Wowy! I go away to sleep and come back to find all this. I guess the discussion has begun. Quark wanted to know when. I think it is well underway. Glad of it, because this is a very good start.
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I'm not so sure that this story is as simple as the surface implies. Perhaps it is, but there are some interesting elements to the story that if they connect thematically (and I haven't in my first reading completely comprehended it all) could make this a complex work. For instance, why does Lawrence include the detail of Kate being Jewish, and why is a point made that the Thomas's are protestant and Severn is a lapsed Cathloic? Why is the story titled "The Old Adam"? Why is the little girl, and especially the two scenes, one where he's racing after her and the other where he undresses her for bed, included? What is is going on with the sexual tension between Severn and Mrs. Thomas? Is there is sexual tension between him and Kate, and even perhpas between him and the little girl? If so why? And why do Severn and Mr. Thomas make up at the end so easily? I haven't figured all of this out, but I think those are some of the key questions that will allow us to untangle this story.
This is really good Virgil. I often think we should present questions like this at the beginning of a discussion. This really stimulates us to think about various elements. I also wondered about the title “Old Adam’, and Lawrence’s remark to Louie Burrows – ‘why mustn’t I write Old Adams? You are absolutely right – this is not a simplistic story – hey, are there any of L’s that truly are. I am sure we will find out there is more to it than perceived on our first reading. I hope to re-read the complete story again soon and note various things you have pointed out. Also, I will be posting text to review. I that is always very revealing, even looking at what lies between the lines.
I would add to your questions this: what would be the significance of the story taking place during the thunderstorm? Lightening is filled with tension and with light. Light is often such a huge theme with L. What would he be saying here with light emanating from lightening, electric. I just found the background setting so interesting and something different than what we have encountered so far in setting. We have had night, we have had day, but now we another totally different atmosphere presented early on in this story.
Quote by Antiquarian
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I did not like the fact that he pointed out Kate was Jewish and that made her "look" different.………it was blonde as a child. My mother was a strawberry blonde, my father my dark.
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Yes I understand. Much early part of the 20th century had these racial notions. It even amounted to shaping o fheads of different races and the supposed implications. You can see references in a lot of early 20th century fiction, maybe even late 19th century fiction. Lawrence was not immune to the ignorant racial theories of his day. (As a side note, hitler's racial theories did not come in a vacuum; they were out there in the general public and not just in Germany but across Europe and even America.) I don't think that's the significance of Kate's Jewishness. He goes out of his way to mention the Protestant and the Cathlolic religons too.
I agree with Virgil here; it was the times and I don’t think you can take Lawrence’s remark personally nor in a negative light. When he said it I did not see it as anything at all negative. I agree that Lawrence also points out the other religions. If anything I think Lawrence would have sided with the Jews. He took his utopian community ideal/dream from a Jewish word and a song or poem I believe. Virgil knows more about that than I do.
Anti, just for the record, I was blond as a child too, so was my son and neither of us are blond now; in fact my son has very dark hair. It is funny, both and his father have been taken as Jewish decent and his father was Irish. How many think that Irish people all have red hair; we all know now that is nonsence.
Quote by Dark Muse
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I think the attraction between Severn and Mrs. Thomas ties into the fight. I felt in someways it was a very primal/male dominance type of fight. As I think in the story it makes a reference that Severn and Mr. Thomas were the best of friends when Mrs. Thomas was not there, but when she was in the room they were hostile to each other.
They were two stags fighting for the rights over the female
Dark Muse, This reminded me of what Lawrence once pointed out about 3 people being a problem and causing friction – recall ‘Two Blue Birds’; also, in my Michael Black Early Fiction book he points out something about this scenario which has been seen in other Lawrence works. Remember, too the bonding that took place at the end of ‘The Blind Man’? When we get to this part in the text (really the end scenes) I will point out in more detail what Michael Black suggests about this bonding between two men in Lawrence’s works.
Your last statement, DM, made me laugh; I recall that painting in one of the stories; however, I think that was a stag and another animal.
Quote by Antiquarian
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I think Severn's reaction to the little girl was a very normal one for a man of twenty-seven and one who's had no sexual experience. Perhaps it's included to show Severn is a very modest man and one who is very polite.
Quote by Virgil in answer to Antiquarian
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OK, I thought it was a little more than natural, but when can look into it when we get to the text.
Virgil, I agree with Antiquarian, and yet I will also be anxious to see what the text says when we look at it closer. I didn’t feel anything was unnatural though. I felt, as in ‘Sun’ Lawrence was looking at the child in a very ‘natural’ light and took nothing offensive from that passage. Hey, Virg, you trying to make our L into a pedefile? Read “Lolita” instead! :lol:
Quote by Antiquarian
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Severn is young enough, I think, to be sexually attracted to anyone who's good looking.
I agree with that whole-heartedly. Many young men that age will flirt and feel attraction. I had a son and he had guy friends and I know how that age group thinks. Sometimes they would really make me laugh.
Quote by Dark Muse
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…. when Kate opens the door for him, there might have been some sexual tension between the two of them.
I really do not think anything "unnatural" was between him and the girl.
....do not think it was sexual, but rather showed instead his more "paternal" feelings ……getting to the point where it will no longer be appropriate.
I felt this his sexual tension with Mrs. Thomas was natural considering his situation. A young man that has never "been" with a woman before, every day alone in ths house with her, while she is clearly discontented with her husband, and the story remarks that she was attractive. I think almost anyone in that circumstance would begin to develop certain feelings/desires.
I pretty much agree with all you said here, Dark Muse….now that is a first. :lol: I think there was also sexual tension or playfulness between Kate and Severn at the beginning.
Quote by Virgil
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But what's the significance of it? In a story about a character who gets into a fist fight with his landlord, why are the questions I brought up suggested in the text. Do you think Lawrence just included those scenes and details to pad the story or do they tie in?
I do think there is more significance to all this, as you point out here, Virgil. As you said before this is not really a ‘simple’ story; sometimes we have thought that at the beginning of these discussion and most times we have been proven wrong by our closer look at the text, themes, and symbolism, etc. In this case I am sure more will emerge as we do so and even re-read the actual text. Lawrence really never did write a story without significance; maybe this was seen as a lesser work but Lawrence apparently saw it differently, in that he even remarked how much he liked this story; that in itself seems significant for me and the remark about writing about Old Adams. Exactly what does he mean by that?
I see there is a new post since I was working on this in my offline program. Looks like it is going to be hard to catch up. After I post this I will read yours, Antiquarian, and try to answer that, too.
Edit Note: I had to come in, and edit because I see there is about 5 new posts instead of just one and they are some problems. I will try to look into that and address those privately. I am not meaning to ignore those post or anyone.
Poor Quark, is being left in the dust again; although when I post the first part of the story text, I think then he can catch up with no problem; Pensive, too, if she decides to join-in.
You guys are too hyperactive! :lol:
