The Elderly, dealing with them, your relatives and others

[Tyrion Cheddar]

I hinted at this in an earlier response to a post by Pendragon, who told a story about his grandfather, but like most middle-aged people, I am now beginning to deal with elderly parents. Thank god they're alive and healthy, at 80, and are absolutely in their right minds, but nonetheless, the realities of being that age are starting to show, and the relationship between them and their offspring, as well as the behavior of me and my sibs towards them, has begun to change.

Although, compared to many other people my age, whose parents are in bad shape, I am as yet very lucky, I have already begun to experience frustration and even rage at times that is a new experience to me--although I remember vividly my parents going through it with their parents.

So, this thread is to solicit the experiences and thoughts of others here going through the same thing, and hopefully to serve as a support group of sorts, because at times I could really use it.

[bounty]

I came home a year and a half ago to take care of my mother who has Parkinson's disease, depression, anxiety, kidney failure, rheumatoid arthritis, crohn's, Addison's, heart and lung problems, osteoporosis and an ankle fracture that never healed right after surgery.

[Dreamwoven]

My elderly parents died some years ago now, and I increasingly have questions about their life that I didn't think to ask them. These questions will never be answered. I regret that now, for when they are gone those unasked questions are left hanging. Sometimes they're fairly trivial but other times they are not.

[North Star]

My elderly parents died some years ago now, and I increasingly have questions about their life that I didn't think to ask them. These questions will never be answered. I regret that now, for when they are gone those unasked questions are left hanging. Sometimes they're fairly trivial but other times they are not.

I know what you mean. I must make sure that mom will write down (and I mean write down legibly... :willy_nilly:) all my favourite recipes before it's too late. :biggrin5:

[Tyrion Cheddar]

I came home a year and a half ago to take care of my mother who has Parkinson's disease, depression, anxiety, kidney failure, rheumatoid arthritis, crohn's, Addison's, heart and lung problems, osteoporosis and an ankle fracture that never healed right after surgery.

Good grief. Like I said, I know I am, as yet, very lucky, with my parents being remarkably healthy so far. Is it just you and your Mom at home? And if I may ask, why would assisted living not be a better option for an elderly person in such a state?

[Dreamwoven]

Assisted Living doesn't ring any bells, the Wikipedia item on this is in a few languages but not Swedish - seems to be mainly about America?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_living. Is it the same as Retirement Home?

[Tyrion Cheddar]

Assisted Living doesn't ring any bells, the Wikipedia item on this is in a few languages but not Swedish - seems to be mainly about America?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_living. Is it the same as Retirement Home?

No, assisted living was developed mainly, I think, as a reaction to retirement homes, which are so dreadful. My sister-in-law's mother is in one now. It is a facility that allows you to retain control of your life to the extent you are physically able, and have privacy. You have your own living quarters, there is transportation, and of course every kind of medical care or assistance is right there. It is as close to being truly independent as old people are able to be.

[Dreamwoven]

Funnily enough, retirement homes in Sweden became notorious for setting higher and higher age limit for entry. Mid-90s is not uncommon today. Assisted living is probably like the in-between arrangement in Sweden where services are provided by private companies.

[bounty]

Good grief. Like I said, I know I am, as yet, very lucky, with my parents being remarkably healthy so far. Is it just you and your Mom at home? And if I may ask, why would assisted living not be a better option for an elderly person in such a state?

yes, im an only child, father dead, step-father long since gone.

maybe for some elderly people, but not for my mother---she wouldn't want to be there. at the same time, I can recall years ago thinking it would be a right thing, when the time came, for me to be doing what im presently doing. that doesn't necessarily mean im good at it, at least in all ways. in fact, I fail miserably frequently.

I suspect in part its like living with a child who has a terminal illness, you are constantly waiting for the ax to fall, and its stressful.

also, if you are fixer type, and there's nothing you can do, that's a challenge also.

but I think the two biggest challenges are philosophically interpersonal. one is, dealing with an irrationality that is akin to the person being a child despite her age, while at the same time, taking age into account.

the other is, a constant struggle of wills and being worlds apart when it comes to differences in expectations and care. the cat and dog nature of relationships between some people is exacerbated in the care taking situation. one position is "I don't want to" and its counterpart position is, "its a right and good thing to do."

you have to eat, im not hungry, that doesn't matter and can we please stop having this conversation over and over?

the stress, the friction from differences in ways of being, the repetition, etc, leads to quite a lot of my shortcomings manifesting.

theres a bit of an environmental challenge too, so to speak. the doctors, pharmacist, and hospital, are all a half hour away. that matters at least a little when there are 5 different doctors to be seen, 12 prescription medications to fill, and lab tests/procedures every so often.

the ultimate bottom line issue for me is, whose job is it to care for my mother, mine, or someone elses?

and then under that paradigm is the question of how much responsibility individuals have for taking care of themselves.

[Dreamwoven]

There is also the last stage of life, and keeping some dignity for those in it or being prepared for it. Hospices are increasingly popular. It is also called palliative care. My father spent his last weeks in one. I visited him there, and was impressed. It also works to unburden the closest family. We all have to take our leave of our loved ones at some point and this kind of care is one way of doing so.

[Tyrion Cheddar]

But is there no one here (be honest, please) who gets bleedin' fed up with elderly people, be they one's own relatives or in general? That's really what I was after when I started this thread. Don't be polite, or refrain from saying what we're told we shouldn't about old people, because it supposedly makes us mean folk. I meant for this to be a forum in which people could vent their frustrations and find understanding with others who share said frustrations, and thus feel better. Me, and no I'm not kidding, after prolonged consideration I believe that at some age, say eighty, we should take old people's right to vote away from them (please, I don't need a civics lecture or to be moralized at), and cancel their social security and medicare. The age can be debated by society and may be modified over time as people live longer and longer, although I absolutely believe those retarded and outdated systems like social security and medicare, which in some cases date back to the 1930s, should be phased out. Not looking for a political debate or a scolding, just stating my opinion. I have had it, had it, had it with the elderly and (this last part is a joke) believe they could best be used for biofuel.

[tailor STATELY]

Not here.

[Dreamwoven]

Tyrion started a thread on loneliness (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?83160-Loneliness-how-do-you-deal-with-it).

This relates also to the elderly. Women tend to live longer than men, so a mother when her husband dies is left to look after herself. It is certainly a problem when your parents become old and are unable to look after themselves. Do they become a burden on social security and the public sector? What if they have some capital or live in a house that they can no longer look after? Perhaps that house should become their fee for care, and go to the state or the private sector that looks after them rather than become a freebie for their children in the form of inherited property...

[YesNo]

But is there no one here (be honest, please) who gets bleedin' fed up with elderly people, be they one's own relatives or in general? That's really what I was after when I started this thread. Don't be polite, or refrain from saying what we're told we shouldn't about old people, because it supposedly makes us mean folk. I meant for this to be a forum in which people could vent their frustrations and find understanding with others who share said frustrations, and thus feel better. Me, and no I'm not kidding, after prolonged consideration I believe that at some age, say eighty, we should take old people's right to vote away from them (please, I don't need a civics lecture or to be moralized at), and cancel their social security and medicare. The age can be debated by society and may be modified over time as people live longer and longer, although I absolutely believe those retarded and outdated systems like social security and medicare, which in some cases date back to the 1930s, should be phased out. Not looking for a political debate or a scolding, just stating my opinion. I have had it, had it, had it with the elderly and (this last part is a joke) believe they could best be used for biofuel.

I'm not fed up with elderly people. I don't know how the system works because I am not politically motivated to study it, but I suspect those who are young but disabled also benefit from social security.

You could look at all of these people as providing jobs for caregivers the way children provide jobs for teachers. That might lead to another problem: medical people using the elderly as cash cows. I remember how my mother was medicated and treated with operations to the point that she was an invalid by the time she died. Of course, she trusted them, unlike my father who stayed healthy longer.

When I think of old people I am more fed up with their caregivers than I am with the old people themselves.

[Tyrion Cheddar]

I may have more to say in this thread later when I've had more time to process what y'all have written, but my initial impression is twofold. First, as I suspected, no one is willing to just come right out and unleash the anger and frustration that we all feel at times towards old people, almost as if you're afraid you're going to receive demerits or be condemned from on high--this is a common enough fear people have with regard so speaking honestly on certain subjects. Secondly, the perspectives some of you have expressed regarding aspects of the subject which I touched on are, well, trying to be diplomatic here, [I]odd[I]. I feel there is a lack of clarity of thought in certain areas and also a lack of up to date knowledge on everything from the economics of this subject to various imminent technologies which will affect all this profoundly. Meanwhile, I have to go pee. Something which I expect to be doing more and more as I grow old.

[Dreamwoven]

I loved my parents (they both died many years ago), and perhaps it is different if you have step-parents. Also I am old myself now, in my 70s and with a very wonky ticker. Being old I can better understand things from the perspective of old people.

[Tyrion Cheddar]

I love my parents more than words can say, and I hear the feeling in your words, just as I respect the fact that as an elder now yourself your perspective is different. I am in my early fifties, now entered into that moment in which the myriad awkward, frustrating and infuriating realities of seniors over 75 are brought home to me through daily dealings with my parents, always with the knowledge that this will only get worse.

In addition, America is nowadays like a sea of old people, our demographics being such that they dominate the population and the fastest growing demographic group in the U.S. is people in their 80s. This has dire consequences in an age in which continuous, dramatic change is brought about by technological evolution. Then of course there is the less serious but more steady annoyance of dealing with them when one is out and about, from roadways to stores.

Moreover, they dominate our country in the sense that they control the majority of votes, a real problem both in that they vote for things which are either irrelevant or are part of a world that only still exists in their heads, while simultaneously hindering or actively opposing the kind of big change brought about by technology, basic institutional change which we. As part of this, I personally don't agree with (from my point of view) throwing away trillions every year on people who will live only a few more years, instead of using that money to upgrade and update our country's infrastructure so that younger generations have opportunity.

[Dreamwoven]

Ah, now I understand better what your view is. America is different from Sweden, though I expect it will get more like America as time passes.

[YesNo]

Harry Dent has written a book about the demographic shift. I think his point is that we are headed for an economic crash. I favor more the Elliot Wave theorists who (I suspect) favor the view that the demographic shift and the coming economic crash are both the result of social mood. Ask yourself: why aren't people reproducing more or letting immigrants into the country? The answer should be "social mood" (which doesn't tell me much).

The problem is not old people. They are great for the economy. They keep pharmaceutical people busy trying to find another drug they can make medicare pay an arm and a leg for. They keep doctors busy prescribing expensive treatments that medicare pays for and the taxpayers have to finance. They keep nursing homes busy which allow investors to generate income buying health care REITs.

The problem is there are not enough young people to buy smartwatches and iJunk and new homes and new furniture and new clothes and go to the bars and get married with big weddings and who are willing to go up to the yinyang in debt because, let's face it, young people aren't as stupid as they used to be and there aren't as many of them.

[Danik 2016]

But is there no one here (be honest, please) who gets bleedin' fed up with elderly people, be they one's own relatives or in general? That's really what I was after when I started this thread. Don't be polite, or refrain from saying what we're told we shouldn't about old people, because it supposedly makes us mean folk. I meant for this to be a forum in which people could vent their frustrations and find understanding with others who share said frustrations, and thus feel better. Me, and no I'm not kidding, after prolonged consideration I believe that at some age, say eighty, we should take old people's right to vote away from them (please, I don't need a civics lecture or to be moralized at), and cancel their social security and medicare. The age can be debated by society and may be modified over time as people live longer and longer, although I absolutely believe those retarded and outdated systems like social security and medicare, which in some cases date back to the 1930s, should be phased out. Not looking for a political debate or a scolding, just stating my opinion. I have had it, had it, had it with the elderly and (this last part is a joke) believe they could best be used for biofuel.
I am 62 so I have to consider myself elderly and maybe halfway to your kindly proposed biofuel future.
The problem in my opinion is not that the older generations live longer and at some time become dependent, but that the younger ones have not been prepared to cope with it. I didn´t read the texts cited by Y/N but I´m interested in news and politics and there seems to be worldwide waves of anger and hatred that are increasing every day. In a time were religious and ethical principles are disappearing altogether and absolutely nobody and nothing is held sacred any more, the forecasting is not favorable. Without sound values and limits we are turning swiftly into savages again(and certainly not Rosseau`s “good savages”) with the important difference that we now preside over tons of highly destructive technology. I just tremble to think what is going to become to those who are presently around forty or fifty when they reach the biofuel stage. It is not impossible that in twenty years you will remember wistfully the milder America of today.
It might interest you to know that some countries seem to agree with you: in Greece they are shortening again the already halved rent, which drove several oldies to suicide; in two Brazilian states the often very modest rent (200/300 dollars) was divided in installments and even the installments were not paid. Without rent the people can buy neither food nor their medicines… But according to you this would be quite ok.
Now, for the more personal part of it. I think it doesn´t so much matter how we feel about people that are dependent on us, elderly or not, but how we deal with the issue. Sometimes, having to deal with a situation of dependence might be a blessing in disguise for those of us, who were always more cared for than had to care for someone else. Not being able to care for someone or tolerate a situation of some dependence, makes us shun relationships, at least those which demand some sacrifices. Some posts of yours make me think, that that may be your case. You seem to be a man of good health, social abilities and enough money to lead a good life but you seem to shun relationships as the devil shuns the cross, probably because you think them too cumbersome. If that´s true I would even consider looking for professional help to be better able to cope with this situation. You still have a good time to go, before you get really old. But after fifty my lad, the clock starts to tick faster.
I won´t conjure the picture of a septuagenarian or octogenarian TC desperately making love to the least ugly of his caretakers because there is no other woman around and giving mighty stress to all the rest (who only don´t throw him down the winder, wheelchair and all, because he makes them laugh too), because I think he is still in time to mend himself.

[Dreamwoven]

This sums up the situation in Sweden too. 200 years of armed neutrality may be brought to an end by the younger generation. Its in the air, making this the Cold War era which unleashes armageddon.

[Danik 2016]

To it seems to be a worlwide trend. And that in Sweden, a country universally known as peacefull and developed in his human rights...Sometimes I'm glad, I'm not so young anymore, Dreamwoven.

[YesNo]

I expect social mood to become very negative. I hope I don't make it worse.

[Danik 2016]

Certainly not! We are badly in want of more humanity and gentleness. Some Yes/Nos in the "real" world wouldn´t be so bad I think! ;)

[YesNo]

Thanks, Danik. You seem calm as well.

We haven't yet seen global markets crash hard at least in the US. I recall your mentioning of suicides in Brazil.

[Danik 2016]

I'm not a calm person, Yes/No. What I´m trying to learn is how to give a forum discussion a positive direction even when I am angry. I think you must he learned that already because I see you reacting kindly even to disagreable comments.
As for the suicides I mentioned, I meant the Greek elderly, years ago, I don´t exactly when, when their rents where cut in half. If I find an article about it, I´ll post it here.
Brazilian don´t comit suicide easily. One of our great qualities is our capacity to adapt to changes, although personally I can´t include myself in that.

[YesNo]

Yes. I agree with you about suicide. There are better things to do.

I suppose one could get angry with comments in a thread but it probably doesn't help. I find what people say interesting. Usually it is not what I expect. Then I get an opportunity to respond. That makes me forget any anger.

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, Yes/No.
It's a good way to look at it, I think: keeping the interesting part and not minding the rest.