Or maybe it suggests that only those who are "sinful" get ill and once their sins are forgiven, they recover.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
Disclaimer: I am not of this view; only suggesting another way of intrepreting the text.
Or maybe it suggests that only those who are "sinful" get ill and once their sins are forgiven, they recover.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
Disclaimer: I am not of this view; only suggesting another way of intrepreting the text.
Don't think so because other examples are given of people who were born sick and remained that way for most of their lives despite not having any knowledge or propensity towards sin. But therein lies the ambiguity: these did not sin, yet their ''sins'' were forgiven.
A seeming contradiction but that's the Bible for you.
I've read them very closely. Your idea about God's omniscience is simply wrong - period. You have constructed an argument that makes sense to you, and I'll accept that. But it is a simplistic view, one that the Bible does not support. Had you - even once - dealt with the points I'd brought up, we might have had a real conversation. I see that that is impossible, and that's too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
I'll leave you alone.
There is no arguement except 4 the question posed.Religion and polotics are the most argued about subjects in the world.The easiest way to answer this question posed is to read your bible.
``read your Bible``
In college, my humanities term paper and my law school jurisprudence paper was on biblical law. A professor of Jewish law used part of my writing in a book he published a year after I graduated.
I have participated in numerous public debates on biblical teaching and perhaps a couple in Canon law. My opponents have demonstrated that they greatly appreciate my knowledge of the subjects.
When anyone {and I mean anyone} can prove to me that my idea of omniscience is incorrect, I'll be the first to thank them for their success.
It may be the easiest way yet can't say it would be the most credible one. If you resort to merely one source to find the answer, that won't help much. It is best to read the Holy Books that have been sent to people thus far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ydfkdy
Holy Book I: Lament for lost love.
this is all seeming to assume that there is some kind of creator god that humans can understand and comprehend to some degree... isn't the very idea of being able to understand ideas such as timeless, eternal, infinite, kind of absurd... for even putting names to them gives them definition which they necessarily don't have... timeless means everything is nothing, and nothing is everything... and even that gives definition and form, but I think of it more as just saying it is beyond comprehension, we just have to accept... so all concepts of good and evil, of time, of value, of things, necessarily vanish, at least when put in human terms... if we ever do get to an infinite and timeless existence, it will be something completely foreign and unrecognizable.. god, or the godhead, or whatever you may want to call it, cannot be explained in human terms, cannot be defined by our language or thoughts, god encompasses everything and nothing all at once, all of time, and none of it, for there is no past, present, future for infinite being... it is completely incomprehensible to humans, we can only accept, not understand.. somewhat like the original buddhist ideas of anatta and nirvana...
but humans will never be able to just have faith that there is something that is everything, or is part of and behind everything, they will need to see it proven, or at least find some idea of it... so I would say in accordance with some previous posts that god, or the idea of god, cannot be judged on a human level, or even by human minds, for god is everything and god is nothing (on that note I believe so are we in essence)...
or maybe I'm just talking nonsense, the thoughts of another rambling, ridiculous man... hmmm...
Look up the word theodicy
but that is what we are talking about here... why look at others attempts to reconcile good and evil when we can start afresh and solve it here? *smile* no one has really satisfactorily answered the problem that, or resolved, hence the fact new solutions are come up with quite often... I guess each one of us has to either solve it or accept it in our own particular way...Quote:
Originally Posted by azulnoel
nono quite the contrary, sir or madam. i really like the two posts of yours i've read so far! i'm glad to breathe the same air as you. ah, er, hope that didn't come off weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
i think i have almost the exact same idea of god as you. i've had a couple experiences which, er, convinced me. something almost similar to something i heard about but haven't read yet, Sojourner Truth's description of her meeting with Jesus.
haha... not weird... sir it is... I would be interested in hearing of Sojourner Truth's description... is it in her book? for I was looking at it online a while back, just never actually read it... but I may have to now:)Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
A movie, called "the man from earth" has quite an interesting twist on the Christ story.. it maybe isn't the best of movies but is quite good nonetheless and the Christ story in context is fascinating, if it was actually true would explain a lot of things, and for that matter make some sense.
God is perfect. He has no evil in Him. I believe you have to ask him into your heart. you don'y have him there already otherwise the whole heaven and hell thing won't work.
Jesus also said ''be ye perfect''. I know of many Christians but not one is even close to being ''perfect''.
;)
We are all declared righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice; the "perfection" you speak of is a lifetime journey for the believer. It is not a "presto-chango" magic trick God performs. Like any good parent, He wishes for His children to develop character. Being a Christian doesn't mean that you have instant character; it means that you're willing to let your Creator start teaching you how to be a man/woman of character.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
See the example of Saul of Tarsus --- that belies your assertion. ;)
The same Saul that changed his name to Paul? This one?
Acts 7:14+
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do... For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing...
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am!
He was not perfect. He tried to be, but he admits his faults.
If you feed on negativity like that, you'll trip on knives and stuff.
``He was not perfect.``
In his earlier life he murdered possibly tens of thousands of Christians. Frankly, I don't blame him for having a guilty conscience.
if there are a heaven and a hell in this universe, and if god or christ can forgive evil for others, which they have no right to do... then there can never be harmony in the universe, as Ivan says in "TBK"... for how can god forgive for the little boy ripped apart by the hunting dogs of the rich landowner in the scenes described by Ivan in "TBK"... because christ sacrificed himself, it is okay to do anything as long as you are genuinely sorry for doing it... what kind of harmony and endless good does that inspire? The answer is none...
harmony can only be found outside of the idea of a personal creator god, beyond good and evil, beyond doubt, with endless faith in love, and the realization that somewhere, on some elementary level we are all the same, and all different, we are all everything and nothing... nothing is everything, and everything is nothing... love is..
I think this is where your statement is flawed. A person who is genuinely sorry for something is not very likely to repeat it. Maybe he was once purposefully bad, and he was not sorry, then he did lots of bad things. If he ever became genuinely sorry, his bad things would drastically reduce in quantity.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
you forget the power of addiction... and I'm not just referring to people who do lots of bad things, but even one terrible thing, you can be sorry for doing it, but who has the right to forgive you? Christ? God? That idea is absurd... that Christ can forgive for others.... there can't be harmony in the universe with a creator god, with heaven, with hell, with a god forgiving for others.. if there is I want nothing to do with it...Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
Oh, I read your first post with a different twist than I think you intended. I think I understand it better now that I read your second one.
When God forgives people, it's for the offenses that people do against God himself. If I murder someone, it's not only an offense to the person I murdered, it's an offense to God. God forgives me for offending him. The other person must also forgive in order for me to be fully forgiven from all angles. I would need to be reconciled both to God and to that person I murdered (or his friends and relatives, since he'd be dead).
sounds interesting... yes I agree with you here if you think there is some kind of superhuman god, that exists in this universe... that forgives people... but I don't think that... I think one needs to forgive oneself, for each one of us, is part of you could call it the infinite godhead... like in buddhism... only in forgiving ourselves can we truly find harmony, and in forgiving ourselves we then show true remorse, for we must have realized the terrible thing we did, and can be forgiven by others... though forgiving oneself, if one truly is sorry is an almost impossible thing... what do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
cheers
I agree that forgiving oneself is very tough. In my experience, that only way I can forgive myself for things is only after everyone else involved has already forgiven me. I don't know if that's the way it goes with everybody, but it's definitely extremely difficult to forgive oneself. If others have not forgiven, then forgiving oneself is even closer to impossible.
I agree forgiving is hard to do but you do not always need another's forgiveness before you can forgive yourself. I had to forgive someone whom did an unforgivable act against me but I did not forgive for him but for myself. In order for there to be balance in life we are all made up of good or evil and we choose which path to take. I believe the same in my Creator too.
Where are sins? Inside or without?
I just now read a story of two monks, one asked for salvation or something similar, of his sins, and the other said, bring your sins to me and I will absolve you. After a while, the first monk said his sins were unattainable to him, and the second monk said he'd finished enlightening him.
Isn't sin really in the eye of the beholder? What I consider sinful is not what the Catholic church believe's to be sinful or most people for that fact. I just know that I there is light and dark within me and I chose to walk on the light side.
yes, this is exactly it... put so concisely... one can only forgive oneself.. there is no external forgiveness... in forgiving oneself if it is truly meant, one is forgiven by everything, for we all part of the same whole, we are all god, and god is all of us... therefore self forgiveness is the only true forgiveness...Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
only through it can we be at peace and find harmony in the universe, for as Christ said, echoing Siddhartha before him, "the kingdom of god is within you"....
Nikolai, what is this story? where did you read it?
cheers
Peace!
According to holy Quran:
He is Allah, the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner. His are the most beautiful names. All that is in the heaven and in the earth glorifies Him, and He is the Mighty, the Wise. [ chapter 59, verse 25 ]
and one of His name is Al-Quddus (the Holy One) given in verse 24.
regards.
The Quran teaches that by virtue of His excellences:
1- God is One, without associate.
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2- He suffers from no defect.
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3- He comprehends all good qualities and manifests all holy powers.
4- He is the Originator of all creation and is the fountain-head of all grace.
God has nothing to do with goodness and badness. It is nature that does everything.
God alway beyond good and evil.
"It is nature that does everything"
Is nature a "god" to you? What religious texts (if any) do you use in making this definition?
"Is nature a "god" to you? What religious texts (if any) do you use in making this definition?"
Since when were religious "texts" required to have a belief?
to quote tom waits... 'there ain't no devil, it's only God when he is drunk.'
on one side we have this great point.. if God is all, than God made sin, which means God is bad... thus, God is satan. following that line of reason we could very easily be some wet dream of some deified kid who still wets the bed. Since mankind is not separate from Deity, but everything is enclosed in thus said deity, than we could very easily be some detailed daydream.
however, on the other hand, if God made it, and is outside of it, yet interacts with it, this could pose the option that the antithesis of what God wills being done could exist without God being a part of it.
thus God is not sin/satan....
but what do i know, follow everyone else’s advise.... cause it seemed to me that ALL THEIR ANSWERS LEAD TO THIS SATAN=GOD DIETY!!!
Bravo!
p.s. this 'nature' talk is so humorous. i could 'guess' at the nature of God... even follow the bible... but is it not a bit presumptuous to know what God's 'Nature' is... isn't that what the Pharisees did?
We may have our grievances, but they can never be laid at God's door. Now when I say "door" that's just a figurative sense. I don't intend to give him any location for God is everywhere. Again, that's not easy to explain. When I say "everywhere" I don't want to sound as if God is physical or that He makes movements like us human being. He is as He was and as He will be Always. He is with us in his Knowledge.
Our petty grievances or complaints or the so called intellect or intelligence - all these don't entitle us to call God "evil". God is absolute Goodness. Being judgmental about God is, in my opinion, digging a hellish pit of everlasting suffering and torment. Now, does that make God evil? No! The bottom line is that the God's Mercy precedes His Wrath. He is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful, and Most Benevolent. Who knows we might find ourselves in the everlasting Paradise despite our sins - subject to the fact that we first believe in Him as our Creator, be aware of our shortcomings and sins and ask His forgiveness time and again. Surely, that's not tough for gaining the Bliss of Paradise! What say?
I agree to a certain extent if not wholly with your views on God. God is to me rather different than what you construed It to be. God is above all these attributes of goodness and badness and what we call good or bad is just our interpretation of phenomena. Even in nature there is no anything good or evil and God is far over and above these worldly attributes of goodness and badness and to liken God to worldly attributes is to misunderstand God totally.Quote:
Originally Posted by nasir
I do not say God is kind and unkind and I do not believe God is just or unjust to us. Moreover I do not say God is pleased with our prayers. God is indifferent to us and our understanding of God is rooted in what we gleaned from the scriptures we have read or from what we have learned from our elders.
I do not subscribe to the Biblical or mythological God and God to me is universal not a personal one.
Karma is a good word that tells us lots of things about worldly affairs and phenomena and things happen to us owing to Karma. If we behave properly with your neighbors you are likely to get similar treatments from your neighbors and if you misbehave you will receive likewise.
Of course God has nothing to do with your actions and your fortunes and what is more you cannot comprehend the nature of God through your three dimensional mind and God is all above and over these dimensions.
Respectfully disagree. "Good" and "evil" cannot be completely divorced from God, because then they become merely subjective. "Good" is defined by that which is consistent with the character of God: justice, mercy, compassion, generosity, sacrifice, courage, love. "Evil" is that which is inconsistent with the character of God: betrayal, slander, selfishness, cowardice, malice, injustice.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
Nature is amoral. It cannot "do" anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
Those 99 names are infact traits of Allah, the God. Since Man is created in the image of God he is believed to have all those 99 traits as mentioned in the Quran.
You have a point there!!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
Got that backward, didn't you? It's actually the believer who is making the concept of good and evil meaningless by subordinating them to his definition of God. The binding of Isaac demonstrates that the believer needs to think that whatever God orders is good, regardless of how reprehensible we humans may think it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
Regards,
Istvan