I did bring up that suggestion in one of my earlier posts aout the the ligtening, and the tension that elerctircal storms cause in the air, refeclting the tensions within the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
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I did bring up that suggestion in one of my earlier posts aout the the ligtening, and the tension that elerctircal storms cause in the air, refeclting the tensions within the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, you did Dark Muse; I think I commented on what you said, also. I know the electrical storm and tension were mentioned a page or so back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Of course, there are always going to be better stories, and worse ones, as well; some will be more developed and whether we like them or not is really individual. I choose this current story because I was looking for a simplier one and this one seemed to strike a cord with me. It is a young work, but even with that it does excell compared to some other early works by others. As L said about his "Sons and Lovers" - it is an early work and I will never write just like this again. I find all of L's works fascinating, even though I could rate some better than others; I try not to compare them though because they all seem different to me. Maybe at the end of discussing all the stories we care to on this thread - we could indeed have a sticky poll and rate the stories we have discussed. That might be fun. It would only show what the majority here liked but that may be helpful.
So with this comparatively simple story, if you add in all the assumptions and the subtext, to a huge degree, this story will take on many complications and become more complex than you first though.
Hey, Virgil, I thought you said to me we might be 'over analysising' these stories - going too deeply into them. I didn't personally agree with that idea, but maybe we can make too many blind assumptions about this story, also. When I picked this one, I mainly was interested in the shift in the story between loyalties between the three main characters; husband, wife, and young man. Often these type of situations have surfaced in L's work. In "Sons and Lovers' there was Clara, her husband and Paul, if you recall and in the end Paul and the husband formed a similar bond. I am just trying to say, that when I chose the story this was my concentration. I liked the other elements in the story as well. I did not think anything really sexual about Kate or the baby scene but I will be anxious to hear what all of you have to say about it.
Virgil, thanks for posting so we can move on. I see you got over your scotch and are back to comparable normalacy today. :lol: I read some of your philosphophical thread and got totally confused after awhile; I guess I needed a wine or scotch to understand it all. Too heavy for me.
I will post this part of the text, since I have to go out most of the day. I need to go get ready now. You can all talk about it up to this point since you are all so anxious and I will comment later on.
Next Part of the Text:
It stoped before the child and Severn goes into the house - this is just the garden scene. That should keep you all busy for awhile and I can easily catch up later tonight. Have fun.Quote:
Edward Severn went into the dining-room. It was eight o'clock, very dark for a June evening; on the dusk-blue walls only the gilt frames of the pictures glinted pale. The clock occupied the room with its delicate ticking.
The door opened into a tiny conservatory that was lined with a grapevine. Severn could hear, from the garden beyond, the high prattling of a child. He went to the glass door.
Running down the grass by the flower-border was a little girl of three, dressed in white. She was very bonny, very quick and intent in her movements; she reminded him of a fieldmouse which plays alone in the corn, for sheer joy. Severn lounged in the doorway, watching her. Suddenly she perceived him. She started, flashed into greeting, gave a little gay jump, and stood quite still again, as if pleading.
"Mr. Severn," she cried, in wonderfully coaxing tones: "Come and see this."
"What?" he asked.
"Com' and see it," she pleaded.
He laughed, knowing she only wanted to coax him into the garden; and he went.
"Look," she said, spreading out her plump little arm.
"What?" he asked.
The baby was not going to admit that she had tricked him thither for her amusement.
"All gone up to buds," she said, pointing to the closed marigolds. Then "See!" she shrieked, flinging herself at his legs, grasping the flannel of his trousers, and tugging at him wildly. She was a wild little Mænad. She flew shrieking like a revelling bird down the garden, glancing back to see if he were coming. He had not the heart to desist, but went swiftly after her. In the obscure garden, the two white figures darted through the flowering plants, the baby, with her full silk skirts, scudding like a ruffled bird, the man, lithe and fleet, snatching her up and smothering his face in hers. And all the time her piercing voice reechoed from his low calls of warning and of triumph as he hunted her. Often she was really frightened of him; then she clung fast round his neck, and he laughed and mocked her in a low, stirring voice, whilst she protested.
The garden was large for a London suburb. It was shut in by a high dark embankment, that rose above a row of black poplar trees. And over the spires of the trees, high up, slid by the golden-lighted trains, with the soft movement of caterpillars and a hoarse, subtle noise.
Oh I'm sorry D-M. I must have missed that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes that is interesting, and I do find the characterization and the fleshing out of the narrative very well handled. It does show someone incredibly skilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
No, I don't think your wrong at all. The tension is there; it's just not explicitly stated at the beginning. It's created through the tone of their conversation and the development of the plot. There's a flirtatousness in the tone, and the conflict later in the story really changes our opinion of their relationship. Immediately after the fight between the husband and Severn has been resolved, Lawrence reminds the reader that Kate's being thrown out--alsost as if to say "Look! it's happening over here, too."Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
The child is a tease. She toys with Severn just as the mother does. The language in this section is just like in the previous story where there was a similar seduction going on. The man, of course, walks blithely into the trap again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
That is an interesting observation, the way in which Severn is always stumbling in these "sexual" or "seductive" traps of the women, though of course the child is not at this age being "sexual" intentionally, but there is an implication within her behavior and the way she acts, though I do not think Sever's actions and feelings toward the child are in any way unnatural or inappropriate, there is an implication upon Severn's situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
When I have the time I will coment on the rest of the text.
What catches my eye is that description of the little girls, and I believe Lawrence repeats it later on.Quote:
She was a wild little Mænad.
From Webster's:
andQuote:
Main Entry: mae·nad
Pronunciation: \ˈmē-ˌnad\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin maenad-, maenas, from Greek mainad-, mainas, from mainesthai to be mad; akin to Greek menos spirit — more at mind
Date: 1579
1 : bacchante
2 : an unnaturally excited or distraught woman
What's the significance? I think it suggests her primitive naturalness, a wild freedom prior to society layering people with conventions. Notice that she's the only one associated with a pagan diety. The others are associated with Judaism, Protestism, and Catholicism.Quote:
Main Entry: bac·chante
Pronunciation: \bə-ˈkant, -ˈkänt; -ˈkan-tē, -ˈkän-\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Latin bacchant-, bacchans
Date: 1579
: a priestess or female follower of Bacchus
Yes I found it interesting that the child was portrayed as a little heathen, and especially being that Bacchus was the most hedonistic of the Pagan gods.
He would really be the complete extreme in contrast to Catholicism and Prostatism
I love the description in this passage, and I really liked his use of the word delicate ticking. The word delicate could have more than one meaning here. As the whole balance of the house is quite delicate we late come to see. As well it suggests a certain quiet, and unobtrusiveness, this perhaps is almost the clam before the storm.Quote:
Edward Severn went into the dining-room. It was eight o'clock, very dark for a June evening; on the dusk-blue walls only the gilt frames of the pictures glinted pale. The clock occupied the room with its delicate ticking.
I noticed reading this story, the colors white and yellow seem to crop up a lot, and I was curious about this, as here it points out that the girl is wearing a white dress, and Severn, says it makes him think of a mouse playing in the corn. I love how the sort of free, wildness of the child is captures, with her quick movements and flashing greeting.Quote:
Running down the grass by the flower-border was a little girl of three, dressed in white. She was very bonny, very quick and intent in her movements; she reminded him of a fieldmouse which plays alone in the corn, for sheer joy. Severn lounged in the doorway, watching her. Suddenly she perceived him. She started, flashed into greeting, gave a little gay jump, and stood quite still again, as if pleading.
Here he knows that he is being tricked, and yet he walks right into it anyway. Perhaps in some regaurds he does the same with Mrs. Thomas, maybe he knows she is just trying to cause trouble, and yet he cannot stop himself from partaking in it.Quote:
"Mr. Severn," she cried, in wonderfully coaxing tones: "Come and see this."
"What?" he asked.
"Com' and see it," she pleaded.
He laughed, knowing she only wanted to coax him into the garden; and he went.
"Look," she said, spreading out her plump little arm.
"What?" he asked.
I found it interesting how she was constnatly refered to as simply "the baby" when everyone else is given a name, though her mother calls her by name once, other than that she is always only the baby.Quote:
The baby was not going to admit that she had tricked him thither for her amusement
Once more bird imagery is used. First to describe Severn and now here in reference to the girl. Also I found it interesting how they are said to be "two white figures"Quote:
She flew shrieking like a revelling bird down the garden, glancing back to see if he were coming. He had not the heart to desist, but went swiftly after her. In the obscure garden, the two white figures darted through the flowering plants, the baby, with her full silk skirts, scudding like a ruffled bird, the man, lithe and fleet, snatching her up and smothering his face in hers.
Though I still do not think I would say there was sexual tension between Severn and the child but these lines I did find to be a bit currious, and even somewhat odd.Quote:
And all the time her piercing voice reechoed from his low calls of warning and of triumph as he hunted her. Often she was really frightened of him; then she clung fast round his neck, and he laughed and mocked her in a low, stirring voice, whilst she protested.
The way in which he is said to be hunting her, and than it says:
I did wonder just what that was about.Quote:
Often she was really frightened of him;
I loved this passage, and the imagery and desciptions used here.Quote:
The garden was large for a London suburb. It was shut in by a high dark embankment, that rose above a row of black poplar trees. And over the spires of the trees, high up, slid by the golden-lighted trains, with the soft movement of caterpillars and a hoarse, subtle noise.
Becasue we love pictures over here, I could not resist this painting by Monet, of Poplar trees
http://www.artsupply.com/artservices...net%5B1%5D.jpg
Interesting on the colors. I can't think of any significance. Perhaps just Lawrence trying to be visual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
You guys keep saying he's tricked by Mrs Thomas. What did I miss? I don't recall she tricking him.Quote:
Here he knows that he is being tricked, and yet he walks right into it anyway. Perhaps in some regaurds he does the same with Mrs. Thomas, maybe he knows she is just trying to cause trouble, and yet he cannot stop himself from partaking in it.
Hmm, the bird imagery is interesting. I can't think of its significance.Quote:
Once more bird imagery is used. First to describe Severn and now here in reference to the girl. Also I found it interesting how they are said to be "two white figures"
To me, given that there is sexual tension in the air and given the licking games between them and given he undresses her, I have to suspect there is an unconscious sexual tension that Lawrence is implying.Quote:
Though I still do not think I would say there was sexual tension between Severn and the child but these lines I did find to be a bit currious, and even somewhat odd.
Perhaps for Mrs. Thomas tricked is too strong a word, but she does play Severn and Mr. Thoams against each other, when Severn and Mr. Thomas are having thier political debate over the supper table, Mrs. Thomas, takes sides with her husband, becasue she knows if she were to take Severn's side, he would be gentle with Mr. Thomas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Quote:
Mrs. Thomas meanwhile took her husband's side against women, without reserve. Severn was angry; he was scornfully angry with her. Mrs. Thomas glanced at him from time to time, a little ectasy lighting her fine blue eyes. The ironly of her part was delicious to her. If she had sided with Severn, that young man would have pitited the forlorn man, and been gentle with him.
Ok, thanks. ;)
You may be onto something Anti. Lawrence would use colors in that fashion later in life. Perhaps he may have been using them all along and I never noticed. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
It's amazing how much of my Lawrence expertise increases by discussing these stories with all you outstanding readers. :)
I find it interesting that the "Pagan" of the group, the child, who could be cast as Eve, particularly sense she is seen within the gardens, is named Mary of all things, the Virgin.
Or perhaps she is meant to be more Mary Magdalene.
Though I still disagree with Virgil about sexual tension between the child and Severn, I still think it was present between Severn and Kate
Yes, and I read that he was doing a lot of painting at this time when he wrote this story. I think Lawrence often uses white; it can signify purity and a certain innocense; a purity before the world's tainting perhaps; a kind of departure back into the purity of the past and the pagan world. It brings to mind a passage in "The White Peacock" in the woods when they all come across wild snowdrops. I will have to look that up and post that passage and it may give you some insight into the idea of white and what it meant to L. It also, could mean a kind of virginal whiteness - the purity of the child and the young man's purity at this point in his life - maybe the purity of Adam, before Eve tempted him with the apple. Also, if you notice, this scene takes place in a garden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
You know, I don't understand that either; really, it is jumping way aheard of the text that I posted. Can we hold up on that till we get to the conversation between Mrs. Thomas and Severn alone in the parlour?Quote:
You guys keep saying he's tricked by Mrs Thomas. What did I miss? I don't recall she tricking him.
I found this poem online today. I think it is interesting and relates somehow:Quote:
Hmm, the bird imagery is interesting. I can't think of its significance.
I believe this story was based on Lawrence's time as a border at the home of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones. I stated this earlier in my introduction.Quote:
This is one of a group of poems inspired apparently by Hilda Mary, the baby daughter of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones, at whose house Lawrence lodged when he was teaching at Croydon.
A Baby Running Barefoot
When the bare feet of the baby beat across the grass
The little white feet nod like white flowers in the wind,
They poise and run like ripples lapping across the water;
And the sight of their white play among the grass
Is like a little robin’s song, winsome,
Or as two white butterflies settle in the cup of one flower
For a moment, then away with a flutter of wings.
I long for the baby to wander hither to me
Like a wind-shadow wandering over the water,
So that she can stand on my knee
With her little bare feet in my hands,
Cool like syringa buds,
Firm and silken like pink young peony flowers.
I think this poem is quite innocent and I sm surprised actually at some of your seeing sexual connotations to do with the child in the story. I think only in the way the child might be beginning to imitate adults and thus is breaking out of the inate 'purity' she would have been born with. It does not say how old the child is, but if Severn is thinking, soon she will be too old for him to undress, then she has some learned behavior, by her age. Children learn by what they see; this would maybe even explain, these little games she is playing with Severn. The 'teasing' would be something she would have learned from adults, by observing them.
I just don't see that; first off, there is no licking games between them. The baby is doing the licking and teasing, not Severn. I do see that he feels uncomforable with the child, now that she is growing older and doing such things. He probably realises he will have to let go of her, as she leaves her innocence behind and accept her as no longer being 'a baby'. Even though, she is referred to, continually, in the story as 'the baby', actually she is growing up into a child and will be leaving her babyhood and untouched purity (whiteness) behind her eventually. As a baby, she is pure and sexless in a way; as she grows she takes on her womanhood. Severn must know that soon this will be the case and he can no longer have the intimacy with the baby/child.Quote:
To me, given that there is sexual tension in the air and given the licking games between them and given he undresses her, I have to suspect there is an unconscious sexual tension that Lawrence is implying.
I am kind of tired, so I hope all that makes sense.