The Aeneid Discussion Group

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

When Aeneas says that Priam's trunk lays on the shore, does he mean his body was taken to the beach?

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I think so. The disrespect for his body is supposed to be reminiscent of the taking of Hector's corpse which Priam retrieves at the end of the Iliad. When Aeneas witnesses this, though, he's reminded less of Hector and more of his own family. The death of Priam becomes a warning to Aeneas that he should protect his family, or else they're all going to end up as trunks laying on the shore.

Petrarch just posted something--not two minutes ago--that shouldn't get buried. I'll respond to it once I post again in the Lawrence thread.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Don't know that I buy Dido as Mrs. Havisham, but I doubt I'll forget it soon.

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Well I wasn't saying Dido is Miss Havisham. Virgil and I were talking about reactions to Dido's vow when I suggested that a modern audience might be more skeptical of Dido's determination not to fall in love with Aeneas. They might interpret it less as nobility and more as bitterness. Miss Havisham was just the first instance I could think of for a disappointed lover souring on the idea of love.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Now I have this image in my mind of Mrs. Havisham standing on a funerary pyre crazily crying out STELLA. :lol:

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Oh, now you're just being silly.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Yes, his decapitated corpse evidently ends up on the beach. I think the idea is that they're piling up the dead on the shore outside the walls of the city, and he ends up a nameless corpse among the slaughtered. I've always imagined they threw the body off a wall to the beach below, but I don't think there's anything in the text about that, just my imagination.

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I'm not sure on the logistics of how they get Priam's corpse from the city to the shore. The Aeneid doesn't say. I like the throwing them over the wall idea. Let's stick with that.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Anyway, good discussion so far on book IV. Even after having read it several times, it's almost impossible not to get completely swept up in the intensity of the ending to that book.

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Wait, which intensity do you mean? Is it the intensity of Dido's passion, or just the intensity and pathos of the tragedy in general?

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

What was the second point you wanted to make, Virg? I may have a few things to add, but maybe we'll let Nick catch up a bit?

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Ah yes. The second point I wished to make was how Virgil integrates the political implications of Dido's love. The balance of power that she had masterfuly created to hold Africa under Carthiginian sway collapses. After she makes love with Aeneas in the cave,

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Straightway Rumor flies through Libya's great cities,
Rumor, swiftest of all the evils in the world.
(l. 219-220)

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and

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Iarbas--son of an Africa nymph whom Jove had raped--
raised the god a hundred splendid temples across
the king's wide realm, a hundred alters too,
consecrating the sacred fires
that never died, eternal sentinels of the gpds.
The earth was rich with blood of slaughtered herds
and the temple doorways wreathed with riots of flowers.
This Iarbas, driven wild, set ablaze by the bitter rumor,
approached an altar, they say as the gods hovered round...
...So King Iarbas appealed,
his hand clutching the altar, and Jove Almighty heard...
(l. 248-275 and beyond)

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I don't have the time to type out the entire passage, but we can see that her willing to marry someone, after she had soothed the political concerns around her causes rebellion and war. Again to Romans, a nation obsessed with governing their empire, this was a warning and a value professing self sacrifice for the good of the nation. It is a sacrifice that Aeneas makes and she can't.

Those are the two points. But I must say there is such fabulous writing in this Book. Dido's confrontation with Aeneas, her exasperations, the funeral pyre, and Juno's sympathy. Let me type out that last part, because Fagles does a beautiful translation. Dido has just burned herself on the pyre:

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Then Juno in all her power, filled with pity
for Dido's agonizing death, her labor long and hard,
sped Iris down from Olympus to release her spirit
wrestling now in a deathlock with her limbs.
Since she was dying a death not fated or deserved,
no, tormented, before her day, in a blaze of passion--
Proserpina had yet to pluck a golden lock from her head
and commit her life to the Styx and the dark world below.
So Iris, glistening dew, comes skimmering down from the sky
on gilded wings, trailing showers of iridescence shimmering
into the sun, and hovering over Dido's head, declares:
"So commanded, I take this lock as a sacred gift
to the God of Death, and I relealse you from your body."

With that, she cut the lock with her hand and all at once
the warmth slipped away, the life dissolves in the winds.
(ll. 862-876)

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That is just great, great poetry!!

I don't believe that Dido's impiety would have shocked the Roman's of Virgil's day. Those that are easily shocked will always find something to be shocked about, but let's not forget that he writes just after Catullus and contemporary with Ovid and his Amores. Of course, Ovid was exiled by Octavian, so we know that he was very conservative, and when you are living in a dictatorship there's only one opinion that matters. Although in recent memory, during Caesar's Gallic triumph, his soldiers marched alongside his chariot singing:

Home we bring our bald whoremonger;
Romans, lock your wives away!
All the bags of gold you lent him
Went his Gallic tarts to pay.
-Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, Robert Graves translation, p. 36.

That could just be an example of the vulgar plebeian masses of the time, and not indicative of the literate aristocracy. Yet I'll venture a guess, and say that the average Roman noble was less like Octavian and more like his daughter Julia. When she was asked how she could have so many affairs and yet her children all looked like her husband, she replied that she took on new passengers only when the boat was already full. Roman society was anything but staid.

As for Priam's death, and the way his headless trunk lies on the beach, that's a reference to Pompey. During the Civil War, retreating from the battle of Pharsalus (48 B.C.), Pompey flees to Egypt where he is murdered by order of the Pharoa. His head is chopped off as a trophy for Caesar, and his body left unburied by the shore. This was considered an affront to Roman nobility, as it was the policy in that day that no foreigner could kill a Roman without massive repercussions. It's one more reminder to the people in Virgil's time of the score they had to settle with Egypt, and it echoes the Dido Cleopatra theme we've mentioned earlier.

I do love that ending of Dido's:

Let him see the unmerited deaths of those
Around and with him, and accepting peace
On unjust terms, let him not, even so,
Enjoy his kingdom or the life he longs for,
But fall in battle before his time and lie
Unburied on the sand!
Book IV, ln. 858-863, Fitzgerald translation

When I first read that, it rang true and reminded me of nothing so much as an angry voicemail message an ex would leave on an answering machine. It has the strength of real feeling, of passion, and anger. Only later would I put it into context with other invective poetry of the time:

Let earth deny its fruits to you, the rivers their waves,
let the winds and the breezes deny you their breath.
Let there be no heat to the sun, for you, no light for you
from the moon, let all the bright stars forsake your eyes.
Nor let fire or air offer themselves to you,
nor earth or ocean grant you a way.
Exiled, wander helpless, across the alien thresholds,
seek out scant nourishment with a trembling mouth.
Body never free of ills, mind of grievous sickness,
night be worse than day for you, and day than night.
Ibis, by Ovid, ln. 107-116, Translated by A.S. Kline
http://www.tonykline.co.uk/PITBR/Latin/Ibis.htm

This section of Ovid's Ibis is called The Denial of Benefits. It comes after the naming of his enemy, an invocation to the gods, and begins the Litany of Maledictions. The litany follows the same prayer form one would use to bless someone except with curses. It runs through an enormous list of ancient torments, often with examples from mythology. The invective even goes so far as to claim that if Ovid should die before his enemy, then he will haunt him from beyond the grave. This vow of undying hatred is interesting. We will see Dido making good on a similar vow when Aeneas meets her again in the underworld and she turns away from him without speaking. Ovid and Dido deliver the curse in much the same vein. They know that it's useless to scream, but they cannot help themselves. It's purgative, an outlet for their suffering, but ultimately futile.

One thing I've been thinking about in Book IV is that Aeneas' mother and patron is Venus (Goddess of Love), but that his antagonist is Juno (Goddess of Marriage). It makes sense that Aeneas' first wife Creusa should die, and that his marriage to Dido should be marred. Then when Aeneas comes to Latium his marriage to Lavinia should not be smooth sailing. He falls in love easily enough, but he can't seem to seel the deal.

Also, before we pass into book V, I'd like to recommend Christopher Marlowe's Dido, Queen of Carthage to everybody. I think he tells the story even better than Virgil, except for his ridiculous ending.

Good thoughts Mortal. Glad you joined the discussion. Yes, I know, I exaggerated with the word "shocked." I think I said that earlier. But it does violate Roman values, whether everyone followed them or not.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Ah yes. The second point I wished to make was how Virgil integrates the political implications of Dido's love. The balance of power that she had masterfuly created to hold Africa under Carthiginian sway collapses.

I don't have the time to type out the entire passage, but we can see that her willing to marry someone, after she had soothed the political concerns around her causes rebellion and war. Again to Romans, a nation obsessed with governing their empire, this was a warning and a value professing self sacrifice for the good of the nation. It is a sacrifice that Aeneas makes and she can't.

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The neglected kingdom does suffer. Carthage doesn't just lose its allies, it also stops working. Dido's distraction changes the city that was compared to an industrious hive of bees in Book I to a lazy, half-finished metropolis. Vergil writes:

The towers no longer rise, the youth are slack
In drill for arms, the cranes and derricks rusting,
Walls halt halfway to heaven.

It's hard to imagine how an amorous queen could prevent her workers from completing their tasks, but it's poetry--it doesn't have to make sense. I suppose it's meant to indicate that the workers follow her example and grow lax with their duties. In any case, you're right Virgil. Dido's lack of devotion has many political repercussions.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Those are the two points. But I must say there is such fabulous writing in this Book. Dido's confrontation with Aeneas, her exasperations, the funeral pyre, and Juno's sympathy. Let me type out that last part, because Fagles does a beautiful translation. Dido has just burned herself on the pyre:

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So, is Book II still your favorite Book?

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

I don't believe that Dido's impiety would have shocked the Roman's of Virgil's day

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

let's not forget that he writes just after Catullus and contemporary with Ovid and his Amores.

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Yeah, I begin to think that Dido is a rather tame, conservative portrayal of love in comparison with some of Vergil's contemporaries. Vergil places restrictions on Dido's love, and constantly channels her affection back within appropriate lines. While Catullus expresses a desire to be with Lesibia simply for the pleasure of intimacy, Dido's love is much more fixated on other more respectable gains, such as a child. At the height of her conflict with Aeneas, she even suggests motherhood as an acceptable consolation for losing her lover:

At least, if but a child were born
Of me to you, before you were gone,
At very least, a little son
Still to recall your face to me. (327-30)

In a situation which should bring out Dido's need for Aeneas, Vergil diverts Dido's passion into a more acceptable desire, motherhood. Far from insulting sensibilities, this should have been comforting to them.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

As for Priam's death, and the way his headless trunk lies on the beach, that's a reference to Pompey.

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Yes, there probably is an allusion here to the legend associated with Pompey's death. Comparing Priam's demise to that of another well-known and gruesome death would heighten the outrage and disgust readers would have for the way they treat Priam's body. I don't think that Vergil is making a political point or drawing any other parallels between Priam and Pompey, though. I know some scholars and critics have tried to argue Priam is Pompey, but that doesn't make much sense. After all, that would make Pyrrus like Caesar. Most likely, the allusion is made to compare the dishonorable fate of Priam's body with Priam's unfortunate corpse.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

I do love that ending of Dido's:
When I first read that, it rang true and reminded me of nothing so much as an angry voicemail message an ex would leave on an answering machine.

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That's funny. Have you had many angry, Dido-like phone messages? I wish my ex-girlfriends could be so eloquent.

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Originally Posted by Quark

The neglected kingdom does suffer. Carthage doesn't just lose its allies, it also stops working. Dido's distraction changes the city that was compared to an industrious hive of bees in Book I to a lazy, half-finished metropolis.

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I hadn't noticed that passage before. Thank you for pointing it out.

As exercise the bees in flow'ry plains,
When winter past, and summer scarce begun,
Invites them forth to labor in the sun;
Some lead their youth abroad, while some condense
Their liquid store, and some in cells dispense;
Some at the gate stand ready to receive
The golden burthen, and their friends relieve;
All with united force, combine to drive
The lazy drones from the laborious hive:
With envy stung, they view each other's deeds;
The fragrant work with diligence proceeds.
from Aeneid, Book I, Dryden Translation
http://classics.mit.edu/Virgil/aeneid.1.i.html

That's just like this passage from Virgil's Georgics:

Others the while lead forth the full-grown young,
Their country's hope, and others press and pack
The thrice repured honey, and stretch their cells
To bursting with the clear-strained nectar sweet.
Some, too, the wardship of the gates befalls,
Who watch in turn for showers and cloudy skies,
Or ease returning labourers of their load,
Or form a band and from their precincts drive
The drones, a lazy herd. How glows the work!
from Georgics, Book IV, ? Translation
http://classics.mit.edu/Virgil/georgics.4.iv.html

In those passages, the bees are a symbol of asexuality, industry, and empire. And as long as we are talking about Virgil and his bees, I might as well mention how Dante uses the same image for his angels:

Even as a swarm of bees, that sinks in flowers
One moment, and the next returns again
To where its labour is to sweetness turned,

Sank into the great flower, that is adorned
With leaves so many, and thence reascended
To where its love abideth evermore.

Their faces had they all of living flame,
And wings of gold, and all the rest so white
No snow unto that limit doth attain.

From bench to bench, into the flower descending,
They carried something of the peace and ardour
Which by the fanning of their flanks they won.
from Paradiso, Canto 31, Longfellow Translation
http://www.everypoet.com/Archive/poe...dante_x_31.htm

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

That's just like this passage from Virgil's Georgics:

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Yeah, you can find much of the imagery in the Aeneid in its precursor the Georgics. The bees get a whole Book in the Georgics, I think. In it, Vergil sets up both of the bee similes we get in the Aeneid. The first comparison he makes is between laborious workers and drones. Later, in both poems, the poet associates two hives fighting with a war between states.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

In those passages, the bees are a symbol of asexuality, industry, and empire. And as long as we are talking about Virgil and his bees, I might as well mention how Dante uses the same image for his angels:

Even as a swarm of bees, that sinks in flowers
One moment, and the next returns again
To where its labour is to sweetness turned,

Sank into the great flower, that is adorned
With leaves so many, and thence reascended
To where its love abideth evermore.

Their faces had they all of living flame,
And wings of gold, and all the rest so white
No snow unto that limit doth attain.

From bench to bench, into the flower descending,
They carried something of the peace and ardour
Which by the fanning of their flanks they won.
from Paradiso, Canto 31, Longfellow Translation
http://www.everypoet.com/Archive/poe...dante_x_31.htm

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It's been years since I've read Dante, so it's a little difficult to comment on the similarities. Just looking at what you've quoted, though, I can say a few things. First, both poets use the bee simile to show work being done assiduously. A difference between the two could be that the passage from Dante is much more sensual than the one in the Aeneid. Vergil focuses on the idea of work being done in general, while Dante uses the simile to describe how sweet the work is.

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Originally Posted by Quark

So, is Book II still your favorite Book?

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Yes, I still marvel at Book II.

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Yeah, I begin to think that Dido is a rather tame, conservative portrayal of love in comparison with some of Vergil's contemporaries. Vergil places restrictions on Dido's love, and constantly channels her affection back within appropriate lines. While Catullus expresses a desire to be with Lesibia simply for the pleasure of intimacy, Dido's love is much more fixated on other more respectable gains, such as a child. At the height of her conflict with Aeneas, she even suggests motherhood as an acceptable consolation for losing her lover:

At least, if but a child were born
Of me to you, before you were gone,
At very least, a little son
Still to recall your face to me. (327-30)

In a situation which should bring out Dido's need for Aeneas, Vergil diverts Dido's passion into a more acceptable desire, motherhood. Far from insulting sensibilities, this should have been comforting to them.

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Well, Dido is a mature, responsible woman in charge of a kingdom. She's not some flitty young girl.

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Yes, there probably is an allusion here to the legend associated with Pompey's death. Comparing Priam's demise to that of another well-known and gruesome death would heighten the outrage and disgust readers would have for the way they treat Priam's body. I don't think that Vergil is making a political point or drawing any other parallels between Priam and Pompey, though. I know some scholars and critics have tried to argue Priam is Pompey, but that doesn't make much sense. After all, that would make Pyrrus like Caesar. Most likely, the allusion is made to compare the dishonorable fate of Priam's body with Priam's unfortunate corpse.

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I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense to me.

So on to Book V?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, Dido is a mature, responsible woman in charge of a kingdom. She's not some flitty young girl.

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Well, yeah, but she's also considered one of the paragons of passionate love in ancient literature.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

So on to Book V?

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We're just starting to get conversation going again. I don't know if we should move on just yet. Besides, Book V only lists the funeral games without there being much action. I would be surprised if our discussion on that Book lasted more than a couple of days. I know it seems like we've been moving slowly, but that's only because the conversation has been so sporadic. When we start getting more people posting regularly things should start moving faster. The rest of the Aeneid should go by quickly. Books V and VII don't have a great deal to discuss, and we can talk about the conquest chapters (Books VIII-XII) as a group since they relate one story.

This reading has encouraged me to look into other epics. I will continue reading today.

Hmm, I was going to post something about Dido's guilt, but I don't know if anyone's still here. Where did everyone go?

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

This reading has encouraged me to look into other epics. I will continue reading today.

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I don't read many epics, so my advice probably isn't the best. Of course, that won't stop me from giving it. If you like epics for their grand style, I would suggest reading Paradise Lost since it's difficult to find a more high-blown style than Milton's. If you're entranced by the action so far in the Aeneid, you should just keep reading. Books VIII through XII have battle after battle. Some people find the mythological world of the Aeneid interesting, and enjoy stories that explore this world further. Those readers often go for the other epics of Latin and Greek literature. Homer's two are always popular, but there's also many others from Rome's Silver Age which are very similar to the Aeneid. Outside of that advice, I'm scared to say much more. The recent discussion about what qualifies as epic has cow'd the better part of me. I'll just stick with the only confirmed epics that I know of.

Oh, and where are you in the Aeneid? Have you caught up with us at Book IV?

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Originally Posted by Quark

Hmm, I was going to post something about Dido's guilt, but I don't know if anyone's still here. Where did everyone go?



I don't read many epics, so my advice probably isn't the best. Of course, that won't stop me from giving it. If you like epics for their grand style, I would suggest reading Paradise Lost since it's difficult to find a more high-blown style than Milton's. If you're entranced by the action so far in the Aeneid, you should just keep reading. Books VIII through XII have battle after battle. Some people find the mythological world of the Aeneid interesting, and enjoy stories that explore this world further. Those readers often go for the other epics of Latin and Greek literature. Homer's two are always popular, but there's also many others from Rome's Silver Age which are very similar to the Aeneid. Outside of that advice, I'm scared to say much more. The recent discussion about what qualifies as epic has cow'd the better part of me. I'll just stick with the only confirmed epics that I know of.

Oh, and where are you in the Aeneid? Have you caught up with us at Book IV?

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I enjoy all three (writing, action and myth). I think it's Virgil's writing that makes the action interesting; the content shouldn't shock the modern reader, so the writing becomes important. The Romans and Greeks differ in how they name the Gods, and I am only familiar with the Greeks, so it has taken some adjustment.

Aeneas and his soon to be bride have retreated into the cave.

I have made out a list of epics, which includes both Homer and Milton. Thanks for heads up on Milton's style.

Nick - I think you would enjoy The Illiad best.

Quark - Feel free to post something on Dido's guilt. I'm interested. I'll probably get to Book V over the weekend.

I just finished the fourth book and it's my favorite so far.

I wanted to quote a passage about Aeneas silencing his heart and heeding his mind, which is filled with the warning of the Gods, but I can't seem to locate it. It seems, to be pious one must go against their humanity. One must make an allegiance to either the Gods or their fellow man. I have never read Ayn Rand, but have this general idea about her theories. If this is objectivism, I shall take no part in it.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Nick - I think you would enjoy The Illiad best.

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Thanks, I plan on reading it during the summer. I am going to conquer the epic this year.