Noise

[Emil Miller]

I am allergic to noise and driven to distraction by extraneous sounds that I'm subjected to either frequently or occasionally. Here are some the sounds that have me gritting my teeth:

Dogs barking
Pneumatic drills
Babies crying
Police, fire engine and ambulance sirens
Helicopters
Hammering
Motorcycles

What do LitNetters find particularly annoying in this regard?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Oh yes I feel exactly the same way, I am allergic to noise. To your list I would add:

Children/students*
The TV (I'm thinking about all the ... Mrs N watches, screaming and clapping programmes, horrible)
Ice cream vans (these should be banned, pure sound pollution)
Groups of two or more women talking (or nagging women)
The washing machine
The Hoover
Neighbours who play music (though this only seems to happen when the weather goes above 25C for some reason. Music in public in general)


Oh, also anybody who talks to me when I'm trying to do something else. It just becomes noise.

*With working in a modern comprehensive the noise is still a shock to the system everyday. Students are so loud, screaming and shouting at each other all the time for no reason, seriously you would not believe it.

[TheFifthElement]

So basically you're easily distracted and like to blame everyone else ;)

[Emil Miller]

So basically you're easily distracted and like to blame everyone else ;)

Not according to this:

The Noise Abatement Society

Noise is the forgotten pollutant. The hundreds of complaints we receive each week demonstrate it is an invisible killer. Our nation is suffering from an uncontrolled acceleration of noise in today’s society with little effective help to fight it. Imposed excessive noise from sirens, neighbour-noise, train-horns, reversing alarms, traffic, car-stereos, cinema speakers, pubs-clubs, street-noise all contribute to an accumulation of stress related damage to our health.

[Helga]

I don't think many noises bother me, maybe music in the middle of the night. I can easily block everything out. but what does bother me is people, people can be very annoying, don't get me started on people that want to talk to me, now that is an annoying noise.

[Charles Darnay]

I didn't realize there was such hatred of so many noises.

Things like construction and babies crying I agree to, but personally I enjoy the myriad of sounds that make of everyday life.

If I am somewhere to get away from "life" - such as in the country, then I get more irritated. But otherwise....noise is a reminder of how busy a world we live in and also how separated we are from each other.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I didn't realize there was such hatred of so many noises.

Things like construction and babies crying I agree to, but personally I enjoy the myriad of sounds that make of everyday life.

If I am somewhere to get away from "life" - such as in the country, then I get more irritated. But otherwise....noise is a reminder of how busy a world we live in and also how separated we are from each other.

We took a visit to North Ireland earlier this year for a family wedding. During our stay we took a short trip out on a boat which stopped off on Devenish Island (see below). Not only was this for me the highlight of the break, it was one of the highlights of the year. It was not just because it was such a beautiful little island but because there was no modern pollution at all, no sounds of cars, no fire engines, no noisy neighbours, no ice cream vans, music, none of that, nothing, just the sound of the wind (and rain) and the water. Truly perfect. I could have stayed there for an age.

I also noticed the positive effect that the little island had on everyone of our party (about 10). It was very refreshing and pure. Even in the country it can be hard to get away from the drain of traffic and intrusion, but this little place was just perfect and everyone commented upon it.

(Incidentally Oscar Wilde went to the school in Enniskillen which we saw from the boat trip too.)

http://www.fermanaghlakelands.com/P2899-Devenish-Island-Monastic-Site-CoFermanagh-Enniskillen.aspx
Click on the virtual tour.

Sometimes you don't even realise how annoying and oppressive noise pollution/modern life is until you are away from it at some place like that. For the same reason I'm off to refresh and recharge my batteries out in the Peak District sometime this week. I need to claw back a bit of sanity and clear out the noise.

[stlukesguild]

Neely... I certainly understand your aversion to the noise in school. Those who have never been inside an urban public school building have no idea... and the administration does its best to maintain that ignorance... banning photographs, recordings, video, etc... My wife notices that my voice becomes increasingly loud over the course of the school year... and I have had her tell me any number of times that I am too loud. Over the summer months the volume of my voice decreases until the start of the new school year. I, myself, notice that for the first weeks of school I am struggling to make myself heard over the students, but by this time I can absolutely boom over them when necessary... and can even maintain a solid volume while struggling with a cold... as I am now. perhaps the most difficult affliction for a teacher to deal with is laryngitis.

[Emil Miller]

I have friends who live in a small Somerset village it the west of England and occasionally I am invited to stay. Now the countryside can be noisy with cocks crowing early morning and tractors and horse riders making their way through the village etc., but on one occasion I went to the village churchyard about noon and stood among the gravestones listening for a sound and was greeted with total silence such as one seldom experiences in everyday life. Obviously one expects the opposite in a city, but the concentration of noise there is often unnecessary and contrary to what a civilised existence should be.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I like noise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnv2r9AZucA).

[Vonny]

I love quiet. It's very quiet in my home when the windows are closed. All I can hear is the clock ticking, refrigerator running, etc., unless we choose to make noise. There's no traffic close enough to be heard. There's not even dogs barking. We're off the flight paths so there's no air traffic over our area, except for the very occasional single engine plane or helicopter. My bedroom at night is completely quiet, unless there is rain or a thunderstorm. I love to come home to blessed quietness. It's one of my favorite, favorite things about where I live.

[TheFifthElement]

I'm curious - how would you define 'noise'?

[TurquoiseSunset]

T.V. noise is the bane of my life. I hate commercials and generally, when I watch t.v. I like to keep the sound a low as possible. I'm the t.v. remote Gollum of the house...I need it close by so I can turn down the volume as soon as it gets too loud. I end up fiddling with the sound 85% of the time I spend in front of the t.v.

Other noises that really bug me are:
- the neighbours making D.I.Y noise on a Sunday afternoon when I'm trying to take a nap.
- General open plan noise at work when I really need to concentrate.
- Any loud-ish noises or music in the mornings while I'm still trying to wake up.
- Children screaming in close proximity to me.
- People in the lounge shouting to others in a different room when I'm trying to watch something.

[Abookinthebath]

I like noise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnv2r9AZucA).

WOW..That woke me up!! Memo to self - do not leave speakers turned up when clicking on links!

I live in a suburban area and the noise of pressure washers and lawn mowers gets right on my nerves in the summer!! Why does someone with a 3m square patch of grass really need the biggest petrol lawnmower in the world???! And why do they need to use it when I am chilling in the garden with a book???

[LitNetIsGreat]

WOW..That woke me up!! Memo to self - do not leave speakers turned up when clicking on links!

I live in a suburban area and the noise of pressure washers and lawn mowers gets right on my nerves in the summer!! Why does someone with a 3m square patch of grass really need the biggest petrol lawnmower in the world???! And why do they need to use it when I am chilling in the garden with a book???

Oh yeah, there's another one lawnmowers, I agree. During the summer on a Sunday it's all you can hear outside, that and music (as people only seem to play music in the summer round my end?). I have a little push mower and you can hardly hear it. It does the job spot on as well. Why don't people with small/medium gardens get one of those instead of those with Spitfire engines?

[Emil Miller]

I'm curious - how would you define 'noise'?

Here's the Oxford Dictionary's definition. I've highlighted the word from which it is derived.

noise(noise)
Line-break:OnOffPronunciation:/nɔɪz/
noun
1 a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance:
making a noise like a pig
what’s that rustling noise outside the door?[mass noun] a series or combination of loud, confused sounds, especially when causing disturbance:
she was dazed with the heat and noise
vibration and noise from traffic(noises) conventional remarks made to express something:
the government made tough noises about defending sterling2 [mass noun] technical irregular fluctuations that accompany a transmitted electrical signal but are not part of it and tend to obscure it:
the enhancer can improve the video signal quality, reducing noise and increasing image sharpnessrandom fluctuations that obscure or do not contain meaningful data or other information:
over half the magnitude of the differences came from noise in the dataverb
archaic
1 [with object] (usually be noised about) talk about or make known publicly:
you’ve discovered something that should not be noised about2 [no object] make much noise:
rook, crow and jackdaw — noising loudPhrases
make a noise
speak or act in a way designed to attract a lot of attention or publicity:
he knows how to make a noise and claim police harassment
noises off
sounds made offstage to be heard by the audience of a play.
Origin:
Middle English (also in the sense ‘quarrelling’): from Old French, from Latin nausea 'seasickness' (see nausea)

[TheFifthElement]

Impressive Emil, I didn't know you were the OED ;)

Now, back to the original question - how would you define noise?

[Emil Miller]

Impressive Emil, I didn't know you were the OED ;)

Now, back to the original question - how would you define noise?

The OED description coincides exactly with my own.

A sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance

[Abookinthebath]

Oh yeah, there's another one lawnmowers, I agree. During the summer on a Sunday it's all you can hear outside, that and music (as people only seem to play music in the summer round my end?). I have a little push mower and you can hardly hear it. It does the job spot on as well. Why don't people with small/medium gardens get one of those instead of those with Spitfire engines?

I think there is a secret competition to see who can buy the biggest and noisiest......

[PoeticPassions]

There are some sounds/noise that really kill me... one is the sound of someone rubbing their palms together. Last spring, I used to go to the grad reading/study room, which was meant to be a completely quiet room (no talking, singing, music, etc allowed). But there was this one girl, who would, every few minutes, rub her hands together really loudly. It drove me nuts, and I wanted to punch her.

Another sound I hate is the grating of a metal sponge on pots and pans. Absolutely awful.

As for noise, and less one distinct sound, that I dislike:
--Really loud people on the bus
--Jack hammers (or most construction work)
--Street cleaners

[Emil Miller]

Oh yeah, there's another one lawnmowers, I agree. During the summer on a Sunday it's all you can hear outside, that and music (as people only seem to play music in the summer round my end?). I have a little push mower and you can hardly hear it. It does the job spot on as well. Why don't people with small/medium gardens get one of those instead of those with Spitfire engines?

Lawnmowers are unnaturally noisy and I never use mine at weekends, but what has bugged me for decades is why science doesn't find a way to make machinery of all types quieter. If it's possible to go to the moon, surely the technical problems associated with noise reduction wouldn't be that great.

[swannbeam]

T.V. noise is the bane of my life. I hate commercials and generally, when I watch t.v. I like to keep the sound a low as possible. I'm the t.v. remote Gollum of the house...I need it close by so I can turn down the volume as soon as it gets too loud. I end up fiddling with the sound 85% of the time I spend in front of the t.v.
If there's anything truly terrifying about Orwell's vision of the future it's the thought of an obligatory television in every home that can't be turned off.

[TheFifthElement]

The OED description coincides exactly with my own.

A sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance

I guess that brings us right back to this:

So basically you're easily distracted and like to blame everyone else ;)

As 'noise' is basically any sound which is 'annoying' but then the definition of what is 'annoying' is subjective, not an objective test. So whilst you may list things like cars and sirens (which are really designed to be noticable - there was a really interesting maths programme which explained this recently, beyond the common sense, obvious reasoning) and dogs and lawnmowers, these are merely the sounds which you notice when in fact they're no more 'noisy' than anything else. Perhaps what is more at issue is the question of why these sounds are noisy and distracting to you. Most of the things you've mentioned I don't find annoying, so it's not noise to me. I like the sound of lawnmowers in summer, and kids playing, and I like listening in to other people's conversations because they're fascinating. Sirens are exciting. Pneumatic drills are a different experience entirely - the sound goes completely through you, especially the closer you get. It's interesting, a whole body experience of sound. I like it. I guess that makes me lucky.

But back to personal distraction - you referred to the graveyard as 'quiet' but I bet there were birds singing and you didn't even notice. There was probably some wind blowing through the trees, maybe some insect life chirping. I'd be astonished if it was actually silent. The issue is noticing, not the noise itself necessarily. Anyone who thinks 'nature' is quiet should try camping. Every time I have camped I have been woken up at some ridiculous hour by nature, whether that be cows giving birth at 2am, sheep bleeting, the dawn chorus which is pretty damned deafening, wind, rain, you name it we've even had our tent dive bombed by seagulls before now (in the Isle of Skye - and the seagulls were huge). I've never yet been woken by people when camping, just nature. It's all very 'noisy'. Certainly as noisy as a city, anyway. I still like camping, noisy as it is, or perhaps because it is noisy. I feel connected to something that way. Maybe that's just me.

Like this morning, when I was waiting for my train. I could hear the sounds of cars, and people talking, but the loudest sound of all was the wind. But people often don't find things like wind and birds disruptive or distracting because we have no control over the wind or the birds and therefore learn to phase out the noise. But because we'd like people and all things related to people to be quiet (except, of course when it's us talking or making some inconvenient noise) it becomes 'annoying' - almost as though we consider it an invasion of personal space, even though it really isn't. Noise intolerance really is a state of mind. Go try some meditation. It really is quite useful in teaching you to focus the mind on what is important to you, and phase out all the background noise that isn't.

Peace and quiet is available pretty much wherever you are if you can learn to tune in and tune out what you do and don't want to hear. But sometimes it's good to listen. People talk a lot about strange things, the world in its entirety is a noisy place (ever heard the sea?). Silence is rare and overrated. You're only guaranteed of it in the grave. Listen while you can hear - that's what I say. Embrace the glorious noise!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I got a couple lawnmower junkies in my neighborhood. Two of my neighbors, at the height of grass-cutting time, mow their lawn literally every day. It's an obsession with them. I oddly find, if it's not too close, the sound of a lawnmower relaxing.

[Vonny]

These are good points FifthElement. To me the ocean roar isn't noise. The sound of geese flying overhead is not noise. Even a thunderstorm isn't noise.

To me, the worst noise is my mother's irritable voice. She actually has many different voices. Certain voices are truly the worst to me. (I know I shouldn't say it, please understand that this is my idiosyncracy, but it's certain women's voices that drive me up the wall.)

I also hate the sound of people who constantly cough and clear their throats.

I probably don't even notice a lawnmower, but a whiny or b*tchy voice, oh god!

The other point I want to make is that for me, there is no trying to "view" it in a different way, and start to hear a whiny voice and have it sound like a bird sound. It doesn't work!

[Emil Miller]

I guess that brings us right back to this:


As 'noise' is basically any sound which is 'annoying' but then the definition of what is 'annoying' is subjective, not an objective test. So whilst you may list things like cars and sirens (which are really designed to be noticeable - there was a really interesting maths programme which explained this recently, beyond the common sense, obvious reasoning) and dogs and lawnmowers, these are merely the sounds which you notice when in fact they're no more 'noisy' than anything else. Perhaps what is more at issue is the question of why these sounds are noisy and distracting to you. Most of the things you've mentioned I don't find annoying, so it's not noise to me. I like the sound of lawnmowers in summer, and kids playing, and I like listening in to other people's conversations because they're fascinating. Sirens are exciting. Pneumatic drills are a different experience entirely - the sound goes completely through you, especially the closer you get. It's interesting, a whole body experience of sound. I like it. I guess that makes me lucky.

But back to personal distraction - you referred to the graveyard as 'quiet' but I bet there were birds singing and you didn't even notice. There was probably some wind blowing through the trees, maybe some insect life chirping. I'd be astonished if it was actually silent. The issue is noticing, not the noise itself necessarily. Anyone who thinks 'nature' is quiet should try camping. Every time I have camped I have been woken up at some ridiculous hour by nature, whether that be cows giving birth at 2am, sheep bleeting, the dawn chorus which is pretty damned deafening, wind, rain, you name it we've even had our tent dive bombed by seagulls before now (in the Isle of Skye - and the seagulls were huge). I've never yet been woken by people when camping, just nature. It's all very 'noisy'. Certainly as noisy as a city, anyway. I still like camping, noisy as it is, or perhaps because it is noisy. I feel connected to something that way. Maybe that's just me.

Like this morning, when I was waiting for my train. I could hear the sounds of cars, and people talking, but the loudest sound of all was the wind. But people often don't find things like wind and birds disruptive or distracting because we have no control over the wind or the birds and therefore learn to phase out the noise. But because we'd like people and all things related to people to be quiet (except, of course when it's us talking or making some inconvenient noise) it becomes 'annoying' - almost as though we consider it an invasion of personal space, even though it really isn't. Noise intolerance really is a state of mind. Go try some meditation. It really is quite useful in teaching you to focus the mind on what is important to you, and phase out all the background noise that isn't.

Peace and quiet is available pretty much wherever you are if you can learn to tune in and tune out what you do and don't want to hear. But sometimes it's good to listen. People talk a lot about strange things, the world in its entirety is a noisy place (ever heard the sea?). Silence is rare and overrated. You're only guaranteed of it in the grave. Listen while you can hear - that's what I say. Embrace the glorious noise!

If you like the noises you have described I would say that you are unusual rather than lucky.
No, there was absolutely no sound whatsoever in the churchyard; that's what made it so memorable.
Noise intolerance isn't a state of mind it's about noise physically penetrating our ears.
Personally I find most unsolicited conversation tedious in the extreme, I have no desire whatsoever to hear somebody using a mobile phone to tell someone else that they will be home at the usual time. It's bad manners to force conversation on strangers, as it is to intentionally listen in to someone else's conversation.
You say the silence is rare and overrated but I prefer the view of the author of The English Constitution.

An inability to stay quiet is one of the conspicuous failings of mankind.

Walter Bagehot

[JuniperWoolf]

An inability to stay quiet is one of the conspicuous failings of mankind.

Yeees, everyone should just stay quiet so as to not annoy Emil (after all, he so infreqently annoys us ;) ).

So, no road crews or emergency vehicles then? Fantastic idea.

[Emil Miller]

Yeees, everyone should just stay quiet so as to not annoy Emil (after all, he so infreqently annoys us ;) ).

So, no road crews or emergency vehicles then? Fantastic idea.

Many people could certainly be a lot quieter than they are and if you bother to read the other posts in this thread, you will see that there are others who are similarly annoyed by what, in many cases, is unnecessary noise.
Emergency vehicles have to be tolerated but that doesn't mean that we should like their noise.
As for my annoying members of LitNet, I suspect that by us you really mean me.

[Vonny]

If you like the noises you have described I would say that you are unusual rather than lucky.
No, there was absolutely no sound whatsoever in the churchyard; that's what made it so memorable.
Noise intolerance isn't a state of mind it's about noise physically penetrating our ears.
Personally I find most unsolicited conversation tedious in the extreme, I have no desire whatsoever to hear somebody using a mobile phone to tell someone else that they will be home at the usual time. It's bad manners to force conversation on strangers, as it is to intentionally listen in to someone else's conversation.
You say the silence is rare and overrated but I prefer the view of the author of The English Constitution.

An inability to stay quiet is one of the conspicuous failings of mankind.

Walter Bagehot

I'm with you Emil. It's one of the many reasons I've felt I wouldn't have children.

It's strange but I love cemeteries. I will sometimes go there and sit for hours among the graves. My favorite are the pioneer cemeteries, where the graves are very old, and people of all ages are buried, not just old people. In pioneer cemeteries you can see extended families buried together, and a young woman buried next to a baby 1 day old. It puts things into perspective for me. And these are abandoned, hardly anyone visits them anymore. I've gotten some very good scares in them too. But it's so quiet.

Noise is something that absolutely makes me sick. If it bothers a person's nervous system, there is no way that you can do a "mind over matter" and decide that it's all good.

[Buh4Bee]

I like noise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnv2r9AZucA).

freakin' awesome!

I too detest noise. I mind noise that breaks my concentration. The worst of such noises is loud TV with explosions, yelling or loud sex scenes. I hate the radio in the morning and often in the car. I just often turn it off. I find at work, it is very difficult to teach when you have the attention span of a gnat. I hate giggling, calling out, or farting noises. Otherwise, I live a very quiet existence.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Peace and quiet is available pretty much wherever you are if you can learn to tune in and tune out what you do and don't want to hear.

But I don't want to learn to "tune in and tune out" or to "phase out" noise pollution (via meditation or any other technique) any less than I would want to ignore it if someone was dumping oil in my front garden.


I got a couple lawnmower junkies in my neighborhood. Two of my neighbors, at the height of grass-cutting time, mow their lawn literally every day. It's an obsession with them. I oddly find, if it's not too close, the sound of a lawnmower relaxing.

Yes but if you go around listening to death metal then I suppose the sound of the lawnmower must seem quite relaxing...;)

I don't mind the sound of push mowers, as I said, mine gives off a gentle whiz and roll. The neighbour across the road spends two hours, in summer, with his spitfire engine mower on the shortest bit of grass you can imagine. There are worst things than mowers for me as well though, for me they fight to get into the top ten, of which number one is a battle between groups of teens who scream at each other for no reason and TV adverts/game shows. It's a tough call.

[stlukesguild]

Although it may be unusual, I am fully with Emil on this issue. The noise that he is talking about is that which is unnecessary and the result of the lack of respect for others. Blasting your stereo in the car or your apartment when they actually have something known as headphones simply shows a lack of respect for others. The morons who need to answer their phones and engage in loud conversations in restaurants or waiting rooms are simply morons lacking any consideration for others. I don't paint my house Day-Glo florescent green and fuchsia and populate by front lawn with 20-foot sculptures of Mickey Mouse. If I did, I would recognize that the neighbors would have good cause to complain. By the same token, I don't want to hear your hip-hop or polka music blasting from your car-stereo system every Saturday while you wash the car. And don't even get me going upon the stupidity of TV sets blasting Oprah in the doctor's waiting room. I'm already sick. That's why I'm there. I don't need to hear Oprah or the f***ing NASCAR races blasting in my ears. And what happened to going out to a restaurant or pub without a slew of television sets set on every possible sporting even from baseball to the poker channel while hard-rock blasts from a dozen speakers? I'm going out to have a good time in conversation with friends or family over a meal I didn't have to prepare. I shouldn't need to yell. When I was a kid, parents didn't even take children into the nicer restaurants until they were older (12 or so) and never into bars. If a baby started crying, the mother immediately took the child out to the restroom or car. I can't think of the number of times I have become absolutely furious at some moronic family with a brood of uncouth and ill-mannered Neanderthal children who yell and carry on and kick the back of the chairs we're sitting in, while the parents smile and think its all so precious. I find myself hoping that they all go home having obtained a good dose of Salmonella.

Rant over.:banghead:

[Buh4Bee]

I suppose this is why you work with the visual art and you are not a music- talent aside- assuming.

[Delta40]

I hate those dirt bikes that ride up and down the street, in the alleyways and round parks. Police don't do anything and neither does the council.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Blasting your stereo in the car or your apartment when they actually have something known as headphones simply shows a lack of respect for others.
I'm not sure of the road laws in Ohio, but in Illinois it's illegal to wear headphones while you drive. I'm all for respecting each other and what not, but if it's a nice day and I feel like blasting some heavy metal or Dvorak with the windows rolled down as I drive, I will. Same goes for when I'm taking out the ol' electric wheelchair (lift operated). One gets some strange looks when unloading a wheelchair and blasting this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3an8jdsVM3s). One gets even stranger looks when unloading a wheelchair, wearing a heavy metal shirt, and blasting this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz0b4STz1lo). :cornut:

[Vonny]

Although it may be unusual, I am fully with Emil on this issue. The noise that he is talking about is that which is unnecessary and the result of the lack of respect for others. Blasting your stereo in the car or your apartment when they actually have something known as headphones simply shows a lack of respect for others. The morons who need to answer their phones and engage in loud conversations in restaurants or waiting rooms are simply morons lacking any consideration for others. I don't paint my house Day-Glo florescent green and fuchsia and populate by front lawn with 20-foot sculptures of Mickey Mouse. If I did, I would recognize that the neighbors would have good cause to complain. By the same token, I don't want to hear your hip-hop or polka music blasting from your car-stereo system every Saturday while you wash the car. And don't even get me going upon the stupidity of TV sets blasting Oprah in the doctor's waiting room. I'm already sick. That's why I'm there. I don't need to hear Oprah or the f***ing NASCAR races blasting in my ears. And what happened to going out to a restaurant or pub without a slew of television sets set on every possible sporting even from baseball to the poker channel while hard-rock blasts from a dozen speakers? I'm going out to have a good time in conversation with friends or family over a meal I didn't have to prepare. I shouldn't need to yell. When I was a kid, parents didn't even take children into the nicer restaurants until they were older (12 or so) and never into bars. If a baby started crying, the mother immediately took the child out to the restroom or car. I can't think of the number of times I have become absolutely furious at some moronic family with a brood of uncouth and ill-mannered Neanderthal children who yell and carry on and kick the back of the chairs we're sitting in, while the parents smile and think its all so precious. I find myself hoping that they all go home having obtained a good dose of Salmonella.

Rant over.:banghead:

Oh my gosh, THIS IS my oldest brother! (I'm not personalizing am I?) He could have said this exactly. In fact a lot of that is his words exactly, LOL! He mainly goes to restaurants where he's known, and they know not to seat him near kids, or to later seat kids near him.

If he goes into a restaurant where he's not known, he tells them right up front, "Don't seat me near children." I'm always impressed that he can ask for something like that and get it, where they'd just ignore me.

The last time he was in town we went out to eat, and a table of women were howling with laughter and talking at the tops of their voices across the table until we had a headache. My brother said, "How loud do people need to talk to be heard?" He said, "I'll bet if I fired my gun through the roof they'd get quiet real quick!" (This is a joke, btw, more of his "keep them polite" philosophy.)

It is unbelievable because when I was a child we very rarely ate in a restaurant, but every night we sat at the table and ate quietly, like humans.

An interesting thing about TVs in medical offices is - where I live they're in the hospital and labs. But in doctor's office lobbies, such as the cardiology office, where doctors are in control, there are no TV's. I've never seen a TV in a doctor's office lobby. The doctors know we've seen 9/11 flashbacks enough times.

I'll add to my list of hated voices those horrible arrogant talk personalities Rush, Glenn Beck, etc.

In our big city there are no booming car stereos because the police issue citations.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

In our big city there are no booming car stereos because the police issue citations.
That's lame. Do they also issue citations for unbelievably loud motorcycles, the ones that literally hurt your ears? Those are way worse than any car stereo.

[Vonny]

That's lame. Do they also issue citations for unbelievably loud motorcycles, the ones that literally hurt your ears? Those are way worse than any car stereo.

I'm pretty sure they do because we don't really have that going on. Anyway, I never hear them. I don't spend a great amount of time in the big city but enough that I'd notice if there was much of it. The noise is on the lakes. But weekdays on our lake it's mostly nice and quiet. And wintertime on the houseboat is really nice and peaceful.

To tell the truth, I'm not sure how many tickets are written. It may be personal threats that keep a lot of the noise down.

I'll add, in the summertime in town you sometimes hear house stereos, and there are local bands that play in parks. However, I never hear "metal" anywhere.

[Varenne Rodin]

I can't stand newscasters or talk radio.

[stlukesguild]

In our big city there are no booming car stereos because the police issue citations.

Of course in a large urban city this is a continual problem. Not much of a problem on my street as the head of the city counsel lives down the block. In the suburbs they issue citations and some even impound the vehicle and yank the stereo.:thumbsup:

That's lame. Do they also issue citations for unbelievably loud motorcycles, the ones that literally hurt your ears? Those are way worse than any car stereo.

Certainly. And again repeat offences can lead to an impounded vehicle.

[Vonny]

In our big city there are no booming car stereos because the police issue citations.

Of course in a large urban city this is a continual problem. Not much of a problem on my street as the head of the city counsel lives down the block. In the suburbs they issue citations and some even impound the vehicle and yank the stereo.:thumbsup:


I'm not sure what tactics they use, but our main city's population is over 44,000 now, and they do keep the noise down. I don't live there, though.

[JuniperWoolf]

I guess I have no right to talk about the noise of modern society and it's effects on my nerves, I've never really had to deal with it. My area is very sparcely populated. Most streets get maybe one car per hour, and that includes the main street after nine o'clock. I kind of feel like I'm missing out, now.


Lawnmowers are unnaturally noisy and I never use mine at weekends, but what has bugged me for decades is why science doesn't find a way to make machinery of all types quieter. If it's possible to go to the moon, surely the technical problems associated with noise reduction wouldn't be that great.

Well, we do have mufflers. My brother likes to take thing apart, you should hear what an engine sounds like without one.


Many people could certainly be a lot quieter than they are and if you bother to read the other posts in this thread, you will see that there are others who are similarly annoyed by what, in many cases, is unnecessary noise.

People should still be allowed to make the sounds that you've classified as noise, though. Many fun activities make noise. How are kids supposed to play tag outside without screaming?


As for my annoying members of LitNet, I suspect that by us you really mean me.

I was joking. How could you not tell by the winking smiley-face? Wow, you really are old, aren't you? ( ;) )


It's all very 'noisy'. Certainly as noisy as a city, anyway. I still like camping, noisy as it is, or perhaps because it is noisy.

Nature is indeed loud. Very rarely, at five in the morning, I wish that all birds were dead.


I'll add, in the summertime in town you sometimes hear house stereos, and there are local bands that play in parks. However, I never hear "metal" anywhere.

Metal bands don't really like the park. They're more into abandoned factories and slaughterhouses, creepy **** like that.

[stlukesguild]

Cleveland began to seriously crack down on noise pollution after a couple of violent noise-related incidents in the city. The first involved a city fireman. He was trying to sleep after a 48-hour shift but it was the 4th of July and the neighbors were setting off fireworks. He called the cops, but they admitted they weren't about to do anything. Well after midnight he went out and asked the neighbors (4 kids in their late teens through early twenties) to stop the noise already. He was told to go f*** himself among other profanities, and the kids continued setting off the explosives. A few minutes later the fireman came back with a gun. One of the teens, a true "rocket scientist" in intellect smugly asked, "What are you gonna do? Shoot us all?" which is exactly what the fireman proceeded to do... killing 3. There were jokes in the community concerning the moron kid who asked the provocative question suggesting that killing him was only the right thing to do... effectively ending a gene pool of less than stellar intellect.

Shortly thereafter, there were a couple of shootings involving tenants of up-scale downtown apartments. They had bought into high-end condo-apartments in order to live downtown, but sometime after many had moved in, a couple of bars opened up and loud music rang out until well past 2 AM throughout the neighborhood both from the bar, and from the hip-hop blasting from the cars of the bar clientelle. Again, there police ignored complaints until a couple of shootings took place.

The city shut down the bars for violation of building codes concerning noise, and they began to take repeated complaints of noise pollution more serious, issuing citations, etc... Ultimately, the problem ends up being very much class-based. The wealthier neighborhoods have strict rules concerning noise just as they have codes concerning up-keep of the lawn, up-keep of your home, legal requirements for the installation of a swimming pool, etc... and they have the manpower to enforce these rules. The poorer neighborhoods are already stretched thin dealing with more pressing issues: drugs, gangs, crime, etc...

As I said before, it is ultimately an issue of respect. No one complains when the neighbors play their music loud during a Labor-Day or 4th of July party. No one complains when someone runs the lawnmowers and leaf-blowers at 10 AM on Saturday. However, putting the stereo out on the porch and blasting it so the whole neighborhood can hear while you wash the car or shoot hoops will lead to the police being summoned. Last week we had some painters painting our house. Unbelievably, they brought a stereo out and proceeded to crank up the music... while working at someone else' home! I worked on painting crews and landscaping crews immediately after college and we would have never thought to show such lack of respect for the costumers. I suspect the problem is that so many have become so used to being continually plugged into some form of stimuli: TV, radio, I-pods, cell phones that they honestly have no idea what to do when those stimuli are not there.

I am reminded of my brother-in-law. My wife and I commonly host a large Christmas party for family and friends. We go to great extent to set the mood: decorations, candlelight, incense, good food and drink, and the appropriate music... playing low, so as to not interrupt conversation. The first time we invited my brother-in-law he proceeded to turn on the TV to some stupid football game. The following year we set to deal with this by simply removing the TV set from the dining-room/living room area. He began to repeatedly ask where the TV was and pester me to bring it out. When I didn't do so he started to look around the house for it on his own... eventually pestering my brother, who lived with us, to loan him his TV so he could bring it out and fire it up at the party!:goof: He ended up becoming so agitated that he had to leave early... the idea of engaging in conversation with others without the continual noise of the TV playing was beyond him.:out:

[Vonny]

"One of the teens, a true "rocket scientist" in intellect smugly asked, "What are you gonna do? Shoot us all?" which is exactly what the fireman proceeded to do... killing 3. There were jokes in the community concerning the moron kid who asked the provocative question suggesting that killing him was only the right thing to do... effectively ending a gene pool of less than stellar intellect."

This is an effective way of dealing with the situation. I guess Ohio is something like Idaho.


Yeah, I can relate to everything in that post, Stluke. The only thing is that here, where we have the patriots, there is no more sacrosanct time than 4th of July. Our whole area goes crazy with booms and gun shots. (except for us, I hate it.)

I'm lucky like Juniper to live away from the people, mostly.

And one reason I like winter is that there are no lawnmowers anywhere. It's much more quiet.

And I hate the sound of TV sports, especially football... horrible.

[JuniperWoolf]

However, putting the stereo out on the porch and blasting it so the whole neighborhood can hear while you wash the car or shoot hoops will lead to the police being summoned.

But don't you think that when people try to press for legal control over the volume of the music that others listen to at a perfectly reasonable hour (say three in the afternoon), they're infringing on those people's liberty? Why shouldn't everyone simply endure others' music, teenage girls laughing, or the sounds of my brother's unofficial mechanic's shop in his garage, simply because that's life? I'm speaking of noise within reason of course, booming your stereo at 3am might just drive people to the point of homicide, but should the world stop spinning because some people get "annoyed?"

In the same way, if you were to paint your house neon green or have a mickey mouse statue on your own lawn, that should be within your rights. It's your property. There's a man in my town who covered his entire front lawn with huge boulders, and for a year or so everyone was talking about how it would "lower the property value." There were a half dozen letters in the newspaper about it. I'm glad he was allowed to keep them, they looked stupid but he should be allowed to look stupid if he wants to, and at least they weren't boring. Besides, if they had forced him to remove the boulders, what's next? Everyone must paint their house blue? Everyone must drive a four-door? Everyone must own a retriever, and be sure to keep your grass 3/4 inch long, and no bushes, and be sure to keep your house and yourself tidy and looking good so that when we eventually choose to sell our house we'll get more money for it. Ugh.

[Vonny]

I don't want to answer for Stlukes, but my own personal answer is to stay as far from people as possible, as much of the time as possible, so I don't have to look at neon green and Mickey Mouse. Thing is most people do those things not because they think a neon green house is pretty and neon green is so important to them, but just because they want to be obnoxious to others.

And then, legal channels aren't really effective when you're just dealing with jerks. There's no point in wasting time with it.

[prendrelemick]

My new neighbour (half a mile away) takes his dogs out at about 10.30 every night and if the wind is in the right direction we hear them barking - so annoying.

[PoeticPassions]

someone sneezing incessantly.
The noise one makes when trying to get phlegm out :ack2:

[Vonny]

My new neighbour (half a mile away) takes his dogs out at about 10.30 every night and if the wind is in the right direction we hear them barking - so annoying.

Throw a rock onto his porch with a note tied to it.

[Scheherazade]

It is unbelievable because when I was a child we very rarely ate in a restaurant, but every night we sat at the table and ate quietly, like humans.One of the greatest abilities of humanbeings is to talk. I love dinner times because I do not consider it a time to "refuel" but to socialise while enjoying some good food.

Actually, come to think of it, dinner times spent talking and reconnecting with other family members are among my of fondest childhood memories. We were savages, no doubt.

[Vonny]

One of the greatest abilities of humanbeings is to talk. I love dinner times because I do not consider it a time to "refuel" but to socialise while enjoying some good food.

Actually, come to think of it, dinner times spent talking and reconnecting with other family members are among my of fondest childhood memories. We were savages, no doubt.

Good point Scher. We always ate in silence, certainly until my after my father left. My dad shoveled in food and the rest of us sat trying to eat. My brothers were forced to eat everything on their plates, but thankfully I was never forced to eat anything. Major events happened in the world, and no one told us of them if it was while school wasn't in session. My father's first language was Spanish and he never really taught us to speak it. We never really knew my dad although he was a "family man." Certainly no one asked us kids about us. It would have never occurred to us to talk about ourselves in any way. When my father talked it usually had to do with my brothers not doing their chores properly, but he didn't do that at the dinner table. I remember he would remind us, "Tell your mother the food is good." And we always said, "The food is good mom," at the table.

[Abookinthebath]

The noise one makes when trying to get phlegm out :ack2:

THIS is without a doubt, the most annoying noise in the world!! Closely followed by sniffing!

Oh, and I agree with the food and socialising thing - I see the point that sometimes people want to have a nice quiet meal, but there are places you can go to virtually guarantee that - or indeed sit in the house by yourself. I hate rowdy kids in any type of restaurant, but at least the kids are out enjoying time with their families instead of 'being quiet' and sitting at home watching Youtube or playing on a console....

[LitNetIsGreat]

I totally agree with Stluke's on the issue of lack of respect, it's what most of what the annoying noise pollution boils down to. I can also relate to having relatives who need the TV on permanently in social functions, though I also agree that this is becoming a growing social issue. At least I've not come across TVs in restaurants, yet.



But don't you think that when people try to press for legal control over the volume of the music that others listen to at a perfectly reasonable hour (say three in the afternoon), they're infringing on those people's liberty? Why shouldn't everyone simply endure others' music, teenage girls laughing, or the sounds of my brother's unofficial mechanic's shop in his garage, simply because that's life? I'm speaking of noise within reason of course, booming your stereo at 3am might just drive people to the point of homicide, but should the world stop spinning because some people get "annoyed?"

Children playing outside is one thing or someone working in a garage, but this to me is completely different to someone blasting their music over all the neighbourhood (or the bus or other public place) for others to endure, whatever the hour. This for me goes way beyond the line. This is pollution.

What's wrong with keeping the music low or putting ear plugs in? Why should others have to "endure" it? It is not a personal liberty to pollute all the road. It just comes down to a lack of respect for others that people think this sort of thing is acceptable.

[Emil Miller]

It seems obvious from these posts that a majority of people do not like noise whether it is avoidable or not. I go back to the Latin origin of the word nausea and clearly, within this context, noise has a sickening effect. Now if this were the case in ancient Rome, it's not difficult to imagine how much truer it is today in our highly mechanised society.
With regard to the rather juvenile notion that everyone should be allowed to do as they like, it shouldn't be necessary to remind people that they also have responsibilities as well as rights. If anyone wants the benefits of civilisation, they must be prepared to uphold it by respecting the rights of others.

As John Stuart Mill wrote in his treatise On Liberty:

The liberty of the individual must be thus far limited; he must not make himself a nuisance to other people.

[TheFifthElement]

Meditate people, meditate. It really works.

Either that or buy yourself some ear defenders. Of course that won't switch off the sound of your own grumbling... ;)

I love the sound of lawnmowers. The sound of lawnmowers is the sound of a warm summer's day and the fact that I'm hearing it means that I'm not in work and instead I am having a day of leisure. And the smell of cut grass is delicious.

[papayahed]

Thing is most people do those things not because they think a neon green house is pretty and neon green is so important to them, but just because they want to be obnoxious to others.

And then, legal channels aren't really effective when you're just dealing with jerks. There's no point in wasting time with it.

And some people like neon green. I painted my kitchen what I thought was a very cheery bright green. Every single person that entered had a comment. Something along the lines "oh this is horrible". to thios day I can't see what was so bad about it, I loved it!!

I tend to give people a little more credit. I do know people who will go out of their way to spite but I think that's more the exception then the rule.

[PoeticPassions]

I love the sound of lawnmowers. The sound of lawnmowers is the sound of a warm summer's day and the fact that I'm hearing it means that I'm not in work and instead I am having a day of leisure. And the smell of cut grass is delicious.

Me too, actually. And the smell of freshly cut grass is the best smell in the world.

[Emil Miller]

Me too, actually. And the smell of freshly cut grass is the best smell in the world.

Yes it's very nice but have you noticed that you don't normally smell it until after it has been cut and the mower switched off?
Another favourite smell for me is freshly ground coffee.

[Scheherazade]

Yes it's very nice but have you noticed that you don't normally smell it until after it has been cut and the mower switched off?
Another favourite smell for me is freshly ground coffee.Don't tell me! You hate the noise coffee grounders and coffee machines make!

:D

[PoeticPassions]

Yes it's very nice but have you noticed that you don't normally smell it until after it has been cut and the mower switched off?
Another favourite smell for me is freshly ground coffee.

I beg to differ. I notice the smell as it is being cut as well. :)

Though I will say I am nostalgic for the days when my grandpa used to cut the grass with a sickle.
Then you only hear the swoosh of grass being cut...

http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/thumbnails/21009-cuba-farmer-cutting-grass-with-a-sickle-scythe.jpeg

[stlukesguild]

But don't you think that when people try to press for legal control over the volume of the music that others listen to at a perfectly reasonable hour (say three in the afternoon), they're infringing on those people's liberty?

So you have the right to impose your bad taste in music upon all those around you? Give me a break. Where does that end? Then I go out and by an even larger stereo system and aim the speakers at your house and blast it right back at you? Liberty? That's a real stretch of the term. Your rights end when they infringe upon other's rights.

In the same way, if you were to paint your house neon green or have a mickey mouse statue on your own lawn, that should be within your rights. It's your property.

You're 14, right? You understand that for every right you have there are accompanying responsibilities. If I purchase property on a given street, I am required to maintain that property according to the law, legal codes, and the community standards. I must keep the lawn up and maintain the house within the laws and community standards. Some communities have codes stipulating no boats stored, no pick-up trucks visible from the street, all vehicles stored in a garage, no loud dogs tied up outside, etc... Some "gated communities" go as far as to establish that the garage must face away from the street (so that the neighbors don't see inside your crap-filled garage), limit the color and style of your mailbox, and the limit the possible lawn ornamentation. There are usually laws spelling out the limited hours when lawnmowers, snow-blowers, leaf-blowers, and other loud machinery can be run. These rules are established because what you do with your property affects the property values of those around you. I cannot purchase a home in a residential neighborhood and proceed to convert it into a restaurant, a nightclub or small manufacturing plant for the simple reason that such would impact the property values of the entire neighborhood as drastically as if I turned my home into a brothel or crack house. Noise has a decided impact upon property values. No one wants to live near an active train line, in the flight pattern of a major airport, or near a major interstate. Most states are involved in building sound-barrier walls along major interstates as they run through residential areas in order to prevent loss of residents/taxes. Many cities require airports to alternate flight routes so that no one neighborhood is continually exposed to the noise of low-flying jets. Rules against unnecessary noise from stereos and TVs are no different.

TheFifthElement- Meditate people, meditate. It really works.

Screw meditation. When I'm off work... and I'm popping in some Bach on my CD player I don't want to hear your hip-hop blasting from across the street. There's a far better solution than meditation. Keep your music at a reasonable level or wear headphones.

For those who cannot seem to fathom the notion that loud music can be annoying... more than annoying... consider how the US military has employed the same as a means of harassing and torturing an opponent or prisoner:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/19/usa.guantanamo

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2008/feb/28/theusmilitarystorturetop1

TheFifthElement- I love the sound of lawnmowers. The sound of lawnmowers is the sound of a warm summer's day and the fact that I'm hearing it means that I'm not in work and instead I am having a day of leisure. And the smell of cut grass is delicious.

PoeticPassions-Me too, actually. And the smell of freshly cut grass is the best smell in the world.

Emil- Yes it's very nice but have you noticed that you don't normally smell it until after it has been cut and the mower switched off?
Another favourite smell for me is freshly ground coffee.

And the smell of the fresh mowed grass is often lost in the smell of gasoline and the toxic fumes of the mower.

[Emil Miller]

[COLOR="DarkRed"] There's a far better solution than meditation. Keep your music at a reasonable level or wear headphones.

I do both but what is incredible is that something so obvious doesn't register with some people. I couldn't find a smiley for thick.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

However, putting the stereo out on the porch and blasting it so the whole neighborhood can hear while you wash the car or shoot hoops will lead to the police being summoned.

What about when you're driving?

[JuniperWoolf]

[Screw meditation. When I'm off work... and I'm popping in some Bach on my CD player I don't want to hear your hip-hop blasting from across the street.

Maybe you should put on headphones.


So you have the right to impose your bad taste in music upon all those around you?

Why not? They have the right to impose their bad taste in clothes on you and “pollute” your visual senses, why not auditory? Or do you propose that we start telling people what to wear as well?


Where does that end? Then I go out and by an even larger stereo system and aim the speakers at your house and blast it right back at you?

I said "within reason."


Your rights end when they infringe upon other's rights.

Bingo. Your legal right to not experience "annoyance," (which by the way, is a pretty weak emotion - why should your mild discomfort be such a huge determining factor in the way not just one or two but many other people live their lives?) does not supersede your neighbor's teenage son's right to start a metal band in his garage if he plays at reasonable hours and it doesn't shake your furniture. He's not hurting anyone. So you experience a negative emotional response, it won't last forever.


You're 14, right?

Yep, everyone who disagrees with you is fourteen. We’re all so young and stupid! Help us, teach us!


If I purchase property on a given street, I am required to maintain that property according to the law, legal codes, and the community standards. I must keep the lawn up and maintain the house within the laws and community standards. Some communities have codes stipulating no boats stored, no pick-up trucks visible from the street, all vehicles stored in a garage, no loud dogs tied up outside, etc... Some "gated communities" go as far as to establish that the garage must face away from the street (so that the neighbors don't see inside your crap-filled garage), limit the color and style of your mailbox, and the limit the possible lawn ornamentation.

:skep: I'm pretty sure that we don't even have gated communities in Canada (or at least not in Northern Alberta), and if they exist they're few in number, yet our property market gets along just fine (my nannie just sold her house for just over 200 grand). We know about gated communities because of American movies. How can people live like that? Wouldn't the monotony drive them insane? I think everyone must hate them, what's not to hate? They must live there for the "security." Where I live, your property is your property, and since there are so many different kinds of people the lawn quality varies to an exquisite degree.


There are usually laws spelling out the limited hours when lawnmowers, snow-blowers, leaf-blowers, and other loud machinery can be run.

We have those laws too, because people have to get up in the morning. That law is reasonable.


These rules are established because what you do with your property affects the property values of those around you. I cannot purchase a home in a residential neighborhood and proceed to convert it into a restaurant, a nightclub or small manufacturing plant for the simple reason that such would impact the property values of the entire neighborhood as drastically as if I turned my home into a brothel or crack house.

Hyperbole aside, we aren't talking about opening a strip club beside a nursery. We're talking about rolling our eyes when our weird neighbor paints her house grey and kills all of her grass, and not calling the cops to demand that they do something about it. In my province, there are people like this scattered around and you see their houses occasionally. They do whatever they want with their own little square, and so does everyone else, and the result is a large number of people who mow their lawn when they feel they should so that no one thinks that they're trashy or poor, a small number of weirdos that make rock formations in spiral shapes on their lawn, or turn their lawn into one big flower patch, or simply don't do anything at all with the thing, and a small number of people who take exceptional pride in their property and take great care of it. That’s the way things naturally fall and it works fine. Everyone gets over the orange and green house and we move on with our lives.


For those who cannot seem to fathom the notion that loud music can be annoying... more than annoying... consider how the US military has employed the same as a means of harassing and torturing an opponent or prisoner:.

You really like using extreme, unrealistic examples to prove your points, don't you? No one is suggesting that someone should be legally allowed to blast noise through your wall at a pitch that you would find painful. Simply, if the sound is audible but not pulsing and if it's a reasonable hour, then expecting you to "allow" people to play their music is not too much to ask. And while we’re on the subject of exageration, I just have to say, a blasting stereo isn’t even that loud. I used to live in an appartment beside a couple that threw a lot of parties. They’d max their volume, and I still couldn’t hear the words to the songs. The bass didn’t bounce my stuff off the shelves (although some things did vibrate). If you’re in your house and someone outside is playing music, then you might hear at most a whisper or a little pulse occasionally between 10am and 8pm. That’s not too much to expect someone to be able handle.

***

People who think that they should be able to stop others from looking or acting a certain way just because they don’t like it baffle me. Everyone around me is CONSTANTLY annoying me, especially when I live in Edmonton. They all wear such ugly shoes, they listen to the sh*ttiest techno/country garbage that I've ever heard, just seeing someone "texting" makes me hate them, OLD people are ALWAYS nagging busdrivers (and every other sphere of the service industry, but I see the bus driver most often) like they're owed something, and some people really smell. I'm annoyed by it. I experience annoyance. Then I go home, or I get to class, or I start thinking about something else, and it goes away.* I don't stand up on the bus and tell everyone to be quiet, tell the smelly people to get off, tell the kids with the gameboys to turn off the sound, tell the loud Japanese girls to stop giggling at the top of their lungs, tell the neon kids at the back to shut off the horrible techno or tell the old people to shut the **** up and wait until we reach the next stop like the rest of us.

Why don’t I do these things? First, it’s rude. Secondly, because if I did, then someone else could want to change some aspect of myself that they find disagreeable, and I couldn’t argue with them without being a hypocrite. Odds are, everyone who posted in this thread about “noise” makes some sounds themselves that would drive other people up the wall but which they think is just fine. If you’re reading this, then odds are you pick your nails, or your nose whistles when you breathe, or you unconsciously hum in public, or (god forbid!) you listen to loud music at the legally allotted time. Would you stop rubbing your hands to get warm in a waiting room if some pushy woman told you to, because it “annoys” her? I sure wouldn’t. I wouldn’t turn my headphones off either, they really aren't that loud (but people might still get irritated if they hear so much as a hum). The world doesn’t revolve around those with the largest sense of entitlement which makes them willing to complain that they’re “annoyed.” The sounds of other people are just a price we have to pay for living in a community.

*Please note that my readiness to express my opinion on a forum is different from what I'd say in real life, because the forum exists for the purpose of sharing ideas and having them challenged in the form of debate. If I met someone in the real world who thought that everyone should be forced to turn their music down at all hours of the day, I would let them blather on and try to think about tennis or something. I wouldn't tell them why I think they're wrong like I would here because if I tried to boss them into not being bossy that would be hypocritical.

[Vonny]

I've said before that I wish I could hear everyone's voice on the forum, but the reason I come here is that there are no voices. There's a few voices, and one in particular, that I'd love to hear, but overall, I'm very thankful that there's no auditory component to the forum. Anyway, I know that the voices I'd like to hear would be drowned out.

[stlukesguild]

SLG-So you have the right to impose your bad taste in music upon all those around you?

JuniperWolf-Why not? They have the right to impose their bad taste in clothes on you and “pollute” your visual senses, why not auditory? Or do you propose that we start telling people what to wear as well?

The analogy is lame. I can easily look away or ignore your bad taste in clothing. It is not so easy when it comes to noise. But then I have already pointed out that you don't have the rights to do whatever you want in terms of appearances either when it comes to how you use your property.

Where does that end? Then I go out and by an even larger stereo system and aim the speakers at your house and blast it right back at you?

I said "within reason."

Who decides what is within reason? Ultimately it comes down to whether your noise bothers enough people that they report it to the authorities or take legal action.

Your rights end when they infringe upon other's rights.

Bingo. Your legal right to not experience "annoyance," (which by the way, is a pretty weak emotion - why should your mild discomfort be such a huge determining factor in the way not just one or two but many other people live their lives?) does not supersede your neighbor's teenage son's right to start a metal band in his garage if he plays at reasonable hours and it doesn't shake your furniture. He's not hurting anyone. So you experience a negative emotional response, it won't last forever.

I'm sorry but my rights do supersede those of the neighbor's teenage son when it comes to causing a disturbance. If the neighbor is so bent on allowing his son to start a metal band in the garage it is his responsibility to soundproof the walls.

You're 14, right?

Yep, everyone who disagrees with you is fourteen. We’re all so young and stupid! Help us, teach us!

If you are not 14 then start using your brain like you are an adult who has some understanding of the world. Your arguments so far suggest you have no idea about what is entailed with regard to the legalities of creating a disturbance nor the responsibilities involved in owning property... which you most certainly are not free to use in any way you so desire.

If I purchase property on a given street, I am required to maintain that property according to the law, legal codes, and the community standards. I must keep the lawn up and maintain the house within the laws and community standards. Some communities have codes stipulating no boats stored, no pick-up trucks visible from the street, all vehicles stored in a garage, no loud dogs tied up outside, etc... Some "gated communities" go as far as to establish that the garage must face away from the street (so that the neighbors don't see inside your crap-filled garage), limit the color and style of your mailbox, and the limit the possible lawn ornamentation.

I'm pretty sure that we don't even have gated communities in Canada (or at least not in Northern Alberta), and if they exist they're few in number, yet our property market gets along just fine (my nannie just sold her house for just over 200 grand). We know about gated communities because of American movies. How can people live like that? Wouldn't the monotony drive them insane? I think everyone must hate them, what's not to hate? They must live there for the "security." Where I live, your property is your property, and since there are so many different kinds of people the lawn quality varies to an exquisite degree.

Perhaps when you own the property yourself you will discover that you most certainly are not free to do whatever you wish with that property. Properties are zoned stipulating what uses they may or may not be put to use for. I most certainly cannot open up a machine shop in my back lot, nor start drilling for oil. I don't live in a "gated community" so I have far more options as to how I landscape or decorate my home or lawn... but the possibilities are still limited to that which meets the community standards.

These rules are established because what you do with your property affects the property values of those around you. I cannot purchase a home in a residential neighborhood and proceed to convert it into a restaurant, a nightclub or small manufacturing plant for the simple reason that such would impact the property values of the entire neighborhood as drastically as if I turned my home into a brothel or crack house.

Hyperbole aside, we aren't talking about opening a strip club beside a nursery. We're talking about rolling our eyes when our weird neighbor paints her house grey and kills all of her grass, and not calling the cops to demand that they do something about it. In my province, there are people like this scattered around and you see their houses occasionally. They do whatever they want with their own little square, and so does everyone else, and the result is a large number of people who mow their lawn when they feel they should so that no one thinks that they're trashy or poor, a small number of weirdos that make rock formations in spiral shapes on their lawn, or turn their lawn into one big flower patch, or simply don't do anything at all with the thing, and a small number of people who take exceptional pride in their property and take great care of it. That’s the way things naturally fall and it works fine. Everyone gets over the orange and green house and we move on with our lives.

Whether we are talking about laws regulating how close a bar can be to a day-care or public school or laws regulating lawn care and how you may or may not decorate your lawn, it is the same thing: the government is given the authority to regulate such things in order to maintain peace and property values. It is quite likely that parents will not wish to enroll their children in a day-care with a bar or strip club next door. Such will clearly impact the value of the day-care... and thus laws are established based on the community standards.

The same is true of your lawn. In rural Appalachia or North Dakota you might be able to do whatever you wish with your lawn. In nearly any more residential neighborhood this is in no way true. If I were to simply let my lawn go for too long, I would receive a citation and an order to rectify the situation. If I ignored the order, the city would mow the lawn for me and charge me for the "service". The same is true of littering, storing non-operational vehicles, etc... As for how I paint my house... I doubt gray would be seen as offensive... but lime green and hot pink or stripes or polka dots or whatever would undoubtedly again have me facing legal problems. The house next to mine is owned by a guy who is slowly fixing it with the aim to sell it (or rent it out) for a profit. He has received several citations and visits by the city building inspectors requiring that he paint the house, fix the front steps, and even tear down a dilapidated shed in the back lawn.

No one is suggesting that someone should be legally allowed to blast noise through your wall at a pitch that you would find painful. Simply, if the sound is audible but not pulsing and if it's a reasonable hour, then expecting you to "allow" people to play their music is not too much to ask. And while we’re on the subject of exageration, I just have to say, a blasting stereo isn’t even that loud. I used to live in an appartment beside a couple that threw a lot of parties. They’d max their volume, and I still couldn’t hear the words to the songs. The bass didn’t bounce my stuff off the shelves (although some things did vibrate). If you’re in your house and someone outside is playing music, then you might hear at most a whisper or a little pulse occasionally between 10am and 8pm. That’s not too much to expect someone to be able handle.

So as long as the words are not audible, it's OK? Give me a break. A stereo blasting from a car stereo across the street results in something more than just a whisper. I shouldn't have to listen to the neighbor's music while I am trying to listen to my music, or watching TV, or reading, or studying, or just relaxing. Again you completely avoid the issue of simple respect for others around you. You may have been a tolerant neighbor in your apartment... good for you. I would have seen to it that the landlord had a talk with them and if that didn't work, I would have called the police. Landlords rapidly evict any tenant that end up causing a big enough disturbance to result in the police showing up, as it usually results in citations to them.

People who think that they should be able to stop others from looking or acting a certain way just because they don’t like it baffle me. Everyone around me is CONSTANTLY annoying me, especially when I live in Edmonton. They all wear such ugly shoes, they listen to the sh*ttiest techno/country garbage that I've ever heard, just seeing someone "texting" makes me hate them, OLD people are ALWAYS nagging busdrivers (and every other sphere of the service industry, but I see the bus driver most often) like they're owed something, and some people really smell. I'm annoyed by it. I experience annoyance. Then I go home, or I get to class, or I start thinking about something else, and it goes away.* I don't stand up on the bus and tell everyone to be quiet, tell the smelly people to get off, tell the kids with the gameboys to turn off the sound, tell the loud Japanese girls to stop giggling at the top of their lungs, tell the neon kids at the back to shut off the horrible techno or tell the old people to shut the **** up and wait until we reach the next stop like the rest of us.

Again... you analogies are weak. You cannot compare your experience on a bus to that of your home. The bus is understood as public transportation. It's role is not in any way akin to that of your home.

Why don’t I do these things? First, it’s rude.

Ah... but it's not rude, disrespectful, and disruptive to blast your stereo outside so that it bothers the neighbors, or to hold loud conversations on the cell phone in restaurants or doctor's offices? What we are speaking of hear is unnecessary noise. Lawnmowers may be an irritant... but we have to cut the grass. Traffic sounds may be bothersome... but there is a difference between this and the teen revving up his engine simply to draw attention to himself, and then roaring up and down the street repeatedly... or the unnecessary sound of a blasting stereo.

On the positive side... all such morons will probably end up doing permanent damage to their hearing, so there just may be a degree of poetic justice.:ciappa:

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Off-topic or inflammatory posts will be removed without further notice.

~

[B. Laumness]

I suspect the problem is that so many have become so used to being continually plugged into some form of stimuli: TV, radio, I-pods, cell phones that they honestly have no idea what to do when those stimuli are not there.


You have pointed the main problem.

Here is an excerpt of the essay “On Din and Noise”, in Parerga and Paralipomena by Schopenhauer:



Kant has written a treatise on The Vital Powers; but I should like to write a dirge on them, since their lavish use in the form of knocking, hammering, and tumbling things about has made the whole of my life a daily torment. Certainly there are people, nay, very many, who will smile at this, because they are not sensitive to noise; it is precisely these people, however, who are not sensitive to argument, thought, poetry or art, in short, to any kind of intellectual impression: a fact to be assigned to the coarse quality and strong texture of their brain tissues. On the other hand, in the biographies or in other records of the personal utterances of almost all great writers, I find complaints of the pain that noise has occasioned to intellectual men. For example, in the case of Kant, Goethe, Lichtenberg, Jean Paul; and indeed when no mention is made of the matter it is merely because the context did not lead up to it. I should explain the subject we are treating in this way: If a big diamond is cut up into pieces, it immediately loses its value as a whole; or if an army is scattered or divided into small bodies, it loses all its power; and in the same way a great intellect has no more power than an ordinary one as soon as it is interrupted, disturbed, distracted, or diverted; for its superiority entails that it concentrates all its strength on one point and object, just as a concave mirror concentrates all the rays of light thrown upon it. Noisy interruption prevents this concentration. This is why the most eminent intellects have always been strongly averse to any kind of disturbance, interruption and distraction, and above everything to that violent interruption which is caused by noise; other people do not take any particular notice of this sort of thing. The most intelligent of all the European nations has called “Never interrupt” the eleventh commandment. But noise is the most impertinent of all interruptions, for it not only interrupts our own thoughts but disperses them. Where, however, there is nothing to interrupt, noise naturally will not be felt particularly. Sometimes a trifling but incessant noise torments and disturbs me for a time, and before I become distinctly conscious of it I feel it merely as the effort of thinking becomes more difficult, just as I should feel a weight on my foot; then I realise what it is.

[Abookinthebath]

And some people like neon green. I painted my kitchen what I thought was a very cheery bright green. Every single person that entered had a comment. Something along the lines "oh this is horrible". to thios day I can't see what was so bad about it, I loved it!!

I tend to give people a little more credit. I do know people who will go out of their way to spite but I think that's more the exception then the rule.

I once painted my hallway red. It was a huge mistake, but seemed like a good idea at the time!! 4 coats of Magnolia later, it was gone!

Anyway....Yes, I think spiteful people are the exception rather than the rule.

Selfish people are far more common though.....

[Emil Miller]

You have pointed the main problem.

Here is an excerpt of the essay “On Din and Noise”, in Parerga and Paralipomena by Schopenhauer:

An interesting passage. The penultimate sentence sums it up neatly .

But noise is the most impertinent of all interruptions, for it not only interrupts our own thoughts but disperses them. Where, however, there is nothing to interrupt, noise naturally will not be felt particularly. :lol:

In connection with this I will relate a story that underlines some of the minority selfishness or stupidity displayed on this subject.
In London a man was trying to get the elevator in a block of public housing flats. Every time he pressed for the lift, it went down before reaching his floor so he went down to the ground floor to find out what was happening and discovered a woman leaning with her finger on the down button.
When he remonstrated with her that she was stopping other people from using the lift she swore at him and said 'I don't care about other people, I do what I like.'
Whereupon he slapped her around a bit and she screamed at him 'What did you do that for?'
He replied ' I do what I like.'

[TheFifthElement]

Screw meditation. When I'm off work... and I'm popping in some Bach on my CD player I don't want to hear your hip-hop blasting from across the street. There's a far better solution than meditation. Keep your music at a reasonable level or wear headphones.

I don't play hip-hop music loudly. I can't see what's given you the impression I do. I'm more of a Björk person myself. Neither do I play music loudly in general - if I want to listen to my own music I tend to prefer to use my iPod anyway, it's just a habit I got used to from spending a lot of time on the bus, and I do go through long periods of time not listening to music at all - but I do enjoy, on a summer's day, the sound of lawnmowers and the smell of cut grass (with or without petrol smell - you tend to find the grass smell overrides anyway. I also like the smell of cigarettes, even though I'm not a smoker, and the smell you get from tarmaced roads when it rains after a long, hot, dry period. Delicious.) and sunscreen and the smoky, fatty smell of barbecues and the sound of music kind of drifting around - not my music, but someone else's. I have a couple of neighbours who tend to play music on a nice day - sometimes people have parties. It's kind of nice, I like it. It's all redolent of a lovely, relaxing summer's day.

My question to you is if someone was playing Bach loudly, would you consider that noise pollution? Or, from another perspective, how do you know that other people don't view your playing of Bach in your own house as noise pollution? Do you always wear headphones? When is loud too loud? For example, I used to live in a terraced house and quite often I could hear my neighbours' TV or when they were listening to the radio. As I have acquired the (apparently rare) ability to not get annoyed by noises made by other people I never complained about it - would you? Would it change your opinion if you knew that my neighbours were in their 80's and their hearing was really not so great? Were they causing pollution, or just trying to enjoy their TV and radio in the privacy of their own home?


But I don't want to learn to "tune in and tune out" or to "phase out" noise pollution (via meditation or any other technique)
Why not? If you don't want to hear the noise, and 'tuning out' is a method of not hearing the noise then why wouldn't you want to do it? That doesn't make any sense. Unless you like being annoyed by it? But really, if you think about it, noise/sound is around us all the time. We 'tune out' an unbelievable amount all of the time. The brain is incredibly adept at tuning out noise - that's why we don't generally hear ourselves breathing, or the sound of our blood rushing in our ears, or the detail of every conversation and perhaps why I don't 'hear' many people on this thread complaining about bird noise (though boy they are so noisy) and wind and those sorts of things. You may think it takes effort to learn to tune out those 'annoying sounds' (which seem to include other people's conversations) and it may be true that it takes some effort, but it seems to me that it's as much effort, if not more, to be annoyed by it. And probably more stressful, all things considered.

I've linked a couple of interesting articles which might explain things better than I can. If you were stressing out about unusually excessive noise I wouldn't really have anything much to say about it, but it seems to me that the noises you're complaining of are quite ordinary, everyday noises. To remind everyone, these are the sorts of things that have been listed by you as 'noise pollution':


Children/students*
The TV (I'm thinking about all the ... Mrs N watches, screaming and clapping programmes, horrible)
Ice cream vans (these should be banned, pure sound pollution)
Groups of two or more women talking (or nagging women)
The washing machine
The Hoover
Neighbours who play music (though this only seems to happen when the weather goes above 25C for some reason. Music in public in general)
note - you don't mention 'loudly' here. Just playing music

Oh, also anybody who talks to me when I'm trying to do something else. It just becomes noise.

It just seems to me that mine is a healthier attitude. I'm not getting stressed out other people having a conversation or domestic appliances or people speaking to me or ice cream vans (which I also love. It's the summer day thing.) etc all those very ordinary sounds which go on around us all the time. I can't do anything about those things any more than I can do anything about birdsong or owls hooting or the wind blowing or thunder crashing or the rain battering on my window - all these sounds are as loud and distracting as the 'noise' of which you complain. What I'm curious about is why one bothers you and the other doesn't, and can you apply what you do in the case of those noises which don't bother you to the ones that do, so you are not 'suffering' unnecessary annoyance. Anyway, here are the articles but if you prefer to expend your energy getting all grumpy instead I guess that's up to you.

http://www.fitsugar.com/Study-Says-Meditation-Helps-You-Concentrate-During-Your-Daily-Life-16202260
http://chatterblocker.com/whitepapers/tune_out_distractions.html
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-05-benefits-meditation-neuroscientists-tune-distractions.html


But noise is the most impertinent of all interruptions, for it not only interrupts our own thoughts but disperses them. Where, however, there is nothing to interrupt, noise naturally will not be felt particularly. :lol:
Of course the other side to that argument is that if you're thoughts were so deep you would be entirely absorbed by them and therefore not distracted by any noise. Deep concentration is not easily interrupted. Like during meditation, funnily enough. I might have mentioned it once or twice.

My husband is an excellent example of this. When he is coding (that's computer programming to you) he is so concentrated and absorbed in his work that a bomb could go off outside his window and he would not notice. Certainly he doesn't notice when our and our neighbours' kids (ages 11, 7, 6 and 4) are running amok in the house although when he's not coding he's fairly quick to restore order. I also notice this: if I'm absorbed in my work or in a book I'm reading then hours can pass and all sorts of things can go on around me and I wouldn't be diverted. You've probably experienced it too. I bet most people have.

If you're so easily distracted, perhaps you're not thinking deeply enough.

[Vonny]

I think there's a physiological difference in people, Fifth. It's like some people can drink 3 bottles of wine and live to tell about it and others can't.

I know that I can't listen to my mom's constant stream of chatter. Her voice really does replace my own thoughts with her own. And the sound of her voice colors my world. Her constant coughing and throat clearing, which doctors say has no physical basis, and is purely habit, is a form of torture to me. I may be especially sensitive to it because I've heard it all my life, but since I've been "hypnotized" by the sound since birth and it has so many subconscious associations to it, I would have to quit everything else I do and meditate 24/7 to learn to hear that sound differently.

There are places in the world that aren't noisy. I'll tell you, this is an issue that is very near and dear to my heart. If the world ever changes to the point where I'm submerged in noise and can't have my quiet, that's when I'm done.

(well actually, my mom's incessant noise began after I was 7. She was one person until I was 7, and then became a different person.)

[Emil Miller]

If you're so easily distracted, perhaps you're not thinking deeply enough.

So Schopenhauer didn't think deeply enough ? hmmm

[LitNetIsGreat]

Originally Posted by Neely
But I don't want to learn to "tune in and tune out" or to "phase out" noise pollution (via meditation or any other technique)

Why not? If you don't want to hear the noise, and 'tuning out' is a method of not hearing the noise then why wouldn't you want to do it? That doesn't make any sense. Unless you like being annoyed by it? But really, if you think about it, noise/sound is around us all the time. We 'tune out' an unbelievable amount all of the time. The brain is incredibly adept at tuning out noise - that's why we don't generally hear ourselves breathing, or the sound of our blood rushing in our ears, or the detail of every conversation and perhaps why I don't 'hear' many people on this thread complaining about bird noise (though boy they are so noisy) and wind and those sorts of things. You may think it takes effort to learn to tune out those 'annoying sounds' (which seem to include other people's conversations) and it may be true that it takes some effort, but it seems to me that it's as much effort, if not more, to be annoyed by it. And probably more stressful, all things considered.

I've linked a couple of interesting articles which might explain things better than I can. If you were stressing out about unusually excessive noise I wouldn't really have anything much to say about it, but it seems to me that the noises you're complaining of are quite ordinary, everyday noises. To remind everyone, these are the sorts of things that have been listed by you as 'noise pollution':


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Children/students*
The TV (I'm thinking about all the ... Mrs N watches, screaming and clapping programmes, horrible)
Ice cream vans (these should be banned, pure sound pollution)
Groups of two or more women talking (or nagging women)
The washing machine
The Hoover
Neighbours who play music (though this only seems to happen when the weather goes above 25C for some reason. Music in public in general)
note - you don't mention 'loudly' here. Just playing music

Oh, also anybody who talks to me when I'm trying to do something else. It just becomes noise.

It just seems to me that mine is a healthier attitude. I'm not getting stressed out other people having a conversation or domestic appliances or people speaking to me or ice cream vans (which I also love. It's the summer day thing.) etc all those very ordinary sounds which go on around us all the time. I can't do anything about those things any more than I can do anything about birdsong or owls hooting or the wind blowing or thunder crashing or the rain battering on my window - all these sounds are as loud and distracting as the 'noise' of which you complain. What I'm curious about is why one bothers you and the other doesn't, and can you apply what you do in the case of those noises which don't bother you to the ones that do, so you are not 'suffering' unnecessary annoyance. Anyway, here are the articles but if you prefer to expend your energy getting all grumpy instead I guess that's up to you.

The why not is because I shouldn't have to train myself to endure other people's ignorance. I shouldn't have to practise advanced meditation techniques just because my neighbour wants to blast out music at unreasonable levels (if I can hear it then it is unreasonable noise, that's a simple rule of thumb). Yes meditation might work to some degree, but the onus is not on me to correct my attitude to someone else's unreasonable behaviour. This to me is just common sense.

In terms of the wind and the rain and other sounds like that, I like those. I don't find those annoying, I find them quite relaxing. I think it goes back to holidays in my grandparents caravan in Lincolnshire, I used to love the sound of rain on the roof. I also don't get annoyed by birds, maybe pigeons sometimes, but bird sound I can live with no problems.

Of those other sounds I listed - teens/children I have already covered really. This comes down to the unbelievable amount of noise in school (Stluke's it seems also feels this). This is not "normal" noise, the sound of happy children playing hopscotch merrily in the sun, oh no, I'm talking about groups of giddy completely hyperactive teenagers drugged up on fizzy pop shouting at the top of their voices to people sat next to them. Or I'm talking about teens running down corridors screaming like animals - you really have to witness this to believe it. It's just not normal (or scarily so, it seems to be now, but shouldn't be).

TV. The TV is one massive pain full of adverts such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_-9QFvhQWo

Listening to that nonsense is not healthy. It shouldn't be allowed in civilized society. I only watch the odd thing I'm interested in and at other times it goes off. I watch maybe 30 mins of TV a day on average, often less - this programme or that programme, the problem is that Mrs Neely doesn't share my TV thinking. It is not a major problem however because I work around it, I go in the bath for an hour every night and I go to the pub/theatre every Saturday (loads of trash on Saturday). It's not a problem because I've learnt to avoid the stuff that Mrs N watches in such a way. We also have a 'mute all the adverts' policy in our house which also helps.

It's true that the following noises drop down a division from those, but I'll explain anyway.

Ice cream vans. These don't drive me insane like Mr Go Compare and Co (I have another name for him, it starts with go and ends with yourself...) but I do find them annoying. In my opinion there just too many ice cream vans around and you can only listen to 'Frankie Doodle Goes to Town" or whatever over and over again so many times.

Groups of women. God can't they talk? Yabber, yabber. Have you noticed how they don't even let each other finish? It doesn't seem to matter though as they seem to pick off where the other one started using some sort of psychic method unbeknown to man. When the family comes round the women start talking soaps or the X-Factor/skating around on ice, I just don't want to be there. Any sane man feels the same. There's no offense intended.

Hoover/washing machine. I swear to god our last washing machine sounded like a Spitfire. There was something wrong with it but it still washed so we didn't want to folk out for another. When it was on I felt like I was sat in Manchester Airport. Our new one's not so bad, but you still have to make sure the door is closed or you can't speak on the phone or hear what other people are saying in the room. How is this not annoying?

The hoover's not so bad but you can guarantee when I'm just concentrating on something then Mrs N comes around "vvvrooomm, vvvroooming, move your feet" and it can cause irritation, especially when it didn't need doing. The same thing goes for interruptions at particular moments, it's not when anybody ever speaks to me understand, just when I'm trying to focus on something, trying to put a curtain up or something and I'm being put on Mastermind at the same time. It's not what I want.

I'm sure that you feel better out being able to block out annoying things. Maybe you have got a good plan going on and if it works for you then that's good. However, I don't see why we should make excuses for other people's lack of respect or common decency.

[OrphanPip]

While I agree Stlukes is sounding a bit too much like an irritable old man when it comes to music (in Montreal there are no sound restrictions between 9 am and 10 pm), music can be disruptive, but I personally grew up with the sounds of people in the apartments above my head and next door. One just acclimates to ambient noise.

Personally, I hate the sound of velcro.

[Abookinthebath]

What about when you're driving?

The police should be called when I am singing whilst driving! Although I do tend to stop when there are people around....not out of consideration, but because frankly, I would look ridiculous!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I can't help but notice StLukes is in the fortunate position of having perfect taste. He likes classical music, which is hardly disruptive. I guess we should all just learn to like soft, comfortable music only and gain this good taste so we don't have to worry about offending others with good taste. Then everyone wins.

[Emil Miller]

The why not is because I shouldn't have to train myself to endure other people's ignorance. I shouldn't have to practise advanced meditation techniques just because my neighbour wants to blast out music at unreasonable levels (if I can hear it then it is unreasonable noise, that's a simple rule of thumb). Yes meditation might work to some degree, but the onus is not on me to correct my attitude to someone else's unreasonable behaviour. This to me is just common sense.

In terms of the wind and the rain and other sounds like that, I like those. I don't find those annoying, I find them quite relaxing. I think it goes back to holidays in my grandparents caravan in Lincolnshire, I used to love the sound of rain on the roof. I also don't get annoyed by birds, maybe pigeons sometimes, but bird sound I can live with no problems.

Of those other sounds I listed - teens/children I have already covered really. This comes down to the unbelievable amount of noise in school (Stluke's it seems also feels this). This is not "normal" noise, the sound of happy children playing hopscotch merrily in the sun, oh no, I'm talking about groups of giddy completely hyperactive teenagers drugged up on fizzy pop shouting at the top of their voices to people sat next to them. Or I'm talking about teens running down corridors screaming like animals - you really have to witness this to believe it. It's just not normal (or scarily so, it seems to be now, but shouldn't be).

TV. The TV is one massive pain full of adverts such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_-9QFvhQWo

Listening to that nonsense is not healthy. It shouldn't be allowed in civilized society. I only watch the odd thing I'm interested in and at other times it goes off. I watch maybe 30 mins of TV a day on average, often less - this programme or that programme, the problem is that Mrs Neely doesn't share my TV thinking. It is not a major problem however because I work around it, I go in the bath for an hour every night and I go to the pub/theatre every Saturday (loads of trash on Saturday). It's not a problem because I've learnt to avoid the stuff that Mrs N watches in such a way. We also have a 'mute all the adverts' policy in our house which also helps.

It's true that the following noises drop down a division from those, but I'll explain anyway.

Ice cream vans. These don't drive me insane like Mr Go Compare and Co (I have another name for him, it starts with go and ends with yourself...) but I do find them annoying. In my opinion there just too many ice cream vans around and you can only listen to 'Frankie Doodle Goes to Town" or whatever over and over again so many times.

Groups of women. God can't they talk? Yabber, yabber. Have you noticed how they don't even let each other finish? It doesn't seem to matter though as they seem to pick off where the other one started using some sort of psychic method unbeknown to man. When the family comes round the women start talking soaps or the X-Factor/skating around on ice, I just don't want to be there. Any sane man feels the same. There's no offense intended.

Hoover/washing machine. I swear to god our last washing machine sounded like a Spitfire. There was something wrong with it but it still washed so we didn't want to folk out for another. When it was on I felt like I was sat in Manchester Airport. Our new one's not so bad, but you still have to make sure the door is closed or you can't speak on the phone or hear what other people are saying in the room. How is this not annoying?

The hoover's not so bad but you can guarantee when I'm just concentrating on something then Mrs N comes around "vvvrooomm, vvvroooming, move your feet" and it can cause irritation, especially when it didn't need doing. The same thing goes for interruptions at particular moments, it's not when anybody ever speaks to me understand, just when I'm trying to focus on something, trying to put a curtain up or something and I'm being put on Mastermind at the same time. It's not what I want.

I'm sure that you feel better out being able to block out annoying things. Maybe you have got a good plan going on and if it works for you then that's good. However, I don't see why we should make excuses for other people's lack of respect or common decency.

I have to agree with what you say about the advert but it seems to be a parody on Enrico Caruso who actually recorded it in 1918. There should be a law against it.

http://youtu.be/zTMbDwsA86E

Now with regard to the tribulations concerning Mrs N. perhaps things might have worked out differently if you had seen this at an earlier date. It does seem to tie in with what you have written.

http://youtu.be/wefP_aEl6_I

I also agree about pigeons being a pest but there is a colony of crows that nest near where I live and I would shoot them if it were possible as they are unbelievably noisy.

[Vonny]

I can't help but notice StLukes is in the fortunate position of having perfect taste. He likes classical music, which is hardly disruptive. I guess we should all just learn to like soft, comfortable music only and gain this good taste so we don't have to worry about offending others with good taste. Then everyone wins.

No Mutatis, you wouldn't be you without your metal and partial deafness! We wouldn't want you any other way!

[NikolaiI]

I love this thread, and what a successful one, too! 4 pages in only 3 days.

I'm with you Emil on the distracting sounds. The most annoying one for me is someone who is in the library near by who is constantly sniffling - not sure what the right term for it is - inhaling sharply when they have the sniffles. I can't stand it. I don't burp every time I get to the end of a line, do I? It's terribly distracting to me and I wish they would stay at home if they're sick. I'm actually very tempted to say that to them, they shouldn't be spreading their germs around anyway if they're sick! If you're not well enough to sit and breathe quietly, just wait for another day to study at the library. I'm reminded of Fischer, and a comment he made about someone who supposedly wasn't even making that much of a noise, something like; "Would you please get that man out of here! He belongs in a hospital, not a chess tournament!"

I feel like saying something like that to these people. Like writing them a note that says "Wash your hands, go home and drink plenty of fluids, and don't come back until you're well!" I know I probably never will, though.

Another thing is I can't fall asleep if I can hear music coming from the downstairs apartment. Unless I've been awake for 24 hours or am otherwise very tired, I simply can't fall asleep for some reason.

But there are other noises which don't bother me much at all. Bodily like constant loud sniffling only bother me in a place that's supposed to be silent, and where it is the only noise. Otherwise, I can't think of any sound or noise that bothers me, people breathing or cracking knuckles or anything else I can think of never gets on my nerves. Talking will usually keep me from being able to pay attention very well if I'm reading a book, if it's one conversation nearby, because my mind will wander to the conversation. But in any public place or crowd, I can easily tune it all out and read relaxed, probably because of training myself to be able to, as it bothered me I couldn't.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Now with regard to the tribulations concerning Mrs N. perhaps things might have worked out differently if you had seen this at an earlier date. It does seem to tie in with what you have written.

http://youtu.be/wefP_aEl6_I

Oh that was brilliant, I've never seen it, I laughed all the way through.


I'm with you Emil on the distracting sounds. The most annoying one for me is someone who is in the library near by who is constantly sniffling - not sure what the right term for it is - inhaling sharply when they have the sniffles. I can't stand it. I don't burp every time I get to the end of a line, do I? It's terribly distracting to me and I wish they would stay at home if they're sick.

Ah but just check if they are allergic to dust first, as this is more or less what happens to me in a dusty library, that and running eyes, not all the time be every other time perhaps. Thank god for the kindle!

[MystyrMystyry]

I'm not certain you really understand what noise is - not lawnmowers, not Harley Davidsons, not Airports, not reversing trucks, neither music nor 'music' nor music nor MUSIC - it's children on school holidays with a basketball and two dogs at 5 AM!!!

THAT'S NOISE!

[stlukesguild]

I can't help but notice StLukes is in the fortunate position of having perfect taste. He likes classical music, which is hardly disruptive. I guess we should all just learn to like soft, comfortable music only and gain this good taste so we don't have to worry about offending others with good taste. Then everyone wins.

I also like my Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Miles Davis, Johnny Cash, Louvin Brothers, and Rolling Stones... and I may crank them up when I'm on the interstate... but not when I'm driving through the residential neighborhoods. Nor do I play any of this music so loud that it can be heard outside my home. When I lived in an apartment I played the music even lower or listened through headphones. I still do that now as half of the time I am listening to music until 2 in the morning (I rarely sleep more than 5 hours) and my wife goes to bed well before me most of the time.

I'm not certain you really understand what noise is - not lawnmowers, not Harley Davidsons, not Airports, not reversing trucks, neither music nor 'music' nor music nor MUSIC - it's children on school holidays with a basketball and two dogs at 5 AM!!!

THAT'S NOISE!

You forget that Neely and I both work in urban public schools. Trust me... we know what noise is.:(

[OrphanPip]

I used to work in an exotic animal hospital, you don't know noise until you've been in a room with 20 large parrots and cockatoos all simultaneously screaming their heads off, they can reach volumes and pitches children can only imagine.

Edit: The dog kennels at the SPCA used to be pretty exhausting too, but we only had to endure that for short periods.

[JuniperWoolf]

IWho decides what is within reason? Ultimately it comes down to whether your noise bothers enough people that they report it to the authorities or take legal action.

Exactly, and I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the law (http://www.edmonton.ca/bylaws_licences/bylaws/noise.aspx) is on my side (just click on the link at the start of the first paragraph that says "Community Standards Bylaw," it wouldn't let me link the pdf directly for some reason). In section 19 it states that if the noise is recorded at 65dB or less at the border of the individual's property between 7am and 10pm(which is about the sound of a regular conversation, so if you were on the border of their property you would hear their music at about the same level as if you were standing a meter away from someone who's talking), then they're within their legal rights and if you're annoyed then that's too bad, because enough people have agreed over time to permit that level of sound between those hours and so it has become a law. A small number of grumpy people might still object to the 65dB noise level, and no one else really cares because I believe it's assumed that those people are just miserable and like to complain (and that's not what I'm calling you, it's just what many people would be thinking if they heard someone nagging about "those damn kids and their rap music"). Call the cops at 2pm on a Thursday and report the people across the street for listening to music while they play street hockey, see how far you get.

If they're only playing their music for two hours, they're allowed to go up to 70dB. If only one hour then 75dB, if a half hour then 80dB and if they're only listening to music for fifteen minutes then they're allowed to go up to 85dB and they're within their rights to do so. Please note (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm) that 130dB is the level at which sound becomes painful.


Perhaps when you own the property yourself you will discover that you most certainly are not free to do whatever you wish with that property. Properties are zoned stipulating what uses they may or may not be put to use for.

We have a few stupid laws in Alberta that no one pays attention to. You're not allowed to have more than three flower beds or something like that, but no one enforces them and so the laws might as well not exist. You assume that my opinions stem from my youth (which, to you, seems to equal stupidity). I assure you, it’s not just twenty-three year olds that agree with me. When that man that I was talking about earlier decided to put rocks all over his yard (and believe me, it's hideous - maybe I'll take a picture of it on my way home tomorrow), the town was split between the very vocal complainers who wanted him to be evicted, and the rest of us who thought that he should be allowed to do what he wants because the alternative (giving in to a bunch of whiney busybodies) is nauseating. The people who were against evicting the man or forcing him to clean up his yard were many of them homeowners, and the majority of town council. It was one of those big public issues for a little while (we seem to have those fairly often - once the issue of whether pit bulls should be banned filled a 200 person auditorium). In the end, the side against excessive legal regulation won and he still has that ugly lawn to this day. I don’t believe that my example is invalidated because of the remoteness and size of my town. As with most issues, I see my small community as a microcosm of larger cities, where similar battles occur daily. Our issues are the same, they just occur on a small enough scale to follow.

I think you're overblowing laws that aren’t taken seriously by most people (who don't live in American gated communities) because you overestimate your opinion of "good taste."


... but the possibilities are still limited to that which meets the community standards.

Not to the degree that you're claiming. Then again, I do live in Alberta, which has been described as "closely bordering on libertarianism," so maybe things really are different here than in whatever state you hail from. Still, we get along just fine even if it is different here (we certainly haven't gone poor because of the occasional ugly house).

If we harp on about property regulations too much, we might get the thread closed for going off topic.


A stereo blasting from a car stereo across the street results in something more than just a whisper.

No, it's around the sound level of a regular conversation like it says in the chart that I provided earlier in this post. They're allowed to play their stereo according to my capitol city's bylaw. Your city must have it's own noise ordinance bylaws, and I'm guessing that they're pretty close to those of Edmonton (or indeed, of Montreal which has no sound level restrictions between certain hours) because noise tolerance is on average the same for all humans. There are small variations of course, but the key word is “average," so the issue then becomes, "why do some people feel such a strong sense of entitlement to silence within the boarders of cities, which have never been silent?"


Again you completely avoid the issue of simple respect for others around you.

You seriously think that people are playing their music just to disrespect you? They aren't even thinking about you, they're following the rules of their community and playing music because they like it. I can't believe that we're discussing whether someone should be allowed to make noise during the day, I would have thought that was rather a no-brainer.


Ah... but it's not rude, disrespectful, and disruptive to blast your stereo outside so that it bothers the neighbors, or to hold loud conversations on the cell phone in restaurants or doctor's offices? What we are speaking of hear is unnecessary noise. Lawnmowers may be an irritant... but we have to cut the grass. Traffic sounds may be bothersome... but there is a difference between this and the teen revving up his engine simply to draw attention to himself, and then roaring up and down the street repeatedly... or the unnecessary sound of a blasting stereo.

But what about enjoyment? Recreation is "necessary." Dancing is fun, playing music while you sunbathe, play sports or do outdoor chores is very pleasant to some people. Cities tend to have a bunch of very differently-minded people all packed in to one small area, and I imagine it's a very difficult job to try to please everyone, but I think that the bylaw standards are pretty even on both sides in regards to noise. People can play music, but there's a limit on when they can do so and how loud they can be. That seems fair, but you would rather them not play music at all, or to somehow use headphones when they're working or playing outside, because it bothers you. That's unreasonable.

[Vonny]

I used to work in an exotic animal hospital, you don't know noise until you've been in a room with 20 large parrots and cockatoos all simultaneously screaming their heads off, they can reach volumes and pitches children can only imagine.

Edit: The dog kennels at the SPCA used to be pretty exhausting too, but we only had to endure that for short periods.

Absolutely. I've heard what you describe. A barking dog gets to me as well. My brothers have dogs and I love them, but I have a cat. I love to hear my cat purr - one of my favorite sounds.

[stlukesguild]

I used to have lunch duty. Nothing like 150 or 200 children in a cinder-block auditorium almost designed intentionally to amplify ever sound all screaming at the top of their lungs and throwing food. We had to walk about with bull-horns in order to be heard.:shocked::willy_nilly:

[Vonny]

I used to have lunch duty. Nothing like 150 or 200 children in a cinder-block auditorium almost designed intentionally to amplify ever sound all screaming at the top of their lungs and throwing food. We had to walk about with bull-horns in order to be heard.:shocked::willy_nilly:

Instead of the bull-horn, Proverbs 23:13

Withhold not correction from the child.....

[stlukesguild]

Exactly, and I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the law is on my side (just click on the link at the start of the first paragraph that says "Community Standards Bylaw," it wouldn't let me link the pdf directly for some reason). In section 19 it states that if the noise is recorded at 65dB (which is about the sound of a regular conversation) or less at the border of the individual's property between 7am and 10pm, then they're within their legal rights and if you're annoyed then that's too bad, because enough people have agreed over time to permit that level of sound between those hours and so it has become a law. A small number of grumpy people might still object to the 65dB noise level, and no one else really cares because I believe it's assumed that those people are just miserable and like to complain. Call the cops at 2pm on a Thursday and report the people across the street for listening to music while they play street hockey, see how far you get.

No one is talking about 65 decibels or the volume of normal conversation at the edge of your property. I would probably need to be a room facing the stereo with my windows open to even begin to hear such. No... I am talking about volume that carries through the walls and can be clearly heard for houses away... often accompanied by a bass intended to disrupt and vibrate throughout the neighborhood. having a huge stereo system with booming sub-woofers is a status symbol among many younger car owners... especially in the inner city. Car audio specialists market directly to them. Pioneer marketed "boom car" stereo systems under tagline: "DISTURB, IGNITE, DEFY, and DISRUPT". Sony trademarked the phrase, "Disturb the Peace". Pyle Driver employed as ad showing a boom car next to a demolished house. The average "boom car" stereo produces 120-140 decibels. 120 dB is the sound experienced when standing behind a Boeing 707 while it is in full thrust, just before takeoff. Hearing loss can occur after just 7.5 minutes.

A few other interesting facts concerning noise:

Noise over 70 dB Increases the risk of heart attack by 20%

Noise over 90 dB As this intense sound bombards the body,the adrenaline reaction is so powerful that people become openly hostile and belligerent.

The 1999 report from the U.S. Census Bureau, stated that noise is America’s number one complaint about their neighborhoods. It is also the number one reason for individuals moving to another location. Noise levels have increased 6 fold in major U.S. cities in the last 15 years.

http://www.lowertheboom.org/trice/BoomCarNoise.pdf

I assure you that the police will certainly cite you for loud music. When I first moved into my current neighborhood the teenagers across the street began playing booming music in the summer. Several neighbors called the police, and one confronted the teens after they were blasting their profanity-laden music in a neighborhood filled with younger children. The police cited the teens and appropriately their mother went ballistic on them when she was called by the police. We have had no such problems since... outside the occasional boom car driving through.

As with most issues, I see my small community as a microcosm of larger cities, where similar battles occur daily. Our issues are the same, they just occur on a small enough scale to follow. I think you're overblowing laws that aren’t taken seriously by most people (who don't live in American gated communities) because you overestimate your opinion of "good taste."

Noise in the cities are a far greater problem... and it all comes down to wealth and class. The big cities are often strapped for cash and busy dealing with larger issues of crime, drugs, gangs, violence, etc... As a result, the poor are faced having to live with noise, garbage, run-down homes, and even gangs because there are a lot of people who have little respect or concern for others. Those who have the financial wherewithal are able to leave and move to communities that enforce higher standards. Laws concerning noise are most certainly enforced in a great majority of residential communities. Again, it has nothing to do with "good taste". It has to do with maintaining the peace, property values, and respect for all by those unable to grasp the concept.

You seriously think that people are playing their music just to disrespect you? They aren't even thinking about you...

BINGO!!! They aren't considering how their behavior affects anyone around them. The inability to consider (or care) how your behavior affects others around you would seem to be a good definition of "disrespect". On the other hand, I suspect you underestimate just how often such behavior IS intentional. Blasting the stereo on the porch loud enough so that all the neighbors can hear or cranking up the speakers in your car as you drive through a residential neighborhood is quite likely a juvenile attempt at gaining attention and thumbing your nose at rules and expectations.

But what about enjoyment? Recreation is "necessary." Dancing is fun, playing music while you sunbathe, play sports or do outdoor chores is very pleasant to some people. Cities tend to have a bunch of very differently-minded people all packed in to one small area, and I imagine it's a very difficult job to try to please everyone, but I think that the bylaw standards are pretty even on both sides in regards to noise. People can play music, but there's a limit on when they can do so and how loud they can be. That seems fair, but you would rather them not play music at all, or to somehow use headphones when they're working or playing outside, because it bothers you. That's unreasonable.

The US Declaration of Independence claims that all humans have the rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"... but there is no guarantee of happiness, nor does the Constitution guarantee as much. Indeed, most laws make clear that the individual's right to pursue whatever makes him or her happy does not supersede the rights and standards of the larger community.

Instead of the bull-horn, Proverbs 23:13

Withhold not correction from the child.....

Unfortunately, they did away with "rods" in school long ago.:goof:

[Vonny]

Instead of the bull-horn, Proverbs 23:13

Withhold not correction from the child.....

Unfortunately, they did away with "rods" in school long ago.:goof:


yeah, I was speaking hypothetically.

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE=stlukesguild;1083968Unfortunately, they did away with "rods" in school long ago.:goof:[/QUOTE]

Hence some of the spoiled children we come into contact with daily.

No names no pack drill.

[Vonny]

Hence some of the spoiled children we come into contact with daily.

No names no pack drill.

And then spoiled children grow into spoiled adults who don't know how to converse and laugh normally in a restaurant.

It isn't even necessary to correct all of the children, because they learn from each other. You only need to correct a few. In my family, I was never corrected, but the thought of throwing food or screaming at the table would have never entered my mind - by the time I saw other kids do it, I was just puzzled by it. It would have been like taking food from a garbage can and eating it - I knew not to do it.

And discipline was way overdone on my brothers, but I say, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Another thing I'm thinking is, we don't "chat," my friends, family and I - we talk.

[Abookinthebath]

And then spoiled children grow into spoiled adults who don't know how to converse and laugh normally in a restaurant.

Ah yes, the people who think that the restaurant is just for them!! I also especially detest the parents who feel they have to speak especially loudly to their children when asking them to do something - like it makes them a better parent...



Reading through this thread though, there is an awful lot of aversion to what I would call 'necessary' noise....Roadworks, construction, kids playing, dogs barking when out for a walk (and I'll include myself, lawnmowers!).

And, emergency vehicles. Believe me, people barely notice you when the sirens are blaring (probably because of the loud music in their cars, incidentally!). We certainly don't use them just to make 'noise' - in fact we avoid using them if we can as they are so loud in the cab when they are on.

I think there is a lot to be said for a decent pair of noise cancelling headphones!

[NikolaiI]

I think there is a lot to be said for a decent pair of noise cancelling headphones!

Or just ear plugs!

[JuniperWoolf]

:rolleyes5: You guys are way too grumpy and intolerant. Just ignore it, like everyone else!

[NikolaiI]

Oh -

I wasn't exactly agreeing with them, just replying to the specific part about noise cancelling headphones. I work in a very loud environment and pretty much have to use ear plugs. I've never worn them before this job, but actually they aren't too uncomfortable and work well. A lot cheaper than special headphones, too.

[papayahed]

Or just ear plugs!


Ya, these are the way to go:

http://www.allsafetyproducts.com/images/categories/earbands.jpg

[Abookinthebath]

Or just ear plugs!

Works for me when the boys are snoring in the billets!!

[Emil Miller]

Given the amount of noise that humans are subjected to, it would have been helpful if they were born with a volume control at the side of their ears.
Were that to be the case, mine would be switched off for at least 75% of the time so that all those exhibitionist noise makers would be permanently frozen out.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

:rolleyes5: You guys are way too grumpy and intolerant. Just ignore it, like everyone else!

:iagree:

[LitNetIsGreat]

The more we ignore ignorant behaviour the more that ignorant behaviour grows. It becomes the norm. Why don't we just start ignoring other types of anti-social behaviour by that standard? Let's just ignore it all - vandalism, graffiti, mugging old women = self expression, turn the other cheek.

On the noise front I've had a couple of mostly quiet days or at least a few long periods of peace and I can absolutely feel the difference in my own well-being because of it. I fear that blessed quiet is going to come crashing down from today onwards though, especially next week when the nightmare of work continues. It can't be helped for now though.

[Emil Miller]

The more we ignore ignorant behaviour the more that ignorant behaviour grows. It becomes the norm. Why don't we just start ignoring other types of anti-social behaviour by that standard? Let's just ignore it all - vandalism, graffiti, mugging old women = self expression, turn the other cheek.

Anti-social behaviour is the product of liberalism, and a liberal will keep turning the other cheek until your head falls off.

[Vonny]

Anti-social behaviour is the product of liberalism, and a liberal will keep turning the other cheek until your head falls off.

No, no. People who like quiet are grumpy and intolerant, not to mention anti-social. Don't think that cheeks will simply turn and leave you alone.

People who want to force noise, however, are cool and open-minded. They are the consensus builders.


JuniperWoolf: Yep, everyone who disagrees with you is fourteen. We’re all so young and stupid! Help us, teach us!

Mature people and teachers, they think they know a lot, but they have a lot to learn.


Stlukesguild: One of the teens, a true "rocket scientist" in intellect smugly asked, "What are you gonna do? Shoot us all?" which is exactly what the fireman proceeded to do... killing 3. There were jokes in the community concerning the moron kid who asked the provocative question suggesting that killing him was only the right thing to do... effectively ending a gene pool of less than stellar intellect.

My area is conservative - noisy people don't move in. If they do, it isn't long before they are moving on. There isn't any debate, they just don't feel very comfortable.

[Emil Miller]

My area is conservative - noisy people don't move in. If they do, it isn't long before they are moving on. There isn't any debate, they just don't feel very comfortable.

Agreed. To people who say that others should tolerate their noise, my answer is zero tolerance.

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Off-topic and/or inflammatory posts will be removed without further notice.

~

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Anti-social behaviour is the product of liberalism, and a liberal will keep turning the other cheek until your head falls off.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks, Emil. Needed a laugh.

[Vonny]

Very interesting, what Wikipedia says . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_from_noise


It even causes changes in the immune system and birth defects

and is a threat to marine and terrestrial ecosystems

One in five Europeans is regularly exposed to sound levels at night that could significantly damage health.

[papayahed]

I will remind you guys once again:


~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Off-topic and/or inflammatory posts will be removed without further notice.

[Vonny]

Life evolved on our planet without being subjected to the constant, extreme and unnatural forms of noise that we have today. That evolution includes humans.

If extreme noise stresses an unborn baby, do we just tell it to ignore it and stop being grumpy? If a child is born with ADHD, we just give them drugs and talk about how great and exciting modern society is.

What about whales who can no longer locate or communicate with other whales, because they can no longer hear or interpret the others' calls.

And then the question becomes, "What whales?"

"Whales went extinct, but who cares about whales? Who needs whales? We have tv, we've got everything we need."

[TurquoiseSunset]

Seen on FB: My neighbours listen to some excellent music, whether they like it or not. :D

[MarkBastable]

Anti-social behaviour is the product of liberalism, and a liberal will keep turning the other cheek until your head falls off.

So there was no anti-social behaviour before, say, 1968?

And, just out of idle interest, is there anything you disapprove of that isn't the product of liberalism?

[Emil Miller]

Seen on FB: My neighbours listen to some excellent music, whether they like it or not. :D

This should be followed by another stating: Those neighbours have just been destroyed by a RPG.

[Emil Miller]

So there was no anti-social behaviour before, say, 1968?

And, just out of idle interest, is there anything you disapprove of that isn't the product of liberalism?


Yep there has always been anti-social behaviour, it's a matter of degree.

Nope most of the things I disapprove of are the product of liberalism except for natural disasters, disease and other such obvious misfortunes attendant on the human condition.
There is, however, another thing I disapprove of and that is members who continually post with no other intention than trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to be facetious: as witness your recent reply to the thread... 'Three Word Description of Yourself'.
"1. Facetious
2. Facetious
3. Facetious"

Or, if not being facetious, then rudely sarcastic as in this recent reply to one of your posts in another thread:

'Getting snarky comments directed at you from MarkBastable is hardly a rare event.'

There is a difference in making remarks that are obviously intended to be amusing and those whose contrariness is intended to annoy.


__________________

[MarkBastable]

I think you're upset because you don't know what 'infinitesimal' means.

[Emil Miller]

I think you're upset because you don't know what 'infinitesimal' means.

Why should I be? After all:

'Getting snarky comments directed at you from MarkBastable is hardly a rare event.' :nod:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Just for a lark, I'll open this can of worms.

How is anti-social behavior a product of liberalism?

[MystyrMystyry]

Liberals believe that loony bins should be shut down and the loonies allowed to run free, A lot of those loonies are very anti-social. The trouble is that conservatives also think that loony bins should be closed down (though because they'd rather the money spent on something they can claim to be their personal life-fulfilling monument to themselves).

Liberals believe that extreme criminals shouldn't be punished severely because there's no proof they'll do it again.

Conservatives believe that the cost of keeping a prisoner is too expensive and doesn't generate taxes for their monument, so maybe if they're released early they'll find gainful employment and contribute to the coffers?

Either way the anti-social element is allowed to run free.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Conservatives believe that the cost of keeping a prisoner is too expensive and doesn't generate taxes for their monument, so maybe if they're released early they'll find gainful employment and contribute to the coffers?

Conservatives are in eternal conflict about the over-crowding problem in prisons, I think (in America, at least), as they hate spending the money on the prisoners, but they don't want them released, either.

[Scheherazade]

~

Since two reminders were not enough to keep this discussion on track and stop personalised discussions, this thread will now be closed.

~