Genealogical Research

[Pompey Bum]

This post is a response to a private message Clopin sent me. I've been writing a history of my family from 1657 and he asked me how to obtain genealogical data from previous centuries. My response was too long for another private message (as with my family history, there were too many characters) so I asked if he would mind my posting publicly. He didn't have a problem, so here it is. If anyone wants to discuss genealogy beyond this, that's fine. If not, that's cool, too.

The answer is that you have to access surviving documents; for really early lives (Clopin actually asked about the 17th and 18th centuries) you may have to rely on Parish Registers, family Bibles (where life events were often recorded), or whatever has survived in government archives. 17th century military records are poor for the New World, but the 18th century is somewhat better. A law passed in the early 18th century allowed the aging and often indigent veterans of the American Revolution to apply for pensions if they could prove they really served. The result is a large, surviving body of petitions documenting service records. These were usually written by advocates in legalese, but they often contain written or dictated statements from the old soldiers and people they fought with. It can be quite moving to hear the voices of an ancestor from so long ago. And mind blowing. I was completely unprepared for the things I found. You (Clopin) may want to see if there was a Canadian equivalent to this.

By the 19th century there is extensive census data and much better military records. The Internet gives you powerful resources to do access the information. It also allows you to contact other researchers with interests and families that overlap yours. These folks are known as "cousins." They are not hard to find, and they are sometimes extremely helpful (a cousin whose website I wrote to sent me an unpublished family memoir and dozens of of civil war era letters). But cousins will not do your research for you. It's kind of like having a study partner at school. As long as you pull your own weight, there are mutual benefits. Otherwise they will drop you like a stone. That's definitely part of the subculture.

To do your research well (in my opinion) you need to use one of three websites. But there is also this background:

In the first decade of the 21st century there was a robust community of genealogists on a site called Genealogy. Everybody's cousins were there and everyone wanted to share resources. It was all free. But over the last few years, a relatively expensive pay site called Ancestry destroyed the Genealogy community by buying the site and freezing its message board. (They also bought out almost everyone else, which is why they're so expensive). This has caused a sea change in online genealogical culture. Instead of treating resources as something to be shared, many now see them as commodities to be hoarded or sold dear. To Ancestry's credit, they preserve the old Genealogy archives and let people read it for free. It can be mined for all kinds of information (including the email addresses of cousins--some of which are still valid). But it's a dead board. You can't have conversations or ask questions for your own research. The selfish yuppy community that succeeded it is on the Ancestry site, and that you have to pay for.

Ancestry.com

Genealogy.com

Ancestry itself is a really great site, though. It has the biggest (and still growing) database of old records on the net. In addition to that (and the message board) you get access to a library of family photographs (yes, yours are there), in depth access to military records (for a mark up), and access to newspaper articles and obituaries. They also sell a DNA test that's sort of interesting (my brother gave it to me for Christmas--it was fun). Personally I refuse to subscribe to any money pit (meaning any subscription service), but you may want to consider it. It's definitely the best choice if you don't mind paying.

But Ancestry is only one of three major sites. The other two are free, but each has its limitations. The one I use is called FamilySearch. It also has a massive database of records--and some relationship or other with Ancestry. The reason Ancestry can't close them down is that they are owned by the super rich Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints--the Mormons. The LDS has apparently been keeping extensive genealogical records on everybody since the 19th century. I've heard this is because of a doctrine that souls who go to hell can get out if Mormons pray for them enough (apparently it takes a lot of prayers). And Mormons get bonus Heaven points for doing this--or something. Anyway, these records were available only to Mormons for more than a century, but in our times they have been opened up to everybody. So if you can deal with the LDS aspect--and I have no problem with them--it's something of an opportunity.

FamilySearch.com

Another helpful feature of FamilySearch is a software package for creating trees. A lot of people think making a family tree is the goal of genealogy, but in the computer age, the trees are mostly already written. You record a generation or two of your family and the tree will grow, sometimes going back hundreds of years. Trees give you the alł-important names and dates of your forgotten ancestors, making documentary research possible at all. They are also a useful graphic for the chronology you are using to reconstruct the actual story you are trying to tell. So trees are invaluable, but they are just the first step. (I hear Ancestry has good tree software, too, by the way--I've just never used it).

The downside of the FamilySearch tree feature--sort of--is that it is a wiki document. It's not just yours; others can add to it (which can be great) or obliterate your work--potentially cutting off branches that go back for hundreds of years. There are also roving LDS elder's who act as referees. They pass by occasionally, and they will get rid of anything that isn't referenced to a valid record. I've only seen this happen a few times and to be honest the result was always a better and more realistic chronology. You just have to understand that it is not your document exclusively. And because it is a wiki, its information is not perfectly reliable. I've definitely seen some mistakes. LDS, by the way, provides good security for personal data. No information on living people is given on any shared document. It appears only on your own screen and only if you put it there.

There are other features, too, but they are not as effective. Sometimes you get photographs and biographical information--sometimes you even run into cousins--but those things are rare in my experience. Also I have never found FamilySearch to be a community as Genealogy was and Ancestry presumably is now. FamilySearch is really just a research tool. But I've had good results with it--and the price is right. There are some free tutorials for it on YouTube if you are interested.

The third major way to access records and build trees is a free site called Wikitree. This is sort of an anti-Ancestry site. They make a big deal about being free, worldwide community. I've never been too interested. They have an honor code you have to sign on to--mostly just saying that you are going to cite sources--but they also have too many rules for me. If you want to work with someone else you have to apply for trust status and they have to approve you--or something. I'd rather just work with FamilySearch's data and trees and reach out to cousins as I find them on their own websites. I hear they do have a nice community, though. They're supposed to be into sharing photographs and information. But some of the results I've seen from them--for my family anyway--are appallingly bad. I suspect that quality assurance is a big problem on that site. But I don't have much experience with them.

Wikitree.com

One other site deserves mention, even though it's not a massive data records site like the other three. Find A Grave (which uses the unfortunate acronym "F*G" ) is a "virtual shrine" site (people keep pages honoring dead relatives or ancestors or sometimes even strangers). A page may include a photograph of the gravestone or sometimes (if you are lucky) a photograph of an ancestor you never thought you'd get to see. Most pages don't have ancestor photographs, but there enough that rambling through Find A Grave is worthwhile--a bit like fishing for pictures. The shrines have a text section, too, which may have newspaper articles or obituaries. Spouses, siblings, and children are hyperlinked (which makes for better fishing). And since you can write to the shrines' hosts, it's a great way to meet cousins. Some of my best contacts have been Find A Grave hosts. The downside is that there is zero quality assurance on the information given in the text section. And some of the hosts truly don't know what they are talking about. Find A Grave is a great site, only a quasi-reliable source. Suspect any tree that cites it.

Findagrave.com

That, I guess, is what I had to say to Clopin.

[tailor STATELY]

Good advice. Being LDS I have a free account with Family Search which I use frequently, Ancestry - all the leaves or hints will start piling up on you (but not all archives for me), Find My Past http://www.findmypast.com , and My Heritage https://www.myheritage.com . I also use Family Tree Now http://www.familytreenow.com/search here in the US (which is free) for more recent research and tools: but it's hit and miss sometimes with its information... just this morning it "told" me there was a county in Nevada called Lovelo - which is prolly the CITY Lovelock in Pershing County, NV... ya know, the place where the prison is, but hey it's free and a decent place to start. I use Find A Grave a lot also. They have links to family members and other archives which are really handy (also used this site this morning). Just googling with a little family info will give you a decent start. Got a lot of stuff done, family history wise, in the wee hours today !

If you have a friend or neighbor who is LDS, they can direct you or help you with your research... yadon'thavetojointhechurchtodofamilyhistorywork! Our Ward/church has its own Family History Center which I use on Sundays to augment my research at home; also centers in Placerville (closest "big" city to me) and Sacramento (THE big city down the hill an hour or so for most people [me: 2-hours]). If you live near SLC then it's pretty much nirvana (can I say that?) with family history resources.

Watch for genealogy shows on the telly; PBS has two I try to catch here in the US. They can give wonderful tips on how to liven up your searches.

Blogs are great resources too. Family Search has one at https://familysearch.org/blog/en/ . The following site has a good list of blogs and websites and tools to get you started with also: http://www.familytreemagazine.com/article/best-genealogy-blogs-2015

Get your DNA tested if you can afford to. This can lead you to countries of origin and possible cousins. Remember all that stuff in Biology class about that Mendel dude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel ... turns out he was on to something. I attended a DNA seminar last month by another smart dude, Steve Morse (yes - THAT Steve Morse), which is distilled here: http://stevemorse.org/genetealogy/dna.htm ... it's as simple as ACGT !

Be prepared for name mis-spellings and downright arbitrary name changes, wrong dates and cities/counties, and transcription errors of all sorts from any archive made available. Don't get discouraged: Your successes will lift you far more than any dead-ends or otherwise wrong turns you might find will discourage you.

May the spirit of Elijah be with you ! (as we LDS say) to help you with your family history.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[tailor STATELY]

I've heard this is because of a (LDS) doctrine that souls who go to hell can get out if Mormons pray for them enough (apparently it takes a lot of prayers). And Mormons get bonus Heaven points for doing this--or something.

??? lol.... or something...

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[Pompey Bum]

Congratulations to taylor on the progress I had a breakthrough today, too, after a cousin emailed me a 1690 contract from the Virginia State Archives. It not only confirmed a direct relationship I have been trying to document for months, it established the existence of second ancestor I had hypothesized (down to the name) but for whom there was no evidence until now. It was one of those damn-I'm-good moments--the kind that typically goeth before a fall.

And the cousin didn't even know what she was doing! She was just sending me a bunch of deeply archived legal papers that she thought might have some overlapping names with ours. I'm still ploughing through them, and believe me, there is nothing like 17th century legalese! They just spelled words however they wanted to at that moment. Honestly. But I'm totally pumped. I completely know what taylor is talking about. The work can be frustrating, but the breakthroughs are so worth it.

[Pompey Bum]

??? lol.... or something...

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

Sorry, tailor. I don't want to misrepresent LDS theology, and I don't really know that much about it.

[YesNo]

My brother traced our genealogy to the mid 19th century. He didn't get as far back as either of you did.

I don't actually think we had our last name until the late 18th or early 19th century when some census required that an ancestor have a last name to get recorded properly, but I don't know how true that is. It could be just family myth.

[OrphanPip]

We've got a family Bible that goes back the late 18th century for my father's side, but my mother's ancestry is rather muddled because my great grandfather was a Jewish orphan from the UK who ended up in a Catholic orphanage in Montreal before being sent to an Orthodox Ukrainian farm family out west. He afterwards returned to Montreal and married an Anglican so he converted to Anglicanism. My great grandfather later tried to track down his family in Europe but the records of his adoption were lost in a fire. Also, the entire practice of indentured servitude of orphan children was a little bit suspect at the time so it's not clear proper records were ever kept.

[Pompey Bum]

Interesting story, Orphan Pip. It's nice to meet you, by the way. I know you've been on the site forever, but somehow I think we've never interacted.

Indentured servitude/slavery is an interesting topic. I think it's been swept under history's baggy carpet, probably because European Americans were ashamed of the legacy and didn't want to talk about it. Both my immigrant ancestors came to America as indentured slaves. My great great great great great great great great grandmother was only 12 when she was transported in 1657. She was likely an orphan or an illegitimate child or simply the daughter of indigent parents (I haven't figured out which yet, though I have some of the story). She slaved on a middling tobacco plantation Maryland for 5 years (her master was a Catholic escaping persecution and in England). I have fairly good evidence she was a milkmaid and a lady's maid when her master's wife got pregnant. She married the free cooper, who turned planter himself after his wife got her freedom back. Her name was Mary.

My great great great great great great great grandfather was an indentured slave, too. He was about the same age as Mary, but he didn't cross the Atlantic (which is what he had sold his freedom for) until 1674/5. He slaved in a tobacco field in Virginia and married Mary (the cooper had died on her a few years before) when his indenture expired. His name was John.

I don't know if you are interested in this kind of research, Pip, but you might be able to recover more of your great grandfather's family story than he was. I was able to pluck poor Mary out of some pretty obscure records. And you have access to computer resources that your great grandfather never dreamed of. You may want to give it a try. Just a thought.

[Pompey Bum]

I don't actually think we had our last name until the late 18th or early 19th century when some census required that an ancestor have a last name to get recorded properly, but I don't know how true that is. It could be just family myth.

That's an interesting story, too, YesNo. One of the things I've noticed is how many common people lacked surnames before the 17th century. It's one of the reasons I limit my research (mostly) to America. But there are plenty of Europeans who do just fine in the murkier waters of time. The 18th and 19th centuries are a little late, though, to have no last name. It could be that your family is remembering an earlier time.

Last names, by the way, are not all their cracked up to be. People changed them all the time to fit in or to avoid persecution or social censure (the 20th century produced a plethora of unknowing Germans). And in earlier times the commoners sometimes just took on the names of their lords and masters. My last name is Scottish. I was taught growing up that I was a Scottish American. But the DNA test that my brother gave me for Christmas showed that our largest ethnicity factor is Irish and that Scottish is quite small (I know that the Scottish and Irish are both Celts, by the way; apparently there's a marker). I'm more Spanish than I am Scottish--and much more German! A lot of the things people think they know about themselves are a bunch of poop.

[YesNo]

It could be the 17th century. I haven't done any genealogical research myself and probably remember incorrectly what my brother was trying to tell me.

[Tyrion Cheddar]

My family were the biggest bunch of horse thieves and rum runners east of the Mississippi. Most of 'em were lynched, deservedly so, and, I expect are currently turning slowly on a rotisserie as the Horned One drips more bacon juice on them.

[Pompey Bum]

You're probably joking, TC, but uncovering your ancestors' scandals is always fun, especially since they usually tried really hard to cover their tracks. Their sins were usually sexual indiscretions (illegitimacy, affairs, common law shack ups, etc.). There was a lot of that in the old days (as now). Anyway, it's strangely enjoyable to try to outsmart your dead ancestors, and then to say: "Ah! I've got you!" What you do with the dirt it is a somewhat sensitive issue, but personally I'm putting it all in the book. God knows I've left enough treats to keep my nieces and nephews busy after I'm gone (and by then, I'll be laughing about it all).

[Dreamwoven]

I've only just discovered this Genealogical Research thread, from Pompey's post on third generation germans Shame on me!

Anyway my father's family grew up in the Austrian Empire before it became the Dual Monarchy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary). It was only then that citizens (who before that only could have German surnames) were allowed to have Hungarian surnames. Many jews chose Hungarian surnames, and became, for example, Kovács (blacksmith), or Hartmann became Kemény.

My jewish father had such a surname and spoke Hungarian as his first language. One of my uncles did genealogical research on his family surname, tracing it back hundreds of years in its original German.

[Helga]

I love findagrave.com, one of my favourite websites.

Here on the ice the community is small, but not as small as many think, we have a website were you can trace your ancestry very far back. Just now I found out that one of my ancestors is Snorri Sturluson who wrote the Prose Edda. He was born in 1179, you can go further back than that.

[Lokasenna]

Just now I found out that one of my ancestors is Snorri Sturluson who wrote the Poetic Edda. He was born in 1179, you can go further back than that.

I think that's +1000 cool points from me! Does that mean you can negotiate access to his bath at Reykholt? I've a Canadian-Icelandic friend who is a distant descendant of Egill Skallagrímsson on her mother's side, which is also pretty awesome.

(N.B - Snorri wrote the Prose Edda, not the poetic one. Easy mistake to make.)

[cacian]

??? lol.... or something...

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

tailor what is LDS?

[MANICHAEAN]

Fascinating field of study if you have time for it.

There was a programme a few months back in the UK called "Who do you think you are?" One game show host, (I forget his name) was traced back to William the Conqueror as a blood line relative. Is there perhaps a moral there?

Recently, my younger brother resumed diplomatic relations to inquire after our late Irish father, as his son (post Brexit) was considering giving up British citizenship to apply for Irish!

I had quite a lot of my fathers papers and family gossip that I had gathered over the years e.g that his Irish grandfather was the only taxi driver in Skibbereen, County Cork and was reputed to spend a considerable amount of time, drunk in the bottom of a ditch. That would of course explain my penchant for hard liquor in my genes.

There were more illustrious characters though. My fathers brother went down as a gunner on the Prince of Wales Battleship when sunk by the Japanese. And then of course the Irish family name "Walsh." This basically referred to Welshmen taken to Ireland as mercenaries by the British during and after the Norman invasion of Ireland.

My elder brother has researched my mothers side and apparently we had one relative who fought for the Duke of Wellington in the Peninsular campaign and married a gypsy girl from Seville. My late mother upon being informed of this replied " That explains why Aunt Nell was so good with the castanets!"

[August Guelfen]

I found out some months ago, I am the last direct heir of Henry the Lion, Duke of Saxony, Duke of Bavaria, cousin of Friedrich Barbarossa, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation... Henry founded Munich in 1159... His lion is our family sign of god given raign for ever, like the white Guelphen Horse, still the heraldic sign of my homestate Lower Saxony in Germany... We are the oldest royal and nobel bloodline dynasty still living in Europe. At least 1250 years are documented...

[Dreamwoven]

I've only just discovered this Genealogical Research thread, from Pompey's post on third generation germans: Shame on me!

Anyway my father's family grew up in the Austrian Empire before it became the Dual Monarchy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary). It was only then that citizens (who before that only could have German surnames) were allowed to have Hungarian surnames. Many jews chose Hungarian surnames, and became, for example, Kovács (blacksmith), or Hartmann became Kemény (meaning "hard" in Hungarian.

My jewish father had such a surname and spoke Hungarian as his first language. One of my uncles did genealogical research on his family surname, tracing it back hundreds of years in its original German, all in the Slovak town of Levoĉa.

I visited it with my Jewish aunt in the early 1950s when I was in my early teens, and also the ruined and abandoned jewish cemetery, and saw one grave with my father's surname on it. I even met an uncle and aunt who still lived in Levoĉa. They fled to the forests in the last year of the war when it's Regent, Miklos Horthy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miklós_Horthy), was increasingly dominated by Hitler, and when jews were bing shot in the street by pro-Nazi supporters. Budapest is the only city in East Europe with a substantial jewish population, including the largest synagogue in Europe: http://visitbudapest.travel/activities/budapest-sightseeing/jewish-quarter-walking-tour.

[Dreamwoven]

I found out some months ago, I am the last direct heir of Henry the Lion, Duke of Saxony, Duke of Bavaria, cousin of Friedrich Barbarossa, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation... Henry founded Munich in 1159... His lion is our family sign of god given raign for ever, like the white Guelphen Horse, still the heraldic sign of my homestate Lower Saxony in Germany... We are the oldest royal and nobel bloodline dynasty still living in Europe. At least 1250 years are documented...

This is very impressive, August!

[Dreamwoven]

tailor what is LDS?

Church of the Latter Day Saints: https://www.lds.org/?lang=eng

[Pompey Bum]

I've only just discovered this Genealogical Research thread, from Pompey's post on third generation germans Shame on me!

Anyway my father's family grew up in the Austrian Empire before it became the Dual Monarchy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary). It was only then that citizens (who before that only could have German surnames) were allowed to have Hungarian surnames. Many jews chose Hungarian surnames, and became, for example, Kovács (blacksmith), or Hartmann became Kemény.

My jewish father had such a surname and spoke Hungarian as his first language. One of my uncles did genealogical research on his family surname, tracing it back hundreds of years in its original German.

Fascinating, DW. Make sure you preserve all stories and photographs of your father and that you identify an interested source to leave them to. If the stories are oral lore, then write them down. Also be sure to identify individuals in all photographs. (Reconstructing who's who in old photographs is another Sherlockian task--fun but hard to do.


Just now I found out that one of my ancestors is Snorri Sturluson who wrote the Poetic Edda. He was born in 1179, you can go further back than that.


I found out some months ago, I am the last direct heir of Henry the Lion, Duke of Saxony, Duke of Bavaria, cousin of Friedrich Barbarossa, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation... Henry founded Munich in 1159... His lion is our family sign of god given raign for ever, like the white Guelphen Horse, still the heraldic sign of my homestate Lower Saxony in Germany... We are the oldest royal and nobel bloodline dynasty still living in Europe. At least 1250 years are documented...

Very interesting, Helga and August. I began my research with the idea (for my purposes only) that I wasn't interested in illustrious ancestors but in recovering the memory--meaning the stories--of the forgotten. My ancestors haven't let me down: most have proved to be as humble as I suspected. What has truly shocked me, though, is their presence at famous--sometimes almost mythic--events in American history, and my own family's utter ignorance of these things until I dug them up. I wish I had known about them as a boy.

Three of my ancestors, my great great great great great grandfather, John, and his brothers, William and James, turn out to have crossed the Delaware with Washington and fought at the Battle of Trenton in 1776. Two were privates and one was an ensign (a low ranking officer somewhat like a second lieutenant in the American army today). John was killed the next early spring. William and James ended up at Valley Forge during the famous bitter winter. I even know which hut they were billeted in. There is a reconstruction of it on the site, although I have never been there.

I also know the battles they fought in and even have a first person narrative by William of his war record. Before Valley Forge, he fought at the Battles of White Plains, Trenton, and Brandywine, among others). At Brandywine, his regiment performed a rear-guard action (as everyone else was running) that probably saved Washington's army. He later fought at famous Battle of Monmouth and the storming of Stony Point (among other places). Who knew? Not me.

James, the ensign, fought with his brothers at White Plains and Trenton. He probably fought beside William at Brandywine, too. They were in the same company at the time, so it is likely; but I haven't been able to confirm his presence there as yet. After surviving Valley Forge, James was pressured into resigning his commission because he was illiterate. (I can't prove it, but this may have been part of Von Steuben's famous reforms that were being introduced about the same time). it must have been especially galling for James because, unlike many of the officers he served with, he had enlisted and begun recruiting (and fighting) at the very outbreak of the war. His response was to return to Virginia and teach himself to read and write. A year later he obtainec a commission as a lieutenant and was later promoted to captain. He was sent to the shockingly violent Kentucky frontier where he fought British-led aboriginal people. I don't have a first hand account of this by James, but I have located a widow's pension request that includes narratives by some of the men who served with him. I find him an inspiring character.

I have also retrieved letters by or about ancestors during the American Civil War. So far I have found ten family members who served in it--either men on my paternal side or husbands of women from that part of my family. At least two I consider heroes. One of them fought in the horrific Battle of Shiloh in the worst possible part of the field (the hornet's nest and peach orchard for those who know the history). The other, my great great grandfather, was in a cavalry regiment that participated in a famously daring expedition known as Grierson's Raid (the John Wayne movie The Horse Soldiers is about Grierson's Raid) and other real hell-for-leather exploits. Most of the others had less flashy but no less brave and bloody wars. One or two got in at the very end and did no more than train. One who did fight kept going home and was very lucky not to be shot as a deserter (he was tried). I've pieced his story together by references to him in dozens of letters--mostly by people gossiping about him. Another combat veteran--about whom I know frustratingly little--appears to have been present when Lee surrendered to Grant.

I knew none of this a year ago. During my recent hiatus from the site, I was doing genealogical research and writing a book about what I'd found. (That's where I'll be the next time I dissapear, too). What I have just described is the smallest tip of the iceberg. I've found a great deal more, and I am still uncovering troves.


Fascinating field of study if you have time for it.

True, it takes patience and makes a good retirement activity. Ironically (and sadly) it's what Lincoln planned to do after his presidency. He apparently had ancestors who came from Hingham, Massachusetts. Once, during the height of his unpopularity (which was more of a plateau than a peak), he's supposed to have said: "My ancestors came from Hingham--or maybe it's pronounced Hang 'im."


My fathers brother went down as a gunner on the Prince of Wales Battleship when sunk by the Japanese.

My sympathies, M, and my sincerest appreciation for your uncle's sacrifice. As Churchill famously quoted Byron:

Our countrymen were warring on that day,
And this is much and more which will not go away.

Added:


I visited it with my Jewish aunt in the early 1950s when I was in my early teens, and also the ruined and abandoned jewish cemetery, and saw one grave with my father's surname on it. I even met an uncle and aunt who still lived in Levoĉa. They fled to the forests in the last year of the war when it's Regent, Miklos Horthy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miklós_Horthy), was increasingly dominated by Hitler, and when jews were bing shot in the street by pro-Nazi supporters. Budapest is the only city in East Europe with a substantial jewish population, including the largest synagogue in Europe: http://visitbudapest.travel/activities/budapest-sightseeing/jewish-quarter-walking-tour.

Thank you for that detail, DW. This multiplies the need for preservation of family histories to an incalculable degree. Write your stories down.

[Helga]

[QUOTE=Lokasenna;1323122]I think that's +1000 cool points from me! Does that mean you can negotiate access to his bath at Reykholt?


don't know about that, might try one day..

I do wonder how many people here on the ice are descendants of his, he had a few mistresses, one of the children he had that way is my link to him.

I did go back as far as I could on my mothers side and I could as far back as a man who was born in 810, lucky me to live in a small country that has always loved keeping notes

[Tyrion Cheddar]

All you guys with all your royal ancestors and such. I learned about my family, too, and a bigger bunch o' horse thieves and rum runners there never was. When they weren't cheatin' at cards they were shootin' up saloons. And my great-aunt May? Man, her brothel brought the cowboys from far and wide. At one point, I'm told, they considered rerouting the railroad so it'd stop in front of her place.

[Pompey Bum]

I have one like that, too, TC. He ran a saloon in South Dakota at the beginning of the 20th century. His business didn't miss a beat when prohibition came (and he started calling himself a "hotel keeper" on census forms). Later he lost his shady money grubstaking miners who skedaddled on him. He's someone else I've rescued from the oblivion (and perdition) the next generation was pleased to cast him into (my paternal grandmother told me he was "burning in hell as we speak" when I asked about him as a boy). Not every ghost is a friendly one.

[Tyrion Cheddar]

I have one like that, too, TC. He ran a saloon in South Dakota at the beginning of the 20th century. His business didn't miss a beat when prohibition came (and he started calling himself a "hotel keeper" on census forms). Later he lost his shady money grubstaking miners who skedaddled on him. He's someone else I've rescued from the oblivion (and perdition) the next generation was pleased to cast him into (my paternal grandmother told me he was "burning in hell as we speak" when I asked about him as a boy). Not every ghost is a friendly one.

Poetically expressed, PB, and you make an interesting point about the caricatures into which both living and dead family members are made by whomever represents the power or the "ruling majority" within a family. Your story is possibly a good example of the way in which persons wishing to feel virtuous and godly are willing to cast even their own kin in the role of villain, that they may contrast themselves to said person and appear chaste. More broadly, it is astonishing the extent to which people will go to maintain a lie, a sort of family mythology which they find expedient, knowing as they must vaguely do what it costs the designated scapegoat.

[Pompey Bum]

Poetically expressed, PB, and you make an interesting point about the caricatures into which both living and dead family members are made by whomever represents the power or the "ruling majority" within a family.

Thanks. The same applies in a macroscopic sense to history as a whole. But neither lasts very long. History is not written by winners (as the cliche has it) but by survivors. It's like the Humphrey Bogart movie in which the two gold miners with one gun wait for the other to fall asleep first. Once the guy pointing the gun at you is gone, the stories get told.


Your story is possibly a good example of the way in which persons wishing to feel virtuous and godly are willing to cast even their own kin in the role of villain, that they may contrast themselves to said person and appear chaste.

You knew her, huh? :)

Okay, for the record, the saloon keeper was that grandmother's father-in-law, so she wasn't exactly casting her "own kin" into hell. And he was a character--but so was she. Theodore (the saloon keeper) has a chapter in my draft; my father's mother has three (so far). Both in fact were tragic figures who endured excruciatingly painful events in their lives. One degenerated As e result, the other became as you describe above (but much worse). It may seem strange to want to dig these old things up. But getting the facts out can lead to compassion. It sure did for me.

I'm very proud of reconstructing Theodore's story: of breaking my family's conspiracy of silence and figuring out his secret of his pain (which had to do with suicide). Silence didn't help.


More broadly, it is astonishing the extent to which people will go to maintain a lie, a sort of family mythology which they find expedient, knowing as they must vaguely do what it costs the designated scapegoat.

Ah, but there is a solution! In the words of Winston Churchill: "History shall be kind to me for I intend to write it." :)

[tailor STATELY]

Quote Originally Posted by tailor STATELY View Post
??? lol.... or something...

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY


tailor what is LDS?

Hi cacian. A person who is LDS is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or as some say Mormon. For us Family History work is a commandment as well as a joy: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Family_History_Genealogy

Addendum: Even if you're not a church member one can use Family Search online for free to start your Family History: https://familysearch.org

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[Tyrion Cheddar]

It may seem strange to want to dig these old things up. But getting the facts out can lead to compassion. It sure did for me.

I'm very proud of reconstructing Theodore's story: of breaking my family's conspiracy of silence and figuring out his secret of his pain (which had to do with suicide). Silence didn't help.

Ah, but there is a solution! In the words of Winston Churchill: "History shall be kind to me for I intend to write it." :)

Yeah, your point about compassion once a person's life is properly understood and one takes into account the circumstances of the time and the way people's minds worked then, is what I thought of when you first described old Teddy baby.

Great Churchill quote. I also like his line: "I'm not a prime minister, but I play one in the newsreels."

[Dreamwoven]

Church of the Latter Day Saints: https://www.lds.org/?lang=eng

I didn't know Church of the Latter-day Saints was the same as Mormon. But then I didn't know the CLD even existed until I looked it up on the internet.

[Dreamwoven]

I visited it with my Jewish aunt in the early 1950s when I was in my early teens, and also the ruined and abandoned jewish cemetery, and saw one grave with my father's surname on it. I even met an uncle and aunt who still lived in Levoĉa. They fled to the forests in the last year of the war when it's Regent, Miklos Horthy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miklós_Horthy), was increasingly dominated ĉby Hitler, and when jews were bing shot in the street by pro-Nazi supporters. Budapest is the only city in East Europe with a substantial jewish population, including the largest synagogue in Europe: http://visitbudapest.travel/activities/budapest-sightseeing/jewish-quarter-walking-tour.

Levoĉa is a beautiful town, in the Low Tatra mountains and walled. You can get some feel for it on this website: http://eng.levoca.sk. Lajos and Jolàn were distant relatives of mine I can't remember their exact relation but the spent the winter of 1944/5 in a farmer's barn having collected berries and mushrooms all autumn to "pay" for the privilege.

None of my father's extensive kinship network in Czechoslovakia survived the war, all being taken to Auschwitz by the Nazis.

Another 2 jewish people we met were Zoli who joined the partizans and his wife, Cita.

Also a member of the Communist Party who stood up for the jews. She was very determined and shamed critics with her very vocal opposition. I forgot her name!

[Dreamwoven]

My mother's maiden name was Kiss - Hungarian for Little, a fairly common surname in Hungary. It is pronounced Kish. Maria was Catholic and born in the village of Rakamaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakamaz).

In the 1930s during the Great Depression, many country girls from the Soviet Union in Central Europe came to England to work as maids in the households of the upper middle class. There were usually no other servants, just a maid. She applied at the same time as her best friend, Nusi (about the same age and from the same village of Rakamaz). They both got maid jobs, Maria in Georgeham (http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Georgeham/), Devon and Nusi near the Sussex coast in the household of a Conservative member of Parliament. They kept in touch throughout their lives as best friends.

The Georgeham household was that of a retired Guards cavalryman, a Major Hodgson and his wife. He had photos of him together with the Queen Mother (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0703069/) in India. I visited this couple at their house when I went cycling down that way on a youth hosteling holiday in the early 1950s.

[Dreamwoven]

I subscribe to the website "Remember the Holocaust" and learned new things about my maternal family that I did not know. The village of Rakamaz where my mother and aunt were born is just 5 km by road to the famous Tokaj Vineyards, a wine my family often drank as a treat. It is sweet wine especially Tokaji Aszu, the grapes picked late in the season, when the sugar content is highest and the grapes have begun to wither. Its owner was Jewish, the Zimmerman family. You can read about it here: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/208846/in-wine-truth.

Is there anyone on LitNet who can understand Hungarian?

Anyway here are links to related websites, some have pictures:
http://www.rakamaz.hu

An apple festival (almafesztival) is held there each autumn.
http://www.rakamaz.hu/turizmus-mainmenu-208/almafesztival-2015

Wikipedia has a page in Hungarian only on Tokaj-Rakamaz:https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokaj–rakamazi_közúti_Tisza-h%C3%ADd

[Pompey Bum]

DW: I'm sorry to have missed thse interesting (and sad) posts while I was off writing a story for a few days. And I'm sorry indeed to hear about your father's Czechoslovakian family. I know that area was really devastated near the end of the war, so I'm not surprised. Here is a site that helped me when I was doing some (non-genealogical) Holocaust research a few years ago. I don't know if they can help, but you may want to see.

http://www.nizkor.org

I think Jewish girls from Eastern Europe coming to England as maids of the aristocracy was touched on (though it was not a major theme) in Kazuo Ishiguro's Remains of the Day.

[Dreamwoven]

Thank you for your kind words, Pompey. Thanks also for the link. They lead to lots of different pages, which I will check out later.

[Dreamwoven]

That nizkor website in the url from Pompey is very informative, lots of links to many different pages! I still have not finished exploring them yet!

My father never got over losing all his relatives in WW2. But he would never talk about it. Great shame but as a result I never got to investigate it. I suppose I just followed his lead in not talking about it, and kept this up until I retired in 2005!

[Pompey Bum]

I'm glad it's been helpful, DW. The intentional silences of ancestors is a theme in my writing. If you can't find information about his experiences, you may still be able to find accounts by people who were physically close enough for you to learn about his experience. Maybe the Nizkor site can help with that, I don't know.

My father in law was a survivor of the horrific civilian bombing of Shanghai and the brutal occupation that followed. I asked him to tell me about it before he died, but all he would say was: "All done."

[desiresjab]

My daughter researched our family. We have an injun side and a milkface side. Scottish and Wyiott injun. I knew my great grandmother who was half injun. Her mother saw her own mother shot in the back off a horse and killed in the middle of the Mattole river. We were raised as white kids, but aware of our injun heritage. My grandmother had the foresight to register us at birth, so we qualified for some injun payouts. When we played cowboys and Indians as kids, though, we always wanted to be the cowboys. What were injuns but these dummies that kept circling the wagons ineffectually, getting shot off their horses?

Things that used to be free are now pay-per-view. Corporate slimeys have infiltrated every corner of the internet like starving maggots. Try looking up a phone number on the internet. It used to be easy and free, now you have to pay for it, along with a report on the sexual/criminal history, financial solvency, known relatives and history of addresses of your subject, and more. Absurd!

I have found librarians very useful and helpful, even over the telephone. I had to research an historical character from my area and his movements after he left California in 1862 for the Idaho territory. I was able to dig pretty deep, right down to names of small creeks where he filed gold claims, follow his occupational history from state to state and read his obituary. Not bad for spending no money.

Geneaolgical research and related kinds of research can be very pleasing in the end. Before you get there, be prepared for a lot of frustration and walls. Pompey is really stretching far back, getting into pre-pilgrim eras. Incredible amount of work, I imagine. From roughly the civil war onward is the only family history I know. More is probably available. There is an annual gathering in Scotland for those with my last name. My daddy used to communicate with them. We know our historical coat of arms. We were highlanders, warriors. Strangely, our Wyiott/Mattole ancestors were warriors, too. Not the Wyiotts, who were very passive and easy to slaughter, but the Mattole side (we are identified as Wyiott/Mattole in the official records) resisted fiercely as long as they could. If you were making a list of the fiercest American injun tribes, both the Mattole and the Hupa (Hoopa) from my area would likely be on it near the top, along with the Comanche, Apache, Iriquois, etc. that you know so well.

The white hairy faces were experienced at wiping out injuns by the time they got around to "civilizing" California. Once the genocide started, it proceded amazingly quickly. California injuns were not spread out like the plains Indians with horses to disappear on. Tribes and villages were in relatively close proximity to one another because the land was rich. Some of the holdout tribes lived in extremely rugged terrain. Before he became famous general Grant was sent to fort Humbolt to pacify the local Indians, in particular the Hupa. The Hupa ended up with a great reservation on their home turf.

My Scottish ancestors did not kill any California injuns that I know of. By that time they were loggers and farmers. Instead, my ancestor married an injun by the name of Iramente.

[Dreamwoven]

I subscribe to the website "Remember the Holocaust" and learned new things about my maternal family that I did not know. The village of Rakamaz where my mother and aunt were born is just 5 km by road to the famous Tokaj Vineyards, a wine my family often drank as a treat. It is sweet wine especially Tokaji Aszu, the grapes picked late in the season, when the sugar content is highest and the grapes have begun to wither. Its owner was Jewish, the Zimmerman family. You can read about it here: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/208846/in-wine-truth.

Is there anyone on LitNet who can understand Hungarian?

Anyway here are links to related websites, some have pictures:
http://www.rakamaz.hu

An apple festival (almafesztival) is held there each autumn.
http://www.rakamaz.hu/turizmus-mainmenu-208/almafesztival-2015

Wikipedia has a page in Hungarian only on Tokaj-Rakamaz:https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokaj–rakamazi_közúti_Tisza-h%C3%ADd

My uncle Sandor Kovacs couldn't escape Hungary in time and was hidden by a catholic lady in her home in Hungary. They came to England after the war and I only knew them as Babinéni and Bélabácsi. Bélabácsi was a taylor and he had a tiny workshop off Oxford Street where I went to see him a couple of times. He measured and cut the material by eye alone. It was amazing to watch. He died in the 1950s of a heart attack, drowned in a swimming pool while on holiday in the Mediterranean. Babinéni took me to the Art Gallery at Trafalgar Square, several times as a child, her mother could make fine portraits, one of which was in the style of Louis Leopold Boilly, four faces called Les Grimaces. very fashionable in the 1850s.

[Dreamwoven]

My daughter researched our family. We have an injun side and a milkface side. Scottish and Wyiott injun. I knew my great grandmother who was half injun. Her mother saw her own mother shot in the back off a horse and killed in the middle of the Mattole river. We were raised as white kids, but aware of our injun heritage. My grandmother had the foresight to register us at birth, so we qualified for some injun payouts. When we played cowboys and Indians as kids, though, we always wanted to be the cowboys. What were injuns but these dummies that kept circling the wagons ineffectually, getting shot off their horses?

Things that used to be free are now pay-per-view. Corporate slimeys have infiltrated every corner of the internet like starving maggots. Try looking up a phone number on the internet. It used to be easy and free, now you have to pay for it, along with a report on the sexual/criminal history, financial solvency, known relatives and history of addresses of your subject, and more. Absurd!

I have found librarians very useful and helpful, even over the telephone. I had to research an historical character from my area and his movements after he left California in 1862 for the Idaho territory. I was able to dig pretty deep, right down to names of small creeks where he filed gold claims, follow his occupational history from state to state and read his obituary. Not bad for spending no money.

Geneaolgical research and related kinds of research can be very pleasing in the end. Before you get there, be prepared for a lot of frustration and walls. Pompey is really stretching far back, getting into pre-pilgrim eras. Incredible amount of work, I imagine. From roughly the civil war onward is the only family history I know. More is probably available. There is an annual gathering in Scotland for those with my last name. My daddy used to communicate with them. We know our historical coat of arms. We were highlanders, warriors. Strangely, our Wyiott/Mattole ancestors were warriors, too. Not the Wyiotts, who were very passive and easy to slaughter, but the Mattole side (we are identified as Wyiott/Mattole in the official records) resisted fiercely as long as they could. If you were making a list of the fiercest American injun tribes, both the Mattole and the Hupa (Hoopa) from my area would likely be on it near the top, along with the Comanche, Apache, Iriquois, etc. that you know so well.

The white hairy faces were experienced at wiping out injuns by the time they got around to "civilizing" California. Once the genocide started, it proceded amazingly quickly. California injuns were not spread out like the plains Indians with horses to disappear on. Tribes and villages were in relatively close proximity to one another because the land was rich. Some of the holdout tribes lived in extremely rugged terrain. Before he became famous general Grant was sent to fort Humbolt to pacify the local Indians, in particular the Hupa. The Hupa ended up with a great reservation on their home turf.

My Scottish ancestors did not kill any California injuns that I know of. By that time they were loggers and farmers. Instead, my ancestor married an injun by the name of Iramente.

I thought this post was fascinating. The Wiyot Tribe has its own website - http://www.wiyot.com - which is well-designed and informative. Its in the Humboldt Bay region. I can believe early European would settle down with local tribal members. Settler communities were heavily male-dominated, and womenfolk greatly sought after.

The Hupa Indians (http://www.native-american-indian-facts.com/California-American-Indian-Facts/Hupa-Indians.shtml) have their own website too.

All-in-all a fascinating post. I particularly liked the way your relatives remain proud of your Indian heritage, desiresjab!

[desiresjab]

I thought this post was fascinating. The Wiyot Tribe has its own website - http://www.wiyot.com - which is well-designed and informative. Its in the Humboldt Bay region. I can believe early European would settle down with local tribal members. Settler communities were heavily male-dominated, and womenfolk greatly sought after.

The Hupa Indians (http://www.native-american-indian-facts.com/California-American-Indian-Facts/Hupa-Indians.shtml) have their own website too.

All-in-all a fascinating post. I particularly liked the way your relatives remain proud of your Indian heritage, desiresjab!

The part of your post I redded up, especially!

Then there is the other reason. The fiercest injun brave could not protect his woman the way an average white hairy face could. In some cases the white hairy face just killed your husband. An Indian woman would feel safer with a milk face husband who was halfway kind when there was a genocide underway. Most of her own people were already dead anyway. This kind of scenario was typical.

[Dreamwoven]

The genocide policies toward Amerindians is a tragic theme in the settlement of North America. Moved into reservations, today this is held up as a means of conserving their rich culture, when in practice it was the end of a process of dooming such cultures to minimalist representation.

[Dreamwoven]

My jewish aunt and uncle lived with us in London until Sandor died in 1950, when I was 8. During those years that I remember they took me to Bournemouth to a hotel in the Chines (http://bournemouth.co.uk/bournemouth/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Bournemouth-walking-the-Chines-of-Bournemouth-and-Poole.pdf). I forgot its name, but this was for me an amazing treat.

We took a Pullman from London, with those brown and cream wagons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_(car_or_coach), and had breakfast in its dining car, with table service by waiters. The hotel was equally luxurious where we spent a week's holiday. I made friends there and we went climbing trees on the sides of the chine.

These came from Austria-Hungary, as I also found out much later.

I used to be so nervous when it was time to go each year, that I was almost ill with anticipation. My uncle and aunt were themselves childless (or should that be childfree?) and pampered me. It was a brief period for a working class lad but I really appreciated it.

After Sandor died Joci took me to Central Europe, to Czechoslovakia and Hungary in the early 1950s. Many years later, in the early 1970s my Swedish wife and I moved into an old flat in Gothenburg and it was only then that I realised how similar the Swedish language is to German, words like Konditori and Torta (cake), also reflecting a cultural similarity that was not found in English.

[Dreamwoven]

In today's Dagens Nyheter there is an article by Karin Johannisson (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karin_Johannisson) on "home longing" (hemlängtan) which with the floods of some 65 million refugees that have been - and continue to be - pouring into Europe, threatens to become the new illness of our time. Johannisson is Professor of Idea-History at Uppsala University.

This relates in mild form to the home-longing that I wrote about in the above post. How much worse is this likely to be among today's refugees?

It is certainly a very interesting article.

[Dreamwoven]

I remember just after the end of the Second World War an Anderson Shelter (http://primaryfacts.com/506/anderson-shelter-facts/) was standing on the street outside our house. We never used it as my parents bought the house in 1945, after the end of the war. You could also see in Brent Park where a dirigible balloon (http://www.airships.net/dirigible) was launched and held in place by ropes. They were used for soldiers to practice jumping out of using parachutes. I often saw this in the early postwar period and watched this from the upstairs bedroom.

Another kind of air raid shelter was a reinforced table called a Morrison Shelter (http://primaryfacts.com/508/morrison-shelter-facts/), called a "Table (Morrison) Indoor Shelter". As a small child I was kept in the middle part of this kind of shelter in the house my parents were renting, with the adults' legs sticking out of the table, and therefore unprotected. This was before moving to Willesden and my uncle, Sandor, used to joke that if the house was bombed I would have to push everyone around in wheelchairs. Sandor was a real character, cracking jokes like that.

[tailor STATELY]

I gave an intro to "DNA and Family History" presentation a few weeks ago for our community. I sourced: http://lincolnhillsgenealogy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/DNA-and-Genealogy-handout-Jeane-Berry-1.pdf and some youtube videos including:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-22wBclxk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4kLUoam8ik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOy0v3VGz6I

also website: http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_testing_comparison_chart

Hoping this may help others with their Family History journey.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[Dreamwoven]

Thanks, tailor, for all that information stored in the links. I look forward to studying them!

[Dreamwoven]

http://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/holocaust-education-week-facing-a-future-without-survivors

I found this in my subscription to [email protected] [Remember_The_Holocaust] <[email protected]

[tailor STATELY]

A bit of research gave me International Holocaust Remembrance Day... the 27th of January: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Holocaust_Remembrance_Day
The International Day in memory of the victims of the Holocaust is thus a day on which we must reassert our commitment to human rights. We must also go beyond remembrance, and make sure that new generations know this history. We must apply the lessons of the Holocaust to today’s world. And we must do our utmost so that all peoples may enjoy the protection and rights for which the United Nations stands. — Message by Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon for the second observance of the Holocaust Victims Memorial Day on 19 January 2008

I like this idea:
New Dimensions in Testimony, a project that uses three-dimensional digital projection to enable students to interact virtually with Holocaust survivors, who appear as holograms and respond to questions in real time.... a technology coming of age.

George Santayana said it best: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." In light of current events one might add that those who deny the past are likewise cursed.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[Dreamwoven]

I have found a wordpress blog on the holocaust by the author of remember the holocaust. This is the link to that blog: https://holokauston.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/echoes-from-auschwitz-a-review/.

[Dreamwoven]

I also remember an uncle whose surname in Slovakia was Katz, he changed his name to Keen when he came to England. Of course all my relatives died long ago, I regret not having asked them about their past and how they came to England. Now when they are no more I would have so much to ask them!

[OrphanPip]

A bit of research gave me International Holocaust Remembrance Day... the 27th of January: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Holocaust_Remembrance_Day

I like this idea: ... a technology coming of age.

George Santayana said it best: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." In light of current events one might add that those who deny the past are likewise cursed.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

It's an interesting project. I remember in secondary school a holocaust survivor came to visit us after we had studied the holocaust in English class, adding a personal connection to history reminds people how very near to the present such atrocities are. My mother also used to work with a few holocaust survivors (she was an accountant), but these days there are very few survivors left and children seem totally desensitised to it.

[Dreamwoven]

It's an interesting project. I remember in secondary school a holocaust survivor came to visit us after we had studied the holocaust in English class, adding a personal connection to history reminds people how very near to the present such atrocities are. My mother also used to work with a few holocaust survivors (she was an accountant), but these days there are very few survivors left and children seem totally desensitised to it.

Too true, Orphan...

[Dreamwoven]

I was born after the Blitz, but in my childhood bomb sites were fairly common. As small kids we used to peer through gaps in the corrugated iron fences that were put up to block intruders. There were two such in the street where we lived, one at each end. Eventually the land was cleared of rubble etc, and built on, mostly high-rise flats for rent.

[Dreamwoven]

Toward the end of the war during the V1s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb) and V2 Rockets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket) in the late 1940s I was taken by my mother to the village of Silver End. It is a pleasant village in a rural setting, in East Anglia. I wasn't formally evacuated in the last months of the war but moved to Silver End by my mother.

You can read about its history here (http://www.silverendheritagesociety.co.uk/pages/history-of-silver-end). I was only 3 years old in 1945, and loved it. I still remember it, and the row of cottages, and my staying there with the couple who lived there: Mr. and Mrs Pollack. The Silver End website: http://www.silverendheritagesociety.co.uk/ contains a lot of information. I remember Mr. Pollack showing me how he could mix colours in a lens to create new colours.

It was from this time that I came to love the countryside. The one thing I remember about the village was its grocer shop which used a system of wires to send payments to a central till. I can't remember what they were called, but you can look them up on this website: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_carrier. They are not used any more. My memories of Silver End were vivid, that I still remember today.

After the war the Pollacks moved to Finchley in North London, but like so many other friends of the family, I lost touch with them. Their son became a dentist and withdrew two impacted wisdom teeth that I had. He played golf, thats about the sum of my knowledge of them. The last I remember of Mr. Pollack was when he came round to my parents' house and wept after the death of my uncle Sandor in 1950.

[Dreamwoven]

My wife and I went to visit my aunt, Babinéni when she was living in a small room in an old people's home in Cricklewood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricklewood). There was barely room for 2 chairs for visitors by the bed. She seemed lonely and unhappy, despite the fact that she was always cheerful in her life. We didn't stay long but returned to the house we were renting. This was in the late 1990s. My mother moved in with her other son and daughter-in-law shortly afterwards. I don't know what happened to Babinéni after that or how long she lived.

Babinéni hid my uncle in her flat in Czechoslovakia during the war years and they married and both came to Britain after the war. Belabácsi was a tailor and his small workshop off Oxford Street was located near to Savile Road, as discussed in a previous post in this thread.

[Dreamwoven]

It was my mother who held the extended family together, she used to bake cakes and biscuits, right up to near the end of her life. So when she died I lost contact with them all.

[Dreamwoven]

See also my latest post in the the thread From My Bookshelves (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?86568-From-My-Bookshelves&p=1335162#post1335162)

I still remember quite a lot of Hungarian, until the war ended in 1945 I lived in an entirely Hungarian-speaking household. After the war ended and my parents bought a house in London, so they began speaking English instead, as they they realised I probably should learn English. The war years to 1945 was when I absorbed much of the Hungarian language. But even afterwards I heard Hungarian spoken on the phone and in conversations with Hungarian relatives and friends. But they all addressed me in English.

The Budapest synagogue is on Tobacco Street (Dohany utca). http://www.greatsynagogue.hu/gallery_syn.html

[Dreamwoven]

In the early postwar years when I was still a child, my parents, together with Joci and her husband Sandor, bought a house in Harlesden. It was deliberately large, in case my father's family were found (it didn't happen, sadly). Joci knew many Viennese recipes and taught them to my mother (Joci was a flapper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapper) in her youth). For the rest of her life my mother baked cakes - Linzer Torte (https://smittenkitchen.com/2013/12/linzer-torte/) (from Linz in Austria) and Chocolate Cups, filled with melted chocolate and a drop of plum jam in the bottom, several different kinds of strudel (apple, (grounded nuts) strudel) being the most common, the strudel itself being kept moist.

The Viennese Coffee House spread to other countries, notably to Sweden, where I used to like princesstorta (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNLPXEgjYC8).

The similarity with German can be seen in the word torta (instead of torte).

See the following links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house
https://www.virtualvienna.net/the-city-its-people/history-vienna/
https://www.wien.gv.at/english/culture-history/viennese-coffee-culture.html

[Dreamwoven]

My father was born in Austria-Hungary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary), the Dual Monarchy. He was born around 1900, and died in 1979. During the First World War he got his call-up papers, but it was found he had a heart-murmer so was turned down.

Does no-one else on LitNet have a parent who was in the Dual Monarchy?

[Dreamwoven]

This post was originally published in The Definition of Power thread: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?86575-The-Definition-of-Power&p=1335728#post1335728.

So there are no publically-funded schools in Bangladesh? Or there are such schools but the 10 year olds feel pressured to go to work by their families?

My mother had to do this in 1930s Hungary, though not at the age of 10, after the period of compulsory school. Her father, who was a chronic alcoholic, quite simply insisted that she leave school and begin work to support the family, alongside her mother. She was the eldest child in the family with several younger brothers and sisters.

She decided to move to England and work as a maid to support her father's alcohol consumption. Which she did. She was good at school, she showed me her latest school results which were all excellent. The 1930s were a time when it was hard to find jobs.

So she went to England where upper middle class families had a maid, but no other servants. Her friend in the same village went with her, but to a different family.

[Dreamwoven]

I understood my mother's dislike of her father, we also saw him drunk once when we visited Maria's parents just after the 1939-45 war. The way to deal with him then was to do what my Grandmother did, and joke about how the floor slopes so he was unable to walk properly. It was pointless to argue with him, it just made him angry and caused dissension in the family. Maria felt her father (whose name was Kiss Jozsef -Kiss being his surname, meaning Little) had created a tension-filled family, and of course she resented him making her go to work (I think school-leaving age was 15 at the time).

It also explained how my mother was keen for her children to go to school and do well, and only then to get a job.

[Dreamwoven]

My father was born in Austria-Hungary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary), the Dual Monarchy. He was born around 1900, and died in 1979. During the First World War he got his call-up papers, but it was found he had a heart-murmer so was turned down.

Does no-one else on LitNet have a parent who was in the Dual Monarchy?

This is the legislation that divided the Habsburg Dynasty into two parts, one Austrian and one Hungarian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian_Compromise_of_1867 (Ausgleich). It gave Jews their own major language (Hungarian). The last emperor of the Dual Monarchy was Charles the First : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_Austria. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was abolished in the 1920 by the Treaty of Trianon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Trianon at the settlement of the First World War (which Germany and the Habsburg Empire lost, while Russia became the USSR). Hungary lost Czechoslovakia, Romania and Yugoslavia. Miklos Horthy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikl%C3%B3s_Horthy) spent the First World War, the interwar period and all the Second World War as Regent of the Hungarian St Stephen's Crown. To this day many Hungarians feel aggrieved at this demotion from a Great Power to a small country. In Hungary nationalism takes expression though this.

[Dreamwoven]

The end of the Habsburg Dynasty also meant that its capital city, Vienna, became the capital of the much smaller state of Austria. I liked Vienna. The Austrians were also very friendly (this was in the early 1950s). The book I bought by Frederic Moreton Thunder Twilight: Vienna 1913-1914 (Da Capo, paperback, 1951) gave a marvellous insight into the Austrian Empire. I will always be thankful to Joci for taking me to Austria and Czechoslovakia.

[Dreamwoven]

My jewish aunt, Joci, must have had some years as Flapper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapper) and even more so, in Vienna at the time of the Habsburg Empire. As a young teenager I was still ignorant about what kinds of things to ask my aunt. Many of my other relatives brought up in the Habsburg era would have many fine stories to tell of their lives. Its all too late now, sadly.

[Dreamwoven]

Most of my Jewish relatives spoke Hungarian, so they probably all had lived in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. I wish I knew about this in my teens, I could have asked questions...They are all long since dead by now.

[Dreamwoven]

This is copied and pasted from a file on my MacBook Pro Retina.

My maternal family came from northeast Hungary just across the border from Slovakia and geographically quite close to Levoča where my father’s family came from.
My mother, Maria, was born in Hungary in 1920 of peasant catholic parents, in the village of Rakamaz near Tokaj. She was the elder of two sisters by 10 years and with several brothers, older and younger. Her family lived in grinding rural poverty in a house with a beaten dirt floor, with water from an outside pump and an outside dry toilet. They had a smallholding with a pig, a couple of geese and a goat for milk. As the older daughter she worked alongside her mother to run the home. In her last school results at the age of 13 she did very well and would have continued had her father let her. She effectively had to choose between continuing to help run the household or getting a job, which at 13 was not really possible for a country girl - unless she went into service.
Quite apart from the personal challenge, how she went to Devon as a live-in maid is part of a little known historical context. The combination of unemployment and poverty in the 1920s and 1930s and the shortage of domestic servants in Britain in the inter-war years created a demand for young women from Central European countries to go to Britain to work as a maid. Train fares were paid by the employer, and wages were low as board and lodging were provided. Maria went to a Devon household, while her best friend, Anna, with whom she travelled to England, went as a live-in maid at the home of a senior Conservative Party politician in Sussex. Anna and Maria met whenever they could and remained close lifelong friends.
After the war the idea of having an au pair became popular among many suburban families.
This was one of the most enjoyable periods in Maria's life, spent in the house of a retired Life Guards officer - Major Hodgson - and his wife in the village of Georgeham. Photographs on the walls of trophy-hunting with Royals, especially Queen Mary, as well as number of stuffed mounted trophies adorned the entrance hall and the stairs up to the landing above. The owners were also keen gardeners. Maria was independent and had the use of a bicycle, which she used to go to the nearby beach at Putsborough Sands*to swim. She was even able to save small sums of money to send to her parents.
Just at that time Anna was visiting Maria in Georgeham and they were out cycling, when Zoltan heard them speaking Hungarian together. He called out “Magyarok?” (are you Hungarians?) and so my parents met.
They moved to London where Zoli’s relatives lived and where Anna also moved to find housing and work, as well as to start a family with a Hungarian, Gergely (Gregory) Kovacs.
From my earliest memories I felt a connection to the small piece of England that I have always called "North Devon". This is not to be confused with the more extensive Local Government District of North Devon. Since so many who read this are not British, it is worth describing the area. It is a landscape of abrupt hills with a quiltwork of small fields and deep lanes. The coast is rugged and wooded, ideal for walking the South West Coast Path* in "my" North Devon from Minehead to Lynton and Combe Martin. The coast gradually becomes lower and with extensive sandy beaches, round to Woolacombe, Braunton and the Barnstaple and Bideford estuaries.
Most of my knowledge of* North Devon is based on my mother’s life there. I have no recollection of my father talking about it at all. He was only there as a refugee.
I would only add at this point that my father was greatly embittered by his experience of the war, and the loss of almost all his relatives left behind. The extent of the loss only emerged slowly after the end of the war, and his distress and anger made a deep impression on me. So much so, that when I became a researcher I invested most of my energies in writing about the re-emergence of Germany as a dominant power in Europe and the ordoliberal basis that underlies that. Now as my academic career draws to a close and my published research is limited to a blog of reminiscences, I can see clearly the results of this.
Anna Kovacs

3 April 1920 – 31 March 2008

Anna was born in Rakamaz Hungary. Her parents both died within months of each other when she was just 10. She was brought up in her village of Rakamaz by her Grandmother. *In 1937/1938 she and her lifelong friend Maria applied to go to England to work as domestics. *Maria left for England a few months before Anna and they both reunited in Devon.

Maria met her husband to be - Zoli - in Devon and after a while all three left Devon. *Anna went to work for Mr. Gate, who was a Member of Parliament, in Godalming near Guildford in Surrey as a cook and as Anna could not speak English this proved to be a difficult time for her until she was able to study and learn the language. *Her friend Maria and Zoli went to London where later they built a life together and lived in Willesden for many years. *Maria had a younger sister Elizabeth who also came out from Hungary in December 1947.

In 1947 Anna left Godalming and went to work for Mr. & Mrs. Eisner in Hampstead Heath as a cook where she was joined by Elizabeth who was employed as Silver Service /Parlor Maid. During this time Anna met Gregley (Gregory) a Hungarian from Debrecen near Budapest. He and his friend Joseph, who was to become Elizabeth’s husband, were working in a brick factory in Bradford. By special arrangement both men were allowed to come to London and it was here that they first met. 1950 Anna and Gregley were married as were Joseph and Elizabeth. Anna, Maria and Elizabeth were to continue being lifelong friends. Anna and Gregley set up home in Tavistock Road just of the Portabello Road and in 1952 their first of three children Stephen was born. Elizabeth was to be his Godmother. In 1954 their first daughter Susan was born and in 1956 their second daughter Yana was born. During the mid fifties and early sixties Anna Maria and Elizabeth keep in close touch and their respective children grew up together.

In October 1963 Anna and Gregley left London and moved into Stockwell Road in East Grinstead Sussex were Gregley continued his trade as a shoemaker working for the Royal National Orthopedic Hospital and John Lob of London - http://www.johnlobb.com/uk/ - and Anna continued to cook working in such places as the Corner House where her cooking abilities became well known in the town. Life continued and in June 1983 sadly Gregley passed away at a young age of 65. Anna’s children had between them had seven Children and three Great Grandchildren.

Anna was well known within the community and was always spoken of as being approachable and friendly. Over the coming years Anna became increasing ill and suffered greatly with her Osteoporosis and breathing difficulties. Late in January 2008 Anna became critically ill however her strong character and resolve got her through it. Sadly on Monday 31 March 2008 Anna passed away. She will be greatly missed by her family and friends.

[Dreamwoven]

The Guttman sisters, Bözsi and Aliz, were always known as Guttman lányok (the Guttman girls). They lived in Belzise Park. Bözsi was the extrovert with attitude and often wore a fox stole complete with head and tail, while Aliz was quiet and submissive. I could imagine Bözsi as a flapper in her youth. They had a parrot or budgerigar that could talk and was company, especially for Bözsi. And yes, the Guttman sisters spoke Hungarian, so they were Austro-Hungarians.

[Dreamwoven]

The Treaty of Trianon and its Consequences: Like so many East European countries, Hungary is deep in sovereign debt. This is the problem with the euro that no-one talks about, it is like an*iceberg with only 10 percent of the real debt showing above the water.*In the case of Hungary it was around 60% of GDP but has risen since 2005 to 80 percent in 2013 (http://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/hungary).
Hungary has also lost much of its territory and also population after the 1920*Treaty of Trianon. Large minorities of Hungarians were left in territories taken away from the ancient Kingdom of Hungary. We are talking here large numbers - amounting to nearly a third of Hungary's native Hungarian-speaking population! The rise of the far right*Jobbik*is clearly related to the combination of these two factors: sovereign debt in the Euro and a deep sense of grievance after the loss of a large proportion of its ethnic Hungarian population - a loss after the First World War that is without parallel in Europe.
There is also a handy racial scapegoat in Hungary where there are still considerable numbers of jews living, mostly in Budapest. The Wikipedia item on History of the Jews in Hungary*says very little about the modern percentage of jews in Hungary, despite being one of the longer and more complex of entries. Horthy's position was somewhat ambiguous. See*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miklós_Horthy#World_War_II_and_the_Holocaust. But it is clear that the large minority of Jews in Budapest makes them the most visible minority in Hungary today.
The Talk page of the wikipedia item on*Miklós Horthy*leads with the following quote: "Elbaszta Hitler a háborút és így az egész magyarságot" (this very loosely translates as "Hitler ****ed up the war, and with that the idea of an ethnic Hungary"). It is quite clear that anti-semitism is fairly widespread among Jobbik supporters. See this*BBC report of 4 May 2013*on the Jobbik demonstrations against the holding of the Jewish World Congress in Budapest. See this*BBC report and short recording*in which Viktor Orbán distances himself from anti-semitism. Note also his body-language when he greets the Representative of the Jewish world Congress. Orbán leads the Christian Democrats, this being the largest governing party, though he has still to humour his racist coalition allies.
I have to confess I had no idea of the prominence of the Budapest jewish community, as none of my maternal Hungarian relatives were jewish. Never the less, it makes me wonder if some of the children of my maternal cousins (i.e my second cousins) might be young enough to feel the same way as Jobbik supporters.
The parallels with*Raoul Wallenberg*were striking. See also the*Jewish Virtual Library*(both Wallenberg and Horthy). This was under the regime of*Admiral Horthy, who tried but failed to maintain neutrality (a futile attempt, given the overwhelming power of Germany)*, as well as preserve the ancient Crown of St. Stephen by his adoption of the title of Regent of Hungary:*Hungary's Royal House goes back to the year 1000 AD, one of the oldest in Europe.
So Horthy was hoping to re-establish the monarchy but he effectively became a Nazi puppet, a*Quisling, despite his intentions.
So why has Hungary been discriminated in the way it has, and why has not the Treaty of Trianon been revised to make ethnic Hungary coincide better with the state boundaries? Germany was forced to accept the Oder-Neiss Line as its eastern border, and the huge displacement of Germans from the former eastern provinces accepted as part of the price. *The answer is partly at least that Hungary is a smaller country than Germany, so absorbing so many Hungarians was much harder. Hungary also lacked the ordoliberal policies of Germany and it was*in power politics terms*not important enough for the upheaval of so many neighbouring countries. This one-post blog on The Trianon Dilemma: justice for Europe!*gives a good overview of the situation. The comments are also worth reading.*

[Magnocrat]

An interesting thread showing how concerned many are to trace their past. I suspect as we age we look back more to our origins, possibly because they link us to a world we must soon leave. Mormons have religious reasons and I know a few who spend their holidays in generational research. National Geographic have found the scientific Adam who stepped out of Africa about sixty thousand years ago. It is the miracle of DNA not only linking homo sapiens but all life seen through the telescope of time.
I'm in two minds whether to let sleeping dogs lie, or by starting to dig uncover an impossible task. Graveyards are fascinating places and they demonstrate that we are essentially Newtonian when it comes to the ticking of the clock in spite of Einstein's discoveries.

[Dreamwoven]

Your dilemma is understandable. I've surprised myself at how much I know about my family, but these postings on my mac can be from way back, just copied and re-copied over and over, onto each new Mac I bought down the years. It is probably rather late to start now, but I wish you all the best should you do so.

[Magnocrat]

I think on the whole let it go , after all we barely know our grandparents let alone those further back. It is interesting to note how many famous people in the lime light , burn or destroy their past records as the time approaches. The question how would you like to be remembered cries out for a flattering reply and those dusty unsavoury skeletons are best totally buried.

[Dreamwoven]

Grandparents are as far back as I have gone, certainly not further. I've met my maternal grandparents but not my paternal.

[Dreamwoven]

When I was a small child, my father used to take me to Wembley to go skating. I used hired skates, and it was terribly crowded. All going round in the same direction, with the centre left free for practicing figure skating. My father must have done this as a child on lakes in Slovakia. Most skaters must have been as clumsy as I was, often holding on to the edge of the ice rink for support. I only went a few times, and gave up.

[Dreamwoven]

Strč prst skrz krk
Posted on December 16, 2012
I learned this grammatical sentence by heart while visiting friends and the very few relatives in Slovakia who survived the war, either by hiding in the forests or as members of the Slovak partizans during the Slovak National Uprising. My father’s sister took me with her – my father refused to return to Slovakia and held to that for the rest of his life. I was in my early teens, when I first went to Slovakia and we had a good friend of the family, Irma, who was a Slovak member of the Communist Party, who also spoke Hungarian, was vociferous in her defence of her jewish friends, and who told me the sentence was in Czech.

Now, half a century later, out of idle curiosity I did an internet search for Strč prst skrz krk. I was amazed to find it in the English wikipedia. There seems to be a lot of confusion over whether it is in the Slovak language or the Czech language. If anyone knows either language they might like to look at the lengthy and sometimes contradictory discussion pages of both languages. Not knowing either language I am completely unable to judge. I wonder if it is a result of the formal separation of Bohemia-Moravia from Slovakia to form two states in 1993 that makes the distinction suddenly a matter of national pride? See also the differences between Slovak and Czech languages.

A minor aside here – Wikipedia is very useful for linguistics, often using a spectrogram and symbols based on a Phonetic Alphabet. See also the items on shibboleth and list of shibboleths. The latter item provides numerous examples of these as ways of determining ethnic, class or other kinds of ingroup-outgroup membership distinctions, allowing for subtle and complex categorisations. Apparently useful in unmasking cover in counter-espionage.

I had no idea that there are apparently even longer Czech grammatical sentences without any vowels. In case they disappear in later Wikipedia edits I quote them here:

“An even longer phrase in Czech with no vowels is Chrt pln skvrn vtrhl skrz trs chrp v čtvrť Krč. (“A greyhound full of stains burst through a cluster of cornflowers in the district of Krč”), though it relies on irregular and dated forms, whereas Strč prst skrz krk does not. A variation is Plch pln skvrn prch skrz drn prv zhlt čtvrt hrst zrn (“A dormouse full of stains escaped through grass after first eating a quarterhandful of grain”).”

Strč prst skrz krk! is the sub-title of the Swiss critical review La Distinction, as can be seen on its home page immediately under the title itself. No explanation is provided as to why this particular sub-title was chosen.

I went to Hungary and Slovakia several times as a child and teenager, the first time to Hungary with my mother in the summer of 1948, when I was only five years old. Later I went with my paternal Aunt Joci to both Hungary where I met many of my Hungarian relatives, and to Slovakia. I hope to be able to include a couple of very impressionistic research notes on this.

[Dreamwoven]

These notes, like that preceding, do not enable the writer to "go advanced", as is usual in the LitNet forums. I've copied and pasted the links into the text where this is possible (what a shame that LitNet has become so watered down!).

20 Sept 2012
Historical Context: My father was one of a group of Slovak Jewish relatives who fled during the late 1930s, a time of looming war clouds as Czechoslovakia broke up from the results of the Chamberlain-Hitler Munich Agreement*(see the map in the section on Resolution). Just how complex this breakup process was can be seen in the wikipedia entries on*Czechoslovakia and the Slovak-Hungarian War. At the time, Hungary was ruled by a Regent, Miklos Horthy from 1920 to 1944. The title of Regent was intended to indicate that the Hungarian Crown was being preserved out of the Dual Monarchy (Horthy was an Admiral in the Habsburg Empire).
The Horthy Government tried in vain to maintain armed neutrality,*but this was, of course, impossible under German domination. Horthy actually ordered the invasion and occupation of Slovakia. Even Poland obtained a small piece of Slovak territory as Central Europe began to disintegrate into the German vortex, to be followed by a disillusioned Neville Chamberlain announcing Britain’s unilateral declaration of war on Germany on 3rd September 1939. See the Guardian Observer Article of 6 September 1939: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/06/second-world-war-declaration-chamberlain.

Who could have predicted that the Second World War would have been started by Britain and that the casus belli would be, in Neville Chamberlain’s words as he despaired of Germany respecting the Munich Agreement:
“How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war."

The quarrel refers, of course, to the German claim to the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia's mountainous border defences. There is also now much more information on the war in other respects. This website on Slovakia geneology research strategies is a mine of information, including an interactive map and much fascinating cultural background: http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/history.htm

This was the first throwback to the long period of laissez-faire of the 1800s (the second throwback being the current one from the 1950s - Thatcherism and Reaganomics). It was the first throwback that formed the basis of Karl Polanyi's classic research on extremist politics.

The escape from Czechoslovakia: was made by a group of 6 relatives of which my father, Zoli - who was still single but in his 20s* - was the only unattached adult. The party was made up of two families: (1) Willie and Anci Weisz and their school-aged son George; (2) my father, Zoltan Kemeny and his older half-sister Joci (pronounced Yotsi) Kovacs and her husband Sandor Kovacs, both middle aged and with no children (all spellings follow my own capricious usage, being an anglicised version of the Hungarian). I only knew Sandor as Shani (S in Hungarian is pronounced as “sh”).

The intention was for all of them to continue from London to America. They had obtained a visa to Haiti by the bribe of a stamp collection.
Why Haiti of all places, I have always wondered. Was it not already a dictatorship under Papa Doc? In Wikipedia I found the answer. Under the*Monroe Doctrine*of US hegemony in all the Americas, Haiti was under a transition from US occupation to independence that stretched to 1941 which was when control of the budget was finally transferred to Haiti*(See under US. Occupation of Haiti 1915-1934).

It was, of course, impossible to cross the Atlantic during war-time so when Britain declared war on Germany in September 1939 this held the plan up until the end of the war 6 years later. For my father it held up the plan permanently, as he met and married my mother, Maria Kiss, a Hungarian Catholic in 1941, and with my birth in September 1942 they decided to settle permanently in London. Joci and Shani decided also to stay with them.
The early 1920s hyperinflation hit Czechoslovakia hard - see*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian_krone*and*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920s_German_inflation*hyperinflation in the Weimar Republic.* In the 1930s Great Depression the Czechoslovak economy was in ruins with currencies losing their value.

As refugees were not allowed to take out anything other than the clothes they wore, they spent whatever they had on bribes to be allowed to leave. A stamp album was traded for a visa to America. It was common for people to secret two or three low denomination gold coins into their clothes, e.g. disguised as*crochet*buttons. Both Anci and Joci could crochet.
But if the refugees were taking precautions, so were the Nazi German border guards. Even as the refugee train steamed west, events were moving fast. They did not figure that there would be such a thorough search as to make this easy to detect. When it was discovered, and the guard asked whose coat this was, it was met with horrified looks and a stunned silence. The guard then threatened that if no-one confessed everyone in the carriage would be arrested and thrown into jail! Zoltan as the only unmarried adult member of the party said he did it, so he was arrested and taken off the train, though released later.

Where*this happened is impossible now for me to ascertain, but it was most likely on the border between Bratislava and Vienna, probably after the Anschluss*in Spring 1938. As a teenager I went via Vienna-Bratislava many times in visits to relatives.

The delay until Zoli could rejoin his relatives meant that they were stranded in London when the war broke out. They were helped by Quaker volunteers who provided them with donations of both clothes and some cash, as well as organised a medical check and work for those able to do so. I have no idea why Zoli ended up in North Devon. At first he could have been interned there as a citizen of a country at war with Britain. There is an evocative description of this in the BBC archive of*peoples’ memories of WW2. It is clear that formal internment camps were not an obvious solution. Makeshift arrangements using temporary storage in, for example, abandoned aerodrome buildings with mattresses on the floor as described in the preceding link was probably common. But being a citizen of Czechoslovakia rather than Germany or Italy it is more likely that he went directly into work in North Devon on the land. It would all depend on when they arrived in London, before Czechoslovakia was dismembered or after. There was a*Czechoslovak Government-in-exile*based in London and headed by Edvard Beneš. In any event, I believe Zoli picked tulips for a while. See*The Women’s Land Army: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_Land_Army.

So however it happened, Zoli ended up in North Devon where he met and married Maria Kiss, a Catholic Hungarian. This was why neither he nor Shani and Joci Kovacs completed their emigration to America. They stayed as part of a network of Hungarian-speaking Jewish and Catholic relatives in London. At the same time the Weisz family with a son who was the right age to start an education at Hackney Technical College could use the time in Britain for education and prepare to do a university degree at UCLA. George Weisz is the one remaining survivor of this refugee party (now in his 90th year) who made that fateful journey. I have been in email correspondence with him for some 20 years (this text was written down in 2012).

[tailor STATELY]

I've been enjoying your thoughts. I'm thinking these stories need to be attached to your family history in a less ephemeral way. I might suggest you get a free Family Search account... https://familysearch.org (or some other venue) and attach your memories to a family tree you create or other members of your family have created.

[Dreamwoven]

Thanks, Stately. Unfortunately, the links don't work so I can't create an ID to give me access.

[Dreamwoven]

Unfortunately, the links seem to be broken, I wonder if I am doing something wrong, I can't log in to the website either.

[Danik 2016]

I tried it out DW, for me the page appears in Portuguese. Seems to be ok but I didn´t post anything.Try changing the language to see if the problem persists.

[Dreamwoven]

Thanks for that tip Danik. I tried setting it to English but just get a blank page.

[tailor STATELY]

Sorry for the difficulty, I'll try some digging to see what might be wrong (the link works fine for me).

Here's some help from https://familysearch.org/ask/salesforce/viewArticle?urlname=How-to-register-for-a-FamilySearch-Account-or-LDS-Account-1381813676484&lang=en


Registering to use FamilySearch.org ( https://familysearch.org/ )


Issues Addressed


•How do I register for a free account at FamilySearch.org?

•How do I register for Family Tree at FamilySearch.org?
•How to register for an LDS Account or FamilySearch Account?






Information


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Hope this helps,
tailor

[Dreamwoven]

Thanks, I still have problems registering, though. For some reason the website does not like what I am trying to do. Nor do they even ask me for an email address. Well, never mind, I'll just leave it.

[Dreamwoven]

Púchov, Slovakia, is where my father was living when Hitler
absorbed Czechoslovakia into the Third Reich. Joci took me there a
couple of times, though I have only the vaguest memory of it as a
town. We visited it at least once in winter, as I remember the Váh
River when it was freezing. I'd never seen this before, looking as if it
were steaming, so it stuck in my mind. I am not even sure I
understand why we went in winter, but we did. We must have gone
a couple of times to Púchov, as we also spent an autumn there, I was
invited to join a bear hunt but Joci would not agree to me doing
that, as she thought it was too dangerous, and once we picked
mushrooms. The most common we picked was cep, which in
Sweden is called Karl Johan:

"The French-born King Charles XIV John popularised B. edulis in
Sweden after 1818,[27] and is honoured in the local vernacular
name Karljohanssvamp as well as the Danish name Karl Johan
svamp".

Karl Johan is better known in Sweden as the founder of the Swedish Bernadotte dynasty, Karl XIV Johan, from its first king, the French Army Marshall Jean Bernadotte.

My father never talked about his time in Púchov, I have pieced
together what little I know from things he said in passing. As I
understand this, he had a gymnasium education but when Slovakia
became part of the Third Reich he was not allowed to work using his education. He must have had some kind of work originally that
reflected his level of education, though what that was remains a
mystery to me. He mentioned two trades that he developed for
himself. The first was that of stone mason, though what that
involved is unclear. The other was selling soda water. I only
extrapolate here from a passing comment he made once when he
was carbonating water using disposable carbon dioxide cartridges.
They looked difficult to use so I asked him how he came to be
making this. He said he used to sell the soda water in Púchov.

There is another aspect of this that I wonder about. My father
seemed to be what in Sweden is called a "dandelion child", maskrosbarn (the
dandelion is the flower that is used as the Swedish Greens to
symbolise the flower that grow up by pushing itself through the
concrete).

Zoli was the youngest child of the first wife of his father
who died in childbirth. His father re-married and his second wife
seemed to have disliked Zoli, as indeed is common in step-mothers
(see the Wikipedia website on stepfamily, especially the section on
stepmothers and the extensive fiction literature on this).

This would explain much about Zoli's feeling of isolation and his taciturn
nature. The same pattern repeats itself on the journey to England
where Zoli claimed the "blame" (being the only single adult in the
group) for smuggling small coins in the coat of one of the adults and
spent time in a Nazi prison that kept the whole party in England waiting for his release, by which time Chamberlain had declared was on Germany.
I must remember to ask George Weisz. Born in 1927, he would have been about 10 and may well have remembered the events
surrounding their attempts to leave for America, their application
for a visa to Haiti, which the self-styled "Regent" of Hungary,
Miklós Horthy and his government - see the earlier post on
Hungary - had to be bribed to obtain (with, I believe, Zoli's stamp
collection).

Then as now, the 1930s wave of neoliberalism brought
with it extensive political corruption and greed. See also earlier
posts on Karl Polanyi and the new poverty.

Another link I am able to make here is the role played by a Christian
woman who has always puzzled me. Her name was Irma, and it was Irma who told me of the Czech expression Strč prst skrz krk, (meaning “stick your finger through your throat” See the wikipedia item on this, and other Slovak expressions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Str%C4%8D_prst_skrz_krk. She had a grown son at the time called Roman.

I don't know her surname but she was very self-assertive and now I wonder if she had been vociferous in defending Joci and Zoli from the doubtless mobbing and hostility on the part of the anti-Semites in Puchov. (at this time Slovakia was part of Admiral Horthy's Hungary).

[Dreamwoven]

Kissin' Cousins.

Joci also took me to Hungary to visit my maternal relatives, all brothers of my mother. We also visited my grandparents in Rakamaz. For some reason the only relatives we stayed with in Hungary was the family of Kiss Misi. No relatives lived in Budapest, it would seem, as we stayed in a hotel. Misi lived in a detached house in Miskolc-Pereces. I have no memory of staying anywhere else. Misi had bought a Volkswagen Beetle and was inordinately proud of it, keeping it and its engine polished bright. He even gave it a pet name: "my Foxy", short for Volkswagen. Hungarians were always inordinately proud of their material possessions, probably because under communism they were starved of material wealth.
In any event, his eldest child, Manci (short for Margaret), was about my age and she was very affectionate. Every photo I have with her on it she is clinging to whoever she was with, and of course I responded, dazzled by her flirtatious charms. We were after all only 15 years old, but it was a summer thing only. Then when she wrote to my mother asking if she could come to visit us, fares paid by Maria, I encouraged my mother to agree. I thought to show her around London and who knows, we might have hit it off more seriously.
But when she came she was not the same person, very distant and critical of everything in London. She even made fun of the London accent, imitating the London way of saying "queue" instead of "thank you". It was a disaster, and I believed from her comments that she had met someone in Hungary with whom she was considering a more serious relationship. I had actually met him in my last days in Hungary.
She went back to Hungary and I never saw her again. But I did hear, much later, that her marriage was unhappy, and marked by violence and alcohol. By then I just felt sorry for her. I was always reminded by the Presley film Kissin' Cousins.*My brother had an almost identical relationship at an equally tender age with an English catholic cousin of ours, also the child of a Hungarian immigrant, Böbe, Maria’s younger sister.

[Dreamwoven]

The last visit to Slovakia that Joci took me on was to the town where my father’s family lived for generations. One of Zoli's brothers had traced the family name back some 400 years, first as German - Hartmann - and then after 1867 the Hungarian version of this, meaning Hard. Presumably the Hungarian version
became legal during the Dual Monarchy following the Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867. My paternal grandfather was a
proud Hungarian nationalist, and had named his sons after the Hun leaders like Attila and Árpád. He had a job on the railways as
a signal box operator. He resigned his position rather than swear the loyalty oath to Masaryk, the leader of the newly-formed
Czechoslovak Republic. He was running an old-style signal box, which today is a rarity, so while Joci wanted to visit the one where
her father worked, I suspect they would have been destroyed during the war. In any event we did not go. The signal box lever equipment
at the time probably looked like this. My Grandfather did not get his job back when it became clear that the Treaty of Trianon (1920)
resulted in the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. My guess is that my paternal grandfather died in Auschwitz, in the
1940s, like all his other relatives who stayed in Slovakia.

The Political Situation: There was a period in 1938/39 when Slovakia was invaded and occupied by Hungary under the regency
of Miklós Horthy. Later, the ruler of Slovakia during the Nazi era was the Roman Catholic priest Jozef Tiso, under whom Slovakia
was a satellite state of Nazi Germany. The Wikipedia page on Jozef Tiso shows how closely the Slovak position concerning its Jews was
in line with Nazi Germany:
"The Party under Tiso's leadership aligned itself with Nazi policy on anti-Semitic legislation in Slovakia. The main act was the Jewish
Code, under which Jews in Slovakia could not own any real estate or luxury goods, were excluded from public office and free
occupations, could not participate in sport or cultural events, were excluded from secondary schools and universities, and were
required to wear the star of David in public."

The Jewish Code in Nazi legislation both in the Third Reich and its satellites is described in this Wikipedia page on Anti-Jewish laws. It
can be seen in the Wikipedia page on Slovakia's Anti-Jewish laws that these were introduced in 1939 making Slovakia the first
satellite state to do so, the first two being Nazi Germany (1933) and Fascist Italy (1938).
We went to visit the ruined and abandoned Jewish Cemetery.See Ruth Ellen Gruber. The inscriptions were in German,
Hungarian and Slovak, I didn't see any in Hebrew. It was an eerie feeling seeing a leaning gravestone with my surname on it in a
remote and windswept hillside in Czechoslovakia.

The First Letter from Levoča after WW2: The original copy of this letter is no longer legible, but some years ago I made some notes on what little I could make out. The letter was written in Slovak and dated 7/x, 1945, some 5 months after the Unconditional surrender
of Germany. It was written by Lajos who we met in Levoča on the last visit Joci took me on in 1956. Lajos was Hungarian and had the
letter been written in that language instead of in Slovak I could have understood much more.

The Holocaust in Slovakia: The Holocaust train (Wikipedia) gives this information under Slovakia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_train

"On 9 September 1941, the parliament of "independent" Slovakia—a Nazi puppet state—ratified the Jewish Codex, a series of laws and regulations that stripped Slovakia's 80,000 Jews of their civil rights and all means of economic survival. The fascist Slovak leadership was so impatient to get rid of Jews that it paid the Nazis DM 500 in exchange for each expelled Jew and a promise that the deportees would never return to Slovakia. The decision by Slovakia to initiateand pay for the expulsion was unprecedented among the satellitestates of Nazi Germany. They paid 40 millions RM to the SS."

The Visit to Levoča: At a height of 2,000 feet Levoča has a beautiful setting, and at the time we were there (Mid-1950s) much of the
town was inside its Mediaeval walls, enhancing its beauty. There was much I don’t remember and much also that I failed at the time
to realise its significance. Lajos told us a lot about life in Levoča under Tiso and how local politicians would shoot any Jew seen in
the town from their upper windows. Perhaps there was a bounty on dead Jews as Tiso paid for the expulsion of Jews from Slovakia the
sum of 40 Million Reichmarks:

expulsion was unprecedented among the satellite states of Nazi Germany. They
They paid 40 millions RM to the SS.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Holocaust_train#Slovakia. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Slovak_Republic_(1939–1945)#The_Slovak_Republic_an d_the_Holocaust) for
further information on this.

Lajos and Jolan at some point fled to the forests of the Low Carpathians and survived by picking berries and mushrooms and
exchanging these plus whatever cash savings they took with them for food and barn shelter. Their daughter, Cita. Another Zoli, Jewish
and an engineer, joined the partisans near the end of the war and fought the SS Unit in the approaches to Slovakia to help the Red
Army approaching Slovakia from the east.

The Slovak Partisan Movement: See Slovak Partisans, Slovak
National Uprising, The Battle for Dukla Pass

[Dreamwoven]

This post gathers together the information I have managed to
collect on my parents background and how they met. It is an
interesting history of two people who spoke the same language
(Hungarian) but who lived in two different countries Hungary and
Slovakia - just some one hundred kilometres from each other's
home towns (Tokaj and Levoĉa, respectively). Tokaj is a few
kilometres walk from the village of Rakamaz where both my mother and her best friend, Nusi, were
born).
I have visited all the places in both countries, thanks to Joci, my
Jewish aunt, who took me as a young teenager to visit the people
and places involved. I am aware what a privilege this has been for
me and this is my way of thanking Joci for all she did.
These two countries have unusually complex histories. they were
both under Nazi domination during the war. Slovakia was ruled by a
Catholic priest, Jozef Tiso, who, as head of independent
Slovakia between 1939 and 1945 became a puppet of Nazi Germany.
How much he resisted or not is unclear. There is very obviously
much lack of clarity around the history of Tiso's rule of Slovakia.
Hungary was likewise ruled by a self-styled Regent, Miklós Horthy,
who was an Admiral in the Austro-Hungarian Navy. He claimed
Regent status on the grounds that the Holy Crown of Hungary, the
Crown of St. Stephen, should pass to whoever would be eligible as
successor to the last crowned head of Hungary - Charles I of
Austria, successor to Franz Joseph who founded the Dual Monarchy
(see the Wikipedia entry on Charles I from which the extract below
is taken).
"Charles I of Austria or Charles IV of Hungary (Karl Franz Joseph
Ludwig Hubert Georg Otto Marie; 17 August 1887 – 1 April 1922)
was, among other titles, the last ruler of the Austro-Hungarian
Empire. He was the last Emperor of Austria, the last King of
Hungary,[1]the last King of Bohemia and Croatia and the last King of
Galicia and Lodomeria and the last monarch of the House of
Habsburg-Lorraine. He reigned as Charles I as Emperor of Austria
and Charles IV as King of Hungary from 1916 until 1918, when he
"renounced participation" in state affairs, but did not abdicate. He
spent the remaining years of his life attempting to restore the
monarchy until his death in 1922. Following his beatification by
the Catholic Church, he has become commonly known as Blessed
Charles of Austria."
I have visited Budapest several times with Joci. It is a particularly
beautiful city. The Fisherman's Bastion above Buda and with
extensive views over the Danube and Pest. is replete with images
and statues celebrating the old Hungary of Stephen I, crowned as
King in 1000 AD.
Austria-Hungary was dissolved in the Treaty of Trianon which left
the Crown of Hungary without a claimant. Admiral Horthy intended
himself to be Regent until that claimant emerged. Hungary was
particularly disadvantaged by the complexity of the Dual Monarchy
arrangement, together with the fact that while the other empires
dissolved by the treaty - Germany, Austria, Russia, were simpler to
keep intact (though by no means non-controversial) and Hungary
was politically too insignificant to worry about by the victors of
World War I. This website - http://
www.americanhungarianfederation.org/FamousHungarians//
trianon.htm (the link is in English and still works) - gives some indication of how strong feelings there are
concerning the dismemberment of Hungary. The Wikipedia page on
Stephen I (see above) is useful in showing how strong feelings are
still today over Hungary's treatment at Trianon. It is a profound
irony that this underlies the electoral strength of Jobbik in Hungary
today, and that it does so using antisemitism as a basis. There is
also probably an anti-German element in this, and the fact that
Hungary has not adopted the euro (see Hungary and the euro).
The Hungarian Second Army fought its way east from Hungary
alongside the Germans as far as Stalingrad. It was virtually
destroyed, suffering 84 percent casualties in the Russian breakout
from Stalingrad that comprised the turning of the tide in the Second
World War. The main focus of the Soviet offensive was to encircle
and destroy the 6th Army under Von Paulus, which it successfully
completed.
I've made the Eastern Campaign a major focus of my research,
partly because the approach to Stalingrad across the River Don took
place around the time of my birth. The main books I used were
Alexander Werth Russia at War: 1941-1945 (Pan Books, 1964)
Alan Clark Barbarossa: The Russian-German Conflict
1941-1945 (Penguin Books, 1966)
Anthony Beevor Stalingrad: the fateful siege 1942-1943 (Penguin,
1998)

[Dreamwoven]

I've come to understand that Joci was an important link person in our London life. She kept in touch with her sister Anci and visited her in Sheboygan, crossing the Atlantic on Cunard's Queen Mary. Anci did the same journey in reverse. Joci also introduced Maria to baking, as she*had a lot of recipes for continental cakes, like*sachertorte,*apple strudel,*rigo jancsi, Kugelhopf*- or kuglóf*(Hungarian) as I knew it - and*Linzer torte*(Linzer Torta) are all classic Dual Monarchy Habsburg era recipes.

Joci had a book of hand-written recipes in Hungarian and she and Maria made strudel with extremely thin pastry. Very difficult - I remember how they used to gently waft the pastry that had been stretched thin over the kitchen table by holding the flour-dusted cloth it was made on, to get air under it, so stretching it still further.

They baked for those who had come from Austria or other Habsburg countries like Hungary and Czechoslovakia, and many of their customers were jewish (the northwest is one of the main jewish areas of London with Golders Green, Finchley, Hampstead Garden Suburb, Willesden Green). At busy times they worked though the night. Sometimes I helped by dropping some plum jam in each chocolate cup pastry form they made. Pouring the melted chocolate to fill the cups was much harder that I left well alone. Later I delivered cakes to customers by car.*I only took my licence when I was 19, and went to University soon after, though whenever I visited my parents I helped out by undertaking deliveries.

It was nerve-wracking work, and if things went badly they often had to scrap that particular bake and start again.

As their reputation grew and became better known this became their main work and major source of family income, especially after Zoli got too ill to work (making beaver lamb in the East End). Beaver lamb was made from sheepskins that were chemically treated to look like fur. The treatment process my father had to use involved formaldehyde, and working it in a small glassed-in area with a working table (I was not allowed in, of course). There is a description of working of lambskins n the early 1900s in this website:
http://www.oldandsold.com/articles09/furs.shtml. With travelling he had always had a very long day. He was very good at preparing beaver lamb, and the glassed in work area was jokingly called his “gas chamber”.

He left that job eventually and bought the goodwill of a sweet and tobacconist shop in Kilburn and worked there long hours, earning very little but always worrying about its economics. I cycled in to give him a hand as well as keep him company during this time.

For me, personally, there is a third reason. I benefited greatly from the many journeys Joci took me to Czechoslovakia and Hungary. That way, I also met many of my catholic relatives in Hungary, whom I otherwise would never have known. The last time was to Levoĉa, meeting Lajos and his wife Jolán, both were gentle and sweet, and had suffered so much during the war hiding in the forests. We also met another Zoli who joined the partisans, though I can't remember his surname.*The Slovak Resistance Movement including the Slovak Partisans had Jewish Brigades in it, though I have no idea whether my uncle and his wife, Cita, fought in a Jewish Brigade or not. They probably fought holding the Dukla Pass connecting Slovakia and Poland and through which the Red Army had to fight to reach Slovakia. See also The Battle of the Dukla Pass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Dukla_Pass

[Dreamwoven]

The Habsburg Empire:
is one of the few - perhaps the only - Great Power Empire in modern history to have been created and developed through marriages. Based on Vienna, it produced a rich multicultural tradition in widely differing fields of human endeavour that lasted 500 years - half a millenium: The House of Habsburg.

This thread will be about the influence of the Habsburg Empire on modern life. I became inspired to think more on this from having recently read Frederic Morton Thunder at Twilight: Vienna, 1913-1914.

Morton’s book explores many of the ideas that were spawned in Vienna - psychoanalysis by Freud and Jung; the Serbian restlessness leading to the assassination of the heir of Franz-Joseph that triggered World War 1; the unification of Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, and Montenegro that was Josip Broz Tito’s achievment, in creating the non-aligned state of Yugoslavia. Sadly, it did not long outlast him.

Adolf Hitler also lived and worked in Vienna at this time. He was an Austrian ciizen, born in Linz. The Russian revolutionaries did all their early work in Vienna, (Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin), leading to the creation of the USSR after the First World War. The flowering of music in Vienna, both what we know today as classical music (Brahms, Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart), but also of much popular music like the Viennese Waltz, and the work of Johann Strauss (both the Elder and the Younger). See also Tales from the Vienna Woods.

Finally the creation of the Dual Monarchy in 1867 (Austria-Hungary), otherwise known as the Ausgleich (or compromise), had a number of results that probably were not realised at the time. One consequence of which was the elevation of the Hungarian language to equality with German. This in turn resulted in the adoption of the Hungarian language by much of the Jewish population of the Hungarian Crown lands. This gave them what at the time was a major European language - Hungarian - instead of Yiddish.

Hungary suffered the same fate as Austria from the results of the First World War. But the repercussions of the ending of the Habsburg Dynasty continue to echo today, in the form of the Anschluss of 1938, and the movement the Freedom Party of Austria that Jörg Haider led and that even today has significant minority support. Hungary also has a far-right party Jobbik, which wants to reverse the Treaty of Trianon (1920), and in the 2014 election secured a million votes to become Hungary’s third largest party. It is not surorising that the Hungarian government watches this development with concern.

I have also been watching a TV programme called Jewish Vienna on Axess TV.

There are many links to relevent web pages, especially on Wikipedia.