Hip Hop Is Not Art

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Originally Posted by ghideon

"despite the myriad of differences what we share is our humanness."

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Originally Posted by genoveva

This thread is filled with lots of passionate opinions, and lots of food for thought. Yes, race is a sensitive issue...

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you know, i am beginning to feel a lot of love in this thread here. :D gimme big hugs you two! :D


VIRGIL: You are a mad genius where did you get this fine article?!?!?! Everyone following this thread should read that article in its entirety - it's just fabulous. the part i found especially interesting is how the hip-hop industry - which is comprised mostly of black rappers...i mean artists, objectifies women with their despicable portrayal of women as B***hes and Hoes and the industry's dumping millions into the making of cheap trashy videos that kids emulate and music award ceremonies worship with P-Diddy coronations circled by female dancers (aka performers) intoxicated with false hopes of launching a "real career" -- relegated to dance in sleazy outfits for back alley go-go's where, sadly, many will wind up hooked on heroin, after the conglomerates fold their tents and P-Diddys and J-Zs and M&Ms and Ludicrous's have long sunk deep into their Sodom and Gomorrah quicksand lives, alongside their money and bling-bling teeth and gaudy jewelry that i wouldn't let my cat wear; with stockpiles of drugs and cars, Cars, CARS and "Cribs" (it's all reported their videos and music, the art! :alien: )

the article's words:
"Black intellectuals, such as Cobb and Dyson, are enforcing that code of silence. They are also defending the sad status quo among poor black people. Added to the recipe is the intellectual defense of hip-hop — with music, videos and films — that excuses failure and even celebrates destructive, criminal "Gangsta" behavior such as violence, stealing to get 'bling-bling' and abusive treatment of women."

:blush:

ps
amen for women like Andrea Dworkin who continue to write fierce criticisms against the hip-hop and porn industries, institutions of domestic violence, etc.

i didn't mean to start a new thread...the posting system is disturbed because i posted this under dramasnot's "internalized racism" thread. but hey we can discuss hip hop if you like.

some questions that come to mind:
Is hip hop art or trash? POETRY OR GIBBERISH? to what extent does the industry have a "public responsibility" and why?

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

VIRGIL: You are a mad genius where did you get this fine article?!?!?! Everyone following this thread should read that article in its entirety - it's just fabulous. the part i found especially interesting is how the hip-hop industry - which is comprised mostly of black rappers...i mean artists, objectifies women with their despicable portrayal of women as B***hes and Hoes and the industry's dumping millions into the making of cheap trashy videos that kids emulate and music award ceremonies worship with P-Diddy coronations circled by female dancers (aka performers) intoxicated with false hopes of launching a "real career" -- relegated to dance in sleazy outfits for back alley go-go's where, sadly, many will wind up hooked on heroin, after the conglomerates fold their tents and P-Diddys and J-Zs and M&Ms and Ludicrous's have long sunk deep into their Sodom and Gomorrah quicksand lives, alongside their money and bling-bling teeth and gaudy jewelry that i wouldn't let my cat wear; with stockpiles of drugs and cars, Cars, CARS and "Cribs" (it's all reported their videos and music, the art! :alien: )

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Just came across it in my morning reading. I have a few web sites that compile commentary articles and editorials like that. I think that one came out of realpolitics.com. Like I said Juan Williams is an African-American. You might have come across him on NPR.

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

some questions that come to mind:
Is hip hop art or trash? POETRY OR GIBBERISH? to what extent does the industry have a "public responsibility" and why?

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When rap/hip hop (I'm not sure i know the difference) came out I thought it was inventive and cool. But two things ultimately turned me off. (1) the values it projects are appalling and repulsive. (2) It kind of gets monotous. There doesn't seem to be much variation. But I'm hardly an expert.

There is nothing inherently wrong with rap if it would clean up its values. Now it doesn't have to be spic and span. Certainly rock isn't, but currently it is way out there. I enjoy the word play. I'm not saying it's poetry, but I don't consider many songs poetry. It can be if it were consciousy trying.

As to public responsibility, that's a tough call. Competing values of freedom of exression, freedom of the market place, and public decency. I certainly have leaned on the side of public decency in the past, and I probably would here too. It's not just decency issues; positive images for poor people would probably help them.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

It's not just decency issues; positive images for poor people would probably help them.

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i agree with you entirely. public decency must be a concern. Hip hop has defined a generation of thuggery that celebrates the idea that they don't care about 'nothin.' this is the "Whatever Generation," a swelling attitude among teens that they can slack off, listen to their hip hop, play video games while listening to their ipods, eat McDonalds, and go to colidge on a Pell grant. ugh.

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

i agree with you entirely. public decency must be a concern. Hip hop has defined a generation of thuggery that celebrates the idea that they don't care about 'nothin.' this is the "Whatever Generation," a swelling attitude among teens that they can slack off, listen to their hip hop, play video games while listening to their ipods, eat McDonalds, and go to colidge on a Pell grant. ugh.

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You probably understand the young kids better than I. I'm a bit removed from them. My one experience with a person who's into rap is actually positive. I hired this black young man from Newark a few years ago as an engineer out of college. I think he came out of Rutgers. Everytime I happen to sit in his car his radio churns out rap. And loud too. ;) But he's a great young engineer. I'm really proud of him. He might be a extra special though. I occaisionally have classical playing in the background at my desk and he's come by and recognized it and even talked opera. I was shocked. He said he had studied it in school. :)

Who is claiming hip-hop is art ?:idea:

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Originally Posted by IamMissingaLink

Who is claiming hip-hop is art ?:idea:

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the entire hip hop community claims it. they've completely erased "rapper" from their vocabulary because it smacks of old school run DMC, Public Enemy, Grand Master Flash, blah blah. being deemed an artist allows them to draw from the chi-chi and poor. yet the chi-chi culture wants nothing to do with those thugs, just spend a few bucks to watch 8-Mile or buy the latest Jay-Z/Linkin Park mix. ugh.

the court jester of hip hop would have to be Naz: he's a self-proclaimed artist/poet. all thugs i tell ya.

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Originally Posted by jon1jt

the entire hip hop community claims it. they've completely erased "rapper" from their vocabulary because it smacks of old school run DMC, Public Enemy, Grand Master Flash, blah blah. being deemed an artist allows them to draw from the chi-chi and poor. yet the chi-chi culture wants nothing to do with those thugs, just spend a few bucks to watch 8-Mile or buy the latest Jay-Z/Linkin Park mix. ugh.

the court jester of hip hop would have to be Naz: he's a self-proclaimed artist/poet. all thugs i tell ya.

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Kanye's aight :thumbs_up

I think Hip-Hop describes a body of work of great differences in quality. Now the question: Is Hip-Hop art? Before we look at the worst examples of this music genre it would be helpful to look at the best as well. I am certainly no expert about this but I have listened to DMX, Tupac, Snoop and liked much of their work.

Yes, almost all of the junk out there now...is junk. No argument. But that does not mean that it is not art. First, can we define hip-hop solely in terms of certain formal principles. In what ways is "H-H" distinct from all other forms of song/music?

The Dada movement certainly sent a punch to the art world when found objects were used as art pieces and displayed in galleries and some museums. There is the legendary example of the toilet in France, I believe. Also I doubt there would ever have been an Andy Warholl if the dada artists had not taken the risks of challenging the formal definniton of what is trash and what is art.

There is a difference between saying that a particular category of work is not art or is poor art or pop culture art or any of a dozen different labels. Nobody would argue, I assume, that literature is not an art form. However, when Stephen King was given the Pulitzer(?) there was a huge argument within the awards committee about whether or not he should even have been considered. This question came up again when Charles Johnson was given the National Book Award for Middle Passage.

My own personal deal is this...I am sick of the same bs other people have already mentioned. But on the other side of this coin there was a time in my life when all I listened to was Me Against The World one of Tupacs most important albums. Tupac is considred to be one of the greats of HH and I have to say that his music has had a definite and positive impact on me. He is well worth listening to for those who have not heard him before;for those who have not heard the best Hip Hop; or for those who love powerful music.:thumbs_up

Hip Hop grew out of Rap which actually has a goes back to the late 50s and 60s/70s music/poems of The Last Poets, Amira Braka and Gill Scott Harron (sp?) among others and can really be traced to black cultural uses of words/language/poetry in the cities long before MTV.

After looking again at the above decrying of hip-hop music and culture I just stopped and thought "Uh...this is sounding so much like what one generation was telling another generation back when Elvis started his pelvic thrusts" Cries about cultural degredation and cries that we need to stand firm about certain values.

I can just picture folks sitting in front of the tv watching Mr Ed or Leave It To Beaver as their sons and daughters were rocking to You Aint Nothing But A Hound Dog.

Gee...some think Tupac and Elvis are both alive and living in the tropics some where.:idea:

I made my stance on rap music clear in this thread. Hip hop is fine music - if it wasn't for the degrading lyrics, misogynism, hateful themes and base, shallow ways of thinking, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

"Hip hop" certainly can be "art," but the way it is commonly presented and created prevents it from being so.

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Originally Posted by Tupac Shakur

It's like I tell my niggaz, keep your eyes on these *****es
They love to G a nigga young dumb and gettin riches
What the **** you think a trick is nigga
Nigga done stick and wet his d**k
and then get tricked out all his riches by a -- *****!
I'm here to school you to the rules of the game, it'll cost ya
Think you alla that just cause she let a nigga toss her
It's like a mother****in priveledge
So don't give up your conversation, give that ***** your 7 digits
When she call ya, ask that tramp whassup
And if she hesitate, nigga hang up, worrrd up
And let that ***** meditate to the dial tone
And call me when you're ready to bone, and it's on
A mother****ing mack tonight
Stay that stay strapped cause my raps is tight
You ****in punks, I hate you snitches
Went against the grain and the game to be fake *** *****es

(God, damn! You can't just hit them niggaz with that game
and expect them to accept it; girl your heard me it gets skanless.
But we gonna kick this **** like this here)


I can't stand it, hoes talkin bout they got a man
**** all I wanted her to do is suck my D**K
So how about hittin a mother****er on my pager
Busy now ***** but you can give me the pussy later
Fly how I fade her, played her like a game of Sega
****in with the player that done made her, huh
And I ain't sleepin caught you creepin for my money
Got the d**k and now you get the pistol honey (*****)
So get the bozack, knockin hoes back, keep my dough stacked
So where the mother****in hoes at?
Punk niggaz can't fade the mack, livin fat
Gettin paid to rap, it's like that, you mother****in *****es

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I am posting these lyrics of another song by Tupac. I do not have any argument that condemns the blatant, offensive sexism in rap or hip-hop. It is a very serious issue.

But Tupac, in particular, really struggled in many ways as regards his art and its message. He claimed a Thug identity but also really is still seen as having made tremendous contributions to the black community. I know that Eric Michael Dyson is regarded as a hot-headed Lefty and so on and in some ways I agree. But folks may be suprised by some of his work where he really does take the black community to task. He wrote a book about Malcom X in which he points out critical errors in Malcom's theory and practice...one of which was homophobia.

Tupac grew up in a black revolutionary family that was deeply connected to the Black Panther movement. His mother was a member but also, later on, became a serious addict and wound up in prison. Tupac's relation to black power/revolutionary-radical politics and its theory/practice was complicated by the rise of Gangsta culture. One point that Dyson makes, and I think he is on solid ground here, is that there is a real confusion in the US in general between criminal activity and rebels/militancy. It was easy for Shakur, growing up during the era that he did (the crack epidemic, the enormous increase in inner city gang violence...) to take on a Thug identity and confuse it with a well thought out, reasoned political stand. I offer no excuses for his decisons, songs...Each one is accountable for their lives. I am simply trying to offer some information that may provide a useful context for the discussion.

The song below is actually a very good example of the tension between criminality and community. It certainly reveals Tupac as more then just another typical rapper. There is some real cultural crticism being expressed below...as well as a powerful defense of how young black women are used, abused within his own culture and people.


"Brenda's Got A Baby"

Brenda's got a Baby
Brenda's got a Baby

I hear Brenda's got a baby
But, Brenda's barely got a brain
A damn shame
Tha girl can hardly spell her name
(That's not our problem, that's up ta Brenda's family)
Well let me show ya how it affects tha whole community
Now Brenda never really knew her moms and her dad was a
junky
Went in death to his arms, it's sad
Cause I bet Brenda doesn't even know
Just cause your in tha ghetto doesn't mean ya can't grow
But oh, that's a thought, my own revelation
Do whatever it takes ta resist tha temptation
Brenda got herself a boyfriend
Her boyfriend was her cousin, now lets watch tha joy end
She tried to hide her pregnancy, from her family
Who didn't really care to see, or give a damn if she
Went out and had a church of kids
As long as when tha check came they got first dibs
Now Brendas belly is gettin bigger
But no one seems ta notice any change in her figure
She's 12 years old and she's having a baby
In love with tha molester, whos sexin her crazy
And yet she thinks that he'll be with her forever
And dreams of a world with tha two of them are together,
whatever
He left her and she had tha baby solo, she had it on tha
bathroom floor
And didn't know so, she didn't know, what ta throw away and
what ta keep
She wrapped tha baby up and threw him in tha trash heep
I guess she thought she'd get away
Wouldn't hear tha cries
She didn't realize
How much tha tha little baby had her eyes
Now tha babys in tha trash heep balling
Momma can't help her, but it hurts ta hear her calling
Brenda wants ta run away
Momma say, you makin' me lose pay, tha social workers here
everyday
Now Brenda's gotta make her own way
Can't go to her family, they won't let her stay
No money no babysitter, she couldn't keep a job
She tried ta sell crack, but end up getting robbed
So now what's next, there ain't nothin left ta sell
So she sees sex as a way of leavin hell
It's payin tha rent, so she really can't complain
Prostitute, found slain, and Brenda's her name, she's got a baby

Baaaaaaaaby

(don't you know she's got a baby)
(don't you know she's got a baby)
(don't you know she's got a baby)
(don't you know she's got a baby)
(don't you know she's got a baby)
(don't you know she's got a baby)

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Originally Posted by ghideon

After looking again at the above decrying of hip-hop music and culture I just stopped and thought "Uh...this is sounding so much like what one generation was telling another generation back when Elvis started his pelvic thrusts" Cries about cultural degredation and cries that we need to stand firm about certain values.

I can just picture folks sitting in front of the tv watching Mr Ed or Leave It To Beaver as their sons and daughters were rocking to You Aint Nothing But A Hound Dog.

Gee...some think Tupac and Elvis are both alive and living in the tropics some where.:idea:

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ah, there you are, its my dear friend, ghideon! how are ya, pal? i thought you'd gone given your last post sounded so final, dreary even. your whole rant about whether civic dialogue really mattered in the end. do you know that Socrates would be very furious with you if he heard you say that?! i take the opposite position, actually. i think all people who participate in a dialogue are very open to changing their opinions. it's just that our personal belief system resists. so perspectives must evolve, and dialogue facilitates that. or it's at least a nice idea. :lol:

the fundamental difference between the music of Elvis and Tupac is how it affected people. it's true parents were shaken listening to this strange man who stood on his toes with those boppy hip-swinging moves and leg gesticulations to "Jailhouse Rock"! (Did he just say, "Jail", dear?) yeah, parents of that era freaked. but people danced to Elvis and often they smiled. they had a real interest in learning dance moves, enthralled by the sound of this wild Memphis cat!

when i hear tupac, i hear rage; i see hate, i see a snarl, a sneer, a smugness, a human being who spits in the face of the world, who basks in hate and debauchery. i see guns and the glory in murder - a rage against the machine; a disdain for all authority, including parents. sure, kids of the 1950s snuck out at night to spend a few hours at the local dance with boys, have a few drinks, but they weren't thinking about guns and 'doing a drive-by. no, the children of Elvis were by and large good kids. it was still an age of innocence, despite the shifting times. there's a difference, a big one.

I found an interesting article it's called the Metaphorical Conceptions of Hip Hop Music by Scott Crossley:

"Many hip-hop critics are rightly concerned, however, with what they see as the hyper-commercialization of rap music by the corporate record industry. (6) They also malign the influence of dominant commercial concerns on the aesthetic and political values of rap music. Many also find fault with commercialized rap's neglect of political, social, and racial consciousness, African American linguistic traditions, and its development as a viable art (Gladney 294, 304, Powell 2002). But even Ice Cube, who glorifies violence, materialism, and misogyny in his lyrics, insists that his music is fundamentally socially responsible and that his use of vulgarities helps to communicate this responsibility to communities that would otherwise be disinterested (Ogbar 170). Other critics say that gangster rap, the major offender in the commercialization of rap music, is a self-styled product of "the ghetto." As such, it purposefully reproduces the exaggerated "Blackness" of African American ghettoes and the destruction there and should therefore be seen as an accurate and symbolic replica of the urban African American experience (De Genova 106). The commercialization of rap music and the ownership of many large record labels by African Americans and the distribution of money to African American artists, producers, executives, and business managers have increased the success of many African Americans, but have contributed little to the improvement of the social reality of substandard housing, medical care, and education that affects half of African American children and accounts for a quarter of African Americans under the control of the justice system (Tate 11-12).

In essence, for better or for worse, rap music is one modern response to the social and economic ailments of the collective African American community, which include joblessness, disempowerment, and poverty (Smitherman 1997: 5) Young members of the hip-hop generation find themselves essentially in an antagonistic relationship with the institutions that attempt to structure and control their lives. Law enforcement, school systems, and popular media all identify them as internally dangerous elements of urban America, and this identification leads to the social construction of rap as also fundamentally unsafe (Rose 1991: 279). As a result, hip-hop culture is often viewed by mainstream society as impoverished, and the evidence used to support this claim is rap. In the minds of many within and outside hip-hop, this culture is affiliated with unemployment, violent crime (including the high incarceration rates that accompany it), drug abuse, fierce materialism, and the objectification of both men and women (Powell 2002). It is my contention that these topics, being both intensely emotional and problematic to hip-hop culture (and consequently corresponding favorably to Sperber's Law), have become centers of metaphoric attention within the community.

More importantly, I believe that an evaluation of the relative metaphors found in gangsta' rap can be used to better explain and understand the social history of the hip-hop generation and to reveal the underlying conceptual system formulated by the same. (7) This conceptual system was generated to structure hip-hop reality and give it meaning. The identification and classification of this conceptual system can also give both the dominant culture and the subculture a better understanding of the hip-hop generation. Using this understanding, activists, community leaders, politicians, and civil servants might more efficiently meet the challenges that the hip-hop generation faces. At a minimum, this knowledge may help them approach the problems faced by contemporary, urban African Americans with a clearer awareness of the experiences faced by the same.

Perhaps the most immediate experience that members of the hip-hop generation encounter is their neighborhood. As stated earlier, the hip-hop generation has created numerous metaphorical references for the areas in which they live or about which they produce art, virtually none of them positive. Critic Nick De Genova brands the ghetto of rap music as a "space of death" and also as a space of "survival and transcendence." It is the "heart of Blackness" (119). In this sense, Black urban neighborhoods are mythically emblematic of the distance American society has not covered in its effort to end segregation. African Americans as constructed in gangsta' rap lyrics remain strongly segregated from their White counterparts In neighborhoods that are ripe with criminal gangs, drug abuse, violent crime, inferior schools, and poverty. Those mythical African American neighborhoods are glaring contradictions to the idea that progress has been made from the civil rights movement and that there has been great growth in the desegregation of America. At least a part of hip-hop's "immoral" philosophy finds its origin in the fact that the civil rights movement did not fulfill its promise to Black America (Evelyn par. 18, online). The rap/hip hop community realizes these inconsistencies, and constructs metaphorical concepts of their neighborhoods that are portrayed in the rap music that comes out of the hip-hop culture."