Chekhov Short Story Thread

I read over "The Black Monk" just now, and I think it would be a good read for the next discussion. It's an oddly compelling tale of, um, well, I can't really say without giving it away too much. Then it would be less odd and compelling. The story is very similar to some of the others we've done except that it's much more psychological. I had read this story once before, but I was getting it confused "The Bishop" for some reason. I don't know why. Bishop and monk are both religious figures, I guess. I was a little sceptical of the story at first because I thought we were talking about "The Bishop" which isn't as good of a story. Some people like "The Bishop" and it's in both of my collections, but I've always been underwhelmed by it. "The Black Monk," however, is quite interesting. I have some objections to it--like Janine's reservations about "Sleepy." I'm willing to be a team player for this discussion, though.

The only problem might be the length. It's almost thirty pages long! To make things easier for everyone, I probably won't start the discussion until Sunday or Monday. That way everyone has time to read. We'll go slow during the discussion, too.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Antiquarian, did you notice when I posted the new segment of type in the short story everyone seems to have vanished? It is like your 'Miss Emily' thread - the contravery stops and everyone departs. I wanted to get back to the text, so we can finish up soon and start something new. It will be good to move onto another story in this thread and in the Lawrence thread, don't you think?

I am taking bets next on who will hate who in the next story! :lol:

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I wouldn't be worried about participation on that thread. We've filled thirty pages with conversation on the current story.

What is the next story, by the way? I know you said before, but now I can't find where.

I will look forward to The Black Monk, and start reading as soon as I can, it sounds compelling

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

"The Black Monk" sounds very good.

Janine hasn't posted the title of the next Lawrence story, Quark. She just posted that she's chosen it. Janine is a woman of mystery. ;)

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:lol: ;) :lol: Good one, Antiquarian! :nod: :cool: :brow:

Thank you Quark!!! :D I am looking forward to reappearing here for this discussion...

I've just been so busy with work and with a couple short outdoor trips, that I haven't had time for almost anything.. but tonight I went to the Debussy's "Pelias et Melisande" which was just wonderful.. so maybe that is a sign of things being less hectic for me, haha... not likely though...

Janine! Congratulations on being a grandmother! I am sorry I didn't get on here to say it sooner... Is it a granddaughter or grandson??

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

And quite true, making the group wait. ;) Everyone will be thumbing threw books or on the Gutenburg site trying to figure out which one it is. :)

So far, I only have one book to thumb through. Makes it easier for me. LOL

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:lol: I love being mysterious...but, Antiquarian, you can get a really good clue (so you can narrow it down) if you check out my post of my recently read list in the thread on this site. I listed that particular story with others, that I read the last few weeks.

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Thank you Quark!!! I am looking forward to reappearing here for this discussion...

I've just been so busy with work and with a couple short outdoor trips, that I haven't had time for almost anything.. but tonight I went to the Debussy's "Pelias et Melisande" which was just wonderful.. so maybe that is a sign of things being less hectic for me, haha... not likely though...

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Wow, I love Debussy. That must have been amazing. I am truly jealous. Sounds relaxing, too.
Glad you are back islandclimber; your so interesting to talk to and discuss with....and you have prior knowledge of this story.

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Janine! Congratulations on being a grandmother! I am sorry I didn't get on here to say it sooner... Is it a granddaughter or grandson??

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Thank you, islandclimber. It has been wonderful being a grandmother so far. I got to see my pretty little sweet granddaughter yesterday and hold her quite a bit. Nice being a grandparent; I get to enjoy her and they get to do all the work! ;) . She is healthy baby, at birth 8lbs 14oz! I am just greatful all is well and baby and mother are doing fine; dad too. She is going to be daddy's little girl. My son adores her already.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse and answered by Antiquarian:
"I will look forward to The Black Monk, and start reading as soon as I can, it sounds compelling"

You can't resist that title, can you DM?

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That one really made her curious.:lol:
DM's in her glory lately, with the 'witchy' one in L and now this 'darkish' sounding tale in Chekhov.

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It sounds interesting to me, too. I intend to read it tomorrow if I have time.

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Yeah, finally one that I have available in my own book!:thumbs_up Thanks Quark for picking this one; although a little long, that should not pose too much of a problem this month.

LOL, yes it is true

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

LOL, yes it is true

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Always here to accomodate!:lol:


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I saw your list, Janine, and yes, one can narrow it down quite a bit.

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So you did see it afterall. Yes, easy to guess my mind I suppose. But for the record, it is not 'The Christening' - that story was kind of sad, but we might do it another time, who knows. Wasn't as bad as 'Sleepy'.

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I just got back from Barnes and Noble, where I got three inexpensive books with a gift card and from the video store, where we rented four movies: "National Treasure 2" (brother and husband's rental), "Away From Her," "The Devil Wore Prada" (in the mood for some comedy) and "The Jane Austen Book Club."

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I saw "National Treasure 1" so I know what you mean - entertaining I guess. I saw "Devil Wears Prada" - got a kick out of that film; I want to rewatch "Jane Austen Book Club" - got a kick out of that, too. I will have to see if my library has "Away From Her". Going there tonight probably. Enjoy your films!

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Very interested in starting the new Chekhov and Lawrence stories.

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Yes, always fun to start in with a new story. It will be soon. Just have to finish up the L story for now....we will get there.:)

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Janine hasn't posted the title of the next Lawrence story, Quark. She just posted that she's chosen it. Janine is a woman of mystery. ;)

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Oh, I guess I wasn't missing it. There isn't any rush for Janine to pick since we're not even close to starting another story, yet.

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

Thank you Quark!!! :D I am looking forward to reappearing here for this discussion...

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I'm glad we're getting one of favorites this time. You know that means you have to be here for the discussion, right?

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Originally Posted by Janine

DM's in her glory lately, with the 'witchy' one in L and now this 'darkish' sounding tale in Chekhov.

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Yes, DM must be reveling in the recent choices. To get even we're going to have to do some unbearable warm and fuzzy stories soon.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yeah, finally one that I have available in my own book!:thumbs_up Thanks Quark for picking this one; although a little long, that should not pose too much of a problem this month.

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I thought this story might be a stretch for you, but it sounds like it will work out. We'll go slowly to make sure we don't lose anyone. Also, I won't open the discussion for few days. That should give everyone time to read over the story.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Quark lacks your mystery. He just came right out and told us the next story would be "The Black Monk." ;)

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I was just responding to public pressure. It sounded like this was the favorite. Once I read it, I knew this one would be excellent for discussion, and there wasn't any need for mystery.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Oh, I guess I wasn't missing it. There isn't any rush for Janine to pick since we're not even close to starting another story, yet.

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Thanks, Quark. I was going out, but then decided to stay close to my house tonight because I don't feel particularly well - stomach; so hopefully, I can post some more of the text tonight. That way we can move closer to that dramatic ending.

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I'm glad we're getting one of favorites this time. You know that means you have to be here for the discussion, right?

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I hope you can also, islandclimber. The story sounds real good. Somehow this title interests me; don't ask me why, but it does. I liked the other monk one I read; I forget the name now but islandclimber, you suggested that one to me I believe. It was on audiofile set.

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Yes, DM must be reveling in the recent choices. To get even we're going to have to do some unbearable warm and fuzzy stories soon.

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I have to see this to believe it - DM reading warm and fuzzy stories.:lol: She will lose her mirth.

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I thought this story might be a stretch for you, but it sounds like it will work out. We'll go slowly to make sure we don't lose anyone. Also, I won't open the discussion for few days. That should give everyone time to read over the story.

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Oh, I think I can fit it in somewhere, Quark. I haven't deserted your thread yet, have I? I usually stick with things when I get involved. Some might just call that getting in a rut.:lol:

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I was just responding to public pressure. It sounded like this was the favorite. Once I read it, I knew this one would be excellent for discussion, and there wasn't any need for mystery.

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Yes, there did seem to be a general consensius here, that this should be the next story. Well that made it easy for you for once, Quark. Oh can't wait to see what you come up this time for the opening page and the nice illustration/painting. This one should be interesting to come up with something great. I will keep that inmind while reading it; maybe give you some suggestion.

The photo you came up with with swans for that poetry thread was really nice. You intro page was a good one. Made me interested in reading the poem.

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I want to watch "The Jane Austen Book Club"

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...oh yeah I am sure they will; not sure the 'guys' will like that film - it might be too warm and fuzzy for them; I got a kick out it though. It is amusing, especially since we all know what book clubs can be like.

So Antiq, you can speak French? If so that is really cool. I wish I could speak it; only had it in HS and can't recall a thing now....well, maybe a few common phrases and that is it! I don't have a talent with other languages at all.

Enjoy "National Treasure 2" - it will no doubt be fun and if it is silly, you can all laugh at those parts together.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I have to see this to believe it - DM reading warm and fuzzy stories.:lol: She will lose her mirth.

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The horror! The horror!

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The horror! The horror!

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What did I tell you, Quark.;) I knew this would be your reaction, DM! :lol:

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I'm getting better and better at French, Janine. I can now read and write very well, but sometimes the native French just speak way too fast for me.

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Antiquarian, I would think so, with a French husband, but I am not even sure that would help me much. I just can't grasp a second language. I wish that I could. I can see some words written and recognise the meaning, in the French language, but forget about me pronouncing it correctly. I am awful at that.:( The French do speak fast in my opinion.

That film you mentioned I looked up online; sounds great; the one with Julie Christie. I like her.

I don't feel well tonight; it's my stomach. I ate out last night and something did not agree with me. Hope I am better tomorrow. Until then, see you all tomorrow in here. We are in-between stories now, am I right?

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

My husband is very, very good with English, though his English is heavily accented. He prefers to speak English rather than French here, so I don't get a lot of practice time in.

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It is good he is, because it would be a bit difficult to communicate. I can see, on the other hand, how you would get no practice. When you go back to France, to visit his family next, I would make him speak French for a month before you go....so you can practice.

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Yes, I'm sure we're between stories here. I started reading "The Black Monk" tonight, but I didn't get too far.

I hope you feel better tomorrow. :)

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I started reading the story last night, also. I was going to read "The Virgin and the Gypsy" instead, from where I broke off. My book is an older version than yours I believe, Antiquarian. It has this interesting composite drawing on the cover - very 'illustrationy' looking - hey, is that even a word? I think it is a Bantam book.

Anyway, the monk story was indeed in my collection - halaluah! I was going to read one page; before I knew it, I read a few chapters; I would have read more, but my eyes would not stay open. It was really good so far, and I loved the poetic prose, more so than any of the stories we have read before this.

Thanks for suggesting it, islandclimber; and for chosing it, Quark! I will be anxious to see what photo you come up for for this unique tale. It is a very visually rich story with many little details. I like that and it is very nice for spring. In fact it seems to have started out in May.

Antiquarian, thanks for asking; trying to get myself together to go out soon. I better depart from this computer if that is to happen.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Oh, I think I can fit it in somewhere, Quark. I haven't deserted your thread yet, have I? I usually stick with things when I get involved. Some might just call that getting in a rut.:lol:

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I didn't think you deserted us. If anything, I've deserted the Lawrence thread. The last few days of furious posting have left me behind. Hopefully, I can catch up tonight.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Oh can't wait to see what you come up this time for the opening page and the nice illustration/painting. This one should be interesting to come up with something great. I will keep that inmind while reading it; maybe give you some suggestion.

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Everyone's been so gaga over the pictures I've posted that I don't know whether I can live up to expectations. I'm sure I'll come up with something. You're right that this story does give me some options. With the Yeats discussion I didn't have so many choices. There it was just a matter of finding the right group of swans. If I had shown a picture of anything else, I would have gotten a bunch of confused posts saying "Where are the swans!" and "You're 59 swans short!" or "Gimme more swans!" A story like "The Black Monk" is a little bit more open-ended for illustrations. I could do the garden or some of the characters. It can't be that hard to find pictures of black monk.

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Originally Posted by Janine

...oh yeah I am sure they will; not sure the 'guys' will like that film - it might be too warm and fuzzy for them; I got a kick out it though. It is amusing, especially since we all know what book clubs can be like.

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I actually saw that chick-flic the other day. My step-mom was watching it, and it eventually clicked that it was the same movie you guys were talking about. It was a tolerable movie. I didn't find it competely repulsive. The spandex guy was endearing, and the women characters were sort of interesting. What was with the French teacher character? They made her more and more insane as the movie went on.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Anyway, the monk story was indeed in my collection - halaluah! I was going to read one page; before I knew it, I read a few chapters; I would have read more, but my eyes would not stay open. It was really good so far, and I loved the poetic prose, more so than any of the stories we have read before this.

Thanks for suggesting it, islandclimber; and for chosing it, Quark! I will be anxious to see what photo you come up for for this unique tale. It is a very visually rich story with many little details. I like that and it is very nice for spring. In fact it seems to have started out in May.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I finished reading "The Black Monk" today and I must say, I really loved it. It's beautiful, poetic, tragic. I think it will give us a wealth of things to discuss and I'm anxious to begin.

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So, that's two thumbs up. It is a good story. I think the discussion will be even more interesting. I'm curious to see which direction you guys take this.

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Originally Posted by Quark

I didn't think you deserted us. If anything, I've deserted the Lawrence thread. The last few days of furious posting have left me behind. Hopefully, I can catch up tonight.

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Really? I thought I slacked off a bit last week, but then I was a little preoccuppied in real life;) - this emoticon :blush: looks the closest to a baby, but ours has some dark hair on her head. Now I did manage some posts in the Lawrence thread but that is more interesting sometimes with loose corsets, bare limbs, phallic symbols, etc...the ones you just mentioned in your last post over there.;) :lol:

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Everyone's been so gaga over the pictures I've posted that I don't know whether I can live up to expectations. I'm sure I'll come up with something. You're right that this story does give me some options. With the Yeats discussion I didn't have so many choices. There it was just a matter of finding the right group of swans. If I had shown a picture of anything else, I would have gotten a bunch of confused posts saying "Where are the swans!" and "You're 59 swans short!" or "Gimme more swans!" A story like "The Black Monk" is a little bit more open-ended for illustrations. I could do the garden or some of the characters. It can't be that hard to find pictures of black monk.

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Haha:lol: I did wonder about those swans, but I understood the two did represent the lot, so I didn't ask any dumb questions, such as 'where are the other 59 swans, Quark?':lol: I keep thinking of this really cool artwork, I saw online by this artist, who is an illusionistic painter; this one is monks and they change into something else, when you look at it for a time. It would be so cool to post for this story but of course, it is under copyright laws so not sure we can on here; although you can copy it from online in a certain size; so maybe we could use it; I hunt for it. If I find it might fit I send you the link for consideration or go look for some monk type images - something mysterious, also. This painting I was thinking back to, is very mysterious looking. It is mirage like and erie I believe.

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I actually saw that chick-flic the other day. My step-mom was watching it, and it eventually clicked that it was the same movie you guys were talking about. It was a tolerable movie. I didn't find it competely repulsive. The spandex guy was endearing, and the women characters were sort of interesting. What was with the French teacher character? They made her more and more insane as the movie went on.

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Well, that sounds like a fair assessment, from a male point of view. I don't think this film would particularly appeal to males; although some may like it, who knows? How many males are really into Jane Austen books, to begin with? I laughed when I got to the part, where you said the 'spandex guy was endearing'. I thought so too, because he reminded me of my son, at that point in the film - my son mountain bikes and he wears a similar spandex body suit. But Quark, I know you like girls; you just told us recently; so what were you doing looking at Hugh Darcy's spandex? :lol:

When you say the French teacher, was she the one who had the weird mother - the latent hippie who almost burned her house down, played by Lynn Redgrave? She was a case, wasn't she? The dark haired daughter was so stuck up and proper when she joined the group and she was so funny with her above-it-all, know-it-all comments on the Austen text. I found her one of the most interesting of the characters, actually. She was so awful in the beginning, but she did make one laugh. I thought that actress did an admirable job of her acting. Boy, Jimmy Smitts (sp?) sure digressed to overweight and homely in his middle age; he used to be kind of cute. Well, it was one of those ensemble casts and I did enjoy it. At least, I did not fall asleep, like the other night while watching a play on DVD.

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So, that's two thumbs up. It is a good story. I think the discussion will be even more interesting. I'm curious to see which direction you guys take this.

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It should be a great discussion this time around!

I just finnised The Black Monk, and I loved it. It definitely had some Poe like elements within it, and well to be honest I could not help but to find it quite humurous in its own way.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I just finnised The Black Monk, and I loved it. It definitely had some Poe like elements within it, and well to be honest I could not help but to find it quite humurous in its own way.

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You know, I still have only gotten to chapter 2, but I had that exact thought about Poe, and then I thought right after - Dark Muse will like this story! So, I am right,huh?

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I must be missing a lot because I didn't see much like Poe in the story or anything humorous, but I did like it very, very much and think it will be great to discuss. I found it sad, really. Maybe in the discussion the Poe-like elements and the humor will come out for me. ;)

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Antiquarian, don't worry, I have not really gotten that far to make that Poe comparison; I was more or less just kidding with Dark Muse. I did find it strange that she thought it humorous though since you said it was so tragic, which would fit more with Chekhov's usual work.

I can exaplin the Poe elements of the story when we start the dicussion. As far as the humur part, well I love Dark/Black comedy, and though this story was not ment to be a comedy, there were certain elements of it my twisted sense of humur could not help but to be amused by

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Okay, great. Save it please, for the discussion. I wouldn't want Quark to think we'd started without him while he was out getting yellow highlighters for Lady Chatterley and rounding up the movies Janine recommended. :lol:

(Sorry, Quark, just joking! :))

Actually, I like Lady Chatterley a lot. I think it's a great book.

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Good to hear, Antiquarian, I think then you would definitely like his other books as well. I said before that "Sons and Lovers" is quite set appart and distinctly different from the novels that followed - Lawrence said so himself. I thought "Lady Chatterly's Lover" a fine book and very well crafted.

Yeah, don't start the discussion on "The Black Monk" yet please; poor Quark will take a fit if we do so, before he posts his nice introduction page and photo. Also, I have not even finished reading the story.

Quark, I did find many photos of Russian monks online last night, and they don't look quite like I would picture a monk, only one really had a hood and it was quite decorative; others had dark clothes and a sort of hat. I saved the photos, if you care to check them out; I could send them to your email address or provide links on here. I also found that illusionist painters work with monks but the gowns/hoods were not real black. Still it is an interesting looking painting.

Quess what Antiquarian? I just discovered this recently. I think that Quark mentioned a Chekhov short story called 'The Good Doctor' - well, I saw it done in play form and guess who played the 'good doctor'? Richard Chamberlain. Check it out on Amazon.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I will look for it, Janine, and thank you. I like anything with Richard Chamberlain. I saw him in a very strange Australian movie once called "The Waves," I think. I liked it, but it was strange. Maybe it was New Zealand. He played a lawyer defending a Maori and he got caught up in the mysticism of the group. The ending was very, very strange.

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Antiquarian, I thought "The Good Doctor" was a little strange, too, I think; or if I recall it correctly, from when I saw it awhile back. I just remember he talks to the audience quite a bit and I think he is not that decent a man; but don't quote me on that; it has been awhile since I saw it. When it comes back into my library, I shall watch it again; now I am curious knowing it was from a Chekhov story. I think it is listed on the Kultur site, too. I think it may be one of their DVD's productions. I saw it on Amazon the other night; just looked it up to refresh my memory and see if indeed, the story was originally by Chekhov and if it was based on the short story.

"The Waves" wasn't a remake of the Virginia Woolf novel was it? They do shoot a lot of English films in Australia. Hope that one comes into my library sometime; sounds interesting.

I hate to miss the in between story chat, but I've been out all day looking for apartments. Tomorrow and the next day are not going to be less busy either, unfortunately. I have to help someone move and drop in at a party. It probably won't be until Sunday night that I can post anything. I'll start the story either that night or the next morning. See you all then.

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Originally Posted by Quark

I hate to miss the in between story chat, but I've been out all day looking for apartments. Tomorrow and the next day are not going to be less busy either, unfortunately. I have to help someone move and drop in at a party. It probably won't be until Sunday night that I can post anything. I'll start the story either that night or the next morning. See you all then.

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Quark,that is fully understandable. Do take your time. Monday morning would be fine, although that is Memorial Day, so some people may be busy, anyway. Actually, some may be busy the whole weekend - summer is finally beginning!
We need a little break, as I see it, so no need to rush.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I'm getting kind of bored in between, myself. LOL I keep hoping we'll start discussing something. Of course, weekends are my husband's heaviest working days since he's in the restaurant/food industry.

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Well, if you can hang in there till Monday, that would be good for me; I tried to finish the story last night. It is a long one and I am such a slow reader; you must read fast, Antiquarian!
Anyway, I just could not finish, as much as I desired it; again my eyes would not co-operate, stay open. I think I only have one or two chapters left. One thing I can say about this story, is it is typically Chekhov, to me in that it is so sad (once again). It somehow also reminds me of Turgenev's work, such as the book "Fathers and Sons"; although, I fail to see any bit of humor in this story, as Dark Muse seemed to think. Actually, in "Fathers and Sons" I did encounter some bits of humor, such as the duel.

I will be posting more Lawrence text so you can all discuss that in the meantime. I know we have had a break in both threads for a day or so which is what I think is making us all restless.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I'm sure the discussion won't start until at least Monday, Janine. Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays are the bad days for discussion for me. Being in the restaurant business, those are the slow days and the days my husband is home and we usually go away, hiking or cycling or golfing. But I'm sure I can catch up. :) And I'll try to log on at least once.

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Well, Antiquarian, by the time Quark does post his title page and we all look over the story again, I doubt we will post much until the end of the week; so don't worry about it. I know I have a lot to do next week; this time of year, with spring and I need to get an airconditioner into a window or I will die of the heat upstairs. I also, need to get my summer cloths out; a little late now for fleece and sweaters, don't you think? I think it is now safe to put those away and get out lightweight tops and shorts. Yeah, bring on summer! :thumbs_up :D

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

It should be time to get summer clothes out, Janine, but I'm so intolerant of the cold, I leave a few sweaters out all summer long. LOL At least I've already read the story, so I won't have to catch up there, and I can log in before bed for a few minutes, I think.

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Oh yes, same with me. Antiquarian. I do that too, leaving a few things available all summer long; you never know when you might need them. Still the bulk has to be brought up two flights of stairs - tiring; try to do it little at a time. In fact, just when I get things rearranged it will get cold again; you wait and see; happens every year to me!

Anyway, glad you are all caught up. I did finish the story last night. Gee, I don't know quite what to make of it. I did love that ending. I did find it tragic and very, very sad. I will be interested to hear all of your comments first. I thought the writing was wonderful and the descriptions beautiful; great imagery. I thought the story very well crafted. I know it will make for a fine discussion.

I am having a little trouble with a few personal feelings, that unfortunately are interferring with my perception and the main concept of the story; I felt this last night, when I got to a certain part. I will explain to you, Antiquarian, in an email personally and not on this thread. It is a private matter and quite involved actually.

I seriously, will be anxious first to hear all of your comments, to open up this discussion and then I will probably comment after. I hope that sheds a clearer light on this for me; the problem I am having is simply a complex thing for me, personally. I think the story is more 'complex' than it appears to be on a first reading. I am hoping to read it again; I am sure I will see more things to enlighten me. It is not that I don't fully understand the story; that I do, absolutely and I understand exactly what Chekhov is conveying in this story and those ideas do appeal greatly to me. I just have some qualms - this might involve my own ideas on realism, etc. I am sure we will get into all this in-depth later on. Perhaps this story is not intended to be totally realistic such as a "A Rose for Emily" by Faulkner, or "The Man Who Loved Islands" by Lawrence. I tend to see things logically and realistically. Not sure that can apply here at all.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I tend to see things pretty logically and in a straightforward way, too, Janine. That's why the jokes and sarcasm some people indulge in just go right over my head. LOL I'm too literal, I guess, except in my own fiction writing.

However, this is one Chekhov story I think I do understand completely, strange as that may seem given the above. ;)

Sure, email me anytime you want.

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Yes, I know my logic is playing into this story too much. I must try and disregard that, to look at it differently. I think it is very artistically written and constructed. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about the story, Antiquarian. In some ways, it reminded me of the Faulkner story, in that the ending was also tragic and a little surprising. I kind of knew at that point, you would have liked this story very much.

It seems like everyone is ready for the next story. This one is much longer than the previous short story, so we'll move through it gradually. I'll post chunks of the story like I've done in other discussions. Really, I do that every time. I stopped in the last discussion because it was needless to post text when the entire text is only two pages long. "The Black Monk," having more pages, certainly needs to have parts posted to keep the conversation grounded to something specific in the story. I'll post the first section soon after the introduction. Here's the intro:

"The Black Monk"

The plot centers around the professor Andrey Vasilyevich Kovrin who takes a vacation to the country. There, he meets Pesotzky, his former gaurdian, and helps him with his impressive garden. He also becomes quite attached to Pesotzky's daughter, Tanya. The story follows Kovrin's interaction with this pair as he slowly becomes aware of his own physical weakening. Meanwhile, he's being visited by an apparition of a black monk which symbolizes many of Kovrin's own conceits and insecurities. Kovrin is one of Chekhov's most complicated characters, and in "The Black Monk" he gives him physical, mental, and social problems that he must engage with. Yet, for all that's going on, the story is told calmly and tranquilly. The comfortable garden scenes and light mocking of Pesotzky make the story seem pleasant and light-hearted, but underneathe the surface boils all of Kovrin's inner-turmoil.

It's an enjoyable read, and I hope we get a good discussion going. I expect there will be much talk about what the black monk actually symbolizes, and what it's role in the story is. But, I also think there's going to quite a lot to say about the style of this story--whether it's Poe-like or Faulkner-esk. Kovrin, of course, should be fun to discuss, as well as Pesotzky and the garden. There should be many points of interest. Hopefully we'll have time to get to everything.

Finally, there's the much anticipated story illustration. It's becomes so popular that I thought I should wait until the end to post it. That way I can give the picture some explanation. This one is an oil painting by a Russian artist from around the time this story was first published. It's been used before as a cover to a collection of Chekhov stories, but they applied it to "Ward No. 6" which I don't think it matches. It works well for the "Black Monk" because it reminds us that Kovrin is ailing while this story is going on. He doesn't want to admit it, and the text doesn't make much of his illness. But, it's still very present. He's in bed or on a couch most of his time. The painting reminds me of the reality that Kovrin doesn't want to admit. Also, I think the colors are great for this story. They seem to fit the mood.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...ih44whp4b3.jpg
Sleepless Nights by Nikolai Romadin (1905)

Well that's the introduction. I'll post the first section of the story in my next post.

Good job on the introduction Quark and nice painting/photo to begin with; interesting that it was painted around the same time of the publication of the story. I find you are right in that, it does seem to fit the mood of the story, as you explained it. I also, like what you wrote about this story and believe it actually, has me thinking in a slightly different mode than I was thinking, just after completing the story; it is a very complex/complicated story.

I found some cool photos of Russian monks I will send to you, or post in here
later in the story.

This should be a very interesting discussion. I can't wait till we start, but take your time. Today is a holiday....

Happy Memorial Day everyone!

Hope everyone is having a cookout!

Now that we have officially began the discussion there were a couple things I just briefly mentioned earlier, that I said would explain further when the discussion began.

First was the fact that I did find the story to have some Poe like elements within it, the reason I said this was for a few reasons. For one thing, the very beginning in which Kovrin is depicted as being a very nervous individual and this aspect of his nervousness does play into the story and comes up more than once, as well Egor is also said to be quite nervous a times.

The idea of "nervousness" and either having a nervous narrator, and the subject of the story being of a "nervous" frame of mind is something that can be frequently seen in the works of Poe and Poe does use this device of nervousness for the readers to question the one who is telling us the story, to better determine if the events within the story are to be taken literally, and are reliable, or if we should doubt what we are being told.

And of course madness is another common factor in a lot of a Poe's stories, as well I thought the ending of this story had a Poe like feel to it, in some ways it made me think of the Masque of the Red Death.

The other thing I said, was that in some ways I found this story to be humorous, which I know sounds rather strange, as well I know the story was intended to be tragic, as well it was, but to be perfectly honest, for one thing I thought all three of them, Kovrin, Egor and Tania were all neurotic in one degree or another, and just the fact that the three of them were living together in the same house, all going off on their own little tangents, Egor constantly fretting about the farm, Tania, always bursting into tears and locking herself in her room while Kovrin was walking around talking to his hallucinogenic monk well I could not help but to find that amusing. It paints a really funny image in my mind.

And well the banquet scene during the wedding when Kovrin sees the Black Monk at the dinner table with them, I found that hysterical.

Dark Muse, you gave really good reasons you felt the story Poe-like. Your post was well written and layed those ideas out well. I admit that I have read very little of Poe, but one forms an impression from poems and other people's remarks about Poe. My father loved Poe. I especially like the part you wrote about believing the narrator and he also being 'nervous'. That is a very interesting thought. It had not dawned on me before.

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The other thing I said, was that in some ways I found this story to be humorous, which I know sounds rather strange, as well I know the story was intended to be tragic, as well it was, but to be perfectly honest, for one thing I thought all three of them, Kovrin, Egor and Tania were all neurotic in one degree or another, and just the fact that the three of them were living together in the same house, all going off on their own little tangents, Egor constantly fretting about the farm, Tania, always bursting into tears and locking herself in her room while Kovrin was walking around talking to his hallucinogenic monk well I could not help but to find that amusing. It paints a really funny image in my mind.

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Actually, what I have been wanting to say, is that I thought none of them were sane. I thought the wife's fits of crying abnormal, and the father was such a perfectionist, concerning his garden, also a total 'control freak', so I have to agree with you about the three of them - Kovrin, Egor and Tania - none acted too rational to me. In fact, there were times, I actually thought Kovrin had it all together more do than the father and daughter did. One factor is, that they thought they were perfectly sane and Kovrin knew he had a problem when he started seeing the monk. At least, he could admit his. By his recognition that the monk was an halucination he seemed more in touch with reality, than they really were. Ironically enough, his awareness of his insanity made him more sane.

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And well the banquet scene during the wedding when Kovrin sees the Black Monk at the dinner table with them, I found that hysterical.

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I must check that scene out; I don't recall it at all. I think I might also find that amusing.

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Originally Posted by Janine

[I must check that scene out; I don't recall it at all. I think I might also find that amusing.

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It seems I was slightly wrong, it was in the same chapter when they were talking about the wedding, but it was not the actual wedding banquet, but another dinner where he showed up, I went back to check.

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One day the monk appeared during dinner and say down in the dinning-room near the window. Kovrin was delighted, and very adroitly turned the conversation with Egor Semenych and Tania upon subjects that might interest the monk. The black guest listened and nodded his head affably; Egor Semenych and Tania also listened and smiled gaily; never suspecting that Kovrin was not talking to them, but to his vision.

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I didn't think Tania and Igor were not sane (or insane). They were in touch with reality. I thought Tania was spoiled, though, and Igor was obsessed with his orchards, but not to the point of insanity. No one was really likable, though. Maybe Kovrin was the most likable.

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I did not truly think any of them were "insane" so to speak, but I do think their are degrees of both sanity and insanity. They were all a bit abnormal and eccentric, but not really institutional

I liked the Monk LOL

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

A lot of people on this forum don't like Poe, Janine. I don't know why. I think his short stories and poems are superb.

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Antiquarian, I did not know that about Poe and this site. I guess I did not run into those people, just Dark Muse, who always quotes him in her posts. Maybe I should read some Poe, it might cheer me up, so you would say Dark Muse, right?;)

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I didn't think Tania and Igor were not sane (or insane). They were in touch with reality. I thought Tania was spoiled, though, and Igor was obsessed with his orchards, but not to the point of insanity. No one was really likable, though. Maybe Kovrin was the most likable.

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Well, I didn't really mean literally they were 'insane', but they both had their issues I believe. For one, the father seemed to think no one could tend his garden but himself, and maybe his daughter; by projecting this duty onto his poor daughter and she letting him do so, he was really a very controlling man. At times he was truly fanatical about that garden. It was ashame for her having to feel so obligated, even when the old man were to die. I do know, in all seriousness, that Kovrin was the sickest of the lot. He definitely had to struggle with these mirages, or halucinations he would have; in my opinion he was indeed mentally ill. That can be a very real thing and I have known people who have dealt with these; luckily they have effective medications nowdays, for people with these disorders of the mind, really caused by chemical inbalances, etc. But too, I think we all suffer from time to time, from little shades of mental illness; call it depression or obsessing on whatever; luckily this is usually just temporary. Who of us can say we are 100% sane/rational all of the time?

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(My oldest brother has convinced me to watch the Star Wars movies, but in return he as to watch twelve hours of something I like - maybe Vanity Fair and Pride and Prejudice. Or maybe even an opera, which he will actually like.)

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Oh no, you might truly hate them. :cold: I find them fun; but of course, that is not my favorite genre, either; I have not seen them for years. Yet still I feel these beat out the newer space films and horror films. Somehow they seemed to have more charm or something - sort of like with Indiana Jones, you are meant to laugh through parts of it and as I said it is an adventure more or less. :eek: get ready for the :alien: 's! :lol:

So your brother will watch an opera and like it? Good! I love to watch opera on DVD's and ballet. Not too sure he will like the Jane Eyre films. You really want a trade-off.;) :lol:

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

It seems I was slightly wrong, it was in the same chapter when they were talking about the wedding, but it was not the actual wedding banquet, but another dinner where he showed up, I went back to check.

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Good, glad that you looked. I thought once he showed up sitting in a chair in their bedroom; that was when she woke and discovered her husband conversing with an empty chair.

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I did not truly think any of them were "insane" so to speak, but I do think their are degrees of both sanity and insanity. They were all a bit abnormal and eccentric, but not really institutional

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Yes, I agree with that and expounded on it in my previous post.

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I liked the Monk LOL

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:lol: He may have been the most sane of the lot!:lol:

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Originally Posted by Janine

Antiquarian, I did not know that about Poe and this site. I guess I did not run into those people, just Dark Muse, who always quotes him in her posts. Maybe I should read some Poe, it might cheer me up, so you would say Dark Muse, right?;)

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LOL yes it is true I do rather love his stories. Though in fact not all of his stories really are terribly dreary. His detective stories for example, really are not that dark and daunting, though one of them starts off with a rather gruesome murder, the story itself is not about that, but rather about solving the case.

And I love A Decent into the Maelstrom, and I do not find anything horribly dark about that story. It is not exzcactly warm and fuzzy, but nothing too distrubing either I do not think

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Originally Posted by Janine

Well, I didn't really mean literally they were 'insane', but they both had their issues I believe. For one, the father seemed to think no one could tend his garden but himself, and maybe his daughter; by projecting this duty onto his poor daughter and she letting him do so, he was really a very controlling man. At times he was truly fanatical about that garden. It was ashame for her having to feel so obligated, even when the old man were to die. I do know, in all seriousness, that Kovrin was the sickest of the lot. He definitely had to struggle with these mirages, or halucinations he would have; in my opinion he was indeed mentally ill. That can be a very real thing and I have known people who have dealt with these; luckily they have effective medications nowdays, for people with these disorders of the mind, really caused by chemical inbalances, etc. But too, I think we all suffer from time to time, from little shades of mental illness; call it depression or obsessing on whatever; luckily this is usually just temporary. Who of us can say we are 100% sane/rational all of the time?

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Though I found Kovrin's "illness" to be quite harmless, and rather he was quite happy. Honestly, I do not think there is anything so dreadful about someone having conversations with an illusionary monk. I do not think it would have ever turned violent or malicious and how the story turned out, he might have been better off if he had been left with his delusions.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Though I found Kovrin's "illness" to be quite harmless, and rather he was quite happy. Honestly, I do not think there is anything so dreadful about someone having conversations with an illusionary monk. I do not think it would have ever turned violent or malicious and how the story turned out, he might have been better off if he had been left with his delusions.

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Dark Muse, if I restrict myself to the story only and the limited amount of knowledge we have about his delusions, visions, then I would tend to agree. His activity in this perimeter of the story and space of time of the story seemed harmless enough, benign. However, we don't know all that might have happened to him, staying on this path of delusionary thinking.

But, if I look at this story in a more realistic light, I tend to think his condition would have worsened with time and he would have been struggling even harder, to keep control of these visions invading his mind. Often, with people who suffer from actual halucinations, they don't do well coping in the so called 'normal' world of reality; also after a time they can't distiquish the world of reality, from the visionary world. It is like trying to live in two worlds at once. It might seem quite harmless, but who is to say these halucinations would always be so, or might they turn evil (within his own mind and imagination) and prompt him to become malicious or even violent at some point?

But the story and what happens within the story is really all we have to judge on, as there are a million what ifs that could go in a 100 different directions if we try and dicuss what would have or could have happend outside of what is given within the story. Loosing his dislussions is ultamtely what ruined him. He was never the same again, and he was quite misserable. By "curing" himself he also surpressed an imporant part of his mind and who he was.

I know I said I would post the first chunk of the text in my next post, but it's two-hundred degrees in the room with my computer. It's only beginning to cool down. My computer is upstairs, and all the heat rises up to that room and gets trapped. I don't want to have to stay too long in this room to write a post, so I'll just respond to what's been said so far. Tomorrow morning--when I'm not sweating through my clothes--I can post the text of the story.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Chekhov wrote several stories about mental illness, but I think this is the earliest. I'm not sure, though. What do you say, Quark?

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While so many of his stories include mentally unsound characters, I don't know how many had such explicit insanity. "On the Road" has a pretty delusional character, and the girl from "Sleepy" certainly loses it at the end. Were they insane, though? They probably were not insane to the extent Kovrin is. "The Black Monk" explores this much more than the others, I think.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I think Kovrin is complex and a "different" kind of Chekhov protagonist because he embraces his mental illness and uses it to validate his own feelings of superiority.

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I'm not sure if Kovrin revels in his insanity or not. I think the Black Monk and the insanity represent something already existing in Kovrin. It's not something separate which he takes pride in. He may take pride in the feelings which the Black Monk embodies, but the Monk himself isn't really what he's proud of. The insanity and the Monk are more like the unfortunate consequences of the feelings he takes pride in, and not the feelings themselves--if that makes sense. That's how I interpret it right now, at least. I'm sure I'll change my mind when we get more into the story.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

First was the fact that I did find the story to have some Poe like elements within it, the reason I said this was for a few reasons. For one thing, the very beginning in which Kovrin is depicted as being a very nervous individual and this aspect of his nervousness does play into the story and comes up more than once, as well Egor is also said to be quite nervous a times.

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Kovrin's character could be right out of a Poe story. His strained nervousness is a particularly Poe-like characteristic. Chekhov, however, forms the story around him a little differently than Poe might. He makes the other characters have a similar--but more benign--form of Kovrin's mental illness. Chekhov tries to implicate more than just Kovrin with his story. Poe, on the other hand, often would have just one character with the problem and then use another character as a foil. The Cask of Amontillado, for example, has the insane, obsessed killer paired with his blithe, unthinking victim. Poe uses contrast where Chekhov doesn't. Chekhov almost normalizes Kovrin's mental instability with his cast of characters. This makes Kovrin's insanity surprising, whereas insanity in Poe's work is creepy. I would say that both Poe and Chekhov use nervous insanity, but they develop it in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

The other thing I said, was that in some ways I found this story to be humorous, which I know sounds rather strange, as well I know the story was intended to be tragic, as well it was, but to be perfectly honest, for one thing I thought all three of them, Kovrin, Egor and Tania were all neurotic in one degree or another, and just the fact that the three of them were living together in the same house, all going off on their own little tangents, Egor constantly fretting about the farm, Tania, always bursting into tears and locking herself in her room while Kovrin was walking around talking to his hallucinogenic monk well I could not help but to find that amusing.

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The tone of the story is light-hearted at times, and the characters are comically flawed. I laughed at parts, too--mostly at the obsessive gardener.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Dark Muse, if I restrict myself to the story only and the limited amount of knowledge we have about his delusions, visions, then I would tend to agree. His activity in this perimeter of the story and space of time of the story seemed harmless enough, benign. However, we don't know all that might have happened to him, staying on this path of delusionary thinking.

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Whether Kovrin's delusion thinking was benign or even helpful is one of the big questions of the story. It definitely costs Kovrin much, but perhaps it's what made him interesting. Maybe he was a genius?

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Originally Posted by Quark

I know I said I would post the first chunk of the text in my next post, but it's two-hundred degrees in the room with my computer. It's only beginning to cool down. My computer is upstairs, and all the heat rises up to that room and gets trapped. I don't want to have to stay too long in this room to write a post, so I'll just respond to what's been said so far. Tomorrow morning--when I'm not sweating through my clothes--I can post the text of the story.

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Although, I am sweltering too, Quark, I decided to post now. I guess I like to suffer.;) I do think you might be exaggerating a bit...200 and you would be keeled over by now!

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While so many of his stories include mentally unsound characters, I don't know how many had such explicit insanity. "On the Road" has a pretty delusional character, and the girl from "Sleepy" certainly loses it at the end. Were they insane, though? They probably were not insane to the extent Kovrin is. "The Black Monk" explores this much more than the others, I think.

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Well, I know you are addressing Antiquarian here but I wanted to say I did not read "On the Road" but I did read "Sleepy" and I think that girl was temporarily derranged and desperate, she had sleep deprivation which actually can cause this type of madness. That was the explainable type and yes, I do agree that Kovrin in the Black Monk is definitely 'certifiably' insane or I would rather refer to his condition as mentally ill. So we are dealing with a story that is much different than the other two.

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I'm not sure if Kovrin revels in his insanity or not. I think the Black Monk and the insanity represent something already existing in Kovrin. It's not something separate which he takes pride in. He may take pride in the feelings which the Black Monk embodies, but the Monk himself isn't really what he's proud of. The insanity and the Monk are more like the unfortunate consequences of the feelings he takes pride in, and not the feelings themselves--if that makes sense. That's how I interpret it right now, at least. I'm sure I'll change my mind when we get more into the story.

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Well, when that was said, I tended to agree with it. I think that mentally ill people can actually enjoy their illness or they can do so to the extend, that it makes them feel special and set appart or unique from others. In this way they do revel in their own illness. They actually, feel elated about it and can have the need to share it with others, and I think this only makes them feel more important. There is a medical term for this - 'delusions of grandeur' . I do think I dedected this in our protaganist more than once.
Many mentally ill people are indeed extraordinarily brillant and often very creative; think of how creative one can be while dreaming at night and how illogical those night dreams can sometimes be. Sometimes when I wake from such a creative dream I do feel this elation in the fact that my mind actually conjured up this amazing creative drream. Now, take those having delusions in the daytime and you can image how fascinating that must be for them and how elating.
I know first hand, from someone close to me who suffers mental illness. Hey, don't look at me; I am creative and have my quirps, definitely eccentric, but so far, I am basically sane/stable I believe, well at least on good days, when they let me out.:lol: But seriously, I do know first hand about these things and have dealt with the problems these states of mind do entail, being in close proximity with mentally ill people; I am talking seriously mentally ill individuals such as Kovrin is in this story.
No doubt he was a much more interesting person, when not medicated. Who wouldn't think seeing Monks flying through the night wouldn't be interesting, or perceiving the tree trunks by the brook as living tendrils, not interesting? The person close to me, had a friend who would periodically call her from California and he would stay on the phone, but a few minutes. He wanted to check on the latest landing of aliens in New Jersey; don't laugh - he was totally serious and convinced of it. He was quite benign and harmless, but he was definitely a space-cadett. I found him very interesting and entertaining. I really believe he did enjoy his lifestyle and his delusions. Actually he was quite happy and lived alone in an appartment. That is all I really know about him and God knows where he is now. He hasn't called for ages. I guess there has not been any alien invasions lately.:alien:

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Kovrin's character could be right out of a Poe story. His strained nervousness is a particularly Poe-like characteristic. Chekhov, however, forms the story around him a little differently than Poe might. He makes the other characters have a similar--but more benign--form of Kovrin's mental illness. Chekhov tries to implicate more than just Kovrin with his story. Poe, on the other hand, often would have just one character with the problem and then use another character as a foil. The Cask of Amontillado, for example, has the insane, obsessed killer paired with his blithe, unthinking victim. Poe uses contrast where Chekhov doesn't. Chekhov almost normalizes Kovrin's mental instability with his cast of characters. This makes Kovrin's insanity surprising, whereas insanity in Poe's work is creepy. I would say that both Poe and Chekhov use nervous insanity, but they develop it in different ways

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That is very interesting and quite inlightening. I see the difference clearly that you are pointing out even though I am not well read on Poe. I need to try some of his short stories. I know my father loved them so. I have a book of his collected works. I guess it is time to get it off my bookshelf and dust it off and read some. Interesting about the idea of the contrast in Poe's stories and the opposite in Chekhov's. I thought myself there was a blur there between the characters and their total stability of mind. Of course I never saw the father and daughter as truly mentally ill but I did not think them entirely normal either. They had their issues, each of them.

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The tone of the story is light-hearted at times, and the characters are comically flawed. I laughed at parts, too--mostly at the obsessive gardener.

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Whether Kovrin's delusion thinking was benign or even helpful is one of the big questions of the story. It definitely costs Kovrin much, but perhaps it's what made him interesting. Maybe he was a genius?

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I think there is a fine line between mental illness and genius. I think may mentally ill persons are indeed near or truly genius'; but, I don't think they all can effectively channel that energy. There are solid medical reasons why this is true. For one thing the brain is overstimulated; mental illness is proven to be a chemical inbalance; there is much being done to improve on treatments, but when this story was written, so little was known about these things or how to truly control them, treat them effectively.

I would say this 'genius' idea particularly, could be applied to this story. As I was reading, I got the sense that we were to sympathise with Kovrin and be more against 'the cure', which, at least to his perception, put him into a catatonic state or one where he was now dull, no longer in touch with his creative self. I do know this can be a problem in real instances of mental illness, and one has to weigh the two. I think exploring this in this story, will be of great interest. To be honest with you, when I first read this story, I felt I was not going to be able to discuss it effectively, if it advocated he totally be left alone and not take any cure, be left to see these illusions as though it would be harmless to him; because I feel strongly that it would be harmful in the long run.

I think the story is open-ended enough now, to come up with our own conclusions. It is a good story, Quark, and it should make for a very interesting discussion.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I would say this 'genius' idea particularly, could be applied to this story. As I was reading, I got the sense that we were to sympathise with Kovrin and be more against 'the cure', which, at least to his perception, put him into a catatonic state or one where he was now dull, no longer in touch with his creative self. I do know this can be a problem in real instances of mental illness, and one has to weigh the two. I think exploring this in this story, will be of great interest. To be honest with you, when I first read this story, I felt I was not going to be able to discuss it effectively, if it advocated he totally be left alone and not take any cure, be left to see these illusions as though it would be harmless to him; because I feel strongly that it would be harmful in the long run.

I think the story is open-ended enough now, to come up with our own conclusions. It is a good story, Quark, and it should make for a very interesting discussion.

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Personally I think he should have been left alone and not subjected to the "cure" as I think it killed an imporant and sigificant part of who he was. That is one of the probelems with treatment, though there are people that want it or need it, I really do not think it would be for everyone. It rewires the way a person precivies the world, and if a person is a "genuis" such as Kovrin, or a creative person, well your preception of the world is such an imporant part of who you are.

That is way I persoanlly refuse to submit to any form of treatment, I do not trust anyone else tweeking with my head and chagning how I see things. I cannot afford that risk.

Though hallucanations/dillusions, is not one of the things of which I am afflicted with, I could relate to Kovrin in someways, and felt for him, what he went through when he was "cured"

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Personally I think he should have been left alone and not subjected to the "cure" as I think it killed an imporant and sigificant part of who he was. That is one of the probelems with treatment, though there are people that want it or need it, I really do not think it would be for everyone. It rewires the way a person precivies the world, and if a person is a "genuis" such as Kovrin, or a creative person, well your preception of the world is such an imporant part of who you are.

That is way I persoanlly refuse to submit to any form of treatment, I do not trust anyone else tweeking with my head and chagning how I see things. I cannot afford that risk.

Though hallucanations/dillusions, is not one of the things of which I am afflicted with, I could relate to Kovrin in someways, and felt for him, what he went through when he was "cured"

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Dark Muse, unless you have seen or lived with someone who saw these imaginary people or illusions you would not be able to fully understand this and how important it is, really vital for them to seek help. I have been subjected to this first hand, for a very long time and believe me I do know. Lives can truly be ruined when medications are ignored, or not administered and the person is left far out of reach of true reality. Someone very close to me suffers from these 'delusions of grandeur' and it is not easy to deal with daily, not for the person or the people who are involved with this person. I don't want to get too personal here, but really people who have delusions like Korvin, need to have some kind of treatment. If they lived in a vacumn that would be different but really they do live and have to function in the real world, not the world of total fantasy their minds invent for them to exist in.

I can further answer this in Antiquarian's post reply next.

First off I think I know what all of us suffer from: Insomnia! ;)

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

"An Official Duty" is one of Chekhov's late stories dealing with mental illness, but it dealt with it in a totally different manner.

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That is interesting. Is the story long? I will have to look into it after we finish discussing this one; I would not want to mix the two up.

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Kovrin was suffering from megalomania, or as Janine said, "delusions of grandeur." The fact that Kovrin enjoys his mental illness is just more proof of how ill he is. Healthy people don't strive to remain ill to feed their ego, they try to get well.

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That is so true and so insightful on your part, Antiquarian. I am glad you had this information. It is putting my own thoughts into words, that I had not heard of before. I don't think I was aware of the term megalomania. When I did refer to 'delusions of grandeur', often this state is characteristic of these people who experience this elated enhanced feeling, believing they can conquer the world so to speak. They can do anything, with no restrictions at all; they often do not use common sense and it leads them to a lot of poor decisions, which can ultimately ruin lives, not just their own, but others that love them or are close to them. They might believe one week, that they are capable of flight school, another week they could handle going to Harvard, another week sail around the world. There delusions change all the time and usually only worsen without treatment, and they have no rhyme or reason...they are usually very random thoughts. And these things only feed their inflated egos.

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Kovrin says, "I was going mad. I had megalomania; but I was cheerful, confident, and even happy; I was interesting and original." People shouldn't need mental illness and delusions in order to achieve those things. I'm not saying I didn't like Kovrin, I did, but he was definitely ill and in need of treatment. At one point he says he's the "incarnation of the blessing of God." That is true megalomania.

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This is true of individuals suffering this and Chekhov has captured this and expressed it so well. He is demonstrating just how this works in the mind of a person who is mad. They do know they are mad and they celebrate it. Because they do suffer this megalomania, they all do think they are genius and extraordinary individuals. It is the delusions that made this possible not the fact they truly are genius'.

My family actually knew this woman, who thought she was the reincarnation of the female (?) Jesus Christ. Now that is way out of the range of any logic. She stopped taking her medications; she spend money like crazy, without any limitations, she had wrecked her appartment, broke all her things, all because she could not function in the real world and her voices were telling her to do these things; she was tormented; it was tragic. She knew she was mentally ill, and I think she most certainly enjoyed the delusions she had, thus she stopped her medications and eventually, she had to give up her own place, which she loved and go to into a group home, it was tragic; she even killed her beloved cat accidently. People get totally out of control; those who are in need of these drugs to survive and live a relatively normal existence. It can be a very sad thing to see happen to someone.

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I don't think Chekhov necessarily meant for us to feel empathy for Kovrin. One of Chekhov's hallmarks is his total objectivity.

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I agree with that assertion, concerning Chekhov and what he would have intended us to feel in this story. I felt he was being objective.

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I think the line between mental illness and physical illness as well as mental illness and genius has been deliberately blurred in this story, they are interwoven so skilfully and subtly. Kovrin may well have been a genius. Then again, he might not have been. Chekhov really doesn't give us any hint about that and I really didn't think it was necessary to the story.

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That is true, Antiquarian, and actually, I don't see any signs, that he actually was a genius; we only can go by, what he has to reveal to us, about his intelligence. I guess now and then the wife mentions how smart he is, but I think when Quark posts some text, we can take a closer look at this point. I was not sure myself, if Kovrin was truly a genius or of ordinary intelligence, simply believing he was a genius, from what the monk vision told him to believe about himself.

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I think the black monk can be interpreted in two ways, but I'll save that for later. I think it would be jumping ahead too much to talk about it now, though it's Quark's call, of course.

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Yes, let's wait for Quark now. He will freak out, if he sees pages of posts, before he even posted the first segment of text. I can understand that. It is hard to catch up sometimes.