Maybe this question is quite silly, but still... could someone explain that why Winston "loved Big Brother" in the end? I get that torture can force people to betray each other, but i don't get how it can change a person entirely?
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Maybe this question is quite silly, but still... could someone explain that why Winston "loved Big Brother" in the end? I get that torture can force people to betray each other, but i don't get how it can change a person entirely?
As you said, it's basically about torture. Being tortured over and over doesn't just affect your body, but your mind also. You'll become whatever's necessary to avoid that situation, you'll admit all your previous mistakes (even if they aren't any), and embrace whatever thing is imposed to you by your captor.
True..a continuous suffering could change a person entirely..even a person who at the first place put hopes to God, might eventually leave his/her faith coz there seem no point in trusting a divine being when he/she need it most. It could be an excees of denial due to the torture but it may also considered as the cleverest way to survive.
O'Brien said that Thoughtcriminals are released after they are "corrected" and at the moment that they love Big Brother, that is when they are killed by Thinkpol. With the last sentence of 1984 comes Winstons death. The instant he loves Big Brother, the Party has succeeded and thinkpol would kill him
hold on a sec... now that you people are talking about 1984
question: along with Big Brother.. Goldstein and The Brotherhood also do not exist, right??
also.. who the heck wrote that infamous "the book"??
I would say that a version of "the brotherhood' does exist inside of the proles. It is not actually called that but is probably more of a small group of proles who are semi-self educated and have a thought of revolution.
"The Book" according to O'Brien was written by members of the inner party. He even wrote some of it.
Jonus
Hey there. Welcome back. :)
I may be wrong, but: I think that Winston came to look upon suffering as shameful during his torture, as seen in the fact that he broke down and wept when he looked himself in the mirror after he had been starved for days. (he was almost like a skeleton). He despised his body, and ultimately his own beliefs.
I think Winston was mentally "overwhelmed" by the strength of the party which he witnessed during hours of torture - in other words, he succumbed unconciously to the philosophy of "might is right". The party is stronger than him, therefore he must be wrong. I heard that the purpose of the modern physicological torture is to feel the victim feel helpless and incomparably weak compared to the torturer.
His torture also made him feel absolutely dependant on the Party, shown when he said that he felt as though O'Brien was like a invincible protector, shielding him from suffering (since he controls when to activate the electric-shocker), a man with noble intentions. This looks almost like a copy of Big Brother. So, at this point he is not only pretending that he loves the party, but actually beliving in the party's good intentions.
The main point that 1984 taught me through example is the old German addage:
1000 flies eat poop. 1000 flies can't be wrong.
Big Brother + the continual war was a creation of their administration. It was a means of absolute control over a nation and it's people by a small + powerful few. Regardless of how good a system is, it is never infalliable. People like Winston would slip through. People like Winston needed to be "re-educated". If kept to an extremely small minority, a perpetual "snapshot" of society could be preserved, with those in power benefitting.
It's exactly what we're seeing right now in the US. Not nearly as bad, but the similarities are growing. OBL could, in essence, be viewed as Emmanuel Goldstein. The faceless enemy of society. People are, inherantly proles. We are mindless automatons that do not generally care about anything unless it affects us personally. Terrorism is great. Terrorism is essential the "perpetual war" waged from Eastasia + Eurasia. Whenever one sees a problematic shift in the thinking of the proles, the enemy is shifted to maintain the level of trust + disallusionment. All we need is a Big Brother... But we've always had him haven't we? Jesus Christ. Defender of the American way....
God Neo-Cons scare me. haHA
I'm just going to again remind people that discussion of politics is not allowed in these forums. There are a few locked topics about this already you can refer to.
`Politics' can be discussed if they relate directly to the content of George Orwell's `fictitious' works only. Discussion of current political climate is not allowed. I'll keep this topic open if people can stick to the particular works of George Orwell though.
The torture was mainly responsible for Winston's physical "rehabilitation". His intellectual conversion had more to do with obliteration of reality. The Party has so effectively learned how to manipulate reality, to make their truth the absolute truth, that Winston wholeheartedly believes their doctrine. They annhilate any possibility of independent thought. His emotional conversion, however, was largely due to what he experienced in Room 101. After he screams Julia's name in his sleep, O'Brien realizes that he still harbors a hatred of the Party and a deep-rooted love for Julia. By taking him to Room 101 and confronting him with his worst fear, they prove to him that they are infinitely stronger, that they can make him betray even the most beloved of friends. Up until this point, his acceptance of the Party was largely a ploy to escape torture, but after he betrayed that which he held above the party, that which he thought they would never get to, he truthfully and wholly loved Big Brother.
Dunpeal, I also got the impression that Goldstein and The Brotherhood do not actually exist. Orwell never explicitly states this, but he does hint at it (heavily) by writing that no one can quite remember when Big Brother came into power, and no one has ever seen him (or Goldstein). Goldstein, like BB, is most likely a creation of the Party...so that its members can have a scape goat upon which to focus all of their hatred, which is in actuality the discontent they feel about their lives.
Something went wrong. Iīll try again.
[QUOTE=waxmephilosophical]". His intellectual conversion had more to do with obliteration of reality. The Party has so effectively learned how to manipulate reality, to make their truth the absolute truth, that Winston wholeheartedly believes their doctrine. They annhilate any possibility of independent thought. His emotional conversion, however, was largely due to what he experienced in Room 101.
--
Up until this point, his acceptance of the Party was largely a ploy to escape torture, but after he betrayed that which he held above the party, that which he thought they would never get to, he truthfully and wholly loved Big Brother.
[QUOTE]
I agree. But I also think it is important to remember that that the story is a work of fiction , a history that serves to prove a point. Winston loves Big Brother so Orwell can show us that the system of 1984 canīt be beaten. You canīt fool it. It will get you. Big Brother sees You. If Winston had gotten away with "bluffing" - not giving in totally - Orwell would have left us with a little bit of hope. The novel would not have been as dystopic. For me Winstons coneversion makes me wonder about all the others who love Big Brother - and what kind of stories they carry with them. The grey mass of obidient people might be individuals with stories like Winstons.
Besides this there also seems to be something that happens with people who perceive that they are powerless, and someone else have power. Some people in concentration camps started to try and make their clothes look like the guards, as much as possible. Some people who get abused will start to believe that the abuser is the one who is right, and that they deserve to be punished. It is a basic way of surviving, a way to make a world that have lost all meaning make sense again. We shun chaos and the vast void that is lack of meaning. Big Brother defines reality for Winston, in a way that gives his life meaning again, a meaning that he can bear to live with. Winston can not live with himself as a betrayer, as Judas. It to much pain, and without her it has no purpose anymore. It is easier to find new meaning as a disciple of Big Brother.
I agree with the many responses here that state Winston has become completely overwhelmed by the power of the state. Afterall, at any moment they could nab him and strap the rat cage back on his face. Utterly powerless, he succumbs and loves Big Bother at last because he believes he is nothing and the party is ALL. However, in reality, he still has the choice to defiantly commit suicide while still hating Big Brother. They would not be able to stop that. And he may even take a few party members with him when he goes. Sure, why not, a suicide bomber? That's what powerless people become when they have no options.
Nice try, but no cigar. I won't get into 21st century suicide bombers because A) it's not allowable under the no-politics rule, and B) it has no relevance anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by requiredfields
The whole point is that Winston no longer has any free will at all. None, nada, not even a teensy-tiny bit. He has no more individual will than your vacuum cleaner or toaster.
He is powerless to stop loving BB and he's most definitely powerless to think outside of the principles of Ingsoc. Suicide is a concept now beyond Winston's understanding - you wouldn't even be able to explain it to him.
In 2008 terms, Winston has been PWND.
haha, Atheist. You took the words right out of my mouth.
They helped him see the reason for living in the system!
My take on the ending to 1984 is a bit different to what most seem to believe. Personally I don't think that Winston meets his end with a bullet to the brain but rather Orwell seems to be saying that upon the moment when Winston is totally changed into a party member he is now as good as dead.
Also think about the many contradictions of Ingsoc. What biggest contradiction, and indeed best show of holding complete power over an individual, than to dangle the carrot of being executed for Thoughtcrime while all the time intending that the victim will live out the rest of their natural span completely in the image of a perfect Party member?
I'd actually say that's how the majority see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuggritHall
It's all about purity - no trace of unorthodoxy can be left. You have to think like O'Brien to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BuggritHall
:D
To answer the original question. perhaps it was stolckholm's syndrom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
Or just plain old fashion brainwashing. (although many believe that this concept is unscientific)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing
My personal opinion is simply that he broke. He chose the easy path, to love big brother. Everyone and everything breaks under enough pressure.
I think the whole point was that nobody will ever replicate what Winston went through, so an analysis of what it actually was is impossible. Anyway, the end result is what matters, but I can't see Winston being said to have made any choices in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imthefoolonthehill
I presume that 1984 applies to more than just socialist/communist states. Orwell implies that unbridled power in the hands of a few, whether democratic or communist, may harness modern technology to perpetuate its own power at the expense of all else. And that individuals will have very limited capacity to resist the state in the near future.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
These totalitarian states will demand and obtain an unquestioning patriotism, unquestioning compliance.
Is there more?
No, I'd say you have it spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladys
You can break it down to Lord Acton:
Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely
I think winston was taught/he learnt to love by being aware of his hate for bb. Initially I thought winston was right in wanting to overthrow bb, but then I realised winston was actually wrong in his attitude. By becoming aware of his reactions to bb in this unconventional manner, he learnt to be in the optimal way. It is futile and unproductive to hate, and sets the wrong example. Love is the ultimate way.
No. His mind was destroyed and replaced by what the Party wanted it to be. There was no choice, and the love is a perversion of what we know that emotion as.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
correct - his mind was destroyed. He was without mind. He stopped hating (a part of his mind). Premise here is the absence of mind is love. Winston underwent accelerated learning, whereas people in society dont get the near instant feedback he got after a thought, and so people continue ignoring habits of thought. Winston got questioned, and so attention and awareness was paid to his thinking.. that resulted in it being replaced with a superior mode of being - love. Just like if you pay attention to any task you do, you'll do it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
The party wanted it to be love which may be the message Orwell is delivering to the reader for how he realises the ultimate way to be is to any situation
That would be one of the strangest premises I've seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
No, I really think you have it completely wrong. The love that Winston displays towards BB is as false as a $3 bill. It has been implanted by the Party [O'Brien] and it is a perversion of love at the very best.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
Love requires free will, which Winston no longer has.
No, the message Orwell is delivering is that totalitarianism done right will include complete mind control and that the rulers will be able to subjugate even the most basic human emotions into whatever they choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
aspirer, you have to realize that it would no longer be winston, once that sort of "learning" occurs. what is happening to winston is de-humanizing. he is not being encouraged to look at the world in a new and healthy way. the absence of mind might be said to be love by some gurus, but that is really just (relatively benign) brainwashing--and a very marketable premise for a book in this high-speed, high-stress modern world!
winston is being taught that his thoughts and feelings are the property of the party. he is to become a "piece" of a whole. he will be disempowered, and the whole will get a little bit more empowered. at the very least, its methods won't be invalidated by his "individual" existence.
it is, of course, good to reappraise things from time to time, and to be as alert as possible to different perspectives. that can help us change, when we need to change. but this argument is a sort of "fig-leaf of virtue." such a truth is no excuse to re-program a person against their will. if the motives were good, there would surely be some way to carry out the "re-education" without resorting to torture. really, they should be able to verbally convince people of it's necessity and/or usefulness. if it's a good idea, then it would be able to survive in a rational debate. but the strong-armed, dehumanizing methods of the party invalidate the project that you are suggesting.
i believe the most advanced forms of love are enhanced by the individuality of those who feel it. big brother reduces individuality, and seeks a conforming, pliable populace. an automatic instinct to feel love, for anyone and everyone, is a wonderful ideal. but to accomplish such a thing via torture and mind-control betrays an underlying culture that knows nothing of love or respect of the individual. anyhow, such a complete surrender to no-mind is already accomplished to vary degrees by cockroaches, amoebas, and dogs. people are different, and things aren't so simple.
winston did not get a superior mode of being. like theAtheist said, he became conditioned to confuse his old notion of "love" with subservience to the pressures in his environment. as an individual, he died. he has been reduced to being another component in a machine that demands subservience.
Love perhaps, but in an empty shell.
Quote:
Things will happen to you from which you could not recover, if you lived a thousand years. Never again will you be capable of ordinary human feeling. Everything will be dead inside you. Never again will you be capable of love, or friendship, or joy of living, or laughter, or curiosity, or courage, or integrity. You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty, and then we shall fill you with ourselves.
Quote:
By the time we had finished with them they were only the shells of men. There was nothing left in them except sorrow for what they had done, and love of Big Brother.
Bill, great comment.
That sounds reasonable.Quote:
No, the message Orwell is delivering is that totalitarianism done right will include complete mind control and that the rulers will be able to subjugate even the most basic human emotions into whatever they choose.
Do you think though that Winston could choose to say "I love BB"? who can ever make you say those words? out of all the possible options of what to say, he realised and learnt and then said that sentence. There's pain from the Party (O'Brien) if he says or thinks anything (negative) else, and acceptance if he says he loves BB. Is there truth/ a message in that?
I see it as loving everything, even what some people hate (or what one previously hated), as the best way to exist in that environment. Forgiveness.
That is something Winston learnt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
Thanks for your perspective. Some thought provoking responses.
Agreed that the methods by the party are not optimal (using pain).
A distinction between humans and animals, insects etc is self-awareness - the capacity to realise ones shortcomings and replace them with a more intelligent way. What could one be more self-aware about then ones own thoughts? which though by cruel methods, did results in would you agree - the ideal attitude?
true the machine demanded subservience, and Winston instead of clashing, gave love. He was the machine/animal/insect/amoeba which are without self-awareness, now he is free.
what is more intelligent - living in a world hating or living in a world loving?
The question then is did he truly love BB? or was he forced to say those words? Did he believe the words he said?
Winston is not free. His spirit has been annihilated. He is no longer truly human, but an automaton. He has been programmed, as my computer has, to act in certain ways. One of those ways is to love Big Brother.
He believes the words he said, and he believes he utters them willingly. However, he has no more free will than a window or door. His words are sincere, but they are meaningless. If the Party told him tomorrow to hate Big Brother, he would do that, and with the same sincerity.
I think the ideal attitude (for real life) would be one in which an individual could speculate, trust, and distrust. To simply have love for everything would not be ideal, because we are in a world too complicated and nuanced for that. For example, it is good that we get sick and avoid food that would kill us if we ate it. If we are in the presence of a loud noise, it is best to cover our ears. If a virus infects us, we find ways to eliminate it. Propaganda-wielding despots are opposed. We protect ourselves.Quote:
which though by cruel methods, did results in would you agree - the ideal attitude?
Winston is right to resist, because the torture and re-programming are harming him physically and teaching him to accept lies about the world. In a perfect world (too perfect perhaps), it would, in theory be fine for everyone to completely love each other, no matter what. But I see no reason to believe that Big Brother (a rather prominent member of Winston's world) actually loves anyone or anything--unless abuse, torture, and distortions of reality are believed to be forms of love. By surrendering to Big Brother, Winston has not helped to bring about a world of universal love. He has, instead, fallen victim to a great debasement of the word "love." I think it's pretty obvious that torture, abuse, and the destruction of individuality are terrible precedents for any march towards a "better" or "more loving" world. An "ideal" society could do much better than that.
I have heard of a word called "agape," which refers to the sort of love aspirer seems to be talking about. I think this sort of love is wonderful and important, and that everyone should investigate it. But I think it would be foolish for us to give up our more personal, more individual, more-richly-filled-by-experience forms of love for our friends, mates, and families. A pre-disposition to love all others is a great idea, however, and I'm not really opposed to it. But that is different than the horrible reflex/habit that has been forced on Winston.
I think it is useful to think of people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, and their response to oppressive systems. They resisted and interfered with the efficiency and acceptance of the oppressing entities. They did not surrender. And I think they understood the love for others that you have been talking about. Winston was right to resist Big Brother because it is the single greatest impediment to love and respect of individuals in his world.
In a church or temple (or in our home, etc.) we might gain much by exploring the abstract ideas of universal oneness, and universal love. But, like many ideals, these could be abused by those who wish to deceive us and and control us. It seems to me that Big Brother is teaching Winston that an entity committed to violence against him should be loved. This love is made more important to him than his love for anyone or anything else. It follows that Winston would then believe that violence and torture were acceptable means for bringing more love into the world. If one is ready to believe that torture, pain, and disrespect for individuals can be an acceptable foundation for love, then I think one will have been prepared to commit (or accept) any crime against others. The word "love" will have come to have a contradictory ("doublethink") quality. Violence/harm to an individual becomes joined with "love" for the individual. It is, really, a destruction of love. The word "love" would have simply been re-defined by those with superior power.
So, no, I don't think Winston has achieved an ideal attitude--although the operators of the torture devices will, by necessity believe that they and Winston have achieved an ideal state.
By the way, I'm not sure why someone would come to Big Brother's defense here (maybe just a playful thought-experiment? ;)), but I think a VERY generous spirit should be careful not to invest itself too much in the "entrancing" writings/techniques of some self-help "experts/assistants." When the pressure builds, it can be tempting to find ultimate solace in "no-mind" and "living in the moment," but these states, when carried into daily life, can leave us quite vulnerable to outside suggestion. The torture carried out by Big Brother is a very obvious form of abuse/mind control, but sometimes religions, cults, governments, advertisers, gurus, door-to-door salesmen, website designers, etc. can be much more subtle and gentle in their deceit--even "friendly." And, I suppose, for some of them, their own commitment to an "ideal" might leave them blind to the detrimental effects they might happen to have on others in the real world. Again, I think "no-mind" and "living in the moment" can be useful strategies, but they should not be the only ones available to us.
Now, maybe more than ever, in a world containing more and more "virtuality," I think it is important for us to retain control over our thoughts and judgments, and not get carried away by out-of-place appeals to love or fear. We might be presented with some safe-seeming slippery slopes, but an all-out commitment to abstract ideals can damage our footing quickly in the presence of well-crafted come-ons.
Not so much forgiveness as the deranged and paralytic dread of horrific, non-stop torture.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
What about this quote from '84, the last line:Quote:
Originally Posted by mollie
"He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother"
Is that George Orwell/the narrator commentating or Winston thinking in your opinion?
sorry about the short answer to a well-thought out long passage by you(short on time at the moment)Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
surrender can be defined as the absence of resistance/fighting fire with fire etc so its more that I am seeing winstons manner/actions euphymystically and hopefully accurately and realistically according to what the author intended. Thats the current premise I'm providing rationale for.
A loving attitude towards BB goes further than hating it. How would you describe Winstons life now compared to before?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladys
This can be a description for before room 101,
but afterwards?
Before and early in Winston's residence in Room 101, he is understandably terrified of torture.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
Afterwards, he experiences an all-consuming, never-ending 'deranged and paralytic dread'...though this understates Winston's trauma. He's an empty shell.
just checked the online copy of 1984 (http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/22.html) couldnt find that quote, what chapter is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladys
there is 1 example of some positive feelings afterwards: "Winston, sitting in a blissful dream, paid no attention as his glass was filled up. He was not running or cheering any longer. He was back in the Ministry of Love, with everything forgiven, his soul white as snow."
aspirer, this is not a story about universal love. Enlightenment and universal love should be sought, not enforced by inescapable torture by a totalitarian entity.
Other people involved in the Orwell discussions are more expert than I am, but here are some quotes I found from Orwell (I've seen better ones regarding his intent, but these are two I found on short notice):Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
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"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it." (quote from a (pre-1984) 1946 essay "Why I Write" in The Collected Essays, Journalism and Letters of George Orwell Volume 1 - An Age Like This 1920–1940 p.23 (Penguin)
"..The scene of the book [1984] is laid in Britain in order to emphasize that the English-speaking races are not innately better than anyone else and that totalitarianism, if not fought against, could triumph anywhere." (From The Collected Essays, Journalism and Letters of George Orwell Volume 4 - In Front of Your Nose 1945-1950 p.546) (Penguin)
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There is no doubt that Orwell was opposed to totalitarianism, and that he intended 1984 to be argument against totalitarianism, with Big Brother as the totalitarian state. If you are reading 1984 as an example for a path to enlightenment, you are not understanding the author's intent. The error would be so great that I really wonder if you're just joking with us here...
Here's another Orwell quote:
" The great enemy of clear language is insincerity " ;)
A loving attitude towards Big Brother is the ultimate goal for Big Brother. It is not something that should have made any sense to Winston, and he was right to resist. In the end, he says and feels that he loves Big Brother, but it is a terrible outcome for Winston, the reader and for the world that the story takes place in. Big Brother had more power than Winston, and Big Brother used that power to control and enslave Winston. The ultimate power was found in destroying Winston's defenses to the point where Winston would believe that he loved Big Brother. It is a story of domination.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
Compared to before, Winston's life is worse. He has lost his love for his girlfriend. He has been forced to believe that 2+2=5. He has professed love for his torturer and abuser. His ability to correctly perceive and make judgments has been destroyed.
I believe that the quote is Winston thinking, but it is Orwell's intention that we the readers should be reading this with despair, realising that the cause of freedom is entirely lost, that there is no hope for humanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
Aspirer, Winston has been hideously abused. He has quite literally been frightened out of his mind. His grip on reality is gone. He believes that he loves Big Brother, but, when in his right mind, he hates him. He has won no victory. He loves Big Brother in the same way that a bear dances, to escape cruel treatment. What is most sinister about the Party's methods is that Winston actually believes this falsehood.
Yes, Winston's own life is more pleasant for him, personally, and means that he escapes death, at least temporarily. But his submission means that the Party has won, and Orwell is quite clear that the Party, in both its ends and its means, is thoroughly evil and hateful.
Aspirer, sorry for the confusion, that quote refers to my previous posts:Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer
AndQuote:
Originally Posted by Gladys
Finally, Winston is scarcely human and less than sane. You had written, 'Forgiveness. That is something Winston learnt'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladys
These 'positive feelings' are savage irony from the narrator, because Winston becomes nothing more than a crippled zombie: 'then we shall fill you with ourselves'.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspirer