The Aeneid Discussion Group

Hey there. I am starting this thread to discuss Virgil's The Aeneid. It is one of the great epics of ancient times, and it is one of the most influential works in history. Written at the end of the first century B.C., it came at the end of the crises of the Roman Republic where Augustus firmly gained control of the empire and created the governing system of the Principate. Virgil (Publius Vergilius Maro), who had already established his greatness of Roman poetry through his previous works of The Eclogues and The Georgics, looked back at the chaos of that century and tried to make sense of it by creating an epic of the founding of Rome and linking the founding to his contemporary events. In addition, he looks back to Homer as a model for his epic, and while there are several parallels to Homer, it is quite different as well. I hope many will join me in this read.

I will be reading the relatively new Robert Fagles translation ( http://www.amazon.com/Aeneid-Virgil/dp/0670038032), but i have previously read the Robert Fitzgerald translation (http://www.amazon.com/Aeneid-Virgil/dp/0679729526). I will say that I loved the Fitzgerald translation but since Fagles did such a great job on translating both The Illiad and The Odyssey, I just had to check out how he does with a Latin text. So without further ado, post your thoughts as we go. I will try to post thoughts on each book of the 12 books, but do not feel constrained by that.

Finally here's an image of the Robert Fagles's translation:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...3L._AA240_.jpg

The sketch on the book's cover is Aeneas, the hero of the epic, carrying his elderly father through burning city of Troy. That act tells us so much of the character of Aeneas.

First lines of "The Aeneid" in Latin and translation..."ARMA virumque cano, Trojae qui primus ab oris/ Italiam fato profugus Lavinaque venit/ litora--multum ille et terris jactatus et alto/ vi superum, saevae memorem Junonis ob iram,/ multa quoque et bello passus, dum conderet urbem/ Inferretque deos Latio--genus unde Latinum/ Albanique patres atque altae moenia Romae." ...and the English translation....................................... ............"ARMS, and the man I sing, who forc'd by fate,/ And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate,/ Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan shore./ Long labors, both by sea and land, he bore,/ And in the doubtful war, before he won/ The Latian realm, and built the destin's town;/ His banish'd gods restor'd to rites divine, And settled sure succession in his line,/ From whence the race of Alban fathers come, And the long glories of majestic Rome." .......This translation done by no less than John Dryden of a work he could read in the original text (the Aeneid written 19 B.C.E.) gives clear premise that the ancestors will be shown to be the aristocrats and gods of ancient Greece, society models for Virgil's Roman Empire.

I wanted to begin my reading this coming year with the ancient texts (Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Beowolf and so forth), but I bought a friend Invisible Man and read the introduction. Then the prologue. I am currently reading the second chapter. Maybe I will join you on Sundays, while I'm working at the book store; we have more than enough copies.

Wow! We're sold out. That's weird.

Arms and the man I sing, who first made way,
predestined exile, from the Trojan shore
to Italy, the blest Lavinian strand.
Smitten of storms he was on land and sea
by violence of Heaven, to satisfy
stern Juno's sleepless wrath; and much in war
he suffered, seeking at the last to found
the city, and bring o'er his fathers' gods
to safe abode in Latium; whence arose
the Latin race, old Alba's reverend lords,
and from her hills wide-walled, imperial Rome.
.by Theodore C. Williams (Juno equals the Greek god, Hera, queen of the Greek deities)

Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns
driven time and again off course, once he had plundered
the hallowed heights of Troy.
Many cities of men he saw and learned their minds,
many pains he suffered, heartsick on the open sea,
fighting to save his life and bring his comrades home.
But he could not save them from disaster, hard as he strove –
the recklessness of their own ways destroyed them all,
the blind fools, they devoured the cattle of the Sun
and the Sungod blotted out the day of their return. . . .

Translated by Robert Fagles (1996)

I SING of deadly dolorous debate,
Stir'd vp through wrathfull Nemesis despight,
Betwixt two mightie ones of great estate,
Drawne into armes, and proofe of mortall fight,
Through prowd ambition, and hartswelling hate,
Whilest neither could the others greater might
And sdeignfull scorne endure; that from small iarre
Their wraths at length broke into open warre.

These are the opening lines of Spencer's M U I O P O T M O S: or THE FATE OF THE BUTTERFLIE... a mock epic that clearly recalls the opening lines of Virgil's epic setting up a tale of war between the spider and the fly (or the butterfly, as the case may be).

Oh man, I'll certainly have to be in on a discussion that includes both the Aeneid and Muiopotmos (indeed I've spent the last week or so casually pondering whether I can find a way to write a dissertation on Muiopotmos somehow...alas thus far to no avail:p ). I've read the Aeneid more than once, and been through it recently for my exams, so I'm not going to re-read it along with the group but will happily join in whatever discussion emerges.

That opening line has got to be one of the most imitated, referenced and parodied in all of literature, with "to be or not to be" a possible close second. From Spenser, to Shaw, to the fellow in my first year Latin class who used to run around saying "Karma virumque cano," it seems as though no one can resist the impulse to make witty with the Aeneid's first three words.

Muses of LitNet, sing! of the famed lines written by Vergil,
Lines you preserved through the ages, a lasting witness of Roman
Glory, ambition, and pride, which endured the barbarians' fury,
Shadowy letterless times, and the whimsical errors of careless
Scribes, and became forefather to many a noble descendant,
Being itself a descendant of parents with fame everlasting.

:)

Wow, what a great start. Quasi has graciously sent me a web link of Virgil's biography: http://quotes-of-wisdom.eu/en/author/virgil/biography. Also Wiki provides a good background to Virgil and to the Aeneid. I also forgot to mention that we have The Aeneid here on lit net as a electronic book: http://www.online-literature.com/virgil/aeneid/. This is the John Dryden translation.

While re-reading the Aeneid's "book 1", especially a line like..."Besides, long causes working in her mind,/ And secret seeds of envy, lay behind;" this reader wonder's who made up Virgil's audience. The answer... mostly aristocratic citizens, senators, generals, tax collectors, regional governors, patricians of all stripes. Could this group be more than 5% of the Roman population? Probably not. Taking this into account, you can view this epic as what is called today an "open letter" to the present and future elite of Rome.

omg I'm going to reread all my latin GCSE notes and then join in with this discussion; I Love the Aeneid!! We had to memorise huge chunks of latin and the English translation for our exam, and our teacher drew us a 'pictoral Aeneid' on the whiteboard nearly every lesson.

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

While re-reading the Aeneid's "book 1", especially a line like..."Besides, long causes working in her mind,/ And secret seeds of envy, lay behind;" this reader wonder's who made up Virgil's audience. The answer... mostly aristocratic citizens, senators, generals, tax collectors, regional governors, patricians of all stripes. Could this group be more than 5% of the Roman population? Probably not. Taking this into account, you can view this epic as what is called today an "open letter" to the present and future elite of Rome.

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Good point Quasi. I suspect it was even less than 5% of the population.

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Originally Posted by Lioness_Heart

omg I'm going to reread all my latin GCSE notes and then join in with this discussion; I Love the Aeneid!! We had to memorise huge chunks of latin and the English translation for our exam, and our teacher drew us a 'pictoral Aeneid' on the whiteboard nearly every lesson.

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Great Lioness. What's a pictorial Aeneid?

Excellent! I own The Aeneid in audio format (Robert Fagles's translation).

I'm not sure how useful this website will be, but virgil.org seems to be a good source to learn more about Virgil.

First off, let me say that I know nothing or little about this subject and I am sort of left in the dust....but, so far, what I have read interests me, and I will try to keep reading all of your posts. The poetry is grand. I am always hungry to learn new things, also.

Virgil, you did a fine job starting this thread. I like the way you posted the photo of the cover, of that particular translation...very helpful. Thanks for the knowledge that another translation is available on this site, also. :thumbs_up

I like the links to various sites, such as the biography of Virgil, thanks, Quasi, ....also very helpful. I will certainly read up on Virgil's biography, among other things and educate myself a little about this subject. Sadly, I greatly lack in my knowledge of Greek Mythology and history.

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Originally Posted by Dori

Excellent! I own The Aeneid in audio format (Robert Fagles's translation).

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Now this interests me. I would be interested in listening to this in the near future and will look into it. Did you buy it recently...any thoughts on how to find it, Dori?

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I'm not sure how useful this website will be, but virgil.org seems to be a good source to learn more about Virgil.

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Thanks, Dori, I will read this site, as well.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Now this interests me. I would be interested in listening to this in the near future and will look into it. Did you buy it recently...any thoughts on how to find it, Dori?

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I bought it about a year ago from Barnes and Noble. It was still available at the local (I should say nearest) Barnes and Noble not more than a week ago. Here's the link for it on Amazon.com: The Aeneid, audiobook.

If my eyes serve me right, I think Virgil posted the picture of the audiobook (the one I own) rather than the hardcover copy of the book (found here). I think I can make out "Unabridged ~ 10 CDs" at the top in the picture Virgil provided.

Thanks Dori, I have been reading the posts on Amazon - very interesting...I put the book into my "Wish List" and may buy it soon - really reasonable on there.

Well, I read Book I and let me put out some thoughts on the first few stanzas. Virgil emphasizes a number of things in that very first stanza. Obviously war, but also fate, destiny, the difficulties Aeneas bears, the rage of Juno, the founding of Rome, and the bringing of his gods there. These are all the themes that will be expanded upon. And as a method of getting into the exposition, Virgil asks the muse several questions that I find interesting:

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Tell me,
Muse, how it all began. Why was Juno outraged?
What could wound the Queen of the Gods with all her power?
Why did she force a man, so famous for his devotion,
to brave such rounds of hardship, bear such trials?
Can such rage inflame the immortals' hearts? (l.8-13)

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First it re-emphasizes the difficulties that Aeneas will bear, but it also shows how much of a play thing of the gods we humans are, even for a devout person as Aeneas. Does being devout really provide anything? And the other observation is the last question: can human emotions be inside the gods. The answer obviously is yes, but Virgil takes the stance that he doesn't know.

The exposition follows from these questions, and we see another interesting thing. Yes there is the line of destiny that stemmed from the judgement of Paris that led to the Trojan war and the fall of Troy. But we now have an additonal line of "history" that the Greeks never had in their epics: Aeneas and his men will found the city of Rome and come into conflict and destroy Juno's city of Carthage. The line of destiny will now lead into real, not mythic, contemporary history.

And following the exposition, we see the whims of the gods creating chaos to the sailing ships.

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With such thanks, swinging his [Aeolus] spear around he strikes home
at the mountain's hollow flank and out charged the winds
through the breech he made, like armes on attack
in a blasting whirlwind tearing through the earth.
Down they crash on the sea, the Eastwind, Southwind,
all as one with the southwest's squalls in hot pursuit,
heaving up from the ocean depths huge killer-breakers
rolling toward the beaches. The crews are shouting,
cables screeching--suddenly cloudbanks blotting out
the sky, the light of day, from the Trojan's sight
as pitch-black night comes brooding down on the sea
with thunder crashing pole to pole, bolt on bolt
blazing across the heavens--death, everywhere
men facing instant death. (l. 97-110)

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And just as sudden, sixty lines later when Neptune realizes what has happened on his seas, he puts and end to the turmoil and brings stability:

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Quicker than his [Neptune] command he calms the heaving seas,
putting the clouds to rout and bringing back the sun. (l.167-8)

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I posted this on another site which also held a discussion of The Aeneid. Perhaps it will be of some use:

Below I will list some online texts which can either be used entirely (in other words, instead of actually buying it), or in part for reference purposes.

The Aeneid, Theodore C. Williams translation, Verse
The Aeneid, John Dryden translation, Verse
The Aeneid, A. S. Kline translation, Verse

The John Dryden trans. uses archaic language, and the A. S. Kline trans. reads the smoothest out of the three online translations. But the decision is up to whomever will decide to use the links.

Both David West's prose translation (if you want to read prose) and Robert Fagle's verse translation are the better choices, from what I've seen (both of which aren't available online).

First it re-emphasizes the difficulties that Aeneas will bear, but it also shows how much of a play thing of the gods we humans are, even for a devout person as Aeneas. Does being devout really provide anything?

Intriguing theme... the notion of man... even the most devout man... as being nothing but a plaything for the gods/God. The most obvious parallel that comes to mind is the Hebrew book of Job... not that in anyway I expect Virgil would have been aware of this work. I further wonder whether this concept of the all powerful toying with their "underlings"... even the most loyal... might also be rooted in Virgil's knowledge or experience of how the politicians and rulers of Rome operated... especially if one considers the supposed appropriation of the lands belonging to Virgil's family near Mantua in order to pay off the soldiers who had supported the cause of the Second Triumvirate (including Octavian) against the Liberators (Julius Caesar's assassins, Brutus and Cassius).

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

First it re-emphasizes the difficulties that Aeneas will bear, but it also shows how much of a play thing of the gods we humans are, even for a devout person as Aeneas. Does being devout really provide anything?

Intriguing theme... the notion of man... even the most devout man... as being nothing but a plaything for the gods/God. The most obvious parallel that comes to mind is the Hebrew book of Job... not that in anyway I expect Virgil would have been aware of this work.

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I was abut to say I do to know the Book of job, but then I realized you meant the real Virgil. :lol:

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I further wonder whether this concept of the all powerful toying with their "underlings"... even the most loyal... might also be rooted in Virgil's knowledge or experience of how the politicians and rulers of Rome operated... especially if one considers the supposed appropriation of the lands belonging to Virgil's family near Mantua in order to pay off the soldiers who had supported the cause of the Second Triumvirate (including Octavian) against the Liberators (Julius Caesar's assassins, Brutus and Cassius).

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Interesting thought. But this notion of of humans as playthings of the gods goes back to even before Virgil. But it does have a parallel to the politicians, whether intended or coincidence.

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I was abut to say I do to know the Book of job, but then I realized you meant the real Virgil.

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This could make things a tad confusing. :lol: I for one plan to address the lit. net Virgil only as Virg. on this thread, and the original Virgil as Virgil in an attempt to avoid confusion...that is unless our Virgil minds.

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Intriguing theme... the notion of man... even the most devout man... as being nothing but a plaything for the gods/God. The most obvious parallel that comes to mind is the Hebrew book of Job... not that in anyway I expect Virgil would have been aware of this work. I further wonder whether this concept of the all powerful toying with their "underlings"... even the most loyal... might also be rooted in Virgil's knowledge or experience of how the politicians and rulers of Rome operated... especially if one considers the supposed appropriation of the lands belonging to Virgil's family near Mantua in order to pay off the soldiers who had supported the cause of the Second Triumvirate (including Octavian) against the Liberators (Julius Caesar's assassins, Brutus and Cassius).

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I think Job makes for an interesting comparison with the Aeneid opening, though perhaps the parallels only go so far. Certainly both the book of Job and Virgil's epic are addressing the problem of the devout man who suffers and is helpless before forces greater than himself. The nature of the divine power, however, is rather different in the two texts. In Job he's supposed to accept that there is something about God that is unknowable, and that it is not his place to ask about God's motives, and the story is told in such a way that the reader also is in a position to be awed by the mystery of God's ways. I don't really get the sense that Job is necessarily God's plaything, as much as a sense that we don't really know what God's motives are. He may just be playing about and testing Job, or there may be some really good reason for Job's suffering related to some highly complex universal plan. We just don't really know.

I suppose one imagines that Aeneas himself is similarly in the dark about the gods' motives, but certainly the story is told in a way that makes the machinations of the gods clear to us. This is where I think you're right to bring up the parallel in human politics. These gods behave like immensely powerful men rather than like mysterious and unknowable higher beings. It seems perfectly right to characterize them as sometimes looking upon humans and their fates as playthings. As Virg. points out, certainly this view of the Gods was something Virgil was picking up from Homer and others, so the format wasn't solely inspired by political events of his own time. However, the idea of the Gods behaving in this manner from Homer on must surely have been inspired by the observation powerful men and their influence of those below them, which can be universal to any time. Certainly Virgil's own knowledge of these goings on would make him more effective writing in this traditional vein.

Thinking of the influence of Homer, it is interesting to note that Odysseus' troubles similar sea faring troubles in the Odyssey do at least start because actions of his own ticked off the gods. Virgil does change things by making Aeneas a much more personally blameless hero. His travails are not as much the cause of his bad actions in the present as they are the cause of the actions of those in the past, and the prediction of things that will take place in the future. This does indeed, bring us back to a Job-like parallel, as you pointed out.

I was abut to say I do to know the Book of job, but then I realized you meant the real Virgil.:lol:

Yes... this could lead to some real problems. You might find yourself getting a swollen head when one of us makes some comment about Virgil's "brilliance" or "genius". On the other hand... you might imagine yourself the center of a personal attack when somebody suggests that Virgil is just far too pretentious... or a pompous windbag.:lol:

Petrarch's Love... we could refer to THE Virgil by his full name, Publius Vergilius Maro... or Virgilius for short.:brow: Rather like your own dilemma in discussing Petrarch's Canzoniere.:rolleyes: Luckily, we're not likely to be reading anything by St. Luke in the near future.

Petrarch's Love... I guess that the link I see between the way in which the Greco-Roman gods play with the mere mortals and that of the Book of Job lies more within the behind the scenes frame story. Ever since reading Stephen Mitchell's marvelous introduction to his translation of Job, I have been unable to ignore the almost Kafkaesque absurdity and cruelty. God calls all his minions together then brags, "did you notice my servant, Job?" The tempter (or the Accuser) cannot help but fall for the bait... and for the sake of a bet, if you will, he's given permission to do as he will. After the death and destruction of almost all that Job cares for the Lord then states (in a manner almost nauseating) "See? He's holding on to his wholeness even after you made me torment him for no reason." which is followed by the calm cruelty of "All right. He's in your power; just don't kill him." When the Lord eventually does deign to answer Job's question, "Why", the answer is an almost visionary splendor conveying the impossibility of ever fathoming God's intentions... but then I find myself wondering... how far removed is this from Kafka's tales of the unknowable... mysterious ways of the powers that be? Can we really expect the Lord to come out and admit, "Well Job, you see... it all began with this little bet..."? But I digress... Virgil... Virgilius...Publius Vergilius Maro... that's our man.:thumbs_up

Virg. I have been trying to post here since you started the thread!!! I am going to be optimistic and attempt to read the Aeneid....very slowly might I add because classes start Friday for me.

I've read the major parts of The Aeneid in my world literature course last year, and I loved all I read. Unfortunately I do not like the way it was discussed in class, so I am looking forward to participating.

Everyone here sounds so darn intelligent though grrrr...;) by the time I actually get around to posting on litnet my brain has already been fried for the day!!!! But I shall pursue...:D

stlukesguild I keep seeing the quotations in your signature and I keep wanting to say how much I love them!!!! Thank you for sharing them, they're great!

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Certainly both the book of Job and Virgil's epic are addressing the problem of the devout man who suffers and is helpless before forces greater than himself. The nature of the divine power, however, is rather different in the two texts. In Job he's supposed to accept that there is something about God that is unknowable, and that it is not his place to ask about God's motives, and the story is told in such a way that the reader also is in a position to be awed by the mystery of God's ways. I don't really get the sense that Job is necessarily God's plaything, as much as a sense that we don't really know what God's motives are. He may just be playing about and testing Job, or there may be some really good reason for Job's suffering related to some highly complex universal plan. We just don't really know.

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Oh but Job is a plaything of God and we the reader do know what His motives are. As St Luke's quotes subsequent to your post, God is in a way betting with Satan on Job's faith. The difference is that Job as a character doesn't know why God is afflicting him, as opposed to Aeneas who certainly knows of his duty to found Rome and I believe he understands that Juno is set against him.

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Thinking of the influence of Homer, it is interesting to note that Odysseus' troubles similar sea faring troubles in the Odyssey do at least start because actions of his own ticked off the gods. Virgil does change things by making Aeneas a much more personally blameless hero. His travails are not as much the cause of his bad actions in the present as they are the cause of the actions of those in the past, and the prediction of things that will take place in the future. This does indeed, bring us back to a Job-like parallel, as you pointed out.

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Good point about the similarity and differences to The Odyssesy.

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Originally Posted by grace86

Virg. I have been trying to post here since you started the thread!!! I am going to be optimistic and attempt to read the Aeneid....very slowly might I add because classes start Friday for me.

I've read the major parts of The Aeneid in my world literature course last year, and I loved all I read. Unfortunately I do not like the way it was discussed in class, so I am looking forward to participating.

Everyone here sounds so darn intelligent though grrrr...;) by the time I actually get around to posting on litnet my brain has already been fried for the day!!!! But I shall pursue...:D

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Well, it would be nice to have you join us Grace. I think Janine is somewhat interested herself. I understand that school work must come first. What translation did you use in class by the way?

Virgil, forgive the delay in this posting; it resulted from something that always seemed missing in the English translation (Dryden, in this case). First let me say that when making our own translation of many key parts of this Latin epic, back in the day, we were so busy trying to get the parts translated correctly that the impetus of the work was almost considered peripherally. There are variations on the theme for each deity, a concept that seems illusive because of common and present religious assumptions that most readers bring to this experience. The oft mentioned gods such as "the tyrant Aeolus", god of the winds and "the haughty Juno", overloard deity, should not be percieved as just a god among many others, but rather consider them active forces of nature in Virgil's world and like natural forces were fickle, fair and unfair, conspiring against or assisting Aeneas, his warriors and his enemies. The reader encounters so many deities as to dismiss them as the ravings of a primative religion. It is helpfull to look for a mindset that includes these entities as real to Virgil as earth, air, fire and water. Since the Latin text is so compressed compared to modern translations, alot of what we would call spin or connotation comes across somewhat watered down. Here is a usefull comparison........................................ ............ ["Aeolus haec contra: "Tuus, O regina, quid optes explorare labor; mihi jussa capessere fas est. / Tu mihi quodcumque hoc regni, tu sceptra Jovemque/ concilias, tu das epulis accumbere divum/ nimborumque facis tempestatumque potentem." ] lines 76 to 80 inclusive.... And the English translation (Dryden) ["To this the god: "'T'is yours, O queen, to will / The work which duty binds me to fulfil. / These airy kingdoms, and this wide command, / Are all the presents of your bounteous hand: / Yours is my sov'reign's grace; and, as your guest, / I sit with gods at their celestial feast; / Raise tempests at your pleasure, or subdue; / Dispose of empire, which I hold from you."] Note the length of the English compared to Latin; it shows at least that some intensity is lost in translation.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, it would be nice to have you join us Grace. I think Janine is somewhat interested herself. I understand that school work must come first. What translation did you use in class by the way?

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I used the Robert Fagles Translation and I loved it!

If I can't find that translation at the library I will cave and buy it (I've been wanting to buy it since it came out anyway). Turns out they are going to have a paperback edition of the Fagles translation coming out at the end of this month.

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

Virgil, forgive the delay in this posting; it resulted from something that always seemed missing in the English translation (Dryden, in this case). First let me say that when making our own translation of many key parts of this Latin epic, back in the day, we were so busy trying to get the parts translated correctly that the impetus of the work was almost considered peripherally. There are variations on the theme for each deity, a concept that seems illusive because of common and present religious assumptions that most readers bring to this experience. The oft mentioned gods such as "the tyrant Aeolus", god of the winds and "the haughty Juno", overloard deity, should not be percieved as just a god among many others, but rather consider them active forces of nature in Virgil's world and like natural forces were fickle, fair and unfair, conspiring against or assisting Aeneas, his warriors and his enemies. The reader encounters so many deities as to dismiss them as the ravings of a primative religion. It is helpfull to look for a mindset that includes these entities as real to Virgil as earth, air, fire and water.

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Very good point Quasi. But it is interesting in the first book that while the winds destroys and sinks the ships Neptune (or was it Venus) reconstructs them and undos the damage, presumably bringing back to life drowned sailors. That's actually beyond just natural forces.

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Since the Latin text is so compressed compared to modern translations, alot of what we would call spin or connotation comes across somewhat watered down. Here is a usefull comparison........................................ ............ ["Aeolus haec contra: "Tuus, O regina, quid optes explorare labor; mihi jussa capessere fas est. / Tu mihi quodcumque hoc regni, tu sceptra Jovemque/ concilias, tu das epulis accumbere divum/ nimborumque facis tempestatumque potentem." ] lines 76 to 80 inclusive.... And the English translation (Dryden) ["To this the god: "'T'is yours, O queen, to will / The work which duty binds me to fulfil. / These airy kingdoms, and this wide command, / Are all the presents of your bounteous hand: / Yours is my sov'reign's grace; and, as your guest, / I sit with gods at their celestial feast; / Raise tempests at your pleasure, or subdue; / Dispose of empire, which I hold from you."] Note the length of the English compared to Latin; it shows at least that some intensity is lost in translation.

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Yes I see. I wish I could really read Latin. It's a shame we have to rely on translators so desperately. I don't have my editions handy (I'm at work right now) but I wonder how Fagles and Fitzgerald handle that section. I will check when I get home.

http://www.unrv.com/culture/major-roman-god-list.php and this paragraph about Roman Religion circa 600BC, just about the time the Aeneid Epic was placed. "The gods of the Roman pantheon began taking on the forms known today during the dynasty of the Etruscan kings in the 6th century BC. These gods, Jupiter (Zeus), Juno (Hera), and Minerva (Athena), were worshiped at the grand temple on the Capitoline Hill. As Rome's power grew and expanded throughout the known world, the Roman Empire came into contact with the cultures and religious beliefs of many cultures. The Romans, happy to absorb and assimilate any culture they encountered thereby reaping the benefits of both its wealth and religious influence, were a mosaic of belief systems. Foreign gods and customs not only played major roles but were also given temples and priesthoods within Rome itself. The goddess Cybele, a Phoenician god was adopted during the Second Punic War to counteract any benefit that Hannibal may have gained. Even after his defeat, Cybele remained an integral part of the Roman system. Another very popular foreign god was the Persian god Mithra. Overwhelmingly supported in the Legions, this deity offered eternal salvation for the immortal soul and its popularity helped pave the way for the later Christian cult whose similarities made its adoption less difficult."

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Originally Posted by Virgil

What's a pictorial Aeneid?

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Well, basically he'd just illustrate as we translated. And if we got stuck, we'd have a bit of a pictionary session to try to work it out. It was very fun, and meant that we all knew the story really well! Except he was the worst artist I've ever seen (Dido was basically a squiggle with a crown on top)

My English teacher just assigned 1984 by G. Orwell, so I will have to postpone The Aeneid until next week at least. I also started reading Those Who Love by Irving Stone which is 700+ pages long.

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Originally Posted by grace86

Everyone here sounds so darn intelligent though grrrr...;) by the time I actually get around to posting on litnet my brain has already been fried for the day!!!! But I shall pursue...:D

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:lol: I don't think I could justifiably make this claim (of sounding intellegent, that is). This is largely a learning experience for me (I hope ;) ).

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Originally Posted by grace86

stlukesguild I keep seeing the quotations in your signature and I keep wanting to say how much I love them!!!! Thank you for sharing them, they're great!

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Seconded. :)

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Originally Posted by Dori

My English teacher just assigned 1984 by G. Orwell, so I will have to postpone The Aeneid until next week at least. I also started reading Those Who Love by Irving Stone which is 700+ pages long.

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Wow, how school can interfer with such fun reads! :bawling: :lol: I must also refrain because I decided I am loading myself up with too much again this month and I really do need a bit of a rest or to proceed with my own direct interests, at my own leisurely pace.

Dora, you will enjoy reading those books, most likely.
I want to check out more Irving Stone, eventually. Which ones did you particularly like? You said your mother owns a number of them. I only read "The Agony and the Ecstasy" years ago, when a friend gave me a copy. I loved it! Can you tell me - didn't Stone write a similar book on "Van Gogh"? However, I may be mixing up authors. I thought it was called "Lust for Life" but not at all sure - that just popped mysteriously into my feeble brain.;)

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:lol: I don't think I could justifiably make this claim (of sounding intellegent, that is). This is largely a learning experience for me (I hope ;) ).

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Yeah, really, there are some on the forum that seem to think they are intelligent (not talking about anyone here so you can all be relieved), but their intelligence may be questionable. Anyway, we are all intelligent in our own way....
Grace, you are smarter than you give yourself credit for!

I like those signatures, too.

It might be fun/interesting/useful to discuss some of the legends that are mentioned in Book 1 which also occur in Homer. When I first read the Aeneid, I found myself often stopping and trying to remember the relevant passages in Homer, so maybe this will help if someone has the same tendency.

Lines 39-45, Ajax son of Oileus -- See Odyssey, Book 4, lines 499-511 for a description of how Ajax the lesser (not to be confused with Telamonian Ajax) died. Homer doesn't relate the reason behind Athena's anger. According to legend, Ajax tore Cassandra from Athena's temple (she had run to it for refuge) so forcefully that he broke the wooden image of Athena which she was clinging to; according to later legend, he raped Cassandra in front of Athena's image.

Lines 96-97, son of Tydeus (ie Diomedes) -- See Iliad Book 5, lines 297-351. Aeneas is referring to the episode where Aeneas fights Diomedes, and is overcome (Diomedes was on a streak at the time) but miraculously rescued in the nick of time by Aphrodite (Venus) and Apollo. This seems to be a common experience for Aeneas. Later (Iliad Book 20), Poseidon miraculously rescues him from Achilles in the nick of time. While Poseidon is debating whether or not he should save Aeneas from death, he prophecies that Aeneas will "escape" and that he and his sons will rule the Trojans. Poseidon's prophecy may be one of Virgil's reasons for choosing Aeneas to be his hero.

Line 99, son of Aeacus (ie Achilles) and Hector -- Hector's death at the hands of Achilles is described in Book 22 of the Iliad.

Line 100, Sarpedon -- Patroclus kills Sarpedon in Iliad Book 16, lines 419-507. In this account, there is a debate between Zeus (Jupiter) and Hera (Juno) that receives a lot of attention, about whether or not he should defy fate and save Sarpedon. One of the most famous passages in all of Homer is Sarpedon's speech in Book 12 of the Iliad (lines 310-328). In it he urges his fellows to fight because that (he asserts) is the obligation of kings to their subjects. He also uses the certainty of death as a reason to fight: since you can't escape your fate, you might as well go out and die gloriously.

Lines 469-473, Rhesus -- The story of Odysseus and Diomedes raiding the Thracian camp at night and killing Rhesus and stealing their horses is in Book 10 of the Iliad.

Lines 474-478, Troilus -- Homer only makes passing mention of Troilus. In Greek sources, he is a boy killed early in the war by Achilles either on Apollo's altar or in an ambush.

Lines 479-481, Trojan women -- This is described in Iliad Book 6, lines 286-311. The Greeks were getting the better of the Trojans so Helenos, a seer, addressed Aeneas and Hector, instructing Hector to go to the city, as Aeneas takes over the fighting, to instruct the women to make sacrifices at Athena's temple and lay robes on her idol's knees. This is the reason why Hector left the fighting to have his famous moment with his wife and son at the end of the book.

Line 482, the goddess just turned away and held her eyes fixed -- Maybe this detail was suggested by a remark by Homer (line 311, Book 6, Iliad): "but Pallas Athena turned her head up [in refusal]".

Lines 483-484, three times around the Trojan wall he had dragged Hector -- After Achilles kills Hector, he ties his body to his chariot by the ankles and drags his body behind it, but in modern editions of Homer, there is no mention of Achilles dragging Hector around Troy's walls three times. Homer does describe Achilles dragging Hector in front of Troy's walls (where he killed him) back to the Greek camp (Book 22), and around Patroclus' body three times in Book 23, and around Patroclus' tomb three times in Book 24 of the Iliad.

Line 484, sold the corpse for gold -- That is, Achilles allowed Priam to ransom Hector's body back (Iliad Book 24).

For many of the legends that do occur in Homer, Virgil's main source was probably Homer, but he also drew on a lot of traditional stories. Anyways, since probably no one found my hexameters very amusing, I thought I'd post something that might be a little more useful, especially to people who like Homer's epics. :)

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Originally Posted by Janine

Wow, how school can interfer with such fun reads! :bawling: :lol: I must also refrain because I decided I am loading myself up with too much again this month and I really do need a bit of a rest or to proceed with my own direct interests, at my own leisurely pace.

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Yeah, school does have a way of putting a knot in things... I have been looking forward to reading 1984, despite any comments I've picked up from this side (that is, those concerned with the "overratedness" of the book), so it is not hard to postpone any other reading. :)

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Originally Posted by Janine

Dora, you will enjoy reading those books, most likely.
I want to check out more Irving Stone, eventually. Which ones did you particularly like? You said your mother owns a number of them. I only read "The Agony and the Ecstasy" years ago, when a friend gave me a copy. I loved it! Can you tell me - didn't Stone write a similar book on "Van Gogh"? However, I may be mixing up authors. I thought it was called "Lust for Life" but not at all sure - that just popped mysteriously into my feeble brain.;)

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:lol: It's Dori, not Dora.

My friend's mother owns a lot of them. I've only read The Agony and the Ecstasy, but after I finish Those Who Love, I will be moving onto The Origin, a book about the life of Charles Darwin. And yes, you are correct; Stone wrote a book about Van Gogh called Lust for Life. My friend's parents are the sort of people who have boxes upon boxes of books, and therefore if they own any of his other works, they are lost among them.

I enjoy our discussions, Janine, so perhaps we could continue via PM? I'm not one for getting too off-topic, although, as you've seen, it does seem to happen. :p :lol:

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Originally Posted by Dori

Yeah, school does have a way of putting a knot in things... I have been looking forward to reading 1984, despite any comments I've picked up from this side (that is, those concerned with the "overratedness" of the book), so it is not hard to postpone any other reading. :)



:lol: It's Dori, not Dora.

My friend's mother owns a lot of them. I've only read The Agony and the Ecstasy, but after I finish Those Who Love, I will be moving onto The Origin, a book about the life of Charles Darwin. And yes, you are correct; Stone wrote a book about Van Gogh called Lust for Life. My friend's parents are the sort of people who have boxes upon boxes of books, and therefore if they own any of his other works, they are lost among them.

I enjoy our discussions, Janine, so perhaps we could continue via PM? I'm not one for getting too off-topic, although, as you've seen, it does seem to happen. :p :lol:

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Yeah, Dori - oh geez, sorry, now Dora definitely sounds like a girl, sorry, slipped when typing...
We will definitely communicate via PM (I will answer this one in there...I will write you first)...give me a evening to clear out my PM box; it is now 99% full...eek! They might ban me from emails; horrors!:bawling:

I always have to fight my tendency to dismiss the Aeneid as merely derivative of Homer. One thing I enjoy in the Aeneid that is absent from Homer is the intimate connection with the present time (present, that is, with respect to Virgil). For example, I really enjoyed the prophecy by Jupiter in Book 1 recounting the sequence of events that will lead from Aeneas' son Iulus to Julius Caesar. Also, the interaction between the Trojans and Dido brings to mind the eventful history between Rome and Carthage. There is some minor aetiology in Homer, but the events in the Homeric epics have little connection with current events. In the Aeneid, on the other hand, the central focus of the narrative is on the events that established the current state of affairs. The Iliad was about how the wrath of Achilles nearly brought the Greeks to ruin and the Odyssey was about how Odysseus returned home and restored order, but the Aeneid is about how Rome was founded. I think this focus sets the Aeneid apart from the Homeric epics.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Petrarch's Love... we could refer to THE Virgil by his full name, Publius Vergilius Maro... or Virgilius for short. Rather like your own dilemma in discussing Petrarch's Canzoniere. Luckily, we're not likely to be reading anything by St. Luke in the near future.

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:lol: Hmm. maybe I'll try switching to Virgilius for the real Virgil. Would make it more abundantly clear. Maybe I'll also start up a thread on the Canzoniere simultaneous to our discussions here, just to drive everyone crazy. :D

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Petrarch's Love... I guess that the link I see between the way in which the Greco-Roman gods play with the mere mortals and that of the Book of Job lies more within the behind the scenes frame story. Ever since reading Stephen Mitchell's marvelous introduction to his translation of Job, I have been unable to ignore the almost Kafkaesque absurdity and cruelty. God calls all his minions together then brags, "did you notice my servant, Job?" The tempter (or the Accuser) cannot help but fall for the bait... and for the sake of a bet, if you will, he's given permission to do as he will. After the death and destruction of almost all that Job cares for the Lord then states (in a manner almost nauseating) "See? He's holding on to his wholeness even after you made me torment him for no reason." which is followed by the calm cruelty of "All right. He's in your power; just don't kill him." When the Lord eventually does deign to answer Job's question, "Why", the answer is an almost visionary splendor conveying the impossibility of ever fathoming God's intentions... but then I find myself wondering... how far removed is this from Kafka's tales of the unknowable... mysterious ways of the powers that be? Can we really expect the Lord to come out and admit, "Well Job, you see... it all began with this little bet..."? But I digress... Virgil... Virgilius...Publius Vergilius Maro... that's our man.:thumbs_up

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Yes, of course you're right about the framing story. For some reason the speech from the whirl wind is always what really sticks in my mind from Job and I sort of forget about the opening, which probably just goes to show that God has a wicked PR man.:lol: So yes, of course both you and Virg. are right that God is on some level toying with Job. All the same, I think there's a very different sense about the God in Job versus the gods of the Aeneid. Even if you're focusing on the undoubted senseless cruelty of God in Job, or have a bit of trouble swallowing His answer (which I'm sure nearly all readers do, at least from time to time) I still think there's more of a sense that God is acting in a somewhat enigmatic or, to phrase it another way, an irrational fashion. Perhaps the difference that I'm really dancing around here, though is the nature of the relationship between man and the almighty. The God of Job is a creator, and as such there's this move to hold himself lofty and apart and unknowable, but at the same time he's really closer, more invested in man because it is His creation. The whole story is about hammering out this relationship between Creator and Created, and even the bet--though it could be attributed to God's ego--is caught up in proving something about the nature of man, which I think in some perverse way says something about His level of investment in man.

The gods of the Aeneid, on the other hand, do not make as much of an attempt to be so aloof or mysterious in their actions. They come down to earth, mingle with men, and are sometimes even the fathers and mothers of men. At the same time, however, the Virgilian gods, though they appear closer, also seem less invested in mankind in the way that God in Job is. Yes, they have their favorite cities and their favorite heroes etc., but there's more a sense that they have a whole social thing of their own going on around Olympus and that they mess around with human affairs like a game of chess. It’s clearer to everyone involved I think, what kind of relationship the gods have to man. By this I don't mean to say that the gods aren’t unpredictable and flighty, or that Aeneas might not be just as frustrated as Job, but that it’s fairly open that the gods do have this unpredictable toying relationship with men, whereas in Job there’s a lot more questioning going on about what exactly the relationship is. I think that’s probably more along the lines of what I was thinking when I said that Job doesn’t strike me as much as a plaything. Anyway, I’ll stop rambling so that we can go back to discussing the Aeneid.

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Originally Posted by Quasi

he oft mentioned gods such as "the tyrant Aeolus", god of the winds and "the haughty Juno", overloard deity, should not be percieved as just a god among many others, but rather consider them active forces of nature in Virgil's world and like natural forces were fickle, fair and unfair, conspiring against or assisting Aeneas, his warriors and his enemies.

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Yes, doubtless the gods of the Aeneid (and Homer, and other Greco-Roman epics) are often personified natural forces. I think what gives these stories their enduring power is that the gods are inspired by a combination of the powerful and unpredictable forces of nature and--as St. Luke's suggested earlier--of the powerful and unpredictable forces of human nature in the high and mighty.

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Originally Posted by Virg.

Very good point Quasi. But it is interesting in the first book that while the winds destroys and sinks the ships Neptune (or was it Venus) reconstructs them and undos the damage, presumably bringing back to life drowned sailors. That's actually beyond just natural forces.

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Could you give me some line citations for the passage you're thinking of, Virg.? I don't remember a point when Neptune miraculously reconstructs ships or brings people back to life. I thought he just calmed the seas and helped the remaining ships and survivors to shore. Maybe I'm forgetting though.

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Originally Posted by bluevictim

It might be fun/interesting/useful to discuss some of the legends that are mentioned in Book 1 which also occur in Homer. When I first read the Aeneid, I found myself often stopping and trying to remember the relevant passages in Homer, so maybe this will help if someone has the same tendency.

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Thanks for the handy footnotes, blue. By the way, I appreciated your hexameter. The muses of Lit. Net don't get invoked nearly enough. ;)

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Everyone here sounds so darn intelligent though grrrr... by the time I actually get around to posting on litnet my brain has already been fried for the day!!!! But I shall pursue...

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Do hope you join in, Grace. You're just as intelligent as the rest of the bunch, it's just that some of us have a head start having read the Aeneid a few times already.