What Attracts You First? Poll #1 for Women Only

[Calidore]

Okay, ladies, here's your poll. Items were collected from this thread:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69660

Physical attributes make up the top half, and intangibles are the second half. Pick the ones that make your eyes wander and heart flutter (as opposed to "well, that's nice"), and be truthful--honest results mean a more honest and interesting discussion in the thread. And if you don't see what you like here, you shoulda spoken up in the thread.

And of course, thanks to Cacian for starting the thread in the first place, without whom etc.

Enjoy, and discuss!

[JuniperWoolf]

Just spitballing, imo, I think this thread should be "what attracts you to a man" and the other should be "what attracts you to a woman," since there are quite a few male litnetters who are attracted to males, and quite a few female litnetters who are attracted to females. The way it is now, we'll get a bunch of answers on this thread for what a woman likes in either a male or a female or both, and a bunch in the other for what a man likes in either a male or a female or both. That's obviously confusing, because it's like one poll asking you to list all of the adjectives that describe what you love about strawberry shortcake and what you love about steak dinner, all at once.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I don't really see why there have to be two different polls, really. I think both have the same options. Maybe just make one and have the voting public, so we can see the who voted what, and hence the potential difference in male/female viewpoint. Also spitballing. :)

[cacian]

Hey great idea and what a great poll Calidore!!! loads to think about haha... iI shall be voting in the men section since I am attracted to men only.
Presumably this one is for the ladies to vote !!!
If so I am not getting the 'breast' bit do you mean chest LOL:p

[tonywalt]

I am eager to see if any women are attracted to Quiet Petite guys - that's one for the books.

[Scheherazade]

Thank you very much for taking the time to combing through all the replies to combine this list and setting up the polls, Calidore. :)

I think it is a great idea to have separate polls for men and women. It is not about whom you are attracted to but who you are. If you are a woman, regardless of the gender of the person(s) you are attracted to, just tick all the options that fits you.

Also, having identities hidden encourages honesty so I think it is a good call.

[Emil Miller]

I am eager to see if any women are attracted to Quiet Petite guys - that's one for the books.

Well some women are or is it the reported £2.5 billion he is reputed to be worth?

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3623/imagescagjs0s6.jpg

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I'll be interested to see if any women are attracted to mens' breasts.

[mona amon]

I hardly knew what to choose, and ended up clicking a lot of boxes, including build, height, body, face, voice, kindness, humour, innocence, chemistry etc. :p

[Buh4Bee]

Already answered this, but will do it again, since it is a new thread and the discussion is taking place here. Humor, kindness, scent, easygoing. Before I was married, I seldom cared what the guy looked like, I just wanted to be treated well. Ugly didn't bother me, jerks did. LOL!

[Pensive]

Kindness, innocence, honesty and simplicity
Modesty too.

However for some reason I have always found the only people who are attracted to me happen to be real jerks who do not possess any of the attributes mentioned above. Maybe I am just not good enough for the good guys out there! :( :p (but well that's another topic for discussion).

[LadyLuck]

Kindness and tolerance for each others quirks are some of the most important things. Also similar interests, humor and likely a ton of other things. However, kindness is the most important thing to me. That is a lesson that I've learned very well in the most difficult fashion possible. One that isn't on the list, and is equally important is common life goals.

[Helga]

Kindness and tolerance for each others quirks are some of the most important things. Also similar interests, humor and likely a ton of other things. However, kindness is the most important thing to me. That is a lesson that I've learned very well in the most difficult fashion possible. One that isn't on the list, and is equally important is common life goals.

Oh yes I definitively agree that common goals are very very important. That is what I learned in the past, it's something you can't look past

[Varenne Rodin]

Fun poll. Humor is kicking ***. Am I allowed to say ***?

[Varenne Rodin]

Nope. Filtered. :-D

[tonywalt]

I'm a little disappointed that none of you girls are attracted to "crazy" with an "aura of untouchability" - this obviously sidelines me:incazzato:

I also cook and juggle- well, think about it.

[Darcy88]

How is it possible to answer such a poll? A woman is such a beautifully complex creation. I like hair and eyes and face. A woman can be superficially lacking in every other area but if she has nice eyes and hair I can fall hard for her.

[Delta40]

I like a guy with a good sense of humour and intelligence. Being on the same page so I don't have to behave like I'm somebody else in order to tick his box makes all the difference in the world. My terms.

I hate guys that objectify me. It isn't my body that I care about so much as who I am. If a guy makes comments on my physical attributes, it won't buy him any credit at all.

When I know he really cares for me, anything he says about my body is wonderful!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

You know, there probably should be an option to vote for the size of a certain part of the male body.

[Darcy88]

My ideal woman is like one of the women of ancient Sparta. One who is intelligent and can kick ***. Looks are secondary to chemistry and dependability.

[Alexander III]

My ideal woman is like one of the women of ancient Sparta. One who is intelligent and can kick ***. Looks are secondary to chemistry and dependability.

I may be making a mistake here but weren't the women of ancient sparta perceived to be worth little more than cattle. Is that not why the love between two men was perceived as superior and truer in sparta, because it was a love between equals, and women were ignorant and inferior and essentially baby making tools.

I mean we are talking about Sparta, the land were if a man could physically overpower and woman and have his way with her, it was considered that she legally became his. Any society were rape precludes marriage does not seem to value women to highly. But then again, one does not simply create the finest fighting force the world has ever seen, by giving women importance in society.

Oh and Darcy, this is the poll for lit net women, the guy one is a few threads down.

[Darcy88]

No Alex, just no. The women of ancient Sparta were the most powerful women in Ancient Greece. A Spartan woman could command a Spartan man. In Athens a woman was like a thing owned, not in Sparta. In Sparta there was still a strong element of male dominance, but Spartan women were definitely the most free women in Ancient Greece. Read your history. I am not a professor. I come here to debate, not to educate.

[Darcy88]

Just what I needed. A pompous *** going all pompous on me. Cheers Alex. I raise my glass to you.

[Emil Miller]

You know, there probably should be an option to vote for the size of a certain part of the male body.

Did you know that in China the size of a man's ears is highly prized ?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Christ what a poll, but here's me hoping for 'enjoys alcohol'...:)

Edit: anyway I don't believe it. Women always say things like 'humour', 'nice eyes' or 'cute smile', but then go for the office/jerk/bad boy/flashy shirt/heavy bank account types. Trust me, in this I am right, I've seen it all before too many times.

[Alexander III]

Edit: anyway I don't believe it. Women always say things like 'humour', 'nice eyes' or 'cute smile', but then go for the office/jerk/bad boy/flashy shirt/heavy bank account types. Trust me, in this I am right, I've seen it all before too many times.

I wanted to say the same thing, the highest rated things on here are kindness and humor, and that what women always will say, but it simply isn't true. Because lets face it, kindness and humor get dull quick.

[Delta40]

The guy I like has the best sense of humour and the craziest laugh going! Perhaps its something to do with age? Maybe you guys are pouting because the gal you wanted didn't pick you!

[LitNetIsGreat]

The guy I like has the best sense of humour and the craziest laugh going! Perhaps its something to do with age? Maybe you guys are pouting because the gal you wanted didn't pick you!

Yeah, yeah you woman are conning yourself with this nonsense, 'blue eyes' as well is it? No, no, see it before like an old record. Woman might laugh along with the fun guy, but they always go home with the dickhead.

(I'm not bitter as I'm married and all that, I go fishing anyway, I'm just not buying all this nonsense. I don't buy it for a second.)

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Did you know that in China the size of a man's ears is highly prized ?
Like bigger? I'd still be **** out of luck.

Yeah, yeah you woman are conning yourself with this nonsense, 'blue eyes' as well is it? No, no, see it before like an old record. Woman might laugh along with the fun guy, but they always go home with the dickhead.

(I'm not bitter as I'm married and all that, I go fishing anyway, I'm just not buying all this nonsense. I don't buy it for a second.)
So. ****ing. True.

[stlukesguild]

Hmmm... this thread states, "for women only" yet it seems almost all the posts are by men.:shocked::goof:

[Buh4Bee]

I like a sense of humor, kindness and a big {edit}. Cheers!

[stlukesguild]

Yeah, yeah you woman are conning yourself with this nonsense, 'blue eyes' as well is it? No, no, see it before like an old record. Woman might laugh along with the fun guy, but they always go home with the dickhead.

Especially if the dickhead has a nicely padded bank account.:ladysman:


By the way... what's wrong with blue eyes.

I like a sense of humor, kindness and a big {edit}. Cheers!

:eek2::hand::smilielol5:

[Delta40]

Yeah, yeah you woman are conning yourself with this nonsense, 'blue eyes' as well is it? No, no, see it before like an old record. Woman might laugh along with the fun guy, but they always go home with the dickhead.

(I'm not bitter as I'm married and all that, I go fishing anyway, I'm just not buying all this nonsense. I don't buy it for a second.)

I didn't even vote in the poll so I can't see the results. {EDIT}
But I do like how more men are posting on this thread and seem to know what women want than women themselves. I guess the next step is to offer this as proof that women are soooooo complicated :ladysman:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I like a sense of humor, kindness and a big {edit}. Cheers!

Finally, an honest answer.

[Alexander III]

But I do like how more men are posting on this thread and seem to know what women want than women themselves. I guess the next step is to offer this as proof that women are soooooo complicated :ladysman:

Because men are a lot less hypocritical than women. Both sexes are driven by primeval passion and want to posses the Alpha male/Female. Men admit this, we want that which is beautiful and superior, not kind or nice or innocent, beautiful and confident. And women are the same way.

Let we me give an example which I think every guys here will relate too.

Scenario 1) You don't like a gril and do not give any particular fig about her. You spend the evening making sarcastic remarks, often about her, and behaving with your guys friends as you normally do as if there were no women(a barbarian). End of night. The girl has somehow, against all odds, managed to fall in love with you...

Scenario 2) For whatever reason there is a girl you actually like. The fact that your interest in not sexual buy beyond that makes you realize that if you mess up there are not others to be had, for she is the only she. This makes you shy and kind and funny in the nice way, you behave like a perfect gentleman in her presence. There is not hint of elfin irony or sarcasm about you. Unlike scenario one you do not think and act as if you are vastly superior to this woman, you treat her like your equal, you treat her like your superior.

This girl will never like you.


Men of all ages, do my scenarios speck more truthfully about the wants of women than the poll?

[Emil Miller]

[By the way... what's wrong with blue eyes.


Blue eyes are often the clincher.

[JuniperWoolf]

*double post*

[JuniperWoolf]

But I do like how more men are posting on this thread and seem to know what women want than women themselves. I guess the next step is to offer this as proof that women are soooooo complicated :ladysman:

Haha, no kidding. I wonder, this being a thread on first impressions, does hypothetical woman-bait walk around with his bank statement stapled to his forehead?




Men of all ages, do my scenarios speck more truthfully about the wants of women than the poll?

I'm attracted to contentious people, but then I'm contentious myself so that makes sense. I don't have to worry about hurting their feelings and I have more in common with them. I have someone to bounce off of so to speak. I hear most other women insist that they don't like contentiousness, and I can't see inside their heads, so I wouldn't presume to tell them what they "actually think." I couldn't call Pensive, LadyLuck, Buh4Bee, MonaAmon or Helga liars (those who specified that they like "kindness"). They're too sweet and nice, it'd be like stomping on a kitten (except Buh4Bee, I bet that lady can handle her own). And yet, before the second page is over their thread is hijacked by men telling them "what they really think" and you and Neely call them hypocrites and liars without the slightest hesitation. *sigh* Shameless. Is that what a "dickhead" is?

Anyway, it makes sense for women to like men with more edged personalities (if indeed they do). I don't think this "dominant male" really has anything to do with it, to be a leader you have to be a bit more subtle, you need something besides pure aggression to lead. I've never liked leader types. I doubt they're popular with the general female populace either, no one likes Scott Summers, it's all about Gambit. I don't think it has so much to do with "dominating" other men as it does "strength." If someone is able to communicate honestly without ridgidly adhering to the socially-prescribed rules of behavior, it means they're strong enough that they don't have to stand on ceremony. Loners are popular too, because it takes strength to be alone, whereas "leaders" need followers.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Oh woman aren't liars or hypocrites necessarily, they are just completely self-deluded, when it comes to this issue at least. They might think they like the humour, nice smile and eyes in a man (whatever nonsense is said) but the reality is quite different. I have seen it too many times over and over again and others have too apparently. So I'm not buying any of that one bit sorry.

Many women are also potty about men in uniform. Quite what this is about I haven't a clue? Just spread a rumour that there's a few firemen in the building and watch 80% of the women around fall to their knees and drool pathetically, it's quite baffling.

[JuniperWoolf]

Oh woman aren't liars or hypocrites necessarily, they are just completely self-deluded.

Haha, ahh, well that's much less offensive to them, I'm sure.


Many women are also potty about men in uniform. Quite what this is about I haven't a clue?

Because they're strong, masculine and capable, obviously. Also, most places that require a uniform mean you need physical strength, which means nice tight bodies. The firemen in my town are volunteers, and most of them are highschool teachers or my friends' potbellied fathers, so I'm literally repulsed by the idea of firemen in an erotic setting, but I LOVE soldiers. Mmm, the hair, the combats, the dust, the boots and the running and crawling under wires on their knees and elbows... :drool5:

[Alexander III]

need[/I] followers.


So you are speaking in a manner which suggest you do not agree with what I say, yet the substance of your post agrees with everything I said.

[stlukesguild]

I LOVE soldiers. Mmm, the hair, the combats, the dust, the boots and the running and crawling under wires on their knees and elbows... :drool5:

Canada has soldiers?:shocked::D

[Emil Miller]

Many women are also potty about men in uniform. Quite what this is about I haven't a clue?

This is true but it cuts both ways. Long ago when I worked for the MoD police as a civilian I was pretty much gone on a couple of the female officers and although their personalities were a strong pull, their uniforms were a great turn on.
Although it doesn't suit every woman, a trim figure in a well-cut uniform is more than a little erotic. Here's what I mean:

http://youtu.be/S4DZQhfrl5Y

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I LOVE soldiers. Mmm, the hair, the combats, the dust, the boots and the running and crawling under wires on their knees and elbows... :drool5:

Canada has soldiers?:shocked::D

The most polite soldiers in the world. They ask the bad guy if it's okay to shoot, then sincerely apologize afterwards.

This is true but it cuts both ways. Long ago when I worked for the MoD police as a civilian I was pretty much gone on a couple of the female officers and although their personalities were a strong pull, their uniforms were a great turn on.
Although it doesn't suit every woman, a trim figure in a well-cut uniform is more than a little erotic. Here's what I mean:

http://youtu.be/S4DZQhfrl5Y

Is there a particular reason you have it on for Asian women, Emil?

[Emil Miller]

Is there a particular reason you have it on for Asian women, Emil?

There are in fact a number of reasons. They are usually slim with small features and I have a thing about high cheek bones and dark eyes, they also have a lovely textured skin and small hands as well as very black hair which, when worn long, is great for running one's fingers through. The only downside is that they don't usually drink, although I have met exceptions among the Japanese. In general I would say that oriental women are more feminine than their western counterparts.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Good reasons.

[Delta40]

Many women/girls are potty about polygamy and arranged marriages too.....

[Emil Miller]

Many women/girls are potty about polygamy and arranged marriages too.....

Could you elaborate on this idea?

[tonywalt]

Many women/girls are potty about polygamy and arranged marriages too.....

Are you?

The girls I've know are not so happy about polygamy, but I know they were very pleased with monogamy-and make sure I always know it.

It sounds like when a feminist says something they would like to be true (but know isn't true and certainly is not true for them).

[papayahed]

Mod Note

Please Remember this is an all age forum

All off color post will be deleted without further warning.

[papayahed]

Why do guys always have to tell us what we like. Do they think we don't know? Peraps it's their own bruised egos looking for excuses?

[Buh4Bee]

OK. Thanks for the reminder!!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Why do guys always have to tell us what we like. Do they think we don't know? Peraps it's their own bruised egos looking for excuses?

Are you suggesting that the proportion of women who get in relationships with a-holes isn't unreasonable?

[papayahed]

Are you suggesting that the proportion of women who get in relationships with a-holes isn't unreasonable?


I'm suggesting that it's probably around the same proportion as guys who get in relationships with crazy women. Yet you don't see the women on this forum bellyaching every time this subject comes up.

To say that women only go after jerks with big wallets is probably a lot easier on the ego than to acknowledge that you ( not you specifically Mutatis, but the general male) might not be the ladies man you think you are.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think that's the point. We all know we aren't ladies' men (except Alex, most like), because "ladies' men" are jerks.

[papayahed]

I think that's the point. We all know we aren't ladies' men (except Alex, most like), because "ladies' men" are jerks.


Hahahahahaaha, ok go with that.

I'm amazed at the low opinion the male posters on this website have of women.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I just observe the world around me.

And ladies' men are jerks. You know those classes now on how to pick up women? You know what they tell you? Be a jerk to women. Make snide remarks, act like you're better than everyone else, etc etc. Apperently it works. One of me best friends acts this way, and women pretty much offer themselves to him. I have another friend who's overweight and kind of dorky looking, but he's the same way, and he's had so much strange it isn't funny.

Oh, and there's another reason we know we're not ladies' men. We don't get many ladies.

If its any consolidation, I have an equally low opinion of men, if not lower.

[stlukesguild]

Long ago when I worked for the MoD police as a civilian I was pretty much gone on a couple of the female officers and although their personalities were a strong pull, their uniforms were a great turn on.
Although it doesn't suit every woman, a trim figure in a well-cut uniform is more than a little erotic. Here's what I mean:

Emil's gotta end his fixation with those little Chinese girls that he can boss around. He needs a woman more along these lines... and surely the "uniform" is one hell of a turn on.:ladysman:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_sybil_danning_werewolf_women_of_the_ss_2_8bQKwX Usized.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=sybil_danning_werewolf_women_of_the_ss_2_8 bQKwXUsized.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Nazi-Amazon-Warrior-Whip.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=Nazi-Amazon-Warrior-Whip.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_nazi_girl.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=nazi_girl.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_hessa-nazi-woman.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=hessa-nazi-woman.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_all-man-1962-05-may-nazi-woman-whipping-a-prisoner-8x6.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=all-man-1962-05-may-nazi-woman-whipping-a-prisoner-8x6.jpg)

[Babyguile]

This thread is not showing the male member's of this forum in a good light, at all.

[OrphanPip]

If one wants to go empirical, the data on couples suggests that we're most likely to partner up with people of similar IQ, socio-economic status, and cultural history. So, it's very likely that humour and similar interests are a major determining factor. Then there are also a number of studies that suggest humour plays a major role in human sexual selection. I don't know about other people, but I firmly agree that someone becomes a lot more attractive as a potential sexual partner if they are funny, even for one night stands.

And I'm enough jerk to do for two, so I agree kindness is a plus. So, I'll agree with Buh4Bee, it's about humour, kindness and a big....

[JuniperWoolf]

So you are speaking in a manner which suggest you do not agree with what I say, yet the substance of your post agrees with everything I said.

Well no, see, it's the fact that you're saying "all women are like this and if they aren't then they're liars" that I disagree with. Even if there is a general tendancy for the female population to lbe sexually attracted to one kind of person (and that's general tendancy, the first word there is very important), it's impossible for ALL of them to, and it's also impossible to see inside any one person's head to tell them what they're thinking. That's beyond presumptuous, it's bordering on mystical. Are you a mind reader?


The most polite soldiers in the world. They ask the bad guy if it's okay to shoot, then sincerely apologize afterwards.


Haha, we even wear bright red berets to announce our coming so the enemy doesn't get rudely surprised.


Are you suggesting that the proportion of women who get in relationships with a-holes isn't unreasonable?

"Relationships" is a bit far, in my experience women don't get into "relationships" with them (this is an "all ages forum," but I think you know what women do with them). I don't have numbers in front of me, but most "boyfriends" that I know are indeed "nice." *edit* Oh yeah, Pip's right, I remember now that people tend to choose mates (meaning long-term) who are similar to themselves. I'll photocopy the page and post it here if the "women want relationships with jerks" malarky doesn't die.


I'm suggesting that it's probably around the same proportion as guys who get in relationships with crazy women. Yet you don't see the women on this forum bellyaching every time this subject comes up.

This forum is particularly bad, I've never heard anyone in real life do the whole "grr, women just want our walets!" tirade. Is this 2012, or 1952? Next they'll be saying "grr, all black people want is watermelon, and Asians want to do all our math!"

[Scheherazade]

What I would like to know is why there are hardly any posts in the Male version of this thread.

[Babyguile]

What I would like to know is why there are hardly any posts in the Male version of this thread.

Because, even on an internet forum, men feel self-conscious about admitting that they look for qualities in women other than big breasts and a hot figure. I think young men in particular find it very hard to have an adult discussion with eachother about what they look for in a partner.

It's all very immature.

[JuniperWoolf]

Because, even on an internet forum, men feel self-conscious about admitting that they look for qualities in women other than big breasts and a hot figure. I think young men in particular find it very hard to have an adult discussion with eachother about what they look for in a partner.

It's all very immature.

See, now you're stereotyping and making generalizations about men. That's just as bad, and of course will only cause people to retaliate or to call you a hypocrite, because it's obvious that you're doing the same thing to the group to which they're a part that you dislike them doing to the group to which you're a part.

[PoeticPassions]

I actually don't mind that the men on this forum have called out women on the issue of ending up with jerks (or go for men with money.. but some men go for women with money too, I've seen it a lot as well, particularly in my culture where there is a mix of both)... I will say, however, that out of my own experience and observations, it is not like women consciously say 'well, hey, I want some total a**hole for a boyfriend,' but what ends up happening is that the 'bad boys' maybe are more confident and abrasive and forward than the 'good guys,' and they end up intriguing a woman more as she is actually attracted to the excitement or unpredictability... But honestly, few women would say that they would prefer to end up with a jerk...

I would also venture to say that men tend to place more importance on physical attributes than women. I know that there have been studies on the role of humor and sexual attraction, and how humor is particularly attractive to women.

As for myself, the number one thing is the intangible chemistry... I also think scent is really important. The way a man smells matters greatly. I also do look for build and facial features... as I like lighter eyes, darker hair, a great smile. But if a man is confident, witty, and can hold a conversation, he becomes much more attractive (I have in the past found many different types of men attractive based more on personality... skinny, tall, shorter, chubbier, super athletic, hispanic, black, white, blonde, native american, etc etc.) Looks matter, but they're not the be all end all. They may initially attract, but they won't make something last.

[Dark Star]

Because, even on an internet forum, men feel self-conscious about admitting that they look for qualities in women other than big breasts and a hot figure. I think young men in particular find it very hard to have an adult discussion with eachother about what they look for in a partner.

It's all very immature.

Just throwing this out there...

My experience on 'mixed' forums (ones with a decent men to women ratio) is the opposite. Men I've met on forums (myself included) tend to feel uncomfortable discussing the physical attributes they find attractive because they're afraid of offending the women on the forum.


This forum is particularly bad, I've never heard anyone in real life do the whole "grr, women just want our walets!" tirade. Is this 2012, or 1952?

I agree largely with the sentiment behind this (women can have their own careers and thus don't need to bag a man for support), but I've actually heard 'they just want our wallets!' more often in real life than I have online. I suspect that this is because I live in a very 'southern' area (culturally) where it's not uncommon for women to become housewives by choice. I've known several men older men who wanted their wife to work but decided that they had to go along with her decision not to because it's a 'man's duty' to provide for his wife/family. This leads to some very embittered men several years down the road.

[Emil Miller]

Emil's gotta end his fixation with those little Chinese girls that he can boss around. He needs a woman more along these lines... and surely the "uniform" is one hell of a turn on.:ladysman:

Well I would never boss them around, in any case they are naturally compliant. :biggrin5:
As for the Fräuleins I have been fortunate to have had some good times with them as well although they were more sedately attired than the popular male fantasy of them in Nazi uniform.
One of the police women I mentioned was involved in a confrontation with demonstrators in which she was hit by a stone. She told me that she had a large bruise on her thigh, but when I offered to kiss it better she said that if I carried on like that I might end up in handcuffs. Unfortunately she was only joking.

[JuniperWoolf]

Well I would never boss them around, in any case they are naturally compliant. :biggrin5:

Are they really? The Asian women that I know would present the following rebuttal:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_lovex.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=lovex.jpg)

Your whole "yes, I just want a pretty little compliant geisha to wash my feet!" sentiment is a huge cliche, of comedic proportions. I've studied Japan quite a bit and I speak to Japanese people frequently (my best friend Sara was first-gen, I practically lived at her house until I was fourteen, and Japanese has always been my language and history option), and this is one of their main irritating cultural sterotypes - like how Canadians all live in igloos, British people have bad teeth, and Americans live on hamburgers. Apparently you're thinking matches pre-WWII Japan. You'd do well in Thailand though, there are Asian women there to cater to any fantasy.

I also work with four Philipinos in the office and six work in the next building, and trust me, that is in no way a culture which breeds docility. There's this one chick, her name is (I swear on my life) Muffin, and she's dropped hints that she's killed a guy.

[Emil Miller]

Are they really? The Asian women that I know would present the following rebuttal:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/th_lovex.jpg (http://s426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/cellar_door17/?action=view&current=lovex.jpg)

Your whole "yes, I just want a pretty little compliant geisha to wash my feet!" sentiment is a huge cliche, of comedic proportions. I've studied Japan quite a bit and I speak to Japanese people frequently (my best friend Sara was first-gen, I practically lived at her house until I was fourteen, and Japanese has always been my language and history option), and this is one of their main irritating cultural sterotypes - like how Canadians all live in igloos, British people have bad teeth, and Americans live on hamburgers. Apparently you're thinking matches pre-WWII Japan. You'd do well in Thailand though, there are Asian women there to cater to any fantasy, no matter how dated.

I also work with four Philipinos in the office and six work in the next building, and trust me, that is in no way a culture which breeds docility.

You obviously missed the emoticon.

[JuniperWoolf]

You obviously missed the emoticon.

Oh, you were being sarcastic? Sorry, that's always a problem online. This: :D - isn't the sarcasm emoticon, it's the satisfaction emoticon. This one is supposed to be: :p - but on litnet the smile is too wide so it looks more like a squee emoticon. So far I've found that footnotes work best, although apparently there's a font.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I guess it's odd for women to hear what guys really think.

This thread is not showing the male member's of this forum in a good light, at all.


Because, even on an internet forum, men feel self-conscious about admitting that they look for qualities in women other than big breasts and a hot figure. I think young men in particular find it very hard to have an adult discussion with eachother about what they look for in a partner.

It's all very immature.

Are you a man or a woman, Babyguile? I'm pretty sure you've claimed you're a woman, but in the gender poll you voted male.

[JuniperWoolf]

I guess it's odd for women to hear what guys really think.

Personally, I can't hear peoples' thoughts in general.

[stlukesguild]

Because, even on an internet forum, men feel self-conscious about admitting that they look for qualities in women other than big breasts and a hot figure. I think young men in particular find it very hard to have an adult discussion with eachother about what they look for in a partner.

It's all very immature.

The original question asked "What attracts you to another person FIRST?" In other words... "What initially grabs your attention?" I'll assume that most men look for qualities beyond the visual, physical attributes, but I also suspect that qualities such as "nice personality", "great sense of humor", "5 star cook", "likes animals", etc... are not something that can be immediately discerned... nor something that first catches the eye. It would seem to me that being honest as opposed to putting on a facade and pretending to be Mr. Sensitive is the exact opposite of "immature".

Hell, I'll admit that my wife's boobs were what first seriously grabbed my attention... and she'll say the same thing. She'll also admit that she fully made use of these attributes that she was blessed with wearing revealing, low-cut tops, etc... I doubt, however, that we would have lasted together as long as we have if that was the only attraction.

[Babyguile]

Because, even on an internet forum, men feel self-conscious about admitting that they look for qualities in women other than big breasts and a hot figure. I think young men in particular find it very hard to have an adult discussion with eachother about what they look for in a partner.

It's all very immature.

The original question asked "What attracts you to another person FIRST?" In other words... "What initially grabs your attention?" I'll assume that most men look for qualities beyond the visual, physical attributes, but I also suspect that qualities such as "nice personality", "great sense of humor", "5 star cook", "likes animals", etc... are not something that can be immediately discerned... nor something that first catches the eye. It would seem to me that being honest as opposed to putting on a facade and pretending to be Mr. Sensitive is the exact opposite of "immature".

Hell, I'll admit that my wife's boobs were what first seriously grabbed my attention... and she'll say the same thing. She'll also admit that she fully made use of these attributes that she was blessed with wearing revealing, low-cut tops, etc... I doubt, however, that we would have lasted together as long as we have if that was the only attraction.

Very well, but the discussion did evolve to something more general with everyone quoting eachother.


I guess it's odd for women to hear what guys really think.




Are you a man or a woman, Babyguile? I'm pretty sure you've claimed you're a woman, but in the gender poll you voted male.

I think people have just assumed that I was either one or the other.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

So, which are you?

[Babyguile]

So, which are you?

I think fellow posters would appreciate you not being so adament about taking this thread off its topic. I don't feel obliged to satisfy your curiosity.

[Emil Miller]

Oh, you were being sarcastic? Sorry, that's always a problem online. This: :D - isn't the sarcasm emoticon, it's the satisfaction emoticon.

The reply was addressed to stlukes. I think he's smart enough to have got the message.

[QUOTE=stlukesguild;1153431
Hell, I'll admit that my wife's boobs were what first seriously grabbed my attention... [/QUOTE]

There's something more than a little Freudian about the words 'boobs' and 'grabbed' in the same sentence.

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Posts containing personal and/or inflammatory comments will be removed without further notice.

~

[qimissung]

I voted, basically for the same qualities that I suggested-humor, kindness, eyes. I added face and body and tolereant of quirks. I wasn't sure about that last one, mainly because you wouldn't really know about that until you'd actually gotten to know them.

I would like to say thank you to jun and poeticpassions for clarifying issues in a tolerant and intelligent way. As for you guys, really? Are you 14? Wading through these comments has been somewhat disappointing. Do any of you even like women?

[Emil Miller]

Do any of you even like women?

I think there is plenty of evidence among these posts to show that at least some of the male response has been in women's favour. Some like their women hot in the hay:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6985/stellastevens01.jpg

And some like their women prim and proper:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1847/7394mar12012edwrdnskrtp.jpg

Either way, where women are concerned there's something for every man.

[Babyguile]

Is this a joke? :cryin:

[papayahed]

Either way, where women are concerned there's something for every man.



aww shucks that's good to hear. We were worried.

[Delta40]

That is good to hear. Can I have A guy, 6ft, brown eyes, good sense of humour, intelligent WITH A BIG ****??? Oh and extra fries please....

[Alexander III]

Do any of you even like women?

I have always suspected that my fixation with breasts, might be an indication that deep down I truly am gay; and that my conscious self focuses so highly on breasts purely to ensure that my eyes are always distracted and may never catch sight of a male penis, because once they see it, the ego buried within the depths of the un-conscious shall become infatuated and desirous to such a degree that suppressing my true desire shall become impossible. Well played super-ego. Well played indeed. Never letting me truly discover my homosexual tendencies by ensuring that I am at all times distracted by breasts...well played indeed brain.

[Emil Miller]

That is good to hear. Can I have A guy, 6ft, brown eyes, good sense of humour, intelligent WITH A BIG ****??? Oh and extra fries please....

I'm sure there are a number of male LitNet contributors who would fit the bill but I'm afraid that you will have to count me out.

[Alexander III]

Also

The 3 highest rated attributes on the men's poll are:

1) face 2) Breasts 3)Build

Whilst on the woman's poll they are:

1) Humor 2)Intelligence 3) Kindness



As Don Quixote said "A hypocrite preaching virtue does more harm than any common sinner"

[Calidore]

My initial reaction to reading over this thread is that when discussing the poll results people should maybe be asking more questions and making fewer statements.

Meantime, I would like to do my part to dispel the generalization of the shallow, physical-attribute-obsessed man. Unfortunately, I've realized that the first thing I checked out when looking at the women's poll results was whether any women voted for boobs (One did! Yes!).

So before I go back into my cave, I'd like to ask this question: Do women who like breasts like breasts in the same way that men who like breasts like breasts?

[Emil Miller]

My initial reaction to reading over this thread is that when discussing the poll results people should maybe be asking more questions and making fewer statements.

Meantime, I would like to do my part to dispel the generalization of the shallow, physical-attribute-obsessed man. Unfortunately, I've realized that the first thing I checked out when looking at the women's poll results was whether any women voted for boobs (One did! Yes!).

So before I go back into my cave, I'd like to ask this question: Do women who like breasts like breasts in the same way that men who like breasts like breasts?

No, women like breasts as a way of attracting a man but men like breasts as something to get their teeth into.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think fellow posters would appreciate you not being so adament about taking this thread off its topic. I don't feel obliged to satisfy your curiosity.

Seeing as you were making some pretty broad generalizations about men, I didn't think the question was unreasonable.

It's refreshing, though, that the thread has been restored to the natural order of things: women complaining about how disappointing men are, rather than the other way around. I guess it doesn't matter that it was women who brought up dating jerks in the first place.

[Delta40]

Also

The 3 highest rated attributes on the men's poll are:

1) face 2) Breasts 3)Build

Whilst on the woman's poll they are:

1) Humor 2)Intelligence 3) Kindness

I think the fundamental differences here are that humour, intelligence and kindess are going to have a much more sustainable effect in a long term relationship than face, breasts and build. The qualities that women are looking for will not necessarily disappear over time as opposed to the physical qualities that men look for.

Perhaps the laws of attraction for gender are simply the primitive self as translated in the 21st century (at least from a female perspective)

[prendrelemick]

Because, even on an internet forum, men feel self-conscious about admitting that they look for qualities in women other than big breasts and a hot figure. I think young men in particular find it very hard to have an adult discussion with eachother about what they look for in a partner.

It's all very immature.

Men have two brains. Firstly there is the brain that resides in the cranium which may indeed be attracted by sense of humour, kindness, personality etc.. Then there's our second brain located somewhere in the trouser region. It is a userper and an upstart and it doesnt care for any of that, it goes for the hot body and big breasts everytime.

[Delta40]

Men have two brains. Firstly there is the brain that resides in the cranium which may indeed be attracted by sense of humour, kindness, personality etc.. Then there's our second brain located somewhere in the trouser region. It is a userper and an upstart and it doesnt care for any of that, it goes for the hot body and big breasts everytime.

I also hear there isn't enough blood to flow to both heads at the same time and there lies the problem :ladysman:

[OrphanPip]

I voted for kindness and humour too!

Although, I was confused over which poll I should vote in.

[Delta40]

Men have two brains. Firstly there is the brain that resides in the cranium which may indeed be attracted by sense of humour, kindness, personality etc.. Then there's our second brain located somewhere in the trouser region. It is a userper and an upstart and it doesnt care for any of that, it goes for the hot body and big breasts everytime.

I also hear there isn't enough blood to flow to both heads at the same time (won't you drop dead if that happens?) and there lies the problem :ladysman:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I also hear there isn't enough blood to flow to both heads at the same time and there lies the problem :ladysman:

I have actually heard that's the physiological reason men want to take a nap afterwards.

[Emil Miller]

I also hear there isn't enough blood to flow to both heads at the same time (won't you drop dead if that happens?) and there lies the problem :ladysman:

You could be right but what a way to go.

[Delta40]

LMAO! Guys :seeya: I did post something a little more intelligent before that quip if you want to address it

[Babyguile]

It's refreshing, though, that the thread has been restored to the natural order of things: women complaining about how disappointing men are, rather than the other way around.

So, what is it about the women in your life that is troubling you? They don't have big enough breats or a 'banging' body for you?

That's the point, so please take a seat in the corner:icon_bs:

[Alexander III]

I also hear there isn't enough blood to flow to both heads at the same time and there lies the problem :ladysman:

I agree with everything except the final word. Problem. I fail to see how it is a problem.

Also, at the risk of opening up a dangerous can of worms as the saying goes; is anyone else like me, and simply not attracted to certain races. For instance I find caucasians and middle-easterns and north Africans beautiful, on average. But I don't like black or Sino girls. I don't think I would ever be physically attracted to a black girl. And Sino girls I don't much like either. I have had the black girl discussion with several other Italian friends of mine and they all feel the same way, we were all of the same opinion that we would never do a black girl. Not because of racism but simply because we don't find them attractive.

[Scheherazade]

~

F i n a l___R e m i n d e r

Personalised and/or off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.

~

[qimissung]

I have always suspected that my fixation with breasts, might be an indication that deep down I truly am gay; and that my conscious self focuses so highly on breasts purely to ensure that my eyes are always distracted and may never catch sight of a male penis, because once they see it, the ego buried within the depths of the un-conscious shall become infatuated and desirous to such a degree that suppressing my true desire shall become impossible. Well played super-ego. Well played indeed. Never letting me truly discover my homosexual tendencies by ensuring that I am at all times distracted by breasts...well played indeed brain.

That's funny. Now if you were just kind and intelligent! (This is not a personal comment, btw; I'm being funny,Scher!)

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

So, what is it about the women in your life that is troubling you? They don't have big enough breats or a 'banging' body for you?

That's the point, so please take a seat in the corner:icon_bs:

:lol:


I agree with everything except the final word. Problem. I fail to see how it is a problem.

Also, at the risk of opening up a dangerous can of worms as the saying goes; is anyone else like me, and simply not attracted to certain races. For instance I find caucasians and middle-easterns and north Africans beautiful, on average. But I don't like black or Sino girls. I don't think I would ever be physically attracted to a black girl. And Sino girls I don't much like either. I have had the black girl discussion with several other Italian friends of mine and they all feel the same way, we were all of the same opinion that we would never do a black girl. Not because of racism but simply because we don't find them attractive.
Thinking a black girl isn't attractive because she's black isn't racist?

Sorry if this is "off-topic," Scher, but if you don't want people responding to a comment like that, it should probably be deleted.

[Darcy88]

I agree with everything except the final word. Problem. I fail to see how it is a problem.

Also, at the risk of opening up a dangerous can of worms as the saying goes; is anyone else like me, and simply not attracted to certain races. For instance I find caucasians and middle-easterns and north Africans beautiful, on average. But I don't like black or Sino girls. I don't think I would ever be physically attracted to a black girl. And Sino girls I don't much like either. I have had the black girl discussion with several other Italian friends of mine and they all feel the same way, we were all of the same opinion that we would never do a black girl. Not because of racism but simply because we don't find them attractive.

I don't like calling people racist so I won't.

I find women of all races incredibly attractive. One of the great positives of globalization and immigration is that my once nearly-100-percent-causasion area of Canada is now teeming with women of all races and aside from the obvious cultural benefit there is the nice added bonus that I see beautiful women from a wide number of countries and continents - India, China, Africa, Eastern Europe - walking the streets. I find it a lot more interesting. I am not much of a flirt but whenever I do flirt I am glad to no longer be confined to my own race.

I encounter this "black girls are not attractive" thing all over the internet. I don't understand it. It irritates me greatly. If anything you could make the opposite claim, a reverse-racist claim and say that black women, like latino women, often have amazing bodies - are more voluptuous. Most of the women I've dated have been white women so I'm not knocking them or anything. And white women can be voluptuous too and often are, but it just seems from what I've seen in my area and from the internet and television that the women of some other races often have more curvaceous figures. And this includes subsets of the "white" race - like women from Portugal.

Anyway. All races are attractive. I find them equally attractive. A group that doesn't get enough attention for being hot are native women, the indigenous peoples of the lands now called Canada and America.

Race is one of the last things I think about when sizing up a potential partner. And isn't it a proven scientific fact that offspring from mixed couples are stronger or better adapted from an evolutionary point of view? Its like the opposite of inbreeding and from what I know inbreeding is pretty darn unhealthy and sick.

And I honestly don't see how it cannot be deemed racist to write off an entire race's female population as ineligible for mating. Plus you've just removed from your pool of potential partners an entire continent. Anyway.

[stlukesguild]

I'll offer some degree of defense for Alex... although he's quite good at speaking for himself. First of all... he is but 19 years old and quite likely may not have yet come across a Black or Asian woman that he has found personally attractive. Growing up in a predominantly (almost wholly) White community, I don't think I would have entertained the notion of finding either a Black or an Asian woman attractive myself at that age.

I will go on to say that there is a degree of hypocrisy involved in this thread when one is asked for an honest response concerning what initially attracts us as individuals... and then when such honest answers are put forth, some are taken to task concerning their answers. Honestly, propriety and political correctness have nothing to do with what we are or aren't attracted to. The fact that Alex has isn't sexually attracted to Black or Asian women would seem to me no more racist than the fact that I have never been sexually attracted to men is sexist. Alex may be wholly respectful... even admiring of Black and Asian women in every other context, but simply finds that he has never been physically attracted to any of them. I suspect there are certain attributes that we all find unattractive to a given extent and as such are not attracted to individuals with these attributes. Obviously, this amounts to a prejudice or discrimination of a sort... but desire... attraction is nothing if not discriminating and propriety, equality, justice, and political correctness have absolutely nothing to do with it.

And in case some were wondering... in light of my defense of Alex... yes, I most certainly have come across more than my fair share of Black, Asian, and Hispanic/Latino women that I have found deadly attractive. One of my favorite operatic performers... and I'll admit that her appearance bears far more weight upon my admiration than her solid singing abilities... is the soprano, Danielle de Niese, who is of Sri Lankan Burgher heritage... a Eurasian ethnic group, historically from Sri Lanka, involving a mixture of European and native Sinhalese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7onnt2OvPY

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Good points, all, stlukes. I retract my implications, Alex.

And I'm also a fan of de Niese. I saw her in a simulcast production of "Treasure Island" (or a title like that, not 100% sure). She stole the show. She's beautiful, a good singer, but a great performer, too. She was in a comedic role and had everyone laughing consistently. But I digress . . .

[prendrelemick]

Black, white, yellow (?) or whatever - some women speak directly to your second brain, or your libido. Ideally you are looking for someone who entertains the cranial brain too.

One of the most attractive quality a woman can have is to show an interest in you, to seek you out to flirt with. We shallow men like this, it massages our egos. I don't think this works both ways, because men tend to try and flirt with anything in a skirt.

[Darcy88]

Aloofness is a quality that I find to be a great turn on. An aloof woman, one who looks at me like I simply do not impress her, does in that way greatly impress me. She has to warm up and be friendly, but an initial aloofness bespeaks something, I don't know whether to call it virtue or superiority or shyness or what, but I like it, it turns me on.

[stlukesguild]

One of the most attractive quality a woman can have is to show an interest in you, to seek you out to flirt with. We shallow men like this, it massages our egos. I don't think this works both ways, because men tend to try and flirt with anything in a skirt.

Quite true. Chris Rock explains this reality better than anyone (don't click on this link if you are easily offended or underage.... now eveyone will be sure to look:brow::devil:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMiyg87UhL4

[Emil Miller]

... because men tend to try and flirt with anything in a skirt.

Well almost anything.



http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2459/20090519skirtsuit250x37.jpg

[cacian]

Well almost anything.



http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2459/20090519skirtsuit250x37.jpg

Humm there is something quite wrong with the whole ensemble I am not getting the mix of the fashions here.
I would say wrong shoes and wrong jacket and definetely NO TIGHTS PLEASE!!!!, I will leave the skirt but shorten it so that the legs are showing.
I will replace shoes and jacket with a see through sheer blouse to emphasise the curves of the arms and body and thrown flats summary sandals for effect.
Haha that was nice to do liberating!!:D:thumbsup:
I cannot stand tie and suits so dated as to the shoes oh dear another tighteness not needed !:nonod:

[Emil Miller]

Here's a natty little number if you prefer a shorter skirt.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3403/imagescatzytek.jpg

[cacian]

Here's a natty little number if you prefer a shorter skirt.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3403/imagescatzytek.jpg

Emil thank you that is slightely better but I feel the hat must go because a visible likeable face is important to the whole outfit.
The jacket shoes and socks must definetely go too. A skirt is usually light and indicate summer and warmth time reallly one can't have heated feet inside thick winter socks and a skirt it is a mismatch and it is not comfortable.
so as recap just a sheer blouse, skirt and sandals with a the rest of the person body and face visible haha:biggrin5:

[Alexander III]

I'll offer some degree of defense for Alex... although he's quite good at speaking for himself. First of all... he is but 19 years old and quite likely may not have yet come across a Black or Asian woman that he has found personally attractive. Growing up in a predominantly (almost wholly) White community, I don't think I would have entertained the notion of finding either a Black or an Asian woman attractive myself at that age.

I will go on to say that there is a degree of hypocrisy involved in this thread when one is asked for an honest response concerning what initially attracts us as individuals... and then when such honest answers are put forth, some are taken to task concerning their answers. Honestly, propriety and political correctness have nothing to do with what we are or aren't attracted to. The fact that Alex has isn't sexually attracted to Black or Asian women would seem to me no more racist than the fact that I have never been sexually attracted to men is sexist. Alex may be wholly respectful... even admiring of Black and Asian women in every other context, but simply finds that he has never been physically attracted to any of them. I suspect there are certain attributes that we all find unattractive to a given extent and as such are not attracted to individuals with these attributes. Obviously, this amounts to a prejudice or discrimination of a sort... but desire... attraction is nothing if not discriminating and propriety, equality, justice, and political correctness have absolutely nothing to do with it.

And in case some were wondering... in light of my defense of Alex... yes, I most certainly have come across more than my fair share of Black, Asian, and Hispanic/Latino women that I have found deadly attractive. One of my favorite operatic performers... and I'll admit that her appearance bears far more weight upon my admiration than her solid singing abilities... is the soprano, Danielle de Niese, who is of Sri Lankan Burgher heritage... a Eurasian ethnic group, historically from Sri Lanka, involving a mixture of European and native Sinhalese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7onnt2OvPY


Well put, I think you covered it all. Except for one thing I disagree with; which is the lack of exposure to certain races means that one finds them less attractive. Well at least in the case of sino girls.

I lived for 5 years in Singapore, during a crucial formational period, when began puberty and such. And I would think that my cause for not fining sino girls attractive is over-exposure rather than under-exposure. There were so many there and there were so few caucasians that the sino girl became common and the caucasian rare. And I am quite sure that is why I am not attracted to them, because in my mind they are still common, unlike for most western males. Also I hate it when western guys say I like Asian girls, and yet are unable to see any difference between a japanese korean or chinese girl. I could differentiate the 3 just as easily as I could differentiate between an Italian, English and Bulgarian girl. Yet most western guys don't see these apparent physical differences. It's like when a chinese guy who has never been to europe says I love western girls, and he would not be able to see the difference between a scandinavian and a Spanish girl.

Also while in Italy there are few sub-sharans, France and England have a strong population of them, and most french and English (white) friends of mine feel the same way, in fact of all my white friends I think roughly 8/10 of them are not attracted to black girls. As St.lukes pointed out it is stupid to think this is racism as racism would be, She is pretty, but she is black so I would never - just as homophobia is not, I am not attracted to guys ergo I am homophobic, so much as it would be Wow I would like to sleep with him, eeew im not gay no way.

It may be an age thing, but I don't see why that would be. Maybe considering the large segment of white male population which is not attracted to black girls, at a young age black girls are simply uglier and as they grow older they develop better.

Oh and P.S If you guys use examples of black girls you are attracted to by citing mixed race girls...well... you'r not exactly strengthening your argument. I find the girl in the video very attractive. But she is not black, or if she is included in your definition of black girls, then I too in such a case am attracted to black girls, just not the darker ones.



I cannot stand tie and suits so dated as to the shoes oh dear another tighteness not needed !:nonod:


I am sorry, are you aquatinted with the word "job"

[Delta40]

Also I hate it when western guys say I like Asian girls, and yet are unable to see any difference between a japanese korean or chinese girl. I could differentiate the 3 just as easily as I could differentiate between an Italian, English and Bulgarian girl. Yet most western guys don't see these apparent physical differences. It's like when a chinese guy who has never been to europe says I love western girls, and he would not be able to see the difference between a scandinavian and a Spanish girl.


Lol the Vietnamese guy that works at the cafe outside my workplace (who we call 'Flipper' because he tells girls he's trying to pick up that he is a dolphin trainer) often gets our coffees mixed up when he writes the names on the cups and when we stir him about it he exclaims, 'You white girls - you all look the same!' He's dating white girls but he's young, good looking and I think he's just doing everything he can to get lucky - even if he can't tell the difference!

[tonywalt]

Lol the Vietnamese guy that works at the cafe outside my workplace (who we call 'Flipper' because he tells girls he's trying to pick up that he is a dolphin trainer) often gets our coffees mixed up when he writes the names on the cups and when we stir him about it he exclaims, 'You white girls - you all look the same!' He's dating white girls but he's young, good looking and I think he's just doing everything he can to get lucky - even if he can't tell the difference!

LOL, that says something about the currency of white girls when he dates/prefers them even though they "all look the same".

[Delta40]

LOL, that says something about the currency of white girls when he dates/prefers them even though they "all look the same".

His mother complains to us that he has no respect for his culture, that he is only interested in anything Australian!

[JuniperWoolf]

That is good to hear. Can I have A guy, 6ft, brown eyes, good sense of humour, intelligent WITH A BIG ****??? Oh and extra fries please....

Haha, you took the joke right out of my mouth.



Meantime, I would like to do my part to dispel the generalization of the shallow, physical-attribute-obsessed man.

Yeah, I noticed that Loka hasn't posted in these threads since the "boobies!" crowd kind of ridiculed him out of the first one. That's something we'd have to look at in evaluating the poll results and responses.


Meantime, I would like to do my part to dispel the generalization of the shallow, physical-attribute-obsessed man. Unfortunately, I've realized that the first thing I checked out when looking at the women's poll results was whether any women voted for boobs (One did! Yes!).

So before I go back into my cave, I'd like to ask this question: Do women who like breasts like breasts in the same way that men who like breasts like breasts?

Women are attracted to the breasts of other women. I remember the numbers on it from last year's social psychology course, over 30% of females under the age of 30 self-report sexual experience with members of the same sex and over 65% reported same-sex attraction (of course, it was much higher for women - society is more intolerant of male homosexuality). These threads are confusing for same-sex attraction however, so I'd be willing to bet that the one chick who voted for "breasts" meant female breasts. Me, I just answered the "for men" poll and selected the traits which I admire in women.


I guess it doesn't matter that it was women who brought up dating jerks in the first place.

Actually, it was Neely:


anyway I don't believe it. Women always say things like 'humour', 'nice eyes' or 'cute smile', but then go for the office/jerk/bad boy/flashy shirt/heavy bank account types.

...'Cuz Helga and LadyLuck and all them said they liked kindness. And thus, the timeless battle lines were re-drawn. I'm considering telling people that I was born intersex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex) so that I have an excuse not to play. Imagine how freeing that would be.


I voted for kindness and humour too!

Although, I was confused over which poll I should vote in.

I voted for build, face, arrogance, and clothing, and I voted in both, because :confused5:.


Also, at the risk of opening up a dangerous can of worms as the saying goes; is anyone else like me, and simply not attracted to certain races.

Yes, this was discussed very briefly in the first thread when PoeticPassions said that she had a particular fondness for black men, to which I responded:


A friend of mine once asked me "why is it that every girl you've ever liked has looked like the product of a six-generation eugenics experiment?" *shrug* That's just how it is. You shouldn't feel bad if you're particularly fond of dark guys, physical attraction can't be overridden by notions of political correctness.

I've never been attracted to East Asian or black men. The typical physiological traits just don't do it for me. They work well on a female though. I find that to me there are attractive women in all races, but I much prefer very pale caucasion women with blonde or red hair. My boyfriend's not attracted to hispanic women, but he loves black women, I'd say that's his favorite typical racial trait combination.

[Dina12]

[QUOTE=stlukesguild;1153626]One of the most attractive quality a woman can have is to show an interest in you, to seek you out to flirt with. We shallow men like this, it massages our egos. I don't think this works both ways, because men tend to try and flirt with anything in a skirt.

Are you kidding, nothing turns meo on like being chased...by a worthy manof course but still, nothing better than flattery to catch my attention, that said I'm a little vauge, so perhaps it only works because I never notice people otherwise. That said, there is nothing worse than being hit on by a bogan.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

It was Pensive.


Kindness, innocence, honesty and simplicity
Modesty too.

However for some reason I have always found the only people who are attracted to me happen to be real jerks who do not possess any of the attributes mentioned above. Maybe I am just not good enough for the good guys out there! :( :p (but well that's another topic for discussion).

[JuniperWoolf]

Only jerks are attracted to her? "Jerks are attracted to me" isn't the same thing as "women are attracted to jerks," which is what the majority of this thread has been about. Those sentences are almost exact opposites actually. The sentiments expressed in both posts, "I like kindness, jerks are attracted to me," and "all women are attracted to jerks," are contradictions. So, either Pensive is a liar, she's delusional, or Neely is wrong. Either way Pensive didn't start us on this train, you're the first person to reference that post and this all started with Neely's, as his expressed opinion was the one which was picked up by other posters and discussed.

Just painting the scenario, not drawing conclusions. And also, what does it matter? have we descended to the "they started it" level? Are you and Neely on a team now, and me and my vagina aren't allowed to join? You know, I was born intersex.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Yes. Yes we have.

I didn't say Pensive said "women are attracted to jerks," all I said was the a woman brought up the whole jerks and women thing. That's all. Neely may have really got the ball rolling, but the topic has already been mentioned.

[Emil Miller]

Yes. Yes we have.

I didn't say Pensive said "women are attracted to jerks," all I said was the a woman brought up the whole jerks and women thing. That's all. Neely may have really got the ball rolling, but the topic has already been mentioned.

'Jerk' is an American expression seldom used in the UK and I was surprised that Neely used it. It's probably due to watching too many Woody Alan films. I always knew no good would come of it.

[LitNetIsGreat]

'Jerk' is an American expression seldom used in the UK and I was surprised that Neely used it. It's probably due to watching too many Woody Alan films. I always knew no good would come of it.

:lol: Maybe. It's not a word I would normally use. I think I must have just subliminally picked it up from the previous posts. In my defence I did later use the word 'dickhead' - (also not usually a word I use unless angry occasionally, but it's not an Americanism at least)... I still of course fully standby the sentiment of my original points...because they are true!

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please keep in mind that this Forum is open to people from different age groups and social/cultural/eligious backgrounds.

Off-topic posts have been and will be deleted without further notice.

~

[tonywalt]

That is good to hear. Can I have A guy, 6ft, brown eyes, good sense of humour, intelligent WITH A BIG ****??? Oh and extra fries please....

Sure, just add two inches........ to my height.

[Pensive]

:lol:

Yes. Yes we have.

I didn't say Pensive said "women are attracted to jerks," all I said was the a woman brought up the whole jerks and women thing. That's all. Neely may have really got the ball rolling, but the topic has already been mentioned.

I am sorry but I can't stop laughing at how my use of the word 'jerk' has initiated all this argument! Maybe I should be careful of inviting wrath of all men next time by calling any man a jerk (even when he rightfully deserves so!)
Or I could just defend myself by saying I never made a generalization like women go for jerks/men go for gold-diggers. I merely shared a personal experience.


Edit: anyway I don't believe it. Women always say things like 'humour', 'nice eyes' or 'cute smile', but then go for the office/jerk/bad boy/flashy shirt/heavy bank account types. Trust me, in this I am right, I've seen it all before too many times.

Women don't always list these qualities as their preference. Several women are very open about liking glamor, beauty or wealth as well. No matter how much of a carbon copy of each other women may sound to some men, just like men, women actually tend to differ from each other as well and have different priorities. So I don't really see why we would need to doubt any women for their views on this thread.

[tonywalt]

:lol:



Women don't always list these qualities as their preference. Several women are very open about liking glamor, beauty or wealth as well. No matter how much of a carbon copy of each other women may sound to some men, just like men, women actually tend to differ from each other as well and have different priorities. So I don't really see why we would need to doubt any women for their views on this thread.

I have to agree with Mutatis.

In about 20 minutes I will be having drinks at a wine bar. How many women(an) and to what degree I am able to Attract them will be 90 % dependent on how much Agency, Social Dynamic, Sheer Popularity, and perceived Leadership Qualities I display. Although I adore women, I am sooooo hyper aware of this reality-all men are, as can be seen from our input in the thread.

I speak of the laws of Attraction not the things that maintain a healthy relationship(we should not confuse, as I think we already have done)). As a paradox, many of the above qualities are not conducive to a healthy relationship - from a woman's perspective.

I hang out with women more than men (platonic or not) because they tend to have interests more similar, leaning heavy to the arts - and I do adore them. But I pay close attention to what they do and much less to what they say - with respect to this Topic.

[Pensive]

I have to agree with Mutatis.

In about 20 minutes I will be having drinks at a wine bar. How many women(an) and to what degree I am able to Attract them will be 90 % dependent on how much Agency, Social Dynamic, Sheer Popularity, and perceived Leadership Qualities I display. Although I adore women, I am sooooo hyper aware of this reality-all men are, as can be seen from our input in the thread.

I speak of the laws of Attraction not the things that maintain a healthy relationship(we should not confuse, as I think we already have done)). As a paradox, many of the above qualities are not conducive to a healthy relationship - from a woman's perspective.

I hang out with women more than men (platonic or not) because they tend to have interests more similar, leaning heavy to the arts - and I do adore them. But I pay close attention to what they do and much less to what they say - with respect to this Topic.

There still are women who actually do what they say! :p

[tonywalt]

There still are women who actually do what they say! :p

I, along with virtually every guy here, have to attract women - we Need to attract women. Again, I talk of attraction, not qualities looked for in a relationship.

That's why you don't here any guys on here complaining that women just use us because we have a nice a@@ or good biceps, and that's what they mostly care about.

Pensive, you have to ask me - why would I say all this if it was not my learned by trials and errors experience.

On the other hand, when I have been in a gay bar - the criteria for attraction is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH(jaw droppingly) different. I dare say my situation would be a damn sight easier in that world, as for how much I could attract.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I have to agree with Mutatis.


That's refreshing.



Pensive, you have to ask me - why would I say all this if it was not my learned by trials and errors experience.

Well, I've come to the conclusion, by what all the women have said here, is that women aren't shallow (men are) and women don't date jerks, and the only reason we said that they do is because we're insecure losers and don't get any women.

I know one thing. If it wasn't for the fact that I'm not sexually attracted to men, I'd have no problem being a homosexual.

[Darcy88]

............

[Revolte]

So that's what attracts women - guys like me, guys with no job, no car, no money, with nothing but a vague plan.

Go us!

[LitNetIsGreat]

:lol:
Women don't always list these qualities as their preference. Several women are very open about liking glamor, beauty or wealth as well. No matter how much of a carbon copy of each other women may sound to some men, just like men, women actually tend to differ from each other as well and have different priorities. So I don't really see why we would need to doubt any women for their views on this thread.

Naturally generalisations are just that, but like I said before I have seen it too many times. I don't doubt the women on the poll believe in their views, I just know that in a practical and realistic setting, humour or blue eyes or intelligence just doesn't cut the mustard in the crowd Vs the, shall we say, confident/arrogant alpha male types, no way.

[Helga]

Naturally generalisations are just that, but like I said before I have seen it too many times. I don't doubt the women on the poll believe in their views, I just know that in a practical and realistic setting, humour or blue eyes or intelligence just doesn't cut the mustard in the crowd Vs the, shall we say, confident/arrogant alpha male types, no way.

I think I agree, I love making lists so when I took this poll I took my time and thought about everything I picked carefully before. After I did that though and just a few days ago I decided to stop making lists like this because if I look at my track record my ex boyfriends didn't fit in that category.

Chemistry is probably the one thing that matters.... I say this after thinking a lot about me and looking at my best friend and my brother, both of them are in a relationship with someone they never would have described before as ideal.

at the moment my 'list' only has someone with similar views on life and willing to listen to me talk about odd things, I tend to do that and most people look at me like I'm crazy.

[JuniperWoolf]

Naturally generalisations are just that, but like I said before I have seen it too many times. I don't doubt the women on the poll believe in their views, I just know that in a practical and realistic setting, humour or blue eyes or intelligence just doesn't cut the mustard in the crowd Vs the, shall we say, confident/arrogant alpha male types, no way.

You've mentioned this "blue eyes" thing several times now. Calidore included that in the poll because of this response of mine in the original thread:


I think there are different types of people, like combinations of traits that re-occur fairly often. One specific trait isn't really enough to base attraction on. For males, I noticed I especially gravitate towards:

1. Messy-brown-hair-with-glasses types
2. Pale-skin-black-hair-and-blue-eyes types

I'm just as shallow as you think all carbon-copy men are. Actually, that's the funny thing: your view isn't just narrrow-minded in regards to women (as Pensive very well stated, "no matter how much of a carbon copy of each other women may sound to some men, just like men, women actually tend to differ from each other as well and have different priorities"), it also pigeonholes men. There's no room for Calidore or Loka in your worldview (that's two of the five men who have weighed in on this topic if I'm remembering everyone), they proclaim to be much more drawn to non-physical traits which makes them "self-deluded," but hey! Men aren't self-deluded! Men know what's going on in their mind, it's women who are self-deluded!

So yeah, I wouldn't say you particularly dislike women (unlike Mutatis, which was an unpleasant surprise), I'd say you're sexist in regards to both men and women, and that you base your worldview on stereotypes while ceasing to acknowledge the numerous examples which contradict them. I mean, you could have at least said in your original post eight pages ago that all of it was broad generalization, it's ignorant to just say "WOMEN do THIS, and MEN do THIS!!!" like all behaviors and preferences can be predicted depending on the subject's body.

Also, many of your generalizations aren't correct. I'd say that women do feel a strong sexual attraction to "bad boy" types, that seems to fit (although I still contend that this is merely sexual and that people choose long-term mates based on shared traits and not based on whether or not said mate is a "bad boy," this is also supported by science). However, humor does matter to sexual attraction: it's a large part of charm, and I'd very much argue that "charm" counts for as much if not more than "confidence" (both of which I might add are non-physical attributes, so could being attracted to confidence really be considered shallow?).

[LitNetIsGreat]

You've mentioned this "blue eyes" thing several times now. Calidore included that in the poll because of this response of mine in the original thread:



I'm just as shallow as you think all carbon-copy men are. Actually, that's the funny thing: your view isn't just narrrow-minded in regards to women (as Pensive very well stated, "no matter how much of a carbon copy of each other women may sound to some men, just like men, women actually tend to differ from each other as well and have different priorities"), it also pigeonholes men. There's no room for Calidore or Loka in your worldview (that's two of the five men who have spoken up on this topic, according to my headcount), they proclaim to be much more drawn to non-physical traits which makes them "hypocrites," but hey! Men aren't hypocrites! Men know what's going on in their mind, it's women who are self-deluded!

So yeah, I wouldn't say you particularly dislike women (unlike Mutatis, which was an unpleasant surprise), I'd say you're sexist in regards to both men and women, and that you base your worldview on stereotypes while ignoring that which contradicts the rules as you've come to understand them. I mean, you could have at least aknowledged that what you were saying was a very broad generalization before your most recent post addressing Pensive.

And also humor does matter: it's a large part of charm, and charm counts for even more than "confidence" (both of which I might add are non-physical attributes, so could being attracted to confidence really be considered "shallow?").

First thing. I mention blue eyes because eyes is fourth on the poll behind humour, intelligence and kindness, as well as it being such a cliché thing ('tall, dark and handsome' is another. I don't mention them in reference to some other thread that I haven't even read I don't think!?! In you think I mention blue eyes as some weird cross reference to you then there is even more delusion going on.

Secondly, my points are not narrow-minded, I'm not sexist and I don't hold a world view based on rigid stereotypes - though experience of the world counts for a lot in my opinion. Naturally generalisations are just that, like I said, but I stand by my points because this is overwhelmingly my experience as it obviously is with other men. The polite and respect chap who sits in the corner just does not attract women like the centre of attention/alpha male character - I can't believe you can think otherwise.

This deluded insistence on women being primarily attracted to humour, intelligence and politeness (and eye colour) can be really annoying for men whose past experience tells them otherwise.

[JuniperWoolf]

First thing. I mention blue eyes because eyes is fourth on the poll behind humour, intelligence and kindness, as well as it being such a cliché thing. ('tall, dark and handsome' is another. I don't mention them in reference to some other thread that I haven't even read I don't think!?! In you think I mention blue eyes as some weird cross reference to you then there is even more delusion going on.

Yes, and this poll is a conglomeration of traits mentioned by people in the previous thread, "blue eyes" being one that I myself contributed in the post which I just now quoted, and as you've brought it up several times as an example of female delusion I thought I'd clarify. Also, calm down, you sound somewhat hysterical.


The polite and respect chap who sits in the corner just does not attract women like the centre of attention/alpha male character - I can't believe you can think otherwise.

That's obviously not where I take issue, seeing as how I posted the following:


I'd say that women do feel a strong sexual attraction to "bad boy" types, that seems to fit (although I still contend that this is merely sexual and that people choose long-term mates based on shared traits and not based on whether or not said mate is a "bad boy," this is also supported by science).

My entire point was summed up in my post here:


{you're}... ceasing to acknowledge the numerous examples which contradict {your generalizations}. I mean, you could have at least said in your original post eight pages ago that all of it was broad generalization, it's ignorant to just say "WOMEN do THIS, and MEN do THIS!!!" like all behaviors and preferences can be predicted depending on the subject's body


This deluded insistence on women being primarily attracted to humour, intelligence and politeness (and eye colour) can be really annoying for men whose past experience tells them otherwise.

Why would you care? And also, if it's WOMEN who do this, then why have two of the five MEN who have weighed in on this topic (again, according to my memory) also mentioned being primarily and initially attracted to non-physical attributes such as intelligence? If it's what WOMEN do, and MEN aren't delusional like WOMEN, then why did 40% of MEN in these threads do the same thing? See, your insistance is based on a broad generalization to which you cease to acknowledge exceptions, and is sexist to both men and women. Generalizations are sexist, just like they are racist when you say "Asians are good at math," or "Jews love money."

And also, humor is sexually attractive. A person is made exponentially more attractive if they are witty, charming and funny. I have no idea why you don't see it, it's very evident in daily life and has been discussed at length in this very thread. I don't write this with the explicit intent of offending you, but the fact is your own sense of humor isn't exactly shining, so if your own "personal experience" has told you that women don't fall for a sense of humor, this might be the explanation.

[tonywalt]

The whole "women like bad boys" is just another more clever and giggle inducing way of saying they are naturally and chemically attracted to Alpha males, who have the pick of the litter and typically, with exception, will use that power to have a plurality of women- making them a bad boy.

That's all there is to know about bad boy attraction. If your loner or socially awkward or shy to a fault you can be a Bad Boy - all by your damn self.

[LitNetIsGreat]

The whole "women like bad boys" is just another more clever and giggle inducing way of saying they are naturally and chemically attracted to Alpha males, who have the pick of the litter and typically, with exception, will use that power to have a plurality of women- making them a bad boy.

That's all there is to know about bad boy attraction. If your loner or socially awkward or shy to a fault you can be a Bad Boy - all by your damn self.

Yes, that is about the bottom line of it. Of course, some women would have us believe, not likely, that what they primarily are attracted to is humour, intelligence and politeness???

Of course this makes the likes of Ken Dodd really hot stuff!!

Corr hot stuff for you there ladies!


http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/12_03/doddDM2312_228x280.jpg

Humour, intelligence and politeness all in one!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4znpOdPRrg

Thank me later...

[Delta40]

I never dated a guy that didn't make me laugh. Even if he was good looking, who wants the company of a whinger?

[Jack of Hearts]

Yes, that is about the bottom line of it. Of course, some women would have us believe, not likely, that what they primarily are attracted to is humour, intelligence and politeness???

Of course this makes the likes of Ken Dodd really hot stuff!!

Corr hot stuff for you there ladies!


http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/12_03/doddDM2312_228x280.jpg

Humour, intelligence and politeness all in one!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4znpOdPRrg

Thank me later...


This is one of the stupidest things this reader has ever read. This reader, simply put, is one of the lamest, un-baddest guys ever- and to use understatement: women have never been a problem.

Be careful about misogynistic attitudes and even more careful with how you think of yourself.







J

Edit: Meant to clip some of tony's post in with the quoted one. Condemn both equally.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I think I agree, I love making lists so when I took this poll I took my time and thought about everything I picked carefully before. After I did that though and just a few days ago I decided to stop making lists like this because if I look at my track record my ex boyfriends didn't fit in that category.

Chemistry is probably the one thing that matters.... I say this after thinking a lot about me and looking at my best friend and my brother, both of them are in a relationship with someone they never would have described before as ideal.

at the moment my 'list' only has someone with similar views on life and willing to listen to me talk about odd things, I tend to do that and most people look at me like I'm crazy.

Yes, also don't forget that this is not a thread about your ideal man, but rather what first attracts. Overall and generally speaking, I just can't buy the argument that the majority of women initially seek humour, intelligence and kindness and thereby ignore the confident and attractive 'alpha male' type, because this is simply not true. If Brad Pitt walked into a bar would he be totally ignored by the women in there? Would the ugly man in the corner reading an advanced chemistry textbook be mobbed instead? For this is what is being implied here.


This is one of the stupidest things this reader has ever read. This reader, simply put, is one of the lamest, un-baddest guys ever- and to use understatement: women have never been a problem.

Be careful about misogynistic attitudes and even more careful with how you think of yourself.

Just what are you on about? Ken Dodd has a great sense of humour, is the very hub of kindness and actually is very intelligent - the ideal man?

[tonywalt]

I never dated a guy that didn't make me laugh. Even if he was good looking, who wants the company of a whinger?

Exactly, humour falls under social dynamic and it's probably the biggest key on the ring in attraction. Sorry, I should have spelled it out. I am not talking about what is good in a relationship, but rather what "attract..first".

[Delta40]

Exactly, humour falls under social dynamic and it's probably the biggest key on the ring in attraction. Sorry, I should have spelled it out. I am not talking about what is good in a relationship, but rather what "attract..first".

so you're saying a sense of humour cannot compensate for physical attributes in an attract first context?

[Darcy88]

Humor and intelligence do set women on fire as far as attraction goes. Wit is an essential element of charm. The smart and humorous average looking man will have the advantage over the sullen/arrogant/humorless but absolutely gorgeous man. Both will have great luck with women. Confidence really helps. A guy with wit and confidence will outdo a handsome man who lacks these characteristics and shines only superficially.

[Delta40]

Humor and intelligence do set women on fire as far as attraction goes. Wit is an essential element of charm. The smart and humorous average looking man will have the advantage over the sullen/arrogant/humorless but absolutely gorgeous man. Both will have great luck with women. Confidence really helps. A guy with wit and confidence will outdo a handsome man who lacks these characteristics and shines only superficially.

I was watching Hustle lastnight and the guys reckon the best pick up was to pull out the handkerchief and start gently sobbing because a woman cannot resist a man who cries since it awakens all her maternal instincts....:yikes:

[tonywalt]

so you're saying a sense of humour cannot compensate for physical attributes in an attract first context?

Exactly, hell yea, it's 110 times more important that what I guy looks like. It's part of the social dynamic.


I was watching Hustle lastnight and the guys reckon the best pick up was to pull out the handkerchief and start gently sobbing because a woman cannot resist a man who cries since it awakens all her maternal instincts....:yikes:

Yea, it awakens her maternal instincts. It depends on what instinct you are hoping to awaken within her......

[Delta40]

Yea, it awakens her maternal instincts. It depends on what instinct you are hoping to awaken within her......

lol. Play it right and she'll make you feel all better!

[tonywalt]

lol. Play it right and she'll make you feel all better!

Hm, maybe, but it's too easy - candy from a baby. Weak crying guy at the bar trick - every guy does it.

[Delta40]

Hm, maybe, but it's too easy - candy from a baby. Weak crying guy at the bar trick - every guy does it.

Don't worry Tony, since moral conscience wasn't on the poll, it can't be a first attraction for women but mind you do it intelligently and with a sense of humour :devil:

[LitNetIsGreat]

Originally Posted by Neely View Post
This deluded insistence on women being primarily attracted to humour, intelligence and politeness (and eye colour) can be really annoying for men whose past experience tells them otherwise.


Why would you care?

I'm not unpacking the rest of your psycho babble because life is too short - I'm talking about the Jews, Asians and hysterics et al: ('Generalizations are sexist, just like they are racist when you say "Asians are good at math," or "Jews love money.") :confused: please point out my racist/anti-Semitism in this thread, anyway, I'll answer this one...

I care because it is somewhat irritating to pretend that the majority of women are initially attracted to such traits in men as: intelligence, humour, kindness and eyes, and supposedly reject, good looks and 'alpha male' confidence and everything that comes with that - even fame, status or money? Are we supposed to genuinely believe that? Do you genuinely think so? Is it just me, Tony and MM etc who are mad then?

I personally care because this is actually an insult to all men who possess at least an element of kindness, humour and/or intelligence and see time and time again that this is not so. What tosh.

[Delta40]

Has it occurred to you Neely that heaps of women out there don't even have their radar on? That they're not even looking for a guy so when it does switch on its because of some guy that has finally penetrated through to them and it wasn't because of his alpha male characteristics, fame or money? I honestly don't know how you're limiting women - whether by age, demographics or what but you're doing a great job at stereotyping women across the board and Juniperwoolf's point about generalisations was well made.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I don't dislike women, this thread just got me riled up. I guess I should have included an emoticon to indicate a lack of complete seriousness with some of my comments (I thought Juniper, of all people, could figure that out--I guess that's an unpleasant surprise, too).

I can't say there isn't a certain bitterness in me if it's channeled, though (it was channeled here, obviously). I'm witty and have a sense of humor. I've made women laugh before. But I know better than most anyone that looks do indeed matter. Humor and charm may be the top of your list, but I can't help thinking anyone (man or woman) who doesn't acknowledge that looks matter is a liar.

All I've commented on is what I've observed in my own life, and that's that it seems like a lot of women date a-holes. So do men. It's usually not the person they end up with, because they realize the guy, or woman, is an a-hole. I've also noticed a lot of these women/men are usually not too bright, which is the opposite of the women on here. I think the women on here may not be the best representation of the average woman. That's a compliment--I feel like I need to point that out.

All the generalization I've made about women are the same ones I make about men. I don't think men and women are completely the same, but when it comes to relationships and attraction, I don't think we're that different. I think women can be just as shallow as men. That's not a sexist statement. It's the opposite. If my generalizations are wrong, then they're wrong for both sexes. Still, the opposite-sex bashing hasn't been all one side. There've been some snide comments made about men on here by women; maybe not as many, but there has. It goes both ways. In my life, I've heard women complain about men way more than vice-versa (men are pigs, insensitive, slobs, etc). Men's discussions on women usually boils down to "I don't understand."

And, one last thing. I think a lot assumed, including me, that these polls about what initially attracted someone to the opposite sex were strictly about physicality, because that is what out initial attraction is based on. I guess for some it was implied that the question "What attracts you first" included a bit of conversation with that person, or something. Still, I can't believe that when a woman, any woman, sees a physically attractive man from across the room, they're not attracted to him until they find out he has a good since of humor.

Edit: FB hasn't helped my views, either. I just logged on and saw yet another meme complaining about men, and it was the third thing down in the newsfeed, organized by most recent posts. This one said, "You're just like a penny. Worthless and found in everyone's pants." I see multiple posts like this daily (I almost never see a guy post similar things about women). My response to these has always been the same--quit dating guys like that (of course they come back with "all guys are like that"). I recently posted this mini-rant on FB: "What's with all this sappy relationship bull**** posts women are making? You want a good guy. We get it. Maybe you should stop dating *******s; that'd probably help." Five women liked it.

[Revolte]

I can't say there isn't a certain bitterness in me if it's channeled, though (it was channeled here, obviously). I'm witty and have a sense of humor. I've made women laugh before. But I know better than most anyone that looks do indeed matter. Humor and charm may be the top of your list, but I can't help thinking anyone (man or woman) who doesn't acknowledge that looks matter is a liar.

You're right on the dot. Looks defiantly matter, they just aren't the only thing that matters. And there isn't much of a definitive trait set for attractiveness either. Although, mythbusters might be on to something. I've always found myself more attracted to women with rounder faces and piercing eyes. Which is probably why I'm so into mexican girls.

But it's true that people like to think looks don't matter, and women are more pressured then men to think that way. After all, you don't wanna be a skank and have a preference, god forbid.... /sarcasm

I had a friend once tell me, though he is a guy and not gay nor bi, that I'm good to have sex with, but would go a little better for dating. As funny as it was, he pretty much hit spot on. I haven't had a relationship lasting longer then two months in a long time. But I've had more partners in the last year then I'm proud of.

So looks do matter, although no one looks exactly the same. And everyone is attracted to someone. I even have a friend who has a preference to "ugly" men.

And why wouldn't looks matter? We are still animals, and still have a sex drive. Yea sure sex is wonderful, but we still have instinct. Do you really want to breed children who won't be fit or have a good chance at reproducing themselves? Even if you say it wouldn't matter, it would.

Our species got this far for a reason.

Personally I think most people are pretty damned hot. But there are certain features that I find to be a turn off. I would imagine it's like that for you ladies here as well. Am I right?


However the same logic suggests intelligence, skill and other not so physical traits are just as important, but that sort of thing won't be an initial attraction in most cases.

[JuniperWoolf]

I'm not unpacking the rest of your psycho babble because life is too short - I'm talking about the Jews, Asians and hysterics et al: ('Generalizations are sexist, just like they are racist when you say "Asians are good at math," or "Jews love money.") :confused: please point out my racist/anti-Semitism in this thread.

How on earth did you get to be a teacher? Alright, let's unpack this slowly.

Stereotypes are dehumanizing. This is so because stereotypes strip people of their individualism, they imply that one person from one group is the same as any other from that group, which humans are not.

To make this point clear I offer a commonly socially recognized example (understand that word): it is dehumanizing and socially unacceptable to make a generalized statement about race, such as "Asians are good at math."

You have throughout this thread been making generalized statements about women, ie. "women are self-deluded," "women lie about their attractions," "all women are attracted to the same kind of man," ect.

Your comments are very sexist, and they are dehumanizing to women.


I personally care because this is actually an insult to all men who possess at least an element of kindness, humour and/or intelligence and see time and time again that this is not so.

Well so maybe a few women weren't attracted to your physicality or character enough to return your advances even though you think that your kindness, intelligence, and humor should have been enough for them (which is debatable). You realize they're allowed to say "no," people do have the right to choose their own mates. That doesn't mean you get to lash out at an entire population due to your bitterness at previous romantic rejection, that's just selfish and ignorant.


Still, the opposite-sex bashing hasn't been all one side. There've been some snide comments made about men on here by women; maybe not as many, but there has. It goes both ways. In my life, I've heard women complain about men way more than vice-versa (men are pigs, insensitive, slobs, etc).

That’s true, it’s more socially acceptable for women to stereotype men than it is for men to stereotype women (they still do it, but at least it's not tolerated outright, eg. commercials in which men are portrayed as incompetant children). I think that’s because men have been dominant without question up until about fifty years ago. It’s the same thing with say, for example, black people in the United States. It’s much more socially acceptable for a black person to say something derogatory towards a white person than vice versa. I dislike it, because the rush you get with the "my tribe vs. yours" feeling is addictive and destructive, and retaliation vicious circle blah blah blah.


Still, I can't believe that when a woman, any woman, sees a physically attractive man from across the room, they're not attracted to him until they find out he has a good since of humor.

No one made that claim, of course everyone is attracted to attractive people (the women on this forum have gone on at length about various celebrities that they find attractive so obviously they're not trying to convince anyone that they're blind), but their level of attraction would increase very much once they talk to him and discover that he's a pleasure to be around, whereas were she to discover that he had a personality trait which she found very unattractive (let’s say, for example, he’s socially inept in a way that makes her uncomfortable) her attraction would very much decrease. That's obvious, right? Attraction for most people, men and women, is a combination of physical and non-physical traits, like a balancing act.

[cacian]

I really personally think that the whole attractiveness business is much much deeper then all of this sometimes it is simply not that simple to explain why one is attracted to another.

[Babyguile]

Stereotypes are dehumanizing. This is so because stereotypes strip people of their individuality, they imply that one person from one group is the same as any other from that group, which humans are not.

Just to take a detour from the tedious and knuckleheaded 'argument' going on in this thread, stereotypes are bad because, on exposure (through any of their many manifestations), they affect a person's self-perception. Humans are multi-faceted and we put on various fronts (i.e. personalities) to suit situations we find ourselves in.

Pedalling a stereotype (as Neely is gleefuly doing) will breed more stereotypical behaviour, as people pander to the dominant stereotype within their social or professional groups in order to fit in. In short, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It sounds simplistic, in fact it sounds very simplistic, but this is how our brain works.

Something as trivial as watching an air-headed young women or a babbling man (as you mentioned) on an advert can influence a person's behaviour and alter their expectations of themselves in the short term. But of course adverts, films, music, music videos, magazines, and the bombardment of these images in popular culture, as well as the peer-pressure thus created, means that we are subjected to a constant stream of harmful stereotypes (which are being reinforced at every turn), and which put our identity under threat.

I sound like a true bleeding heart liberal here, which is not good for MY self-esteem, but the truth is you can't deny the huge scientific consensus in publication right now, and it is being expanded and fortified as I type.

[stlukesguild]

I always find it fascinating that people will accept the notion that the images presented in commercials and ads have this profound impact upon the individual and even influence their behavior... which would seem logical... otherwise corporations wouldn't be investing billions in these very advertisements... and yet when the issue of the impact of violence in film or tv or music or video-games is raised, there's an absolute denial of any link.:sosp:

Returning to the topic at hand... Neely simply seems to be suggesting... and perhaps not doing as good of a job of it as he is capable of... (Neely! lay off those Belgian Ales before posting!)... that women are no less attracted... first and foremost... by appearances than men. We are all visual beings and our visual perceptions are probably the first upon which we base our opinions of another person. A sense of humor, stellar personality, wit, intelligence, etc... these are all things that take a bit longer to discern. Neely suggested that perhaps women are being less than honest or kidding themselves when they suggest "kindness", "humor", "intelligence", and "eyes" as the first thing that attracts them. I somewhat concur. These may be important attributes... and in the long run more important than appearance... but are they really what first grabs your attention? I can't speak for others... but I suspect that some may indeed choose attributes other than the visual so as to not appear shallow (Perhaps men are more willing to appear like dogs... after all that's how we're often portrayed anyway.). I can't help but remember how Alex was taken to task as being inherently shallow and a bad person for admitting that his perceptions of a person are based first of all upon appearances... including dress.

I will also say, in Neely's favor, that it may be difficult not to imagine that something as "shallow" as material wealth is a major factor in sexual attraction... especially when one of the first questions many women will ask in the bar/nightclub situation is "So, what do you do?" This is followed with a clear recognition that answering "I'm a doctor" or "I'm a lawyer" or "I'm an investment banker" is far more likely to impress than declaring "I'm a school teacher" or "I'm unemployed at the moment". Of course, this could also be the result of the context. One might presume that women on the prowl for a wealthy husband may frequent the nightclubs more often than they hang out in the book stores, library, etc...

Most stereotypes have a degree of truth to them... which is why they arose in the first place. Both of my Asian studio-mates are quite good in math... having taken advanced classes in the subject. Their families... and those of a great many Asians... place the highest value upon education and absolute respect for educators. But ultimately such stereotypes may not represent anywhere near the majority of the group the purport to represent (women, Blacks, Asians, etc...). JBI dashed a great many illusions about the highly motivated Chinese with his observations of Chinese students during his stay in China. My Korean studio-mate, contrary to the stereotype of the passive Asian women, is a stay-at-home-husband in contrast to his physician wife... and contrary to the stereotype of women hunting for rich husbands, he consciously sought out a wealthy wife by scoping out the pool and gym at the university where many med-students worked out, with the full recognition of the fact that medical students are often so overworked that they have little or no social life. As sleazy as it sounds, it's worked out for him as they've been married over 15 years now,

[LitNetIsGreat]

{edit}


(Neely! lay off those Belgian Ales before posting!)

Ha, ha, I did have a few beers and it was not far off 2.00am, never a good idea you are correct.

As to your other points (I don't have time to answer fully or it will end up being 2.00am or something, but in short yes I agree with the bulk of your points). I also wonder if some people have merely picked out traits that they find attractive, as opposed to what first attracts. I still think there is a difference between what say and actually do though, in many situations too, not just with this topic - for both sexes. I'm still not buying the fact that looks don't feature strongly though no chance. (Did not one female poster mention workmen with tops off or something earlier too? Good sense of humour they had was it???) I like the parallel between this and Alex's fashion comments yes.

Anyway, apologies if my ramblings (astute observations) have offended 'the feminist crowd'. I must learn that there is just no arguing with women because they know best, all of the time, in all things...:hat: So as way of apology, I've found you something you should enjoy.:devil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTiBKjielhg&feature=relmfu

[papayahed]

At first I'm attracted to wavy hair, brown eyes (they're so soulful), and a guy's laugh. Certain musicians. Not necessarily famous guys but the lead singer of a local band and the guitar player of a rock a billy band are two of the sexy men I've ever seen. And hands, I like manly hands (and no I can't describe it) and proportionate wrists.

[Delta40]

are 'the feminist crowd' attracted to men?

[JuniperWoolf]

Neely suggested that perhaps women are being less than honest or kidding themselves when they suggest "kindness", "humor", "intelligence", and "eyes" as the first thing that attracts them.

First off I really need to get this straightened out: why do you two keep suggesting that eyeballs aren't physical? What else are they? Not many people have mentioned them anyway, at least not once we stack eyeball admiration up next to genital admiration.

Okay, moving on. I think if you read over the first page again, you'll see that this thread might have just gradually changed in the first page from "what initially attracts you" (the first post mentioned being largely physical) to "what do you desire in an optimum mate." It just altered course is all, as threads often do, before Neely jumped in.

Also, see Mutatis here:


I think a lot assumed, including me, that these polls about what initially attracted someone to the opposite sex were strictly about physicality, because that is what out initial attraction is based on. I guess for some it was implied that the question "What attracts you first" included a bit of conversation with that person, or something

I think he's right, some modicum of initial brief interaction was implied; otherwise Calidore wouldn't have included intangible qualities, unless he's implying rather that litnet is psychic.


I can't speak for others... but I suspect that some may indeed choose attributes other than the visual so as to not appear shallow (Perhaps men are more willing to appear like dogs... after all that's how we're often portrayed anyway.).

I think that both the men and women were unwilling to appear shallow, wasn't "smile" one of the first ones mentioned on the For Men thread? Also Charles said, regarding the physical vs. intangible:


I had to vote for both because they go hand-in-hand

Followed by almost no posts at all for weeks (except two about bottoms, but like I said the ladies and also Pip have been very open about their admiration of male genitals, so there you are). You might be forgetting, it was other men who berated Alex for being shallow (mostly Mark I think). In the original "Attraction" thread, the first three posts were by women and were physical, whereas the fourth and fifth were by men and were as follows:


If she's crazy, I'm usually attracted to her. I'm always drawn to the crazy ones. I don't know why.


Evidence of a brain..?

Intangibles. So, if Neely is using these threads to judge women as, on the whole, more self-deluded or less honest than men, he appears to be ignoring evidence to the contrary because he is biased as he takes this issue personally (as he noted above: "I personally care because this is actually an insult to all men who possess at least an element of kindness, humor and/or intelligence"); which, ironically, would make him deluded about delusion.


I will also say, in Neely's favor, that it may be difficult not to imagine that something as "shallow" as material wealth is a major factor in sexual attraction... especially when one of the first questions many women will ask in the bar/nightclub situation is "So, what do you do?" This is followed with a clear recognition that answering "I'm a doctor" or "I'm a lawyer" or "I'm an investment banker" is far more likely to impress than declaring "I'm a school teacher" or "I'm unemployed at the moment".

This is seen by a large chunk of women as one of the most humiliating female stereotypes and I like it that women argue against it, because I hope that it ceases to be so prevalent. Do you not see how devoid that notion is of pride for someone who works hard to develop themselves to hear someone say “women are attracted to big wallets?” The way we’re talked about, it’s like older men think we’re all schemers who are looking for a free ride. 61% of Canadian university graduates were female in 2007 (http://www42.statcan.gc.ca/smr08/2011/smr08_153_2011-eng.htm), there are more females with at least a bachelor's degree in my country than there are men. Top of the class was female for every class I've had except three.

I’m not saying there’s no such thing as a woman who is financially dependant on a man: I come from an old-school place, and many of the women who end up staying here marry miners or lumber workers, staying in the home, having babies, and they have to because the work in the mine and mill is VERY physically demanding even to most men, so they can't get jobs in the industry (there are a lot of married couples who both work at the prison though). I just don’t see why all women should live with the stereotype that they’re seeking to be financially dependant on a man when the number of women who actually are financially dependant on men are in the minority (only 7% of Canadian women are unemployed (http://www42.statcan.gc.ca/smr08/2011/smr08_153_2011-eng.htm)). So if it isn't true for the majority (whereas for example Japan really does score higher in math), then why does the stereotype persist?

"What do you do" is how people are weighed and measured in modern society, it's how you frame someone's identity and worth in your mind when you meet them. It's not fair to blame that whole trend on women.


Did not one female poster mention workmen with tops off or something earlier too? Good sense of humour they had was it???

That was me. Once again, although a woman’s brain might be small, we are capable of being attracted to the abdomen of one man if that’s what is visible at the time and the humor of another during a completely separate encounter.


Anyway, apologies if my ramblings (astute observations) have offended 'the feminist crowd'. I must learn that there is just no arguing with women because they know best, all of the time, in all things...:hat: So as way of apology, I've found you something you should enjoy.:devil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTiBKjielhg&feature=relmfu

Haha, that was a very smooth final barb and swift exit. Not obvious at all, your pride must be thoroughly intact.

[Scheherazade]

I cannot help but wonder whether the term "attraction" is causing a little confusion as well.

I take the term to mean the strong liking encouraging one to find out more about someone else. It is possible to look at a guy or a girl and acknowledge that they have nice hair, eyes, smile or body but those in themselves do not make me decide that they would be worthwhile -from my point of view- to get to know.

Someone who shows signs of intelligence and of similar interests is more likely to make me take a double take and encourage to find out more about him. And, for me, that is what attraction is.

As a side note, one thing that is surely not attractive is contempt shown towards modern women in these threads; labeling them "superficial" or "dishonest" simply because they can differentiate between "Such lovely eyes" and "Please, please, please talk to me!"

I feel I should not go into "wallet-hunters" business at all as it already rather embarrassing for the guys here even to have made such immature claims. Well, for most of them at least.

For others, it is nothing less than expected.

[papayahed]

Someone who shows signs of intelligence and of similar interests is more likely to make me take a double take and encourage to find out more about him. And, for me, that is what attraction is.


oh absolutely, a guy could have the waviest hair in the world but that goes out the window if his hobby turns out to be kicking puppies and knocking old people over.

[Scheherazade]

oh absolutely, a guy could have the waviest hair in the world but that goes out the window if his hobby turns out to be kicking puppies and knocking old people over.Oh, I am sure you can overlook those if his wallet is full enough!

[papayahed]

Oh, I am sure you can overlook those if his wallet is full enough!

Absolutely! I mean I only spent 5 years getting a degree. I've worked hard to make a name for myself in my field. I have security and independence. The minute I get my claws into a fat wallet I get to give all that up!!!!:cheers2: whooo hooo!!:sosp:

[cacian]

Oh, I am sure you can overlook those if his wallet is full enough!

Humm.....about money it may buy happiness but it does not buy beauty or attractiveness and that is when money is truly powerless.:)

[Emil Miller]

Humm.....about money it may buy happiness but it does not buy beauty or attractiveness and that is when money is truly powerless.:)

I'm wondering why so much money is spent on surgical beautification which seems to be becoming a major industry.

[cacian]

I'm wondering why so much money is spent on surgical beautification which seems to be becoming a major industry.
Of course I did think of surgical beautification but one can only play with what they already have.
I have yet to see someone that achieve natural beauty after plastic surgeries. The more you plastify and the more fake and horrifying the face looks.That is from what I have seen and that is my opinion.
I can tell straight away that someone has had botox, lifting you name it and it is glaringly distracting.
This process of beautification does not make any one less or more attractive from when they began.In fact it makes them less natural.
I must add however that this exclude individuals who have had disfigurations of any kind because their case is very different and yes in this instance I admit that beautification has had a positive and life changing experiences.

[Emil Miller]

Of course I did think of surgical beautification but one can only play with what they already have.
I have yet to see someone that achieve natural beauty after plastic surgeries. The more you plastify and the more fake and horrifying the face looks.That is from what I have seen and that is my opinion.
I can tell straight away that someone has had botox, lifting you name it and it is glaringly distracting.
This process of beautification does not make any one less or more attractive from when they began.In fact it makes them less natural.


However, if you are right, why do so many people undergo the trauma and expense of this service?

[Darcy88]

Has it occurred to you Neely that heaps of women out there don't even have their radar on? That they're not even looking for a guy so when it does switch on its because of some guy that has finally penetrated through to them and it wasn't because of his alpha male characteristics, fame or money? I honestly don't know how you're limiting women - whether by age, demographics or what but you're doing a great job at stereotyping women across the board and Juniperwoolf's point about generalisations was well made.

You are right. Heaps of women are not looking for men. Heaps of women have been burned by guys who treat them awfully and as a result carefully guard their hearts and fear falling in love. These are the ones who have the potential to really crush a man. If you fall in love with one of these you are in for a rough time. It happened to me once long ago and I still sometimes feel a great sadness over it.

[cacian]

However, if you are right, why do so many people undergo the trauma and expense of this service?

well there are many reasons why people do and that is I am sure a very good reason to them.
There are all sorts of motifs to why people do what they do.
One could be that they were bullied about their looks when they were young and so as a feel good factor they entertain the idea of surgery to erase those memories. Those people were not necessarily unpleasant looking but because of the trauma they were put under when they were young made them opt out for surgery because they really believe what the bullies told them about their looks.
Another reason could be that they are the victims of glossy magazines and media that make them believe that unless they achieve the perfect look a model type of look , a barbie look for example, then they are no good.
I personally call it media bullying towards people. Media is devisive and uses images to upset you and tell you that you ought to look like a designer picture. Beauty by design if you like.
Many people already feel that they have to conform to what the TV and the celebrity tag seek out to sell. It is this constant bubble of images with flauless sking and skinny bodies almost inanimate looking which are bombarded with day in day out. We all know deep down this is just a work of fiction, a type realityanime if you like, unatainable if not impossible task.
IT just like fashism an idealism dictated by the media with constand computer generated images that is very deceiving and achieves nothing but unhappiness.
I think we are now at stage were we are surrounded with plastic beauty on a plate feelings put aside. Just cold looking faces more and more botoxed and lifted it is almost scary. I call it the empty look. There is nothing human about it.
I mean you are to disagree with me but that is how I feel about it.
One has to also add that plastic surgery is highly addictive and apparently once you start you cannot stop it is almost junky like feeling about it. I do not like needles and knives and that is plastic surgery is all about and of course ultimately money whihc goes without saying.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I’ve been reading a couple of articles today on why women are attracted for the bad boy alpha male types. It would be interesting to hear what others think about any of the points raised in any of them – especially those people criticising me. Here’s one for example:



From a Darwinian point of view, females are the choosier sex, and males compete for their attention. The result of this competition is that men have evolved strategies such as seeking alpha status.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200901/neanderthink-the-appeal-the-bad-boy


For me this is just a dash of common sense – females have to be the choosier sex evolutionary speaking, as they have less reproduction potential in comparison to men. It might be worth pointing out though that if women were really attracted primarily to humour, intelligence and politeness why men, some men, adopt alpha male strategies to beat the competition! Could it simply be that women are attracted to alpha male characteristics? Or is this article just misogynist propaganda?

Cont…



The more likely a relationship is to be fleeting, the more likely a woman is to seek a man with high quality genes. Evolutionary psychologists define "good genes" for men as high-testosterone-fueled masculinity, symmetry, height, and, believe it or not, parasite resistance. Men who are blessed with these qualities tend to be confident and dominant. And able to get away with roguish behavior.

It's not all a positive for them, since they are also more prone to taking risks and getting into fights and accidents. Still, they offer a primal appeal that would have been advantageous in the ancestral setting—fighting skills, passion, lust for the damsel.

"Women intuitively get attracted to brave acts of altruism more than to altruism per se," says Daniel Kruger of the University of Michigan, principal author of a study on "dads and cads." "A distinction between long-term and short-term relationships is important for understanding women's partner choices." A love of boldness helps women find strong males as mates. Secretly they harbor the fantasy of turning their genetically gifted cads into loving dads who stick around long-term, long enough to help raise the kids. Think Warren Beatty and Keith Richards; fairy tales sometimes come true.

But wait; don't all women want a kind, understanding guy? Of course; it's just that nice isn't a high-caliber turn-on in the short term, unlike bravado. Says Kruger, "Women want their emotions activated." And audacity grabs attention, even if only in the service of marshaling good genes.

A clue to female psychology emerges in a study examining the cheesy best sellers that set millions of women on a Harlequin high. The male protagonists are invariably studs on steeds who morph into devoted dads by novel's end. That is, the women get the best of both worlds.


One point raised here for me would be the difference between short and long term relationships. This is something not taken into account with the poll I don’t think. You’d think that there wouldn’t be a difference – that you would be attracted to who you are attracted to, but apparently there is room for different markets.

That second point is also interesting to me is the ideal of 'domesticating the bad boy.' This is something that is oft repeated I find. Personally it reminds of Cecily in 'The Importance of Being Earnest' who is attracted bad boy Algernon (before she has even met him!) who in turn uses that image in winning her affection, he says “I want you to reform me. You might make that your mission, if you don't mind, cousin Cecily.” Although Cecily can give as good as she gets replying - ‘I'm afraid I've no time, this afternoon’ she still clearly fantasied and fantasies about him in order to escape her rather dull and conservative upbringing, to bring a little excitement to her life.

I guess the main point in bringing up this article to show that there is actually some logic behind the alpha male business and that it is not just me that has invented it.


In this article, which I remember hearing about before elsewhere ages ago, it suggests that what women find attractive actually changes during ovulation. (This unnerves me.) This is old news perhaps but it also supports the idea that, genetically speaking, that women are attracted to the alpha male types and hints at the reforming idea again.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120514134301.htm


Research from Kristina Durante, assistant professor of marketing at The University of Texas at San Antonio (UTSA) College of Business, finds that hormones associated with ovulation influence women's perceptions of men as potential fathers.

"Previous research has shown in the week near ovulation women become attracted to sexy, rebellious and handsome men like George Clooney or James Bond," said Durante. "But until now it was unclear why women would ever think it's wise to pursue long-term relationships with these kinds of men."

In the first study women viewed online dating profiles of either a sexy man or a reliable man during periods of both high and low fertility. Participants were asked to indicate the expected paternal contribution from the men if they had a child together based on how helpful the man would be caring for the baby, shopping for food, cooking and contributing to household chores. Near ovulation women thought that the sexy man would contribute more to these domestic duties.

"Under the hormonal influence of ovulation, women delude themselves into thinking that the sexy bad boys will become devoted partners and better dads," explained Durante. "When looking at the sexy cad through ovulation goggles, Mr. Wrong looked exactly like Mr. Right."

Interesting to notice the world ‘delude’ here, which is exactly the word I used before I was come down upon like a ton of bricks. It again suggests that there might be a difference between what woman say they like, in theory, like in a poll such as this, and in the heat of the moment. It concludes:


"While this psychological distortion could be setting some women up to choose partners who are better suited to be short-term mates, missing a mating opportunity with a sexy cad might be too costly for some women to pass up," said Durante. "After all, you never know if he could be the 'one'."


Yeah right! I’m sure he could be ‘reformed’, anyway…

This last paragraph also reminded me of something I once heard or read. (I definitely tried to bury it because it is too horrible.) This suggested that women are only too happy to mate with the ‘cad’ and marry the ‘dad’ (ouch awful phrases, but not mine...) Whether this was intentional or evolutionary I can’t remember, but it is just too horrible, even for an evil, sexist, misogynist like me, that just can’t be true can it?

On the whole though, there is plenty of stuff out there that support the point that women are attracted to the alpha male type, whether this is overt confidence or rugged good looks or something along those lines. It’s certainly not intelligence or politeness that’s for sure - in fact probably something quite opposite to politeness, certainly as first attractant.

[Scheherazade]

Does it occur to you guys that women might have noticed that humanity has ventured out of caves for while now and that how Alpha male is viewed has changed?

There is little need for 'hunters' and intelligence helps more in the way of survival these days.

[Helga]

Does it occur to you guys that women might have noticed that humanity has ventured out of caves for while now and that how Alpha male is viewed has changed?

There is little need for 'hunters' and intelligence helps more in the way of survival these days.

This is it I think. I have no need for a strong well built man, at the moment I just need someone who can connect my laptop and dvd to the tv.

[Emil Miller]

{edit}
As for the quoted articles, I was interested to discover that I'm an unreformed sexy cad but sorry to admit that I have never been a stud on a steed, although I did once go on a donkey ride when I was about three-years-old.
In all honesty, I have never worried about female ovulation or whether they want to reform a cad into a dad, or an Alpha male into a Beta male which is perhaps a better analogy. It seems to me that we should, through trial and error, go through relationships until we find someone who matches up to what we are looking for or at the end of the day simply give it up as bad job.

[papayahed]

This is it I think. I have no need for a strong well built man, at the moment I just need someone who can connect my laptop and dvd to the tv.

Right? I would love to have somebody to get up on the ladder to change the recessed light bulbs.

[stlukesguild]

This process of beautification does not make any one less or more attractive from when they began.In fact it makes them less natural.
I must add however that this exclude individuals who have had disfigurations of any kind because their case is very different and yes in this instance I admit that beautification has had a positive and life changing experiences.

Now this is surely contradictory. It seems you want it both ways. Plastic surgery does not make an individual look more attractive... except when it does make someone look more attractive?

SLG (quote)- I will also say, in Neely's favor, that it may be difficult not to imagine that something as "shallow" as material wealth is a major factor in sexual attraction... especially when one of the first questions many women will ask in the bar/nightclub situation is "So, what do you do?" This is followed with a clear recognition that answering "I'm a doctor" or "I'm a lawyer" or "I'm an investment banker" is far more likely to impress than declaring "I'm a school teacher" or "I'm unemployed at the moment".

JuniperWoolf- This is seen by a large chunk of women as one of the most humiliating female stereotypes and I like it that women argue against it, because I hope that it ceases to be so prevalent. Do you not see how devoid that notion is of pride for someone who works hard to develop themselves to hear someone say “women are attracted to big wallets?”

Did I say "All women...." or "Most women...?" You effectively misinterpret my comments by removing them from the context. For example... in the very next sentence after the above quote, I wrote:

Of course, this could also be the result of the context. One might presume that women on the prowl for a wealthy husband may frequent the nightclubs more often than they hang out in the book stores, library, etc...

I went on to suggest of stereotypes:

Most stereotypes have a degree of truth to them... which is why they arose in the first place... But ultimately such stereotypes may not represent anywhere near the majority of the group the purport to represent...

Now are you suggesting that there are not women who are not on the prowl for a wealthy husband and who willing trade their appearances in for gold? Where does the term "trophy wife" come from? Do you believe the following women were attracted to these men as a result of their baby blue eyes, kindness, and sense of humor?

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_f2ed0bf715d213e19b2162b2642eec2a.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=f2ed0bf715d213e19b2162b2642eec2a.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_c2a6bc5113d79da73230775de3263ddc.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=c2a6bc5113d79da73230775de3263ddc.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_4489914c548cd41f71d1a92e6e87d3c5.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=4489914c548cd41f71d1a92e6e87d3c5.jpg)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_86be0c3916a06dfc08a61f96e5ceab37.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/?action=view&current=86be0c3916a06dfc08a61f96e5ceab37.jpg)

The way we’re talked about, it’s like older men think we’re all schemers who are looking for a free ride.

No one has suggested any such thing. As I suggested above, Neely's experiences with women in bars scoping out a guy with a Mercedes of BMW may indeed have simply been the result of the context. None of the girls I dated were hunting for a rich husband... but pretty much all of the girls I dated I met at work or school or at a book store or art gallery... and not a nightclub.

61% of Canadian university graduates were female in 2007, there are more females with at least a bachelor's degree in my country than there are men. Top of the class was female for every class I've had except three.

So... you should have gone to school with me... because I was always the top student in my class.:D:yesnod:

"What do you do" is how people are weighed and measured in modern society, it's how you frame someone's identity and worth in your mind when you meet them. It's not fair to blame that whole trend on women.

Here, perhaps you are right. There is an unfortunate tendency by a great many to base their opinion on another person's worth... intelligence... even their motivation or lack thereof... upon their income.

Neely... have you ever come upon this article?

http://www.denisdutton.com/aesthetics_&_evolutionary_psychology.htm

It suggests that to a certain extent, even the arts may have initially evolved (a retain a certain residual element thereof) as a result of sexual selection and the desire to impress women.

Hey... I recall a certain light going on in my head :idea: back in high-school when a couple girls started to pay attention to me because of my ability to draw Tweety Bird and other cartoon characters. Of course, that's why I've kept at it all these years... fame, fortune, and all those art groupies!:p

[LitNetIsGreat]

Does it occur to you guys that women might have noticed that humanity has ventured out of caves for while now and that how Alpha male is viewed has changed?

There is little need for 'hunters' and intelligence helps more in the way of survival these days.

So you are saying that women are immediately attracted to intelligent looking men, not at all looks or any of the alpha male characteristics, but intelligence? So maybe men who read chemistry textbooks or advanced economics are seen as 'hot stuff'? This is what you are saying then yes?

http://rdcltci.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/brad_pitt.jpg
Not attractive?

http://www.dreamstime.com/man-with-glasses-reading-a-book-thumb21836757.jpg
Attractive?

:nonod:


Neely... have you ever come upon this article?

http://www.denisdutton.com/aesthetic...psychology.htm

I don't think so. I have bookmarked it thanks.

[Alexander III]

Does it occur to you guys that women might have noticed that humanity has ventured out of caves for while now and that how Alpha male is viewed has changed?

There is little need for 'hunters' and intelligence helps more in the way of survival these days.

Yep, you are right, we have changed; that is why men are no longer attracted to large breasts and curvy thighs, those are such primeval things, and I am glad to say we have moved beyond that. Alpha-male, Alpha-female-pshht - confidence is such a turn off.


Me: the gambler, the drunk, the reckless and the aloof, the man in love with himself and only himself, the one disinterested with the world and of an old and wealthy family. All these traits are such unbelievable turn-off's for women that I am thinking to make myself gay, as these are qualities which are better appreciated by men.

[Emil Miller]

So you are saying that women are immediately attracted to intelligent looking men, not at all looks or any of the alpha male characteristics, but intelligence? So maybe men who read chemistry textbooks or advanced economics are seen as 'hot stuff'? This is what you are saying then yes?



I think Scheherazade is looking for a guy who looks like the first picture but who is also into advanced economics.

[Helga]

So you are saying that women are immediately attracted to intelligent looking men, not at all looks or any of the alpha male characteristics, but intelligence? So maybe men who read chemistry textbooks or advanced economics are seen as 'hot stuff'? This is what you are saying then yes?





When I was 14 other girls made fun of me because 'charm' (what ever that is) to me were men like Woody Allen and Steve Buschemi. Today it's more Simon Pegg maybe but always the nerdy or odd guys. NEVER Brad Pitt!!

I'll admit I had a Viggo Mortensen phase but that was around LOTR, and he DID look good on a horse.

I think guys are just as self conscious about their looks as many girls are and they think girls want someone with a six pack on their body but really they want a six pack in the fridge.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I think Scheherazade is looking for a guy who looks like the first picture but who is also into advanced economics.

:lol: Yes that's probably the case. Women start with such high expectations (or hopes) and in the end are inevitably disappointed.

[Darcy88]

I think of it like the woman wants her man to be a beta before her but an alpha towards everyone else, just like a man wants his wife to be dirty with him but a prude towards all other guys. Its what I've noticed in my relationship experience. Fights happen when both act alpha towards the other and neither wants to be a beta.

This is why respect is so vital to a healthy relationship. If the man acts like a beta towards the rest of the world then his woman will act like an alpha ALL THE TIME, even when its just the two of them in private.

And if the man does not respect the woman in private, is alpha on her all the time, then her self-esteem will go down and the relationship will become poisonous for her.

Its a pain in the butt trying to navigate this horrendously complicated dating world. I prefer to abstain from it. Its the most stressful thing, dating, for me at least.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

This is seen by a large chunk of women as one of the most humiliating female stereotypes and I like it that women argue against it, because I hope that it ceases to be so prevalent. Do you not see how devoid that notion is of pride for someone who works hard to develop themselves to hear someone say “women are attracted to big wallets?” The way we’re talked about, it’s like older men think we’re all schemers who are looking for a free ride. 61% of Canadian university graduates were female in 2007 (http://www42.statcan.gc.ca/smr08/2011/smr08_153_2011-eng.htm), there are more females with at least a bachelor's degree in my country than there are men. Top of the class was female for every class I've had except three.

I’m not saying there’s no such thing as a woman who is financially dependant on a man: I come from an old-school place, and many of the women who end up staying here marry miners or lumber workers, staying in the home, having babies, and they have to because the work in the mine and mill is VERY physically demanding even to most men, so they can't get jobs in the industry (there are a lot of married couples who both work at the prison though). I just don’t see why all women should live with the stereotype that they’re seeking to be financially dependant on a man when the number of women who actually are financially dependant on men are in the minority (only 7% of Canadian women are unemployed (http://www42.statcan.gc.ca/smr08/2011/smr08_153_2011-eng.htm)). So if it isn't true for the majority (whereas for example Japan really does score higher in math), then why does the stereotype persist?
I actually agree that most women don't care too much about how much money a man makes. I know plenty of women who are in relationships with unemployed, alcoholic bums--goes into the whole "women date jerks" idea.

Does it occur to you guys that women might have noticed that humanity has ventured out of caves for while now and that how Alpha male is viewed has changed?

There is little need for 'hunters' and intelligence helps more in the way of survival these days.
So looks don't matter at all, huh? You're above all that? Sure, Scher, sure you are. :rolleyes5:

I think Scheherazade is looking for a guy who looks like the first picture but who is also into advanced economics.
I'm coming to believe that nothing matters at all: some women are just so gosh darned open minded they don't have any standards at all!



I don't get why there's all this backlash against the idea of women wanting to date an alpha-male, which, to me, doesn't mean the same thing as dating a jerk. Why wouldn't women want to be with the alpha male? Why are some arguing so vehemently that you'll go out with someone not on top of the metaphorical food chain? I think you'd be better of just saying, "You're right, Neely, we do go out with the alpha-males. Deal with it."

[Delta40]

How about, 'We're complicated' instead?

[Scheherazade]

I am thinking to make myself gay, as these are qualities which are better appreciated by men.On behalf of female population all over the world, thank you.

I think Scheherazade is looking for a guy who looks like the first picture but who is also into advanced economics.


:lol: Yes that's probably the case. Women start with such high expectations (or hopes) and in the end are inevitably disappointed.Sorry to disappoint, guys.

Scheherazade is not looking for anything or anyone anymore.

I am quite surprised that this issue is rather confusing to you. Is Brad Pitt goodlooking? Yes. Do I feel tempted to get to know someone looking like him? No. Unless he is carrying that promised Chemistry textbooks, that is.

[Emil Miller]

:lol: Yes that's probably the case. Women start with such high expectations (or hopes) and in the end are inevitably disappointed.

True, but we all have to make compromises. It's a bitter pill to swallow but it's in the nature of things that the ideal is unattainable. This isn't the thread to mention it, but it's this that makes The Great Gatsby the important literary work that it is.

[Scheherazade]

So looks don't matter at all, huh? You're above all that? Sure, Scher, sure you are. :rolleyes5:You're wrong, MM. We do not go out with the alpha-males. Deal with it.


I'm coming to believe that nothing matters at all: some women are just so gosh darned open minded they don't have any standards at all!I am not sure why this "superiority" angle is. All we are saying is that we find different things attractive.

Seems like most men have a chip on their shoulders because they do not like Brad Pitt or is not as rich as Bill Gates.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, I think it's pretty stupid if you're not looking for an alpha male. Why would you want someone not attractive, not charismatic, and not successful? I admit it--I was *****ing before because I'm not those things.

Anyways, maybe you don't date alpha males, but you can't speak for all women, not matter how highly you value your own thoughts and opinions.

And you don't play the superior angle at all...




For others, it is nothing less than expected.

[Delta40]

Anyways, maybe you don't date alpha males, but you can't speak for all women, not matter how highly you value your own thoughts and opinions.

You're perfectly right Mutatis and I guess men simply cannot speak for all women's preferences either.

[KCurtis]

First off I really need to get this straightened out: why do you two keep suggesting that eyeballs aren't physical? What else are they? Not many people have mentioned them anyway, at least not once we stack eyeball admiration up next to genital admiration.


:rofl: :lol: this is hysterically funny.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Seems like most men have a chip on their shoulders because they do not like Brad Pitt or is not as rich as Bill Gates.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder for these reasons. I am just a little tired of the pretence of you 'women folk' at being attracted to more 'noble' attributes when the evidence, and common sense, seems to point otherwise. This is generally speaking of course, but still it is a bit silly, so come clean now.

And anyway, I have been told that I look a little like Brad Pitt by two different people at different times. True, one of them was my friend and the other was drunk, but I'll take the compliment nonetheless. Also, who the hell wouldn't want Bill Gates' cash anyway or is this something that your sex don't like as well? Are you above money as well as looks?

[Scheherazade]

Anyways, maybe you don't date alpha males, but you can't speak for all women, not matter how highly you value your own thoughts and opinions.Obviously not so highly to claim to know what men think or prefer better than they do... Nor to call their opinions "stupid".


And you don't play the superior angle at all...I'd strongly urge you to re-read my post. That comment was directed at those who label women as "fortune-hunters" or "trophy-wife wannabes".


Also, who the hell wouldn't want Bill Gates' cash anyway or is this something that your sex don't like as well? Are you above money as well as looks?I have no problem with people having money (inluding myself). It is just that it is not one of the things I would like to take into consideration while determining how "attractive" someone is (or not).

At this point, I don't think I have any more to say on this issue.

Have fun.

[Babyguile]

I don't even know what alpha male means in this day and age. When I hear the term I think of someone who's an obnoxious twat and needs to be brought down a peg or two. But then the term 'alpha male' itself seems to be nothing but a stereotype.

There exists many a guy who makes a respectable amount of income but does not rely on it to get dates, and someone who is attractive to look at but not 'metrosexual' and overbearing. This is obviously more people's ideal partner.

What about alpha females? Would anyone find them ideal partners? Women DO earn their own money these days and there's probably (since I still don't know what the term means) plenty of them around.

[tonywalt]

Sorry Babyguile. I fully believe that you may not not know what alpha male means in this day and age. But I can give strict assurances, along with every guy seriously and honestly responding in this point, the very vast majority of women inherently know what it means.

Men(and women) have to live and breathe the selection process, and we all know inside how it works. A million years of hard wired evolutionary traits that exist in the very vast majority of humans does not flip in 30 years.

Even feminists like Jane Fonda marry very strong alpha males. Roger Vadim, Tom Hayden(very alpha, despite his political views), and a quintessential alpha - Ted Turner.

Now try this: Try to get Jane Fonda to admit that she is attracted to Alpha Males, powerful men, Tough and Aggressive men. She will Never Ever say that, rather she would state something along what your saying. I'm sure her memoirs (she has written quite a bit) would/might say something along those lines.

Always look at what people do, not what they say they do.

[papayahed]

Even feminists like Jane Fonda marry very strong alpha males. Roger Vadim, Tom Hayden(very alpha, despite his political views), and a quintessential alpha - Ted Turner.

Now try this: Try to get Jane Fonda to admit that she is attracted to Alpha Males, powerful men, Tough and Aggressive men. She will Never Ever say that, rather she would state something along what your saying. I'm sure her memoirs (she has written quite a bit) would/might say something along those lines.


Actually she did admit to marrying strong men (and divorced them as well). Check out an interview between Jane Fonda and Kathy Griffen in which they discuss.

Why is this such a black and white issue for men? I like strong men. I like handsome men. However that isn't the be all and end all to the relationship. Compatiablity and likeability trumps all in my world.

Yeah, I might be attracted to the prettiest man in the bar, however if we can't talk about Star Wars or we can't make each other laugh then we aren't going to get very far.

[Revolte]

There is nothing Alpha about "though" aggressive men. Have you ever come across any? They are wusses. I've ticked off a few of those, by not obeying their command... It's hard not to laugh at them, and they really aren't as tough as they pretend to be. Not to mention how stupid they are, it's like taking on a half dead inflatable flailing arm man.

They also seem to be the kind of people who slap their ladies around. Oh yea, totally hot...

[tonywalt]

You are 100 % spot on.

What you described are clearly insecure Beta males who use agressive displays in order to be seen as Alpha. A real Alpha is by defintion in the social animals world - the individuals in the community with the highest rank. Where only certain males and females fulfill this role. Guys who back down or act like wusses or act like half dead inflatible men would not attract women of any quality nor any quantity of women - therefore are not Alpha.

That's just common sense.

But it is good that you are able to spot insecure people and you describe them to a T- it's a good ability.

[cacian]

can anyone please explain what this Alpha is all about?
I truly find the whole word irritating when combined with the word male. I am sure the Greeks inventor of the alpha word won't be happy to have it associated with a gender.
In fact this whole alphamism reminds of the men are from mars and women from venus.
Sorry!! when I first saw that I nearly cried of laughter it was that ridiculous.
I am a firm believer that both men and women have a common ground and a different side but all the same are equal in abilities and thinking.

[tonywalt]

can anyone please explain what this Alpha is all about?

The individuals in the community with the highest rank. Where only certain males and females fulfill this role


I truly find the whole word irritating when combined with the word male. I am sure the Greeks inventor of the alpha word won't be happy to have it associated with a gender.

I did not research into the Greek origin, but I find it very interesting - thanks for pointing it out. It meant the first letter in the alphabet - so the word evolved from first to mean the top. I suppose if you do not like the word or the natural evolution over time and languages - I dunno what to say. I don't like alot of words, but to wipe them out of the dictionary or usage is not the sort of censorship I would support. Would you?


In fact this whole alphamism reminds of the men are from mars and women from venus.

Fair enough- sounds like a reasonable reference.



Sorry!! when I first saw that I nearly cried of laughter it was that ridiculous.

Ok.

I am a firm believer that both men and women have a common ground and a different side but all the same are equal in abilities and thinking.

We do have common ground, alot of common ground What does men and women being equal in abilities and thinking mean? We as individuals are not equal in abilites and thinking.

[Babyguile]

I'm beginning to think this whole 'alpha' male thing is a myth made up by other men. I've never ever heard a woman use the term in describing a male for as long as I have lived on this earth. It's just a term men have created in order to describe certain men they admire, and then make idols out of them e.g. such as stars from stage and screen, which are necessarily mythical and fantasized. John Wayne, Clint Eastwood. Am I getting close? How about Bruce Lee? This idea of a man with indestructable resolution and an uncompromising fortitude; who will never cry or lose his cool over a woman, and knows how to act in any and all situations. Smells fishy to me.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I'm beginning to think this whole 'alpha' male thing is a myth made up by other men. I've never ever heard a woman use the term in describing a male for as long as I have lived on this earth. It's just a term men have created in order to describe certain men they admire, and then make idols out of them e.g. such as stars from stage and screen, which are necessarily mythical and fantasized. John Wayne, Clint Eastwood. Am I getting close? How about Bruce Lee? This idea of a man with indestructable resolution and an uncompromising fortitude; who will never cry or lose his cool over a woman, and knows how to act in any and all situations. Smells fishy to me.

You might not be familiar with the concept, but yet I bet you could spot one in a second.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-alpha-male.htm


In human societies alpha male can mean very different things. Some use the term to mean the guy who seems most at ease with women and can essentially marry or date any woman of his choice. In this sense the alpha male is often good-looking, has a great build, and may have a relatively high socioeconomic status...

In adult social settings, alpha males again may be judged not so much by aggression, but by their ability to get the most attractive women as mates. This is the primary reason for alpha behavior in other animals...

In work settings, the alpha male may be a natural leader, exuding confidence. But he also may be contentious, demanding and difficult to work with. This is thought to be in part due to the alpha male attempting to retain his stature, however unconsciously, as alpha. Being the top salesperson, the quickest worker, the most aggressive boss may contribute to remaining at the top, and the alpha male has a tendency to respond aggressively to any attempts by others to outshine him.

The alpha male in adult society is likely to be confident, attractive, and wealthy. Questions remain as to whether the alpha male can retain mates, since relationships often require ability to compromise, to discuss feelings and to be sensitive. Some alpha males have these characteristics typically thought of as beta, but many of them lack such traits. You can certainly point to prominent alpha males in our society who seem to have poor track records with women, either involving themselves in a succession of failed relationships or marrying one woman after another, with no marriage lasting for very long.

[Darcy88]

Aren't intellectuals, like Orwell and Hitchens, the ultimate alphas? Tell me if I am mistaken, but unless you are really into athletics or womanizing, it seems the ultimate expressions of one's alpha male dominance are in the realm of the mind, in debate.

The brain is the ultimate weapon, the most powerful feature of modern man. Women see a guy with a good head on his shoulders and this turns them on, on a surface and on an instinctual level.

To me its all about instincts. Charm is mostly cerebral. The best way to impress a woman is to charm her. Dancing is good too but I find there are a lot of women who are too self-conscious to dance and will only do so if they are drunk.

Which brings me to something I should express my annoyance at. The oversexualization of dance. Dance is not just a sex thing, its a fun thing. I go dance in a bar and I have these bleach-blonde tanning-bed-addicted Oompa Lumpas getting all over me when I really just want to dance. What is with that? Such things are supposed to be done in a bedroom or the backseat of a car, not on a dance floor in front of complete strangers.

I need a time machine. 12th century Ireland is where I belong. Any time God, any time......

[cacian]

[QUOTE=cacian;1155379]can anyone please explain what this Alpha is all about?

The individuals in the community with the highest rank. Where only certain males and females fulfill this role



I did not research into the Greek origin, but I find it very interesting - thanks for pointing it out. It meant the first letter in the alphabet - so the word evolved from first to mean the top. I suppose if you do not like the word or the natural evolution over time and languages - I dunno what to say. I don't like alot of words, but to wipe them out of the dictionary or usage is not the sort of censorship I would support. Would you?



Fair enough- sounds like a reasonable reference.

]

We do have common ground, alot of common ground What does men and women being equal in abilities and thinking mean? We as individuals are not equal in abilites and thinking.

Women and men behave and think in the exact same way. It might not be the same words we use but we sure have the same needs the same feelings and we both are attracted to each other one way or another and so we must have lots in common.
''birds of the same feather flock together'' and so yes we very similar and like the company of each other so we must have many similarities and differences too.

[tonywalt]

Thanks Neely for that very good description of the meaning.

Darcy, definitely. It is largely determined by intelligence, it's not determined by the physicality of the guy.

I think what the girls on the thread are saying, and I fully agree, is that they do not like the concept or idea. Yea, it's an unattractive and unfair reality - but it's a reality.
I do not like War, but humans will give into base instinct and behauvior and have wars and conflicts - it's just the way it is or not. It's fishy. I'm not sure I buy it - and I definitely don't want it.


This idea of a man with indestructable resolution and an uncompromising fortitude; who will never cry or lose his cool over a woman, and knows how to act in any and all situations. \

I fully agree. An alpha would have to compromise at times to remain Alpha. And they have to be able to emote - otherwise women will not be attracted to them.

Societal Markers of an alpha male are the culturally derirable consequences of high testosterone males. Women have been socially conditioned to find these qualities important, since they signify a man’s ability to provide and support during the vulnerable stage of pregnacy and raising a dependent young. It consists in broad description of Power, relative wealth-but not a rule, as potential is just as powerful, Status

The Catch-22, however, is that the men who have been able to acquire the power, wealth, and status due to the interplay of their physiology and socioeconomic factors (education, good upbringing) are also the ones who seem to be more likely to display less commitement to use these resources for a long term partnership and parental investment.

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE=tonywalt;1155386]

Women and men behave and think in the exact same way.

I'm afraid that they don't. Men are attuned to the quick conquest whereas women are looking for the long term. This is the basis for the war between the sexes.

[tonywalt]

[QUOTE=tonywalt;1155386]

Women and men behave and think in the exact same way. It might not be the same words we use but we sure have the same needs the same feelings and we both are attracted to each other one way or another and so we must have lots in common.
''birds of the same feather flock together'' and so yes we very similar and like the company of each other so we must have many similarities and differences too.

Men and women have an awful lot of similarities, but we do not act in the "same exact way". This sort of idealism that spawned in certian social movements in the 60's and 70's is very very well meaning and I absolutely agree motivation behind the movement(s) - equal opportunities. No exceptions. Always.

The rhetoric gets too dreamily idealistic and filled with bubblegum soundbites. I base my beliefs on reality and try to mix in my kinder gentler dispostion the best I can.

If you want to know what an Alpha male is like, I can send you a couple - they are in the Corner Offices of the building I am in. And they are decidedly and perfectly charming with women(and men for that matter) and not anything like John Wayne or Clint Eastwood. But to underestimate their Ambitions would be incorrect.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I'm beginning to think this whole 'alpha' male thing is a myth made up by other men. I've never ever heard a woman use the term in describing a male for as long as I have lived on this earth. It's just a term men have created in order to describe certain men they admire, and then make idols out of them e.g. such as stars from stage and screen, which are necessarily mythical and fantasized. John Wayne, Clint Eastwood. Am I getting close? How about Bruce Lee? This idea of a man with indestructable resolution and an uncompromising fortitude; who will never cry or lose his cool over a woman, and knows how to act in any and all situations. Smells fishy to me.

So, because something is not explicitly named in everyday conversation, that thing doesn't exist?

[tonywalt]

Christopher Hitchens would qualify as Alpha. I was thinking of guys who qualify as Alpha, but do not conform to the jock or physically tough guy.

Colin Firth qualifies, again brainy, cultured, and not conforming to John Wayne type. Alpha, and that is with or even without fame.

Marlon Brando, although externally athletic, was intellectual. He is a stretch and not a great choice, but could easily fit in on this forum.

Russell Brand. Controversial, and perhaps disliked by a big block of both men and women. Definitely not in the dumb jock camp but complex etc. qualifies as Alpha with or without fame.

Che Guevara. Watch this video(first bit is silent with his plane landing, then audio kicks in), Che is talking politics, but if you watch how he 'carries himself', his eye contact, his presentation, Humour and Intelligence. Politics aside. It's probably the best example or a damn good one on charisma and what an Alpha looks and acts like in this type of situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMkoLLeng6A Intellect of highest order. Bookish-voracious reader. Introspective. Alpha.

I could go on and on and many may come back and point out which (or all) of the above guys they hate (or all) , and why, and etc.. - but that's not the point. I am merely trying to point out males who do not conform to the overtly masculine type. And I cover the full and very wide spectrum of personality and physical/personality types from Colin to Che.

Conclusion - All of the above would be very comfortable on this forum - not a doubt in my mind. And they all are cover the top three intelligence, humour and nice eyes!

[Darcy88]

Christopher Hitchens would qualify as Alpha. I was thinking of guys who qualify as Alpha, but do not conform to the jock or physically tough guy.

Colin Firth qualifies, again brainy, cultured, and not conforming to John Wayne type. Alpha, and that is with or even without fame.

Marlon Brando, although externally athletic, was intellectual. He is a stretch and not a great choice, but could easily fit in on this forum.

Russell Brand. Controversial, and perhaps disliked by a big block of both men and women. Definitely not in the dumb jock camp but complex etc. qualifies as Alpha with or without fame.

Che Guevara. Watch this video(first bit is silent with his plane landing, then audio kicks in), Che is talking politics, but if you watch how he 'carries himself', his eye contact, his presentation, Humour and Intelligence. Politics aside. It's probably the best example or a damn good one on charisma and what an Alpha looks and acts like in this type of situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMkoLLeng6A Alpha. Intellect of highest order. Bookish. Alpha.

I could go on and on and many may come back and point out which (or all) of the above guys they hate (or all) , and why, and etc.. - but that's not the point. I am merely trying to point out males who do not conform to the overtly masculine type. And I cover the full and very wide spectrum of personality and physical/personality types from Colin to Che.

Conclusion - All of the above would be very comfortable on this forum - not a doubt in my mind. And they all are cover the top three intelligence, humour and nice eyes!

I agree with everything you say. In fact one could just look at royalty to see examples of men who fulfill the alpha role without being crude about it. Look at Prince William. He is uber-alpha but he's not a cave man/thug.

[JuniperWoolf]

We do not go out with the alpha-males. Deal with it.

I think that "alpha male" is a stupid term (this isn't 50,000 BC, nor are we packs of dogs), but if the characteristics that describe an "alpha male" include strength of character, that's what I like.

It is a really stupid term though. You mean people are attracted to those who look good and aren't neurotic?!? Gasp, shock, and awe! We'd better find an evolutionary explination for such an otherwise unexplainable trend!

To account for the term itself, I think there's a strong element of romanticism it. It stirs images of primal society which is fun I guess, modern society is pretty dull. There's also the dissociation factor. If you can explain something in scientific terms, you can make human interaction like a mechanical system with parts and processes to be identified, which detatches you from the whole equation. Part A is Female, Part B is Alpha, Part C is Beta, and the parts interact like so, it's all so simple.


Anyways, maybe you don't date alpha males, but you can't speak for all women, not matter how highly you value your own thoughts and opinions.


You're perfectly right Mutatis and I guess men simply cannot speak for all women's preferences either.

Exactly, you guys get it. I hate it when I'm included in this big conglomerate of other people with whom all I have in common is my gender, like all women are part of a gigantic hive-mind. I value my sense of self, and stereotypes strip you of that. You're nothing, you're a "woman" and that's all of your identity. It's like a cage.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think that "alpha male" is a stupid term (this isn't 50,000 BC, nor are we packs of dogs), but if the characteristics that describe an "alpha male" include strength of character, that's what I like.

It is a really stupid term though. You mean people are attracted to those who look good and aren't neurotic?!? Gasp, shock, and awe! We'd better find an evolutionary explination for such an otherwise unexplainable trend!
.

EXACTLY. That's all I was trying to say in my last long post. Putting aside the inanity of the term "alpha male" (and I will use it since there's no better term I can think of, except I'll shorten it to just "alpha"), why wouldn't a woman want to date one labeled as such? Like I said, I was pretty much *****ing because, aside from intelligence, I fit no "alpha male" category. I don't have much money, I'm meek, and hell, I'm disabled, the latter of which is the complete antithesis of alpha-ness in any species.

Which is why I find a woman saying "I don't date alpha-males" funny. It'd be dumb not to. Does it mean one will marry an alpha? Of course not. A guy can be wealthy, intelligent, charismatic, and an a-hole all at the same time. This whole conversation began by asking what traits someone found initially attractive, i.e., what do you look for in a mate--if you're not looking for alpha qualities when you're doing that first inspection, well, I think you're being dumb. And since I can hear someone ask me, "Well, if that's true, how do non-alphas find mates?" I'd answer that there're a ton of ways relationships get started besides people looking to meet someone in a bar.

[tonywalt]

Fair enough, we can all easily drop the word Alpha, and replace it with "Men who generally attract a relatively high percentage of women ("Attractive Men"). It fits perfectly with the title of the thread. Done.

Again, Che Guevara's video is the best example of how an Attractive Man presents himself, makes Eye Contact, speaks, uses humour, body language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMkoLLeng6A

I am happy to hear the girls view? Juniper, Py, Helga, Cacian, Juniper, Scheherazade, Pensive, Babyguile?- would Che not be seen as generally attractive to a high percentage of females, who may or may not include yourself? As I hope I am better explaining what many, but not all women would describe as an attractive man

[Babyguile]

Why does it matter to you if this man or that particular man is found attractive by any of us? Why? This is an exercise in stereotpying. If Juniper or caican say they would fall at the feet of Che Guavera because they find him simply irresistable what would that prove? I'll find three women who aren't attracted to him.

Why come into a thread that was not made for you and berate female opinion? To discuss the bull**** concept of 'alpha males' is to partake in an exercise of stereotyping vast swathes of women. It is a concept I've never heard any female articulate and, coupled with the varied tastes in men that they evidently have, I think any further mention of 'alpha males' should be swiftly followed by a three month isolation in the Cold Ale Bloke's Thread.

Maybe we should have gender apartheid on this section of the forum then all the boys can use themselves to stroke their own egos like they usually do.

http://s16.postimage.org/cewfhazfp/arguecat.png (http://postimage.org/)

[prendrelemick]

^ Because it is absolutely fascinating. It's about Le Difference, a subject that engages us all.

[Alexander III]

Christopher Hitchens would qualify as Alpha. I was thinking of guys who qualify as Alpha, but do not conform to the jock or physically tough guy.

Colin Firth qualifies, again brainy, cultured, and not conforming to John Wayne type. Alpha, and that is with or even without fame.

Marlon Brando, although externally athletic, was intellectual. He is a stretch and not a great choice, but could easily fit in on this forum.

Russell Brand. Controversial, and perhaps disliked by a big block of both men and women. Definitely not in the dumb jock camp but complex etc. qualifies as Alpha with or without fame.

Che Guevara. Watch this video(first bit is silent with his plane landing, then audio kicks in), Che is talking politics, but if you watch how he 'carries himself', his eye contact, his presentation, Humour and Intelligence. Politics aside. It's probably the best example or a damn good one on charisma and what an Alpha looks and acts like in this type of situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMkoLLeng6A Intellect of highest order. Bookish-voracious reader. Introspective. Alpha.

I could go on and on and many may come back and point out which (or all) of the above guys they hate (or all) , and why, and etc.. - but that's not the point. I am merely trying to point out males who do not conform to the overtly masculine type. And I cover the full and very wide spectrum of personality and physical/personality types from Colin to Che.

Conclusion - All of the above would be very comfortable on this forum - not a doubt in my mind. And they all are cover the top three intelligence, humour and nice eyes!


Very finely put. Im surprised so many women don't know what an alpha male is and beta male is. In my mind however the epitome of the Alpha male is this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Charles_Louis_de_Lasalle


Also I think it is wrong to define an alpha male primarily by the fact that woman are attracted to him; as that is a by product of something else which is, charisma is too weak, so let me call it an aura, which has an effect upon all men around him. Merely being around this man changed the men and women around him, for better or worse. Sometimes everyone around him is filled with fear and substance other-times it is courage and virtue.

I always think of Odysseus as the proto Alpha. Not Homer's Odysseus but rather Dante's - where that intangible aura around him shows that the only thing more infectious than fear is true courage, and he has men who are willing to follow him to the end of the earth, not because he convinces them or because they simply trust him; but he is able to imbue in them the same passions which stir his heart and make every man around him into a god. Simply due to that intangible presence, like the stars in the night sky.

Of course Odysseus would be representative of the harmonious and virtuous alpha, there are many types as I have said before. The antithesis to Odysseus's Virtuous Alpha would be Milton's Satan, who possesses the same Alpha type as had Alexander The Great, to wit; the megalomaniac alpha. One need merle look at the similar results of the two's exploits and their effect on the men/angels around them at the beginning and at the end.

I have only talked of Male alpha's but in female society there is equally and alpha element. Amongst men it is more pronounced as men have more of a natural instinct for hierarchy, but simply because female alpha's are not as overt as male alpha's, do not think that there are none. They are there and every guy will know which girl is the alpha. Some famous Alphas from history here would be Cleopatra, or Queen Elizabeth I

In short an Alpha is the type of person whom once you meet, you never forget, because unlike everyone else, they do not deserve to be forgotten.

[Babyguile]

That is a very romantic view of history is it not? It says he snook behind enemy lines to sleep with an Austrian noblewoman. Is that supposed to be admirable?

No single man acts alone. Sure you can have people with good leadership and in those times, if you claimed a higher purpose, men would follow you absolutely (for a time), and men would follow men who followed you. Think of Joan of Arc.

Odysseus is fictional and romanticised. I don't get it.

[cacian]

^ Because it is absolutely fascinating. It's about Le Difference, a subject that engages us all.

Do you mean LA Difference?


Fair enough, we can all easily drop the word Alpha, and replace it with "Men who generally attract a relatively high percentage of women ("Attractive Men"). It fits perfectly with the title of the thread. Done.

Again, Che Guevara's video is the best example of how an Attractive Man presents himself, makes Eye Contact, speaks, uses humour, body language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMkoLLeng6A

I am happy to hear the girls view? Juniper, Py, Helga, Cacian, Juniper, Scheherazade, Pensive, Babyguile?- would Che not be seen as generally attractive to a high percentage of females, who may or may not include yourself? As I hope I am better explaining what many, but not all women would describe as an attractive man

Hi tonywalt just the name Che Guevara gives me the creeps sorry. Not my idea of attractive at all. NO
To be honest I never what's attractive until I see one. I now know attractive which for is mix of looks charms humour personality attitude and general feeling/aura niceness generosity and cooleness of the person.
I have never had a type in my head and I never relate to pictures or images or TV looks. I find them too fake almost plastic and so I am lucky I do not have crushes on people that removed from my immediat reality so I have to say I never understand people who have crushes or fancy people off a magasine or television .
An example of what I mean is Beiber fever what this is all about is beyond my logic. I do not understand it and it scares me to think that people can relate to fake.
An attractive man is beyond descriptions and words one has to live it and feel it and it gets better everyday every minute you are with them and that is attractiveness for me.

[Alexander III]

That is a very romantic view of history is it not? It says he snook behind enemy lines to sleep with an Austrian noblewoman. Is that supposed to be admirable?

Congratulations, you read the first paragraph. There is much more though. He is arguably one of the bravest men in history.


No single man acts alone. Sure you can have people with good leadership and in those times, if you claimed a higher purpose, men would follow you absolutely (for a time), and men would follow men who followed you. Think of Joan of Arc.

There is a difference between following you, and willing to die for you.


Odysseus is fictional and romanticised. I don't get it.

So something possesses no didactical value unless it is real?

[Emil Miller]

Do you mean LA Difference?

I think he means, la différence, but we shouldn't be too pedantic. :D

[cacian]

I think he means, la différence, but we shouldn't be too pedantic. :D

True true although very temptively that LA looks very much like Los Angeles but that's beside the point just felt like saying it.:)

[Babyguile]

Congratulations, you read the first paragraph. There is much more though. He is arguably one of the bravest men in history.

I don't think I've ever read a Wikipedia article from head-to-toe and I'd like to keep it that way. Also, I'm not the kind of person who trawls through the annals of history in order to find a hero I can look up to.


There is a difference between following you, and willing to die for you. So something possesses no didactical value unless it is real?

Didactical value? I'm asking you to prove to me that alpha males exist. Nobody would die for Colin Firth. Also it's utterly laughable that you used Odysseus as an example. What frame of mind where you in when you read about Odysseus from Dante and Homer? For example did you read The Odyssey because you had finished Lord of the Rings and wanted a good sword and sorcery tale to see you off to bed? :goof: If you want to know what the true function of Greek mythology was, and what the didactical motives of tales of Odysseus, Medea, Agamemnon, Heracles etc. were then read Women in Athenian Law and Life by Roger Just.

[papayahed]

Which is why I find a woman saying "I don't date alpha-males" funny. It'd be dumb not to. Does it mean one will marry an alpha? Of course not. A guy can be wealthy, intelligent, charismatic, and an a-hole all at the same time. This whole conversation began by asking what traits someone found initially attractive, i.e., what do you look for in a mate--if you're not looking for alpha qualities when you're doing that first inspection, well, I think you're being dumb. And since I can hear someone ask me, "Well, if that's true, how do non-alphas find mates?" I'd answer that there're a ton of ways relationships get started besides people looking to meet someone in a bar.

Hello????? How was that conclusion gotten to? At what point did any woman on here say "I don't date alpha males"? This thread is about what we are attracted too at first. What is absolutely perplexing, and what has started this crapstorm is that guys on this site have the audacity to tell me (and the rest of us) I'm wrong and that we are lying about what we find attractive.



Again, Che Guevara's video is the best example of how an Attractive Man presents himself, makes Eye Contact, speaks, uses humour, body language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMkoLLeng6A

I am happy to hear the girls view? Juniper, Py, Helga, Cacian, Juniper, Scheherazade, Pensive, Babyguile?- would Che not be seen as generally attractive to a high percentage of females, who may or may not include yourself? As I hope I am better explaining what many, but not all women would describe as an attractive man

Seriously? Che? Couldn't find anybody in this century?

Che is a cultural icon because of a picture, admitedly at first glance it's a cool picture but in all seriousness it says nothing about the man himself. Which is kinda been the point the last few pages. Yes there may be an initial attraction, but that isn't the end of it. You can't make a life on initial attraction. At first glance that's a cool picture but once you find out the actual living breathing man that picture isn't so cool anymore.


Why does it matter to you if this man or that particular man is found attractive by any of us? Why? This is an exercise in stereotpying. If Juniper or caican say they would fall at the feet of Che Guavera because they find him simply irresistable what would that prove? I'll find three women who aren't attracted to him.

Why come into a thread that was not made for you and berate female opinion? To discuss the bull**** concept of 'alpha males' is to partake in an exercise of stereotyping vast swathes of women. It is a concept I've never heard any female articulate and, coupled with the varied tastes in men that they evidently have, I think any further mention of 'alpha males' should be swiftly followed by a three month isolation in the Cold Ale Bloke's Thread.


Perplexing isn't?

[Alexander III]

I don't think I've ever read a Wikipedia article from head-to-toe and I'd like to keep it that way. Also, I'm not the kind of person who trawls through the annals of history in order to find a hero I can look up to.

1) We get it you don't like me.
2) I do spend various hours everyday reading pages from head -to-toe of wikipedia, and I fail to see what is wrong with that.
3)Hero to worship? Do you not understand history? When I look back at various historical figures and examine their lives it is not in pursuit of a hero to worship, as if they were some 21st century Justin Beibers, I find men who lead inspirational lives and remind one about the true potential of a human life. If anything it is a motivator, everyday because I know of these men I am pushed to not settle for mere existence but to go beyond the norm. With what dignity can I say I am tired or in pain when I exercise, when I recall to mind that Roosevelt got shot and before going to the hospital finished his speech. When anger takes hold of me and I would strike another, I remember the Marcus Aurelieus and Gahndi and how they tamed their harmfull passions. When I read of DeLassale who said that any hussar which lived past the age of 30 was a coward, or when he would as a general lead the charge with a pipe rather than a sword in his hand, how can I bring myself to fear death when I see in history so many men who isntead of falling to their knees smilled back at death like equalls. Great men of the past serve to remind us that though we are but the sustenance of worms, we posses the potential of the Gods.


Didactical value? I'm asking you to prove to me that alpha males exist.

Prove to you that alpha males exist? Now it all makes sense. First how you did not wish to specify your gender to Mutatis, and now this strange behavior of yours, it all makes sense, you are an alien sent to study the human race are you not? Ha! J'acsuse !


Nobody would die for Colin Firth.

I think it would have to do with him being an actor, and not a general or political rebel leader like Che Guevera. Nobody would have died for einstein either. That does not mean he was worthless, it means he was a scientist. Oh silly alien, how your deception falls when it becomes so apparent that you know so little of mankind.


Also it's utterly laughable that you used Odysseus as an example. What frame of mind where you in when you read about Odysseus from Dante and Homer? For example did you read The Odyssey because you had finished Lord of the Rings and wanted a good sword and sorcery tale to see you off to bed? :goof:

I actually got into Greek literature because the homo-erotic aspects of it made my little richard tingle and feel nice.


If you want to know what the true function of Greek mythology was, and what the didactical motives of tales of Odysseus, Medea, Agamemnon, Heracles etc. were then read Women in Athenian Law and Life by Roger Just.

Silly Alien, thinking that behind human religion and art there is function....silly alien, all art is useless.

[Babyguile]

History is not about reading buffed-up, heroicised Wikipedia articles about war generals but is in fact about identifying trends through time and theorizing over how one system leads to another. Did you forget, in your forays into the lives of these 'alpha males', that war is a vile thing? Be honest with yourself. If you study your history by looking only at the upper echelons of the society you miss the essence of those times. Your version of history is one that ignores the masses of peasant and laborour.


Hero to worship? Do you not understand history? When I look back at various historical figures and examine their lives it is not in pursuit of a hero to worship, as if they were some 21st century Justin Beibers, I find men who lead inspirational lives and remind one about the true potential of a human life. If anything it is a motivator, everyday because I know of these men I am pushed to not settle for mere existence but to go beyond the norm. With what dignity can I say I am tired or in pain when I exercise, when I recall to mind that Roosevelt got shot and before going to the hospital finished his speech. When anger takes hold of me and I would strike another, I remember the Marcus Aurelieus and Gahndi and how they tamed their harmfull passions. When I read of DeLassale who said that any hussar which lived past the age of 30 was a coward, or when he would as a general lead the charge with a pipe rather than a sword in his hand, how can I bring myself to fear death when I see in history so many men who isntead of falling to their knees smilled back at death like equalls. Great men of the past serve to remind us that though we are but the sustenance of worms, we posses the potential of the Gods.

Well, go on, repel that worm! I wish you every success in fulfilling your potential to be an alpha God and putting us all to shame for not fulfilling our own potentials. Keep reading your Wikipedia articles and one day you will become great like your idols!

http://s16.postimage.org/t3cbq64f9/emo_scene_hipster_im_going_to_change_the_world_w.j pg (http://postimage.org/)
http://s8.postimage.org/k1iy0cqz9/gaming_gopher_meme_generator_we_played_sonic_her.j pg (http://postimage.org/)

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Why does it matter to you if this man or that particular man is found attractive by any of us? Why? This is an exercise in stereotpying. If Juniper or caican say they would fall at the feet of Che Guavera because they find him simply irresistable what would that prove? I'll find three women who aren't attracted to him.

Why come into a thread that was not made for you and berate female opinion? To discuss the bull**** concept of 'alpha males' is to partake in an exercise of stereotyping vast swathes of women. It is a concept I've never heard any female articulate and, coupled with the varied tastes in men that they evidently have, I think any further mention of 'alpha males' should be swiftly followed by a three month isolation in the Cold Ale Bloke's Thread.

Maybe we should have gender apartheid on this section of the forum then all the boys can use themselves to stroke their own egos like they usually do.

http://s16.postimage.org/cewfhazfp/arguecat.png (http://postimage.org/)
Yeah, no stereotyping going on against men in this post.

And I think this is all quite weird for a guy to say. Maybe you're an ultra-feminist?

Hello????? How was that conclusion gotten to? At what point did any woman on here say "I don't date alpha males"? This thread is about what we are attracted too at first. What is absolutely perplexing, and what has started this crapstorm is that guys on this site have the audacity to tell me (and the rest of us) I'm wrong and that we are lying about what we find attractive.

Uhhhh, how about right here?


You're wrong, MM. We do not go out with the alpha-males. Deal with it.

I've made my points explicitly clear, even explained where I was coming from with my first "women hating" posts. I discussed how some of us may have been confused about how some were thinking initial attractiveness may only mean physical traits or personality traits. The idea that men shouldn't be allowed to make comments in here is simply stupid, especially since women have posted in the male counterpart to this thread, which no one seems to have a problem with. You're the one now being quite rude, but you're a mod, so I guess it's okay.

[tonywalt]

Hello????? How was that conclusion gotten to? At what point did any woman on here say "I don't date alpha males"? This thread is about what we are attracted too at first. What is absolutely perplexing, and what has started this crapstorm is that guys on this site have the audacity to tell me (and the rest of us) I'm wrong and that we are lying about what we find attractive.




Seriously? Che? Couldn't find anybody in this century?

Che is a cultural icon because of a picture, admitedly at first glance it's a cool picture but in all seriousness it says nothing about the man himself. Which is kinda been the point the last few pages. Yes there may be an initial attraction, but that isn't the end of it. You can't make a life on initial attraction. At first glance that's a cool picture but once you find out the actual living breathing man that picture isn't so cool anymore.



Perplexing isn't?'

It's easy PY. We are talking about Attraction not what is necessary to sustain a relationship. It's two entirely different things. What may initially attract me to someone is not the attributes that will sustain the relationship.

That's why people date for weeks/months and then it doesn't work out. Or other times the Attraction was not that strong, but the attributes to sustain a relationship was strong- a long term relationship.

[papayahed]

'

It's easy PY. We are talking about Attraction not what is necessary to sustain a relationship. It's two entirely different things. What may initially attract me to someone is not the attributes that will sustain the relationship.

That's why people date for weeks/months and then it doesn't work out. Or other times the Attraction was not that strong, but the attributes to sustain a relationship was strong- a long term relationship.

uh yeah, so why do you guys keep trying to tell us we are wrong when we give our opinion as to what we find attractive at first? That has been the point of contention from the beginning.

[papayahed]

Uhhhh, how about right here?


Let's look at the full context:


Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Does it occur to you guys that women might have noticed that humanity has ventured out of caves for while now and that how Alpha male is viewed has changed?

There is little need for 'hunters' and intelligence helps more in the way of survival these days.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis
So looks don't matter at all, huh? You're above all that? Sure, Scher, sure you are.


You're wrong, MM. We do not go out with the alpha-males. Deal with it.





I've made my points explicitly clear, even explained where I was coming from with my first "women hating" posts. I discussed how some of us may have been confused about how some were thinking initial attractiveness may only mean physical traits or personality traits. The idea that men shouldn't be allowed to make comments in here is simply stupid, especially since women have posted in the male counterpart to this thread, which no one seems to have a problem with. You're the one now being quite rude, but you're a mod, so I guess it's okay.

Rude? Can you quote me please?

[tonywalt]

uh yeah, so why do you guys keep trying to tell us we are wrong when we give our opinion as to what we find attractive at first? That has been the point of contention from the beginning.

I think you are right. I just say there is a certain Logic and Science to Attraction, and it's not purely Emotional reasons.

In the process of doing that I completed the sin of applying a logic and science to attraction - and I should know better.:nonod:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Let's look at the full context:











Rude? Can you quote me please?


Maybe you can explain how the context changes the fact that Scher said "We do not go out with alpha-males." You said no one said that. I showed that they did. Where's the context that nullifies that?

And, no, I'm not quoting or explaining anything in that regard. I'd rather not be baited into banishment, thanks.

[Alexander III]

History is not about reading buffed-up, heroicised Wikipedia articles about war generals but is in fact about identifying trends through time and theorizing over how one system leads to another.

Have I ever stated otherwise? Unless Gahndi was a warlord, I am not sure where you are going with this.


Did you forget, in your forays into the lives of these 'alpha males', that war is a vile thing?

Have your forgotten that the only reason you have a computer, and the internet, and are not illiterate has a lot to do with all the wars of Europe's past. Look at India and Africa, the average European has all the advantages over the average Indian or African not because our nations were smarter but because our nations were stronger. Yes war is ugly, but that ugliness and the deaths of thousands before us is the only reason you

1)have the technology and education to post on this board
2) have the right of free speech to say what you think
3) (if you are a woman) Have any rights at all (Nazis took away all political rights from women)


In Italy after the end of the war, everything to do with Fascism and Mussolini was seen as wrong and having nothing to do with Italy. The prevalent thought became that the war was fascisms war not Italy's. In Kefallonia 5000 Italians were executed by the Germans because, rather than acting like the cowards we Italians are, they choose to do their duty and serve their country. The bravery and sacrifice of these men is better know in America than Italy. In fact up until recently, the Italian government would not even acknowledge that these men were executed by the germans. Why does my nation choose to abandon the only men who did their duty and showed courage? Because we lost the war, so everything to do with the war was evil, the loyalty and bravery of these men was not loyalty and bravery because we lost the war. And it is for reasons like these that I detest my country at times, because zealotry is zealotry. Acknowledge that war is vile, yes - abandon the boys (because wars are fought by boys not men) and pretend that they never existed and that their death had nothing to do with their country, it is base. Yes war is vile, so vile that in europe and America poverty is linked to obesity while in the rest of the world it is linked to starvation - Are we not lucky we had all those wars.

You sound like the grandson of a very wealthy businesses who states that work is demeaning, completely ignoring that the wealth he has which allows him not to work was made by his poor grandfather who worked all his life.

Acknowledge that war is vile, yes. Ignore the bravery of ones countrymen who did their duty and showed courage, that is even viler. Ignore that fact that we all enjoy wealthy lives because of the wars we vilify, that is just stupid.


Be honest with yourself. If you study your history by looking only at the upper echelons of the society you miss the essence of those times. Your version of history is one that ignores the masses of peasant and laborour.

Have I ever stated that I ignore the masses when it comes to history? You are inventing things at this point. Besides you seem to imply that the upper echelons of society were something utterly distinct from the masses, how old are you? That is like the thought of a teenage which has yet to see the world. When I look at the genealogical tree of my family one fifth of the men died in war. Do you think war is something which involved the lords siting back whilst they sent the peasants to die? In wwI the lie tenants had almost double the mortality rate that the privates.


Keep reading your Wikipedia articles and one day you will become great like your idols!

Did you seriously just demonify education?



Look I don't like arguing with you very much, because it feels like an argument I had with an ex-girl friend of mine long ago. Were when she asked me what I thought of her friends, I said they were all nice and mentioned that one of them was very pretty, and from that she accused me of plotting to **** all her friends and betray her. At the time Failed to see the logical gap between "Claudia is very pretty" and "I will **** all of your friends", just as now I fail to see the logical gap between what I said before and what you think I said before.


Also I am not saying all or even most women makes these huge leaps devoid sense; just the crazy bat**** ones.

[Babyguile]

Hold on a second...

You have accused me of jumping to conclusions, inventing things and assuming what was meant by your words. Then you proceed to do the same.

All I said on the issue of war was that it was vile, which it is, since it is killing another person. Yet you assumed I was doing the following things:

- abandoning the legacy of tragic soldiers
- pretending that the soldiers never existed (...eh?)
- denying that they died for the cause of their country
- denying their bravery and courage

You have assumed the following:

- I live in wealth
- I have a rich grandfather and had a hard-working great grandfather
- peasants and laborours are synonymous with soldiers
- I am a woman
- I am a man

The joys of argiung over the internet. I admit that I jumped to conclusions but you have to when debating on an internet forum since it's more two-dimensional than having a conversation face-to-face; but two wrongs don't make a right, and you seemed oblivious that you were committing the same crime as you gleefully shoved your own interpretations of history down my gagging throat.

[Alexander III]

Hold on a second...

You have accused me of jumping to conclusions, inventing things and assuming what was meant by your words. Then you proceed to do the same.

All I said on the issue of war was that it was vile, which it is, since it is killing another person. Yet you assumed I was doing the following things:

- abandoning the legacy of tragic soldiers
- pretending that the soldiers never existed (...eh?)
- denying that they died for the cause of their country
- denying their bravery and courage

You have assumed the following:

- I live in wealth
- I have a rich grandfather and had a hard-working great grandfather
- peasants and laborours are synonymous with soldiers
- I am a woman
- I am a man

The joys of argiung over the internet. I admit that I jumped to conclusions but you have to when debating on an internet forum since it's more two-dimensional than having a conversation face-to-face; but two wrongs don't make a right, and you seemed oblivious that you were committing the same crime as you gleefully shoved your own interpretations of history down my gagging throat.


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m35k5mtL5P1qz8lm7o1_500.png

[Scheherazade]

~

F i n a l____W a r n i n g

Posts that are off-topic and/or contain personal comments will be removed without further notice.

~

[Emil Miller]

I was on the underground today and there was a woman of about thirty sitting opposite with a paper store bag with name Hollister and what might pass for an Alpha male. This is it:


http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6458/hollistercloseup.jpg

[Alexander III]

I was on the underground today and there was a woman of about thirty sitting opposite with a paper store bag with name Hollister and what might pass for an Alpha male. This is it:


http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6458/hollistercloseup.jpg

no Emil, that is a handsome guy, Tony explained what an Alpha male was before quite well, I am surprised you are just as ignorant about Alpha males as others, it might be a generational linguistic gap.

[cacian]

I was on the underground today and there was a woman of about thirty sitting opposite with a paper store bag with name Hollister and what might pass for an Alpha male. This is it:


http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6458/hollistercloseup.jpg

Humm I am not sure he has a very effeminate look about him me think. It is the pretty face that did it for me.

[Emil Miller]

Humm I am not sure he has a very effeminate look about him me think. It is the pretty face that did it for me.

Well he may well be one of the many homosexuals that make up the male model fraternity.

[cacian]

Well he may well be one of the many homosexuals that make up the male model fraternity.

LOL :p

I am not sure because not all pretty faces are necessarily gay...some of them can be very women worshippers.
I must admit the muscles do not help very much.

[Emil Miller]

no Emil, that is a handsome guy, Tony explained what an Alpha male was before quite well, I am surprised you are just as ignorant about Alpha males as others, it might be a generational linguistic gap.

Well, strange as it may seem, I don't find men interesting but women are another matter.

[cacian]

Anyone here amongst fellow members who perhaps can honestly declare they are an alpha male or is it a look thing?


Well, strange as it may seem, I don't find men interesting but women are another matter.

Haha Emil what do you find interesting then haha?
I find men most interesting women are more deviative not so reliable sometimes a bit like a car it does not where it is going when the driver's a bit lost haha:p

[Emil Miller]

Anyone here amongst fellow members who perhaps can honestly declare they are an alpha male or is it a look thing?



Haha Emil what do you find interesting then haha?
I find men most interesting women are more deviative not so reliable sometimes a bit like a car it does not where it is going when the driver's a bit lost haha:p

If you are going to use the Greek alphabet as a gauge for Litnet males I get the impression that the majority would fall somewhere between iota and omega rather than alpha.

[cacian]

If you are going to use the Greek alphabet as a gauge for Litnet males I get the impression that the majority would fall somewhere between iota and omega rather than alpha.

LOL I see oh well that was a waste of time then.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I must say that I am pretty surprised at the reaction from the female posters on the whole alpha thing. Firstly, with the reaction to the word itself and secondly questioning if such a type of person even exists!! No wonder you ladies end up falling for rotters and cads half the time!

[Darcy88]

Have I ever stated otherwise? Unless Gahndi was a warlord, I am not sure where you are going with this.



Have your forgotten that the only reason you have a computer, and the internet, and are not illiterate has a lot to do with all the wars of Europe's past. Look at India and Africa, the average European has all the advantages over the average Indian or African not because our nations were smarter but because our nations were stronger. Yes war is ugly, but that ugliness and the deaths of thousands before us is the only reason you

1)have the technology and education to post on this board
2) have the right of free speech to say what you think
3) (if you are a woman) Have any rights at all (Nazis took away all political rights from women)


In Italy after the end of the war, everything to do with Fascism and Mussolini was seen as wrong and having nothing to do with Italy. The prevalent thought became that the war was fascisms war not Italy's. In Kefallonia 5000 Italians were executed by the Germans because, rather than acting like the cowards we Italians are, they choose to do their duty and serve their country. The bravery and sacrifice of these men is better know in America than Italy. In fact up until recently, the Italian government would not even acknowledge that these men were executed by the germans. Why does my nation choose to abandon the only men who did their duty and showed courage? Because we lost the war, so everything to do with the war was evil, the loyalty and bravery of these men was not loyalty and bravery because we lost the war. And it is for reasons like these that I detest my country at times, because zealotry is zealotry. Acknowledge that war is vile, yes - abandon the boys (because wars are fought by boys not men) and pretend that they never existed and that their death had nothing to do with their country, it is base. Yes war is vile, so vile that in europe and America poverty is linked to obesity while in the rest of the world it is linked to starvation - Are we not lucky we had all those wars.

You sound like the grandson of a very wealthy businesses who states that work is demeaning, completely ignoring that the wealth he has which allows him not to work was made by his poor grandfather who worked all his life.

Acknowledge that war is vile, yes. Ignore the bravery of ones countrymen who did their duty and showed courage, that is even viler. Ignore that fact that we all enjoy wealthy lives because of the wars we vilify, that is just stupid.



Have I ever stated that I ignore the masses when it comes to history? You are inventing things at this point. Besides you seem to imply that the upper echelons of society were something utterly distinct from the masses, how old are you? That is like the thought of a teenage which has yet to see the world. When I look at the genealogical tree of my family one fifth of the men died in war. Do you think war is something which involved the lords siting back whilst they sent the peasants to die? In wwI the lie tenants had almost double the mortality rate that the privates.



Did you seriously just demonify education?



Look I don't like arguing with you very much, because it feels like an argument I had with an ex-girl friend of mine long ago. Were when she asked me what I thought of her friends, I said they were all nice and mentioned that one of them was very pretty, and from that she accused me of plotting to **** all her friends and betray her. At the time Failed to see the logical gap between "Claudia is very pretty" and "I will **** all of your friends", just as now I fail to see the logical gap between what I said before and what you think I said before.


Also I am not saying all or even most women makes these huge leaps devoid sense; just the crazy bat**** ones.

Excellent post Alex. I must say that I fully agree with all that you say here when it comes to war and the heroism and ugly truth of it.

[stlukesguild]

BabyGuile-

This is an exercise in stereotpying.

Maybe we should have gender apartheid on this section of the forum then all the boys can use themselves to stroke their own egos like they usually do.

Does anyone else see the irony here?:nonod:

Didactical value? I'm asking you to prove to me that alpha males exist. Nobody would die for Colin Firth. Also it's utterly laughable that you used Odysseus as an example. What frame of mind where you in when you read about Odysseus from Dante and Homer? For example did you read The Odyssey because you had finished Lord of the Rings and wanted a good sword and sorcery tale to see you off to bed? If you want to know what the true function of Greek mythology was, and what the didactical motives of tales of Odysseus, Medea, Agamemnon, Heracles etc. were then read Women in Athenian Law and Life by Roger Just.

A sophomore in the women's studies program, are we? Good luck with that.:rolleyes5:

Yeah, no stereotyping going on against men in this post.

And I think this is all quite weird for a guy to say. Maybe you're an ultra-feminist?

You think?

[Babyguile]

A sophomore in the women's studies program, are we? Good luck with that.:rolleyes5:

I'm not a women's studies student but I don't have anything against them particularly.

[tonywalt]

I'm not a women's studies student but I don't have anything against them particularly.

I'd like to study women more.