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One that I firmly believe. But lets not get into that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
I don't want to be attacked for what I believe and I don't want to attack someone personally for what they believe.
Unless of course that attack is full proof that the earth is NOT fixed in space. :p
Yes, we can entertain it - we can even answer it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
No, space is not fixed.
Well, we would be able to say 'good riddance' about that, but all in all we are not really rid of them, because they come on forums like these to tell us their nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by skib
Point is that they continue to get us 'proof' that is ridiculous and laughable as it is foremost mathematically impossible that the earth if fixed.
Mark Bastable has answered the two following questions -
Q1. Does your model suggest the land of America is rotating from West to East around 900 miles an hour during the 5 hours or so a plane takes to cross from Miami to Los Angeles and during which a plane headed in the opposite direction at the same speed travels on the same course and at the same speed (allowing for headwinds etc) from Los Angeles to Miami ? (A total change by 'rotation' in that time (so we are told) of around 4,500 miles.
ANSWER - YES
and again -
Q2. Do you accept the distance between Miami (Florida) and Los Angeles (California) is around 2348 miles (3778 kilometres) ?
ANSWER - YES
//
Great ! So a plane from Miami arrives in Los Angeles in a few hours and a plane from Los Angeles to Miami arrives the next day. If both planes are flying at the same speed. Since the rotation of the Earth makes one flight last many more times than the other.
Glad we sorted that out.
//
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
It's an interesting point. I have a couple of queries concerning the observed flight times assuming the Earth is fixed and not rotating on its axis. Firstly, I'd have thought it would be reasonable to assume that the flight time East-West and West-East would be identical if the Earth was not rotating on its axis. But as we have observed the flight times are not identical. There is a difference of 50 minutes in a flight from Miami to Los Angeles compared to the return flight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
The same marked difference in flight times is not observed, however, on North-South, South-North flights. For example, a flight from London to Johannesburg takes 11 hours 5 minutes whereas the return flight takes 11 hours 20 minutes. A difference of only 15 minutes over a distance of 5617 miles. Can you explain why, in the context of a fixed Earth, flight times differ a greater amount when an aeroplane is traveling East to West or vice versa, compared to North to South?
Secondly, can you extrapolate your explanation of the affect of headwinds on the East-West, West-East flight? What I don't understand is why headwinds affect flights only in one direction, as the advertised flight time for Miami to Los Angeles is always 5 hours 45 minutes, and the advertised return flight time is always 4 hours 55 minutes, assuming we are looking at direct flights. Is wind affect predictable because the Earth is fixed? This does not appear to correlate with my own observational experience. For example, where I live today there is no wind, but two days ago there was a strong North wind. So, why does is the flight time not exactly the same, with some margin for error either way due to unpredictable weather conditions?
As a separate question, just turning to your star trails, which I love:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ltered-640.jpg
again, working on the basis that the Earth is fixed in space wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that if the stars are circling a fixed Earth I would see the same stars all of the time, as my position vis-a-vis the stars never changes? If so, why do I see different stars in the autumn than I do in the spring? For example, I can see the constellation Pegasus in autumn but I can't see it in spring. And I can see Orion in winter, but not in summer. Why is that?
Hi there FifthElement,
1. You are of course right that flight times between two cities (Los Angeles and Miami and vice-versa) usually vary by 50 minutes or so. And, yes, seasonal wind and weather trends adequately account for these differences. Headwinds etc.
2. In answer to your second question, I suppose there are two factors at play here. Schedulers of flight programmes may tend to generalise the estimated flight times. The actual times tending to vary slightly and gradually throughout the season. And, secondly, the seasons are of course not changing abruptly but gradually, as the Sun continues its constantly altering relationship with the Earth. So the changing Sun/Earth relationship is the source of seasonal weather/prevailing wind and current changes.
The really great thing is we now have two systems to compare and on which to arrive at a verdict on these issues. Which, when we do, I believe, fully supports the view the Earth is fixed in space and the elegant motion of the Sun and stars are entirely consistent with a non-rotating Earth and with the actual findings of those who have fairly examined these issues.
http://sites.google.com/site/earthdeception/
Regards
Hi there Fifth Element,Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
The stars themselves (the entire night sky we see) are themselves in their rotation with the whole night sky revolving throughout the year. With these stars in their own rotations. Appearing to us, as observers, here on Earth, as 'proof' that we here on Earth are rotating. But, in fact, we are fixed and are observing these rotating stars and constellations revolving throughout the year. So that in some seasons we see certain constellations but not in others. Depending on the time of year.
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
Guys, we need to go and burn down the Hubble, and all their research, and all of NASA's research- after reading the above posts by Musicology, they are clearly feeding us lies and blasphemy! PM me for more info ;)
Space is not fixed....in reference to WHAT?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Do you have any evidence for that, or are you simply making another irrational claim? If you do have evidence then provide it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
This says little, but it does tell us that you do not know what time is.Quote:
So, in this sense, space has a beginning and an end. But in my view we are far from knowing much of space or what space actually is. It is the context within what we know of the universe occurs. So that it may be, in some way or ways a manifestation of time itself.
Bienvenu,
If we are interested in the actual discoveries and actually verifiable, measured facts of science on 'Earth Rotation' and on 'The Earth Revolving Around the Sun' there was and is only one answer. Neither are actually happening.
This thread could remain open for a century and nobody will ever post any verifiable, scientifically published evidence in support of Earth Rotation. It does not exist. It has never existed. Nor would it be funded by mainstream 'science'. It's only an invented story.
Here are 4 further proofs the Earth is truly fixed in space. This time from documents that have been published that relate to these subjects.
1. Michelson/Morely Experiment (1880's) -
The negative results of the Michelson-Morley interferometer experiments conducted in Europe and the U.S. in the 1880’s consistently showed no orbital motion of the Earth around the sun. No motion. Period.
2. Michelson- Gale Experiment (1925)
(Source - ‘Astrophysical Journal’ 1925, Vol, 61 pages 140-5)
(This too acknowledged there is no verifiable evidence from astronomy or any other science to indicate that the Earth is rotating on its axis daily nor revolving around the Sun).
3. Airey’s Failure
In the published 'Proceedings of the Royal Society' London Volume 20, page 35 (which reads as follows) -
‘The experiments of Airey with telescopes clearly indicated it is the stars which are moving relative to a stationary Earth and not vice-versa’.
4. The Sagnac Experiment (1913)
‘Comptes Rendus‘ -
Volume 5 page 708-710. And pages 1410-1413.
‘’Sagnac rotated a table complete with mirrors with light being passed in opposite directions between the mirrors. He detected the movement of the table by the movement of the interference fringes on the target where they were recombined. This proved there IS an ether that all light has to pass through and completely destroys Einstein’s Theory of Relativity which says there is no such ether. It is for this reason that this same experiment is completely ignored by mainstream science. More recently Kantor has proved exactly the same with similar apparatus. ‘’
CONCLUSION
There has never been verifiable evidence from any Science that the Earth is rotating on its axis at the speed of one revolution of the Earth per day. Nor is there or has there ever been any verifiable measurement or scientific evidence that the Earth is revolving around the Sun once a year.
Add the above documents to this conversation, to the mountain of evidence from oceanography, from all of the above cases (ocean tide speeds, flight times, cloud flights, etc etc etc) and we arrive at the amazing fact that ALL the scientifically verifiable data supports the stable and fixed Earth in space around which the stars are moving and the Sun.
What we have is a giant dogma. One protected by an academic, broadcasting and publishing mafia who refuse to allow the actual facts to be publicly appreciated on these issues.
Unless/until some documentary/verifiable evidence is at last presented which contradicts any or all of the above I think you see who is being dogmatic and who is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
Yes, a crowd of people could storm its way into the Hubble's orbit and burn it in the airlessness of space.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeccaT
^Okay, so my planning is lacking...
Becca T,
Why do you bother posting here if you've nothing to contribute to this discussion ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeccaT
It's a simple matter to build a huge ship into which the crowd could force the Hubble, then they could burn it. Actyally, I think that it would be easier to smash it into small pieces. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BeccaT
She contributed as much, or more, useful information as you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Really ?
OK, let's test this.
Can you show us some verifiable evidence from any science that the Earth is rotating on its axis once every 24 hours ? Just ONE published, verifiable, scientific study. Even one ?
Can you show us some verifiable evidence from science the Earth is revolving around the Sun every 365 days. Just ONE published, verifiable, scientific study. Even one ?
ALL the verifiable, published, scientific, measured evidence suggests the opposite. Show us differently.
Clock Ticking..... now !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterL
Wow! You have managed to keep this thread (topic) alive for 10 days with 377 comments and still counting. That's incredibly impressive Musicology!
I don't know whether you really believe in what you are saying or not, but, the number of comments you have received, certainly gives a valuable insight into human behaviour. I was myself, initially, tempted to put forth an argument. The first argument that came to my mind was: "waaaha, ha, ha, HA, HA":smilielol5: But on second thought, the effort is too impressive to be scoffed at, notwithstanding my convictions.
Hi there Caesar,
The winner is you Caesar. And me, and everyone else who want these things to be settled in the light of actual, verifiable, published evidence.
'They' can't provide it. They never have. And they never will. Because it doesn't exist. The emperor has no clothes. LOL !!
How great is that ? !!!! Testimony to the fact that, at the end of the day, what is true is true. And what is not is and has always been a counterfeit.
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by caesar
R e m i n d e r
Please note that discussion threads are open to all members
as long as they do not break the Forum Rules.
Discouraging anyone from contributing is considered bullying and will not be tolerated.
If you do not want to read certain members' posts, please add them to your ignore list.
~
The Moderator is completely right.
We welcome ANY verifiable evidence that the Earth is rotating on its axis every day and completes one rotation in that time. We also welcome ANY verifiable evidence the oceans at the equator are moving at more than 1,000 mph. And we welcome ANY verifiable evidence the atmosphere is rotating around 1,000 mph anywhere on Earth.
We also welcome evidence the Earth stops rotating at more than 900 mph for passengers who are travelling between Miami and Los Angeles. And for passengers flying between Los Angeles and Miami.
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Now - are you prepared to go to the next stage, where I explain the apparent paradox of the flight-times each way between Miami and Los Angeles on a spinning globe, and you explain the apparent paradox of stars travelling at more than the speed of light in order to get around the earth in twenty-four hours?
In fact, I'll go further than that. If you will explain to me the paradox of stars travelling at more than the speed of light in order to get around the earth in twenty-four hours, I will renounce my belief in the heliocentric universe and sign up to the geocentric model. And I'll do it here, in public, in a post that you can copy and paste as often as you wish.
Mark,
At the twentieth time of asking, let's just get some firm, verifiable, checkable, published evidence from Science that the Earth is rotating on its axis in the first place. Just one report. One study. One body of measurements that are able to be checked/verified.
Can you provide any ? Just one ? From any scientific source you wish to use. A rather easy question.
And if you can produce it I will believe in a rotating Earth. Rotating around 1,000 mph at the equator. Together with the atmosphere.
See how easy I'm making it ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I. Foucault's Pendulum. One is the Foucault experiment. This was first conducted in 1851, by the Frenchman Léon Foucault. He suspended a heavy iron ball from a 200 ft (61 m) wire, creating a pendulum, from the dome of the Pantheon in Paris. He put sand underneath the pendulum, and placed a pin on the bottom of the ball, so it would leave a mark on its swing from side to side. On each swing, over the course of 24 hours, the mark in the sand would move to the right. The direction in the path showed movement of the earth against the swing of the pendulum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
2)A more modern proof of the rotation is shown by the orbits of artificial satellites. A satellite is launched from the Kennedy Space Center at a 30 degree angle to an orbit 100 mi (161 km) above Earth. Its orbit stays at approximately the same plane in space. If Earth did not rotate, the satellite would pass over Cape Canaveral each time it completed an orbit, but it does not. As it completes the first orbit, it flies over Alabama and over Louisiana on the third. Each time the satellite passes over locations in the United States, it is 1,000 mi (1,609 km) farther to the west. Tracking stations have made this observation with hundreds of satellites.
http://science.jrank.org/pages/2222/...-Rotation.html
See how easy it is to prove.
As well as Peter's excellent examples, I believe I posted something about the abberation of starlight several pages back (which was unanswered) which indicated that you could measure the rotation of the earth around the sun by looking at the degree to which stars 'wobble' over the course of a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
If this goes on much longer, I'll have to mention comets.
Everything in existence above the atomic level.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
I'm not asking you to believe it. I'm trying to start from a neutral position, unaligned with either model. I'm hoping you'll convince me of the reality of the geocentric model. If you will explain to me the paradox of stars travelling at more than the speed of light in order to get around the earth in twenty-four hours, I'll sign up to the geocentric model. And I'll do it here, in public, in a post that you can copy and paste as often as you wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Don't even consider it. that would make too much sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Foucaults Pendulum does NOT prove the Rotation of the Earth. Why do you believe it does ? Because you have assumed from the outset that the Earth is rotating, haven't you ? A completely circular argument. Focaults Pendulum proves no such thing. The Sun is in a moving relationship to the Earth. So is the moon.
Show us some verifiable, proveable evidence of Earth's rotation on its axis in 24 hours. Show us evidence of 1,000 mph oceans. Show us evidence of 1,000mph atmospheric rotation. Show us evidence of the continents revolving on the Earth round in a circle in 24 hours. You cannot do it. Because ALL the data says the very opposite. Ask oceanographers, pilots of planes, geographers, honest men. The data says the Earth stands still and bodies rotate around it. ALL the data says so. NONE disagrees with it. The findings of science are clear, unanimous, unanswerable.
Satellites are themselves in rotation of the Earth. That does not prove the Earth is rotating, does it ?
Gee ! How easy does it get ?
So, where are your 1,000 mph rotating landmasses, atmosphere, and oceans ?
Page 9939 and still counting.
Mark,Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterL
I am not asking you to sign up to a geocentric model. I am asking you to provide ONE, just ONE evidence of oceans moving at 1,000 mph at the equator, of landmasses moving at around 1,000 mph at the equator, and of the Earth's atmosphere moving at around 1,000 mph near the equator. Surely, surely, there are measured, verifiable, reports from science to confirm this.
Can you produce one. Just one ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
By default, there is still this big light thing called the moon in the sky every night which confirms the rotation of the earth and CANNOT MATHEMATICALLY BE THERE if the earth were fixed in space like you claim. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
But of course you keep ignoring that, because that is the only thing you cannot possibly deny without ridiculously denying realitiy itself. I wonder wen it is finally going to hit you.
But don't worry I will keep mentioning it until you acknowledge it.
The fact remains that ZERO evidence has been produced for 1,000 mph Ocean movements. For 1,000 mph atmospheres moving. Or for 1,000 mph landmass rotations.
There are none. They have never existed.
And that completes my posts here.
Believe what you like. The facts of science say Earth Rotation is fantasy science.
So take a look at this.
So you call the moon not evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
I'd like to know whether it exists or not.
I think it doesn't, then it is convenient. Although I bl**dy well know it stares at me all night, every night, all year.
Or, or, I know, it's got a light bulb so it can switch itself off and on.
Embarrassing, isn't it, denying reality?
:smilielol5:
This is complete bunkum, although as you dispute moon landings, it mightn't count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Photographic evidence from the moon clearly shows the rotation of the earth, giving you the 1000 mph oceans.
But since it was all staged in Hollywood, I somehow doubt that will be sufficient.
When I get really bored I'm going to count up the number of different pieces of evidence you've ignored to date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
As you keep saying, the title of this thread is The Earth is FIXED in Space. You repeatedly and justifiably insist that we return to that topic. Surely if you wanted to debunk the heliocentric model, you'd've called the thread The Earth IS NOT REVOLVING in Space. Your argument throughout has been that the heliocentric model is too absurd even to merit serious consideration. Because, as the title of the thread proposes, The Earth is FIXED in Space
I see your point. If your model is tenable, then no other model will matter. There will be no need to look further. Which is why I'm not interested in anything other than learning more about the geocentric model. I want to understand it.
So, given that the Earth is fixed in Space, could you please do me the favour of explaining the paradox of stars travelling at more than the speed of light in order to get around the earth in twenty-four hours? This is absolutely fundamental to the geocentric model, and completely relevant because your opening post concerned the movement of the stars around the earth. Explaining that movement is surely a very simple thing to do.
You see how easy I'm making it for you?
Your 'argument' here about Focault's Pendulum essentially boils down to "you're wrong because you're wrong." You refute the result of a proven, easily recreatable experiment (I myself have taken part in such a restaging) without giving any evidence as to why it is wrong. We have, all of us, provided plenty of evidence for the fact that the Earth is moving: Focault's Pendulum, the phases of the moon, the orbital patterns of artificial satellites, the impossibility of faster-than-light travel and the (still unanswered) aberration of starlight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Frankly, your argument is no different than you standing there and noisily proclaiming that the sky is green. No matter what people say, no matter how self-evident the truth is, you'll continue demanding 'proof' that the sky is blue; you will demand that we provide some measure of 'blueness' while providing a link to some spurious website as absolute proof of its 'greeness'. You will also expect us to find, in a respectable and advanced scientific journal some paradoxical article discussing the simple, self-evident truth that the sky is blue. And even if we found that, you would doubtless write it off as part of a conspiracy.
:smilielol5:
circular argument indeed!
I think we have scared him off... :(
Would you buy a used car from these jokers ?
ZERO verifiable evidence has been produced for 1,000 mph Ocean movements. From oceanography. ZERO verifiable evidence has come from physicists and weather experts for 1,000 mph atmospheres rotating the Earth. And ZERO verifiable evidence is available from anyone for 1,000 mph landmass rotations. Figures from all of these sciences are however available. They show the opposite.
In the meatime aircraft flights between any two cities in the entire world that are thousands of miles apart continue to take around the very same time to complete in either direction - allowing for headwinds. (Because the Earth obviously stops rotating at around 1,000 mph during those kind of flights. The Earth only starts rotating again around 1,000 mph when passengers are out of the airport at their destination after their baggage has been checked).
Courtesy of British Airways and Copernican Airways.
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT
'Ladies and Gentlemen,
Welcome aboard Copernican Airways Flight 007. From Los Angeles to Miami. Two cities separated by several thousand miles. Here is some flight data.
1. We will be taking off in 10 minutes.
2. The Earth below us would normally be rotating from West to East. At a speed close to 900 miles an hour. Miami is 2348 miles away from us. This Earth rotation is now cancelled - for health and safety reasons.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=uk
3. Thus, Miami will be NOT travelling at 900 mph and headed AWAY from us fast at the time we get into the air pointed at it. For health and safety reasons. Our flight speed will be around half of this usual Earth rotation speed. At best. Miami will NOT be rotated with the rest of the Earth below us. For health and safety reasons.
4. Those who are flying here to Los Angeles from Miami will NOT arrive here in less than 3 hours from now. For health and safety reasons. (Because the Earth rotation is being stopped for them too . So they finish their flight today and you can finish yours today also).
5. Coffee and tea are of course available.
Enjoy your flight !!!
:santasmil
2. The Earth below us would normally be rotating from West to East. At a speed close to 900 miles an hour. Miami is 2348 miles away from us. Fortunately we too are rotating in a likewise manner whether in the air or on the ground, so it will not make a ha'penny of difference.
3. Passengers are reminded there will be a small charge for the tea and coffee as we operate in the real world
Silly man!Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
If the earth were really rotating, Miami would be going much faster than say, Liverpool and would quickly pass it, making GMT a complete farce.