Please..that ***** cannot write. If there was ever a case of over rating..it's her
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Please..that ***** cannot write. If there was ever a case of over rating..it's her
So a 13yr old girl is going to remain in the mindset of a "13yr old" girl her entire life?Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
I mean, i evolved as a reader from trashy books at 12/13 to classic literature. Do you still listen to the same music you did years back? watch the same movies? have the same views?
Progression. We are constantly moving forward and growing thus your theory and complete generalised belief that "uber" Twilight fans will never enjoy proper reading is incorrect.
I for example, read books for different things.
There are plenty of Twilight fans who are much older than 13, but to enjoy the book it's almost a requirement to think like a 13-year-old girl--it's just the demographic it's very blatantly aimed at.
Just to clarify- are you saying that people who really enjoy Twilight aren't capable of enjoying classics to their fullest?Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
Assumptions like that reeeaally bother me. Earlier in this discussion or one of the others in the pile surrounding this series, a comment suggested that if a reader is capable of enjoying Twilight, he/she is not capable of enjoying a much greater and renowned work. It's ridiculously offensive. The fact that I find the Twilight story entertaining in it's "teenage love dynamics" sort of way does not mean that I can't enjoy a thorough, active, and "proper" reading of something better.
Call me an uber fan if you want- I've read them all more than once, including the unfinished draft of the fifth book online, can't put them down while I read them, have seen the movie a gross number of times, and I'm anxiously awaiting the next movie.
It's the same with film though! I'm not going to start saying that the Twilight movie was some 'holy deliverance' to the film world. There's nothing new or innovative about it, none of Hitchcock's brilliant camera perspectives and lighting techniques. Twilight keeps me amused for a couple hours, but it doesn't mean that I can't examine great works of film for the art that they truly are.
I just think if you appreciate literature of a higher value, then Twilight would normally disgust you. It's like a wine connoisseur drinking boxed Sangria because he "enjoys" turning off his tastebuds. It just doesn't normally happen.
Certain aspects of Twilight do disgust me. Like I said, I'm perfectly aware that the quality of the writing is crappy and the grammar is absolutely atrocious. It's not as though I don't see these things when I read it. To a point, the writing is basic and bare-bones enough that I can develop the characters in my own way and explore their relationship in any way I choose. It's simply the impossible nature of the characters' relationship that I find interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
Maybe it doesn't normally happen, but I'm not going to start thinking "Oh no. I enjoyed Twilight. Maybe I really don't understand the other books I'm reading." Twilight is just a way to fill an afternoon. I don't read it to escape or because I think it's better than other books. There's absolutely no comparison between Twilight and the classics, and being aware of this distinction allows me to enjoy it for what it is.
Just because a person is a connoisseur of wine doesn't mean that wine is all he/she drinks. What's wrong with some fruit punch every once in a while? ;) You don't drink it expecting it to be wine, or be disgusted with the fact that it's not. It doesn't change how you feel about the wine. You don't think "I like Fruit punch. That must mean I don't appreciate good wine."
Unadulterated rubbish though I think that Twilight is, I don't sign up to the analogy here. And I speak as one who enjoys a high-quality wine. I also enjoy a cheap plonk. If the argument is that Twilight is plonk, then I can't see any reason not to knock it back once in a while. As my mother the nutritionist always used to say, "There's no such thing as junk food, dear; only junk diet."Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
However, my argument is that Twilight isn't wine at all. It's yellow food-colouring in sugar-water - and even if it's not harmful, it's certainly not beneficial, though kids seem to like it.
People often say, "Well, at least my children are reading. I'd rather they read Meyers than wasted their time playing video games."
I wouldn't. I'd much rather my kids played an intelligent and well-thought out video game, or watched a well-written and imaginative movie, or just goofed about making stuff up, than read Meyers.
I mean, if you really pushed me, I suppose I'd rather they read Meyers than formed a vicious infant gang that controlled the playground supply of Fruit Pastilles by the application of merciless Chinese burns and ritual name-calling. But only just.
It is a difference between enjoying a high-quality wine and claiming cultural superiority by enjoying a high-quality wine. :rolleyes:
I don't think that's at all the assumption being thrown around. The argument is whether or not reading Twilight will be useful to the reading career of young people. The anti-Twilight argument assumes that those who do read Twilight could be reading better literature and enjoying it. So I don't think you should be offended by that side of the debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
As far as I'm concerned, there is a small possibility that a reader of Twilight will go on to read other bad YA series until he or she realizes that there's higher literature out there and that it's worth reading. That's good. The probability of that happening, however, is very small and could be done with any text (even some valuable texts).
Nobody claimed superiority here.Quote:
Originally Posted by amarna
Stephanie Meyers? This is what I think of her:
The next evening Phoenix and Byron caught the direct red eye to Los Angeles, with the intentions of spending the following day soporifically languishing about the various airport shops or - if they could steal away from the hordes that pressed around them - furtively clinging to the ceiling of some abandoned baggage compartment, or other secluded spot. Byron had made his initial travel to America in the romantic tradition of Count Dracula, although his aristocrat taste would not condescend to endure a cargo vessel, and so he had chosen for himself one of the elite cruise lines. He was therefore a flight virgin, and approached the experience with all the excitement and frenzy of a child on his first trip abroad, talking constantly like an over-pressurized hot air balloon.
“Did I ever tell you about Madame Stefanie Meyers?”
Startled, Phoenix, who was brooding upon the loss of her parents and son, turned to regard Byron. “Who?”
“Your mention of Grub Street reminded me of her. It was during the time of Mademoiselle Guillotine’s reign - that wicked hour called “la Grande Terreur” when the people’ lust for blood grew to unprecedented heights. Madame Stefanie was born a peasant, and like most peasants, was jealous of those noblesse whose education and intelligence far exceeded her own. She found in the violent disposition of the people an opportunity to advance her own interests, and published a kitschy novella entitled L’heure Bleue, a substandard tale concerning a brood of vampires whose only relation to us was an aversion to sunlight and a need to drink the red juice. She enjoyed the benefits of success for a time, and then one day abruptly disappeared, never to be seen or heard from again.”
When he finished the story, Phoenix noticed an impish twinkling in his eyes, and smiled. “So where did you bury the body?”
Byron’s face brightened, and then he burst out laughing. “I thought you might like that story.”
Ang again not everyone agrees with you that it is crap. Is it a classic no did I enjoy it yes. Can I read classics and enjoy them yes and I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
The people who like 'reading' will soon move on from Twilight. They might have a passing like for it, or even be quite fond of it, but they will not be rabidly in love with it because likelihood is that the next book they get given will be something of a better quality. A lot of the readers of Twilight (and by no means all) aren't really 'readers'- they don't read much beyond Twilight. They're not into reading, but into the whole 'craze'.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
False analogy. A wine connoisseur can still enjoy a can of cold beer or coke or Sprite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
So many generalisations. I have not read and probably will not read Twilight because I do not like the fantasy as a genre but I don't see how we can pass such judgements about other people because they happen to like a certain book.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
ouch dr H!!!
*sigh* i guess i deserved that tho...
but if you don't think that Stephenie Meyer creates almost realistic characters, then who do you think creates believable characters?
Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, James, Flaubert, Faulkner, even Dickens sometimes. Beyond the classics Stephen King does a wonderful job and Cormac MacCarthy is disturbingly real.
for some reason, not to criticise you, i can never finish a Stephen King book...don't get me wrong, he does have a knack for creating good cahracters...
as for the rest....i don't know any of the others, except for Faulkner due to English class discussions....
but! have you started a thread about other authors like the ones you mentioned^?
I have to say that in the 20 pages of "Twilight" that I read. The characters had about as much definition as "Edward" would when he looks in a mirror. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beautifull
I couldnt resist. :blush:
HAHAHA Oh Kevin. I know you tried really hard there, but the Edward's character would appear if he looked in a mirror. The book actually talks about that. Valiant effort though ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinthediltz
:lol:at first Kevin was making no sense!!but you gotta admit tho, it was a good joke!
c'mon kevin, 20 pages? that's seriously not enough to get to know the characters...you diltz!:pQuote:
Originally Posted by kevinthediltz
I'm not entirely too sure who said it but someone a bit further back in this thread said something about Twilight playing on the sexual fantasies of girls. You have to be very, very careful when making a comment like that and of which i'm about to support and add to, but I think it's bang on.
Twilight, in my opinion, does not simply appeal to girls because of its "storyline" or the characters of which are, I must add, poorly crafted and pathetically executed, it plays on the desires of young girls. I'm gonna be treading on egg shells with this so I have to be careful but the sexual energy in that book is insane. It's almost as though Meyer is writing out her own fantasies in a book. The comments Edward makes about "breaking" Bella in half if he's not careful, the constant emphasis on his strength and how fragile she is, SCREAMS sex. The whole, "oh Edward take control of me with your dominant ways" is highlighted, page after page in that book.
Ask most people who read that book, the thing they are most interested in is Edward and Bella's relationship. Most of them picture themselves in place of Bella and the thought of being "controlled" and in the hands of someone who could break them in half appeals to them.
Deny it as much as they want, but Meyer knew what her selling point would be.
Sex. sex. sex.
p.s hello CC!
Ok guys there is no comparing Twilight or Harry Potter to classics but come on, take them for what they are: kid books. For all the people who diss Harry potter and call it trash ypu have to realize that it has always been aimed at younger children and teenagers. As for Twilight, while it is aimed for a teenage audience as oppose to preteen, it's still in all fairness a kids book. Albeit I'm in that age group and have been hooked on classics since i was about twelve but you can't completely discount a book because your out of the age group. Anouther thing about Harry Potter is that it has a good story and moral to it. I'm not at all ashamed to say I've read all seven of the books and highly enjoyed them, I also read the first one at 10, so it's all about age appropriateness.
A note to my other post, I read Twilight because my friends wouldn't stop talking about it and didn't enjoy it. I personally found it to be bad writing with bland and rather sexist characters. But my point still remains.
I don't understand what "age appropriateness" has to do with quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by cynara
yeah yeah....i think the last book was the only one that really did that, lima.
Ohkay, come on kids, Harry Potter is in a whole different league than the Twilight series.
DAMN! I thought I was being cheeky and original! :lol: I tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
It was as long as I could put up with. And I disagree. Dostoyevski can make me obsessed with the characters in less than ten pages. But thats Dostoyevski. Steinbeck can do that for me too. Enough to grip me. I read twenty pages of "Twilight" and couldnt remember a thing about it after I was finished. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beautifull
If you read all of the posts I think you will find that Twilight fans have said time and time again there is no comparing it to the classic. I am no kid and I enjoyed the books both HP and Twilight. The fact is books either appeal to you or they do not. But to say that people that read them are not serious readers is rubbish.Quote:
Originally Posted by cynara
Kevin I admire your effort by the way. You just cannot rely on the vampire lore being the same anymore:lol:
Hmm, 'Your blood tastes so good...but we musn't...' Big glaring metaphor, anyone? It's a bit creepy how much detail she goes into...
Do you mean you think the last book was the only one that was playing on teenage girls' sexual fantasies? Because it was the one that did it the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beautifull
hello everyone :)
I have a friend who is "fanatic" about Twillight series.She has birthday and I want to give her a book.Any suggestions?:)
She likes vampires and stuff but what I suspect she loved the most of Twillight is that ehmm..romantic element.It's really not my cup of tea,so I can't think of any book she might enjoy.:/
It was creepio! Fetish too far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lady
Haven't read the books or seen the movie. The fact that this is so popular seems to be a big reason people want to criticize it. It's kind of like the people who accuse the Potter books of being Satanic, (nevermind that the lesser-known His Dark Materials books are obviously anti-religious and also 'kids' books).
Twilight is a romance, and from what it sounds like, a pretty shallow romance. That's just a popular genre. Nothing new about it, or sensuality in a romance for that matter. Not that I don't understand people's frustrations that these kinds of books are more read than their oh-so-beloved classics.
But I'm getting sick of people complaining about Twilight, and making nasty insults about Meyer like they know the lady. It's one thing to say she's a crappy writer, it's another to call her a b**** or worse.
For all we know, Twilight may actually become a classic in the future. Weren't some classics considered trashy when they came out? But I'm in no rush to read it, I've got enough to read right now. Think I'll just pass.
The problem is not that it's a romance, not that it's popular, not that it makes vampirism a metaphor for teenage sexuality, not even that it has a predictable but surefire plot. All those are fine, and I'm sure we can come up with a list of books to which one or more of the above apply, but which don't attract the kind of dismissive weariness that's been seen in this thread. So - to be clear - none of those attributes cause a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by teashi
The problem is that it's so badly written. One might not mind that, or one might mind it so much that one feels like putting out one's own eyes with a newly-sharpened 2HB. But it remains the case - it's so badly written.
All together now, nice and loud - it's so badly written.
And that, if you ask me, is justification enough for expressing a low opinion of the woman responsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitra
Err...
wrong thread?
{edit}
er...Dimitria....maybe something...Twilightish?
Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
hello LJ midear!
Now on to the good stuff..
Can't argue with the fact that sex plays a giant part in the novels. I was actually really surprised by the blatant sexual undertones of the first two novels (they're not even undertones by the time you get to the last two) because of the age group towards which these books are geared. I wasn't reading stuff like that when I was twelve haha. But it's the dominance dynamics that make the whole relationship interesting because while Edward is clearly physically dominant and Bella's all fragile and whatnot, the author makes a point of expressing that Bella is meant to be the dominant person in their relationship. The characters are both meant to be such passionate people but there are physical barriers (at least for a while :rolleyes:) and that throws the dominance/ submission dynamics all over the place. The first book was obviously sexual in its descriptions, but it was the sensuality without the physical relationship that I found kind of interesting.
And this is why the fourth book was by far the worst- the author let go of all these interesting dynamics and just had the characters go at it the whole time. :sick:
Yeah, I know 'it's badly written' is a big complaint too. But the things I mentioned also seem to be reasons people dislike the books, or they seem to add to their disliking of it. It's understandable people want to blame someone for something they think is so grossly undeserving of success, but calling the writer a b****? That just seems low. And it hardly proves the person saying it is above her 'trashy' work.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
People can say what they want, but I don't think reading a crappy book is a good reason to make personal insults about the writer. It's the work itself you hate, so attack that.
sorry I just thought because many of you were big fans here could give me some suggestions..I didn't mean to interrupt your discussions.:/Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
You didn't interrupt, Dimitra! We just don't want you to get jumped on by people telling you that similar work isn't worth reading either, or something like that :) Welcome aboard!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitra
I'm a fan of Twilight, but I don't read anything else for this age demographic or relating to the subject matter, so I couldn't recommend anything similar to you!
Feel free to join the discussion though!
Now I think about it, it occurs to me that I can forgive a good writer anything - from an ugly beard (Dickens) to casual racism (Pound). But I will mercilessly cajole and insult bad writers, even if they're quite nice people and really kind to kittens.Quote:
Originally Posted by teashi