to me because Interstate Farty-Far runs through St. Louis. Down south we just say four.

And that’s cutting it with a broad axe. There are a lot finer distinctions, say between Brooklyn and The Bronx in NYC or between The North End and Southie in Boston.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

An American pretension that drives me absolutely nuckin futs is the use of the French word 'homage', pronounced 'om-ARZH' or 'om-ARGE'. There's a perfectly good English word for that, and it's been part of the English language for a thousand years, and it's 'homage', pronounced 'HOM - idge'.

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Not sure why that’d drive you nuts. Languages live and breathe and evolve. Besides I’m pretty sure if that word entered the English language a thousand years ago, it probably came across the channel with The Normans. Two thirds of modern English comes from Norman French. And I’m willing to bet that even around the year 1066, Parisians thought the Normans were butchering their language - The Normans, or North-Men, having arrived in Normandy a couple of hundred years earlier from Scandinavia.

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Originally Posted by Sancho

Besides I’m pretty sure if that word entered the English language a thousand years ago, it probably came across the channel with The Normans.

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Er, yeah. I know. That's my point. The word has already made the trip once, and the new trip is adding absolutely nothing to the language. Using it as if it had just arrived from French is cringingly pretentious. My suggestion is that any attempt to justify such oo-SARZH will probably be gar-BARZH.

Well, I’m not sure where the pronunciation over here came from. I don’t know if it floated across on the Mayflower and then got changed back by pretentious Francophiles, or if it was always here as a result of all those Frenchys in the huge swath of land in the Mississippi River Valley - which we bought from Napoleon at a bargain-basement price, I might add.

I just don’t know. And I don’t care. It is what it is. But the fact that you assume it’s pretentious probably says more about you than it does about us.

I also don’t care that certain Americans like pronounce “ask”- “axe”. It is what it is. In fact, I think “ask” was pronounced “axe” in Middle English. And I don’t think that going back its original pronunciation is pretentious.

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Originally Posted by Sancho

Well, I’m not sure where the pronunciation over here came from. I don’t know if it floated across on the Mayflower and then got changed back by pretentious Francophiles, or if it was always here as a result of all those Frenchys in the huge swath of land in the Mississippi River Valley - which we bought from Napoleon at a bargain-basement price, I might add.

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If Americans had always pronounced it that way, you'd have a point. But I believe that the Mayflower folk would have pronounced it HOM-idge.

I'd say the new usage is a twentieth century phenomenon, and my guess is that the hipness of French arts - especially cinema - mid-century led to the use of the French pronunciation amongst the chattering classes. 'Of course, the scene with the dove is an om-ARZH to Truffaut'. And it caught on from there.

And if I'm right, then pretension is precisely what it is.

Could be. But it would surprise me that such a small group of Americans could hijack the pronunciation of a perfectly good English word and force down everybody else’s throats. I mean, French films don’t have a lot of car crashes, and Americans generally don’t like to watch movies without car crashes.

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Originally Posted by Sancho

Could be. But it would surprise me that such a small group of Americans could hijack the pronunciation of a perfectly good English word and force down everybody else’s throats. I mean, French films don’t have a lot of car crashes, and Americans generally don’t like to watch movies without car crashes.

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Nobody would have to watch the movies to pick up on the use of the word. All it requires is for people in the media to use it that way. This is how fashion works. These days, people are coached and paid to use certain words in interviews, precisely because viewers do pick up on these things.

All pretentions aside, I notice that place names, particularly in the South West, are starting to be pronounced in fully inflected Spanish rather than in Gringo-ese. I kind of like it. We’ve got an avenue in Atlanta called "Ponce de León" that so far it’s retained its Southern White Cracker pronunciation: Pons-DUH-lee-on. At any rate, this shifting of pronunciation is just the nature of language, I think. Also, I suppose, there’s a certain pretension in human nature. Did you think it was pretentious when Linda McCartney all of a sudden wound up with a British accent? And did it sound true to your ear? I read a Nick Hornby book a year or so ago that had an American character in it. I enjoyed the book, but I thought I could hear Hornby’s British peeking around the corner of the character’s dialog.

I don't think it was pretentious of Linda. Most people tend to pick up the accent of the people they are with.

In the nineties, when my wife was a radio broadcaster doing a drivetime show in Columbia NC, she used to mock Madonna mercilessly for having adopted an English accent and for using so many British idioms - on precisely that principle - that it was a pretension.

Eleven years later, having lived in London for all that time, my wife has developed what to all her friends in the US sounds like a British accent, and she says 'telly' and 'pavement' simply because that's what everyone around her says.

Interesting.

Was that Columbia in North Carolina or South Carolina? My H.S. Spanish Teacher (A woman on whom I had a blazing crush) insisted we pronounce it Co-Loom-bia as opposed to Co-Loam-bia, which she reserved for the country next to Ecuador –Colombia. Both places were named for the same guy, but spelled differently and pronounced slightly differently. Speaking of Columbia (the one in S.C.) there is a street there named Huger Street. It’s a French name and everybody used to pronounce it U-gee street, but that’s more-or-less fallen by the wayside now, and most folks just call it Hugh-ger street.

Ah well, speaking of place names, during WWI there was a vicious battle (several actually) around the town of Ypres in Flanders. As you probably know, the British insisted on calling it The Battle of Wipers. I love that kind of stuff.

I hate to go all mooshy-whooshy here, but Paul and Linda had to have had one of the great loves of all time, I think.

Yeah - sorry. SC.

Back in the 70s the Separatists went on a translation spree with the street names in Montreal, Pine became Avenue des Pins, Mountain became de la Montaigne, Church became De l'eglise and so on.

This causes a lot of confusion between old Montreal Anglos, like my family, and newer arrivals who often look at us with blank stares of incomprehension when we use the older English names for the streets.

There is official Big History and there is a sneaky, unwritten sub-history that still lurks in places like pronounciation and accents.

During WWII, some American GIs stationed in Norfolk walked into a village pub and found themselves surrounded by locals who spoke as they did. It turned out their Ancestors had emigrated from there and settled in the Appalachian Mountains, where the thrust of American History had passed them by, leaving their accents and idioms almost pristine.

I don't know how much of a backwater the Appalachians were, but in a similar story from there, Mike Harding (The Rochdale Cowboy) was making a documentary about American Folk Music. He was filming some good ol' boys playing together on their porch when they started playing a song he'd last heard played years before in a room above a pub in Manchester.

Nearer to home, that Yorkshire Anthem "Ilkley Moor Baht 'at" is adapted from a Cornish song and was brought North by Cornish tin miners in search of work.

I wonder if GG has ever heard "Shoals of Herring" played in Texas.

That Mike Harding documentary tracing the journey of British folk music across America was great.

I recently came across a British folk song that was obviously the ancestor of the quintessential cowboy ballad Streets of Laredo. Can't remember what the hell it was now...*

However, here's a Welshman doing an excellent Euro-rock version of an American folksong derived three hundred years ago from an ancient British root.


*Aha. Found it.

I really enjoy the fluidity of this thread, it flows seamlessly from one topic into another.

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

Back in the 70s the Separatists went on a translation spree with the street names in Montreal, Pine became Avenue des Pins, Mountain became de la Montaigne, Church became De l'eglise and so on.

This causes a lot of confusion between old Montreal Anglos, like my family, and newer arrivals who often look at us with blank stares of incomprehension when we use the older English names for the streets.

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One can't imagine how thems foreign words get butchered down here; "fill it - mig non" for example. I'm planning to head over to the Kimbell Art Museum this weekend to see an Impressionist exhibit along with a touring Poussin. I will not attempt to sound out the Texas version of Poussin.
As for street signs here, the recent trend among activists in the larger metropolitan areas is to force the renaming of long established street names in honor of a particular cultural icon. The solution seems to be the naming of new streets in their honor.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

...I wonder if GG has ever heard "Shoals of Herring" played in Texas.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ov81aogaxg

I have now! followed by a wipe of the eye. Very nice. Thanks

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

That Mike Harding documentary tracing the journey of British folk music across America was great.

I recently came across a British folk song that was obviously the ancestor of the quintessential cowboy ballad Streets of Laredo. Can't remember what the hell it was now...*

However, here's a Welshman doing an excellent Euro-rock version of an American folksong derived three hundred years ago from an ancient British root.


*Aha. Found it.

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Interesting history and variations on the tune. Having finished some brief research, I see the tune is also referred to as "Cowboy's Lament". The performance I am most familiar with is by the great folk singer Burl Ives... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61XaTltS8E4

Speaking of Folk music, I learned that Neil Young and Crazy Horse are about to release Americana, a collection of American folk songs. Among the tunes from the album, is The Gallows Pole

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mai...om_the_Gallows

Here is Leadbelly's take on it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsgGNWlNAfA

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Me and Mrs P went (once) to a folk (or Put yer Finger in yer Ear )night in the village hall. It's not really my kind of stuff but we went with friends. Happily there were indeed many earnest vocalists singing with their finger jammed in their ear (probably trying to block the accompaning hurdy-gurdy.) Then a young girl got up and sang "Matty Groves" and I was transported back to my college days when there was a pirated reel to reel tape of Sandy Denny singing it live going round. Took me right back. I bet if I went to another one I'd hear the same songs, sung in the same way.

When I was at school, we had a series of music teachers who - I'm sure - adpated what they liked and made us sing them. The first music teacher we had - a sadistic fellow who looked like a big Milky bar Kid whose way of compelling you to be quiet was to pull the hair by your ear - (oddly painful) - had us singing modern versions of bible stories. The next - a lady whose name I forget but who had an unusually long stride - (odd the things you remember) - had us singing The Streets of Laredo with the words printed in nice smelling banda copies. Our next music teacher had us singing The Beatles, which I thought was a great improvement in terms of if you had to sing something, sing something good.

Incidentally, my Mum and Dad loved country music, and would often sing El Paso as we drove back from visiting relatives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn3JB51NH_M

It was touchingly romantic in what was often a dfficult relationship.

When I was about 16, my dad would sometimes take me out with him to the local pub - The Whinney Moor. They would have Country and Western bands on, and you would get the old guys whooping along to Don William's songs.

Finally - the pics of the Messerschmidt 109 and 2 Spitfires.

[IMG]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/a...1/SP_A0342.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/a...1/SP_A0341.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/a...1/SP_A0340.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/a...1/SP_A0339.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/a...1/SP_A0338.jpg[/IMG]

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/a...1/SP_A0337.jpg

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Finally - the pics of the Messerschmidt 109 and 2 Spitfires.

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Thanks Paul !!!
Nice photos and we can easily discern that the BF-109 has the real McCoy engine; a Daimler-Benz 12 cylinder vee INVERTED, thus placing the exhaust ports toward the bottom of the front cowling. As I mentioned earlier, the 109 restorations I've seen were fitted with the RR Merlin which you can tell by the ports toward the top of the cowling like the Spitfire or Hurricane.

RE: Sandy Denny
I had discovered her and Fairport Convention a couple years ago. It was sad to read of her life cut short by a freak accident. Here's a wonderful song by FPC, perfect for an early Sunday morning or a gray wintry day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2xODjbfYw8


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^ That was beautiful. A perfect combination of voice, mood and lyrics.


Paul: Are those planes the real thing, or replicas? They look a bit on the small side. One of the Spitfires is a Hurricane, you can tell by the greenhouse they used for a cockpit cover.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

^ That was beautiful. A perfect combination of voice, mood and lyrics.


Paul: Are those planes the real thing, or replicas? I only ask because if I had a wartime Spitfire or a 109 I wouldn't want people clambering all over them.

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http://www.battleofbritainexperience.co.uk/

It says on the website that they are replicas. The website is on the banner in one of the photos.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Finally - the pics of the Messerschmidt 109 and 2 Spitfires.

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I could not help noticing the serial no of the Hurricane replica: The original was flown by RAF ace R. Stanford Tuck. More info here and here.

/Claes

Thanks Claes - fascinating stuff.

I've just been down the allotment. We have been clearing rubbish and fixing boundary fences around the site for the past couple of weeks, but this week it is chucking it down.

Our "Boundary Task Force" comprises of 5 blokes and one woman, and is akin to something out of Last of the Summer Wine seeing as I'm the youngest at 48. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YZr_...feature=relmfu

Having said that, we had to traverse a fence, using two ladders and "yomp" upriver to where a load of rubbish had gathered on the bank, and remove it. We were, I felt, moving from Last of the Summer Wine closer to Where Eagles Dare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XKGhG0W0LQ

Here's a link to the Last of the Summer Wine and aviation. Wally also contributes an interesting twist to our linguistics discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bit3wkgHtVc

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

...Having said that, we had to traverse a fence, using two ladders and "yomp" upriver to where a load of rubbish had gathered on the bank, and remove it. We were, I felt, moving from Last of the Summer Wine closer to Where Eagles Dare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XKGhG0W0LQ

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Here's a link to the Last of the Summer Wine and aviation. Wally also contributes an interesting twist to our linguistics discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bit3wkgHtVc

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Thanks for the allotment updates.
Where Eagles Dare or perhaps the The Eiger Sanction...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEc1aEYmiA8

Summer Wine was funny, there's a nice detail shot of a Mick style wall at 6:51

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I think I may be a Dadaist.

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/a...compressor.jpg

I love the sound of air-wrench in the morning.

I am pheeling a bit patriotic aphter all those jubilee shinanigans. (apologies - grandchild sprinkled tea on keyboard.)


http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k7...ubilee_WKD.jpg


I wonder i Mrs P... No phorget that.