The Manufacture of Mozart

Yanni,

In answer to the question of whether Cocchi was an occultist your answer (as a student of Cocchi and his life) is that he, 'was much more than that'. Is it difficult for you to understand this reply of yours is, shall we say, a classic example of obscurantism ?

So please allow me ask it another way. Is it true Cocchi was an inducted member of various secret societies whose members existed across the lands where Cocchi travelled, all of whom were bound by oaths, whose teachings and whose beliefs were not accessible to ordinary members of the public, and which connected him, Cocchi, to a network of similarly inducted people ? Many of whose members were of direct and indirect influence and importance in his career ?

As to whether Cocchi was 'highly talented, intelligent, extremely hard working, perfectly balanced, wonderfully disciplined' etc. is, you will surely agree, another matter.

Will you please tell us some details of Cocchi's occultism and of the societies and beliefs to which he subscribed ? If you know such things, of course. I mean, over 200 years later these may be a questions you are happy to answer frankly and honestly. So when you say, 'he was much more than that' this is, you may agree, almost meaningless.

Now, regarding the other contents of your post, on 'Mozart's 7 great operas' which, you say, are 'his' brilliant contribution to music theatre and world culture' and, which you also say, 'are unequalled in their depth of human characterisation and musical expression' you join the ranks of the credulous in writing as you do - (though I doubt whether the words are of your own invention) -

'Through happy coincidence, all 7 opera scores have survived almost complete in Mozart's manuscript. The Packard Humanities Institute (PHI, Los Altos, Calif) has embarked on producing a facsimile edition of the 7 autograph scores. Mozart scholars, libraries and of course all lovers of Mozart's stage works now have the opportunity of aquiring these priceless manuscripts in flawless reproductions. At the same time, all risks about preserving Mozart’s legacy for the world of music are taken care of. The Packard Humanities Institute (PHI) charitable foundation, known for its philanthropic programmes in the arts and sciences, has forged an ideal cooperation for the Mozart project. Under the scholarly direction of an editorial board (Ulrich Konrad, David Packard,Wolfgang Rehm, Christoph Wolff; General editor Dietrich Berke) the International Mozarteum Foundation Salzburg and the libraries where Mozart’s manuscripts are held are working together with the Packard Humanities Institute.The production of the volumes is exquisite for the digitalization of the manuscripts has been undertaken using the latest technology, which allows for an astounding level of authenticity and precision in detail. The printing follows the uncompromisingly high standards demanded by the edition’.

Such is your view, Yanni, and such (to be fair) is of course the view of the Packard Humanities Institute, the Mozarteum in Salzburg, the Mozart industry, and (not surprisingly) the music loving consumers of this music. Since they have no reason to suspect differently.

But, since you’ve posted this glowing advertisement for Mozart’s 7 operatic scores (and since I’ve taken the trouble to repeat your post here) and since I am aware of their existence may I ask you one or two questions on these Mozart ‘autograph’ scores ? I promise not to confuse you with many, many questions. In fact, in deference to your expertise, I will ask you only one or two simple ones. Is that OK ?

You see, Yanni, I am aware that I am writing to a student of the life and career of Cocchi. I assume you have not studied this subject of the autograph scores of Mozart’s 7 operas. I assume too that you are impressed by them being reproduced and sold in ‘authenticity and precision’. And I assume, Yanni, this advertisement which you have brought to our attention has persuaded you.

Fine. I will go easy on you. I promise I will burden you with no hard questions. You, Yanni, will have no difficulty in answering only three questions from me. These so simple I have confidence you will be able to reply to them without difficulty. And here they are -

1. Yanni, of these 7 Mozart operatic autographs, would you object if I focus on only one of them ? Just for the sake of discussing them, their reproduction and their commercial sale generally ? Yes or No ?

2. If the answer is yes may I choose for the sake of illustration the autograph of ‘The Marriage of Figaro’ (‘Le Nozze di Figaro’) ? One of these 7. This autograph, as you have just said, is being sold today in a wonderfully accurate edition, etc. Have you any objection to me choosing Figaro as one of these 7 ? Yes or No ?

3. Yanni, this autograph now being sold commercially in wonderful detail of Mozart’s opera ‘The Marriage of Figaro’. You may be aware the premiere of that famous opera was (so all the textbooks say) 1st May 1786 in Vienna. Will you please tell us whether this 'Figaro' operatic autograph now being sold in high precision edition existed then, at the time of its Vienna premiere ? A simple yes or no will be enough to start the ball rolling.

Regards (and without frivolity, obscurantism, any artificial flavouring or colouring, and free from any genetically modified contents) - LOL !

Robert

Is that so?

Accepting he was indeed a member of many "secret societies", I then proceeded to explain at length in my previous post that he was as well a top diplomat, serving France as a secret agent and that he employed his "occultism" in this capacity.

You chose to ignore it (as you did other parts of my post concerning your "input" or lack of) to then comment on the quote on Mozart's operas in small print taken from http://www.mozart.gr/PHI_Mozart_eng as if I had something to do with it.

Well, I did not and the only reason I posted it as a farewell gift, was to have your own "musicologist's" comments on the piece, originating from a greek site, a totally false piece, in my opinion.

We agreed, from the beginning of this thread, that Mozart was manufactured, remember?

And it was me who insisted we focus on "opera" with you looking the other way, remember that too?

You selected to "pass" once again and to return the last package to the sender, labelling your own intent furthermore as without frivolity, obscurantism, any artificial flavouring or colouring, and free from any genetically modified contents.

Well, your own actions dispute you....AGAIN!

A true climax of "fairness", hah-hah!

(The floor is yours whenever you are ready).

Cheers.

Yanni,

I am not asking you to 'accept' anything. But I am asking you once more, as an honest student of Cocchi, to provide if you will some details of the occultism with which Cocchi was associated. If you have details, that is. But, since you even choose to italicise the term 'secret societies' (which implies this term is not one to which you subcribe to in respect of Cocchi) will you edit your post and describe them instead as 'public societies' ? Or shall we end this obscurantism and finally share what we know ?

Thank you for your farewell gift. Time will tell whether you will kindly answer my 3 easy questions on the 'autograph' score of 'Figaro' - one of the 7 'Mozart' scores which are (as you have correctly noted) being advertised and commercially sold as such.

The problem is (and it seems you are not aware of it) this 'Figaro' score and the 6 other operatic 'autographs' are really NOT Mozart 'autographs'. Indeed, the proofs of this are able to be shown. Which I offer to do here if you wish to discuss the subject. I was (and still am) hopeful of you answering my 3 simple questions in your reply. But, if not, thank you for your parting gift and please accept mine. My offer to discuss that subject. Subject, of course, to receiving your reply to these 3 questions.


Regards

BWV 191/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jouo1gndiLs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Is that so?

Accepting he was indeed a member of many "secret societies", I then proceeded to explain at length in my previous post that he was as well a top diplomat, serving France as a secret agent and that he employed his "occultism" in this capacity.

You chose to ignore it (as you did other parts concerning your "input" or lack of) to then comment on the quote on Mozart's operas in small print taken from http://www.mozart.gr/PHI_Mozart_eng as if I had something to do with it.

Well, I did not and the only reason I posted it as a farewell gift, was to have your own "musicologist's" comments on the piece, originating from a greek site, a totally false piece, in my opinion.

You selected to "pass" and to return the package to the sender, labelling your own intent furthermore as without frivolity, obscurantism, any artificial flavouring or colouring, and free from any genetically modified contents.

Well, your own actions dispute you, once again!

A true climax of "fairness", hah-hah!

Cheers.

---

I have covered, up to a point, Cocchi's "occultism" in this thread already, have also labelled "secret societies" and their usefullness in governance at the time as well and, should you wish to read more on the subject, my thread on Poe contains many more details for anyone interested.

Now you!

Yes, Yanni, you have 'covered' Cocchi's occultism to the point of obscurantism. I will ask you no more of it.

And, as for a reply to my three easy questions on the autograph of 'Figaro', do you think I should ask no more of them also ?

:willy_nilly:

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

I have covered, up to a point, Cocchi's "occultism" in this thread already, have also labelled "secret societies" and their usefullness in governance at the time as well and, should you wish to read more on the subject, my thread on Poe contains many more details for anyone interested.

Now you!

---

Stop wasting your GM potatoes (you never did read my "Poe decoded" thread) and by all means dispute the "Seven operas by Mozart".

Cheers.

Fortunately I don't use GM potatoes ! But we still have this year to get some real seeds, right ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94d-K...om=PL&index=19


As for the 'autograph' scores of 7 operas of Mozart (a subject inspired by your gift of information on their commercial publication) I will resist the temptation of discussing them here unless/until I have evidence of the interest of a certain Yanni.

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Stop wasting your GM potatoes (you never did read my "Poe decoded" thread) and by all means dispute the "Seven operas by Mozart".

Cheers.

---

Your resistance to the powers of evil is legendary already.:leaving:

Thank you Yanni. Your resistance to answering straight questions is becoming even more legendary !

But, as for the first, the truth is all power worthy of our attention is an antidote to its counterfeits.

:blush2:

"Fair" enough!
:leaving:

Many thanks

:leaving:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

"Fair" enough!
:leaving:

---

Sergi Prokofiev
Piano Concerto 3
3rd Movement
Live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V030G...eature=related

The famous french chess player and opera composer, a friend of "Rousseau" ,"Philidor", has just been included in the list of Gioachino Cocchi aliases.

Philidor's London presences confirm

a)That "Chastellux" travelled to London from USA the summer of 1782 (to return there again at fall)
b)That the "comte de Saint Germain" was very well connected to the british upper class as from 1777, including Lord Shelbourne* (irish prime minister of Britain as from 1782).
c)That before finally settling in Russia, Cocchi arranged "Philidor's London death" in 1795.

*See list of contributors to his chess periodical at "Chess History and Reminiscences by Henry Edward Bird"

Cheers.

Ah, yes, Yanni !

Lord Shelbourne. With his links to the British East India Company, to the Gordon Riots. To Jacobinism and even to the smooth transition period of 'Mozart's genius'. Not to mention their involvement in controlling the later stages of the French Revolution.

You have to hand it to those guys. In place of fugue they gave us candyfloss.

Regards

BWV 543/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FboiW...eature=related

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

The famous french chess player and opera composer, a friend of "Rousseau" ,"Philidor", has just been included in the list of Gioachino Cocchi aliases.

Philidor's London presences confirm

a)That "Chastellux" travelled to London from USA the summer of 1782 (to return there again at fall)
b)That the "comte de Saint Germain" was very well connected to the british upper class as from 1777, including Lord Shelbourne* (irish prime minister of Britain as from 1782).
c)That before finally settling in Russia, Cocchi arranged "Philidor's London death" in 1795.

*See list of contributors to his chess periodical at "Chess History and Reminiscences by Henry Edward Bird"

Cheers.

---

The Gordon riots of 1778-1780 were against Roman Catholics in general and the British-Austria alliance (promoted by hardliners who were against American Independence) in particular

Cotton candy was invented in 1897.

"fugue" originates from grk φυγή ie getaway, escape.

"Keep walking"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYvk...eature=related

Well, the Gordon Riots (1778-1780) were acts of violence that were 'stage managed' by the occultists of the British East India Company in London to coincide with similar events in France whose influence (through fraternities etc), by this time, had become enormous within the government of that time. (The end result of this Venetian import of occultism and the mercantile formation of the British Empire). They were what we might call an early 'false flag operation'. Which is why I wrote as I did. The 'rioters' were imported into London from elsewhere. By them. A fact not refered to in textbooks these days, of course ! Which is why I refered to Shelburne. In point of fact religious toleration was a great feature of English society for centuries and there was never a time when Roman Catholics could not be Roman Catholics in England. The only issue that prevented them sitting in the British government was if they refused to acknowledge the lawful government of Britain and its laws in preference to their obedience to the Bishop of Rome and his dogmas. (This was, you may remember, the same papacy who had taken the step of excommunicating ALL British people at the time of Elizabeth 1st. Who had even excommunicated her. Who had ordered all British Catholics to disobey the laws of England. In writing). The same papacy who had at that time ordered all British people to ignore the laws of England and the leadership of the British state. Just before the Spanish Armada of 1588). An excommunication which was never reversed. Which is why the 'Act of Settlement' was made at Parliament - which makes it clear that leaders of government in Britain must give their first allegiance to the government of our nation and its laws and not to a foreign power. A fair and reasonable requirement, you surely agree ? But it was one which Roman Catholics continued to reject up until the 'Act of Settlement' and beyond. Which was partly the reason for arranging these stage-managed 'Gordon Riots'. So much for Cocchi and Shelburne etc. Yes ? For the truth of these things (the Gordon Riots and their 'stage management' here, for example) -

http://american_almanac.tripod.com/bentham.htm

As for 'candy floss' (also known as 'cotton candy') it's very ancient -In ancient Persia, 'Pashmak', and known in Turkey as 'Pişmaniye'.

I smile at your use of 'Fugue' (the DNA of musical composition) but of course happily surrender to your Greek meanings. To 'escape' from the music industry is no bad thing !

Speaking of which - for your delicate ears, Yanni - this Bach/Vivaldi concerto -

BWV 1065

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sdaV...4691B0&index=1

Still walking !

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

The Gordon riots of 1778-1780 were against Roman Catholics in general and the British-Austria alliance (promoted by hardliners who were against American Independence) in particular

Cotton candy was invented in 1897.

"fugue" originates from grk φυγή ie getaway, escape.

"Keep walking"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyYvk...eature=related

---

"So much for Cocchi and Shelburne etc. Yes ? For the truth of these things (the Gordon Riots and their 'stage management' here, for example) - "

If you r e a l l y want an answer to that one, I suggest(for the nth time) you ask your italian associates (recollet occultists, I imagine) on Cocchi's 1778 whereabouts.

All sources (but me), Grove included, want him in Naples at the time, composing church music.

Escaping from the music industry?

A parallel comes to mind of those wonderfully obedient Titanic violinists accompanying with their fugues people perishing in the black sea, patiently waiting their turn.

Cheers.

Yes Yanni,

You refered to Shelburne and I've explained (and shown) the nature of Shelburne's career. And of the East India Company. Which you ignore. Although you can read the article for yourself. Which I recommend since Cocchi, Rousseau and Voltaire were all part of the same network. The Gordon Riots were another attempt to show, clearly, the role of the mercantile empire of the occultists, stage managing the political world of the late 18th century. Since you may have missed reading about this here it is again - (it may help put the career of your Cocchi into better focus) -

http://american_almanac.tripod.com/bentham.htm

By this time also, King George III had declared himself wholly subservient to the Shelburne-led East India Company faction--the Venetian Party.

and also -

The Jacobin insurrection in Paris during 1791-93 was a replay on grander scale of the earlier Shelburne-instigated Gordon Riots, down to the storming of the Bastille prison and the unleashing of the criminals.

Not forgetting -

At the very moment of his taking up with Bentham, Lord Shelburne was in the process of launching his most daring political intrigues.
In June 1780, weary of the failed prosecution of the war in North America, and convinced that the ministry of Lord George North would bring eternal ruin to his dreams of permanent empire, Lord Shelburne, through the East India Company and its allied Baring Bank, bankrolled a Jacobin mob to descend upon London, ostensibly in protest over the granting of Irish reforms. The so-called Irish reforms amounted to little more than forced conscription of Irishmen into the British Army to fight in North America--a move Shelburne hoped would also defeat the pro-American republican movement inside Ireland that had nearly launched its own revolt against Britain in 1779.

Led by Lord George Gordon, the Protestant rabble stormed Westminster, sending parliamentarians and lords alike down flights of stairs, out windows, and to the hospitals. For eight days, London was ransacked, culminating in the storming of the Newgate Prison and the freeing of all the prisoners, who joined in the assault on the Parliament building.

Lord Shelburne, as head of the interior committee of the House of Lords, personally ensured the maximum terror by delaying the reading of the Riot Act (which would have called out the Home Guard) until violence had spread to every corner of the city. When the flames subsided, the ministry of Lord North was in ashes as well. North resigned as prime minister, and within months, Shelburne was himself in the new Rockingham cabinet as foreign secretary for the Northern District, subsuming the North American colonies. From that post, he would be the principal negotiator in Paris across the table from Benjamin Franklin.


As for Titanic violinists 'playing fugues', no, they did not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

"So much for Cocchi and Shelburne etc. Yes ? For the truth of these things (the Gordon Riots and their 'stage management' here, for example) - "

If you r e a l l y want an answer to that one, I suggest(for the nth time) you ask your italian associates (recollet occultists, I imagine) on Cocchi's 1778 whereabouts.

All sources (but me), Grove included, want him in Naples at the time, composing church music.

Escaping from the music industry?

A parallel comes to mind of those wonderfully obedient Titanic violinists accompanying with their fugues people perishing in the black sea, patiently waiting their turn.

Cheers.

---

Yanni,

I do not know Cocchi's whereabouts in 1778 although I know for sure from around early 1772 he was based again in Venice. He did not, as has been alleged, resume his post at the Incurabili. That was now held by the composer Galuppi until the hospital’s reorganization in 1776, when the musical staff was dismissed. The choir, however, continued its concerts, and Cocchi is known to have still written for it as late as 1784. It is possible (I suggest) he visited Paris and England in early 1778 (visiting London, Bath and several estates in England that year) although I base this opinion only on the fact that during that year in England there were several important musical events involving others of his network in England.

Rgds

In other words, Robert, your "Venetian occultists" at the time were staging a counterattack against your previous "jesuit culprits", making "your" Britain a battling ground where those "blame for all" foreigners were settling their disputes, huh?

Make up your mind, will you?

BTW Cocchi was serving as war minister of France 1776-1778!

Cheers!

I think you are a little confused. I do not subsribe to your Cocchi alias theory. But you seem determined to impose it on me all the same.

I am saying Goacchino Cocchi (1712-1796) who died in Venice in 1796, may have been in Paris and in England in the year you are asking about, 1778. But you may believe as you like, of course.

Here are details of the sale of a Gainsborough painting made of Tenducci. With some notes of the kind of musical contacts G. Cocchi would have had in England during the time he was there. (Cocchi is refered to here as you see).

As for your misunderstanding on the events of this period, it is simple to understand we are dealing here not with one power (The Holy Roman Empire) but two, the second being the occultist Venetian fraternities which had been transplanted into England at the time of Henry 8th (as previously said) and which, by the 18th century, through the growing British mercantile empire, took over the nation. By means of controlling the East India Company and, in Holland, through the Dutch East India Company) as a way to expand their influence internationally. This Venetian 'invasion' of England began from the time when the Jesuit Order were first created. Supported by Venice. Since the Jesuit support of occultism is plain in many, many ways. As in, for example, the Illuminatists, the Rosicrucians, the Freemasons etc. And successfully infiltrating the British government and society through these occultist fraternities. By the time of Cocchi and Mozart this occultism had become deeply rooted in England and across most of Europe. Bypassing the old theological emnities between Catholics and Protestants. But the aim of these occultists was the same. A continuing counter-reformation. Now waged in the secular sense. Whose aim was ultimately to restore to the control of Rome their rule over the nations. The 'Gordon Riots' in England were an example of 'divide and rule'. Managed by Shelburne and others. As said.

England could not be conquered by theology. It was, however, conquered through the greed of its merchant classes and its ruling aristocracy. Which is how the legal system of England (a newly invented system known as 'English Common Law') was slowly invented and imposed on its colonies as their empire expanded. That hybrid legal system which was now imposed on England and the legal industry and elsewhere was really a mixture of Admiralty Law, canon law, Roman civil law, and many other things. Which slowly bypassed the real law of England, the Common Law. And still does today.

The British Empire thus became an occultist centre. With the City of London, its banking system, its Freemasonry (this widely exported from the early 18th century) and its government and intelligence services now inflitrated by these same occultists. Including organisations such as the Royal Society etc. Creating an established class which supports and depends on the monarchy to this day. Since all monarchies of England had, from the time of the Norman Invasion of 1066, pledged their allegiance and that of their successors to the Papacy. Indeed, the British monarchy is the product of the papacy. This unwelcome fact is still true today. Explaining the rise of corporate government, of feudalism, and of empires ever since.

http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...G1ACEWCENUK313

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

In other words, Robert, your "Venetian occultists" at the time were staging a counterattack against your previous "jesuit culprits", making "your" Britain a battling ground where those "blame for all" foreigners were settling their disputes, huh?

Make up your mind, will you?

BTW Cocchi was serving as war minister of France 1776-1778!

Cheers!

---

Here are some musical publications of G. Cocchi at the British Library from that decade (1770-1780), published in London -

1. 'Duettini 12 per canto'. G. Cocchi
London : Printed by Welcker, [c. 1770].

2. Miller, Edward, 1735-1807 - 'Institutes of Music, or easy Instructions for the Harpsichord' ... To which are added ... Lessons for Practice, etc.
Published in London : Longman and Broderip, [1771]
Containing compositions by Miller, Rameau, Corelli, Handel, Stamitz, Agrell, Van Maldere, Lully, Avison, Burton, Edelmann, Dietz, Paradies, Just, Arne, [J. C.] Bach, Vanhall, Cocchi, Shroeter, Schobert and the King of Prussia.

3. 'Le Delizie dell’Opere'. Being a Collection of all the Favourite Songs in Score, collected from the Operas compos’d by Bach, Perez, Cocchi, Ciampi, Jomelli, Giardini, Galuppi, Vinci, Pergolesi, Leo, Lampugnani, Terradellas, Hasse, Porpora, C. St Germain, Pescetti, Veracini, Bononcini.
Publisher/year London : Printed for I. Walsh, [1776]

4. 'The Maid of the Mill' - for the Voice, Harpsichord, or Violin. [The words by I. Bickerstaffe.] London : R. Bremner, [1770?] - The composers named in this pasticcio are: the Earl of Kelly, Rinaldo di Capua, Abos, the Elector of Saxony, Ciampi, Laschi and Philidor, Picini, Gallupi, Pergolese, Monsignier, Vinci, Scarlatti, Arnold, Cocchi, Bach, Hasse, Duny, Giardini, Jomelli and Martini.

You will surely agree from these publications that even during the 1770's G. Cocchi, composer, had association with the musical scene in London. (As he had for decades before this).

Rgds

"I do not know Cocchi's whereabouts in 1778 although I know for sure from around early 1772 he was based again in Venice."

Assuming your "certainty" is based on your own- or your silent italian associates- research , do supply evidence of Cocchi's continuous Napoli presence after 1772 by all means!

Personaly I don't have a single trustworthy reference documenting the presence of Cocchi or any of his aliases in Napoli, 1772.

Cheers.

Yanni,

I might also add the publication by G. Cocchi, in London, of 6 Quintets also published, c1780.

In answer to your question of proof that Cocchi was based in Venice from the time he returned there from Venice (1772), I have the following -

About 1772 Cocchi, now well off, returned to Venice. He did not (as already said) resume his musical post at the Incurabili. That was now held by Galuppi until that hospital’s reorganization in 1776, when the musical staff were dismissed. The choir, however, continued its concerts, and Cocchi still wrote for it in 1784. He is said by Piero Wiess (who wrote the article on Cocchi for the 'Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians') to have composed a Requiem Mass for his wife in 1786 as requested in her will, and there is a manuscript 'Dixit Dominus' (A-Wn 19084) dated 1788. An inscription marks the place in the church of S Giovanni Grisostomo in Venice where he and his wife are buried, close to the theatre where he made his Venetian début.

And I've suggested he travelled after returning to Venice in 1772. But, for sure, from that time onwards, (1772) his musical works (or, works attributed to him) are far fewer. There is no new opera, for example. Depite this, during the 1770's his influence in England as a composer was still real as we see from those London publications.

This is the same G. Cocchi whom Leopold and Wolfgang Mozart met on their stay in London in 1764/5.


//

Your "evidence" compares to Rousseau's own Confessions, hah-hah!

Any music historian or musicologist who cares to examine Cocchi's lame "biography" (Grove, huh?) or timetable of works can but wonder why and how this hugely productive (his repertorio a mystery by itself) composer suddenly stopped producing operas in 1762(he had two staged in London 1762, not 1772 as you write) to withdraw in silence in Naples (almost simultaneously to Gluck's rising "reformist" star eversince).

BTW Philidor (Rousseau's associate and/or copyist!!!) appears in London 1772 and you do have evidence of his permanent settlement there , don't you?

My respect to the science of musicology is growing by the minute!

Cheers!

Yanni,

Unless you have evidence to the contrary isn't it worth accepting what we have ?

As far as Cocchi is concerned, you may be interested to know of the career of another composer of that same name. Probably an ancestor of G. Cocchi and related in a number of ways to the circle that was around Mozart in the century later.

Claudio Cocchi (b. late 16th century in Genoa, d. after 1631). Who was a Franciscan who worked in 3 countries during a short space of time. In 1626 he became (and this is where it gets interesting) Chaplain and Kapellmeister to Cardinal Franz Dietrichstein, Bishop of Olomouc and Governor of Moravia. A patron of Italian style music. He was also employed at Trieste Cathedral and superintedant of the monastery there. His masses were published at Venice. And in Milan.

Mozart and his father visited and stayed in this same town of Olomouc (1767) when he was a boy of 11 (almost 12) although, in fact, the official story of his visit was he was escaping from an epidemic in Vienna. They stayed for weeks in this area including Brno. Olomouc was a part of the musical/cultural network into which Mozart's career was invented. This I will show in some detail in the book. But of course, demonstrating his 'genius' there, of course !!! (LOL).

It seems to me your interest in Cocchi should include the life of Claudio Cocchi, whose employment, whose role in music, is worthy of your attention. As for linking G. Cocchi with Gluck etc, and your aliases of various others, this too is interesting but it really lacks any firm evidence. So I will continue to believe in G. Cocchi, composer, and in the earlier Claudio Cocchi. And perhaps you can discover if these two musicians were of the same family. Which I think is very probable. Even consisting of the fact they both had links with Venice.

I don't know if I can help further in Cocchi from a Mozart point of view, except to hope you will acknowledge G. Cocchi, composer, was based for years in England, and was there at the time of Mozart's arrival, was also closely associated with the Venetian occultism and its fraternities which were then so popular within many branches of the English aristocracy.

And since you yourself are talking of Shelburne (himself associated with the British East India Company) we keep coming back to the fact that the British Empire were deeply involved in the art and culture of that century and beyond through these fraternities.

Philidor may be more interesting for your thesis.

Regards

Bishop Maximilian Reichsgraf von Hamilton (1761 – 1776). Of Olomouc. Bishop of Olomouc at the time of Mozart’s visit there in 1767, you understand ? The place where, a century earlier, Sig. Cocchi had been Kapellmeister. That name, Hamilton, is not especially Bohemian, or German, is it ?

And not forgetting, of course, Sir William Hamilton (1730-1803) who entertained the boy Mozart and his father during their Italian visit, to Naples, at the time he, Hamilton, was British Ambassador there. Sheer coincidence, of course ! Why, the English 'composition pupil' of Mozart in Vienna would confirm this ! Mr Attwood (whose own family were of course, aristocrats dating back to the papally approved invasion of England in 1066). Just a coincidence, of course.

To say nothing of the British Ambassador to Vienna during Mozart’s final decade. Sir Robert Murray Keith (1730-1795)

The career of Mozart, as said, involved the British Empire. Who were deeply associated (through the fraternities and their huge trading empire) with events in European culture and music. The later Cocchi 'befriending' the Mozart's in London. (Because G. Cocchi was already on Leopold Mozart's list of people to see in London).

As Mozart said himself, 'I am an arch-Englishman'. Which may partly explain the donation to the British Library of 'Mozart's musical catalogue' there. (That is, the list of 'his' works begun in 1784 up to 1791).

LOL !

"What we have" is a series of myths covering the true creation of the current "system" with "Rousseau" (and his "corner cutting" philosophy) holding hands with "Le comte de Saint Germain" and all other aliases* of Cocchi in their center and everybody else covering up in harmony eversince.

"What we have" is my many unanswered letters to various italian and french "sources" (I would add "british" and "dutch" as well but they did answer back, only to stop corresponding later on realising the size of "THE story") and my subsequent and direct online reference and finger pointing at various "Cocchi-Cochin" names, around the world, equally unanswered as well, their descendants included.

"What we have" is NOTHING AT ALL or rather a "manufactured truth" much larger than "midget" Mozart on whom you select to focus, to isolate and protect, thus sanitizing the rest of the "big lie" to be then administered along with your convenient "hang it on the dearly departed" theories.

I need no further evidence, my well documented "theory" has already solved your "puzzle" to the letter (including Mozart's "Nissen" alias" AND his "cooperation"-he was faking it to cover Saint Germain/Bache- starting 1784 as below) and it really makes no difference to me if you dispute it to perpetuate your unfinished "poem" to eternity. (There are two "pillars" supporting western culture, remember?)

It's your own deliberate choice!

Claudio Cocchi and his links to both Genoa and Brno btw is indeed an interesting bit of info that fits the Cocchi huge family tree very nicely. (It confirms in fact the "Cocchi" roots of an italian genealogist friend from Livorno-with Brno ancestors of a similar family name- with whom I exchanged some emails last year on his initiative. He asked me for more info on my "greek" data for his own family tree but on second thoughts decided to stop corresponding later on).

Friar Cocchi's "Stilo moderno" and biography (http://kosiv.info/ed/grove/Entries/S06013.htm) links him to "Giulio Caccini's" Novella Musica and to "Concino Concini's" star- disappearing at the time but leaving a long tail behind- links him also to Giorgio "Magnifico" Cochini, the Dorias and Lepanto**, thus reconfirming a very basic part of my "theory" as well.

My regards to professors Tromboni, Canoni and Baloni for their valuable contribution to the science of Musicology as forcibly applied on "italian opera".


Cheers.


*Add "Giacomo Casanova" to the list btw: His own "biography"-a very reputable source indeed- talents and travels fit my hero like a glove!
** See post 69 at http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=15023&page=5

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

Unless you have evidence to the contrary isn't it worth accepting what we have ?

As far as Cocchi is concerned, you may be interested to know of the career of another composer of that same name. Probably an ancestor of G. Cocchi and related in a number of ways to the circle that was around Mozart in the century later.

Claudio Cocchi (b. late 16th century in Genoa, d. after 1631). Who was a Franciscan who worked in 3 countries during a short space of time. In 1626 he became (and this is where it gets interesting) Chaplain and Kapellmeister to Cardinal Franz Dietrichstein, Bishop of Olomouc and Governor of Moravia. A patron of Italian style music. He was also employed at Trieste Cathedral and superintedant of the monastery there. His masses were published at Venice. And in Milan.

Mozart and his father visited and stayed in this same town of Olomouc (1767) when he was a boy of 11 (almost 12) although, in fact, the official story of his visit was he was escaping from an epidemic in Vienna. They stayed for weeks in this area including Brno. Olomouc was a part of the musical/cultural network into which Mozart's career was invented. This I will show in some detail in the book. But of course, demonstrating his 'genius' there, of course !!! (LOL).

It seems to me your interest in Cocchi should include the life of Claudio Cocchi, whose employment, whose role in music, is worthy of your attention. As for linking G. Cocchi with Gluck etc, and your aliases of various others, this too is interesting but it really lacks any firm evidence. So I will continue to believe in G. Cocchi, composer, and in the earlier Claudio Cocchi. And perhaps you can discover if these two musicians were of the same family. Which I think is very probable. Even consisting of the fact they both had links with Venice.

I don't know if I can help further in Cocchi from a Mozart point of view, except to hope you will acknowledge G. Cocchi, composer, was based for years in England, and was there at the time of Mozart's arrival, was also closely associated with the Venetian occultism and its fraternities which were then so popular within many branches of the English aristocracy.

And since you yourself are talking of Shelburne (himself associated with the British East India Company) we keep coming back to the fact that the British Empire were deeply involved in the art and culture of that century and beyond through these fraternities.

Philidor may be more interesting for your thesis.

Regards

---

Yanni,

We must get to the root of a thing, and especially in this area of research. Since the individual players are linked by their allegiance to dynastic rule, to hereditary privileges, to elite families, to vested interests over centuries and so on. A vitally important part of which is to realise the interests of the Holy Roman Empire included an alliance with occultists who emerged as a force from Venice at the time when the Jesuit Order were formed. That is, as agents of the counter-reformation. And that the role of Venice and of the emerging British Empire are areas that make sense of what is otherwise beyond explanation.

But my subject is Mozart. And yours is Cocchi.

I hope you can confirm here, at some time, that Cocchi, Kapellmeister at Olomouc was indeed related to G. Cocchi of the 18th century. Since this is strongly indicated by various lines of evidence. As for its implications, I leave these for you to consider.

Regards

Further to the above on Claudio Cocchi - (and obtained from the following sources) -

1. G. Radole: ‘Antiche stampe della cappella di S. Giusto’, Pagine istriane (1954)
2. G. Radole: ‘Musicisti a Trieste sul finire del Cinquecento e nei primi del Seicento’, Archeografo triestino, 4th ser., xxii (1959), 133–61

3. J. Sehnal: ‘Hudba na dvoře Olomouckých biskupů od 13. do poloviny 17. stol.’ Music at the courts of the bishops of Olomouc from the 13th to the mid-17th centuries', Časopis vlastivědné společnosti muzejní v Olomouci (1970), 73–86

4. C. Desimoni: ‘Saggio storico sulla musica in Liguria e sulla storia musicale genovese’, NA, new ser., v (1987), suppl.

5. D. Calcagno: ‘Cocchi, Claudio’, Dizionario biografico dei liguri (Genoa, 1990)

6. G. Vecchi - short article on C. Cocchi in 'Grove'

In 1626 Claudio Cocchi was a chaplain and musician (and shortly afterwards perhaps maestro di cappella: see below) to the music-loving Cardinal Franz Dietrichstein, Bishop of Olomouc and Governor of Moravia, who fostered the Italian style and who employed several Italian musicians. From 1627 to 1630 Cocchi was also maestro di cappella of Trieste Cathedral and superintendent of the friars minor there. He was appointed maestro of S Francesco, Milan, in 1632, when, in the dedication of his op.10, he mentioned he had worked in a similar capacity not only at Trieste but also at Olomouc too and also at S Severino Marche, at Avignon and also at the Sacro Convento, Assisi (also in 1632). It is unclear whether he was at these last three places entirely between 1630 and 1632 or before 1626 as well. He is known to have been a member of an academy known as ‘Accademico Arrischiato detto l’Allegro’. If his work op.10 is correctly designated, at least seven volumes of music by him must be lost. Those that survive, consist wholly of music in the concertato style, are 'Armonici concentus … stilo moderno' (published in Venice, 1626), 'Messe concertate' (Venice, 1627), both for five voices and organ, and 'Ghirlanda sacra de salmi concertati … libro secondo' op.10, for four voices and continuo (Milan, 1632), which also includes an 'Ave maris stella'.

//

Rgds

also -

http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...UK313%26sa%3DG

/

And here is a short excerpt from 'The Manufacture of Mozart' (taken from the first chapter, entitled 'The Mozart Empire') -

In a major musical reference work of 11 volumes, (‘The New Oxford History of Music’) - (1973) - may be seen the following comments in its 5th volume (which focuses on music during the second half of the 18th century) - the period when Mozart lived, and whose cover is ominously entitled, ‘Age of Enlightenment‘ -

‘The scope of the work is sufficiently indicated by the titles of the several volumes. Our subject throughout has been to present music, not as an isolated phenomenon or the work of outstanding composers, but as an art developing in constant association with every forum of human activity and creativity. The biographies of individuals are therefore incidental to the main plan of the history…’

(Editors E. Wellesz and F. Sternfeld, in their introduction to Volume 5, ‘Age of Enlightenment’- ‘New Oxford History of Music’ (1973).

Such was the highly commendable aim of those two editors as they attempted to guide readers through music of this period. In view of their much welcomed approach we can expect this 724 page section to provide a fresh, more holistic approach to music and musical achievement over this vital and highly creative period. And we will return to this publication and its results in a moment. But first, consider Mozart in Vienna.

By the time of his death in Vienna in late 1791 Mozart, married and resident in the Austrian capital for around 9 years, is credited with having composed around 700 musical works, around half of these before his arrival in the city and the other half (which include some of the finest music of the 18th or any other century) within that same city. This amazing list of compositional achievements includes, so we are told, some 27 piano concertos, close to 50 symphonies, over 20 church works, over a dozen operas, numerous wind concertos, no less than 5 violin concertos, dozens of chamber works (including string quintets and quartets) and hundreds of others in virtually every musical form. The same W.A. Mozart was also celebrated as a teacher of composition and harmony to numerous pupils, was an equally celebrated genius across much of Europe, was envied for his prodigious abilities by at least some of his own musical associates (this according to his father and himself) and was the celebrated composer of the famous Singspiel, ‘Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail’ (this being performed widely across German speaking lands within his Vienna period ) and also of a series of remarkable operas such as ‘Le Nozze di Figaro’, ‘Don Giovanni’ and ‘Cosi Fan Tutte’. This man was even more celebrated for these things in Prague. So that if we can imagine ourselves in the Austrian capital in the year of 1790 this prodigy of western music still has ahead of him the writing of ‘Die Zauberflote’, ‘La Clemenza di Tito’, the Clarinet Concerto, and, of course, the Requiem. To complete our thumbnail sketch of the mercurial Mozart we must also record his famed abilities as a keyboard virtuoso, this demonstrated many times to much profit before hundreds of aristocrats and music lovers over those Vienna years, and the fact he was a private tutor to literally dozens of pupils, some of whom became leading virtuosos and composers themselves. The celebrity of Mozart within this ‘city of music’ and this list of his talents and achievements has been built upon that already obtained from his many tours of his childhood and youth. Or so, at least, says convention. It is this Mozart, the Mozart of convention, whom we must now examine more closely.

(You will pardon me retaining a sense of humour throughout this difficult publication so that this act of criticism against one of the great icons of western civilization remains readable. Please believe I want its findings to be of value and for them to be judged in the light of the available evidence. No attempt will be made to convince you of things which may sound too strange or to change your mind if you choose to disagree. Nor will there be any attempt over the following chapters to impress you with pages of footnotes scribbled down from countless obscure publications or to provide you with dreamy eulogies. But, to the extent that satire is (and was in Mozart’s time) a form of criticism, so satire will feature here in a fair and honest attempt to examine and convey to you the Mozart phenomenon and its formation during the late 18th and early 19th centuries. So if you find yourself unimpressed by the picture that emerges from this work you may remember its humour and goodwill and may even, eventually, forgive the fool who first brought these things to your attention.

//

R.E. Newman

Don't let the fact of the specific "dynasty", with their specific reasons and interests, going against the "Holy Roman Empire" as they did, disturb your recital Robert.

Definitely, Mozart and his jesuit counterreformers took over the world eversince as agents of the Venetian occultists acting for the Vatican who, in turn, still are agents of the Holy Roman Empire, who in fact are today the main shareholders of the Church of England, Pzifer, Akla Setzler, Coca Loca and the Fed.

Great story!

Cheers!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

We must get to the root of a thing, and especially in this area of research. Since the individual players are linked by their allegiance to dynastic rule, to hereditary privileges, to elite families, to vested interests over centuries and so on. A vitally important part of which is to realise the interests of the Holy Roman Empire included an alliance with occultists who emerged as a force from Venice at the time when the Jesuit Order were formed. That is, as agents of the counter-reformation. And that the role of Venice and of the emerging British Empire are areas that make sense of what is otherwise beyond explanation.

But my subject is Mozart. And yours is Cocchi.

I hope you can confirm here, at some time, that Cocchi, Kapellmeister at Olomouc was indeed related to G. Cocchi of the 18th century. Since this is strongly indicated by various lines of evidence. As for its implications, I leave these for you to consider.

Regards

---

Thank you for your description of the corporate world. You must dare to believe there is a real one. Even to know it.

Count Ferdinand Ernst Gabriel von Waldstein to young Beethoven leaving for Vienna from Bonn, November 1792:

Dear Beethoven! You go to realise a long-desired wish : the genius of Mozart is still in mourning and weeps for the death of its disciple. (...) By incessant application, receive Mozart's spirit from Haydn's hands.

The count's alleged brother at the time, a "Joseph Karl von Waldstein", was hosting "Giacomo Casanova" in the castle of Dux (also "Duchcov"-rings a bell, Robert?) where Casanova allegedly died June 1798.

Googling for "Joseph Karl von Waldstein" however one comes back to Casanova who propably created "Joseph Karl" to fit his own biography, written there....

....while Joseph Karl's brother, Count Ferdinand von Waldstein.....

...On 3 June 1795, Ferdinand sealed a contract with England on creating a "Mergentheim regiment". From 1796, he was in London. On 23 July 1797, the elector wrote, "For over a year neither the order nor his creditors have heard anything from Ferdinand von Waldstein, I wish him much money and intelligence". Evidence shows Ferdinand was occasionally with his regiment in west India. In 1807, he left the British army.

From 1809, Ferdinand lived in Vienna or on his Bohemian estates. He withdrew from the order in 1811. On 9 May 1812, Ferdinand married Countess Isabella Rzewuska. After unfortunate financial transactions, he became impoverished, and died in 1823 in Vienna. Wikipedia!

Those bohemian jesuits pop up all over, don't they?

LOL!!

Of great relative interest to true musicologists:
http://www.giusepperausa.it/mozart_e..._misterio.html

Altri indizi si aggiungono se si pensa che un altro Waldstein, Jan Vincenc Ferrerius von Waldstein (1731-1797), “scopre” intorno al 1760 il talento del praghese Josef Myslivecek e lo manda a studiare, nel 1763, da Giovanni Battista Pescetti, ovvero proprio nella Venezia di Galuppi, Bertoni e Luchesi, città dalla quale inizia l’ascesa italiana e quindi europea del “divino boemo”.

Jan Vincenc Ferrerius or Vincent von Waldstein only exists today thanks to the creative powers of "Myslivecek", ie "Casanova" who also created Jan's cousin "Joseph Karl von Waldstein" as above.

How right about the brits was Cocchi, saying "They only appreciate what they have dearly paid for". He was a true lover of nature, afterall, just like his "Rousseau"!


To conclude:

Gioachino Cocchi's late 17th roots in Bohemia may be traced to http://aleph.vkol.cz/pub/svk01/00055/27/000552706.htm, (Katalog Vědecké knihovny v Olomouci, báze SVK01, záznam 000552706):

Jan Antonín Cassinis de "Bugella" (De Mugella obviously), 1659-1719, Rector of Karls-Universität Prague in 1694.

Yanni,

Thanks for this stuff about Waldstein and Beethoven etc. But by 1792 the career of Beethoven was already under the control of the same elites who had manufactured Mozart and who now oversaw the career of Beethoven. The Illuminatists (who were first to publicise the 13 year old Beethoven in Bonn in their 'Cramer's Magazine' of 1783) were a powerful force in Bonn. Including this same Waldstein you mentioned, also local music publisher Simrock (himself deeply involved in 'Mozart' publications) who had been a member of the Bonn chapel orchestra. And yes, their occultist links to Dux are well known. By 1783, Yanni, the music publishing industry of Germany and Austria was virtually all in the hands of the Illuminatists. In Bonn the 'Bonn Reading Society' was an Illuminatist organisation. In Vienna there were amongst the illuminatist/fraternity publishers Hoffmeister, for example. And Artaria. Both had close association with the career of Mozart in Vienna during his lifetime. So the control once exercised by the Jesuits in publishing and censorship throughout Germany and Austria was now (here in the musical sphere) and especially after the ban of 1773 (actually as early as 1762 in France) in the hands of these fraternities associated with the illuminatists. Through the 'Reading Societies' etc. And yes, Count Waldstein's brother was closely associated with Casanova at Dux. And, as for the first performance of 'Figaro' (at Frankfurt) in the year before the 'premiere' which company staged it there ? Other than the Grossmann theatrical group, themselves (until 1783) based at Bonn.

And who was the real patron of Casanova ? In the 'Memoirs' of Casanova (the volume entitled 'The Eternal Quest' p.231 he writes -


'Shortly after, the pope died and he was succeeded by the Venetian Rezzonico (1758) who created my own patron, the Abbe de Bernis, a Cardinal'.

And, on the next page -

'Cardinal de Bernis passed 10 years in exile, procul negotiis, but he was not happy as he told me himself when I knew him in Rome 15 years afterwards.... Cardinal de Bernis was never recalled - there is no instance of King Louis 14th having ever recalled a minister whom he had disgraced. But on the death of Rezzonico he had to go to Rome to be present at the papal conclave, and there he remained (in Rome) as the French Ambassador'.

Clear proof, Yanni, of who was Casanova's patron. Cardinal de Bernis, who became French Ambassador at Rome and formerly minister of King Louis 14th of France.

So this 'illuminatist' movement was controlled from the start by the same elites. The secularisation known as the 'enlightenment'. Who soon controlled the music business as we see an example here of at the time of Waldstein and Beethoven.

(Incidentally, the musical score of 'The Magic Flute' was sent to Bonn by Mozart before it was ever performed (according to the surviving correspondence of this same Simrock). Where it was 'worked on'. He admits this fact in a letter to the German music editor Gottfried Weber. Refered to in a book published in Paris in the 1930's called 'La Jeunesse de Beethoven' by J.D. Prod'homme.

And here is an article on Cardinal Bernis (Francois Joachim de Pierre de Bernis 1715-94).

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:J...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Regards

Certainly the more "scholars" use Casanova as a source, the more trustworthy he becomes.

Did you have to wait in line?

LOL!!!

While you'll be assembling such "pearls" for your next masterpiece, I'll be eagerly awaiting Mr Giuseppe Rausa's next article on Cocchi-Gluck-Myslivecek-Casanova etc.

'E molto particulare,' said Cocchi, the Composer; 'ma quei Inglesi non fanno conto d'alcuna cosa se non ben pagata'

Cheers!

Don't want to read Casanova's own memoirs ?. No problem. It tells us clearly who his patron was. Doesn't it ?

Here are the details of Rezzonico becoming pope in 1758.

http://timelines.com/1758/7/6/carlo-...i-elected-pope

And here are more details of Cardinal Bernis -

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:G...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Certainly the more "scholars" use Casanova as a source, the more trustworthy he becomes.

Did you have to wait in line?

LOL!!!

While you'll be assembling such "pearls" for your next masterpiece, I'll be eagerly awaiting Mr Giuseppe Rausa's next article on Cocchi-Gluck-Myslivecek-Casanova etc.


Cheers!

---

Last time you trusted "Casanova" (ie "Chastellux"), if I rightly remember, you had to say farewell to your "West Indies"!

Your reluctance to share is well understood!

Enjoy you Valentine day!

Yanni,

Since you (and not I) were the person who started off today with Waldstein -this in association with Beethoven you will of course agree that Simrock, Waldstein and others were Illuminati members at Bonn. Which makes it difficult for you, I realise. Since there is Casanova living with Waldstein's brother at Dux. LOL !

And when it is pointed out that Casanova (in his own writings) identifies his own patron as a Cardinal at Rome this is too much for you. You cannot see the wood for the trees again !

Can you confirm that these persons at Bonn (closely associated with Beethoven) were members of the Bonn Reading Society and were Illuminati members in Bonn ? Or shall I provide you with evidence for it ? Including Waldstein himself ?

And will you confirm that Casanova did have a patron who became a Cardinal at Rome and who was formerly the Foreign Minister of France under Louis, King of France. Again, if you need more proof I am happy to oblige.

LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Last time you trusted "Casanova" (ie "Chastellux"), if I rightly remember, you had to say farewell to your "West Indies"!

Your reluctance to share is well understood!

Enjoy you Valentine day!

---

Cocchi as "Myslivecek" first and as "Casanova" next, created two "Waldsteins", and it's you who select to see the tree but miss the wood:

The main point of my post was the discovery of Doctor Jan Antonin Cassinis "Mugellano" of Karl University in Prague, certainly Antonio Cocchi's father and Gioachino's grandfather, both from Mugello.

His presence there explains and confirms some "open parts" of my research as anybody who has carefully followed it will certainly realize.

You may forever go on linking Cocchi to Rome, Weishaupt, Cagliostro etc but, as France's top agent, it was his duty to infiltrate and control all "fraternities" and also to plant decoys to misguide his enemies.

Some of his aliases were betrayed and had to destroy them but this happened after he secured "the wood" of West Indies as "marquis de Chastellux".

"Casanova" btw not only testifies in his "memoirs" he is closely related to maestro Cocchi and Le comte de Saint Germain, but also wishes to advise us that he was present at "Mozart's" Don Giovanni or Don Juan in Vienna of 1787, the year he had "Gluck" dying.He also advises his readers that Cagliostro (who had gone to the other side in the meantime) was a skilled forgerer.

As for the one and only real Waldstein giving Mozart spirit's blessing to Beethoven, l can but guess it's another part of re "fiction" (with Beethoven participating), his long service in the British army and his bankruptcy on retirement speaking for themselves as to who really owned the Waldstein properties in Prague, till 1797 at least.

Cheers!

Yanni,

It seems you don't want to acknowledge the fact that the Waldstein of Bonn was a member of the Illuminati there - the one associated with Beethoven in 1792. As was the Bonn music publishers. This is the Waldstein whose brother owned the house in Dux where Casanova (whose patron was a Cardinal lived) - even although you have the name of the cardinal, the details of his career, and the reference to him by Casanova. There can be no association between Rome and the 'Englightenment' yes ?

As a plain matter of fact Casanova (and others) were linked to the Venetian intelligence services. For which there is a ton of evidence. The same Venetians who had made England into an empire (as already said).

But, since my subject is music and the legendary career of Mozart I will focus on that subject here. This same place (Dux) where Casanova lived was, in the 19th century, also residence to the biographer Anton Schindler, who spent over 65 years in the service of the same Waldstein family. And whose manufacture of Beethoven diaries etc has been known since at least 1970. The same Anton Schindler whose work on Beethoven is full of inventions. Just another coincidence, of course !

You wish to define the careers of Cocchi and others as those of the French government ! What 'government' of France are you refering to ? Did one exist at this time ? It was an aristocracy serving nobody but themselves. Yanni, the Illuminatists were larger than the government of France. They were active in Germany, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Holland, England, France and elsewhere. But you have Cocchi merely as an agent of the French government ! Really, this is contradicted by all we know. The Illuminatists did not care for any nation. Cocchi was involved in much bigger things. As were all empires. What did he achieve for the 'French government' as an agent ? Writing operas ? Really, this makes no sense.

No, Cocchi (and the libertine agents of the Englightenment, such as Casanova and Cagliostro) were agents of an occultist network. The secularisation of Europe after the collapse of all credibility for the Holy Roman Empire. As were Voltaire, Rousseau and others. This had nothing to do with the 'French government' and everything to do, as writers of the time knew, with the overthrow of national governments. A part of which was the cultural side. As we see here with Waldstein etc. And that's precisely why here with Waldstein/Beethoven/Dux etc. we find Casanova at Dux. It's why we find Schindler at Dux. It's why Waldstein, the Bonn music publisher Simrock and many others (including Hoffmeister and major German music publishers and managers were Illuminatists). Because the control they sought was far greater than that of the music of France. It was the control of the music industry and what was taught and believed of it. Not the only subject in which they sought control, but the one which I am focused on.

Therefore, whether there were several Waldsteins, several Schindlers, or several Cocchi's the aim is the very same. To secure the control of art and culture internationally and to eventually take control of its dissemination and propagation, in the same way that banking, commerce and all other areas of influence were also the targets of control. The mass media, in fact. And control of what is believed as 'history'. It is in the musical sense that I am interested and where, I think, you really should acknowledge this fact. Since G. Cocchi was part of that aspect. As were so many others.

As for your other posts on Cocchi ancestry etc, yes, this is interesting and thanks for this. And, yes, again, Casanova's proven links with 'Don Giovanni' in Prague (1787) are still another proof of that aspect of the Illuminatist movement.

Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Cocchi created two "Waldsteins", the first as "Myslivecek", the second as "Casanova" and it's you who select to see the tree but miss the woods:

The main point of my post was the discovery of Jan Antonin Cassinis "Mugellano" of Karl University in Prague, certainly Antonio Cocchi's father and Gioachino's grandfather.

His presence there explains and confirms some "open parts" of my research as anybody who has carefully followed my research will certainly realize.

You may forever go on linking him to Rome, Weishaupt, Cagliostro etc but, as France's top agent, it was his duty to infiltrate and control all "fraternities" and also to plant decoys to misguide his enemies.

Some of his aliases were betrayed and had to destroy them but this happened after he secured "the woods" of West Indies as "marquis de Chastellux".

"Casanova" btw not only testifies in his "memoirs" he is closely related to maestro Cocchi and Le comte de Saint Germain, but also wishes to advise us that he was present at "Mozart's" Don Giovanni in Vienna of 1787, the year he had "Gluck" dying.He also advises his readers that Cagliostro (who had gone to the other side in the meantime) was a skilled forgerer.

Cheers!

---